0:15

Pushkin Hi,

0:21

Emilia, and

0:24

I'm going I have

0:26

a question for you man not alive.

0:29

She's said it, and I'm eight and

0:32

I like sex and she does not.

0:37

I have a good friend in his eighties, and

0:40

honestly, he's maybe the most sexual

0:42

person I know. But it is

0:44

true that what sexual looks like for him

0:46

in his eighties is different from how

0:48

he looked earlier in his life. But I think it's

0:51

different in ways you might not expect. I'm

0:57

Emilinagaski and this is

1:00

the Come as you Are podcast where

1:02

I answer questions about sex with

1:04

science. In this

1:07

episode, we're going to be talking about

1:09

out sex in long term relationships.

1:11

I'm writing my next book on this, so it

1:13

is always on my mind.

1:16

Plus I have come across so much interesting

1:18

research. So here's

1:21

my producer, mo Hi mo Hi,

1:24

Emilie. We've had

1:26

such a great season and I can't believe

1:28

it's already coming to an end. I

1:31

feel like these episodes have been an

1:33

updated like Sex Said, what a one course

1:36

for everyone like me who didn't get

1:38

the Sex said they deserved absolutely,

1:41

and people could listen to it while

1:43

they were folding laundry or commuting

1:45

to work. Among the many reasons. I love

1:47

podcasts. Yes, now

1:49

this question today, Okay. I

1:52

immediately thought that we needed to answer this

1:54

on the show because I know you're writing a

1:56

book about sex in long term relationships.

1:59

Yeah, there are so many

2:01

stereotypes too, and so many questions

2:04

about sex and aging. The New York Times

2:06

this year did a story on sex

2:08

and aging and there were like some photographs

2:10

of people in situations and on

2:13

Instagram. The comments half of them were

2:15

like, this is so great for them, and the other half

2:17

were like, uh, get this off my feed

2:19

sterilize my eyeballs. So I

2:21

love addressing a topic that carries

2:23

this kind of taboo, even though

2:26

it's a topic that a lot of us would love

2:28

to live long enough to have it apply to

2:30

us. Totally. Lucky him

2:32

that he is thinking about this and wanting

2:35

to improve his sex life at eighty. That

2:37

is incredible. So why

2:40

did you choose the topic of sex and long term

2:42

relationships for your next book? It's

2:45

based on a true story. Tell

2:48

me. It took me about a year and a half to write Come

2:50

as You Are, which is a book that

2:52

is all about the science of women's sexual well

2:54

being. So I was thinking and writing and reading

2:56

about sex all day, every

2:59

day, And ironically, after

3:01

all that time thinking about sex,

3:04

I had zero interest in actually

3:06

having any sex. As

3:09

you know, I am married to somebody, and

3:11

that's somebody because of me. Went

3:14

months with nothing from

3:16

me, and then the book was published,

3:18

and I traveled all over the country talking

3:21

to anyone who would listen about the science

3:23

of sex. And when I got back from those trips,

3:26

i'd be so tired that we'd try

3:28

to get in bed together and I would just cry

3:31

and fall asleep. So

3:33

there were more months of nothing

3:36

right, and I missed

3:39

the sex. I missed my partner, and I

3:41

missed the part of myself that

3:43

plays in the erotic realm. Like I

3:45

have always imagined myself having

3:48

an erotic connection that develops and

3:50

grows with a certain special someone far

3:52

into our old age. I want us

3:55

to be giggling and licking

3:57

and snuggling until we're ninety five, if we're lucky

3:59

enough to live that long. So here

4:02

I was sixty years ahead of schedule

4:05

already losing that,

4:08

and I was was pretty shocking. But

4:12

I had spent all that time reading a lot of science

4:14

about sexuality, so there were some things

4:16

I knew about sex and a long

4:18

term relationship that helped

4:21

us find our way back

4:23

to each other. But it

4:26

wasn't stuff I was finding in other books. So

4:28

this new book is the book that I

4:30

wanted to read in twenty fourteen, twenty

4:33

fifteen. It's the science that helped us stay connected

4:35

even through twenty sixteen

4:37

and twenty seventeen. And then oh gosh,

4:39

here's a global pandemic. Right, So this

4:42

is the science I couldn't find another books,

4:44

but that I knew because I

4:47

was reading the science and because

4:49

I was putting it to work in my own relationship.

4:52

It seems like you are perfectly equipped

4:54

to answer today's question. So are

4:56

you ready to hear the whole

4:58

thing? So ready? My

5:02

name is archer Man. Not alive, she

5:05

said in it five and

5:06

I and I'll like shick

5:09

and she does not. I

5:11

take all natural to help

5:14

me to get my

5:16

potential. So

5:19

why is it she don't like to

5:21

have relations with me when

5:24

we can? Are

5:27

you supposed to have sex when you get that old?

5:29

What I'm saying if you want it, I

5:31

do want it. I love to

5:33

have it, and so I

5:36

just want to nip. There's sometimes a rule

5:38

on that. So

5:41

that's all I asked him by

5:43

now and have a good day.

5:49

I love Arthur so much. On

5:51

a certain level, it's really heartbreaking to hear

5:53

like the loneliness and isolation. Why doesn't

5:55

my wife like having sex with me?

5:58

And also I feel really optimistic

6:00

and hopeful about it, because if

6:03

he's willing to ask

6:05

the question out loud, that

6:08

suggests to me that they

6:10

might be able to answer the question together. You

6:13

were saying that you have been researching

6:15

and reading all about on long term sexual

6:18

relationships. Can you explain

6:20

to us what science that we might need to

6:22

know in order to answer this question. Yes,

6:25

I would love nothing more. It's

6:28

one of my favorite things to talk about, so

6:31

to begin with, of course, there are no rules.

6:33

That's what Arthur is asking, and if he has

6:35

listened to the rest of the series, he will know that

6:37

by now. And I would point out that

6:39

Arthur doesn't actually tell us how long he

6:41

and his wife have been together. Maybe they

6:44

have been together for fifty years, or maybe

6:46

they just met and got married five or ten years ago

6:48

or less. We don't know. I

6:50

was wondering before we get too far into

6:52

this answer, like, how do you define

6:54

a long term relationship? Oh, that's

6:56

a really great question. Yeah, what

6:59

counts is long term. For

7:01

me, it's any relationship that has lasted

7:03

long enough for things to change. So

7:06

you look back and you're like, wow, things have really changed

7:08

since we first got together, and maybe

7:10

that's three months, or maybe

7:12

it's ten years. I

7:14

love that definition because I

7:17

have been with my girlfriend for three years, but

7:19

we've got together in twenty nineteen, and it

7:21

feels like we are so close.

7:25

And you know, this is explaining to

7:27

me the phenomenon of the pandemic couple

7:29

basically having a really

7:31

intense connection. Yeah, it's a phenomenon

7:34

in social psychology that people who

7:36

have to solve a problem that they can only solve

7:38

by solving it together naturally

7:41

bond in a really deep way. But

7:43

regardless of how long people have been

7:45

together, regardless of their age or

7:47

their health status, regardless of

7:49

their genders or any other characteristic

7:51

of their identities or relationship structure.

7:54

What the research shows me is

7:57

that couples who sustain a

7:59

strong sexual connection over many years

8:02

have two things in common. First,

8:05

they are friends who trust and admire

8:08

each other, and second,

8:10

they prioritize sex.

8:13

They decide that it matters for

8:15

their relationship and they're shared lives,

8:18

that they close

8:20

the door on all the other things they could be

8:22

doing, right, like they maybe they've got kids to raise,

8:24

or work to go to, or letters to their representatives

8:27

to write, other friends

8:29

or in family to spend time with. Maybe

8:31

they want to sleep. God forbid, we

8:34

are busy, right, But these

8:37

folks who sustain a strong sexual connection

8:39

over the long term stop

8:42

everything else and just turn

8:44

toward each other's erotic selves.

8:48

And my question is, why

8:51

would anyone do that? Why

8:55

stop all the other really important things in our

8:57

lives and do this, let's

8:59

face it, pretty silly thing that

9:02

humans do. So I have

9:04

actually asked people what is it that you

9:06

like when you like sex? And what is it

9:08

that you want when you want sex with

9:11

a partner? And the first thing

9:13

people say is connection.

9:17

We want and like and long

9:19

for the vulnerability

9:22

and authenticity and co presence

9:25

with another person that sex

9:27

can bring. And I hear that so

9:29

powerfully in Arthur's question. And

9:31

the second thing that people say they want

9:34

and like about sex with a partner, I

9:36

mean, I bet you could guess this. The

9:38

second thing people say, after connection, they

9:41

want pleasure. But

9:43

let's think through how this wanting

9:46

and longing for connection and pleasure

9:49

actually plays out for

9:51

a couple like this, a couple with a desire

9:53

differential. Let's

9:57

imagine Arthur and his wife in

10:00

a sex therapist office. Picture

10:02

of them. They're They're sitting on a

10:04

couch, probably at opposite ends of the couch. I

10:07

want us to give them the A

10:09

real sex therapist and researcher,

10:12

doctor Peggy Klein Plots, who is

10:14

the leader of the Optimal Sexual

10:17

Experiences Research Group in

10:19

Canada. I'm a gigantic

10:21

fan. Her book is called Magnificent Sex.

10:24

Please everyone read it. It will change your

10:26

life. She studies people who

10:28

have extraordinary sex

10:30

lives to find out what

10:33

they can teach couples

10:35

like Arthur and his wife. So

10:38

there they are sitting in her office, and

10:42

Arthur's wife might say something like, I

10:44

know he wants to have sex, but I'd

10:47

be happy if we never had sex

10:49

again in my life. I'm sorry, that's just how it is. Peggy's

10:52

response would be, tell me

10:55

more about the sex you don't want.

10:58

As Arthur says, he likes it

11:00

and his wife doesn't like it, so

11:02

probably the sex

11:04

that Arthur's wife will describe might not be very

11:07

pleasurable. Maybe she

11:09

spent a lot of years feeling sex was

11:11

something she needed to do out of obligation, or

11:15

something that she did

11:17

because he wanted it and not because

11:19

she wanted or liked it.

11:21

Maybe it's even painful, maybe it's

11:23

boring. Whatever the case,

11:26

what we often find is that a difficulty

11:29

like this with desire is not actually

11:32

because a person doesn't want sex

11:34

exactly. The problem is they don't like

11:37

the sex that's available. The

11:40

way Peggy says it is sometimes low

11:42

desire is evidence of good judgment, and

11:45

my way of saying it, the thing I say over and over

11:47

is that pleasure is the measure of

11:49

sexual well being. So, as Peggy describes

11:52

her interactions with couples like this in the past,

11:54

she has said things like, well, I rather

11:56

like sex, but if I were having that sex,

11:59

I wouldn't want it either. And so her

12:01

next question to clients is what

12:03

kind of sex is worth wanting?

12:06

The couples who sustain a strong sexual connection

12:08

of the long term have sex

12:11

worth wanting. And

12:14

when I say wanting, this is the essential

12:16

caveat. I'm not talking about spontaneous

12:18

desire. Remember back from the Spontaneous

12:20

Desire episode, These couples have

12:22

sex, not because they're so horny they can't

12:24

help themselves, but because they feel

12:27

that it does good things for their

12:29

relationship and for their shared lives and

12:31

for their individual spirits, that they

12:33

not do all the other things that are so important

12:36

in our lives and they just spend this time

12:38

with each other. I love

12:41

that you started answering this question talking

12:43

about basically their relationship and

12:45

their emotional selves. So,

12:47

if we're going to talk about long term relationships,

12:50

I think one of those questions

12:52

that comes up all the time for people in long

12:54

term relationships is the

12:57

question of frequency, like

12:59

are we doing it enough? Or is

13:01

our relationship at risk if we

13:03

haven't had sex in X period

13:05

of time however long that is. And

13:08

there is so much cultural messaging around

13:10

what's enough sex in a long term

13:13

relationship? What regular sex quote

13:15

unquote should look like in a long term relationship.

13:18

Yeah, and you know what the answer is going to be, because you

13:20

use that word should stop

13:23

shooting on ourselves. And

13:26

I do I get this question all the time. How often are

13:28

people supposed to have sex? Or how often

13:30

do couples have sex according

13:33

to science? People definitely

13:35

want that answer, but the science answer,

13:37

it's not going to help you, and sometimes

13:40

the science answer can do harm. Right,

13:42

So how do science get this answer? We

13:45

ask a thousand couples

13:48

how frequently do you have sex? And then we

13:50

add their answers together and divide it by the number

13:52

of couples, and there we have the average frequency

13:55

of couples in long term relationships. So

13:58

you hear that number and you

14:00

can't not compare yourself

14:02

to that number and judge

14:05

yourself as doing it right or doing

14:07

it wrong, like few, we're better than those people,

14:09

or oh no, there must be something wrong. But

14:13

in reality, what in the

14:15

world do those people who participated

14:17

in their research have

14:20

to do with you and your sex life? Nothing?

14:24

Right? You don't know those people. Those people

14:26

don't know your life, So

14:28

I don't actually give the answer to the question

14:31

how often does the average couple have

14:33

sex? Because it's you can't hear

14:35

it and not use it against yourself

14:38

as a way to decide that you're

14:40

not normal. Like if you have

14:42

sex more often than those people, than you're normal

14:44

and you feel a certain way about that, and if you have sex

14:46

less off and you feel a different way, and it's a reflex

14:49

like you cannot help it. But again, the

14:52

sexual frequency of all those other couples

14:55

has nothing to do with you

14:57

and your relationship and this season in your

15:00

life. That scientific data

15:02

is relevant to literally

15:05

no one. It is deadly squat It

15:07

is meaningless. Sorry. I

15:09

know people want a number. People want the number so

15:12

bad. Y'all can look it up if you want to,

15:14

But I'm not going to be the one who hands you that weapon.

15:17

I found the number very recently, in fact, while we

15:19

were working on this show together, and it caused me to spiral

15:22

in my relationship that I wasn't doing it enough.

15:25

And then there's also the horrible, terrible

15:28

trope of I

15:31

don't even know if I should say it, of lesbian

15:34

bed death that I'm so afraid of. Girl.

15:36

I have a whole chapter on lesbian bed death

15:38

in the book You Do, Yes,

15:41

Lucky Me. And the thing the thing

15:43

to know is that there isn't

15:46

really a strong relationship between

15:48

frequency of sex and sex or relationship

15:50

satisfaction. You

15:53

know what is predictive of sex and relationship

15:55

satisfaction pleasure?

15:59

It is whether or not you like the

16:02

sex you are having. And to compare

16:04

your relationship to some standard

16:07

in the research is to apply

16:10

cis heteronormative, patriarchal

16:12

standards to your

16:14

sex life. You're

16:17

letting the man win if you let yourself spiral

16:20

about sexual frequency. And

16:23

while it might be the case that lesbian couples

16:25

have sex less frequently as their relationship

16:28

goes on, that's true for lots of different

16:30

kinds of couples. And also it's

16:32

the case that those couples, compared to heterosexual

16:35

couples, have more

16:37

oral sex, more variety of sexual

16:39

behaviors. They're more likely to say I love you,

16:42

and they have sex longer. If that

16:44

matters to you, Yeah, it does.

16:47

It clicks for me. That definitely resonates.

16:49

So it's not the frequency that matters,

16:51

it's the quality, whether or not you like

16:53

it. Okay, So the

16:56

other big elephant in the room, which you talked

16:58

about right at the beginning, is how your

17:00

body changes as you age. And when you talk

17:02

about a long term relationship,

17:05

you are also inherently

17:08

talking about aging. What

17:10

do we need to know about sex and

17:13

aging? Oh?

17:16

Yes, it's real that bodies

17:18

change over time. For sis gender men, testosterol

17:20

levels drop across their adult lives.

17:23

I think the peak is in the late teens,

17:25

and by the time you get to your sixties, seventies,

17:28

eighties, erections take more time, and

17:30

maybe you know if you're lying down, your erection

17:32

is going to point where the ceiling instead of pointing

17:35

at your chin. For sis gender women,

17:37

the hormone changes of menopause can result

17:39

in physical changes like thinning of the tissue

17:41

of the vulva and vagina, which

17:43

can lead to tearing, which can lead to

17:46

pain, which of course is going to

17:48

reduce your interest in sex. But a

17:50

lot of other changes that are sometimes attributed

17:52

to menopause, including reduced sexual interests,

17:54

aren't actually about hormones. They're

17:56

about psychology, how you feel about

17:59

your changing body and how the

18:01

other symptoms are affecting your

18:04

sense of who you are as a person. And

18:07

of course, for transfolks will be completely

18:09

unsurprised to know that there is a dearth of research

18:12

about aging insects. I

18:14

can say that for anyone who has or

18:17

ever has had a uterus,

18:19

I would recommend heathercorn As Menopause

18:22

book, What fresh hell is this?

18:24

This book is like your non binary best friend has

18:26

become an edrocrinologist and they take

18:29

no shit. I would

18:31

also point you to Amassani, Bernie Scott's

18:33

multimedia project Black Girl's Guide to Surviving

18:36

Menopause. I think gen

18:38

X's really

18:41

pushing progress so

18:43

that as we my generation

18:45

gets to menopause, we are not accepting

18:48

the cis gender, heteronormative, medicalized crap

18:50

the Boomers had to experience, and

18:52

that includes not making assumptions about what's

18:54

going to happen to our sex lives

18:56

on the other side of menopause. We want to

18:58

be who we are without conforming to somebody

19:00

else's narrative of who they

19:03

say we're supposed to be. And it

19:05

is real. While I say that

19:08

people respond differently to aging, for some people,

19:10

really it does feel like I

19:12

never have to worry about that again, in

19:15

which case do you. But for others it's

19:18

now I am liberated from all those ridiculous

19:21

standards against which I was always supposed

19:23

to be measuring myself. None of that applies

19:25

to me now, and I am free to do what

19:27

I want. I

19:30

will be sure to put the links to those books

19:32

in the show notes. Oh, that'd be great, thank you. Of

19:34

course. I have heard

19:36

tell of the papery and often

19:38

tearing post menopausal vagina,

19:41

and I have to say the first time I heard the word papery.

19:44

I was like, it was like times slowed down. I

19:46

was like, what do you mean PAPERI And

19:49

medical treatments for that do exist,

19:51

hormonal vaginal implant

19:54

treatments and by the time you

19:56

get to menopause they'll be even

19:58

more in better interventions. M

20:02

okay. So Arthur asks, are you supposed

20:05

to have sex when you get this old? And obviously,

20:07

like you said, there are no rule, no

20:09

obligations, but you

20:12

are saying like it's normal

20:14

for your body to have big changes.

20:18

Yeah, like your body changes so much when you

20:20

age. In general, your body and your

20:22

brain. Yeah, oh okay,

20:24

tell me more, you know. Sex therapist and neuroscientist

20:27

doctor Nan Wise. She writes that

20:30

as you age, all of your senses stored

20:33

of start to diminish in their intensity.

20:35

The connections between your body and your brain kind

20:37

of wear out a little bit. Your

20:40

eyesight, you're hearing your

20:43

eyesights as the person who is currently

20:45

wearing reading glasses to look at her screen,

20:49

So your eyesight, you're hearing your sense of smell

20:51

and taste, and the same

20:53

goes for your sense of arousal. So that's

20:55

called interreception, your awareness

20:57

of your own body sensations and

21:00

so orgasm and other genital

21:03

sensations and arousal might feel

21:05

less intense too. So if your idea

21:07

of sex worth want is sex

21:09

that is the same as when

21:12

you were younger, or sex that is full of intense,

21:14

spontaneous desire and lots

21:16

of athletic positions, then maybe

21:18

you will feel dissatisfied

21:21

with sex as you age. But

21:25

there's a very simple fix for that. All

21:28

you have to change in order to increase your satisfaction

21:31

is shift your understanding that the sex

21:33

that is accessible to you in your body

21:35

as it is right now, as

21:37

long as it's pleasurable and of

21:40

course consensual, it's worth

21:42

having if you decided is worth having.

21:44

There's no rule. There's just what rule sex,

21:47

however you define it, what role it

21:49

plays in your life and your relationship.

21:51

Can I let me plug here Nan Wise's

21:54

book. It's called Why Good Sex Matters. It is hilarious.

21:57

So if you like humor and affective neuroscience

21:59

together, this is a book for you niche

22:02

audience that I think might be listening right

22:04

now. In fact, okay,

22:07

let's take a break and when we get back

22:09

and we can talk about how we apply

22:12

the science to hopefully

22:14

give Arthur and his wife an answer

22:17

to the question of like, what is sex

22:19

that is worth wanting? Fantastic,

22:32

So, Emily, you and I are here answering

22:34

probably my favorite question

22:37

that we've gotten all season from

22:39

this absolute king. He's

22:42

eighty years old and his wife is seventy

22:44

five. Let me just play a little

22:46

bit of the clip to remind you, are

22:48

you supposed to have six when you get that old?

22:51

I'm saying, if you want it, I do

22:53

want it. Do you think this is the oldest

22:55

person you've ever gotten a question from? Oh,

22:57

he's not the oldest people in their eighties?

23:00

Is the oldest

23:02

that I hear from. I have not yet been

23:05

the teacher to a nonogenarian, but

23:08

for example, a woman attended a workshop

23:10

I led, who told me afterward that she was there

23:12

because she had recently had

23:14

her first orgasm and she was seventy

23:16

five. Oh wow, good

23:18

for her. There was also a couple who attended

23:21

a workshop I led. I'll

23:23

be honest, they were definitely in their seventies, but

23:25

they were there for fun. They did not actually

23:27

need any help from me. Also,

23:31

very good for them. Like I

23:33

think everyone saw that news story a few years

23:35

ago about how STIs are on

23:37

the rise and nursing homes and how seniors

23:40

gets and there was a Parks and rac episode about

23:42

teaching seniors to use condoms. Yes, I

23:45

remember that. Today we are here to talk about

23:47

safe sex. I know this is a personal question,

23:49

but how many of you out there are sexually

23:51

active? Oh? My, I have

23:54

two partners often at the same

23:56

time. Wow, thank you. We

23:58

know old people bang, but we don't

24:00

talk about it. Culturally. It's like we

24:03

just de sexualize people as they

24:05

age. Yeah. I kind of wish

24:07

it were as simple as just de sexual I think

24:10

a lot of people are raised to feel that older

24:13

people's sexuality is like ick,

24:16

because we're taught that if a person's

24:18

body doesn't conform with this fictional

24:21

cultural ideal, which definitely

24:23

involves a young adult body, then

24:26

those people shouldn't be having sex. And

24:29

the thing is all of that stuff is a lie, and

24:31

we get to choose to

24:33

challenge that experience that in

24:36

ourselves and our relationships with

24:38

all the people around us. We

24:41

want to be those people at that sex workshop

24:44

when we're eighty, or calling into a sex

24:46

hotline when we're eighty. We do want to be those people

24:51

so I want to give Arthur

24:53

and his wife some real practical advice,

24:55

and also for every couple that's maybe

24:58

in a long term relationship, or maybe somebody

25:01

who is confronting age and

25:03

their body changing. What would

25:05

be your like practical day

25:08

to day advice for people

25:11

in this situation. This

25:13

is a variation on the question I'm asked most

25:15

by people in long term relationships is what to do about

25:17

a desire differential? So for

25:20

anyone who is a higher desire partner

25:22

in a relationship, once the

25:24

relationship is stable, because again, the couples

25:26

who sustain a strong sexual connection are

25:28

friends who admire and trust each other.

25:31

When that's in place, the first thing to do,

25:33

your first step is to talk

25:35

to your partner about what kind of sex

25:38

is worth wanting. And

25:43

the hard part is that maybe their answer is

25:45

no kind of sex I've ever had has been

25:47

worth wanting, or I

25:50

can hardly imagine any sex that would be worth

25:52

wanting. And if that's the person's answer,

25:54

therapy and let

25:56

me normalize that. Yes, couples this sage definitely

25:59

do seek therapy. There's a whole

26:01

book by sex therapist Barry McCarthy

26:03

and his wife Emily they're both in their seventies,

26:05

themselves married to each other for over

26:08

fifty years. They've seen so many

26:10

older couples that they wrote this whole book

26:12

to help therapists work with these clients.

26:14

It's called Couples Sexuality after

26:16

sixty. So Step one

26:19

talk about sex worth wanting and

26:21

if you need help with that conversation therapy

26:26

step two. So

26:28

I've said the couples who sustain a strong sexual

26:30

connection are friends who admire and trust

26:33

each other, and they prioritize

26:35

sex. But I'm going to add a third

26:37

characteristic. Couples who

26:39

sustain a strong sexual connection over the

26:41

long term reject

26:44

the binary gender rules that

26:47

were assigned to them, especially

26:49

around their sexuality. Both the

26:51

McCarthy's and there's

26:53

a sex educator and researcher named Jane Fleischmann

26:56

who emphasizes the importance

26:59

of this third characteristic. So

27:01

Jane wrote a book called The Stonewall Generation,

27:04

which is about the sex lives of LGBTQIA

27:07

two plus elder boomers who were

27:10

part of the revolution that's

27:12

often marked by the Stonewall Riot, and she

27:14

interviewed them to find out what their sex lives were like,

27:16

and she found that the predictors of sexual

27:19

satisfaction among these

27:21

folks were so. The first

27:23

one was, of course, lowered internalized homophobia,

27:26

and second, higher acceptance

27:29

of their aging bodies. When

27:32

older LGBTQIA too plus

27:34

people have better sex, it's

27:37

when they are rejecting the

27:39

binary. It's when they're rejecting the script

27:42

that says, this is who you're supposed to be, and

27:44

that is something we can all do. So

27:46

when I hear Arthur talking about

27:49

taking something to I think he says,

27:51

get to his potential. Yes,

27:53

what I hear there is erections,

27:56

and I even hear

27:58

the assumption that it's penis

28:00

and vagina sex that he means

28:03

he wants when he says he wants and like sex.

28:06

That's the intercourse imperative. It is assis

28:08

heteronormative script of what counts

28:10

as sex. A long time

28:12

ago, when viagraph first came out, for example,

28:15

there was a study done at the Kinsey Institute that

28:17

found that wives

28:21

in heterosexual couples where the husband

28:23

had started taking viagra were

28:25

actually less satisfied with their sex

28:27

lives because they liked

28:29

that intercourse had become decentralized

28:32

in their sex lives, and when erections came back

28:34

because he was taking a medication. All

28:38

the other pleasurable things they were doing went

28:40

away because now the erection

28:42

was here, And so penetration. People

28:47

expand their access to pleasure when

28:50

they reject the scripts that tell

28:52

them what emotions they're allowed to feel and

28:55

who's allowed to initiate and what

28:57

kind of sex you're supposed to have because of whatever

29:00

body parts you have. So

29:02

maybe this doesn't sound like practical advice,

29:04

but it actually is concrete,

29:07

specific practical advice. Write

29:09

down the script that you

29:11

were given about who you're supposed to be as a

29:13

gendered person and start

29:16

crossing out the stuff that's

29:18

getting in the way of your access to pleasure.

29:21

I'm hearing this, and I obviously

29:24

know this to be true. Like, what

29:26

you're saying makes a lot of

29:28

sense, but it requires

29:30

two people in a relationship to both

29:33

be doing that work of like deconstructing

29:37

the lives they've been told about sex and gender

29:40

and their body and shame

29:43

and finding pleasure and joy. Like if just

29:45

one of them is doing it, I don't think it would

29:48

maybe have the same magnificent sex

29:50

effect on their life. You know, Yeah,

29:52

there is magnificent sex that's available

29:55

through masturbation through solo sex.

29:57

So if Arthur can do nothing else like as

29:59

his partner, if his wife is really just like no

30:02

and no, I don't like it, I don't want it, I don't

30:04

want to think about it anymore. Right then what he

30:07

absolutely like, he can make a bunch of choice for

30:09

himself, and one of those choices

30:11

is to practice masturbation in

30:14

an ecstatic, authentic, deliberate,

30:17

exploratory way. Again

30:22

full circle. We started out with someone who's

30:24

not interested in masturbating. Yeah, our second

30:26

episode with the question from Sarah, and

30:28

we end up with the advice to masturbate

30:31

a whole lot like in like, don't do

30:33

it quick, let it take time,

30:35

don't make it about orgasm, make it about

30:38

what am I going to say? Make your masturbation

30:40

about pleasure? Pleasure?

30:45

Of course I knew pleasure was

30:47

going to come back. Okay,

30:49

on that note, I think we should take a quick break. No,

30:52

I want to stay here and talk about sex and long term

30:54

relationships forever. But yeah, probably

30:56

yes, we should take a ridk Okay, and

31:00

when we get back, I want to revisit some of the

31:02

big lessons you covered in this episode.

31:18

All right, Emily, we're back. Our final

31:20

episode of this season is coming to a

31:22

close. No rip

31:25

my heart out, I know what am I

31:27

ever going to do? In the meantime, can

31:30

you just recap some of the

31:32

takeaways from this episode about sex

31:34

in long term relationships and

31:36

in long term relationships

31:38

like Arthur's yes we assume, we

31:40

assume Yes fantastic idea? So

31:43

four things. First of all,

31:45

aging is real and normal,

31:48

and sometimes it's inconvenient and disappointing,

31:52

But whatever happens, the ones who get old are the lucky

31:54

ones. And different people respond

31:56

differently to aging, including in how they

31:58

feel about sex in their aging

32:00

bodies. For some people, it really is few. I never

32:02

have to worry about that again, And for others

32:05

it's few. I am liberated from

32:07

all that nonsense, all the standards

32:10

against which I was supposed to be comparing

32:12

myself. Two. Couples

32:14

who sustain a strong sexual connection

32:16

over the long term are couples

32:18

who admire and trust each other and

32:21

who prioritize sex. Three.

32:25

Sex is easier to prioritize when everyone

32:27

involved likes the sex,

32:30

So talk to each other about what kind

32:33

of sex is worth wanting. And

32:35

if you haven't read it yet, please go read

32:37

Peggy Cliine Plots and Danna Maynard's Magnificent

32:39

Sex, which is about the research on the

32:41

extraordinary lovers. And

32:43

finally, the ultimate

32:46

real answer to having great sex

32:48

in the long term is

32:51

releasing yourselves from the six

32:53

heteronormative scripts about how

32:55

you're supposed to experience sex and

32:57

who's allowed to have it or do it and what's

33:00

supposed to happen while you're doing

33:02

it. Wow. You

33:04

mentioned so many amazing books in this episode, and

33:06

they are all going to be in the show notes. Well,

33:12

Emily, that puts a bow on this puppy.

33:15

That wraps it right up. I just want

33:17

to thank you so much for being the best

33:19

sex head teacher I've ever had, DAP.

33:26

It has been a delight in a pleasure. I am absolutely sincere.

33:29

You have just described my actual literal reason

33:31

for being on earth, which is teaching

33:33

people to live with confidence and joy in their bodies,

33:35

letting them know that they're normal, and teaching

33:38

them how to create pleasure

33:41

with science. And

33:45

I feel like I feel like we're doing it. You're

33:47

doing it, and I'm just learning along the way. And

33:51

now I'm off to finish my book. It's

33:54

called Come Together, and I'm very proud

33:56

of that. Oh my god, that's so good.

33:58

Get it see because it's not about simultaneous

34:01

orgasm. It's about people turning toward

34:03

each other. Prepare yourself

34:05

for Come Together, coming out in

34:07

twenty twenty three. Thank

34:11

you all so much for listening. Come

34:17

As You Are is a production of Pushkin Industries

34:19

and Madison Wells. It's hosted

34:21

and executive produced by Emily Nagowsky.

34:24

You can find Emily on Instagram

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at e Nagowsky and on Twitter

34:28

at Emily Nagowski. You can also

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dot com, where she writes about everything

34:36

from the clitterest in your mind to

34:38

orgasm after having hysterectomy. It's

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an incredible newsletter. Highly recommended.

34:43

This show is co hosted and lead

34:45

produced by me Mola Board. You

34:48

can find me online at Mola Board

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dot slut Sorry mom.

34:55

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35:52

for this series was composed by Ameliagoski

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