0:00

This is The Guardian. I'm

0:08

Grace Dent and this is Comfort Eating

0:10

from The Guardian. A

0:14

podcast where we pay homage to

0:16

the lesser celebrated foods in life.

0:19

Because even as a restaurant critic,

0:21

I believe the food that matters

0:23

most is often that snack you

0:25

cobble together when you curl upon

0:27

the sofa. Each week

0:30

I ask my guest to lift the

0:32

lid on what comfort foods have seen

0:34

them through their lives. Because you can

0:36

tell a lot about a person from

0:39

what they eat behind closed doors. Hello

0:45

friends, I'm standing

0:47

in my living room waiting

0:49

for my guest today. I am looking up at

0:53

a large dark hole

0:55

in the ceiling. It is not at all

0:57

glamorous. I can actually see the

0:59

waste pipe of the toilet.

1:03

What's happened here is at

1:05

my shower, just above

1:07

where the guests normally sit,

1:10

it has been leaking for years

1:13

and there has been a very

1:15

genuine threat that the entire shower

1:17

unit was suddenly going to

1:19

plummet and just hit somebody. In fact,

1:22

all of last autumn I had a

1:24

fear it would happen right

1:26

during an interview with

1:28

Tom Carridge. It was never

1:31

Gregory Porter. It was never John

1:34

Ronson. For some reason, always Tom.

1:37

Well, he's coming today and he

1:39

is in luck because I have

1:41

taken this bathroom situation by the

1:43

hands. I am choosing tiles right

1:45

now for my new project. It

1:48

is literally all I talk about right now.

1:50

No, no, come back. Honestly, I'm not that

1:53

boring. Here's the problem. I

1:56

am never going to feel

1:58

grown up enough to Choose tiles. My.

2:02

Too few for. His

2:05

recovery so reza thing is like Aetna

2:07

tattoo it easy to get rid of

2:09

us has her every time I sit

2:11

down and have a ways to the

2:13

next ten years on gonna look at

2:15

these tiles. Might hopes it is. Don't

2:17

ask anyone elses opinions on the tiles

2:19

that you signed to show any want.

2:21

just do it. Just go and get

2:23

them. They'll say that they don't like

2:26

some my man so some lovely ones

2:28

have found the other day he said

2:30

they look like of clay nose. Bucks.

2:32

Grow on. A. Man. Who.

2:34

I know could pick tile with

2:37

confidence on a problem. Is.

2:39

Mister Tongue Carriage. He is decorated

2:41

no less than seven as his

2:43

own restaurants. He is a multi

2:45

award winning chef on broadcaster who

2:47

put his teeth cooking at some

2:49

of the country's finest restaurants, but

2:51

it was when he still I'd

2:53

opened his own place. He says

2:55

things really really took off for

2:57

him. He all began with the

2:59

opening of The Hundred Flowers is

3:01

the only pulled in the world

3:03

to have to missions dust and

3:06

since then he's grown his empire

3:08

to include venues across Marlowe. And

3:10

London including a fish and chip

3:12

outlet. Inherits. Suits

3:15

Twenty Twenty Two. He's been a guest

3:17

judge on B B C's Great British

3:20

Menu. He sounds very

3:22

busy and so soon him

3:24

spending his days motor in

3:26

between venues right in his

3:28

many is. A. Brainstorming,

3:31

And. This dish. But. When

3:33

the grills off and the last

3:35

guest serenely walked the dog. War.

3:38

Is. He munching on. To. Restore Energy.

3:42

Think he distances. Ever

3:52

catches self eating the same level as

3:54

dinner three days in a row. Rheumatism?

3:57

Ben Well hello fresh is your guilt.

3:59

Free dream. True, very easily. Sticky

4:01

bomb as. Let's wake up

4:03

Okay bird with fat, juicy. Pk

4:05

across the chicken or garlic

4:08

butter should scampi hello for

4:10

me. Sad.

4:12

Dreaming of all the delicious possibility and

4:14

the hear that hello fresh, that. gives

4:18

his in the body size. A

4:23

lot can happen in three years, like

4:25

a chatbot may be your new best

4:27

friend. But what won't change? Needing health

4:29

insurance? UnitedHealthcare Tri-Term Medical Plans, underwritten by

4:31

Golden Rule Insurance Company, offer flexible, budget-friendly

4:33

coverage that lasts nearly three years in

4:35

some states. Learn more at uh1.com. Some.

4:42

Carrots welcome to come for a. Thank

4:44

you very much me! I feel very

4:47

comfortable. Why is that? Is that?

4:49

Because you're inside my house. Is is

4:51

we are not high so hung yeah

4:53

and if is very different so people

4:55

create spaces and you could you can

4:57

fill this as it it's a hung

4:59

matter said personality prose it's and but

5:01

he lives here and it's welcoming him

5:03

it's nice and his lovely so it's

5:06

already has a nice voice as as

5:08

as long as register. Very sociable. And

5:10

I always like to begin

5:13

with. Serious. And pertinent

5:15

question that is to think that the

5:17

nation is asking. Your.

5:19

Name Carriage Auto

5:22

corrects. Scheduling.

5:25

I love that he has. Do

5:27

you think that that led to her

5:29

involvement with. The. Seem to have was

5:31

no actually because my mom's maiden name

5:34

was Cook Ware again if quickest way

5:36

I was there. Really? my mother's maiden

5:38

name with coke or that was around

5:41

before auto correct a physicist lot of

5:43

if. I'm gonna ask another

5:45

important question. Perjury. I Love

5:47

Category. Where do you stand?

5:50

On. Whether it is a breakfast or is

5:52

in or item. i actually being

5:54

the reality be to say say is the source

5:56

and that you can apps like at any point

5:59

of the day It does have it.

6:01

It does have it in the sense. But it

6:03

doesn't, no, no, no, I love the idea of

6:05

it for breakfast because it's quite a left field

6:07

choice of breakfast. It's a bit like clippers. Like,

6:09

do you know what I mean? Like if you've

6:11

got all the things on a breakfast menu and

6:14

you're choosing kedry or clippers, I mean, you're making

6:16

a strong statement there. So I would say it,

6:18

I think it's a very special breakfast biff. Tom,

6:27

every week my guest shares

6:29

their go-to snack, their bite,

6:31

their guilty pleasure. It is

6:33

something that makes them feel just

6:36

a little bit better. What

6:39

have you got hidden underneath?

6:42

My, it's a fornamen, mate. I know,

6:44

it's very, very posh. You can see the

6:47

kedry. Come on, because you are a

6:49

Michelin star chef. It's very nice. Yeah,

6:51

there's not even any holes in it. I've not even

6:53

burned it or anything. Can

6:56

you please reveal your snack? Look

6:59

at it. It is the ultimate snack.

7:03

Please explain what it is. It's cheese and grapes,

7:05

mate. And it is like

7:07

cheddar and it's red grapes. They're

7:09

always in my fridge because it's

7:11

very easy. You haven't got to do any

7:14

cooking. It gives you

7:16

bursts of sugar, vitamins, right? For me, if

7:18

I've done, cut the days, work

7:21

them. I don't know. Sometimes if

7:23

you're travelling, you're just eating rubbish garage snacks. Do you

7:25

know what I mean? There's no sense of vitamins or

7:27

health or anything. So if you come in, load

7:30

of grapes, normally

7:33

seedless, sweet. So

7:36

you get sugar rushes, but you also

7:39

get a sense of vitamins coming through. Cheese

7:41

for me is amazing. It's like the ultimate snack.

7:45

I don't mind the Cathedral City,

7:47

the Pilgrims' Choice. Slice

7:49

of that. Some grapes. Anytime.

7:52

It's just the real pick-me-up energy levels. I love it. So

7:56

I'm sensing that you come in

7:58

on a night when you... just you lie on

8:01

the sofa with the grapes, just kind of draped,

8:03

just draped like Caesar. Yeah,

8:07

I mean, that's not actually strictly true. I

8:09

have a routine of how I do that as well. So I'll

8:11

come in and I'll take the

8:13

grapes and I'll work out how many grapes I'm gonna eat

8:17

from the bunch and I remove them all, right?

8:19

And then I put them out of grapes

8:21

so they're like little nugget sweet in a

8:23

bowl and then the cheese and they'll sit

8:25

on that. And then it's almost like

8:28

cheese and chutney, isn't it? That's the thing. But

8:30

it's a good late night go-to snack. Like it didn't

8:32

used to be that. It

8:35

used to be cheese on toast, the old

8:37

tube of Pringles and a pint

8:39

of gin, but now it's very different. Although

8:48

you've got three Michelin

8:50

stars under your belt, you've described

8:52

yourself as not really

8:54

a Michelin star kind of guy. So

8:58

I want to understand who the

9:00

real Tom Courage actually is.

9:03

Maybe it'd be better to go back to the

9:05

start in a place that I know is really

9:07

special to you. Take

9:09

me back to your favorite

9:11

childhood pub. There's

9:14

a number that have been part and parcel of my

9:16

life. There's a place called the Four Mile House, which

9:18

is just outside Gloucester, four miles outside of the center

9:20

of Gloucester. What does that look like? A small little

9:22

white pub with a beer garden in the back that

9:25

had like a rusty climbing frame and it was a

9:27

kind of place my dad used to take us there

9:29

when we were little kids, play in

9:31

the garden, drink panda pops, run around, what's he drink

9:33

a few pints, but I love that pub energy. In

9:36

this pub you're going into

9:38

Four Mile House. What are

9:41

they selling behind the bar? Like

9:43

crisps and stuff. What snacks have

9:45

you got? The Smith's crisper, you

9:48

put the salt on yourself. They were

9:50

the ones for me, absolutely loved it. Cause it

9:52

felt like- Salt and shake. Yeah, cause it felt

9:54

like you were involved in something. I liked that

9:56

you were doing something. You were creating, you were

9:58

making your own crisper recipe. pig and I

10:00

like you know that sense of involvement I don't

10:02

know what happened there what. Well I

10:05

always think that there are four people

10:07

who aren't even adventurous enough to commit

10:09

to self. Yeah

10:12

very good point yeah very good point. Do you

10:15

think that's the first time you ever chef? Yeah

10:18

it probably is actually that is the first time that

10:20

I've added something to create a

10:22

flavor profile that you would be changing that

10:24

is probably a very good point yeah. You

10:27

grew up in Gloucester in the

10:29

70s and 80s with your parents and your little

10:31

brother so talk to me a

10:33

little bit about family lifespan in the 70s and 80s. So

10:36

it's quite odd the moment dad split

10:39

up when I was not it's not odd it was

10:41

actually no different to pretty much anybody else when I

10:43

grew up my mom and dad split up when I

10:45

was 11 but pre that my dad

10:47

wasn't around very much they didn't have necessarily

10:50

the best of relationships. So

10:52

you remember them being together at all?

10:54

What really I remember is being in the same

10:56

house there wasn't like lots of

10:59

family holidays there wasn't like that we weren't hanging

11:01

out. Did your dad work? Yeah

11:03

he was an art lecturer at the local college

11:06

and they split up when I was

11:08

11 and my dad was also then very ill

11:10

so he had MS. So

11:12

this kind of family relationship it

11:14

really was kind of non-existent

11:17

my relationship kind of I remember much

11:19

more when it was just the three of us. Did

11:21

your dad have MS when he lived with you?

11:24

He did yeah but we didn't really because

11:27

we were quite young you don't really know what it

11:29

means and it moved out so when I was 11

11:32

so my brother would have been 8 and

11:34

it was only the next few years after that though when

11:37

you start to realize how ill he was and how ill

11:39

he became and that you realize what

11:41

a heart disease it would have been to deal

11:43

with and his world that he was living in

11:45

and how he dealt with that and like

11:47

it was just and

11:49

it's hard to put together as an 11 year old because you

11:51

can't work it out. I don't think he was the best husband

11:54

in the first place for husband reasons

11:56

let alone being ill so the reason they

11:58

split up was and anything to do with

12:00

his illness. It was to do with him

12:02

not working out together as a couple. And

12:05

then your mum is looking after you both.

12:07

She's cooking for you, creating a home. So

12:11

you get back from school. What's

12:13

cooking? I don't know what they call them,

12:15

kids, latchkey kids. So you would have the key and you

12:17

come back in and you'd open the door and you were

12:20

cooked here from your brother because my mum had two jobs.

12:22

So she'd be working as a secretary and then she'd go

12:24

and work in a local pub washing up. There'd be a

12:26

couple of nights at the week that we'd do something we

12:28

might make spaghetti bolognese together. But apart

12:30

from that, it would be normally me doing

12:32

potato waffles, crispy pancakes,

12:35

fish finger sandwiches. Those

12:37

were beans with little sausages in. That

12:39

was like the highlight. Do you know

12:41

what I mean? Like those tindraavioli. Did

12:44

you feel like you were having a hard time, you were hard

12:46

done by all of it? Absolutely

12:49

not at all. Not one bit of

12:51

it. We never felt unloved and never

12:53

felt like we were missing out because

12:55

of where we grew up. Everybody

12:58

was the same. We weren't like the

13:00

odd ones out. It was fairly normal

13:03

for where we lived. And I think it's probably

13:05

still fairly normal for most people's

13:07

lives now. Although every Sunday my mum would do

13:09

like a proper roast. She would do like a

13:11

proper roast dinner. And then we'd turn up with

13:13

some kids that we'd been playing rugby with on

13:15

a Sunday morning and we'd all have a bit

13:17

of lunch. That

13:19

must have been lovely. Do

13:22

you know what? I think it's the first bit, Gresh, where I

13:25

feel that sense of hospitality

13:28

where it's about making people feel

13:31

welcome. It's not necessarily always about the

13:33

food. It's about the sense of warmth.

13:36

It's so important. So important. To you,

13:38

I mean. Yeah, yeah. Not

13:40

to the people. I mean to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so important.

13:42

It's such a big thing. Like there's a point of

13:44

going, yes, great. We've cooked something. They've enjoyed it. And

13:47

now they're disappearing off again. But they've had some between.

13:49

They've ridden off on their bikes and not even bothered

13:51

helping washing up. Like shaking our

13:53

fists as we ride off or something. But still there

13:55

was that sense of warmth and

13:57

connection, I think, through Sunday lunches.

13:59

mega. I love it. I think something that's just so important.

14:12

We know you loved rugby, but

14:14

tell us more about

14:16

teenage Tom. Tell

14:18

us about your dos years, as your mother

14:20

used to say, we were wild

14:22

kids at all. Come on, I want to know. No,

14:25

no, the most trouble you've

14:27

ever been in with your mother. I can't

14:29

say that great. No, I can't. But

14:31

I have been home. I'm sensing the

14:33

story. No, there's none. There's no I've

14:35

never ever been in trouble. Have you

14:38

been brought home by the police? I

14:40

have been brought home by the police.

14:42

Yeah, I have been brought home by

14:44

the police. What have you done? In

14:47

all honesty, I don't mind probably drinking,

14:49

probably drinking, probably smoking, probably setting fireworks

14:51

off, probably putting things through people's letterboxes,

14:53

probably being like all sorts of ridiculous

14:55

teenage naughty stuff that people get up

14:57

to like that whole world of chaos

15:00

that you live in as a teenager

15:02

or in a state when you're bored

15:04

and you haven't got a Sega Mega

15:06

Drive, you know, what else you did?

15:08

Yeah, but then because I didn't really

15:10

know what I was going to do.

15:13

So I left school at 16. My mum

15:15

took us to a youth here, me and my best mate

15:17

that lived opposite. I mean, children don't

15:19

quite different to Gloucester and you know, this posh youth

15:21

here at the Everyman Theatre in Cheltenham and I come

15:23

from this state in Gloucester and it was kind of

15:26

like, they also quite like naughty

15:28

boys. Oh, yeah. You just go, so this

15:30

is quite a cool space to be hanging

15:32

out like a teenager like can it to

15:34

the posh birds really? It was it was

15:37

quite good fun. So you just go, well,

15:39

this is quite a cool place to be

15:41

hanging out. I happened to

15:43

stumble across Tom Carridge's very

15:46

own IMDB page. You're

15:48

listed as playing a bully. Yeah.

15:51

And a SUG 1. Yeah. One

15:54

of your acting credits. What

15:56

does this reveal about? Tom

16:00

carriage as a teenager. Well, I think it

16:02

was tight cast from an early age I

16:05

like you just go like so a borsel

16:07

boy miss Marple a bully Thug

16:09

one was my official title on London's burning That

16:11

was when it goes up with your name like

16:14

the credit thug one Tom carriage. I thought there

16:16

we go. Yes Can

16:18

I ask you one more question about your

16:20

child does it? Yeah, as if when

16:23

you talk about your Your mom

16:25

and your dad and then your dad was very

16:28

ill But did that have

16:30

a massive effect on you as you at

16:32

all? It feels like you're pretty strong about

16:35

it Yeah, I do know what so we died

16:37

when I was 18. I Didn't

16:39

really grow up with him as a young kid I

16:41

don't have massive memories of like holidays together and all

16:44

that sort of because it just didn't happen and

16:46

then from the age of 11 to 18 once he'd moved

16:48

out and then he became very ill and then ended up in

16:50

a Home and then they're like they're

16:52

the sort of things that you go through

16:55

that I think make you stronger I think

16:57

at those points you don't recognize the relevance

16:59

of how Perhaps

17:01

upsetting it might have been I

17:05

think did you see him during this time? Yeah

17:07

Yeah, we used to go every week every Friday evening for

17:09

an hour or so and it got to the point where

17:11

he didn't recognize us Or like

17:13

he couldn't talk or it was I mean,

17:16

so it was very very difficult Was this

17:18

around the same time as uh, Cheltenham

17:20

and the act in or was this yeah,

17:22

it was about the same time Yeah, so yeah So he died

17:24

when I was 18 and that was

17:26

at the point where I was beginning to realize that

17:28

I need to get my shit together and get a

17:30

proper job and find my way in life properly because

17:34

Why why why why those two things

17:36

together? Well, you know, you know, it was

17:38

just the time. It's just an 18 year old.

17:40

I needed money. There wasn't acting work It really

17:42

wasn't me. It didn't suit me. I was still

17:44

living at home. I just needed to find A

17:47

world. Yeah, and I literally walked

17:49

into a hotel kitchen Looking

17:52

for a job washing up. It was that

17:54

instant moment that it grabbed me So

17:57

you decided against pursuing a career?

18:00

in the Miss Marple franchise. And

18:02

instead at the age of 18, you pursue cooking.

18:04

And this is a time pre-Jamie

18:07

Oliver, pre-Nigella, pre-Gordon Ramsay,

18:09

pre-Bakoff, pre-Master Chef. So

18:12

who actually is your

18:14

role model? The thing that happened was when I

18:16

was 18, you look around and all the cookbooks

18:19

that were around were pretty much almost like textbook

18:21

style. And you're learning about ruse and you're

18:24

learning about it. And it's all quite functional.

18:26

And then my mom, I think it might

18:28

be my 18th birthday, bought

18:30

me White Heat by Mark P. White.

18:32

And it just came out. And I

18:34

just remember sitting on the sofa and opening it. And the

18:37

front cover, it just grabs you straight away. And

18:40

I've not heard of Mark P. White.

18:42

I wasn't really into knowing or understanding

18:44

what Mission Stars were or

18:46

what they represented or what they meant. Hang

18:49

on. Now, is White Heat, is

18:51

it a cookery book or is it an

18:53

autobiography? Is it a story or...? It's

18:56

a biography is Marko's cookbook, his

18:58

first cookbook that has

19:02

black and white pictures of

19:05

the energy of a kitchen taken

19:07

by a fashion photographer called Bob

19:09

Carlos Clark. So all of

19:11

a sudden, this pristine French

19:13

chef White's tall hat, like

19:15

kind of polished shoes, the

19:18

reality of that wasn't like the kitchen I was in. And

19:20

it wasn't like the majority of the

19:23

British kitchens that we were in, all of a sudden

19:25

Marko showed what it was

19:27

like cooking at Harvard at that

19:29

point to Mission Stars, this 24

19:31

year old chef, whatever old he

19:34

was, this creative, scruffy bloke, smoking

19:36

cigarettes, like the energy, the

19:38

excitement. And it was just like, this

19:40

is what I'm doing. This is who

19:42

I relate into. This is who I

19:44

am. This is so exciting.

19:46

This is incredible. And I just remember sitting there

19:48

on the sofa and just being sucked

19:50

into this book of almost

19:53

like narnia proportions that you're going through

19:55

a wardrobe into a world that I

19:57

was kind of already half in. Yeah.

20:00

working in a country house hotel somewhere just

20:02

outside Gloucester and all of a sudden it

20:04

was like, I am that cool. So

20:06

you see those pictures and what do you think?

20:08

I want that. Yeah, I want that. I want to be

20:10

a part of this. I want to live this world. It's great.

20:13

The energy is exciting. It's fantastic. You're

20:15

talking about this with more

20:17

enthusiasm than someone talking about

20:19

a religious text. Because

20:23

it's equal to me. Like I haven't

20:25

got a religion. My religion is this

20:27

food and this creativity in the spark.

20:30

Hold

20:45

up! What was that? Boring. No flavor.

20:47

That was as bad as those leftovers

20:49

you ate all week. Kiki Palmer here

20:51

and it's time to say hello to

20:53

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21:56

just starting out loving the rough and the tumble,

21:58

the creativity, the kitchen. How

22:01

did you get through the

22:03

shift? What's keeping you going?

22:05

That's changed as I've changed and

22:07

got older and recognised that the

22:10

places have changed and the kitchens have changed. And

22:12

were you back then, were

22:14

you allowed to drink in the kitchen?

22:16

Did you drink half of it? No, never drinking.

22:19

After the shift? After shift. There's always post

22:21

shift. No one would ever drink in the

22:23

kitchen. I've never been in the kitchen

22:25

where people drink. During service. Actually, that's a lie. I've been

22:27

in a couple. Is

22:29

it a case? I mean, look, I've

22:31

hung around chefs for

22:33

years and it feels like

22:36

when you're in the kitchen and service

22:39

is on, you're high energy, high energy,

22:41

high energy. And then

22:43

bang, the last order goes through, you've

22:45

done your clean down. You're full

22:47

of adrenaline. And that is when

22:50

you drink. Yeah,

22:52

that's it. This is a release. It's a

22:54

release of pressure,

22:56

excitement. And because of the

22:59

nature of a lot of people that work

23:01

in it, there is a lot of conversation

23:03

about in terms of addictive behaviour that happens

23:05

in hospitality. And that's because these people, us,

23:07

myself, are made to feel welcome in that

23:09

world. You might not feel that welcome in

23:12

a standard stifled office

23:14

environment. You all finished

23:16

work. You all had a laugh and mugged each other

23:18

off. And now you're going to go and have a

23:20

beer because the pub that you know does a lock

23:22

in. So you all go and hang out there or

23:24

your mate runs a bar around the corner. I was

23:26

going to say, I'm not a speaker. We are

23:28

both ex drinkers.

23:32

And I always say,

23:34

never drink with chefs.

23:37

I've done a lot of drinking with chefs. The

23:40

problem with chefs is that they've

23:44

always got places to go because you

23:46

all know people with venues. So

23:49

after the lock in, there's always

23:51

someone's restaurant. And then after the

23:54

restaurant, there's somebody's seller. And it

23:56

goes on and on. And

23:58

it's relentless and it never ends up. end

24:00

up at somebody else's house because there's something else there

24:02

and it's like... Someone's always going to get pregnant. Yeah,

24:06

exactly. All the police are

24:08

called. Right. How many

24:11

pints could you... We're starting at

24:13

11. Oh, you're in

24:15

trouble, mate. I would start off with two

24:17

pints of Negroni. Like I would drink pints

24:20

of Negroni to start.

24:22

Yeah. You have two pints of Negroni. To

24:24

start, yeah. And then what happens? That's

24:27

just the start. Then we're on the lagers.

24:29

You do six pints of lager as

24:32

you finish at the pub, clean

24:34

it down and then go out. And

24:36

then it would be great. I really don't

24:38

know but it could easily be... On a

24:40

big night out, it would probably be 20 pints

24:42

of lager, two pints of Negroni and a

24:44

pint of gin. Right. I've got two questions.

24:47

How am I alive? Yeah.

24:50

Right. I mean, I'm being honest. I'm not even laughing. How are

24:52

you not dead? How are you not

24:54

dead? Well, I was

24:56

very good at it. Very big.

24:59

Had to stop. Just went at it and done. Why

25:02

do you think you were drinking like that? Because

25:06

I loved it. Because I loved

25:08

it. And I wish I could do it now

25:10

without any of the health

25:12

nightmares that come with it. Oh, I love

25:15

it. I love the chaos. I love the

25:17

mayhem. Late night. I loved

25:19

everything about it. And I love the

25:21

release of pressure. I'm slightly disappointed in

25:23

myself that I can't now ever

25:26

enjoy a glass of wine or

25:28

a beer on holiday because I

25:30

just... My brain doesn't work like

25:32

that. It was always, always about

25:35

getting absolutely smashed as fast

25:37

as I can and then keep going. Like,

25:39

relentless. So what... See,

25:42

I hate talking about rock bottoms because sometimes

25:44

I think that as drinkers,

25:47

like I didn't have a rock

25:49

bottom. I just feel as if like it

25:51

was like almost like an

25:53

anchor on a ship that was already on the bottom.

25:56

And then it just like went along the bottom of

25:58

the sea for about... 20

26:00

years, like there was loads of rock bottom.

26:03

But did you have? Was there a... No, mine was

26:05

an age thing when I gave up. Mine

26:07

was it was because I was approaching 40.

26:11

And it was a point of reflection. So

26:13

we'd achieved two missions. I'd done television, I'd

26:15

had a best selling cookery book. I'd just

26:17

like all of these things. That wasn't getting

26:19

pulled away from me because I was back

26:22

to that was there. And I

26:24

was drinking. It was all part of this whole

26:26

thing. But people knew you as

26:28

that. I mean, the people knew you as

26:31

really funny, good time, Tom,

26:34

drank. So you

26:36

had to give away that identity. Yeah,

26:38

you do. You worry at first, I think

26:40

that people are going to think you're different

26:43

and that you're going to be your

26:45

identity of who you are. Something that you're going

26:47

to be forgotten. But we're not

26:50

stupid as human beings. We're not stupid. You know if

26:52

you're drinking that amount, it's not good for you. You

26:54

know if you're that size, it's not good for you.

26:56

You know if you smoke 30 cigarettes a day, it's

26:58

not good for you. We all know that. We're not

27:00

stupid. We know that. So like I was 39 and

27:02

I just went, what am I doing?

27:05

But why? Was there a

27:07

moment where you went right from tomorrow?

27:09

That's it. Yeah, no, no, there was a date

27:12

that I put in, but I had to work

27:14

to it. And it was about four or five

27:16

months away from that point of going right.

27:18

This is where I know I'm going to stop. And I

27:20

have to stop at that point. And I can't do it

27:22

before then because there's this happening,

27:24

this happening, this happening. I can't change all that.

27:26

But when it's that point, that

27:28

day, that's the end. You

27:32

were just so radically different looking really. You

27:34

lost 12. Yeah,

27:37

I did. I lost 12 stone. I put

27:39

some back on. It's in terms

27:41

of like volume in terms of weight

27:43

lifting and muscle mass. I swam. So I

27:45

ended up with a quite longer,

27:48

thinner swimmer's body, stop swimming, now go

27:50

to the gym and lift and become

27:53

wider. And like, I don't know, hench now.

27:55

I go through period. But

27:58

I go through period. And at some point I'll go,

28:01

right, I'm going to stop that, I'm going to swim again. As

28:12

somebody that used to begin

28:15

the weekend with two pints of Negroni

28:17

and then go on to drink

28:20

all the rest and who likes the chaos

28:22

and everything, can you please tell

28:24

me how you managed

28:26

to meet someone very, very special? Set

28:30

the scene of how you first met Beth. So

28:33

I met Beth, it was my housemate's

28:36

birthday, so one of my

28:39

best mates, his brother moved in with us

28:41

as well and he was working, he was

28:44

a technician for Sir Anthony Caro who's a

28:46

major British sculptor and

28:49

Beth, he used to talk about this

28:51

girl that worked there, she was a

28:53

MIG and TIG welder, she went to the Royal

28:55

College of Art and she was one of the

28:57

technicians for Anthony Caro creating smaller MIG

28:59

and TIG welded sculptures and bronze casting. And

29:02

then it was his birthday one night and we

29:05

went out into a club in Camden, into a

29:07

comedy club, John Deere, as I don't actually remember

29:09

in Camden. So Adam, my mate was

29:11

like, come on, it's Tim's birthday, we've got to go out. And

29:14

I just remember thinking I really cannot be

29:16

bothered to go out. But

29:19

I had a quick shower, quite changed. I was

29:21

going to say, thank God you had a shower

29:23

because I've dated you. You always actually stink

29:25

of lamb fat. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there's nothing

29:27

worse if you've been on the fish all day,

29:29

you just smell it like, no, no, no, no,

29:32

it was like shower out and I

29:34

walked into the bar a bit of junglers

29:36

and I walked in and this quite

29:39

fiery green eyed girl

29:42

just went, give me three pounds

29:44

for the stripper. All right.

29:48

All right. So I gave a free tip for the stripper

29:50

and that this was Beth and it was a stripper

29:53

never turned up. Like anybody, that's

29:55

the first sentence that somebody says to you

29:57

is like, brilliant, amazing. We got a really,

30:00

really well. We've been together pretty much from that

30:02

day. So it was one of those

30:04

relationships where she turns around, she just gives

30:06

us three pounds for the stripper sentence. Yeah.

30:08

And that was it. Yeah,

30:10

I tell you what, any pretty girl from

30:12

up north demands three pounds for a stripper.

30:14

You go, okay, I'm quite interested in how

30:16

this evening is going to end, where this

30:19

conversation is going to go, what's happening. And

30:21

then from there, we've been together since. Hang on

30:23

a minute. Right. I'm gonna let me wind back. So

30:27

what I would say is, like

30:30

when you date men, they often

30:32

say that they'll cook for you. And then

30:34

they can't bloody cook. You can hear them

30:36

in the kitchen, opening the

30:39

jar of Domino, you know. So

30:41

there must be some perks of

30:45

meeting someone like you in junglers

30:47

that you are going to woo them

30:49

with delicious food. Yeah, pretty much.

30:51

So I stayed at Best Flat

30:53

that weekend. And she went to work on the

30:55

Monday. And I think I was off on the

30:57

Monday, maybe the restaurant was shut. I can't really

31:00

remember. And then I thought,

31:02

well, cook her tea. And she went

31:04

into work. She came back

31:07

and I like boned and rolled a couple

31:09

of chicken breasts that I got from the

31:11

24 hour shop opposite and wrapped them in

31:13

bacon and done some pasta and did a

31:15

very simple, very, really nice. And Beth came

31:18

through the door, she fully expected me to

31:20

have been gone. And the

31:22

telly missing and actually come back and I've done

31:24

a bone and rolled stuffed chicken breasts and some

31:26

pasta in like a cream sauce. Yeah, so I

31:28

kind of won her over with pasta

31:30

from a 24 hour shop. I

31:33

think that if I come in and you've done that,

31:36

I would have been like, he's never

31:38

going. Never going. Yeah. I always seem to

31:40

work quite well. She asked me to marry her

31:42

after about six weeks. She asked me. Best

31:44

isn't just your wife, you opened your

31:46

first pub together in Marlow in 2005,

31:49

the hand and flowers. Tell

31:52

me about those early days of your own place.

31:56

We were looking for all sorts of different sites

31:58

and places. We had a with

32:00

a studio, but we didn't

32:02

have enough money. So I earned a

32:04

salary in Norfolk and Beth wasn't working

32:07

to try and create art but couldn't afford any of

32:09

the material or the, because she's a sculptor, not a

32:11

painter. Okay, so that didn't work either. So we were

32:14

looking at what we're going to do. So we said,

32:16

well, maybe I should get a higher paid job in

32:18

the center of London and go back and Beth

32:21

was like, look, if you're going to go and do those hours, we

32:23

may as well just roll the dice and do it for ourselves. So

32:25

it's like, okay, all right, let's do it for ourselves. And

32:28

that was the first point of jumping off and Beth

32:30

was like, I run from the mouse, you get to

32:32

the point where you can cook what you want. And

32:34

we make it work as a business. And I can

32:36

get to the point where I can make uncompromised art.

32:39

It's money better than when you go there. If

32:41

you can you say things are quite tight. And

32:43

then when you get hand and flowers, do you

32:45

have more money? No, no, no, you don't

32:47

have any money. Absolutely none at all. But

32:50

you are in control of a destiny. It's

32:52

a big fear factor, because I'd always spent

32:54

my whole life working for

32:57

someone. So you know how much you earn. So

32:59

you know how much you can pay in rent. And you know, if

33:02

you're lucky enough to get more giving you that's it,

33:04

that's what you can do. Now all of a sudden,

33:06

I was throwing that all the way I was

33:08

31 years old and going, the only way we're ever going to

33:10

make this work is by me making

33:12

it work. So we lived above the hand of flowers.

33:15

And we rolled back dice and took

33:17

the decision. What was it like

33:19

for your relationship? What's quite odd, first

33:21

year is really bumpy. Like if you are

33:23

living above a

33:25

place that you're working in and you're

33:28

working 16, 18

33:31

days, and you're trying to build

33:33

a business and all the pressures that are

33:35

on it and the pressures are new as

33:37

a relationship is really quite extreme.

33:39

It's quite anybody who's worked together, I think with

33:41

their partner will tell you the same sort of

33:43

thing that it does. Some ways

33:45

it really pushes on a relationship. And in other

33:48

ways, it makes it so much stronger. And what

33:51

the end is always. Stairs, if it's hospitality, do

33:53

you have to kind of be

33:57

trying to keep a wrap on the fact that you're really pissed

33:59

off with each other? other in front of people

34:02

and then go and shut the door upstairs and have a shout. Yeah,

34:04

to be honest, I don't think we were ever pissed off

34:06

with each other. I think we were pissed off with the

34:08

situation. I think you get pissed off with no

34:11

escape route. The only

34:13

way you can go is still upstairs in the business. The

34:16

only place is like there's nowhere. It's

34:20

relentless. How did you make it

34:22

work as a couple? You

34:26

just make it work. You just make it work. You

34:28

just keep going and you just keep driving and you

34:30

keep building

34:33

on everything that you've got. I think if you're

34:35

a strong enough couple, you get through it anyway,

34:37

don't you? And then it starts turning, it starts

34:39

moving and then... Good,

34:41

I mean, God, not always. I'd say that

34:43

hospitality is full of couples that have had

34:46

to split businesses up and get the lawyers in

34:48

and like... That's very true. That is very

34:50

true. You survived. Yeah,

34:53

not just survive. We thrived, like

34:55

done really well. It makes everything

34:57

much stronger and you

34:59

understand each other much, much more.

35:02

We've been through so much. You've

35:04

been through recessions, we've been

35:06

through drinking issues, we've been through

35:08

building businesses,

35:10

we've been through massively in debt,

35:12

we've been through businesses having to

35:15

close, we've been through all sorts

35:17

of different things. But I

35:19

think the joyous thing about the two

35:21

of us is that we've also been through huge

35:24

success. It

35:35

was only a year after opening

35:37

that the Hundred Flowers got its

35:39

first Michelin star and

35:41

six years later, it got

35:44

second. Can you

35:46

remember hearing the news? It's

35:48

quite a weird thing because they sent a

35:50

camera crew and gave

35:52

us a letter and videoed

35:55

it and as I opened the letter

35:57

and the letter says that we've achieved

35:59

two Michelin stars and the kitchen brigade

36:01

behind it. And it's one of those

36:03

amazing phenomenal moments. And because

36:06

it was all about... And you see the

36:08

emotion in your eyes. Yeah, no, it is.

36:10

But it's amazing. It means so much. And

36:12

it meant so much for the

36:14

whole team because everybody had been on this journey. And

36:16

there's still the people there that were on the journey

36:18

from there from that day and there. And you go,

36:21

this is so significant. It

36:23

was just an incredible, magical,

36:25

brilliant moment for the whole

36:27

team. You've now got

36:29

your own family, your son,

36:31

80, who's eight. Now,

36:35

you didn't have a father figure. How

36:37

do you think this has impacted

36:39

the sort of dad that you are? A

36:43

lot of it, I think, is down to having

36:45

a son at a slightly later age, like, you

36:47

know, my son's eight. Like the idea

36:49

then when we've got a little baby,

36:52

the idea of having a hangover when you've got

36:54

like, it's not. And now, on

36:56

a day off, I just want to hang with

36:58

him. I want to be a part of him growing up.

37:01

We talked about earlier missing that I didn't get

37:03

a real understanding of father son relationship when I

37:05

was a kid. So I'm learning being a dad,

37:07

at the same time as he's learning being a

37:10

son, we're going through this journey together. And I

37:12

really like it. And we get it wrong. And

37:14

we get it right. We're very similar. We argue

37:16

a lot, like the two of us, like because

37:18

we bash heads because we are

37:20

very similar, like my poor

37:23

wife Beth every now we'll have proper

37:25

arguments like, like, but like so childish,

37:27

like, I'm like eight, go, no, we're useful. And

37:29

then she will absolutely, Beth will lose her shit.

37:31

Go to the two of you. And then she'll walk

37:34

and I go, see, now that we've done mum,

37:36

you be upset. It's just like, it's just, and then

37:38

you find yourself going, we're

37:40

more like brothers, but it's like

37:42

42 years difference. You feel like

37:45

you, yeah, you're, you're learning

37:48

what fatherhood is because you don't

37:50

remember 100%. Yeah, 100%.

37:52

I've got no point of reference to go, this

37:55

is what it should be like. And this is

37:57

what we did with my dad. And this is

37:59

how it should be. I've got no point in

38:01

reference. So I think probably more so

38:04

thinking of it

38:09

from my dad's point of view, because

38:12

I think, God, you missed out on all

38:14

of this, partly through your

38:16

own decisions that you made, also

38:19

because of your illness. So I feel

38:21

sad that he missed out on

38:24

that. But not, I

38:26

don't feel sad that I missed out on it, because it's not

38:28

something that you recognise as a kid. So it's kind of a

38:30

weird, you don't know what you're missing in it if you haven't

38:33

got it. It's only now that I'm going, and I'm

38:35

probably, I'm quite pleased I haven't got it. I quite

38:37

like the learning curve. I quite like that we're learning

38:39

together. I think that's quite special. You

38:41

have seven restaurants now from the Coaching Marlow

38:44

to the Butcher's Tap in London. Hundreds of

38:46

covers every day. Not only

38:49

this, you're doing fish and chips in

38:51

Harrods, presenting on telly. You

38:53

do charity work too, around food, cooking,

38:55

cost of living. You've grown an

38:59

empire. My question is, have

39:02

we now hit peak carriage?

39:05

Yeah, I think we have. I struggle.

39:08

Well, I struggle with the idea of

39:10

more volume. I don't micromanage, but I

39:12

like to be in business. I like

39:14

to be in the businesses. I like

39:16

to understand what's going on. What's

39:19

the motivation though? Is

39:21

it the money or is it just the

39:23

idea that you were this

39:26

young lad from where you're

39:28

from? And now there's like this enormous

39:30

picture of you everywhere time you walk

39:32

in somewhere. Is that it? I

39:35

think it is because it's not the money

39:37

because restaurants, irrespective of what people think or

39:39

prices that are charged or whatever, they don't

39:42

make money. They're so difficult. Margins are so,

39:44

so tight. Now you mentioned

39:46

that we have six seats. We're

39:48

constantly still right now moving money around

39:50

from accounts to be able to pay

39:52

bills in different spaces. Some make money,

39:54

some absolutely lose money. Some go through

39:57

peaks in trust. So every month is

39:59

a really difficult juggling

40:01

act. You know, I've just got a bill for a

40:03

part of the solid top in the oven. And one

40:05

of the properties is 6000 pounds to repair you go,

40:08

this month is not made that so where do we so we

40:10

got to move money from there to there to go. And you

40:12

honestly thought that you would have

40:15

no idea how much tops

40:17

and fridges and things were

40:20

still were in your places.

40:22

Honestly, if you'd have said to me,

40:24

does Tom know how much

40:27

the new fridges and that restaurant

40:29

I would have thought 100% I'm all over

40:31

that we dealing with the complaints. Yeah,

40:33

I do see the complaints. Yeah, yeah, I see

40:35

the complaint. How quickly do you know when

40:37

I've been in? When

40:40

you've been in I get service report every night

40:42

from each space. So if you've been in and

40:45

they've spotted you, I will know. We

40:52

come in to the end.

40:55

But in 2017, you launched

40:57

pub in the park, a

41:00

festival of food and music it

41:02

started in your hometown of Marlow

41:04

is now right across Britain, all

41:07

summer long. But this year, you've

41:09

got the Morrison playing.

41:13

Now, he's famously

41:15

grumpy old get I'll say it. I

41:17

know you can't. I'm going to

41:19

set the scene here. Van Morrison

41:22

has been to pub in the park. It's

41:24

raining. It's a typical British summer. He's

41:27

got trench foot. One of his speakers

41:29

has blown and he's properly kicking

41:31

off. You Tom

41:33

need to give him something to placate him.

41:36

It's gotta be fast. What's it gonna be? Well,

41:39

just choosing grapes, man. Okay,

41:42

Van Morrison, forget

41:44

everything else Van Morrison. Listen, Van the

41:46

man. Listen to me pilgrims

41:49

choice, right? And a couple

41:51

of red grapes. That leaves all the pain.

41:54

I'm gonna get a bit of bread with it. Maybe

41:58

some Irish soda bread. Tom

42:01

Carridge, this has been

42:03

a rollercoaster. Thank you

42:05

for comfort eating with me. Thank you so much.

42:07

It's like you're making me feel comfortable and allowing

42:09

me to comfort each other. I'm going to have

42:11

a little bit more. This

42:16

episode of comfort eating was produced

42:18

by Tom Glaatter. The

42:21

executive producer is Lissy Greenley.

42:24

The music is written by Axel

42:26

Kuketiek. Visuals by Sophie

42:28

Harrell. Mixing in sound

42:31

design by Solomon King. If

42:33

you love this podcast, then

42:35

you'll love my book Comfort

42:37

Eating. It's a slice

42:40

of joy sprinkled with nostalgia about

42:42

my family, stories, of

42:44

the making of this podcast

42:46

and recipes which will leave

42:48

you well-fangled bewildered. Finally,

42:52

go on, leave us a review and

42:55

we can follow or subscribe so that you

42:57

never miss an episode. This

42:59

is The Guardian.