0:06

Hello. And welcome to comic boom, the

0:08

comics in education podcast. If you're

0:10

interested in hearing more about the crossover between

0:12

comics and education, then this is the podcast

0:15

for you. My name is Lucy St

0:18

arbuck Braidley And each week I'll be joined by fellow educator

0:20

and academic librarian or a creator

0:22

of comics to discuss their journey into comics

0:25

and provide some inspiration to influence

0:27

your practice. And hopefully shine some light

0:29

on some titles that you can bring into your libraries

0:31

and classrooms and onto your bookshelves at home

0:33

as well. Today I am joined

0:36

by Eliza Fricker. Eliza

0:38

is an author and illustrator and an advocate

0:40

and consultant for PDA autism

0:42

and learning. She's published several books,

0:45

including the Sunday times bestselling title.

0:47

Can't not won't and the acclaimed

0:49

autobiographical thumb sucker

0:51

released in November, 2023. I

0:54

love both. I'm a massive fan of

0:56

Eliza's work, as you will hear, throughout

0:58

the episode. Eliza offers a range of support

1:00

for parents on navigating autism

1:02

and education. That's very much the focus of her

1:04

work. There's a great podcast

1:06

on Spotify, which I'll link in the show notes too.

1:09

It all started with her blog missing

1:11

the mark, which is a great thing to delve

1:14

into as well. And it's still available Eliza's

1:16

work powerfully, depicts the experiences

1:18

of many families who find their family's

1:20

needs. Aren't served by the current education

1:22

system. And for me, it highlights

1:24

the power of comics and being able to put the reader.

1:27

Firmly into another person's shoes.

1:30

Reading can't not won't make me really reflect

1:32

on many aspects of my own teaching

1:34

practice. And made me reflect on many perspectives,

1:37

which are quite, prevalent in our education

1:39

system. We really have an in-depth

1:42

discussion in this episode about

1:44

those kinds of perspectives and the difficulties

1:46

with them. We talked today in quite an open

1:48

and Frank way, um, which at times

1:50

does criticize the, the education system

1:52

in the UK. So do buckle up. But I

1:54

think these were all conversations that we really need to have

1:56

wherever on that scale, your opinion

1:59

falls.. I'd like to say also in

2:01

today's episode, I share some personal experiences

2:03

as a parent of a child with special educational

2:05

needs, who sometimes doesn't want to go to school too

2:07

sometimes, but not all the time, but sometimes.

2:10

and I'm really aware that the issues and barriers that we

2:12

face in our family are a fraction of what other

2:14

families face. It's not my intention

2:16

to over-exaggerate that or to minimize other people's

2:18

experiences. But hopefully just to highlight

2:20

some of the context to my own. Very

2:23

personal reaction to Eliza's work.

2:25

I think this is a great listen. Um,

2:28

really powerful, very thought provoking.

2:30

Here's what Eliza had to say.

2:36

Hello, Eliza. Welcome to Comic Boom.

2:38

Hi, thanks for having me.

2:40

You are very welcome. I

2:43

always like to start the podcast in the same way,

2:45

which is to ask guests to say a little bit

2:47

about their own journey as

2:49

a comics reader. First of all, where

2:51

did that start for you? Is that something

2:53

that you've always done or

2:56

maybe it's not part of your reading diet anymore?

2:58

What can you tell us?

3:00

I've always read comics, from

3:03

the Dandy and the Beano, and I've never

3:05

stopped. So then I moved on to graphic

3:08

novels, and they've always chimed

3:10

and resonated with me. I found there's always

3:13

been a more honest and It's kind

3:15

of, and almost kind of

3:17

raw portrayal of life in them that I

3:19

can really relate to. Um,

3:21

I've never sort of, I've never been drawn to anything

3:23

that's sort of of the fantasy genre but certainly

3:25

anything that's real life,

3:28

autobiographical, that kind of

3:30

thing within the comic graphic

3:32

novel, medium I just, I love it and

3:34

always have.

3:35

Yeah, I really love autobiographical comics

3:37

as well. So do you think your interest

3:40

came from the story itself and the way

3:42

that stories are told in comics

3:45

or from you, you are an illustrator yourself.

3:47

Was it, was it more the artistic side that

3:49

was drawing you in, in that kind of first instance,

3:51

do you think?

3:53

Um, I think there's something

3:55

about comics that you can put

3:57

the nuances in that

4:00

I would struggle to convey myself.

4:03

In just writing, I think it leaves

4:05

a lot of space as well for people to

4:07

engage with that how they want. actually

4:09

an editor did say to me a long time ago, she said,

4:12

you leave a lot of space in your work, there's a lot of

4:14

gaps, because obviously you get people who illustrate

4:16

graphic novels with all the detail.

4:19

Um, I tend to remove it actually,

4:21

and my work is very, immediate,

4:23

so it looks quite scratchy.

4:26

That's because there's a pace to how I do it.

4:28

It's a way, because I'm using it to process

4:31

as well, it's very fast

4:33

how I get it on the paper and I leave

4:35

it like that.

4:36

And in turn, are those the kind of approaches

4:39

that you appreciate in other people's work? Or do

4:41

you find yourself also liking the more contrast,

4:43

the more detailed things in your, in terms

4:45

of what you pick up and read?

4:48

Yeah, I'm amazed when people can have

4:50

that sort of detail in it because it shows

4:52

there's a, um, it's

4:55

probably my ADHD as well that

4:57

I, I just would not have that patience

4:59

to be able to plan

5:02

and put it all down

5:04

with that sort of detail because I'd be

5:06

wanting to rush and move on to the next

5:09

bit and I'd be worried I'd forget the next bit

5:11

too. So there's an envy

5:13

to people who can do that and

5:15

plan so methodically, but

5:17

for me it's very much about the immediacy

5:19

of getting it out there. Do

5:24

In terms of did comics form part of

5:26

your school journey?

5:28

I know that you, obviously, a lot of your

5:31

work focus is around kind of the

5:33

experience of school and the education system.

5:35

But did comics actually feature in your own

5:38

educational journey?

5:39

I was always reading them and I was,

5:42

I think they've helped me process a lot. You

5:44

know, as someone who, is neurodivergent

5:47

myself, the world is quite confusing.

5:49

And for me, any book, but particularly

5:52

graphic novels as a visual communicator, were

5:54

a way of me trying to make

5:56

sense of the world. And there was something,

5:58

I think, that people who write

6:01

graphic novels. I wouldn't like to say

6:03

they're all neurodivergent. I couldn't say

6:06

that, but there's certainly, I would say

6:08

that people who do write and draw

6:10

them tend to be outsiders. So

6:12

that was something for me that really helped

6:14

me growing up, to feel that

6:16

there were these other people out there that were

6:18

seemingly struggling with the

6:21

life and the world that was presented

6:23

to us.

6:24

Mm. It's quite a broad question. You've

6:26

touched on some elements there. What

6:28

do you feel that writing and drawing

6:31

comics has kind of given you over

6:33

the years? Has it been a sort of support

6:35

structure for you?

6:36

Yeah, I mean absolutely. It,

6:39

I know that word empowerment does get banded

6:42

around a lot but for me

6:44

there have been several major

6:48

experiences in my life where

6:50

I have felt, enormously

6:52

that things were out of my control. Um,

6:55

and it gave me some voice and

6:57

some control back. I'm not very

6:59

good at That's the wrong thing

7:01

to say, I'm not meant to be negative about how

7:03

I process the world, but I've struggled

7:06

to, in a lot of situations.

7:09

in the moment, um, because

7:11

of my processing. And so, I

7:14

can appear like a people pleaser or

7:16

a fawner, just because I'm finding that

7:18

situation incredibly difficult. And

7:20

then that shifts it from feeling

7:22

like I've been in control of that situation

7:25

because I've tended to agreed with everything

7:27

that's been said becasue I can't follow what is

7:29

being said.. Um, and

7:31

then it's, so it's in hindsight

7:34

when I can use my drawing to process

7:36

that stuff. And I have, it's

7:38

amazing because I might struggle to take

7:40

it in at the time, but then the drawing

7:42

and the writing after really helped me pull

7:45

it back out and remember what had happened.

7:48

And also to put my own. narrative

7:51

on it. I think for a lot of people who are neurodivergent,

7:54

we feel that other people take our voices

7:56

away. So it's really important to put

7:59

our voices back into, into

8:01

our own stories, really.

8:03

Yeah, I just think there's such power in, in

8:05

being able to tell your own story.

8:07

And I think comics is just a really accessible

8:10

way to encourage people to

8:12

have, to have their own voice and to

8:14

talk about their own experiences and

8:17

the world as they see it as well. There's some

8:19

great people doing excellent work out there,

8:21

but it's not something that's widespread and it's really

8:23

underutilized, I think, in schools, that kind

8:25

of creative writing and artistic as

8:28

a way of processing, the world.

8:30

Well, there's not enough art in school, full

8:32

stop. It's kind of, it's another

8:34

thing I feel really passionate about is that we

8:37

are told there are essential subjects

8:39

and others are less important

8:41

and that's, that's a very difficult thing.

8:43

When you're an interest based learner and you're

8:46

neurodivergent and you don't get

8:48

to do those subjects that are so vitally

8:50

important for you. It's really tough.

8:52

Yeah, even, I was having a conversation with my daughter last

8:54

night, who's about to choose her options, for

8:57

year 10. And she said that

8:59

her art teacher at school told her not to do

9:01

art unless she wanted to, as a GCSE, unless

9:03

she was thinking of a creative career.

9:06

I was like, what? It has

9:08

value in of itself, surely.

9:11

Wow.

9:12

yeah, I know,

9:12

And also the idea that you're going to know at

9:14

that age where you're going to go in life

9:17

is

9:17

Exactly, that kind of binary,

9:19

you're either arty or you're not, and you

9:21

just get, yeah, funneled

9:23

off, don't you? Just

9:27

before we, we're going to talk about your work in

9:29

a detail in this podcast,

9:31

but before we go on to talk about, your own books,

9:33

I just wondered what you've mentioned, you're interested

9:35

in kind of autobiographical comics and

9:38

just an opportunity for you to give some shout

9:40

outs to some of your favorites or some things

9:42

that you're reading currently, that maybe people

9:44

listening might also like to look

9:46

into.

9:47

I think the, I've read Daniel

9:49

Clowes most recent one. That

9:51

was the last thing I read, that was a graphic

9:53

novel. I think Daniel Clowes

9:56

faces are the most amazing

9:58

faces. If you haven't read them,

10:00

you have to just look. I see, I don't know

10:02

if you do this, but I see when I

10:04

walk around. people that look

10:06

like Daniel Clow's faces now.

10:09

They are just so brilliant, um, I

10:11

love them. I don't know, I'm just looking

10:13

at my shelf of graphic novels. I have

10:15

a lot, uh, over there

10:17

but, I'm reading, I'm reading a school book

10:19

as I call it. I have to try and sort

10:21

of absorb things from my work as well so

10:23

I'm

10:24

Hmm. Yeah.

10:25

Attempting a non fiction but I'm not great

10:28

at

10:28

A lot of research and things like that.

10:30

Yeah.

10:33

I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about how you became,

10:35

an illustrator, how that journey

10:38

through the education system, the other influences

10:40

in your life that led you to kind of having

10:42

that role.

10:43

well I've always drawn. It's always been

10:45

a huge comfort to me. I did

10:47

draw in one of, well I put in one of

10:49

my books, the back of one of my school

10:52

books because I was always told off for doodling

10:54

and it's absolutely covered in doodles

10:57

because it was a way I could concentrate and

10:59

was to squibble. But I used to draw

11:01

a lot with my dad. My dad's was a political cartoonist

11:04

for the National Press and he

11:06

was a stay at home parent, so I'd

11:09

sort of come home from school and,

11:11

we'd sit and we'd draw stuff together,

11:13

um, and we'd draw people we'd seen

11:15

in our local area and we gave them

11:17

nicknames. so it was definitely

11:20

something that made me feel really

11:22

comforted. The humour

11:24

element I found just

11:26

amazing. I just loved it, and I loved

11:29

that connection that it brought with

11:31

my dad, who was sort of my safe person.

11:34

and so that's just really carried on

11:36

through my life. I've never really

11:38

stopped drawing. I did work

11:40

as a designer for a few years,

11:43

designing wallpapers, but that

11:45

was really boring, and I found the design

11:47

world really boring. Writing books

11:49

is, I think it's that connection

11:51

to have, it's always having that emotional

11:54

connection to stuff, gives that

11:56

kind of fire and interest to it.

11:58

And, so that for me, being

12:00

able to do what I do now has really

12:02

kind of just honed

12:04

in on my special interest really. And I

12:06

need to feel that real energy

12:09

and excitement from what I do. I've

12:11

never been very good at doing jobs where I don't

12:13

have that.

12:18

In your book, Can't Not Won't, I recently,

12:20

I gave it to a colleague actually as a present. And

12:22

I put in the, on the tag, the,

12:25

the truth of this is, this is, is heartbreaking.

12:28

I just felt like it

12:31

really is an honest

12:33

and really open reflection

12:36

on some of the issues with the education system.

12:38

This podcast is for teachers, librarians,

12:40

people working in the education system. So definitely

12:43

recommend that everyone gets themselves a copy

12:46

and, reads it because it

12:48

really clearly just depicts part

12:50

of the, experience that

12:52

I don't think as teachers in school, we

12:54

get to see, we don't see what happens at

12:56

home. We don't see what

12:59

the parents necessarily thinking when they're

13:01

sat in those meetings and when they're walking

13:03

away. And I just think

13:05

it's a real eye opener. And

13:07

I know in terms of, you know, you're depicting

13:10

the kind of early days of school avoidance

13:13

in primary school and then through to secondary school.

13:15

And it's an experience that many people have,

13:18

but not everyone's shared their experiences

13:21

more widely. I just wondered what the kind of journey

13:23

was for you to be able to

13:25

get to the point where you wanted to

13:28

and were able to share your story,

13:30

yours and your daughter's story in this way.

13:33

it wasn't until we were sort of

13:35

out of it that I

13:37

could do it. Um, because I think

13:39

I was, well, we were both in sort

13:42

of survival mode when we were going through those

13:44

experiences. but a lot

13:46

of it was, was rage.

13:48

You know, I felt absolute rage

13:51

for quite a long time. It's

13:53

really about the sort of lack

13:56

of empathy, um, that

13:58

I remember after it had happened,

14:01

the sort of the last day, if you like,

14:03

in the breakdown, and I was

14:05

just walking the dog and I was chatting to one

14:07

of the, the women I know in the neighborhood who

14:10

also walks her dog, and, uh,

14:12

she just, when I explained what

14:14

had happened, this awful experience on

14:16

the last day, she said, But,

14:19

you know, that's a little, little girl, that's

14:21

a little child. And,

14:23

you know, I thought if someone that I just

14:25

know on a dog walk says that, you

14:27

know, how far have

14:29

we come where we are so desensitized

14:32

to this harm that we're actually

14:35

causing children? and I think

14:37

that that was a big

14:39

driving force was, you know, to

14:42

put that rage somewhere for sure,

14:44

because I knew that it wasn't worth

14:46

sending emails. Um,

14:49

you know, I know parents who log complaints

14:51

and have folders full of complaints to

14:54

school governors and local authorities,

14:57

and I know what happens in those

14:59

situations. I know why people

15:01

do it, because they're really upset, but I know

15:03

that the, unfortunately, ranks

15:05

close you will get a politician's

15:08

answer. and I knew it was futile,

15:10

so for me this was power

15:13

to say, this is

15:15

what happened. and if you

15:17

read this and you feel empathy,

15:20

then I've done something. Because

15:22

that's all I'm asking, is

15:24

that people are empathetic.

15:26

I mean, I read something just

15:29

before meeting you, just now,

15:31

um, on Twitter. And it was a head

15:33

teacher saying, I don't know why we

15:36

need these trauma informed, restorative

15:38

practices in our education. We just

15:41

need rules. And

15:43

you read these things and you think, who

15:45

are you? You know, have you,

15:48

it's so removed from

15:50

just being kind to a human.

15:53

It's just amazing.

15:54

I've certainly, so just from terms of

15:56

my own experiences, with

15:58

my child has definitely

16:01

had, he's a lot better now, a lot more

16:03

settled, but definitely, um,

16:05

he, was finding school very

16:07

difficult. And, that

16:09

experience. has made

16:12

me have some really deep and honest

16:14

reflections over decisions that

16:16

I made or ways that I acted

16:18

as when I was a teacher when I was inside the system.

16:21

And I realize I was

16:24

wrong. Basically, I realized

16:26

that when you're in that system, you

16:28

feel quite helpless as well. As a teacher,

16:31

you feel like, well, I can't I can't change

16:33

the system. The system is the system. The child

16:35

has to come to school. I don't know what to do about

16:37

that if they don't want to. And I definitely,

16:40

I've sat there saying they're

16:42

fine when they're here. definitely said that. And

16:45

I thought I, that, that, that was what I

16:47

saw in front of me. But I also know that

16:50

my son is fine when he's there is when he gets home

16:52

and he lets it all out that he's not fine. Um,

16:55

and so I definitely feel

16:57

That it, I

17:00

can, you know, it's eye opening for

17:02

me to be able to read your work and, but, but

17:04

also I've reflected

17:06

on that from my own experiences, but we

17:08

need to be better than that because you shouldn't

17:11

have to be a parent and experiencing

17:13

it in order to be able to understand it. So I think

17:15

that's where the power, you know, to be able

17:17

to. There's something about

17:21

the way that you create images that just

17:23

really opens up and explains

17:25

all the different feelings, emotions,

17:27

thoughts in a way you know, it wouldn't

17:29

be as powerful if it was just prose or

17:31

if it was communicated in another way.

17:33

And I, you know, I understand, I understand

17:36

that it isn't, you know, this, it's,

17:38

the system is so inflexible.

17:41

I met lots and lots of nice teachers

17:44

and it's not about that.

17:47

It's about, you know, we are stuck as

17:49

parents and the professionals

17:51

are also stuck with this really inflexible

17:53

system. But the thing that would

17:55

have made, you know, a huge difference,

17:58

and I always say, no one ever said to

18:00

me, You know what? School doesn't

18:02

work for all kids. And

18:04

no one ever said there's other families

18:06

like you. And so

18:09

that puts families in a very

18:12

isolated position. And isolation

18:14

is not good. We need communities.

18:17

Putting families in

18:19

isolation like that with their experiences

18:22

is really harmful.

18:24

Yeah, completely agree. And I,

18:27

I'm imagining that there's quite

18:29

a kind of community around your work

18:31

that parents who've had similar experiences

18:34

have reached out to you. what sort of feedback

18:36

have you had from them?

18:38

Yeah, I mean I have I have

18:40

a big, you know, Facebook's probably the biggest

18:43

following. I think, I don't know what it's

18:45

up to now, I think it's about 50,

18:47

And I do probably

18:50

between six and ten consults

18:52

a week, so that's meeting families

18:55

who just want to sort of talk through their situation.

18:57

And I think they just want to hear that it will be

18:59

okay to do something different. Because

19:02

that's something that, like I said earlier,

19:04

professionals are not really allowed to say.

19:07

Um, and so families who

19:09

are in crisis need to know there

19:11

are options out there. they need to know

19:13

that. It is okay to do something

19:15

quite different for their children. And to

19:17

hear that that can actually be a really

19:20

much brighter place to be for the whole

19:22

family. It isn't just school.

19:24

And I love hearing families

19:26

when they tell me about different, ways

19:28

they've gone with their children's learning

19:30

and their lives and how it's can change

19:32

that all like the whole family's lives.

19:35

I love, you know, and hearing how happy they

19:37

are and, You know, from the place

19:39

they were in, dragging children into school

19:41

and shouting and everyone miserable

19:43

and, you know, dealing with meetings and

19:46

paperwork, there is another way and

19:48

it's, and it's just lovely hearing families when

19:50

they tell me, you know, it's working.

19:52

This is, this is where we should have been years

19:54

ago. This is, This is, good.

19:57

And there's so much fear associated with making that leap

19:59

outside because I'm imagining it feels

20:01

very much like you care, you'd

20:04

be judged, that you're then, you know, you'll be

20:06

blamed in terms of, you know, labelled

20:08

in terms of as a parent who's not making the best decisions

20:11

for their child, if it doesn't work out

20:13

well, or if, you know, there's risks associated

20:15

with stepping outside of that mainstream,

20:18

isn't there? It must be a really difficult

20:20

thing to do, especially when

20:23

you're, you know, feeling isolated.

20:25

Yeah, and it's, we have these anchors in

20:28

life, don't we? School, marriage,

20:30

work, Um, and we, they're there for a

20:32

reason, they make us feel like we're doing

20:34

the right thing, that we're on track, so

20:37

to remove that, feels

20:39

really scary, but there's lots

20:41

and lots of different ways to go, and

20:44

there's also other ways of dipping in and

20:46

out, and, you know, it

20:48

might not even be forever, you might have

20:50

to take a step out for a bit, and then you

20:52

step back in, or it might be a completely

20:54

different sort of, environment,

20:56

learning environment, but um,

20:59

there are lots of different ways to go. But I

21:01

think when you initially

21:04

are thinking about that, it is

21:06

school or what, and school or

21:08

home. And as,

21:11

you know, parents, we've done the baby years,

21:14

we've, it's scary to think we could

21:16

potentially have to be at home with a child

21:18

again.

21:21

so I'm interested in the kind of process to

21:23

creating can't, not, won't. I just

21:25

wonder, you know, you've said

21:27

that you just didn't have the capacity, it could

21:29

only be done after the fact. Do you

21:31

think that that fact that you're kind of

21:34

reflecting back has,

21:37

and that you kind of know the outcome, I guess, changed

21:39

the work itself? Do you think that that was a really

21:42

necessary part of, of

21:44

creating what it is that you've created?

21:46

In terms of it being a reflection rather than

21:48

in the moment. Yeah,

21:52

that's very much how, how I go

21:54

about life. It's often

21:56

a reflection. Um, it's

21:58

not, not in the moment. but

22:01

I was, I do remember sort of sitting

22:03

in situations. The

22:05

one that really stands out for me was,

22:07

we were sent on a six week course,

22:09

which was, for children, autistic

22:12

children to transition to secondary

22:14

school. And, I don't know how

22:16

many, maybe 12 parents were in

22:18

that room. Most of us had children who were

22:20

barely going in. And

22:22

it was the most bizarre meeting

22:25

set of meetings I've ever been to. I

22:27

think I managed two or three. they'd

22:29

stuck a piece of blue tarpaulin

22:31

on the back wall. And they

22:33

were using post it notes to sort of put

22:36

up our, you know, ideas

22:38

and whatever. And, they

22:40

were just completely ignoring

22:43

the room. They were not reading the room.

22:45

You know, we're sitting there saying, look, you know,

22:47

I've got a kid that's not getting

22:49

in, or I've got a kid that's, you know,

22:51

smashing up the house. And they

22:54

were completely whitewashing us.

22:56

It'll be fine. What they need is

22:58

a map. They need to know. And you're

23:00

just thinking, You have

23:03

not got a

23:05

clue. And, um, I

23:07

just thought it was so comical that I had to

23:09

draw it. I thought, this is so surreal.

23:12

Um, and this is the sort of things that I feel

23:15

are, really are places

23:17

that can be changed. You know, parents

23:20

want to hear the truth.

23:22

Parents want to hear the truth. hear

23:25

the real, the realness and we

23:27

do not get that from the local authority,

23:29

we do not get that from the coffee mornings

23:31

or the parents groups, it's very much just

23:34

try harder, keep trying, keep

23:36

pushing. Um,

23:38

I mean, it's fascinating just to hear there's a six week

23:40

course because I mean, I think I've probably had

23:42

half a day's training on anything to do with

23:44

autism the whole time, decade I was a teacher.

23:47

or maybe it was just for us, the ones really

23:49

on our knees, they thought we needed

23:52

six weeks of it.

23:55

Um, yeah, the emphasis does seem to be a little

23:57

bit in the wrong area there. Um,

24:00

yeah, it's really, really interesting and I guess

24:03

it is again, it's that it gives

24:05

you an opportunity to be a

24:07

fly on the wall outside of your

24:09

own personal experience, but there's

24:12

something about that combination of image

24:14

and words that I

24:16

just feel can put you in a room with other people

24:19

in a way that is really hard to achieve. In

24:21

any other medium. I

24:24

wanted to ask you a little bit about how you kind

24:26

of navigated. The depiction

24:28

of, because it's not just your experience, it's also

24:30

your daughter's experience, and there's

24:32

a dedication at the back of Can't Not Won't which

24:34

is directly speaking to her and

24:37

it was very beautiful. and I just wondered how

24:39

you navigated including

24:41

her in the book and if she has,

24:44

you know, her views of it and how you

24:46

kind of did that. Dealt with that. It was quite complicated,

24:48

I imagine.

24:49

Yeah, it is, and it's, you know, something

24:51

I'm very mindful of. I never, I

24:53

would never post a photo online.

24:55

I know there are people who share their sort

24:57

of Family experiences and

24:59

they do share a lot of pictures of their children

25:02

online. That's not something I would be

25:04

comfortable to do. you know, I,

25:06

I keep the name different. I don't

25:08

share anything about, you know, that

25:11

could kind of reveal, um,

25:14

who, who she is. Um, and actually,

25:17

as it's developed, Missing the Mark,

25:19

It's become a mother and child,

25:21

other people's experiences as well have fed

25:24

into that. So a lot of the drawings I do

25:26

now are much more We've

25:28

become almost symbols of the parent

25:30

child rather than it being, um,

25:33

a direct experience. And there is

25:35

so much that I haven't shared, you know,

25:37

there's lots and lots of bits of this I would

25:39

never share. they're too personal,

25:41

they're too upsetting, and they're not, it

25:44

just, I, I'm, I have a I

25:47

have a real line in my head of

25:49

how far and what I will

25:51

share. Um, you know, I'm

25:53

actually a really quite, we're quite private

25:55

people. So, you know, I'm, I'm

25:58

really aware of that. And obviously

26:00

I asked her beforehand, would this be

26:02

okay to do? Um,

26:04

and you know, I made sure that I had her

26:06

permission to do it.

26:08

what does she think of it now that it's out

26:10

there in the world and become a

26:13

kind of a community, a movement even?

26:16

not really that interested, more interested

26:18

in sort of, trainers and, music

26:21

and going out with friends and

26:24

Deliveroo. Um, so

26:26

not massively interested, I have

26:28

to say, but she obviously knows because

26:31

I work from home and she's in and out that,

26:33

you know, that my work revolves around

26:35

that. But yeah, it's not something she

26:37

really talks about, really. She's just not

26:39

interested. It's the adult world,

26:41

I guess.

26:42

Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? I think sometimes I'm like,

26:46

what do I have to do to make people proud around here? Goodness

26:48

me, I'm like, yeah,

26:51

I'm working really hard over

26:52

that come? I'm just wondering that. When do we

26:54

sort of look back and sort of I don't know.

26:57

I'm working really hard to be a role model and no one's

26:59

noticed. I'm

27:02

sure they will at some point. Just

27:06

thinking about, your work. I feel like there's just so

27:08

many audiences. we've spoken about

27:10

parents kind of reaction, people

27:13

going through similar experiences. I'm

27:15

obviously taking things as an educator

27:18

that I feel, and I, I learned a

27:20

lot from it and Were

27:22

you thinking about educators

27:24

as a potential audience when

27:26

you wrote, well, any of your

27:29

books really? and what do you hope

27:31

that educators take from, from your

27:33

work?

27:34

Yeah, I'm definitely, I'm definitely thinking

27:36

about them. I'm, I, I want

27:38

to, I want to close the

27:40

us and them gap. Um, I

27:43

want, I want more real conversations.

27:46

I want to be seen as a,

27:49

as an intellectual person rather

27:51

than just mum. I think I've done quite a

27:53

few posts about mum

27:55

says. I got, Probably one of the most

27:57

devastating things, actually, was

28:00

I got, I retrieved,

28:02

we have a sort of autism

28:04

slash inclusion service,

28:07

um, where we live. And

28:09

I requested, I don't normally do this, but

28:11

I think, I can't remember, I had to do something

28:13

that, I needed that information

28:15

they had. I said, oh, can I have the file

28:17

that you have? and I

28:20

think we'd been seeing them probably by then

28:22

about four years. Um,

28:24

termly they came into the school and

28:27

a couple of meetings at home and things like

28:29

that. So I was sort of expecting

28:31

this, you know, big file,

28:34

box file,

28:36

and it was one A4

28:38

sheet of paper and it was handwritten

28:40

note on it. And it

28:43

literally was scribbled on and it just said,

28:45

Mum's anxious, worried

28:47

about sports day. She's fine when

28:49

she's here. And it was just,

28:52

that to me was just

28:54

incredibly insulting. And

28:57

I've actually shared it quite a lot, which I

28:59

wouldn't normally do because I'm not into the kind of

29:01

mudslinging at all. I really want to

29:03

work together, but that to me

29:05

felt really disrespectful.

29:07

and I, uh, and particularly,

29:10

well one, the lack of the

29:12

lack of input and effort, and

29:15

the amount of upset and trauma.

29:17

That was every time I had to meet with

29:19

them. the disregard of, of

29:21

our situation. But the mom says,

29:23

I, I'm, I'm really upset

29:25

with that because I think that we

29:28

need it. It puts us on a different

29:30

level. As soon as you say that, you

29:32

are not saying. My

29:34

name, you're not seeing me on an

29:36

even keel, you're seeing me on a different

29:38

level to whoever's writing that or

29:41

listening. so it's little

29:43

things like that that are really important.

29:46

I think it also, there's, um, this

29:48

kind of separation of information that

29:50

comes from home versus information

29:53

that's gathered in school. And that those things

29:56

that there's a hierarchy there,

29:57

Yeah.

29:58

that I think. That

30:00

could again be, that's quite a simple fix.

30:02

Just actually, just because

30:04

you haven't seen it with your own eyes doesn't

30:06

mean that, you know, I share my own personal

30:09

experience. Recently I had an Ed Psych report from

30:11

my son that just said, parents report

30:13

sensory needs at home. And then that wasn't,

30:16

that wasn't. mentioned again

30:18

at all in the whole assessment. It's

30:20

like, of course, there's no sensory needs when you're sat in a small

30:22

office, but have you tried taking him to a cafe

30:24

that smells funny? Or put socks on in

30:26

the morning? Or all this long

30:29

list of things, which are really actually impactful and

30:31

upsetting for him and

30:33

for us. And because

30:35

it doesn't influence the school day, just get

30:37

one sentence on the report. And it's that kind of.

30:39

parceling up and the hierarchy of what's

30:41

important and what's not that I think is,

30:44

is quite difficult.

30:46

and I think that, I think one

30:49

of the really difficult things is for

30:51

parents to sit

30:54

in that room And have a meeting

30:56

with whoever it is, whether it's the class teacher

30:58

or the SENCO. and share those

31:01

difficult, difficult things about

31:03

what it is like with your

31:05

child. You

31:07

know, I'm not saying everyone

31:10

can be kind of trauma informed, but

31:12

to understand how traumatizing

31:14

that is for a parent to say, that

31:17

things are horrendous at home. We

31:19

are very very vulnerable when we're saying

31:21

this stuff, and we're often asked to keep

31:23

sharing it as well. There

31:26

isn't much mindfulness of

31:28

what that does to people's mental

31:30

health, We

31:33

just need to, I

31:35

mean, ideally we would have more trauma

31:37

informed practice, but, you know, it

31:40

is that kind of thing that I hope I kind

31:42

of convey in the book, is that

31:44

how hard we

31:46

are all trying, the family and the

31:48

child, to do what school

31:50

want us to do, and

31:53

we very much won't be sitting in a meeting

31:55

and saying, how dreadfully

31:58

hard it is if it wasn't dreadfully hard.

32:00

It's a very difficult thing to admit as a

32:02

parent that what you're doing is not enough.

32:07

If we talk about one of your other more

32:09

recent books, Thumbsucker, can you give an

32:12

introduction to anybody who's listening

32:14

who maybe hasn't read it yet?

32:15

so Thumbsucker is

32:18

about my

32:20

childhood growing up in the 80s

32:23

in suburbia. Undiagnosed

32:26

autistic. So I used

32:28

the different names that I was called

32:31

because of my behavior or

32:34

how I presented to others. So

32:36

I've used those things like chatterbox,

32:40

fickle, hypochondriac.

32:43

then I've put stories to

32:46

hopefully reframe how

32:48

people see those things, those presentations

32:51

and those names that were linked to

32:54

those presentations. and

32:56

there's lots of, 80s references

32:58

like Bergerac is in

33:00

there, salad cream sandwiches, all

33:03

the really essential things for childhood

33:06

at that time. but I've also hopefully

33:09

shown. It

33:13

was difficult the bit with my parents because I wanted

33:15

to show, obviously

33:17

it was baffling to them, a lot of this

33:19

stuff. the meltdowns and

33:21

the holidays and the meals that were seemingly

33:24

ruined. But I also wanted

33:26

to show that actually, you know, they were

33:28

pretty low demand. I talk a lot

33:30

about low demand parenting in my work. They

33:32

were pretty low demand. The fact that there,

33:35

I did have this sort of restricted eating,

33:38

and they were able to just make me a salad

33:40

cream sandwich probably did save

33:42

me, um, because they, they

33:45

were very relaxed with me overall.

33:48

and that was. really

33:51

helpful. but I think the confusion

33:53

was the difficult bit, but you know, knowing

33:55

they were confused or disappointed, was

33:58

a big weight on my shoulders for sure.

34:02

And so therefore, have you found, has diagnosis

34:05

later in life been a

34:07

liberating experience to kind of, to

34:09

put all of those experiences through

34:12

that lens, I guess, of being able to, frame

34:14

your experiences within what you now have

34:16

as, as a diagnosis.

34:18

Yeah, definitely. Because I think what it does

34:20

is it, I mean, I think there's

34:22

quite a hefty essay at the, at the back

34:24

by, Dr. Naomi Fisher,

34:26

who's a clinical psychologist, about

34:29

how important it is that we can For

34:32

adults, it's a reframing

34:34

of our lives. It's a rewriting

34:36

of our lives. For a

34:39

lot of us who think that we are wrong

34:41

the way we are, we grow up

34:43

being people pleasers. We

34:46

don't, we, we lose a sense

34:48

of importance of self and we

34:50

do what others want

34:52

or we think that they want of us.

34:54

And ultimately that's a really

34:58

You know, unhappy place to be when

35:00

you're doing that. and so getting

35:02

a diagnosis means you can look back

35:05

on that and kind of rewrite it. and

35:07

then sort of move

35:10

forward, hopefully being a bit more

35:12

authentic to your own needs. But that

35:15

takes time. You know, I'm still doing it,

35:17

figuring out what I actually do like and don't

35:19

like. Because the problem

35:21

is when you Um,

35:23

when your behaviour, as it

35:25

would be called, is deemed to not

35:27

be appropriate, to the, you

35:30

know, for example, the levels of distress

35:32

you feel when you go to an Indian restaurant

35:34

and there's nothing you can eat, you

35:36

learn to suppress that distress.

35:39

Um, and the problem with that is that

35:41

then as an adult, you don't know what

35:43

is good for you and isn't good for you.

35:46

so. One of the

35:48

things my therapist said is just stick to

35:51

does it, does this feel good or not?

35:53

Don't worry about analysing it, does

35:55

it feel good or not? Now that probably seems

35:58

really simple for a lot of people but it's certainly

36:00

not as a late diagnosed autistic

36:03

person. It's very much figuring

36:05

out the world now.

36:06

And did you come to the awareness

36:09

around your own autism

36:11

through, through your experiences as being a parent?

36:14

Mm-Hmm.

36:14

I knew when I was going into that

36:16

environment again, that school environment,

36:19

that it felt horrendous. And

36:21

I knew that I

36:23

was masking. So

36:26

much at the school gates

36:29

in, in the, in those meetings,

36:31

it was exhausting. And

36:34

in fact, I met up with an

36:36

old friend from school who was

36:38

a parent at school who also is late

36:40

diagnosed. And she said, Oh, I

36:42

would never have believed you autistic. She

36:44

said, you convinced me you were the most neurotypical

36:47

person I'd ever met. And this was on Saturday.

36:49

I've just seen her for a coffee. And it made me

36:51

cry because it showed how much

36:54

I was trying to. cover

36:57

up myself, you know, convince

36:59

people. and that was certainly ramped

37:01

up being in that school environment for me,

37:04

but it was meeting people through

37:07

the work I do now, I just felt really

37:09

comfortable with them. Um, and I

37:11

didn't feel that need to mask and

37:14

actually it creates more authentic connections

37:16

because when you stop masking, it

37:18

is the real you a lot more and you

37:21

suddenly think, Oh, people are kind of, reacting

37:23

in a, is easier now

37:26

because people are, I guess, probably when

37:28

you're masking, people are really confused as

37:30

to who you are and they can't get a handle

37:32

on you. so actually you think that the masking

37:35

is really working. but it's

37:37

actually creating quite a disconnect, I think,

37:39

with how you're connecting

37:42

with people.

37:43

Yeah. It's really interesting. And it's, I

37:45

guess getting the diagnosis, having that

37:47

isn't the end of the journey. There's a whole lot of

37:50

work afterwards and processing and, and

37:54

things like explaining to family,

37:56

friends, as well, it's, it's all part

37:58

of a long process, I imagine. Yeah.

38:01

definitely. And I think it, you know, you have

38:03

to give yourself a lot of time with that. And,

38:06

you know, it might be that it doesn't work with

38:08

everyone, or sit well with other people.

38:10

it might be that it gives people that

38:13

space to consider their own selves

38:15

a lot more. I've certainly found that with a lot of friends

38:17

and family that it's, it's, it's

38:20

almost a sense of relief with a lot of them

38:22

that they can admit who they Are

38:24

now..

38:25

Yeah. I think

38:28

kind of leads me on to another question that I

38:30

had, which is around the opportunity for

38:32

comics to kind of support children

38:35

and young people that are going through these kind of experiences

38:37

themselves. You've said that you found it

38:40

really empowering.

38:42

To be able to reflect on your

38:44

experiences and work through them using

38:47

comics as your tool. And I just, it

38:49

seems to me that there's a really powerful opportunity

38:52

to introduce this as

38:54

something that young people and children

38:56

can access as well to share their own

38:58

personal stories. I wonder what your thoughts

39:01

on

39:01

I think that would be great. Yeah, really good. And

39:03

I know that a lot of parents have said that they're Children

39:06

have read my books, which I'm really surprised

39:08

about, um, and, you know, I've

39:10

had some really lovely feedback from parents

39:13

saying that their children have read Thumbsucker

39:15

and said, you know, this is me, this

39:17

is how I feel, and that's, that's really

39:19

amazing, because that's, you know, what I

39:21

used to feel reading comics myself,

39:24

you know, this person is a bit

39:26

like me, um, when you feel

39:28

quite other, so that's been really

39:30

nice, and I think, You know, I'm

39:32

certainly aware that a lot

39:34

of books that children

39:36

are given to look at when they are

39:39

diagnosed autistic can feel quite condescending.

39:42

and there's a kind of inauthenticity to

39:44

that, you know, you're meant to be a sort of genius

39:46

or, you know, I think

39:49

people just want to know that they're

39:51

You know, as flawed as anyone else, really,

39:53

and, um, Yeah, so

39:55

that's been, that's been really nice, and I,

39:57

I do think it could be, if

39:59

that opens up, that other, if

40:01

young people feel that there's something that

40:04

they can connect with and that resonates with

40:06

them, then that, that's brilliant.

40:11

So we're coming to the end of the podcast and

40:13

I have a regular kind of way of wrapping

40:15

things up at the end. I wondered if you

40:17

could pick out some key takeaways

40:20

that might influence practice

40:22

from educators, listening, provide them

40:24

some food for thought just as we come to the end of the

40:27

I think, I think just try and be

40:30

authentic with the families

40:32

they meet and, you know, like I said earlier,

40:34

I think that we're often desperately

40:37

searching for that and, and I still

40:39

remember we had an Ed Pysch who

40:42

I do feel was really authentic

40:44

with us and did understand and

40:48

I still remember him and a lot of the things he

40:50

said. So those will be really important

40:52

for families to know that people

40:55

do understand. They're not saying that there's

40:57

a magic wand to wave. You know, it's

40:59

often a very complicated situation,

41:01

but, you know, be honest and all

41:04

say to families, you know, do

41:06

you want to have a really honest chat and,

41:08

you know, go, go radical with them

41:10

if you think that they want that and they can take

41:13

that. Cause I think often we've got to a place

41:15

anyway, where we're, We're not thinking our children

41:17

are going to attend every day. We're not thinking

41:19

they're going to get nine GCSEs.

41:21

We've moved away from that and we're just looking

41:23

for some light, really, and

41:26

to know that there are options and, you

41:28

know, try and give families options.

41:31

And our final thing is if

41:33

we were to add one comic or

41:35

a book about comics or a book

41:37

about autism, the kind of topics

41:39

that we've been discussing today, what book

41:42

would you recommend we added to our to be read

41:44

pile?

41:45

I would say if you're exploring

41:48

diagnosis as an adult for yourself,

41:50

I've just read Katherine May's

41:52

book, which is called The Electricity

41:55

of Every Living Thing. It's a really beautiful

41:57

book about a woman who goes walking,

41:59

exploring her own diagnosis, but also

42:01

it tackles sort of motherhood and

42:04

perhaps that overwhelm that a lot

42:06

of women will feel through motherhood,

42:08

um. and realizing that maybe

42:10

that's a lot to do with sort of their

42:12

own processing and sensory needs. So

42:15

I think it's a really brave, honest

42:17

book. and I'm just looking at my bookcase

42:20

now, what else would I recommend? Well

42:22

I love Letters to My Weird Sisters,

42:24

which is Joanna Lindbergh's book about,

42:26

perception of women through history,

42:29

and again the potential that maybe they were

42:31

actually neurodivergent. That's a really

42:34

good book. powerful book.

42:36

That sounds amazing.

42:37

Yeah, anything by Naomi Fisher

42:39

if you want to consider other ways to learn,

42:41

I think that's a really important. Her

42:43

work is very much about, the

42:45

classroom not being the only way

42:47

for children to learn, and gives a really

42:49

hopeful portrayal

42:52

of, of other, other things

42:54

for children and why that, why the classroom

42:56

may not work for lots of young people.

42:58

Thank you for those recommendations. And thank you

43:00

so much for coming on the podcast. I try not to gush

43:03

too much about people's work because they find it very awkward

43:05

if I just go on about how much I love their work when I'm

43:07

talking to them. But I do really love your

43:09

work. I found it hugely, inspiring

43:11

and beautiful. So thank

43:14

you for coming and talking on the podcast

43:16

and sharing, Your experiences

43:18

with the listeners. Thanks so much for coming

43:21

on.

43:21

Thank you.

43:24

There you have it. I hope you found that as fascinating

43:27

and eye-opening as I did, I would

43:29

wholeheartedly, or it comes as no surprise. I'll

43:31

wholeheartedly recommend you get a copy of Eliza's

43:33

books. I think they're incredible. And I'd love

43:35

to know your thoughts about what you've heard today.

43:37

If you've read the books, if you're going to read the books,

43:40

please do tag me on Twitter. Uh, X

43:42

don't like on X. do tag me on twitter to

43:45

get involved in the debate? I'd love to have conversations.

43:47

More conversations online as, as a result of

43:49

what people have listened to on the podcast, you

43:52

can find me on at Lucy

43:54

underscore Braidley. On Twitter and

43:56

you can find the podcast on Instagram at

43:58

comic underscore boom underscore podcast.

44:01

So I've been busy for those of you who

44:04

follow me on social media. You have seen that

44:06

last week. I was part of a team at

44:08

the national literacy trust that launched a report

44:10

into children's. Engagement

44:12

with reading comics. Very exciting.

44:15

So the report draws on data collected

44:17

from early 2023 from just

44:19

over 64,000 children, young people

44:21

aged eight to 18 from across the UK

44:23

and explores the attitudes and beliefs of comics

44:25

readers. Absolutely fascinating

44:27

open. So excited sitting on all this information,

44:30

just going to give you a few highlights, a few flavors.

44:32

The report is completely free to download available on

44:35

the national literacy trust. Website

44:37

and I'll put it in the show notes as well. so

44:39

some of the things that we found include

44:42

children and young people who read comics are more

44:44

engaged with reading regardless of

44:46

their age. So nearly twice

44:48

as many children and young people who read comics in their

44:50

free time told us that they enjoyed

44:52

reading. Compared to those who didn't

44:54

read comics in their free time. That's fascinating.

44:57

Isn't it? Something about that? Varied read

44:59

reading diet. Something about having that

45:01

access to arrive variety of reading

45:03

materials. I don't think it's just about

45:05

the comics, but there's a very interesting.

45:08

Things that we can infer from that data. More

45:11

of those who read comics rated themselves as very

45:13

good or good readers compared with those

45:15

who didn't read comics again, for

45:18

me that speaks to. self perception

45:20

as a reader, confidence, that

45:22

feeling of being able to complete

45:25

a text the way in which the images

45:27

support the understanding, but it's not

45:29

that it lacks challenge is just that it

45:31

makes content more accessible. I think that's really interesting.

45:34

More of those you read comics told us that they read

45:36

something daily in their free time compared

45:38

with their peers who did not read comics. So

45:40

again, Really entrenched

45:42

into, into those daily

45:45

reading habits. the Access.

45:47

The attitude. And the behaviors

45:50

all come in together. To to form.

45:53

What we see as a reader. And

45:56

one of the things that really interesting to me,

45:58

it was the answer to a why children read comics.

46:00

Readers of comics were motivated to read for a diverse

46:03

range of reasons. Children, young people

46:05

told us that they read comics because they're accessible.

46:07

Yes. Tick, uh, engaging

46:10

big tick. They supported their wellbeing.

46:12

Fantastic and provided opportunities

46:15

to learn about different cultures. Really,

46:17

really interesting. And one of the things

46:19

that I found so fascinating as well as we didn't actually

46:22

ask children about writing at all, we

46:24

didn't ask them about whether they wrote comics, where they made

46:26

comics in their own time, but they wanted to tell us, anyway,

46:28

they put that in the free text comment box.

46:30

They volunteered the information that they enjoyed

46:33

as well as reading. They also enjoyed making

46:35

comics or it's a small, but very

46:38

strong subset who, despite

46:40

not being asked, wanted to share that information. I

46:42

think there's something so interrelated between

46:44

that kind of reading and writing for enjoyment

46:47

that I'd love to explore more, absolutely

46:49

fascinating. And these findings, they

46:51

just highlight the importance of children

46:53

and young people having access to a real broad

46:56

range of reading materials, which include comics,

46:58

but it's not limited to comics. But comics

47:01

there and have just as much right

47:03

to be there on the library shelves in the classroom.

47:05

Ready to be accessed. What

47:07

are we doing? All the listeners of this podcast?

47:09

I'm sure are advocating for comics to be a

47:11

fun and legitimate reading format. And

47:14

if we continue to do that, then I think that It

47:16

will have a massive impact on the future generation of

47:18

readers. That report is quite

47:21

substantial. There's lots more in there.

47:23

So do dig it out and again,

47:25

share. I'd love to, share with me on

47:27

any social media platform, what you thought. Got

47:30

a shout out today from comic scene. You

47:33

may remember, earlier in the year,

47:35

Comic boom was nominated in the comic

47:37

scene awards for the best podcast.

47:39

We didn't win, but we don't mind.

47:42

It's an accolade just to be nominated. so thank

47:44

you, whoever nominated us. Comic scene, have a

47:46

Kickstarter going on for a

47:49

comic called Tara Togs the silence

47:51

of unicorns. I'm going to read you a little bit more.

47:53

It looks really, really cool. It has done

47:55

in the style of Herge

47:58

and I love Tintin. So it really

48:00

caught my eye on the center over I'm.

48:02

So set in modern times, Scottish adventure,

48:04

Tara togs dreams of becoming a professional

48:06

photographer and her knack for being in the wrong

48:08

place at the wrong time lands her smack

48:10

bang in the middle of a gang of ruthless criminals.

48:13

And their plot to steal a valuable piece

48:15

of art. Tara togs

48:17

silence of the unicorns by Stref took

48:19

five years to complete. Steph is

48:21

the pen name, Stephen White, who is a writer and

48:23

artist he's worked on Beano dandy vis

48:26

and on other characters, such as Peter pan

48:28

raising Amy. And so on.

48:30

It's a 72 page graphic novel work,

48:32

inspired by Herge and,

48:35

in the Tintin book format. But it's a new story

48:37

with this new character. Tara Togs looks very

48:39

Tintin -ish. But a girl version. you

48:41

can read the six page prologue on the Kickstarter

48:44

that's there. So you can try before you buy. It

48:46

looks so cool. Really did. Take my

48:48

fancy, especially if you're a fan

48:50

of Herge but we're looking for something a bit more modern.

48:53

I think the Kickstarter is eight pounds to

48:55

get digital copy, 10 pounds to have the

48:57

printed copy sent to you. I think It's open till

48:59

the 18th of April. So it's only a couple of weeks

49:01

to get involved in that Kickstarter. If you're interested, I'm

49:03

going to be signing up for it. I think it looks really cool. that's

49:05

it for this episode, it's been a bit of a mini

49:07

season of comic boom. This time

49:09

we only do 10 episodes, a little. The nice punchy

49:11

six episodes this time, but we will be

49:13

back in the summer terms. There's not going to be very long.

49:16

And excitingly, the podcast has

49:18

a sponsor next season. Which

49:20

is brilliant. It means that I can do some,

49:22

work to hopefully over the course of the season,

49:25

improve the website and it's, yeah, it's great.

49:27

To be able to have a little bit of funding

49:29

going into cover the cost

49:31

of the recordings. We use a system

49:34

that have to subscribe to monthly, to do the recordings

49:36

and to do the editing and another

49:38

system to get it out onto all of the

49:40

different podcasting platforms. So it's not a free endeavor.

49:43

So I'm. Absolutely delighted to be able to have a little bit of

49:45

funding to help support it. But thank

49:47

you so much for being passionate

49:50

and lovely. I've had the pleasure

49:52

in various events recently to meet some

49:54

podcast listeners. and it's been absolutely

49:56

lovely. So thank you for listening. There's

49:58

lots of exciting stuff coming to you

50:00

in the summer term. So watch

50:03

this space. You've been listening to

50:05

comic boom, which is produced and

50:07

hosted by me, Lucy Starbuck Braidley,

50:10

have a great break and see you in

50:12

the next season.