0:05

It's never

0:05

actually going to go away. I know a lot of people

0:07

say like, we are going to sunset this, that, and the other,

0:10

right? That's Jessica Cherry,

0:12

and she is sharing some hard truths

0:14

about working in the tech industry that

0:16

a lot of people probably don't want to hear.

0:20

You're going to work with legacy technology, whether

0:22

you'd like it or not. So you

0:24

may as well learn about it.

0:33

Sun OS still has paperwork out

0:35

there. Tape system, tape system

0:38

still exists for the nuclear stuff because you definitely

0:40

can't have that. It's not going to go away,

0:42

it's better to learn and, you know,

0:45

rather than pretend it's not there, right?

0:48

In the next several episodes of Compiler,

0:50

we're diving into the world of legacy technology,

0:53

which as it turns out, is an indispensable

0:56

part of our world.

0:59

We're going to cover so-called antiquated languages

1:02

to hardware that may have started running before

1:04

you were even alive. All of them have

1:06

their place for better or for worse. We're

1:09

going to try and convince you that more often

1:11

than not, for your career, it'll

1:13

end up being for the better. This

1:19

is Compiler, an original podcast

1:22

from Red Hat. We're your hosts. I'm

1:24

Angela Andrews. And I'm Brent

1:27

Simino. We go beyond the buzzwords

1:29

and jargon to simplify tech topics.

1:32

Today we hear why working on legacy

1:34

technology could actually be a good

1:36

thing. Producer Johan Philippine

1:39

is here to tell us why.

1:43

Today's episode is a broad defense of working

1:45

with legacy technology. First,

1:48

let's poll our hosts. Brent, what

1:50

do you think about when you hear the term legacy

1:53

technology? When

1:57

I think of legacy technology, it's like the

1:59

thing in the... a closet that's all duct taped together.

2:02

No one really knows how it works, but

2:04

it's just in the closet

2:07

humming along. It just

2:10

works. Don't touch it too much.

2:13

Don't touch it. Angela, what about you? When

2:16

I think legacy technology, I

2:18

think punch cards, five

2:20

and a half inch floppies, zip drives,

2:23

a server in a closet that

2:25

is covered with coats and

2:28

dust, and

2:29

whatever else, and it's still running.

2:32

No one knows why, but you better

2:34

not touch it. Yeah. We've all

2:37

seen those, haven't we? What

2:39

I'm hearing from both of you is that old technology

2:42

clearly fits in this definition

2:44

of legacy technology.

2:46

What Kim and I have been stumbling

2:49

into while doing our research for these episodes

2:51

is that there's no clear

2:54

line you can draw as to what is

2:56

and isn't legacy technology. How

3:00

recent

3:00

can we go in terms of the

3:03

newest legacy

3:05

technology?

3:06

We couldn't find a formal definition anywhere, but

3:08

we're going to need to work with something for these episodes.

3:11

Here's what we're going to define it as.

3:16

Legacy technology is hardware,

3:19

software, or any technology

3:21

system that is outdated, which

3:24

to me means that there's likely

3:27

a newer alternative or

3:29

its use has been phased out entirely.

3:31

Oh, okay. Now, Angela,

3:34

what's been your experience working with a

3:36

legacy system?

3:37

I have a lot of experience with them because

3:40

I've worked in smaller colleges

3:43

and smaller companies, and

3:46

there's always been

3:48

this system that is

3:50

really outdated and should

3:52

have been updated or upgraded months

3:55

or years ago, but it's still

3:58

chugging and no one knows why.

3:59

and you can't touch it. And

4:02

working here, I find that when

4:05

you come across folks that are still running

4:07

older versions of a software, they have

4:10

really good reason to still be doing

4:12

it because there's something that's running

4:14

on it that is just so mission critical

4:17

that it cannot be touched at the moment.

4:19

It cannot be containerized,

4:21

you know? It cannot be modernized.

4:24

It could be the language that's running on top of

4:26

it. It could be a myriad of reasons, but I've

4:28

learned that although my

4:29

knee jerk is to be a little like, oh, poo

4:32

poo, but now it's understanding

4:34

that this is happening

4:37

for a reason. And you have to understand

4:39

that we don't want to stay in the past,

4:41

but sometimes we have to.

4:43

One thing I've heard from a lot of technologists

4:46

is that legacy technology is very

4:48

pervasive. Has

4:51

that been your experience to you, Angela?

4:52

It is. I hear it more and more

4:55

now that I'm an essay here where

4:57

folks just can't move off of something.

5:00

And we want them to because it's for the

5:02

security reasons. It's for the feature

5:04

sets, but there's something in their

5:06

environment that doesn't allow for that. And

5:09

we, as technologists, we have to

5:11

respect that.

5:12

Yeah. So, Johan, tell me

5:14

if this is right, but chances are

5:16

if you are starting your career

5:19

as a technologist, there is a good

5:22

chance you are going to come into

5:24

contact with some legacy system.

5:27

That's what we've found, that's what we've heard. And

5:30

it's something that a lot of new

5:33

technologists, people who are new to their technology

5:36

careers, they see this as

5:38

something to dread, right? They think that

5:40

I'm gonna get my first job and I'm gonna

5:43

be stuck working on something

5:45

that's super old rather than working on

5:47

the latest and greatest kind of stuff. There's

5:50

a perception out there that working

5:52

with legacy technology is gonna be a drag

5:54

on your career. It'll slow you down

5:56

and allegedly prevent

5:59

you from getting good jobs. down the line because you're

6:01

not getting experience with the latest and greatest

6:03

technologies that are building the

6:05

exciting applications and things like that.

6:08

We've seen it countless times all over the internet,

6:10

especially from new grads looking for advice

6:13

on how to make sure they don't end up stuck

6:16

working on older technology.

6:22

Jessica Cherry, the infrastructure engineer

6:25

and open source technologist that we heard

6:27

from at the top of his show has

6:29

a very good reason why trying

6:31

to avoid legacy technology is not

6:34

a realistic goal.

6:35

I have had this happen at every single job. Yeah,

6:38

I have been hired

6:41

to do stuff that was not anywhere

6:43

near my job title.

6:46

I show up for a job, do the interview, this is what you're

6:48

going to be doing. What I'm doing is completely different

6:50

than what I was told I'd be doing. I have

6:53

been handed stuff that is just here's a black

6:55

box, have fun.

6:56

Here's a black box.

7:00

And that black box that she's

7:02

referring to, and those are systems that no

7:04

one else wants to work with because it's old,

7:07

because there's little documentation.

7:10

And it's often not something that

7:12

early on in your career anyways, you've worked on

7:14

before. So you're

7:16

handed this black box and you've got to figure out what

7:19

it is and how it works. Because

7:21

at this point, it is part of your job. And

7:24

switching jobs might just mean getting handed

7:27

another black box, right at the new

7:29

place.

7:30

Now one quick caveat, she later

7:32

elaborated that a lot of the times when she's

7:34

starting a new job, she'll have a host

7:37

of things that she was told to do. And

7:39

on top of that, there's this other black

7:41

box that she's handed that she needs to work with as

7:44

well. They're not going to put that in the job description. No,

7:46

right. They're not going to put that in the job as she's most

7:48

reputable places anyways, they're not going to hire you and

7:50

then completely change your job to

7:52

something different. Hopefully,

7:55

oh, Angela rolled her eyes there. Oh, boy.

7:59

Sounds like there's a story.

7:59

there. There's always a story.

8:04

Okay, so you get this box. What

8:07

do you do with it? Like,

8:09

how do you...

8:12

You try to log into it and see

8:14

what's on it. Like, what else are you

8:16

supposed to do? Hopefully they still have

8:18

the credentials. Usually they do. It's on

8:20

a sticky note taped to the side of the server.

8:23

Because again, no one knows what it

8:25

does. So you have to log into it and see, you

8:27

have to get the lay of the land.

8:29

You have to understand exactly. How do you do that though?

8:32

You click in around. Now

8:35

we can, you know, not... We Google, we

8:37

figure out, oh, what's the software called? Well, what

8:39

does it do? Or, you know, we look

8:41

at the network traffic. Well, where is it going? Who's

8:44

accessing it? When's

8:46

the... Check the logs. What's happening on

8:48

here? You have to get an idea of

8:51

what other things are installed, if there's

8:53

any services that depend on one another,

8:56

how it all works. And you just try

8:58

to make a map of what this thing is

9:00

doing and understand who its stakeholders

9:03

are. Maybe you go talk to them.

9:05

Maybe they have some idea, you know. You

9:07

have to start somewhere. So the first thing you do is

9:10

you log in.

9:12

That can't be the only thing though, right, Johan? Yeah.

9:15

I mean, if you're really, really

9:17

lucky, you have a Paul.

9:22

Paul is your single point of failure.

9:25

Paul knows everything. If Paul gets

9:28

run over by a bus, you have a problem.

9:29

I'm going to call the

9:32

name out as Paul because I had a Paul,

9:34

right? You become friends with Paul because

9:37

Paul knows everything and that makes your job a

9:39

lot easier to hang out and be like, dude, can I

9:41

just write notes and hang out with you for like 15 minutes,

9:44

please? I've known a Paul. I have

9:46

been a Paul. I

9:50

have a Paul in my life right now too.

9:53

They're invaluable. Don't

9:55

let anything happen to them because,

9:57

yeah, you wouldn't know what

9:59

to do.

9:59

If my Paul ever leaves, we're

10:02

done for. Like, we're just done for.

10:06

Everybody should have a Paul. Yeah.

10:09

Hopefully, in the best case scenario, you

10:11

have a Paul who will teach you about the black

10:14

box. And at some point down

10:16

the line, you'll teach someone, and

10:18

they'll teach the next person. It keeps

10:20

the system alive and running and

10:22

the business operating. But you're still

10:25

kind of stuck with that hit by a bus problem.

10:29

So what do you do when you don't have that unbroken chain

10:31

of knowledge to pass on the sacred scrolls? Jessica

10:35

has found that she can figure things out,

10:38

much like Angela was just describing, though

10:40

it'll probably take a bit more time and

10:43

be much less pleasant.

10:44

Sometimes I just wander around and look at stuff. It's

10:48

good to have the general interest

10:50

of what's going on here. That has always

10:52

been a little bit of my life in

10:54

general, where I'm all like, I wonder what happens if I

10:56

touch this. And my mom will tell you, this

10:59

poor girl just will fall into

11:01

a lake to see if it's wet. And

11:03

I am that person where I'm like, poke, poke.

11:06

Oh, no, I blew it up. And then

11:08

have to, which is they, my

11:10

buddy nicknamed me Armageddon for this very

11:12

reason. I will blow stuff up and be

11:14

like, I'll figure it out. Hold on. I'll bring it back.

11:17

And that kind of skill set is useful. So

11:20

Angela, just like you were telling us a few minutes ago,

11:22

you log in and you

11:25

try and figure out where the

11:27

system is talking to and what it's doing.

11:29

And you start poking here and

11:31

there and just kind of figure it

11:33

out. You just figure it out. And her

11:36

example, some of her pokes are dangerous.

11:39

I try not to take such an approach.

11:42

Well, we had an episode about this, right? Oh,

11:44

we had two. I'm not that adventurous. And they

11:47

were very good ones. But we've

11:49

all been that person who just wants

11:51

to poke the bear to see how something works.

11:54

And it's not always the best idea.

11:56

But

11:57

she's right. That is an

11:59

amazing.

11:59

skill set to have to try to be resourceful

12:03

and figure things out and kind of rebuild

12:06

and make it make sense. So

12:08

her skill set, it's invaluable. And

12:10

I like the fact that she goes into these black

12:13

boxes with that type of curiosity.

12:16

Yeah, taking down the test environments

12:18

can be very, very valuable

12:21

and good learning experiences. Just

12:23

try to make sure you're not pushing the big red button on the

12:25

production environment. What

12:28

does this do? What does this do? Oh, uh

12:31

oh. We've all

12:33

been there, yes.

12:35

What episode was that? Big

12:37

mistakes. Part one and part two.

12:40

Make sure you go back and listen so you know the private

12:42

joke we're laughing at.

12:49

Now, we talked about what legacy technology

12:51

could be. Sometimes it's a server

12:53

that's been running for a long time, but

12:56

it works and if you touch it, some crucial

12:58

part of the business no longer operates. Sometimes

13:02

it's a pet project with relatively

13:05

recent technology but hasn't

13:07

been regularly updated and is now

13:09

a liability, but getting rid

13:11

of it might have political ramifications in

13:13

the office. There are a lot of potential reasons

13:16

why even technology that people ideally

13:18

would want to update

13:19

ends up sticking around. Sometimes

13:22

it's money, sometimes it's

13:25

skill set. When you have something that's

13:27

been sitting there for longer than I've been alive,

13:29

you're not going to have a lot of people who

13:31

have the capabilities to do that, right? I'm

13:34

sure that our listeners, there

13:36

are a lot of people out there that they work

13:38

with who know that they're the people.

13:41

They know where the bodies are buried. And those

13:44

are the folks that you always want to keep

13:46

on your good side because they're

13:48

going to help you out in these

13:50

types of situations.

13:51

So be nice to

13:53

that person because there are some folks

13:56

who know the history and know the

13:58

story of an organization

13:59

things work and the ins and outs. And

14:02

maybe there's no formal documentation,

14:04

but sometimes there's these mental run

14:07

books up in people's head that they've kept

14:09

for all these years. And maybe

14:11

asking the right question could be of use. So

14:14

Jessica has taught us a bit about learning to

14:17

deal with legacy technology because

14:19

you are gonna need to deal with it at some point.

14:21

Our next guest is going to share why it's a good

14:23

idea to learn about tech history.

14:26

We spoke to Jim Hall, who's primarily

14:28

a tech consultant. He also leads

14:31

trainings and workshops and teaches

14:33

part-time about the history of technology. Okay.

14:37

And he puts a lot of emphasis on tracing

14:39

the origins of modern technology to

14:41

its roots.

14:45

It's how we got from there to here. And if you kind

14:48

of understand those milestones

14:50

are gonna happen along the way, you

14:53

kind of understand the

14:55

stuff that's around us today because it didn't

14:57

just appear out of nothing, right? So

15:00

it came from somewhere. So where'd it come from? We

15:02

had a really long conversation with Jim about

15:05

this specifically. And

15:07

he shared a lot of insights about how

15:09

the technology we have today is

15:11

built on the technology that we

15:13

had yesterday, the year before, right?

15:15

It's the whole idea that, you know,

15:18

we are standing on the shoulders of giants, right?

15:20

Where we are today is thanks to all of the

15:23

technology that existed in the past.

15:25

His classes are an introduction and

15:28

typically not taught to computer science

15:30

majors and the like, but he thinks

15:32

that they're missing out. There's some concepts

15:35

that people kind of forget in a modern context

15:38

that I think that it would benefit

15:40

them to know something about that history.

15:43

So for example, when people graduate,

15:45

when

15:45

people go with computer science students, when they go through

15:48

the programs today, they're learning modern

15:50

computer programming languages. They're learning about

15:52

modern methods because that's what you

15:54

teach. Yeah, it's 2023. You should be teaching

15:56

modern concepts. But when they graduate,

15:58

they're likely to...

15:59

experience some older technology.

16:03

I don't think it's likely that anyone's gonna find

16:05

Fortran today, but COBOL is possible.

16:09

Teaching COBOL in great depth would

16:11

probably take away from some of the

16:13

other skills building classes that computer science

16:15

majors have. But having a working

16:18

knowledge of the tech would kind of give them a head start

16:20

in some of the situations that Jessica shared

16:22

with us. Jim was telling us specifically

16:25

about COBOL and how there's a lot of parallels

16:27

between COBOL and Python, right? Python

16:30

is this huge language that a lot

16:32

of people use these days, but apparently

16:35

structurally, the two are very similar.

16:38

And just knowing that can kind of give you

16:40

a heads up and learning how to use COBOL

16:42

and program with COBOL and interface

16:45

with it when you're faced with a legacy

16:47

system that runs on COBOL,

16:50

right?

16:51

So in the beginning of the episode, we were

16:53

talking about how legacy

16:55

technology, it just exists,

16:57

it's pervasive, you're going to have to

17:00

work with it. What I hear

17:02

you saying now, Johan, is that it's

17:04

not something necessarily that we should just kind of

17:06

deal with, you know? That

17:09

maybe

17:10

there's actually something that we can learn from it. Yeah,

17:13

absolutely. When

17:15

we know the

17:16

roots of the technology

17:19

that we have today, and when

17:21

we can see the progression of how

17:23

things change from one iteration

17:25

to the next, it gives us a bit

17:28

of a better understanding of how

17:30

the technology that we use today, how the

17:33

more modern technology works, right? And

17:35

can give you a better working knowledge of how

17:37

to handle it and how to work with it, right?

17:42

The other way it could be beneficial is

17:45

that that legacy technology, it's still out

17:47

there, right? And if

17:49

you know how to work with it, you

17:52

can really kind of start building a career

17:54

out of making sure that people are

17:56

able to use that technology when that hit

17:59

the ground.

17:59

by the bus scenario happens, right? Oh

18:02

God, I hope that doesn't happen. I

18:04

hope not, but Johann has a point.

18:08

Sometimes it does make sense

18:10

to kind of familiarize yourself

18:12

with these technologies and don't run away

18:15

from them because they're still in

18:17

production. They're still running huge

18:19

businesses and infrastructures.

18:22

So we should not be afraid

18:24

of them and say, oh, that's old and

18:26

I don't really want to learn about it. We should definitely

18:28

try to take a different approach because

18:31

things don't go away quickly.

18:33

We should always take this opportunity to

18:35

look around at what was happening at the time,

18:37

right? Understand when this application

18:41

or whatever is running in this black box, what

18:43

else was happening inside of technology?

18:45

What did tech look like? So you can make

18:48

some kind of similarities. Look at who the players

18:50

were back then. Who's still around today

18:53

and what are they doing? It really

18:55

does help you understand the where

18:57

we came from and the where we are

19:00

now and bridge that gap in

19:02

between. I think if we thought of it more

19:04

as a history lesson

19:07

and an opportunity to enrich

19:09

ourselves, we'll be doing ourselves a big service

19:11

because it all came from somewhere and

19:13

technology is so interwoven. Why

19:16

not take the opportunity to learn a little

19:18

bit about

19:19

it? Yeah, it's like new

19:21

technologies don't come out of- Based on something.

19:23

They don't come out of thin air. Exactly. They

19:26

evolve from things that came before it and

19:28

you can probably hear echoes

19:32

or what's the metaphor I want to use?

19:34

Or if you look into its DNA,

19:37

you can see previous generations

19:39

past. There you go.

19:41

That's something that Jim literally does with

19:43

his classes is he'll start with

19:45

really old computers and

19:48

have the actual hardware in front

19:50

of the class and say, okay, here's the CPU, here's

19:53

what it does. Here's the memory, here

19:55

are the expansion slots. And then he'll

19:57

move from that to-

19:59

the next generation of computers, which is

20:02

a little bit more complicated, but

20:04

they can start showing like here

20:06

are the parts that they have in common, here are the additions,

20:08

and he does that iteration by iteration up

20:11

until you have an iPhone. And he shows

20:13

them a picture of an iPhone and they can say, oh,

20:15

okay, there's the CPU, there's the memory,

20:18

you

20:18

know, here are all the different components that

20:21

we have in common in between the iPhone and

20:23

these oldest computers. That's super

20:25

smart. That is fascinating. Yeah,

20:27

it's really wonderful.

20:29

I wouldn't mind taking that class. Yeah. I

20:31

would love to take that class too.

20:35

So we've been talking about Jim's classes,

20:38

but that's only part of what he does. He's also

20:40

a consultant and he recently

20:43

had a case to work on that

20:45

unfortunately had to deal with that broken

20:48

chain of knowledge. As

20:50

a consultant, I recently helped out

20:52

a client who was running free-dos

20:55

on some industrial equipment. Basically

20:58

all this had been set up by this person's

21:00

dad who had passed away and a key

21:03

piece of the equipment was running on free-dos. And

21:05

he

21:05

came in to take over the business and he didn't

21:08

know how to run this because,

21:10

I mean, DOS is 2023, why would you run DOS? DOS

21:14

was one of the first things that I used. I think I was like,

21:17

I don't know, five years old. And

21:20

do you remember how to use it? I

21:23

don't think I do.

21:24

But there's some parallels. If you get on a command

21:27

line in DOS, you

21:30

will be able to kind of figure things out

21:32

in the same way that you can kind of figure

21:34

things out in the terminal today.

21:37

So it had to come from

21:39

somewhere. There are parallels. I'm

21:41

sure you could figure your way around a DOS

21:44

command, Brent, given the opportunity.

21:46

So this situation is something

21:48

that Jim runs into all the time.

21:51

And thankfully he was able to help this person

21:53

quite a lot. So we went from like

21:56

at the beginning of that, not really knowing anything about

21:58

his specific system, and using it.

23:59

So what this is, this is a special archive file

24:02

and the program that can read that there were two

24:04

programs that read that And so here's the file.

24:06

Here's the program you probably want to go and find

24:10

The first thing I would do if I see a file

24:12

with an extension I had no idea

24:14

it was Google it like what? What

24:17

is this? Is this a virus? What

24:19

is this? What kind of files is it music?

24:21

Like I don't know but That's

24:23

how we start trying to figure out exactly,

24:26

you know, what is it? And then from there

24:28

you

24:29

Continue googling or find helpful

24:31

groups like these Yeah, good.

24:34

You have some like what an arc file is I

24:37

love that your first reaction when you don't know a file

24:39

extension is is this music? That

24:47

that's one thing to be a little bit careful

24:50

of right is sometimes if you Google something Some

24:53

of the malware sites out there have become very sophisticated

24:55

in that they'll

24:56

you know Take whatever your search query is and just

24:59

put it in their own answer and then you download whatever

25:01

software they have on there To say like oh, yeah

25:03

read this with this software and then it'll just

25:06

be careful that you're not downloading something malicious But

25:12

yeah that's why sometimes those

25:14

communities can be very useful or online

25:16

forums or something along those lines and they

25:18

can tell you You know which software

25:21

is safe and actually reputable for for

25:23

reading that these types of files that you

25:25

may encounter

25:27

That they're probably pretty friendly

25:29

communities who like probably enjoy

25:32

helping people out like this, right? I'd

25:34

certainly hope so

25:36

like Imagine

25:38

so think about what your favorite hobby was

25:40

when you were in third grade and

25:43

if other people shared that hobby

25:45

and you had a place that you could go to and

25:47

talk and Reminisce and talk

25:49

about the good times and the bad times about this

25:52

part in your life Those are sometimes

25:54

the best communities to be a part of

25:56

because you have that thing that

25:58

bond you

26:00

Now, unfortunately, those

26:02

people aren't gonna be around forever. So

26:05

it might be in our best interest to find

26:07

the Pauls and the Jessica's out there who

26:09

can pass on their knowledge and really

26:11

spend some time with them and learn what you can.

26:14

I like that idea. So

26:17

we're talking about legacy technologies in

26:19

this series, and in this

26:21

episode, we've really been talking

26:23

about how it's both pervasive

26:26

and persistent. Like,

26:29

there is no world

26:31

in which you are not going

26:33

to interact with legacy technology

26:36

in some form or fashion. Yep.

26:39

And it's not that we

26:41

just have to cope with it or deal with it or

26:44

something that we should run away from. Maybe

26:46

it's something that we can learn from, and maybe

26:48

it's something that we should in some ways

26:50

embrace and maybe even dig

26:53

into a little bit.

26:54

Mm-hmm. Now,

26:57

Johan, where are we going from here? This

26:59

is a series. Yep. Where

27:02

are we going with this? Well,

27:04

over the next few episodes, we're going

27:06

to talk about old languages. Mm-hmm.

27:09

We're gonna talk about hardware

27:11

specifically. Okay. And we're gonna

27:13

talk about old databases and a whole

27:16

host of other things. I can't wait.

27:18

Up next, we're gonna talk about the foundations

27:21

of technology that are literally gathering

27:23

dust. And that's legacy

27:25

hardware.

27:26

That's so cool. You know what?

27:28

I'm gonna go in my closet, and I'm just gonna start

27:30

digging through this tote I have that has all

27:33

this legacy cords

27:35

and peripherals and

27:37

adapters and whatever. And I'm never gonna

27:40

throw them away because you never know when you're gonna need them.

27:42

You never

27:42

know when you might need those cables. You never

27:44

know. So, I am so glad

27:46

we had this opportunity to jump

27:48

into this new series. After

27:51

you've given it a listen, tell us what you

27:53

thought about it. Do you have any legacy hardware

27:55

or software or anything where

27:58

you work? Tell us what it is because we want to...

27:59

know. Give us a tweet at Red

28:02

Hat. Make sure you use the hashtag

28:04

compiler podcast. We would

28:06

love to hear your stories. What kind of

28:08

legacy software is running where

28:10

you work? How do you work with it? Tell

28:13

us all about it.

28:17

And

28:17

that does it for this episode

28:20

of compiler. Today's episode

28:22

was produced by Johann Philippine and

28:24

Caroline Craig Kit. A

28:26

big, big thank you to our guests,

28:29

Jessica Cherry and Jim Hall.

28:31

Victoria Lawton makes sure we

28:33

recognize the Giants whose shoulders we stand

28:36

on. Our audio engineer

28:38

is Kristi Chan. Special thanks to

28:40

Sean Cole. Our theme song was composed

28:43

by Mary Anchetta. Our

28:44

audio team includes Lee

28:47

Day, Stephanie Wonderlich, Mike

28:49

Esser, Nick Burns, Aaron Williamson,

28:52

Karen King, Jared Oates, Rachel

28:55

Ortell, Devin Pope, Matthias

28:57

Foundas, Mike Compton, Ocean

29:00

Matthews, Paige Johnson and

29:02

Alex Trebulzi.

29:03

If you like today's episode, please

29:06

follow the show. Rate the show,

29:08

leave a review, share it with someone you know. It

29:11

really does help us out.

29:12

Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you next

29:15

time.

29:15

All right, next time.