0:00

Okay. Hold on.

0:02

Good afternoon, everyone. And welcome back to another conversation with Amoda Maa

0:04

Hello, Amoda Hello, Kavi

0:06

So today we are going to, it's kind of in the last two or three weeks, but always in the Amoda Maa teaching, we come across people who sort of have touched equanimity, touched

0:08

peace, touched the grace of beingness and found something like maybe one, it could even call it stable as an experience of awakened consciousness. And then crisis, now how we

0:10

define crisis will come up in this conversation. But a crisis may occur. And suddenly the storm is raging and suddenly, one is lost in the storm and there's a tendency, I think we're

0:12

talking about a tendency here for the for the advanced or maybe not even advanced spiritual seeker to feel that they've lost something, they've lost the grace, lost the peace, lost

0:14

the equanimity, and maybe even a sense of failure on the path of awakening, you know, because of this crisis that has come, bitten or unbidden. And so today we're going to kind of unpack that a little

0:16

bit, I'm going to ask Amoda questions about, you know, primarily, you know, in a nutshell, can crisis be a catalyst for transformation? So there's a lot in there because it seems very

0:18

relevant to being in the world really. This is the nature of how awakened consciousness kind of interacts with the world, which is a very dramatic crisis-oriented place. And maybe that's

0:20

just the human experience. So with that, all that being said, I'm going to hand the floor over to you, Amoda, to unpack this a little bit, to speak to it at the outset, and then we'll naturally kind

0:22

of flow along and see where it goes. Okay? Thank you. Yes, this is the spiritual seeker's dilemma. how to abide as peace, how to abide as presence in all circumstances. And the belief or the

0:24

sense that I got there and then something comes along in life and I'm no longer there is very common, very prevalent.

0:26

How to deal with this dilemma, how to approach this dilemma. There's a number of ways of exploring this, but perhaps we can start with,

0:28

First of all, if you like opening up our understanding of peace and presence, it's very common to believe that peace is an experience of nothing turbulent taking place.

0:30

that our peace is actually dependent on circumstances. And even for the spiritual seeker who's in some ways gone beyond that, when stuff happens,

0:32

it's easy to be sort of thrown back into that belief. or at least the desire to feel peaceful.

0:34

And so we have to kind of really open up to within ourselves an understanding or a knowing, or at least a willingness to know that there is a peace that passes all understanding,

0:36

that is not dependent on circumstances. And that's really pointing to the realization that that which is aware, that which is ever

0:38

present in all circumstances, whether they're turbulent or calm, is never changed. There's a quality of being, there's a quality of awareness that never changes.

0:40

And that's something that very often on the path is a deepening realization and one that when stuff happens, when crisis happens, when a challenge comes along, when intensity or

0:42

turbulence comes along. when we're, if you like, called to deepen that recognition. So what I'm kind of saying

0:44

here, as well as a number of things, is that awakening isn't a static state. So a true, found genuine awakening that brings us into the realization of true nature, it doesn't

0:46

stop there because the human journey continues and the human journey is like the waves on the ocean. It's always changing and turbulence can come and unexpected circumstances come

0:48

and that has nothing to do with awakening or not. And it's in those turbulent moments or circumstances or times of our lives, even in the awakened realization, the deepening into

0:50

what is really peace, what is really presence, what is really the recognition of awareness as the ever-present state. It's like it matures, it becomes more and more

0:52

matured or embodied through the experience of that crisis or turbulence. It's not that something's gone wrong, it's not that you've lost something,

0:54

it's a call to more fully, more deeply embody and realize it. So such circumstances, the storm is a powerful catalyst for a deeper transformation for the

0:56

embodiment of that transformation, the embodiment of that realization. And I think that knowing that, understanding that and really being willing to embrace that is the beginning of it. It doesn't

0:58

end. It's an ever deepening journey if you like. Because at some point we're all going to meet death and awaken or not that can also bring up fear or resistance or whatever hasn't really been

1:00

examined because we only meet death once. And it only, we can only meet it when it actually takes place. So there is another possibility to know the light of beingness. So every aspect

1:02

of life as we move through the human experience is another invitation, another invitation. So, I hear a lot in what you're saying. And the first thing is, in a way, I hear you

1:04

speaking to some of the sages of the past, or some of the wise ones, St John of the Cross, who, you know, some of these mystics, for instance, who found their freedom through suffering,

1:06

which is the same thing, because ultimately what we're talking about crisis is a modern word for its creating suffering.

1:08

Yes. And in a way, they're sort of nuanced modern idea, and particularly in the Western, individual

1:10

is that somehow spirituality is going to offer either an avoidance or a distance from the human experience which has suffering implicit within it, as you just said.

1:12

And so this is a, you know, you're talking about something which is very important to to understand it's not just about impermanence, it's about the crisis of being human, which

1:14

obviously has very many different ramifications for each human being by talking about not intellectualising it but actually becoming intimate with one's experience, whatever it is.

1:16

Yes, and so another way of saying this, or perhaps exploring this, is to invite within ourselves, the invitation is to meet reality without any commentary, without any

1:18

narrative, without this shouldn't be happening. This shouldn't be happening because I'm awakened. So if it is happening and I'm awakened or have realized a certain awakened consciousness,

1:20

then it means that I haven't, I'm not good enough spiritually, I haven't got there yet, I've lost it. And so this kind of battle ensues with reality. And so the invitation is that whatever

1:22

happens, whether it's crisis or injury or challenge or death or loss or something unexpected, to continually meet that without a commentary about it, to meet the nakedness of the experience,

1:24

which is part of the human experience. Pain is pain. Intensity is intensity. It's not something that gets erased. And to continually meet it, if you like, with the deepest surrender of the

1:26

narrating mind, and that's an ongoing invitation. Right, right. So I hear that very clearly from you, that it's an ever unfolding, ever

1:28

deepening journey. It's very alive. It's an alive inquiry. It's an alive meeting, meeting intimacy.

1:30

Yes, yes. And I think one of the primary errors, what we go back to the beginning of this conversation, is on the spiritual path, this either conscious or unconscious idea that if I realize something,

1:32

if I realize true nature, if I taste the grace of awakening and so on, that's it. That's it, that's the end. There's no more turbulence, there's no more, yeah, and so

1:34

on. And yes, the way that we meet turbulence changes. But when the next wave of turbulence comes, and that's unexpected, then we're called to meet that again in this way. And that's

1:36

often overlooked because of this idea that it shouldn't be happening. So yes, it's a living inquiry, it's a living embodiment. And we can go to the situation or the story or whatever it is

1:38

of Jesus on the cross. Who can we can say? Who we can say was the light of beingness, the embodiment of the light of God and yet when he's crucified, what does he say? Oh,

1:40

Father, why has thou forsaken me? What does that mean? That means that I've lost it. I've lost that light of Godness in me because I'm in so much excruciating pain. There's physical

1:42

pain. There's also psychological pain because of the injustice of it. He was crucified. It It was very unjust.

1:44

There was no reason he wasn't a criminal and so on and so on. And then he had to go deeper.

1:46

He had to go deeper than his. Vicked himself.

1:48

Oh, father, why has thou forsaken me? It's not the circumstance.

1:50

It's the internal experience. It's the internal landscape.

1:52

And I'd like to think that, you know, in that, he was able to go deeper into the peace that passes the understanding.

1:54

Was it just after he had said that, that then something deeper happened to him, and then he said into thy hands, I can't remember the exact words, I give myself,

1:56

which to me interprets in that way as a deeper surrender. Even this, even this, as the statement is right, even this. Because the world has injustice in it, the world has physical and

1:58

psychological pain in it, and the world has misunderstanding in it, and the world has division and this, that and the other. The world, the world is a, is a, is a, we could say a cesspit

2:00

of division. And Jesus was not immune to that. He lived in the world, in the marketplace, on, yeah, on a human level. And so even he had to meet a deeper place or be open or be willing

2:02

for a deeper surrender. And that's for all of us in a small way or a big way when the shit hits the fan, so to speak. So, can I ask you for, you know, I'm going to put you on the spot and say,

2:04

you know, and invite you, can you find something within yourself, you know, that some experience, a direct experience that is actually, because the kind of question is, as an awakened teacher,

2:06

that you are, had an experience many, many years ago, 20 years ago. But then there's still been a life, and we've had quite a life since I met you, that has involved much in the world. I mean,

2:08

And we moved to America with, you know, or meant so many things. They haven't always been easy.

2:10

What's happened to Amoda in that time? Has the boat been shaken?

2:12

Has the ground, you know, what's your human experience, your harmony between the two, ever unfolding journey.

2:14

I think looking back over host 20 years, there's been a very rich human experience and I mean rich in that it has many adepts and breaths of experience

2:16

both challenging and I don't know what the opposite of that is. Exquisitely beautiful.

2:18

Yes, all of that. And I would say that all of it has been met in the way

2:20

that we're speaking. Certainly, there has been no--

2:22

for myself, I can say that I did not rail against the turbulence of life.

2:24

It just wasn't my way. I think I'd come to such a deep place of surrender that I can't live any other way.

2:26

I can't be any other way. So whatever is is and whatever human experience it is, it is.

2:28

I don't think I don't feel that there's been any resistance to what is. There are some situations that sometimes are intense and require digging in deep.

2:30

But that's usually to do with a very worldly situation. Money.

2:32

And one that I'm perhaps not familiar with previously or have experience in or skill and need to navigate.

2:34

And that can be difficult. But I can honestly say that there's no, I got it, I lost it.

2:36

I can honestly say that there hasn't been any resistance to the human experience. I can honestly say that the abidance of presence and openness has never veered.

2:38

I mean, we can look back right from fairly early on after awakening, which is when we met.

2:40

And one was your journey of quite severe and sudden and chronic illness and the meeting of that.

2:42

And then very shortly afterwards, a few years after that, the death of my mother. And see, if you like, turbulence, that that created, which could have been drama.

2:44

But I think I can honestly say that wasn't met from the drama, from the victim. I think what ended for me through everything, categorically, was the victim's self.

2:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what came undone.

2:48

So whatever happens, I might not like it. Of course, I wouldn't certain things I don't like.

2:50

I'd rather they weren't happening. But I don't go there.

2:52

It's not like that. The victim of life, the victim of circumstances

2:54

truly has come undone. And even in the midst of those challenges

2:56

or feeling out of depth or what to do, what action to take. I think what always reveals itself, that everything is an opportunity for growth.

2:58

And in my case, I feel that the growth is actually on a worldly level. And the undoing of fear, you know, whether it's fear around money, which is something karmic and historical that I've

3:00

carried or the fear of, I don't know, whatever it is usually it's going to do with money, or, you know, to do with the mechanism of the world, which is a little bit like Jesus

3:02

railing against the tax collectors. It's that kind of situation. We had that right, didn't he? He had that right?

3:04

He did, yes. So, you know, the matrix of the world, which is actually built of unconsciousness and greed and corruption. And I don't rail against that, but you know, when it hits home,

3:06

there's a sense of that. But I feel it's a call to growth on a worldly level, on a human level. I don't feel that the abidingness, abidance of presence or openness actually ever changes.

3:08

It just is what it is. There's nothing. Yeah, I don't feel a victim. There's no kind of.

3:10

I hear you very clearly because in my experience of it has been through the rather dramatic sometimes the whole thing with me, your mother, and then America navigating the matrix of

3:12

the system in America has had its very hairy and still does have its very hairy kind of moments, but I would say that you've led the way between the two of us, primarily, I think,

3:14

because of the abidingness, because of the groundness, of the end of the victim self. And that in a sense is the end of the tight knot of me. So still the experiences continue, but their experiences

3:16

that come and then yes, they have an energetic impact and they need to be attended to. But it's almost like when they're done, they're done. The duck that gets into a kerfuffle on the pond

3:18

deals with it and then off it goes again. There's nothing like you said this morning in one of our events. There's nothing polluting about it anymore. So,

3:20

You know, whether one frames that as being a catalyst for transformation or just dealing with what is as it arises in a sort of synonymous in a way, but as what I hear is that the end

3:22

of the victim is the end of the tight knot of me. And I'd just like to say in sharp contrast for you, I think that's why you can speak

3:24

to it so well, because I think in the you that I didn't know, but the you that you've spoken about in the past, there was very much to me and there was very much the deep seated

3:26

sense of the victim of life. I mean, I would still say that you were probably mystically talented or you gifted or graced or something even during those times. But there's the end

3:28

of the victim, which is why I think you know this very well. Yes, you're absolutely right. I think that's the way it was. I think I had a natural proclivity

3:30

to surrender as a way of being. But I did carry a sense of punishment being punished by life being I'm loved by God really. And it was subtle and it was hidden and sometimes it played itself out

3:32

out, and certainly it came more and more to the forefront of my, you know, awareness, conscious awareness that that was a something that I was, that was playing out in me. And

3:34

it came to an end by itself in awakening. I didn't know it was awakening, but then I I realized that's what it was.

3:36

Yes, it's no longer here. And what's also realized and is

3:38

sort of the foundation or the ground is, I really saw, I really knew, I really realised it's all a dream.

3:40

It's all a dream and yet we have no escape from it. We are in life as life as long as we're alive and knowing it's a dream, seeing through the veils

3:42

doesn't make it less exquisitely beautiful or exquisitely horrible. Yeah, it is what it is. The dream is the Leela. The dream is the playing out of the Leela, the polarity, the duality,

3:44

the black and white, the up and down, the left and right, the sun and moon, the night and day. the pain and pleasure all of it plays itself out and that's inescapable whilst we're alive.

3:46

And yet it's impermanent yet it's like the waves that are constantly rolling on the ocean. They never stop, they can be calm or they can be stormy and it's forever the waves and yet

3:48

as long as we're alive to experience the waves. And yet, all the waves are, if you like, moving and playing themselves out, the Leela is expressing itself in the ocean of beingness.

3:50

And the energetic realization of the ocean of beingness, and you know, even oceans not quite right, because an ocean has a kind of coast around it, but really, an ocean that has no

3:52

beginning or end. There's no coastline. There's no shore. It's a common down. Eternal. It is the eternal ocean-ness of it, which is the oneness, the totality. When

3:54

that's truly realized energetically, not intellectually or philosophically or conceptually, energetically, Then the waves are just the waves and they're not separate from that.

3:56

And when the one who is alive and has conscious awareness, this form comes to an end, or at least this vehicle comes to an end, then that dream is undone, that Leela is undone.

3:58

It will continue in another conscious awareness. But it just sort of changes everything.

4:00

It undoes the victim, it undoes the drama. There's only the exquisiteness of the human experience which has extremes of one entity

4:02

to the other. You were, when you were young, you were found yourself and be notes to you, unbidden by

4:04

you probably I would hope in a kind of war situation in the Mediterranean and Europe. And I know that that had a huge impact on you as a child, but then subsequent to that,

4:06

the dislocation, the shock, the trauma, if you like, endured for many a year. In fact, it shaped some of your life. I just want to include that because the wars are raging everywhere.

4:08

I mean, it could happen here in the US. Everybody, there are lots of warmongers and they're always have been, but there is certainly a war consciousness that's arising as well as the peace consciousness

4:10

at the moment. There's a threshold when the bombs start dropping that you haven't got the luxury of contemplating, "How am I going to meet this?" And that becomes beyond even direct, really.

4:12

I'm not sure what I'm actually asking you here, I'm just kind of wanting to speak to the impact of that, if in a way. Well, there's two, I think there's two, having use of dialogue here.

4:14

One is how it was then, and the other one is perhaps considering how it would be now. Yes, I think so because the conversation can be from an awakened in a way,

4:16

it certainly as a child, and by the way, it wasn't Europe. Oh, yes, it wasn't Europe.

4:18

It wasn't part of the European Union. It was a British colony.

4:20

Oh, yes, yes, it was, yes. And then it wasn't.

4:22

So as a child, and I was 11, 12, 13, it was terrifying. That's all I could say.

4:24

As a child, I went completely into trauma. As a child, I didn't feel protected by my parents because they were children too.

4:26

As a child, it was a huge shock. As a child, my nervous system was impact and I became mute, literally mute and very contracted.

4:28

And that carried over into my early life, you know, early adult life. And it, yes, it shaped my experience.

4:30

It shaped my, I don't know if you'd call it personality, but it shaped my expression, my way of being in the world

4:32

and what people perceived and how I perceived myself and so. No, we don't need to necessarily go into more detail,

4:34

but how is it now? Well, I really can't tell you.

4:36

I don't carry that trauma anymore. I don't carry that contraction.

4:38

I can remember it, but I don't go back there to relive it or to resolve anything. It's done.

4:40

It certainly opened my up to the possibility, even at a very young age, that anything can happen anywhere.

4:42

What I found when I came back, we did originally live in England. I was brought up in London.

4:44

But when we returned to London after the war, we were evacuated. I was quite struck by a certain understandable complacency that war happened.

4:46

I didn't really speak to anyone back. But war happens somewhere else.

4:48

War happens in the unfortunate countries. War happens in the, I don't know,

4:50

underprivileged countries or the ignorant countries or whatever it might be.

4:52

It doesn't happen in the civilized countries. Although of course, first World War,

4:54

second World War did happen in the civilized countries, but at my age, that was not a reality for my peers.

4:56

And I was struck by that. And I think I carried with me the very real possibility

4:58

that anything can happen anywhere at any time. And that was actually something very valuable

5:00

because I didn't sort of fall back into complacency or privilege or some imagined safety or comfort zone.

5:02

I didn't experience life like that. And certainly my life wasn't like that.

5:04

it was full of unexpected changes and losses and so on. How would it be now not carrying that trauma

5:06

and not carrying that, yeah? Well, I can honestly tell you, I just don't know.

5:08

I really don't know. I can't even imagine it

5:10

because I don't live in the imagination. to say, well, it's not gonna really bother me.

5:12

I'll be abiding in peace or anything like that. I have no idea, Cali.

5:14

If war struck, I'm sure there'd be a terror.

5:16

I'm sure there'd be, oh, no, not this. I don't know.

5:18

And maybe then there'd be a deeper, just like Christ on the cross, Jesus on the cross.

5:20

I can't remember the phrase, but in this I give myself to you. It's almost like what will be will be. And I expect without expecting that that would be part of it. And yet the

5:22

the physical organism, the physiological organism, the human alive, yeah, will probably be terrified. Of course, it's a natural reaction response to danger when contracts into a ball.

5:24

It's a very primitive primal sort of experience. I mean, every creature will do that.

5:26

You do what you need to protect yourself and so on. But there's a certain place where you have no control.

5:28

And I would imagine that I would not go mute again like I did when I was a child. Yeah, there's a maturity now and so on, you know, that we allow that.

5:30

So but I haven't got a clue. So I think I just wanted to include that as a, you know, just to include that very real

5:32

experience because there are people experiencing it now, you know, and it does kind of, it does bring it home all the time and does kind of make it really sort of touches me somewhere

5:34

very, very deeply that experience because you and I investigate the human experience and the insanity of the rampant egoic even mechanism as it's manifesting in the world at the moment,

5:36

which is close to a kind of insanity, who has been around for a long time, but is inflicting itself on many folks. And I think when you're speaking, I hear a difference between going back

5:38

to what we were talking about at the beginning, which is the kind of crisis. Some of that is crisis of a domestic kind, of a smaller kind, but then creates the kind of contraction. And then what

5:40

we're talking about is that almost the other end of the pole here, that is a very direct, sort of visceral animalistic. If somebody's going to start bombing you, you're going to respond

5:42

like an animal, nothing that spirituality will do to change that. One's reflection, or into a relationship to it might have some bearing, but actually, I think we were talking,

5:44

weren't we, in a way, at the beginning about the crisis of one's own, finding it, losing it, having it, which can happen really, very easily. Many human beings are living

5:46

on the edge of that, you know, can be derailed by something that comes through the mail, can be derailed by a family member, can be derailed by the partner leaving.

5:48

Say enough, I've had enough of you, this relationship, and I'm off. That creates this kind of crisis where we're back in the identified self again. So there are degrees of this.

5:50

Yes. I mean, I don't think now that we're speaking of it that I would go into victim modality. No, I know. Why is God punishing me? That's the ultimate victim modality.

5:52

that that wouldn't be the case. It's just what happens. It's the nature of the world in its current state of consciousness. It's a tragedy, it's, yeah, and so on. But it's not a punishment from God.

5:54

So I would like to think that that would not be the case that, you know, yeah.

5:56

So let me, you know, we're kind of going to probably bring this to an end. And at some point, I hear what you're saying is a kind of all embrace it going

5:58

back, not talking about war now, but talking about experience. I'm reminded of Krishna Murthy, the great Krishna Murthy. Let's just go to this one for a minute. The great Krishna

6:00

Murthy said to his students, the difference between you and me is that I don't mind what happens. I know when I heard that, it completely destroyed me and has done pretty much ever

6:02

sense because I couldn't doubt but believe him in what he was saying. And if I believed in what he was saying, there was a human being who could actually deal on a level with that

6:04

quinimity with what happens inside him, inside him primarily. And he's kind of speaking to that because I don't mind what happens. For many of us on the path would be separated into,

6:06

Well, I do mind this and I don't mind that. That's what we're talking about. I do mind this. But when that happens, I'm back in self. I don't mind. And what I hear you speaking to is a sort

6:08

of way of speaking to that, which is all embracing. Is it possible? I always like to ask the question, is it possible for us to open more and more and more?

6:10

Like I say from my own direct experience, yes. The end of the argument with what is,

6:12

is the end of the veiled perception.

6:14

What is is? Whatever is in your experience,

6:16

which is always an internal experience, even if it seems to be instigated by

6:18

something that happens. is what it is. And to argue with that is ludicrous. It's from that place of the deepest

6:20

acceptance of what is as your experience that change can happen if change is required, if change is intelligent, you know, coming from intelligent action or, you know, we can

6:22

call it wisdom or, yeah, I don't mean again, spiritual wisdom or intellectual history. But you know, either, either something can be done or something can't be done. Yeah.

6:24

Either there's a situation in your life that you can address, that you can tend to, you can attend to, you can take action because it's intelligent. It's wise, you cut your

6:26

hand, then some intelligent action needs to take place to stop the bleeding. War happens. You can't really do anything. Not from that. You can't do anything to stop the war, but you can

6:28

stop the war within. So this is speech to the people in the prison, speaks to Viktor Frank or in the concentration camp. It's speaking to those over and over, which is, you know, for many of us

6:30

in a way, an aspiration. But I think it's a light on the path to say, "Yes, this is possible. It might not be easy." It's just in John of the Cross. "Take my lofty principles and throw them to the wind.

6:32

I'm here with God in this moment again and again." And forgive me the strength to love only you. What does that mean? That doesn't mean to love you as a deity over there.

6:34

To love you the beloved. Because the beloved is everything. Everything. The godness of everything. There's one God not as an entity, not as a deity, not as something separate to us,

6:36

but simply the one totality of beingness that is expressing itself as everything, Even if that expression is horrific, it's all of it.

6:38

Give me the power, give me the strength to love only you, to love everything that arises. That doesn't mean that we love war, doesn't mean that we love tragedy,

6:40

not in the conventional sense of loving. It means to open to it. To deeply, deeply accept what is taking place in my internal experience, in my experience,

6:42

because anything else is adding to the division, is adding to the argument and is increasing the suffering. So as the heart in this, you see, I hear heart in this, and is as the heart kind of,

6:44

let's say, opens, I don't really like that, but as one opens to the deeper levels of beingness, So does the victim necessarily, ipso facto, die in that they can't coexist, the openness of the

6:46

heart and openness of beingness, and the victim cannot coexist? No, the victim dissolves in that. You could say, yes, the victim dissolves in the deepest

6:48

acceptance. It's only when you're fighting something. It's only when you're arguing with something is only when you're resisting with something.

6:50

And that's all up here, really, isn't it? Yes.

6:52

It would have to be. Yes.

6:54

And again, you know, there's often a misunderstanding of what the heart is. Yeah.

6:56

Yeah, it's all feely, feely to do with feelings. Can you speak to that a little bit?

6:58

You know, I like all these words that just a very almost reduced understanding of their deeper meaning. So the heart, it's like a gateway,

7:00

if you like. It's a gateway to beingness. It's a gateway to the vastness, the unboundedness of the ocean, at which point you can't even call it heart, because the heart has a certain location,

7:02

even energetically, metaphorically, but it's just a doorway. Openness is a doorway to that which is already open, which is the ocean, it's unbounded, the infinite, we can say the ocean of

7:04

awareness, the ocean of beingness, and the deeper we go into that or the more that we open on a certain level, that openness is no longer something that we have to go through.

7:06

It's just here always as an energetic, deep acceptance of what is. And the realisation energetically, viscerally, that open awareness, that open presence, that

7:08

open beingness, just like the sky is always here, come what may, whatever storm passes through.

7:10

Yes. That's beyond the heart.

7:12

So, yeah, that's right. Nothing can touch the essence of us.

7:14

It cannot be touched by the phenomenon. The phenomena of the world comes and goes.

7:16

Nothing can touch the essence. Wow, that's an invitation.

7:18

So yes, in that sense, I hear you saying, "Crisis can be an invitation or an opportunity for transformation, for the gateway of what we call the heart but isn't really a heart."

7:20

Yes, and like perhaps we've just been exploring there's different levels of that.

7:22

There's different depending on where we're at. First of all, even embracing the possibility

7:24

that crisis can be a doorway for transformation or for deepening, and then everything else

7:26

that we've spoken about. So depending on where each individual

7:28

is on their own path of awakening, or even let's not call it awakening,

7:30

just transformation or the human experience, then we can meet it in different ways. One is acceptance, one is willingness, one is

7:32

surrender, one is ending the argument and then deepening and so on and so on. Well I remember for myself how it was in those ten years of being so ill, you know, that

7:34

I was caught at death and had to take care and didn't know, was confused and railed against it and felt like the victim and all of these characters emerged and all of this

7:36

desperation emerge and eventually I had to surrender and just give it all up really and still attend to what needed to be attended to. There was a great tenderness I know from myself and to the situation

7:38

for both of us, great tenderness to what is and then attending to it, yes, in whatever way, but that attending didn't come from crisis, drama, trying to repress it, suppress it, stop it, fix it.

7:40

it came from a much deeper intelligence, which meant that what was attended to had an intelligence in it and a healing capacity in it, a return to wholeness on an emotional, physical and mental level.

7:42

But meeting it with tenderness was actually crucial. So many situations that we hear about or meet or have met in our lives, where perhaps somebody in a partnership, a marriage or whatever,

7:44

one becomes sick and the other is frightened to even meet the feelings around it or the possibility of death. So it's suppressed. Well, that's not healing, that's not wholeness.

7:46

So meeting all these with tenderness and allowing it all to be here, even the possibility of death, which we met with your situation,

7:48

Or maybe he's not going to be here anymore. Maybe this is part of the playing out.

7:50

And there's a great tenderness in that. Well, that's it.

7:52

I think all these factors and ways of being actually had a great impact on the healing that has taken place.

7:54

That's not what happens in the conventional world. No doubt.

7:56

I mean, you know, you're tenderness without pampering, tenderness and leaving alone, tenderness without, you know, necessary, not bringing anything of yours, you don't have anything.

7:58

Kind of really did allow organically this healing, if you like, you know, on many different levels of my being to just sort of play itself out.

8:00

I had no idea what was actually going on. and is thanks to your tenderness is true and truth, to not turn it into something more than it was.

8:02

Well, if I'm going to go, if I'm going to die, this is written in the records somewhere. Unlike my mother and her husband who got very ill and was dying, and she felt resentful.

8:04

he'd abandoned her. She felt she'd been punished and let down and she resented him and that bitterness and resentment turned into a further contraction for him because he couldn't

8:06

you know, express his own feelings. Of course, he died and it wasn't very pleasant. And this happens all the time in the world unconsciously. That's not the way to be.

8:08

Wow. I'm saying with everything, have a pet or something, you know, you know, tenderness, kindness, being with it, not creating a drama or a victim out,

8:10

self out of it. It's primary. And then if death happens, at least it's a release, a letting go, not a punishment. Yeah. I think, you know, in conclusion, I learn from you all the time,

8:12

time, you know, that, you know, that don't, don't, to not split ourselves up anymore. Yeah, we've done the with the splitting up, not you and I, but everybody, we've been split

8:14

up, we've separated ourselves, separated our experience, separated everything off. Well, this is, I want this and I don't want this.

8:16

And that maybe of what has worked for some period of time. And then it stops working.

8:18

And then what? you have to respond in a way at some point on the deeper and deeper levels to what you're

8:20

talking of. Even this. Open up, open up, even this. And there is a deep grace in that because you end up in the arms of God. I swear to God, you in the arms of grace. That's what

8:22

you're saying. So I thank you so much, Amoda. I think we're finished, huh? Okay, good. Thank Thank you so much everybody for listening. We hope you've enjoyed or been stirred or

8:24

stimulated a little bit by this conversation with Amoda Maa. We'll be back soon with another conversation. Please like, subscribe if you're watching this anywhere like YouTube

8:26

or something and that's it. Over and out from me, take care. Thank you so much, Amoda. Namaste to you.

8:28

Namaste. Be well.