0:00

God actually loves

0:02

you in spite of the

0:04

things that we've done. And He wants us to

0:06

have this relationship with Him

0:09

where shame does not get a stronghold. We

0:12

can do things that we're ashamed of,

0:14

but that doesn't mean that we are covered in

0:16

shame.

0:23

Welcome to Conversations with

0:25

John and Lisa Viver. And today it's actually just

0:27

Lisa and Christian Viver.

0:30

And I am super, super excited to bring

0:32

this show to you. So in

0:34

case you're wondering, Conversations

0:36

is actually part of a family of

0:39

podcasts. We have At Home with the

0:41

Viver's and we have Conversations

0:43

with John and Lisa and Christian. And

0:45

if you haven't already, we want

0:47

you to rate, subscribe. We want

0:49

to hear feedback from you. We love

0:51

to hear your questions. And if you do, you

0:54

actually might get red on air.

0:57

Today I've got Liv. It's Liv

0:59

VXO. And this is what

1:01

she said, I absolutely enjoy every

1:03

minute of this. The podcast brings so much light

1:06

to my life. And then she said, John

1:08

and Lisa are amazing and are planting seeds

1:10

around the world. These conversations

1:12

are practical, truthful, and

1:16

powerful. Okay. Well said. So I concur.

1:18

Yeah. So here's what we're going to do. And you

1:21

guys, this is super exciting. Christian

1:23

has written a book called

1:26

Break Up with What Broke You. Yes. And I'm

1:28

so excited that this message is coming

1:30

out. It's going to launch on August the 15th. That's

1:33

right. We're highlighting it right now because Christian,

1:35

this is something that you didn't

1:37

just study out as a theory. This is something

1:40

that was life to you. I mean, I

1:42

want people to hear your story. So

1:44

first of all,

1:45

why? Why did you write the story? Yeah.

1:48

Well, let me preface by saying it was four

1:50

years of writing. So it wasn't like you said, it wasn't

1:52

a research or an applicable topic. It

1:54

was a life topic and something that I

1:57

walked through, I know in sharing with you

1:59

and you even pouring.

1:59

into me, which thank you. This is very

2:02

much

2:03

something that I've even had the privilege of seeing redemption

2:05

through the lens of you and John. So it's

2:07

a great honor to be on the podcast now, but

2:11

I walked it out and painfully, you know

2:13

how that goes. You learn the lessons and you want

2:15

people to not have to do it the same way. So it is

2:18

for me, a peer to peer memoir

2:21

of, Hey, these are practical truths that I

2:23

knew, but it didn't fully live out. These are

2:25

lessons that I wish I would have learned. I mean, being

2:27

an older sister to three younger sisters, I

2:30

just want every woman, even if you are

2:32

older than me listening

2:33

to this to know like God's word

2:35

is true. His plan for you is good. His

2:37

yoke is easy. And sometimes we lose

2:40

that in the chaos of life, especially

2:42

in womanhood. And so yeah, we can navigate

2:44

that better. Let's do it. And I guess I should say

2:46

you are married to my youngest son. I am.

2:49

And you have given birth to a

2:51

very yummy little boy named

2:53

Azariah Jax. So you're a new

2:55

mother and you and Arden

2:58

have been married for how many years now? We are coming

3:00

up on five years and our son is coming

3:02

up on one year old,

3:03

which I cannot fathom hardly either one of

3:05

those. Both of those have gone really fast.

3:07

Okay. I love that you said, this is a peer

3:09

to peer. So this is

3:11

a book that's conversational. You're sitting

3:14

across the table and you want

3:16

others to learn from your mistakes and

3:19

to actually celebrate God's faithfulness

3:21

and have an expectation. So I'm going to ask you,

3:24

what is something that

3:27

like, what was something that you needed God

3:29

to rewrite in your life?

3:31

Man, one thing leaning

3:34

into that something that God had to rewrite in my life was

3:37

very much my identity to a way

3:39

that it came from my head to my heart. So

3:41

much of who I knew I was ingrained to be and

3:44

God had written over my life, I had let

3:46

it fall to the wayside and I had let what the world

3:48

said or what ex-boyfriends said

3:50

or what friends, I should really say air

3:52

quotes around friends said about me.

3:55

And it took a while to feel even

3:58

just the allowance for what God had written.

3:59

to be true in my life again. I

4:02

debated on sharing this or not, but it feels applicable now.

4:05

I had a dream last night

4:07

that I had done something very out of character, and

4:10

I went on the run and just hiding

4:12

in the most obvious places around people

4:14

that loved me and just hid myself because

4:17

I felt so guilty and that I wasn't

4:19

allowed to come back to them or to my

4:21

true nature.

4:22

And I woke up and just thinking of John 3,

4:24

20 through 21, which I wrote at length in the book, but

4:28

the word, it says that

4:31

those who, and I have it right here, let me be

4:33

thorough instead of off memory, for

4:35

everyone who does wicked things hates the light

4:38

and does not come to the light, lest his works

4:40

be shown should be exposed, but whoever does

4:42

what is true comes to the light so that it may be

4:44

clearly seen that his works have been carried out

4:47

in God.

4:48

And I write at length about shame

4:50

and regret and all of these moments

4:52

that we come against in our life. And

4:55

the tendency, I think, especially with my generation, is

4:57

to think either this is completely me

5:00

or I have to take on this

5:02

identity. If I've done wrong, then I must be

5:04

bad or I must make this all encompassing

5:07

rather than sorting it out with God and

5:09

feeling the allowance to let

5:12

him rewrite your story, let him rewrite

5:15

the things of your past, the things of your youth. I love

5:17

that you share at length

5:19

also where you've come from and what

5:21

you've established. And if you wouldn't have

5:23

turned to God and let him show you his

5:26

plan for your marriage, his plan for your motherhood, we

5:28

wouldn't be sitting here today and just leaning

5:30

into the power of that because that's a testimony in

5:32

and of itself. Well, I feel like you said a lot

5:35

of things right there. And one of the things I heard from,

5:37

even from your dream, was doing

5:40

something, something

5:42

that felt shameful and you

5:44

ran and hid from the people

5:46

that loved you. And this is something I want

5:49

every person to hear when you have done

5:51

something, something that you know

5:54

is a deed of darkness. God is actually

5:57

inviting you to run right to

5:59

the light, to write. right to love

6:01

because it's not like God doesn't know what

6:03

you've done. I mean, it's kind of a

6:05

silly thing. Like God actually

6:08

loves you in spite of

6:10

the things that we've done. And he wants us

6:12

to have this relationship with

6:14

him where shame does not get

6:17

a stronghold. Right. Because we can do things

6:19

that we're ashamed of, but that doesn't mean

6:21

that we are covered in shame. Right. Or

6:23

if we do feel covered in shame, because of things we've

6:26

done, God immediately wants to actually

6:29

help us get rid of that, confess

6:31

it, and then he robs us with his righteousness.

6:34

So, all right. So you and I had a connection a

6:36

long time ago where

6:38

you heard me say something

6:41

and it troubled you. Can

6:43

you share a little bit about that? Yeah. In the

6:45

best way possible, I might add. The

6:48

very first thing I ever saw from either John or Lisa

6:50

was Lisa's post around God does not love

6:52

his children equally. And I

6:54

felt very scared by that one

6:56

because I was in the season of searching out for

6:58

love. And I thought, if God doesn't love me as much

7:00

as he loves the girl that's never messed up, then

7:03

man, I'm a heathen. I'm the stepchild.

7:06

But what you were really prefacing was like,

7:08

there is this invitation for him to love you uniquely

7:10

based on what he's already deposited

7:13

in you innately. And

7:14

it was eyeopening, challenging. Sometimes

7:17

the best conversations are challenging. So if you're listening

7:19

to this thinking, I don't want to talk about

7:21

my past. I don't want to talk about where I've been. That

7:24

might be a good indicator that it's a healing journey

7:26

you're being invited upon. So

7:28

if you're feeling that, please lean into that tension. I

7:30

know it's not comfortable, but yeah, that was

7:32

the very first interaction I saw from you. And then,

7:35

yeah, what else did I know? And

7:37

then you joined my adamant experience.

7:39

I did. Which is shocking to me. I love

7:42

that. Because that costs money. And

7:45

I was just... And I was a broke college. Yeah,

7:48

that's why it was shocking. Okay, but so

7:50

here's the thing. So you move beyond

7:52

thinking, no, it needs to all be equal. All

7:54

needs to be fair to understanding that God

7:57

has a unique intimate love for you.

7:59

Are you comfortable sharing

8:02

what made you think that you were disqualified?

8:04

Because you said you were raised a

8:06

certain way, then you

8:08

pushed aside the

8:10

things that God had said

8:12

over you to receive the

8:14

things that, air quote, friends

8:16

or ex-boyfriends or whatever. What

8:19

was the thing that stripped

8:22

you of that love and

8:24

put on a garment of shame? And what was the

8:26

turning point where you realized,

8:28

no, this shame is not mine. I'm

8:32

actually created in his image and loved by him.

8:35

There are a numerous

8:38

amount of things that I think I could point to in one

8:40

partially because shame does create a snowball

8:42

effect. It takes one incidence and keeps

8:45

compounding and compounding between things

8:47

that seem mundane, things that seem like trauma

8:50

or very well could be traumatic in your life. For

8:54

me personally, some of the root

8:56

came with words that people

8:58

have spoken over me, even in childhood and adolescence.

9:02

It planted this seed that I had to either

9:04

nurture well or nurture incorrectly.

9:06

In nurturing it incorrectly, I sought

9:08

to be loved by people that didn't truly love

9:11

me, people that, let me even say, didn't have the

9:13

capacity to love me in the way I was searching for.

9:16

If you were a high school girl or you're a parent

9:18

to a teenager, if

9:20

you were going out and searching for something that only

9:22

God can fulfill and people that

9:24

do not fully know him or even people

9:26

that do not fully know you, you're grasping for

9:29

something that is only a copy and

9:32

a very minuscule copy of what you

9:34

deeply desire.

9:36

You mentioned that we have a one-year-old now. I have been so

9:39

conscious of what I consume, what

9:41

we feel in our home, even down to the

9:43

products and cleaning materials. I've seen

9:45

so much of there are better versions

9:48

of common things that we've just so readily

9:51

consumed like plastic bags.

9:53

We're not going to go on a full holistic approach

9:55

here, but plastic bags can be

9:58

swapped for paper bags.

9:59

containers and stuff like that.

10:02

And I say that to say, what we deposit

10:04

and put the things in our life into

10:07

creates what they release. And

10:09

if you are taking shameful circumstances

10:11

and putting it into the hopes of other people

10:14

or into your own control, it's going to create

10:16

side effects. So we cannot readily process

10:20

ourselves. But if we take those constantly to God, and

10:22

I hope at the very first measure, he can

10:24

redirect them. So for me, I took

10:27

so many of these instances and then being

10:29

broken up with, being rejected, being

10:33

just longing and isolated. And

10:35

that created this infestation of shame

10:37

where it started to manifest in how I acted,

10:40

my insecurities. And I go

10:43

at length and I get very vulnerable in the book,

10:45

one because we know that's a place that you feel

10:48

you can sit across from someone and learn

10:50

from their testimony. But

10:52

again, I cannot say at length

10:54

enough to process

10:55

these things with God and even in safe

10:57

community with your family around,

11:00

because you don't want that infestation

11:02

to take over your life because it just gets muddier and

11:05

muddier and heavier. So you keep talking

11:07

about infestation and I'm thinking

11:09

about when something reaches

11:11

that level, it affects everything. So

11:15

here's what I hope you're hearing

11:17

is that you cannot go

11:19

to people

11:20

to get what only God can give you. You

11:23

cannot go to people to

11:26

remove the mindset of shame

11:28

or the mindset of once I

11:30

get that, then I'll be fulfilled. Or once

11:32

I do that, then I'm worthy of

11:34

love. So these are not things

11:37

that you can actually get outside of. So

11:39

Christian, where was the turning point for you? When was

11:41

that turning point? Because I'm

11:43

assuming you were already there before you met Arden.

11:46

Had you started that journey already?

11:48

Because people are going to look at you and see you

11:50

as confident,

11:50

see you as somebody that

11:53

is well thought

11:56

through on things. They're not going to

11:58

look at you and immediately think.

11:59

that you ever had a struggle

12:02

with feeling acceptance. I know that you

12:04

were like me, your parents

12:07

had gone through a divorce. And

12:10

when you're a child of a

12:12

divorce, you always in

12:14

the back of your mind. And the first born too. And

12:16

the first, yeah, we have this in common. Two

12:20

divorces and first born. You

12:22

always have it in the back of your mind. If I

12:25

had been this,

12:27

they wouldn't have done that. So

12:31

where was the turning point? Because you became a Christian

12:33

at a pretty young age, but that

12:35

doesn't mean you had a revelation

12:37

of the love of God. Yeah,

12:39

and I was raised in a home of

12:42

two parents that did know Christ and take me to church.

12:44

So you can be in the best of those circumstances.

12:46

But again, it's how you process what you

12:48

go through that really determines how you react to

12:50

it. And I would say I probably had a

12:52

turning point and then a wake up point. My

12:54

turning point was before I met Arden. I remember

12:57

being in college and just

12:59

being in great community and still having

13:01

these inclinations or these inner

13:03

thoughts that felt misaligned with the

13:06

person I felt like I was in front of my friends

13:08

or when I was serving and

13:09

the shame that I kept in my closet and not

13:12

having the capability

13:15

to navigate those two. It just felt like the

13:17

devil on your shoulder and the angel on the other, like who was

13:20

I being today? Was I healthy? Was I able

13:22

to love people? Or was my shame

13:24

and my sinful nature still pesterizing

13:27

me? And it came to that

13:29

point of realizing this tension can't go on.

13:32

You can't feed two versions

13:34

of yourself. You really have to be in line with your true nature.

13:37

And so I graduated,

13:39

went back home,

13:41

started working the same job I was in before I went

13:43

to college and just felt like I spent so much money. What

13:45

have I been doing? Just do the same

13:48

job where I was. Right, right.

13:50

God's redirection. He can rewrite

13:52

your story. But

13:54

I was in the place and feeling really isolated

13:56

seeing a lot of my friends get married or go get their dream

13:58

job or move somewhere.

13:59

that wasn't their hometown and almost felt

14:02

like God had taken me back to something that I hadn't

14:04

healed from and had the

14:06

allowance, you know, if you're in a place of feeling

14:08

like your dreams are not being fulfilled

14:11

or you have maybe taken one step

14:13

back, like take it as a chance to be alone

14:15

with God, to get in the secret place, to

14:17

do a deep dive and let Him into

14:19

the parts that maybe were

14:21

hidden from Him or you had kept at bay. But

14:24

in that moment and then that time with God,

14:26

I remember just getting alone, sitting

14:29

on the floor, watching sermons, listening

14:32

and being in tune with what He was speaking to me for

14:34

the first time where I wasn't around a lot

14:36

of people and having to put on a face. I wasn't

14:39

in a place of, well, I'm going to go get my dream job and like

14:42

strive and strive. I was just resting.

14:44

And I think that's a great recipe to journey with

14:47

Him. But even in that, getting

14:49

back to the place of walking in my engagement

14:52

and seeing the man that I knew God had

14:55

created for me and promised very specific things

14:57

about coming to that reality again, did

14:59

feel like that shame was trying to come back in of, well,

15:02

how do you deserve Him or are

15:04

you going to mess this up? And

15:06

that was, I think, my turning point where I really

15:08

had to let the rubber meet the road and say, what

15:10

do I believe about what God has

15:12

created and put within me? And

15:14

do I feel I'm powerful enough for my shame to keep

15:17

that away forever? Wow.

15:19

Yeah. You talk about, okay, first of all, I

15:21

love that you highlighted

15:24

that you went back home and

15:26

that God gave you an opportunity to face

15:28

off with some things that maybe in the

15:31

busyness of college or in the dream

15:34

of the other thing, that thing

15:36

you didn't face off with and that you did

15:38

the deep work. Can you address some

15:41

of the half truths that people

15:43

believe that you actually

15:45

hit in that season and were able

15:47

to address and how like if somebody's out there and

15:50

they're like, Christian, that's where I am. I'm

15:52

in that season right now where I went

15:54

to college and I didn't

15:56

get the dream job or I'm not married

15:58

or I'm in that in between.

15:59

How do they navigate

16:02

the in-between well and

16:05

confront the half-truths? Well,

16:07

I think the very first thing is being ready to

16:09

do that and having an allowance to. I

16:12

kind of categorize it into two parts in the book, and I say

16:14

there are you are lies and you

16:16

are not lies. You are not lies.

16:18

And I think this takes on the probably the

16:20

identity and personality that you have. Some people are like, well,

16:22

I'm this and I'm this and I'm this. And

16:24

sometimes it's troublesome because they're not

16:27

fully understanding, okay, but God said you are this, rather

16:29

than some people feel more of like an insecurity and timidity

16:32

and think, well, I'm just not that or I'll never be

16:34

that.

16:34

So you are lies can be,

16:37

you are shameful. You are forgotten.

16:40

You are not lies or you are not lovable.

16:42

You are not capable. You are not enough and

16:45

getting to an

16:47

allowance with yourself

16:50

to think maybe I am broken.

16:52

And that's honestly how I start the book. And it felt very

16:54

hurt

16:56

just to start off by saying,

16:58

Hey, thank you for reading this book. You are broken and

17:00

we need to heal. It feels rude and obtrusive.

17:03

But when you go through this journey and almost

17:05

like

17:06

redemption starts by saying I'm sinful,

17:08

like God, I need you. And I don't think we can

17:10

get to a fulfilled self-esteem, a

17:13

real self-identity if we don't first say,

17:15

God, I know that you've created me in the womb,

17:17

you created me and I need you to heal

17:19

these broken pieces. I need you to

17:22

write the vision for my life. It would just be in

17:24

vain. So getting alone

17:26

with God and saying, what have I believed about myself?

17:29

What lies have been spoken over me? What have

17:31

I cast upon myself? And

17:33

how have I limited what you've created me to be?

17:36

All right. Well, I mean, I love

17:38

that you're saying first and

17:41

foremost humility.

17:43

God, I'm broken.

17:44

Like you are my healer. And I do feel like too

17:46

much of the Christian culture is almost like a pop

17:48

psychology where people are like, I am worthy.

17:51

I am more than enough. No, you're actually

17:54

not more than enough outside of Jesus.

17:56

In Christ we're more than enough. In Christ

17:59

we're worthy.

17:59

But outside of Christ,

18:02

we're broken. We're broken. And so I love that

18:04

you brought them to that ground place where

18:07

they could deal honestly and look

18:09

at themselves. I mean, we hear this in the scripture

18:11

when, when God is talking to his people in

18:13

the book of Joel, he says, come, let

18:15

us reason together. He said, though your

18:17

sins be like scarlet. So

18:20

you can't say, oh, no, they're just pink. Though

18:22

your sins are like scarlet,

18:24

I can make them white as snow. And so we

18:27

want to exchange our brokenness, our

18:29

sin, our half truths for God's

18:31

whole truth.

18:32

OK, so Christian, what is

18:34

your hope for a young girl? She's getting a hold of

18:36

this book. She's she's going to find out

18:38

that

18:39

maybe that her

18:41

hopes and her dreams are built on a

18:43

faulty foundation. You're going to take her from a place

18:45

of brokenness. What is your hope? Where do

18:47

you want to see her land at the end of this book? Yeah,

18:50

my hope would be that you land that

18:52

you go on a journey, actually, not even just the

18:55

landing, because I don't want to give you a false promise. I

18:57

want you to have the allowance

18:59

in the guide again, that peer to peer person saying,

19:02

I've been there, I've done that. You are not alone.

19:04

You're not the only one feeling this way that feels

19:07

isolated or left out. You were actually seen and chosen.

19:09

And that's why you're going through what

19:11

feels like pulling your feet through the mud. My

19:14

hope is that you go through that so that you

19:16

don't have to go through that again. You never have to

19:18

have these secret longings or questionings,

19:20

but you have a fortified foundation

19:22

in

19:24

God. And Lisa, honestly, reading

19:26

back the audio book, there are so many times where I just thought,

19:28

I wish I could have gone deeper. Like God

19:30

showed me so many things in my healing journey.

19:33

But I think this is purposeful for sometimes

19:35

we just need that reminder that we're not alone.

19:37

And there are things that we do need to tackle. Like you're saying,

19:40

we're not just more than enough. Like

19:42

we are more than enough through the journey and

19:44

the reliance on Christ. So that's

19:47

my hope that you go through these chapters, that you pinpoint

19:49

things that maybe God wants to rewrite in your story

19:51

so that he can write a beautiful love

19:54

story through him. OK, so I'm going to ask

19:56

you to pray for the audience because I believe that there

19:58

are young girls listening. for them

20:00

specifically, your hope for

20:02

their life and what like what you

20:05

actually wish somebody would have prayed for you when you were

20:07

at the beginning of this journey. Okay, I

20:09

would be an honor to do so. Lord,

20:11

I thank you so much for this space. I thank you for

20:14

every woman and mother listening

20:16

and grandmother listening. God, I just thank

20:18

you that relationship is on your mind when you

20:20

created humans, that you allowed us

20:22

to have testimony and breakthrough

20:25

through relationships that we have.

20:27

And I just pray a stronghold around or

20:29

a

20:29

fortification around those relationships

20:32

so we can journey well. I thank you

20:34

that you created this space to have this pure relationship.

20:36

And I just pray that any woman who has felt

20:38

left out or feels that she's far away from you would

20:41

feel your calling, your gentle Abba

20:43

Father calling her back

20:45

and saying that she is loved and

20:48

ready to come to you. And Lord, I just pray a hedge of

20:50

protection around her of comfort, of

20:52

being seen, of true identity

20:55

Lord, and that you would just begin to fortify and

20:57

purify the goal that you have put within

20:59

her. And we thank you for all this. We

21:01

thank you for your gentlemen and fatherlike nature

21:04

to us all. Even though we're

21:06

unworthy, you remain righteous and even as

21:09

you love us unequally but uniquely.

21:12

Amen. Well, you know what the

21:14

book's title is, Break Up With

21:16

What Broke You and Where Can They

21:18

Get It and When Is It Available? You can get

21:20

it wherever books are sold. We have it, of course,

21:23

on Amazon for people that love free shipping, but also

21:25

Baker Book House has it at a discounted rate and

21:27

we love a sale. So I have to point

21:29

there for you guys. And August

21:31

18th. Christian, thank you so much. August 15th. Sorry.

21:34

Yeah, I'm making updates. I think that's

21:36

my grandson's birthday. Okay, August 15th. And

21:39

you know what, Christian, I want to thank you for writing the

21:41

book. And I thank mothers

21:43

out there. This is a book that would be such

21:45

a key tool for you to get your

21:48

daughters. I've had the incredible privilege

21:50

of watching Christian grow

21:52

as a daughter of the Most High, as

21:54

a wife, and now as a mother. And

21:57

so, so honored to share this with

21:59

you. Okay.

21:59

So, I want to thank you for tuning in. This

22:02

has been conversations with

22:05

John and Lisa. John's here

22:07

in spirit, but it's really Christian and Lisa

22:09

Baveer. I want you to know you

22:11

can subscribe. If you subscribe, you

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won't miss anything. We want you to

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rate. We want you to share this show. And

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I don't know if you know about this, but there's something called

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Messenger X. And Messenger X has

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courses where you can share them with your

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family, with your friends. It's in over 120

22:27

languages. You

22:29

know, Christian, I was just in the UK and there

22:31

was a beautiful woman from Poland and she said,

22:35

you know, she's been helping the Ukraine refugees.

22:37

And I said, do you know about Messenger X? She was like,

22:39

of course I know about Messenger X. So

22:41

if you don't know about Messenger X, you need

22:43

to know about Messenger

22:46

X. So until next time, this has been

22:48

conversations with Lisa and Christian

22:50

Baveer.

22:51

We hope you enjoyed this episode of conversations

22:54

with John and Lisa Baveer. If you

22:56

haven't already, make sure you subscribe

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and rate this podcast wherever you love

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to listen. Also, if you haven't already, go

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right ahead and download Messenger X to hear more

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other great messengers. Again, thank you

23:10

so much for joining us and we'll see you next time on

23:12

conversations with John and Lisa.