0:11

Welcome to Cooper and Cary Have

0:13

Words . My name is James Cary

0:16

. I'm in England , the south-west

0:18

part . Over there in Florida is my good friend Barry

0:20

Cooper . Hello , Barry .

0:22

Hello James . Excellent to join you from Cape

0:25

Florida . What on earth are

0:27

we talking about in this episode ?

0:28

We are talking about para-church

0:31

organisations and it's something

0:33

that we've thought a little bit about for

0:35

a while , thinking we should do something on that , because

0:38

para-church organisations are huge

0:40

, huge business , very , very

0:42

influential , and

0:44

it's making me

0:46

nervous .

0:48

It's making me nervous . It's hard to find

0:50

, isn't it ? Christian leaders these days

0:52

, these days , who don't

0:54

also lead some kind of para-church

0:56

ministry . So , for example , John

0:59

Piper's Desiring God , or John MacArthur's

1:01

Grace to You , or Alistair

1:03

Begg's Truth for Life , Mark Devour's

1:05

Nine Marks , for example , Ligonier , They're

1:08

everywhere . I

1:10

mean literally . what does para-church mean

1:13

?

1:13

What does that word mean , okay , i do know a bit of

1:15

Greek . Para means beside

1:17

. That's one of the bits that have stuck . It's

1:19

sort of like alongside , isn't it ? Yeah

1:22

, so it's alongside . The church

1:24

is what a para-church organisation is

1:26

Like parallel , yeah , sort

1:29

of .

1:29

Yeah , yeah , yeah

1:31

. So para-church organisation and to give

1:33

some examples of so

1:36

, people who are not currently keyed in

1:38

to what on earth we're rabbiting on

1:40

about . So maybe some concrete examples . So

1:44

it might be things like the

1:47

navigators or crew . That's

1:49

a campus . It used to be called campus crusade

1:52

for Christ , intervast Christian

1:54

Fellowship . A para-church organisation

1:56

might also be a publisher , a good book company

1:58

. Crossway Might

2:00

be described as a para-church organisation

2:02

. Alpha And then things like yes

2:05

, the Alpha Course , christianity Explored , ministries

2:07

, right Also seminaries as well , and

2:09

then particular sort of activist or social

2:12

groups , you

2:14

know welfare , homeless shelters , childcare , a Christian aid . And

2:17

then of course , we could describe and

2:19

maybe we'll get into this later slightly more controversially

2:21

denominations as a whole

2:24

, in a sense , are para-church

2:26

organisations . They exist alongside

2:29

, in theory , at their best to equip

2:32

the local churches in

2:34

a certain way . These are all examples

2:37

of para-church organisations

2:40

. And what's the

2:42

beef ? I mean , why not ? Why is

2:45

it that there seems to be quite

2:48

a voluminous literature of

2:50

folks in the local church

2:52

almost treating para-churches

2:55

with quite a lot of hostility , and

2:58

we'd like to get into that a ? little bit in this episode

3:01

to see what extent that is

3:03

maybe justified and to what extent

3:05

it might be unjustified .

3:06

I mean , i guess , if we go right back , one

3:09

could say to some extent , like we

3:11

didn't used to have them , we didn't

3:13

, we apparently didn't need them . Now I'm not

3:15

entirely sure that

3:17

that quite stacks up , because you could argue

3:19

that the monasteries were

3:22

a para-church organisation the Benedictines

3:24

, the Friarys and those sorts of things

3:27

. So in one sense you could say that medieval

3:29

Christianity was absolutely awash with para-church

3:31

organisations , but in

3:33

a way they were all kind of in the same business

3:36

in an element of the curing of souls

3:38

.

3:39

Well , I was going to say , and also it does seem to

3:41

be a particular feature of the last

3:44

post-Reformation

3:46

, because many para-church

3:49

organisations , maybe most para-church organisations

3:51

, tend to be Protestant , they tend to

3:53

be evangelical , not always , but

3:56

they tend to emerge , I think , from

3:58

that strand of theology

4:01

. And this is one of those areas where some

4:03

Roman Catholic Beratheran might be saying

4:05

yes , well , there you are . You see , there you are . That's the

4:07

natural fallout of your Reformation

4:10

. You've basically created all of these . You

4:12

know , it's a many-headed hydra

4:15

of independent thought

4:17

which creates all of these

4:19

things , all of these organisations alongside

4:21

the local church in which , in some cases , have sort of

4:24

rather threatened to swallow up local

4:26

churches in an unhelpful way .

4:28

Yeah , Just words , But

4:30

good words . That's

4:32

where ideas begin . Maybe

4:34

you should listen to them . And

4:36

it's interesting . I was just thinking back about where

4:38

did a whole load of these organisations

4:41

come from ? And actually , a

4:43

great hero of the faith undoubtedly

4:45

is William Wilberforce , And

4:48

he was forever starting up organisations

4:51

and responsible for the institution of a whole load

4:53

of things . Yeah , political lobby groups Yeah

4:55

like stuff like the society prevention

4:58

of cruelty to animals , which

5:00

I guess he wouldn't , we wouldn't say

5:02

, well , that's not a power to its organisation . But it was set up

5:04

by Christians in

5:06

a time when Christianity was the only game

5:08

in town . But there was a particular

5:11

sort of 19th century tradition

5:13

of setting things up as well , wasn't

5:15

there ? And lots and lots of missions

5:17

to foreign places .

5:18

Poor schools , yeah , and

5:21

also schools which were separate .

5:22

And then I guess I mean initially

5:25

, methodism was a paratroop organisation

5:27

, wasn't it ? It wasn't

5:29

meant to be an alternative to the Sunday

5:31

morning parish . It was

5:33

a Sunday afternoon supplement of

5:36

Bible teaching , because they didn't really rate the Bible

5:38

teaching in the Church of England with very

5:40

interesting with some degree of justification

5:42

, I would imagine , in the 18th century

5:44

at least .

5:46

Yes , and I think that gets at the root

5:49

of why some folks today

5:51

, i think , have a slightly uneasy relationship

5:53

with paratroop churches . Bible studies is

5:56

a good example of this . So you sometimes

5:58

have these organisations outside

6:00

the local church , independent

6:03

, who create Bible study material which

6:05

then gets into the local church And

6:08

because it encourages , one might say

6:10

, in some cases not in all cases , but in some

6:12

cases an almost cultic devotion

6:14

to the materials produced by

6:16

this particular organisation , it

6:18

can actually cause a kind

6:21

of a segregation and factions starting

6:23

to emerge in the local church , where you have a bunch of people

6:25

within the local church who are really into this material

6:27

and proselytise about it and almost

6:30

get to the point where they're saying this is

6:32

really what faithful teaching ought to be like , this

6:34

is the way you guys ought to be preaching from the pulpit

6:36

, like this stuff . It

6:39

can act . To the extent that those sorts of organisations

6:42

create that , it's obviously really unhelpful . Yeah

6:45

, churches within churches effectively

6:47

form .

6:47

And so I can see how a paratroop

6:50

organisation is able to do things that a church

6:52

can't . That just made

6:54

me think . So I'm going to write

6:56

some Pathfinder material

6:58

. So our Pathfinder group are the 11th

7:01

to I mean actually 11th to 16th

7:03

in my own church , rather than they don't want to go when they're 14

7:05

. And full

7:07

disclosure . I'm a general . I

7:10

would prefer the American model where everyone

7:12

goes to church together and then

7:14

everybody has a Sunday school class , adults and

7:16

children alike . But I think with 30

7:19

to 100 years away from that , in

7:21

the UK at least . But one

7:24

day you never know .

7:25

But whether you have . Do you mean like taking out the

7:27

streams of Sunday school stuff and just having

7:29

everybody in the main service ? that idea , Yeah

7:31

.

7:33

But there is a need for material for that

7:35

age group , and there is actually , in the UK

7:37

at least , very , very little , and

7:40

so I'm just going to write some

7:42

. I'm just going to write a whole year's worth

7:44

of material for my own group to

7:46

use . I mean , i'm not even in charge of the group . I just said , look

7:49

, i can probably do this And

7:51

I'm happy to kind of make it available

7:53

to other churches and actually listen to how

7:55

other churches use it , so that I can then incorporate

7:58

that into a

8:01

slightly better version that then other churches can

8:03

use Mate .

8:04

We're a generation away from James Cary Ministries

8:07

, maybe even a matter of years , here at

8:09

this point .

8:10

Well , that's it , but in a way that's just it , isn't it . It feels like

8:12

this could become a thing And I'm

8:14

pretty sure it won't But There's

8:17

something about something being rooted in

8:19

the local church and church experience that

8:21

is then made available to others , and you

8:24

know , in a kind of slightly wiki kind

8:26

of ad bits , take bits away . I

8:28

don't have ownership over it . You know the Linux

8:31

of

8:33

of Sunday school material

8:35

, whereas the temptation

8:37

is . And look , i make podcasts for an organization

8:39

called faith in kids , which are a para church

8:42

organization , who are

8:44

all about helping Christian parents

8:46

bring up their kids in the faith

8:48

and helping churches to do that . And because

8:50

this is something that churches historically Haven't

8:53

done a very good job with , especially within the church of

8:55

England , one can see a very compelling

8:58

case for what's not to like if you're improving

9:00

and augmenting the work of a church which just

9:02

doesn't have the capacity to cover all the basis

9:04

. And I guess that would be the main argument , the

9:07

main good faith argument in charge of para

9:09

church organizations is they're

9:12

able to go away and

9:14

think deeply about something and

9:16

then give you The fruits

9:19

of their labors in the same way that you don't

9:21

need to come up with your own commentaries

9:23

on mark in order

9:25

to do a preaching series in mark . Someone's

9:28

done that for you , probably somebody at a seminary

9:30

, and so it's so

9:32

in that , in that sense , what's the

9:34

problem ?

9:35

Yeah , that's right . I mean , you think about , for example , ministries

9:38

, outreaches to Muslims , and so on

9:40

. There are very few people in any given local

9:42

church who really have The

9:45

time , the gifting , the energy to

9:47

dedicate to really thinking deeply about

9:49

these things and developing materials

9:51

which really scratch that itch , and

9:54

so it seems like that's a good thing to

9:56

tap into . I think

9:58

, though , with that argument

10:00

about , well , if the church were just doing its job

10:02

, you know , we wouldn't need all

10:04

of this proliferation of para church ministries . I mean , i think , yeah

10:09

, i don't think that is quite

10:11

right , because how big is the average

10:13

congregation ? I don't know what it would be in the UK

10:16

, probably less than a

10:18

hundred , i don't know . Yeah , in the UK , i

10:20

would say yeah , maybe slightly bigger

10:22

here , but not actually . I think the average congregation

10:24

is probably not much bigger in the US , around about 200 to 250 . You

10:29

know , even if you're , if your church is , like

10:31

, absolutely massive , then

10:34

yes , there might be enough gifting in

10:36

your church to be able to create bespoke materials

10:39

for reaching out to Muslims and doing missions

10:41

to particular groups of people you know within your congregation . You

10:44

might be able to keep it all in house . But

10:46

in reality , i mean what we're going to do is is every does every church

10:48

have its own Seminary

10:52

effectively ? I think that is the argument that some

10:54

people make that actually the training of pastors

10:56

ought to happen entirely

10:58

in house , rather than sending

11:00

people to outsourcing that sort of

11:02

equipping of future pastors . But I just don't

11:05

know that it's always Possible

11:09

. I mean , it's a good thing , i think , to teach biblical

11:11

theology , to teach systematic theology , to teach

11:13

Greek and Hebrew . Now , do you have

11:15

the expertise in your local congregation

11:17

to be able to do that ? you may have , but seems to me not always . And

11:21

carry .

11:25

Have words . You

11:37

could say well , look , if we believe in the local

11:39

church so much that we don't do

11:41

power , church organizations and therefore

11:43

our Pastors , are going to be equipped

11:46

in a particular way which we might say

11:48

is suboptimal . Well

11:50

, that's just it . That's how God does the church . So

11:52

get over it . Yeah , and I

11:54

have some sympathy with that argument . I think we

11:56

do often want to professionalize

11:59

everything , so we could

12:01

say , well , if you are

12:03

at a big , wealthy church , well

12:06

, there's a ministry here that could be done . Can't we employ someone

12:08

to do that , because they do it much

12:10

better and you go . Well , that

12:13

one person could do something . Well , that

12:15

one person would be robbing five other

12:17

people of doing that job , possibly

12:20

less well , but actually the fact

12:22

that five people are doing it voluntarily within

12:24

the context of a church and service

12:26

That

12:29

might be better , actually might knit . Yeah

12:31

yeah , so there's that argument

12:34

. And then the other argument is well , this is why you

12:36

need denominations , but maybe we'll get on

12:38

to that in a moment . but what do you make

12:40

of my ?

12:41

Yeah , i do think that's right argument yeah

12:44

, i think so , and it made me think of . There's

12:46

almost an analogy here with the the

12:48

argument for homeschooling , which

12:51

is that just to open another can

12:53

of worms yeah , that's right in the can of . It's like

12:55

meta can of worms .

12:56

A Russian dollar . Cans of worms in

12:59

septi worms .

13:00

The big argument in many ways for

13:02

homeschooling , when people say , well

13:05

, i could , i'm a parent . I couldn't possibly have

13:07

the expertise that this guy over here

13:09

with a degree in Biology , english

13:11

literature , whatever it is , i don't have that . Now

13:13

the , the pushback , which I think is quite a good

13:15

one , is to say well , that may be true

13:18

, but at the same time , nobody

13:20

loves your children as well as you , nobody

13:22

spends as much time with

13:24

your children . As

13:27

you know them and therefore you can create

13:29

a kind of a bespoke curricula which

13:31

which fits them much better

13:33

than sending them . You know , franchising that out

13:35

to a , to a local school And

13:38

I think there's a parallel argument with with

13:40

paratroops is you could say

13:42

yes , of course there are , there's expertise

13:44

that exists outside the local congregation which

13:47

far outstrips the kind of in

13:49

house expertise . Me . Ramshackle

13:51

amateurish yeah

13:53

that may be true and yet the

13:56

difference is that those paratroops organizations

13:59

do not know your people

14:01

, they don't spend as much time with your people

14:03

. So when they create resources

14:06

, very often of course by by , they

14:08

can't do anything else but create a kind of one size

14:10

fits all . Let's say , for the sake of argument

14:13

, evangelistic curricula , right And

14:16

and and . They don't know your exact

14:18

cultural mealy air . They don't know your people . There's

14:21

a sense in which you're trying to buy something off

14:23

the peg which it may be

14:25

better to create , something which is , which is a

14:27

bit more Ramshackle , but which

14:29

is really keyed into your

14:31

particular group of people in your local church

14:34

in some instances .

14:34

Yeah , yeah , yeah . So a life saved , spent

14:37

writing evangelistic material

14:39

for a time .

14:40

It's a waste of time . No

14:44

, so that's the side note to new to

14:46

new listeners .

14:47

Barry spent many years of his life working for Christianity

14:49

, explored writing evangelistic materials , so

14:52

that's right . That explains the joke

14:54

and has and has dissected

14:57

that particular for all . The frog

14:59

is now dead .

15:00

The frog is now dead And I

15:02

say that because one of the now

15:04

just to put my cards on the table . I think the work of

15:06

Christianity explore ministries is wonderful and and

15:09

very necessary in lots of ways . I

15:11

think it at its best those sorts

15:13

of organizations like Ligonier .

15:15

They come , they genuinely also a previous employer

15:18

.

15:19

Well , it's been . For me it's been 25 years

15:21

working in paratroops ministries until until

15:23

I became , you know , till I became a pastor at the

15:25

beginning this year . So I I'm

15:28

not throwing throwing the whole thing under the bus , i'm

15:30

simply saying that when we would create

15:32

a curricula , we'd work

15:35

on it for years and

15:37

we'd be sort of stress testing the video

15:39

series and the Bible studies and local churches

15:41

, and then we'd finally publish it . And

15:44

what was the first email emails

15:46

that would pop into my inbox post publication

15:49

, pretty much always without

15:51

fail , would be this is great

15:53

, when's the next one coming out

15:55

? And there's a sort

15:57

of if

15:59

we lean on a particular organization

16:02

to

16:05

enable us to do evangelism

16:07

in the local church , there

16:09

are certain muscles that we are not developing

16:12

which we ought to be developing in

16:14

the local church . So routinely I'd write back to these

16:16

guys and go . You know what really

16:18

all it is is ? Christian export is just going

16:20

through Mark's gospel . Discipleship export

16:22

is just going through Philippians . You

16:25

guys can do that . You know why not create

16:27

a Bible study yourself ? Like , pick a book . There

16:30

are 66 of them , it's all God's word

16:32

, it's all great , it's all going to be effective

16:34

. So just do

16:36

that You already have the . Bible

16:38

, so you don't really need

16:40

us guys in many

16:43

ways to keep on doing the work . It's

16:45

like that old joke about you know guy

16:47

goes into a Christian bookshop and he's

16:49

there to buy a fish sticker for the back of his car

16:51

And when they say they've sold out , he's

16:53

like , well , how am I going to do evangelism

16:56

now ? It's like you know , no , you

16:58

can do this . You don't need to be leaning

17:00

on this stuff Now again . At

17:03

its best it gives people

17:05

an on ramp into the work

17:07

of evangelism in their local communities and in their

17:09

church , but at its worst , i think

17:11

it can create a kind of dependency

17:13

which is unhealthy . I would

17:15

say , yeah , do you think that's

17:17

fair ?

17:18

Yeah , I do . I don't know .

17:20

I like her . I

17:22

like her . I

17:25

like words . I

17:28

like fat , buttery

17:31

words such as ooze

17:34

, turpitude . I

17:36

like solemn , angular , creaky words

17:38

such as straight blades and cantankerous bacchunius

17:42

thatadictory . I

17:44

like words .

17:46

May I have a few with you . I also

17:49

believe in sort of creative destruction

17:51

and federalism in that sense of like . I

17:53

love the idea of

17:55

America being a federal country

17:58

where every state in its own right is a

18:00

bit of an experiment , And they all do things

18:02

kind of differently And there's an element of competing

18:05

with each other And there's an element of learning from each

18:07

other . Well , they tried that in Colorado . We

18:10

should try it here . It's Texas . It's not going to work here

18:12

. Oh yeah , Good point . There's a whole

18:14

load of regional variations

18:16

And actually the thing I thought

18:19

you might have said , that the first email that

18:21

you would receive from a Christianity

18:23

explored thing is the first email that says oh , we love

18:25

it , It's brilliant . I mean , it wouldn't work in our church

18:27

, But it's really good .

18:29

Well , that's the other one . You're right , it's a little bit

18:31

too white and middle class and public school

18:33

Yes , it doesn't quite work

18:35

for us . And

18:37

then , of course , you could create something that's totally

18:39

bespoke for them , and let's

18:42

say they're working on council estates . And

18:44

then you'd have people saying , yeah , it doesn't really work for ours

18:46

, and it's like , well duh , yeah , of course it doesn't

18:49

. There's no such thing as a completely

18:51

culturally denuded product

18:54

that we can create . That's going to work in all

18:56

situations . So how about ? here's a thought why

18:59

don't you guys create something

19:01

that's just for you ? That's going

19:03

to be better , even if it's not quite as polished

19:05

and sparkly as the kind of stuff that Christianity

19:07

Explored Ministries produces or Alfa or whoever

19:10

.

19:10

Yeah , i mean , let's face it . my path finder of course

19:12

says there's going to be no polish or sparkle about that .

19:14

It's going to be deliberately gritty , it

19:17

is .

19:19

Also I'm going to have to lean on someone to say , to

19:21

suggest some games or activities , because

19:24

I just don't do games or activities when I run in

19:26

Really No icebreakers .

19:27

Where you come from , it's just straight in there .

19:29

I do icebreakers Usually like

19:31

, dependent on the passage

19:34

we're looking at , when

19:36

we sort of take the register at the beginning to find out who's

19:38

there . I just say , when I say your name , tell

19:41

me what you would do if you were king for one day

19:43

.

19:44

Excellent .

19:44

Well , tell me a time when you

19:47

thought you were lost . And

19:49

that's like this . So that's it , that's the icebreaker

19:52

.

19:52

That's all you need .

19:53

And then we're into it . I mean , we've only gotten for like 40

19:55

minutes And they can

19:57

have more fun doing virtually anything

19:59

else . if you know what I mean

20:02

, so why should we ? change

20:04

them on God's word . This is 40 . This

20:06

is half an hour in . God's word that

20:09

they're not going to get any other way , so just

20:11

read the Bible . That's

20:16

kind of very much my approach

20:19

.

20:20

Well , what you've got there almost and

20:22

I think this would be a healthy approach for

20:24

a lot of parachutch ministries Is to have a kind of built-in

20:27

obsolescence , Is to have an

20:29

end game at

20:31

which point you basically right yourself

20:33

out of existence . You

20:36

are nothing more than a kind of a plaster cast

20:38

around a broken limb , And that

20:40

plaster cast is meant to come off at some

20:42

point And the person is supposed to be walking around on

20:45

their own two pegs . There are

20:47

, I think , some parachutch ministries

20:49

which have remained well

20:51

beyond their shelf life and

20:53

probably ought to be put

20:56

out of their misery .

20:57

Put out of their ministry .

20:59

Out of their ministries .

21:00

And I would say yes , and parachutch

21:03

organizations could therefore start

21:05

to feel like a church

21:08

And become

21:10

a bit of a . well , i am a Christianity-explored

21:12

person .

21:13

I am a whatever , i'm a nine marks ministry

21:15

person . Now again .

21:17

They wouldn't want this because they exist to support

21:19

the local church . The Keswick

21:22

Convention , which I'm part of , exists

21:24

for the sake of the local church And they're

21:26

really not interested

21:28

in being a destination and ending itself

21:30

. And it's been a very helpful , useful

21:32

movement , as it were , over

21:34

the last 100 or so years

21:37

And it's waxed and waned a little in its preferences

21:39

and its emphases . But

21:43

there are other Christian festivals I know , or quasi-Christian

21:45

festivals where people would say I

21:48

really do think this . So I will name one

21:50

of them which I have enjoyed being

21:52

part of but for obvious reasons

21:54

I'm not really so keen about , which is Greenbelt

21:56

. Now , greenbelt was

21:58

set up by evangelicals in

22:01

the 70s I think , and became

22:03

a very big popular music festival

22:05

, christian arts festival , and at one

22:07

point they had U2 , and they had some really big band

22:10

And it felt like a Christian Glastonbury It

22:12

was a big deal , but

22:14

it became a bit of a monster and a bit of a liability

22:17

And I think they didn't quite know what

22:19

they got there , but anyway it sort of settled

22:21

down and

22:22

waxed and waned Because it lacks the sort of the clear

22:24

theological vision of a local church . There

22:27

isn't the same accountability , structure or leadership

22:29

. Is that what you're thinking ? I think it's more .

22:31

it was a financial liability And it felt like , well , why can't

22:33

we be the next Glastonbury ? And that's

22:35

like I mean , even Glastonbury can't be Glastonbury

22:37

And they've just got people now turning

22:39

up and pouring money into it And it's very

22:42

much its own thing . So

22:44

my point is more that it

22:46

became a sensibility within Christianity

22:49

, an artistic sensibility that

22:51

also that became post-Evangelical and

22:54

effectively therefore liberal , and

22:56

it is very progressive . It's very . I'm a Greenbelt

22:58

Christian And so people say and

23:01

I've heard them say it with my own ears and they've

23:03

said it with their own mouths Greenbelt

23:05

is my spiritual home . Yes

23:07

, And I totally

23:10

understand why they would say that . And

23:12

there are other festivals that

23:14

I like , very much like the Keswick Convention

23:17

, and I'm part of the thing called the Keswick Unconventional

23:19

, which is a slightly creative little

23:21

brother of the Keswick Convention , which

23:23

happens during week three , and it's very tempting

23:25

to say this is my spiritual

23:27

home . I get it , they get me .

23:29

They're your people , your tribe Yeah .

23:32

And creatives are particularly

23:34

prone to doing this , i think

23:36

, but I don't think this is within any particular

23:38

sector or not . So

23:41

I can see how a parachurch

23:44

organization or a festival

23:46

just becomes

23:48

effectively a church And therefore you're

23:50

creating a restlessness for this person in

23:52

their own actual local church . That's

23:54

right , and either they stop going to that local

23:57

church or they do go and are just miserable

23:59

the whole time because , they've tasted

24:01

something that's more of a church in

24:04

their own image , if I may say so More like exactly

24:06

right yeah . Uncharitably .

24:08

Yeah , yeah .

24:08

Conversely , there

24:10

are churches that become movements

24:13

And I would say Mark

24:15

Driscoll's Mars Hill Church became

24:18

some sort of parachurch movement

24:20

that at some point stopped

24:23

being about the 2,000

24:26

people that showed up on a Sunday and became

24:28

more , because in the very

24:30

early days of podcasting , his podcast were

24:32

Mark Driscoll's podcast were absolute

24:35

gangbusters And I listened to

24:37

lots of them And I didn't sort of yearn to be in

24:39

Seattle where it rains

24:41

even more than it does in the south of England . Yeah

24:43

, again , it's like this is a church

24:45

And yet this feels like it's being

24:48

more than a church . And

24:51

clearly God's been using it in some ways

24:53

, but so you get this creep

24:55

from church to parachurch or

24:57

from parachurch to church , and these are really unhelpful

25:00

, aren't they ?

25:01

Yes , i think they are , and sometimes you see that reflected

25:03

in . There'll be certain church members who are

25:06

often sending you emails

25:08

where they say , oh , have you heard the latest from

25:10

? and then names a particular parachurch ministry

25:12

and they'll send you a sermon

25:14

or a talk or a seminar or some sort of article

25:16

or whatever . Now , on one level that could be

25:18

perfectly benign . It's not as if you can't learn

25:21

things from reading books that have been written

25:23

by people who are not in your congregation . Great

25:25

, fine , lovely . But

25:28

if that's all they keep , they're

25:30

always sending you things from this particular

25:32

parachurch . You start to wonder

25:34

I don't know

25:36

, are you really

25:39

taking your spiritual lead from

25:42

the local church , your local church where

25:44

you're rooted , where God has placed you , or

25:46

is it really functionally

25:49

coming from 2,000 miles away on the other side

25:51

of the country ? That

25:53

is a bit worrying , i think . Sometimes .

25:56

Yeah , i would say , and I think , therefore

25:59

, you know , we would obviously want to

26:01

play tribute to the the

26:04

late Tim Keller , who had a massively

26:06

disproportionate effect and we've spoken about this relatively

26:08

recently before , but As

26:11

a preacher , you could listen to his preaching and just

26:13

think I would love to be able to preach like Tim Keller

26:15

.

26:16

That's right .

26:16

It's like well , you're in , you're

26:18

in Lincolnshire and , and

26:20

nobody really wants that , and so

26:23

that's great for you . If , especially

26:25

if you're sort of a metropolitan type who is now in

26:27

a much more Rural setting .

26:28

But you're thinking from the point of view of a local pastor

26:31

listening to sort of yeah And

26:33

so , yeah , so again . It's just like this this wouldn't

26:35

, this wouldn't work here , kind

26:37

of thing , i think , but it also , i

26:39

think The other side of it again

26:41

is is the people in the congregation

26:44

listening to those sermons and becoming dissatisfied

26:46

with their local Why can't you preach more like Tim Keller

26:48

? Yeah , be more calorie When

26:51

that's not the way that God has chosen

26:53

to equip his church . We've all got different personalities

26:55

, different wirings , different ability to you

26:57

know who've rough information ? Very

27:00

, very few people that nobody's Tim Keller , apart

27:03

from Tim Keller , yeah , or John Piper or Don

27:05

Carson or you name it and you want to say

27:07

to those folks , actually Your

27:09

pastor , as disappointing

27:11

as he may seem to you- Yeah , and he's not that

27:13

thrilled about you , if we're honest . Yeah , he's

27:15

probably not , but he's got something

27:17

that these guys don't have , which is he

27:19

knows you . Yeah , if he's , if he's

27:21

doing it , well , yeah , he's speaking to

27:23

you and God has specifically empowered

27:26

him by the spirit to speak to you at

27:28

this particular moment , in a way that he hasn't Instructed

27:32

Tim Keller to speak to you and again , that's

27:34

not to say you should , we can't have stuff feeding

27:36

in , but it's not the same , there's your , there's

27:38

your local pastor carry . What's

27:53

interesting about this dynamic is that , i think , where para

27:56

church ministries are healthy

27:58

, they know to say in advance and to stress

28:00

We are not at local

28:03

church , we are not a church , we're a para church

28:05

. So , for example , christianity , explore ministry

28:07

say all over there , material , we're , we

28:09

are , see , we are here to equip the local

28:11

church . That's how we see ourselves , the

28:13

. When I did my interview for Ligonier ministries

28:15

, they were at pains to point out in

28:17

the first interview We are not

28:20

a church . So , both as

28:22

an employee and a consumer of Ligonier ministries

28:24

material , you need to have that in your mind . The

28:26

problem is , of course , that even when a

28:29

para church ministry is crystal clear about this , that

28:32

doesn't stop Christians from relating

28:34

to them as if they were churches . And

28:36

so there is that , even if you're being really

28:38

careful to try and delineate exactly what you

28:40

can and can't do , you can't

28:42

stop all Christians from actually relating to you as a . As

28:45

a church , you start giving all your time , your

28:48

money , your attention , your a pat , your passion

28:50

to this particular local church ministry

28:52

, which now you are not giving

28:55

to your local church , and

28:57

that is Is that

28:59

worries me sometimes .

29:04

So that was the first thing . The second thing I said was denominations

29:06

, which we should come on to , and I just want to Basically

29:10

give a shout out to Anglicanism

29:12

, or at least the church of England

29:14

. Sorry , anglicanism is not technically a denomination

29:16

. The church of England is

29:18

a denomination and therefore , if

29:21

one believes in bishops or Whether

29:23

one believes that there should be bishops , i'm sure you believe

29:26

that bishops exist . The

29:28

beauty , when it works well , is

29:30

that a denomination can more

29:32

reliably and responsibly and responsively

29:35

generate materials for

29:37

a perceived need within parishes

29:40

, within churches , and therefore

29:42

we don't need to worry that this isn't our

29:44

material Or

29:47

that this is going to come with theological emphases that

29:49

we don't teach you know . So there

29:51

are , there are plenty of , let's say

29:53

, that you are part of a cessationist Denomination

29:56

which I believe technically the church of England

29:59

is . This may be news to quite

30:01

a lot of people , but I think it . I think it is to

30:03

a holy trinity . Brompton , Yeah , yes but

30:05

if you but if you take a lot of material

30:08

from , say , a Pentecostal ministry

30:10

, then you're going to bump up against

30:12

a lot of their priors which aren't aren't actually what

30:14

you teach and therefore , yeah , that's going

30:16

to be very messy and

30:19

mixed and , i would say , a lot of church

30:21

of England . Anglicanism , especially

30:24

conservative evangelical Anglicanism

30:26

, is functionally Baptist

30:28

, is functionally non-conformist

30:31

, because we are drinking

30:33

deeply from the resources and wells

30:36

of Ministries

30:38

that come from all kinds of places , for example

30:40

, the nine marks material , which

30:43

is not , i don't think , specifically Baptist

30:45

, although many , many members of it Would

30:48

be obviously capital Baptist church , certainly

30:50

coming from a more congregational , independent

30:52

model of exactly . Yeah , and

30:55

there are a lot also Australian

30:57

churches as well , and obviously there are Anglican Australian

30:59

churches too , but there's an awful lot of confusion

31:03

and within the

31:05

denomination , That because

31:07

, because I think when they're , when there does come

31:09

a uh , what

31:12

do they call it in 1662 ? The

31:14

great ejection , or something like that's when lots

31:16

of Puritans were thrown out of the

31:18

church of England There

31:21

may be another one of those coming when lots

31:23

of people decide to leave . But

31:25

one of the charges against those leaving

31:28

from Anglicans

31:30

would be you were never Anglican to begin

31:32

with . You didn't use any

31:34

of our material , you barely used our liturgies

31:36

. You barely , you know , went

31:38

to Darcy's and synods . You

31:40

didn't , you know , you weren't

31:42

Anglicans , because all of the

31:45

para church material and ministry was

31:47

coming from independent

31:49

evangelical Baptist

31:52

, non-conformist American

31:54

southern Baptists , sovereign

31:56

grace , all these other ministries

31:58

which are , which are not Anglican . So There

32:01

is a glory in a denomination

32:03

that can basically Do it all

32:05

in house , so that there is a consistency .

32:08

Well , but that's interesting though , isn't it ? because What

32:10

would that look like in the church of England , given that it

32:12

is a very broad church ? This

32:15

, again , i think , is something you see a lot

32:17

with para church ministries , when they start becoming

32:20

quite big And they're looking to equip

32:22

. You know both the southern baptist

32:24

church over here in north carolina

32:26

, but also , you know , maybe , an Anglican

32:29

church in in , you know , birmingham

32:31

, um , in the uk

32:33

rather than Alabama , it can start

32:35

creating a kind of all right . Well , we can't

32:37

be too specific about what we think

32:40

about certain biblical things , so things

32:42

get necessarily kind of

32:44

watered down a little bit . We don't want to

32:46

speak too clearly about , for example , eschatology

32:48

. We don't want to speak too clearly about

32:50

pneumatology , because we might put off

32:52

the charismatic , you know , and so

32:54

what you end up with is is , is rather

32:57

a Deracinated , as

32:59

it could be the word of the episode could be , excellent , rather

33:01

a sort of a Blending down of

33:04

god's word , a smoothing out of the , the

33:06

, the interesting edges and angles , and I think

33:08

that again is one of those areas where There's

33:11

pressure from a paratrooper into

33:14

the local church can be unhelpful . It can

33:16

help to , it can be a bit

33:18

of a Trojan horse , theologically speaking .

33:20

For that reason , I wonder

33:22

if you know . Another example of this happening would

33:24

be even Roman Catholics have leaned

33:26

into some

33:28

evangelical sources

33:30

. More recently , the Alpha course

33:33

, i believe , has had quite a life within Roman

33:35

Catholicism .

33:36

And one would argue that's precisely because

33:39

it has been argued So

33:42

sort of theologically

33:44

minimal Right That

33:47

it enables both Roman Catholics and Protestants

33:49

to go . Yeah , this is great , we can use this in our church .

33:51

Yes , which to some seems a bug

33:54

and to others seems to be a feature .

33:55

Seems a feature , but I would say .

33:57

The other thing that makes me think of is Billy

34:00

Graham . So that was your

34:02

ultimate paratroop organization

34:05

.

34:05

Right .

34:05

And there were an awful lot of people bringing

34:08

their churches

34:10

and friends of their churches , and again

34:12

it was he shared platforms with with

34:15

Roman Catholics as well as Protestants and

34:17

Charismatics and Pentecostals and everybody

34:19

and liberals . Yeah , and

34:21

so there is an element of

34:23

legacy of that , i think , and

34:26

I was quite surprised when I actually read evangelicals

34:29

divided .

34:30

I think divided evangelicals in

34:32

Murray's book .

34:33

Yeah , i was quite surprised that , frankly

34:36

, who Billy Graham ?

34:37

is How ecumenical it became . Yeah , yeah

34:40

, to the point of like I don't .

34:42

I'm not sure there's any

34:44

.

34:44

Well , that , of course , is the big question hanging

34:46

over the legacy of those huge kind

34:48

of rallies in the 50s , 60s , 70s , 80s

34:51

. What do we do with people

34:53

if they come to the front at a Billy Graham rally

34:55

or a Louise Palau rally or whatever it is ? Where

34:58

do they go after that ? And I know because my

35:00

dad was worked

35:02

at these rallies and was and went through the

35:04

kind of training for this that the aim was obviously

35:06

to bring them into a local church . But

35:08

the problem is you've already part partnered with Roman

35:11

Catholics and also some of the more liberal church and

35:13

so on , so you have no real control

35:15

over where people are then channeled

35:17

after they profess faith . That

35:20

, i would say , is a bug rather than a feature

35:22

.

35:22

And it goes back to another regular refrain . I'm

35:24

sure we could get a chatbot just to do this podcast

35:27

now without us . That's only

35:29

just a guarantee . What you win

35:31

people with is what you

35:33

win them to , to . That's right . So

35:35

if you win people with an entirely

35:38

ecumenical ministry

35:40

, then you're winning them to a

35:43

pretty non specific , non denominational .

35:45

Yes .

35:45

De-raccinated gospel .

35:47

Thanks . Yes

35:51

, i think that is . I think that's right And it's of course

35:53

it's very well meaning . We're not meaning to sort of impugn

35:55

motives here . I

35:59

mean , billy Graham was somebody who have a lot of admiration

36:01

for in lots of ways , but

36:04

I think that is a problem because

36:06

the organization was so

36:08

detached from the local church . It

36:10

caused some real problems in terms of

36:13

discipling people post

36:15

post rally . You

36:18

know this is speaking of somebody who went forward at

36:20

Billy Graham rally himself and a Louise Palau

36:22

one in the 80s . You

36:25

know there was no sense of right . Well , where are you going to

36:27

now ? What are you plugged into ? a church , what kind of

36:29

church is it , you know ? is it actually

36:31

being run along biblical lines ? That really

36:34

wasn't the aim . The aim was let's just get people

36:36

converted . Yeah . So

36:38

I would argue that's not

36:40

in one sense , that's not a helpful fulfillment of

36:42

the Great Commission , because you're not really making disciples

36:45

, you're just making converts .

36:47

Yes , and in the very next episode

36:49

, which we have already recorded , we talk

36:52

about conversionism as

36:54

being one of the whole marks of evangelicalism

36:57

. And

37:00

these are the kinds of problems

37:03

, downstream , you get from a culture

37:05

of conversionism Again , much of which goes back

37:07

to the 18th 19th century and the William

37:09

Wilber forces , who were evangelical

37:12

and evangelistic in what

37:14

they were trying to do . But , in

37:16

there .

37:17

Yes .

37:17

But if you're doing that outside of a

37:20

local church setting which

37:23

is a ministry of word and sacrament

37:25

, which also has discipline

37:28

built into it , Yeah

37:30

, yeah . At that point , if it isn't rooted

37:33

in that it is just a lifestyle , yeah

37:36

, and it isn't , and it isn't any more than that

37:38

. It may be a serious

37:40

lifestyle or committed lifestyle , but it isn't . It

37:43

isn't what I don't think what we are called to is it

37:45

So ? it's a podcast

37:47

, yeah . About theology

37:49

Yeah , and the church , yeah

37:52

, and culture Yeah , and

37:55

there are jingles Yeah . Why

37:58

is that Um

38:00

?

38:04

For me , paratroch organizations are

38:06

at their best when quick shout

38:08

out to Cure International . They're at their best

38:10

when they are not . There's no encroachment

38:13

on the role of the local church . So Cure

38:15

International exists to build hospitals

38:17

all over the world , developing countries

38:19

, to make the gospel

38:21

known in the context of medical

38:24

and particularly curing sick

38:26

children off , and brand Hansen is an

38:28

ambassador for Cure . I think that's a wonderful

38:31

example of how

38:33

a paratroch can , as it were , be an arm

38:35

of the church , doing things which the church itself

38:38

as a local institution is not

38:40

called to do , but which is a natural

38:42

outworking of the gospel . That

38:45

, i think , is a paratroch ministry at

38:47

its best , and it's a sort of specialization , of

38:49

course , that that a local church couldn't

38:51

possibly do , unless they happen to have a lot of

38:53

you know orthopedic surgeons in

38:55

there in their midst .

38:56

Yeah , i guess the last point because we

38:58

should probably come into land shortly is

39:01

the sense

39:03

in which I is a lay person . Therefore

39:06

, i'm in danger of

39:08

setting up a paratroch organization as some

39:10

sort of cudgel with

39:12

which to beat local churches

39:14

, all denominations , because I'm not getting Yeah

39:16

. The churches don't get it . They

39:19

don't understand the need for pathfinders

39:22

material . So I'm going to go off and set up a ministry

39:25

and shame them all into . You know that

39:28

that can be one's heart . There's obviously there's a nice

39:30

way of doing it and not very nice way of doing it , but there's

39:32

a sense in which a lay person

39:35

who isn't really accountable in quite the same

39:37

way , can go off and

39:39

just do their own thing . So even

39:41

just my own work that I'm doing on

39:43

this pathfinders material which I think will

39:45

be called bedrock , by the way , which I quite like as a

39:47

title Nice Came up with that . But

39:49

there was a member of our congregation who used to be a

39:52

Bible teacher , bible teacher

39:54

at Corn Hill , who lives literally

39:56

less than a mile for me And I sat

39:58

down with him and just say this is what I'm thinking about , this

40:00

is what the first year's worth of material I think would be

40:02

. Do you have any thoughts on how one could break

40:04

it up and do that ? And he was just like , oh yeah , and recommend

40:07

you read this and I'm going to check in with

40:09

him with some material and that kind of thing and do

40:11

it with people in my

40:13

local church who are particularly gifted

40:15

in this area . I mean he writes he's

40:17

written books about how to preach through specific

40:19

books of the Bible , how to break it up and that

40:21

kind of thing . So in a way I feel like

40:24

God has gifted my

40:26

church to be able to do this kind of

40:28

thing . So it

40:30

feels like all of the things are pointing in the

40:32

right direction , but yeah , If one's

40:34

not just make sure that in your material you say

40:37

page one .

40:38

We are not looking to usurp .

40:40

Yeah .

40:41

You know what you guys do . In fact , we're hoping

40:43

that you know . In a sense , these are sort of

40:45

armbands that you put on your

40:47

training wheels , like we're . We're giving

40:49

you this information , which you might then be able to take

40:51

it and run with it . Yeah , in the future .

40:54

Yeah , because that is literally all I do when

40:56

I'm leading , because we have been using other material

40:59

. What is the passage ? so

41:01

I get the passage and just go right , i'll

41:03

just figure it out . So I spend

41:05

a few days ahead of time reading

41:07

the passage , just thinking about it , preparing

41:10

, writing down some questions , and

41:12

then we just as a group , we just

41:14

go through it , we talk about it . I don't have

41:16

one particular thing that I'm desperate for

41:18

them to learn from this particular passage , but obviously

41:21

I'm aware that there are some conclusions we

41:23

can draw and other conclusions that are probably not particularly

41:25

where this passage is , and I tend to write

41:27

it on the on the back of an envelope . I literally what

41:30

I'm trying to show them is like I'm just

41:32

asking questions of this passage

41:34

. Yes , and there's no , look

41:36

, there's nothing up my sleeves , i don't have some .

41:38

Yes , i'm showing the scaffolding . Yeah , yeah

41:40

.

41:42

And hey , you know this phrase in the Bible , where we heard that

41:44

phrase before .

41:45

And so what you're doing then is you're saying OK

41:47

, look , i'm not just going to keep building

41:49

the wells for you , i'm going to give you the tools to build the world

41:51

, the world yourself , in future . Here are the

41:53

source of questions I'm asking you guys can do this too

41:56

.

41:56

Yeah , but yeah . So I think yeah

41:59

, there's a danger that the power church becomes a

42:01

passion project for

42:03

a lay person in an attempt

42:06

to bend the church to their will . And

42:09

there's a good version of

42:11

that , which is this person has a gift and a passion

42:13

which others could do well to learn from

42:16

. But there's another version of it , which is this is

42:18

this is somebody with

42:20

an axe to grind .

42:22

Yes , it's blowback into the , theological

42:24

blowback , which may not be helpful . Yeah , yeah .

42:29

And using money and influence to kind of to have a disproportionate

42:31

say within , within the church

42:33

?

42:33

Yes , And so it can

42:35

often be the case , particularly with what we might think of

42:37

a social justice type

42:39

concerns , where you

42:42

have a power church which exists , let's say , to

42:44

create women's crisis

42:46

centers . This is a wonderful thing to do

42:48

, to have those around . We know

42:50

we support those at our church , but you

42:52

can quite often , if you know , have that

42:54

become a thing . Well , this is something that the

42:57

church , the local church , ought to be doing itself

43:00

, and I don't think that's

43:02

right . I think the local

43:04

church has a particular role to make disciples of all nations

43:06

, and then you would expect

43:08

those disciples to then go out and do those

43:10

sorts of ministries . But it's not the primary

43:13

function of local church and the danger can come where

43:15

you have these people very passionate about their particular

43:17

power church cause , they come into local church

43:19

and say , hey , you guys are not doing this . You ought to be

43:21

doing this as a church . The

43:23

local church needs to be know that . I don't think

43:26

that is that's helpful at all and

43:28

and historically , where that's happened , you've

43:30

seen terrible mission drift happening

43:32

in local churches , where they take their eye off

43:34

the ball of making disciples of all nations in

43:37

order to , you know , create the

43:39

crisis centers for women or soup kitchens

43:41

, whatever you name it And before

43:43

you know it , they've basically let go of their primary

43:46

role , which is preaching the Gospel , making disciples

43:48

of all nations , And not just we hear

43:50

that as making converts to all nations but disciples

43:53

, learners , people who are continually

43:55

learning and maturing in the faith

43:58

, rather than just the evangelistic

44:00

giant , you know pyramid Matthew's

44:02

, matthew's as it says in Greek . I

44:04

believe It does .

44:06

Even I know that , and none of it , that's

44:09

right .

44:09

I'm still teaching myself .

44:10

I was doing second heiress this morning And

44:13

, wow , it's a whole load of extra

44:15

regular verbs .

44:16

So you're talking out of your heiress now .

44:18

I am very much so . Yes , yes

44:20

, that's great . With all my endings , we

44:26

should probably wrap this up , yes .

44:28

And by all means . You know I'm sure

44:30

you're going to have plenty of feedback Listeners

44:32

. As usual , you'll have opinions . Yes

44:34

, your other views are available . Do let us

44:36

know . Do email James at JamesCarrieMinistriesorg

44:39

and to get some answers

44:41

to that , or alternatively you can make it more joyous

44:43

, JamesCarrie International Ministries .

44:45

Sorry .

44:46

JamesCarrie International . That's right Offices

44:48

in Paris , milan , new York . Yes , yeah

44:51

, get in touch with us at Cooper

44:53

and Carrie at gmailcom And

44:55

we promise to read . We can't promise to respond

44:58

to every single email , but we certainly will promise and

45:00

we do Both of us read all the emails

45:02

that come in .

45:02

We do So , thank you for that . We don't get so

45:04

many that we just oh no , we

45:06

just completely lost track of all these emails . No

45:09

, No , We go . Oh , we've had an email . Oh , look at

45:11

that Did we say that , oh

45:13

, okay , right , and

45:16

.

45:17

I think we're going to be hanging

45:19

on the line a little bit . For those people who are Cooper

45:22

and Carrie Plus subscribers or patreons

45:24

, we are going to be talking a bit

45:26

more , getting into some questions from

45:29

our Patreons , cooper and Carrie Plus

45:31

members , getting into the weeds a bit there

45:33

. So if you'd like to join that happy band , click

45:36

on subscribe in Apple Podcast or go to

45:38

patreoncom , just do a Google search

45:40

for Patreon , cooper and Carrie .

45:42

That sounds like a good idea .

45:43

Or look at the show notes . There'll be links there .

45:45

Yeah , yeah . Which are now much enhanced

45:47

because we're now using AI on our show notes

45:49

.

45:50

We're giving it a trial . Yes , artificial

45:52

intelligence is , let's say , assisting us with

45:54

our show notes .

45:55

Yes , that's right , and it's that . And one day it'll

45:57

learn our voices completely . It knows all our

45:59

priors and this podcast

46:02

can go on indefinitely without

46:04

us needing to do it or you needing to listen

46:07

to it .

46:07

That's very much the aim , isn't it ? We don't really need artificial intelligence . No

46:09

, i don't think we need artificial intelligence , we just need a couple of monkeys

46:11

. I think could probably do the job fairly well , but

46:13

obviously it's a bit more , because the cost of bananas

46:16

makes that probably unworkable .

46:18

And over on the Patreons , I think we will have a conversation

46:20

about how this podcast itself

46:22

is in danger of being a parachurch organization

46:25

. How about that ?

46:25

Yeah , that's right . Yeah , I think that's a good question

46:28

to ask .

46:28

Thanks very much for listening , cheerio .

46:30

Love you guys . Bye .