1:52

Hello and welcome to Cooper

1:54

and Carey . Have Words . My name is

1:56

James Carey . I live in the south west

1:58

of England at a county called Somerset . It

2:00

is a glorious place and it is summer here

2:02

, but not too hot . At the time of recording

2:04

. The rest of the world sounds like it's

2:06

on fire , including possibly

2:09

in Florida , where my friend and co-host

2:11

Barry Cooper is . Are you on fire there , barry

2:13

?

2:14

I'm not literally on fire , but in maybe

2:16

in a metaphorical sense , james . Yeah

2:18

, totally on fire . As you can imagine , my

2:20

wife's completely addicted to a BBC show

2:23

called Escape to the Country , and there was a recent

2:25

episode there that was centered

2:27

on Somerset . So that made us feel very sort

2:29

of nostalgic for home , and

2:32

I think there's a good chance that a small

2:34

cottage in Somerset may exist

2:36

in our future , so that's fun .

2:39

Well , that would be good , wouldn't it ? So today

2:41

we're going to get straight in , no waggling . We're

2:43

talking about what unbelievers

2:46

believe , and Barry and

2:48

I have been thinking about this completely independently

2:50

of each other . I don't quite know what the other one's going to say

2:52

, but this is something I've been thinking

2:54

about for a while , and also

2:56

Barry's been reading a book , which

2:59

he'll mention in a moment . But the big question

3:01

is what do unbelievers , non-christians

3:04

, people who don't call themselves Christians , what do they actually

3:06

believe ? Because it isn't nothing . It's a whole bag

3:09

of things , and obviously there are a thousand

3:11

different types of non-Christian

3:14

belief as well . So we'll get into those and

3:17

then also just maybe landing it in the question

3:19

how should this therefore affect

3:21

our evangelism ? Because I

3:23

wonder if our evangelism is a little bit one note

3:26

, and we're still trying to do it like it's the 90s

3:28

convince people of their sin and tell them the good

3:30

news that there's a savior , and whilst that is

3:32

true and right , there may

3:34

be other touch points , and we

3:36

talked a little about this with Dan

3:39

Strange , didn't we ? The magnetic points in

3:41

our wrong Bavic episode

3:43

. So I guess it's a bit of a continuation of

3:45

that . So , but , barry

3:48

, you've been reading a book , I read the first chapter

3:50

or two of it . Why don't you say a bit about

3:52

Strange Rights by Tara

3:54

Burton ?

3:55

Strange Rights looks like this if you're watching the video Strange

3:57

Rights . She has written

3:59

this book , which is all about new religions for a

4:01

godless world . 55

4:04

years have passed , it says on the

4:06

fly leaf , since the cover of Time

4:09

Magazine proclaimed the death of God . Yet while participation

4:12

in mainstream religion has indeed plummeted

4:14

, it says here , Americans have never

4:16

been more spiritually busy . While

4:18

rejecting traditional worship in unprecedented numbers

4:20

, today's Americans are embracing a kaleidoscopic

4:23

panoply of spiritual traditions , rituals

4:25

and subcultures , from astrology

4:28

and witchcraft to soul cycle

4:30

and the alt right . So

4:32

clearly , without any apology

4:35

, tara is giving a very broad

4:37

definition of religion , which essentially

4:39

is anything which brings people

4:42

a sense of community , a sense of purpose

4:44

, a sense of meaning . And , of

4:46

course , if you use a definition

4:48

that broad , then you can bring in such things

4:50

as soul cycle . I might even

4:52

add to that and it's certainly not

4:54

original to me the idea of sport as being

4:56

a religion , which I think is a big thing in

4:58

the US and also in the UK , and I

5:00

think it's a fair enough thesis , isn't

5:03

it ? The idea that we have a kind

5:05

of God shaped whole and therefore

5:07

, if we have rejected the

5:09

traditional concepts of God

5:12

in the mainstream religions , then

5:14

we don't just kind of live

5:16

a life suddenly where we have nothing in that

5:18

whole . We have to put something in there and

5:21

something will get sucked into it , whatever that is . So

5:23

basically she goes through over multiple chapters and

5:25

teases out all kinds of outre

5:28

religions . You know Harry

5:30

Potter fandom and you know all

5:33

kinds of weird and wonderful stuff . What

5:35

did you make of the bit that you've read ? How did it

5:37

? How did that strike you ?

5:38

Yeah , that was about that opening chapters

5:41

, about this kind of live performance

5:43

of this thing that you go . It's a totally immersive

5:45

performance , isn't ?

5:46

it , yeah , and I've been to something

5:48

similar when I was in the UK . It's pretty fantastic

5:52

.

5:52

It's a version of a Shakespeare play , isn't it ? Is

5:54

it Macbeth or something

5:56

? One of them was yeah yeah , and there are

5:58

witches in it and you go into this

6:00

house and the actors are kind of mixed

6:02

in amongst you and it just becomes a thing . And

6:04

this writer , tara , just

6:06

got completely addicted to it and went to it several

6:09

times , even though it costs a hundred dollars or

6:11

more , and that people were going back again

6:14

and again and again and it kind of consumed

6:16

people's lives and disposable

6:18

income and it

6:20

did feel almost cult-like

6:23

in its religious . Yes

6:25

, it felt like a religious replacement , but wasn't

6:28

planning to be religion and I you said the

6:30

word spiritual and I think Christians have got a big track

6:32

record of going oh , spiritual

6:35

but not religious . I'll pick a team . You

6:38

know it feels a bit Babylon B snarky , doesn't

6:40

it , when to be disparaging of , of

6:42

unbelievers , to say , you know

6:45

, is to kind of dignify the fact that they

6:47

consider themselves spiritual was actually quite

6:49

a mean disposition

6:51

. But actually what Tara is

6:53

showing in that really strange I

6:55

mean strange rights , this kind of odd immersive

6:58

theatre is that people really are searching

7:00

and it's kind of sad and these people don't deserve

7:03

contempt but in some ways

7:05

pity .

7:05

But actually , just just listen

7:07

, just listen , yeah , and when

7:10

you think about the way that Paul preaches

7:13

, when he says , you know , I see that in every

7:15

way you're very religious , he

7:17

doesn't say , well , I've seen these . You

7:19

know the thing to an unknown

7:21

god , you're not really religious

7:23

. This is real religion . Let me tell

7:25

you about Jesus . He actually says , no

7:27

, you are very religious , and so he does

7:29

use it as a sort of a common ground . So maybe we

7:31

ought to be less snarky

7:34

and more willing to take that approach .

7:35

Yeah , I'm thinking there's a new version of that

7:38

, of that sermon , isn't there ? I saw

7:41

a plaque to an unknown god . Really

7:44

, really , you know

7:46

. It's like seriously , are we doing

7:48

this ? Come on , people , you

7:50

know he doesn't do that , does he ? He leans it and he's

7:53

not someone who is you know , he's

7:55

someone who doesn't shy away from controversy , right

7:57

?

7:57

Yeah , not touchy-feely necessarily . So

8:00

, yes , I think that's absolutely right

8:02

. So Strange Rights is kind of a book-long

8:05

demonstration of the fact that nature appores

8:07

about Cume and that , yes , as Christians

8:10

we ought to maybe see

8:12

where there is common ground , I think , where

8:15

this . I'm going to push back slightly on the

8:17

snarkiness thing , because I do think there

8:19

are definitely times when you're talking to people who say

8:21

so yeah , well , I'm spiritual

8:23

and not religious that

8:26

you get the sense , as you

8:28

tease that out , that really what they're saying is

8:30

I want to be considered as quite

8:32

a sensitive sort of person who's

8:34

thought a lot about the world , but I just

8:37

don't want to be tied down with any kind of

8:39

commitment . I want freedom to be able to completely

8:41

define myself , what I

8:43

do and what God looks like , if anything

8:45

, and that does feel

8:47

obviously quite self-serving , but

8:50

it's probably not a great thing to lead with . Well

8:52

, you're just incredibly selfish , is it ? No matter

8:54

how you look at it .

8:56

Yeah , yes , sorry . Oh , would you like me to hold up

8:58

a mirror to you ? Narcissist

9:00

Too much .

9:01

Yeah , yeah yeah , too much . I

9:03

think we could be best friends . Yeah , it's

9:05

not going to happen . So I think there is a lot

9:08

in that . What do you read ? My lord

9:10

Words

9:16

, words

9:18

, words , words . You

9:29

narrow your focus to just talking about the United States

9:31

and possibly the UK and Canada as

9:33

well , because certainly , if you look at the trend worldwide

9:36

, I don't think it is true to say that traditional

9:39

religion is on the decline

9:41

. I mean , even the Guardian is saying that that's

9:43

not the case .

9:46

So in South America , China , basically

9:48

the whole of the rest of the world .

9:50

So , but yes , if you're just prepared

9:52

to go right , let's just think about the states and maybe the UK

9:55

. There's a lot in this . She's a very

9:57

good , she's

9:59

got excellent journalistic tendencies

10:02

and it means that there's a wonderful sort of granular

10:04

, almost exhaustive and exhausting

10:06

kind of teasing out

10:08

of the taxonomies of religion on the left

10:11

and the right in the centre , and she basically

10:13

ends up with three broad kind

10:15

of definitions of the new religious

10:17

folks . She's basically

10:20

saying there's folks on

10:23

the left , the progressive left , she calls it , which is kind of

10:25

the social justice movement . That's the sort of religion

10:27

. There are kind of the centrist techno

10:29

utopians , people like Elon Musk and

10:32

lots of the folks in Silicon

10:34

Valley . That's another religion . And

10:36

then you've got what she calls , I think , the atavistic

10:38

right , which are

10:40

, you know , bronze age pervert and you

10:42

know , even , you know , think , jordan Peterson

10:44

, adherents of his work , which

10:46

is another sort of religion . But it's

10:49

those three main strands that she ends

10:51

up concluding are very much

10:53

growing in the United States .

10:56

And I think that's a fair reflection

10:58

. And the book was three years old

11:00

and I think it has got

11:02

a fair amount of traction , hasn't it ? And I think you're

11:04

right , it is American specific

11:06

in one sense .

11:08

It does make sense of the sort of the tribalism

11:10

that we're seeing , doesn't it ? I think that's one really helpful

11:12

thing that comes out of the book If

11:14

we're trying to understand why people are just so

11:17

freaking intolerant of each

11:19

other , now more than they seem

11:21

to be 10 years ago . this

11:23

has great explanatory power because

11:25

it's not just a difference of opinion anymore

11:27

, it's a difference of religion . It's

11:29

a fundamental fault

11:31

line between folks in terms of the way

11:34

they see the hope for humanity

11:36

and , you know , our

11:38

chances of surviving as a human

11:40

race . These are really sort of big questions

11:43

. It's not just how you vote at

11:45

the ballot .

11:45

Yeah , I read an interesting review of the book on

11:47

the Solas website

11:50

by a guy called Chris Smart , who is actually

11:52

American , and he said

11:54

he says Burton's main premise

11:56

is that , despite the variety of these beliefs , they share

11:59

common aspirations for meaning and purpose . Therefore

12:02

, she states , america is not secular , but

12:04

simply spiritually self

12:06

focused . I passed

12:08

her in the States and I think she's right . The country is

12:10

drowning in ideologies and , in the process

12:12

, becoming more divided

12:14

than ever . And it's interesting , isn't

12:16

it , that these non specific

12:18

theologies aren't

12:21

actually uniting people . People

12:23

aren't celebrating difference

12:25

or not feeling threatened by other groups

12:27

. Actually , they're making people trenchant in these

12:29

, in these different silos , aren't they ? Yes

12:31

?

12:31

I think trenchant ought to be the word of the podcast

12:34

. That's excellent , yeah

12:36

, and it is because

12:38

it is essentially self focused . What's interesting

12:41

in in in strange rights in the book

12:43

, is that she says that

12:45

the one thing that unites , or three

12:48

of those major strands that she identifies

12:50

, is that they're essentially pagan in

12:52

outlook , meaning that

12:54

the God in each of these religions

12:56

is basically you . It's

12:59

either human intelligence or human emotion

13:01

, or human DNA . So all

13:04

of these religions envision that the

13:06

ultimate good is within the world

13:08

rather than beyond the world

13:10

, as Christians or or

13:12

Jews or Muslims would would

13:15

understand it . So that's very much

13:17

a major difference between , though

13:19

, these new religions and the and

13:21

the more traditional religions is that it's essentially

13:24

self focused and contained

13:27

within the world , and and if that's the case , then

13:29

it again , it makes it makes sense

13:32

that that would lead to tremendous fragmentation

13:34

and conflict between people

13:36

, because , yeah , if you're , if

13:38

you're self focused , then it's very hard to

13:40

find common ground with other people .

13:42

I would say Hmm , that's

13:45

really interesting because in a way , it kind of opens up

13:47

to completely different

13:49

forms of belief . There's

13:51

the pagan view , which

13:53

is as you've described it , which

13:56

is , ultimately it's about your ancestors

13:58

or it's about you , or it's about something

14:00

within nature , a created thing

14:02

, which they would say isn't a created

14:04

thing , it's just a thing , a spiritual

14:06

thing . But then there's the other

14:09

view , which is the belief

14:11

in the supernatural , and that there's definitely

14:13

something out there that reveals itself

14:16

in certain ways . So that would

14:18

be spiritualism as

14:21

well , as , obviously , you know mainstream

14:23

religions , but

14:25

they're actually very different , aren't

14:27

they ? And I think , in a way , people maybe

14:29

aren't really differentiating between the two

14:32

. I mean , having said that , there are there are people , I

14:34

guess , who are involved in paganism , literal

14:36

paganism and wicker stuff , where

14:38

maybe they think this is just talking

14:41

to themselves or talking

14:43

to the universe in a non specific way , but but

14:46

I guess there are others who really do know what they're doing and they really

14:48

do think there are spirits out

14:50

there who can be controlled and that we're getting into

14:52

witchcraft at that point .

14:53

Well , you said a very interesting thing there the spirits

14:56

and things like that which can be controlled , and

14:58

I think that's the issue . So , even

15:00

if you believe there is something , as it were

15:02

, supernatural , sort of a

15:05

ghost in the machine , the

15:07

fact is it's something that you can control

15:09

, you can get it to do your bidding and

15:12

therefore , again , the focus is you . So

15:15

I think that is a hallmark of

15:17

even those people who who

15:19

now are showing that you know , these rationalists

15:22

, former rationalists , who are now moving

15:24

into the area of the post rationalist movement

15:26

, which does see the value in

15:28

traditional religion . But the

15:30

big caveat is it only

15:32

sees positivity

15:35

in those things in so far

15:37

as they seem to serve you . So

15:40

for example , you'll have a lot of rationalists

15:42

or post rationalists who will say , yeah , I can

15:44

see the benefit of organized religion because science

15:47

has shown that adherents of traditional

15:49

religious belief live longer and

15:51

are less depressive and

15:53

are , you know , have lower blood pressure and

15:56

therefore the religion is

15:58

a good thing , because it's good kind of . For

16:00

me , it's very self focus , what it can

16:02

do for me . There's a real pragmatism

16:05

there . So again , I would argue

16:07

that even in those cases , or people who

16:09

are , you know , witches , who really

16:11

believe in some sort of other outside

16:13

themselves , essentially you're

16:15

in it for what you can get out of this higher

16:18

power .

16:22

Cover and carry are having words , words

16:25

, words . So many words would you believe

16:27

they're having more words . Someone should tell them

16:29

to stop , as you were saying that just

16:31

reminded me of . There are a number of people

16:33

who have moved away from that strident

16:36

secularism and they're just

16:38

using completely different language

16:40

now and you know they're not particularly

16:42

shining examples . You

16:46

know , then they wouldn't call themselves Christians , but I'm

16:48

just thinking . I was listening to an interview

16:50

with James Lindsay the other day , who's made

16:52

a name for himself as a

16:54

sort of an anti critical theory

16:57

, anti neo Marxist Kind

17:00

of guy . He wrote a book called cynical

17:03

theories . In fact I think you read that book .

17:05

Yeah , that rings bell .

17:06

Yeah , it's written with Helen with . Written

17:09

with Helen Pluck Rose , which is

17:11

a wonderful name , and

17:13

he started out . His

17:15

first book in 2012 was called God

17:17

Doesn't we Do ? Only Humans

17:20

Can Solve Human Challenges , that's the

17:22

title , did you say ? Yeah

17:24

, that's the title of his first book , according

17:26

to his Wikipedia page , and

17:29

he then kind of moved . So

17:31

he was part of a happily within the new

17:33

atheist movement and in the orbit of

17:36

the Sam Harris's of

17:38

this world . But it's interesting as he's Moved

17:41

through . You know his next book is called

17:43

dot , dot , dot . Infinity plus God

17:45

equals folly . Interesting , 2015

17:48

. Everybody is wrong about

17:50

God . I love it . But

17:52

then he gets into part from me , this

17:54

kind of yeah , attacking

17:57

the paralysis in his view

17:59

of academia , within the critical theory

18:01

, and he basically Put published

18:03

hoax papers to try to get them Taken

18:06

seriously and some of them were . He wrote

18:08

20 hoax papers with pluck rose , who wrote

18:10

that book with you and and Bogossian

18:13

, and so eventually this all came out

18:15

, that this stuff had been taken seriously

18:18

. But he's continued . He

18:20

continued on this trajectory towards a more

18:22

conservative viewpoint because he's sort of seen

18:24

where this Godlessness goes

18:26

from , where , if reality or

18:28

truth , is self-defined in some

18:31

way . He's now looking

18:33

at various forms of critical theory just thinking , well

18:35

, this is absolutely insane and

18:37

I I don't have the ammo to

18:39

shoot this down . I don't have

18:42

anything on which to , I don't

18:44

have any hooks which are permanently

18:46

in position On which to hang

18:49

any kind of you

18:51

know ropes that'll keep us anchored . Yes , so

18:54

I was hearing him talk very differently

18:57

About , about , you

18:59

know , judeo Christian faith or something like

19:01

that . I can't remember when , but

19:03

, but a lot of these

19:05

guys have gone on this journey , haven't they ? You know

19:07

, poor Kings north will be another one where he's fully embraced

19:09

Christianity and sort of Romanian

19:13

orthodox . He's an orthodox . Yeah form . So

19:16

it feels . It just feels to me like the

19:18

new atheism has definitely run out of

19:20

road . Yeah , but

19:22

that everything downstream from that feels

19:24

like that's running out of road as well .

19:26

Yeah , that's right . It you know , going back

19:28

what ? 15 years . Now To

19:31

the new atheists , the four horsemen of the atheist

19:33

apocalypse and , at the time , they're

19:35

obviously an awful lot of ink was spilled in conservative

19:37

Christian circles trying to sort of rebut the

19:41

likes of Dawkins and the likes of , you

19:43

know , christopher Hitchens and so on , and

19:45

it just feels now it's as if

19:47

people have read that and said it

19:50

doesn't have enough explanatory power

19:52

to explain my experience

19:54

of life . Yeah

19:56

, and when you try and live

19:59

according to the principles that are outlined

20:01

famously by those guys

20:04

, you end up living a life where you

20:06

experience a kind of vitamin sorry , vitamin

20:08

deficiency Is

20:11

why I saw you .

20:12

I've changed .

20:14

You , you feel a kind of vitamin deficiency , you

20:16

feel Deneuded , you feel

20:18

sort of stripped of aspects of

20:20

your being that you really want to hang on to

20:22

, because , yeah , it just

20:24

doesn't make sense . I mean , what do you do with the experience

20:26

of falling in love ? What do you do with the experience of

20:28

listening to a , you know , a bark cantata

20:31

or Symphony , or writing a poem

20:33

, or just just wondering at nature ? You could

20:35

it doesn't really do to say , well

20:37

, we've evolved to feel that way

20:40

, to have these feelings about these things

20:42

, and actually any sense of the transcendent

20:44

is just a delusion . You're being tricked

20:46

. It's a kind of a mental , you

20:49

know , brain , chemical trick that's being played

20:51

on you . It doesn't really add up , does it in our

20:53

experience ? And so , yes , I think you're

20:55

right , it doesn't have , it

20:58

doesn't have enough explanatory power , anything

21:00

like to be a , a

21:02

consistent movement . But

21:04

, james , to what extent do you think this is

21:06

just like a Ciclical thing

21:08

, a fashion thing ? Do you think that ? It's just that

21:10

we tend to sort of , like a pinball , go

21:13

between two extremes ? As a culture ? We've had

21:15

this sort of the very Strictly

21:17

materialistic , pragmatic side

21:20

of things , and we we've , we're kind of , we've

21:22

decided we don't like that . So now we're rebounding

21:24

back towards a more quote-unquote spiritual view

21:27

of the world . Probably , given another 10 , 15

21:29

years , it might sort of bag a tail back . Is

21:31

it just because , yeah , that's the way things work , or

21:33

is there something more lasting that might have

21:35

happened ?

21:36

Yeah , I don't know . I mean that's a good , that's

21:38

a good observation . It is very hard to have

21:41

any kind of distance on these cycles

21:43

that are going round , I mean the other cycle

21:45

he says dodging . The question that

21:47

has definitely come round again is remember

21:50

the X files . Do you

21:52

remember the 1990s were

21:54

full of Alien

21:56

abduction stories , x files

21:58

, crop circles , the 40

22:01

in times there was an awful lot of

22:03

talk about ghosts and

22:06

the paranormal and

22:08

then and then that

22:10

slightly went away because I think the new

22:12

atheists at least Kind of terrorized

22:15

people who had this sort of nonspecific

22:17

spiritualist , quasar

22:19

, judeo Christian faith and

22:22

suddenly it was all nonsense and it was all fraud

22:24

, yeah and then I

22:26

don't think that lasted very long because it seems , to

22:28

me at least , that there

22:30

is a huge resurgence of interest

22:33

I say huge , perceptible resurgence

22:35

of interest in the

22:37

supernatural . It's interesting

22:39

that the big hit of

22:42

the last five years on streaming

22:44

is stranger things which

22:47

you really wouldn't have had , I don't

22:49

think , 15 years ago . I just don't think

22:51

that would have been a mainstream thing . It's interesting

22:53

that it's not set today

22:55

but it's set in the past . I don't quite

22:57

know why it rings

23:00

true being a phenomenon of the

23:02

80s rather than now , but

23:05

it seems to me there is a bit of a resurgence . There

23:07

is a BBC radio show

23:09

that I listened to and I'm moderately obsessed with , called

23:12

uncanny , and and

23:14

it's it's off the back of two other

23:16

shows . One was called the Battersea poltergeist

23:19

, which was a drama , a sort of a dramatization

23:21

of a haunted house in

23:23

Battersea . It was quite well documented

23:25

. And then another one called the witch farm , which was a

23:27

an isolated farmhouse out in in

23:30

Wales . But then uncanny kind of spun

23:32

off this and people literally got in

23:34

touch and gave their

23:36

own ghost stories and and

23:38

great theme tune by

23:41

called by a bunch called lanterns on

23:43

the lake , which is very haunting and

23:45

has a lady singing . I know what I

23:47

saw , but the overwhelming

23:49

sense that you get from the people who are

23:51

offering up their stories is I

23:53

Don't actually

23:55

believe in ghosts . Okay , I'm

23:57

not religious , but I have seen

24:00

a ghost . But

24:02

this is what happened . I heard this . This

24:04

then happened . I lived in this house . This happened

24:06

, then this happened , then this happened . Then

24:08

over the course of three years , this happened Until

24:11

this happened and it all came to a head here . You

24:13

know all that kind of stuff , yeah , and

24:15

it just feels

24:17

like a lot of people have got

24:19

a story like that that

24:21

now seems okay to talk about , when

24:24

Previously it wouldn't have been . Yeah , and

24:26

the one thing that I thought there was particularly interesting

24:28

, because it's partly an age Thing

24:31

as well , going back to our new atheism , the

24:34

first story on the first series of uncanny

24:37

that they keep coming back to is

24:39

in a tower block in Belfast

24:41

at the Queens University

24:44

, queens College , and it's

24:47

interesting how the people in that

24:49

room talk about these incredible Senses

24:51

of evil that they felt . And they both had a dream

24:53

at the same time , not knowing the other one did , and a

24:56

whole load of things moving around and

24:58

there was some proper , proper paranormal

25:01

activity . But then they

25:03

discovered people who heard the show , or they'd

25:05

spoken to people who'd been in that room the

25:07

year before or the year before that somebody

25:09

had tried to jump out of the window or kill themselves

25:11

, or , and is that because they felt something

25:14

or because they'd done that ? Did that mean that now

25:16

, future echoes felt something

25:18

? And ? But there was one person who was in the

25:20

room a year or two after them who got

25:22

in contact With the show and said this

25:24

is what happened to me , but you will need

25:26

to disguise my voice and withhold my name

25:29

because I can't

25:31

be associated With this kind

25:33

of thing , even though this person

25:35

said I was revising for my exams

25:38

and my folder flipped open

25:40

and the pages just started wildly

25:43

rustling to and fro and all that

25:45

kind of stuff , along with you know other

25:47

things . But obviously he's an eminent

25:49

scientist . We couldn't possibly admit to

25:52

that because he still got the . But Richard

25:54

Dawkins might be mean to me .

25:56

Kind of mindset yes , and now people don't really

25:59

care .

26:01

Yeah , I've just been fascinated , and I don't

26:03

recall having a supernatural experience

26:05

like that and I'm not particularly eager for one . I'm

26:07

not hoping for that to happen , but

26:10

I am increasingly interested in having

26:12

conversations with people , including

26:14

clergy . Actually , you get called out to go and pray

26:16

with people in these sort of situations . So

26:19

yeah , have you ever had a supernatural experience

26:21

?

26:22

I'm not sure on that one . I mean yes , because I

26:24

became a Christian , so that was a very you

26:29

know what I'm conservative angelical . I can

26:31

Jesus do till the , till the crowns ?

26:34

Yeah .

26:47

It seems intriguing to me that the rise in

26:49

the interest of the paranormal and ghosts

26:51

and UFOs has coincided

26:54

with this recent at

26:56

least promise of a governmental

26:59

UFO information

27:02

dump . That's about to happen , that's being

27:04

talked about , and I just wonder what

27:06

. Well , they've had one .

27:07

I mean , there's only been one .

27:08

But there's going to be this sort of more stuff that's about

27:11

to come out . So , according to the Reddit

27:14

threads that I've been checking out , and

27:16

that is interesting to me because which

27:18

came first ? I mean , is

27:21

it that the evidence quote unquote

27:23

has come out first and then more

27:25

people are going I believe in UFOs , or is

27:27

it that , because more

27:30

people are willing to believe in UFOs

27:32

, this sort of evidence

27:34

is suddenly coming out ? You've got these ? You know F-15

27:37

fighter pilots saying , well , yeah , here's the photos

27:39

. This was my experience . Is it just that

27:41

people , as you've just said

27:43

, is it that for all this time people have felt

27:45

cowed , they're not able to talk about this stuff

27:47

because if they do , they lose their job ? But

27:50

now it feels increasingly OK . I

27:52

just wonder whether the fact that we are now

27:55

more open to

27:57

believing in these kinds of things , which might

27:59

be considered sort of supernatural

28:01

, yeah , that now we

28:04

are going to hear much

28:06

, much more about it , but not just because

28:08

people feel emboldened to talk about it , but

28:10

also because , if there is a

28:12

genuine spiritual dimension to

28:14

this , possibly on the darker

28:16

side of things , that this is a tremendous

28:19

opportunity for principalities

28:22

and powers to sort of get their foot in the door and really

28:25

mislead people . I just

28:27

wonder whether that partly explains why

28:29

we're starting to see a huge explosion

28:31

and talk about UFOs and so on . Yeah

28:34

, Because , it because I've noticed I don't know

28:36

if you've seen this , but when people I

28:38

don't think they're actually called UFOs

28:40

are they really ? They aren't they referred to as unexplained

28:43

, anomalous , anomalous

28:46

phenomenon , right ? What they're saying

28:48

is that actually , when we , these

28:51

strange creatures

28:53

that have sort of crashed into the desert

28:55

of Roswell , that

28:58

the documentation is showing not

29:00

so much that these are extraterrestrial

29:03

as first thought , but that they are

29:05

in some sense interdimensional

29:07

beings , is what they're being called , right , and

29:10

it's just interesting to me that that's

29:12

become a thing . So that

29:15

is really interesting . If your working

29:17

hypothesis is that there's something potentially

29:20

demonic going on here , then

29:23

a good description of that would be a sort of you

29:25

know , an extra dimensional being , it seems to

29:28

me is something that comes from

29:30

an entirely different plane of existence

29:32

would be a good description

29:34

of that . I don't know if you've got any thoughts about whether

29:36

this , these sorts of phenomenon , are truly

29:38

extraterrestrial or whether actually there's something

29:40

else going on .

29:41

Oh yeah , there's definitely something else going on that I don't

29:43

. I simply cannot believe

29:46

that these are beings from

29:48

across the galaxies . I

29:51

think that is just mathematically , physiologically

29:53

, biologically not

29:56

possible .

29:56

Right , is that ? Because you know , if they've got the technology

29:59

to come all the way across the galaxy , seems

30:01

a bit odd that then they would accidentally sort of crash into

30:03

the planet after all of that hard journey , or

30:05

what is it ?

30:06

Yeah , I mean , there are so many things like that and

30:09

the government have known about them all this time and they chose

30:11

the American government and they blow the air , but

30:14

also , yeah , I think it's demonic

30:16

deception . I literally cannot see it as

30:18

any other way and I think it's extremely effective

30:20

, and also the

30:23

way that it's so the inter dimensionality

30:26

, I think again , is something that is a very

30:28

worrying turn of events

30:30

, and this is something that the guys on the , the

30:32

cultish podcast have picked up quite

30:34

a few times , and so

30:36

they've spoken about UFOs and I would

30:38

highly recommend going to have a listen to some

30:40

of their stuff on that because I think it's quite , quite

30:42

well done and responsibly done , because

30:45

their overall thesis is

30:47

whatever whatever your

30:49

starting point into

30:51

the new age is , and

30:53

be that . because you would think to yourself but what have

30:56

UFOs got to do with Reiki ? Yes

30:58

, and what's Reiki got to do with crystals

31:00

? Sage Clemson .

31:01

And what's crystals ?

31:02

got to do with astral projection , right , and

31:04

what is like these ? None of these things

31:06

are linked , are they Surely ? To

31:08

which they would say I think , well

31:10

, they are linked , because it doesn't matter where

31:12

you start , you always

31:14

end up miles away from

31:16

Jesus . No one

31:18

ever went into church and said

31:21

, oh , I became a Christian because I

31:23

saw a UFO . Or no one said

31:25

an alien told me to go to church . Yes , said

31:29

literally no one ever . And it's interesting when

31:31

you dig into some of these experiences that they

31:33

have , quite often A

31:36

people who run

31:38

after UFO experiences

31:40

. They crave them , they want

31:42

to be abducted by them and then they start

31:44

to have these sort of things . There's

31:47

an element of simulation about it , and

31:50

so now there's a whole load of sort of meditation . People

31:52

take drugs to meditate .

31:54

I come in what is called a CBT or something oh

31:57

is it cyber-cylin , like you mean from mushrooms , that kind of stuff . Yeah

32:00

, all those sorts of things .

32:00

Yeah , and

32:03

it's a very popular thing to do now .

32:04

But if you do that , Some might say

32:06

it's the only way to enjoy our podcast .

32:08

really , but

32:10

lots of people have said , yeah , I did that and

32:13

I like the third or fourth time

32:15

it got quite sinister . And

32:17

also one of the people said , oh

32:20

, Jesus was one of us . By the way , Jesus

32:23

is one of these beings kind of thing . It's

32:27

like , oh , that's weird , I wasn't even thinking about Jesus

32:29

, but thanks for that . And

32:31

so it just feels like this

32:33

is a play being run

32:35

and a deception , which

32:38

is extremely effective

32:40

Because it soaks up

32:42

loads and loads of time , makes people

32:44

obsessed with it and

32:47

, essentially , if you say , well , I don't think these are

32:49

literally physical beings from

32:51

another planet , well , this isn't

32:53

angelic , is it ? So , therefore , what

32:55

is it ? You're not really left with any other options , and

32:57

once you see that they always lead you away from

32:59

Jesus , you think , well , okay , I think we can

33:02

tell what that is .

33:03

And related to that . I've found

33:05

in various kind of church settings

33:08

that the professing Christians

33:10

, who seem most wedded to conspiracy

33:13

theorizing , are

33:16

the ones who tend to be most divisive

33:18

in the body . And I think again that's quite

33:20

interesting .

33:21

Yeah , that is interesting , isn't it ?

33:22

I think that's connected and of course it's

33:25

not necessarily that they're believing supernatural

33:27

conspiracy theories , but just the sort of the QA

33:29

non-stuff seems

33:31

, as you say , to drive people not towards

33:34

Jesus but away from Jesus , and

33:36

I've found that , pastually speaking , I'm

33:38

having to continually try and remind those folks

33:40

. It's like , well , even if that's true

33:42

, jesus wins right

33:44

, he's still Lord , like why

33:46

you seem really kind of fearful and antagonistic

33:49

about this and you're not talking

33:51

to me much about Jesus and the Bible , you're

33:54

just talking to me about these conspiracy theories . That seems

33:56

to be taking up a lot of your mind time and your

33:59

CPU cycles .

34:01

Yeah .

34:02

Is that really the way that a Christian

34:04

ought to be ? So there's something

34:06

about grabbing onto that stuff . That means that

34:08

you have to let go of Jesus

34:11

a little bit . Yeah , which

34:13

, yeah . So I think you're dead right on that . And

34:15

of course I mean it feels

34:17

like hovering around , or hovering just over

34:19

this whole discussion is Chesterton's

34:22

famous maxim where he says when

34:24

men choose not to believe in God , they

34:26

do not thereafter believe in nothing

34:28

. They then become capable of

34:30

believing in anything . And

34:33

that seems to me

34:35

to be the dynamic

34:38

that's at play . That

34:40

it's that . We've got this . If you take

34:42

God out of the equation , it creates

34:44

a vacuum into which you will just really believe

34:46

in anything and everything . It just

34:48

becomes much more credible to you .

34:53

Well , my question is this Is

34:55

our language , english , capable

34:58

? Is English capable

35:00

of sustaining demagoguery

35:03

, demagoguery , demagoguery and by demagoguery

35:05

?

35:05

you mean by demagoguery ? I mean demagoguery , I

35:07

thought so .

35:10

So the other thing I just mentioned , I

35:12

read a book just going further down the line

35:15

of the uncanny thing . I

35:17

read a book called Demonic Fos by

35:20

a professor of psychiatry , richard

35:23

Gallagher . He's a professor of

35:25

psych and so his job was to psychologically

35:27

, psychiatrically , assess people who

35:30

were being oppressed or possessed by

35:32

demons . And he's a Roman Catholic and

35:34

he was in contact with some Roman Catholic priests

35:36

who kind of basically did this for a living and

35:38

he would basically say , oh , this person is mentally

35:40

well , but obviously they're experiencing something which requires

35:44

prayer and intervention . And

35:46

so he wrote a quite boringly

35:48

matter of fact book on this

35:51

which was kind of reassuring

35:53

in the sense of he wasn't saying , oh yes

35:55

, the 25,000 patients that I've seen

35:57

in my life all had some kind of demon

35:59

. He said no , no , no , lots of mental illness

36:01

and that's how it works . But

36:04

yeah , so that was quite a helpful book

36:06

because he is bridging the gap between proper

36:08

rigorous science

36:11

and psychiatry

36:13

and this other world , and he was completely

36:15

open to both and therefore the stories

36:17

he tells about stuff that he witnessed when

36:20

there were prayers for people

36:23

who were possessed going on , and

36:25

he said it was interesting how he

36:28

would interview them , maybe several times and

36:30

then eventually , on the third , fourth , fifth time of

36:32

asking , this person would

36:34

say oh , I did use a Ouija board

36:36

for a few months back

36:38

in 2006 .

36:40

Yeah , so I'm sure that's not relevant , but yeah , I just mentioned

36:43

that Back in 2006 .

36:45

Yeah , oh , when did these feelings start happening

36:47

? Yeah , it was about 2006

36:49

. Right , yeah , so

36:51

these were people openly inviting

36:54

themselves . There is something about

36:56

it

36:58

, seems to me , that conservative evangelicals

37:01

particularly we're sort of way behind on this stuff

37:03

and we don't really think about it very much . Yeah . I'll

37:06

say something about that , but

37:09

there is a sense of inviting somebody

37:11

into your body or into your home

37:13

. Yes . Which

37:15

they , the principalities and powers , don't seem

37:17

to have permission to do unless you give them permission

37:20

in some way or another . But again

37:22

, this is all a bit sketchy in

37:24

my own reading .

37:26

I do think there's that reminds me of Matthew 12

37:28

, you know , the return of an unclean spirit

37:30

. You know that bit when Jesus

37:32

says that you know , an

37:35

unclean spirit goes out of a person and

37:38

then it says to itself I will return

37:40

to my house , from which I came . And

37:42

because it's gone , the person into which

37:44

that evil spirit goes

37:46

has , as

37:48

it were , swept themselves clean , put

37:50

everything in order , and I read that

37:52

as where you're basically just making

37:54

yourself again . There's a vacuum there

37:57

. There's an openness , if you like . What

37:59

happens at that point is that not only does

38:01

the evil spirit go in , but seven other

38:03

spirits more evil than itself . They enter

38:06

and dwell there , and the last day of that person

38:08

is worse than the first , and he says so will also

38:10

. Will it be with this evil generation ? I

38:12

think that any generation of people

38:14

which has effectively tried to sweep

38:16

its house clean , actually speaking

38:19

, has emptied itself , is

38:21

going to find then that

38:23

, you know , demons are going to have a field day

38:25

because there's just a sort of an openness

38:27

to all of this stuff . Once

38:31

you get rid of you know the kind

38:33

of traditional religions

38:35

and traditional ways of thinking about God

38:37

and embracing God

38:39

. So I think there's an element of that

38:41

in what you're saying , that the Ouija board

38:43

stuff is . Well , I'm

38:46

a rationalistic person . Things can't possibly

38:48

do me any damage .

38:50

Yeah , so therefore , yeah , so I'm just

38:52

yeah , why are you doing it ?

38:54

I mean , I'm just doing it for a bit of a laugh . Maybe that's what

38:56

a lot of people do . But there is also , I think , a

38:58

belief that you can know it'll be interesting just to

39:00

do an experiment , and if things go south

39:02

, no problem , we'll just put the Ouija board

39:05

back on the top shelf and it won't leave

39:07

any lasting damage . But

39:09

that , yeah , just makes us very open in a

39:11

way that we don't want to be .

39:13

Yes , I won't be haunted for years by evil spirits

39:15

that I don't believe in , and when the evil spirits come

39:17

, I shall tell them I don't believe in them . Yeah

39:19

, yeah

39:22

, I don't know . So I think we

39:24

are very shy as

39:26

Christians about talking about this . I think , partly because

39:29

of the success of

39:31

the Dawkins is of this world . So we

39:34

seem , you know , I've probably said on this

39:36

podcast before I'm super interested

39:38

in how uninterested Christians are

39:40

in Jesus's driving out of

39:42

demons . We don't really ever . You

39:44

know , he , I think it is mentioned

39:47

. I just read somewhere online that

39:49

Jesus , jesus driving out demons , is

39:51

mentioned 55

39:54

times in the New Testament and

39:56

, depending on how you slice it or dice it , there are five

39:59

, seven , 12 exorcisms

40:01

, or driving out of demons or unclean spirits

40:03

. It's the first miracle he does in

40:05

Mark . Yeah , it's all over , mark .

40:08

It's all over the dominant theme there in terms of Jesus

40:10

, its miraculous power . And again , what is

40:12

slightly disconcerting about that is the

40:15

gospels do make a distinction between those

40:17

, for example , who are suffering with epilepsy , some

40:19

sort of mental disturbance , and

40:21

demonic possession . It's not as if this

40:23

is some primitive view of the world in

40:25

which every kind of mental disturbance is viewed

40:28

as demonic oppression . That is not the way

40:30

the gospels describe it .

40:33

Looking for a refreshing summer cocktail

40:35

, why not try

40:37

a Cooper and Cary ? Only

40:40

mix one ounce of middle-aged regret

40:42

, a squeeze of barely contained

40:45

cynicism and a shot of

40:47

predestination . But please

40:49

enjoy responsibly .

40:53

This guy who does the uncanny podcast . I met

40:55

up with him for a cup of tea quite a few

40:57

years ago because he was doing something similar for

40:59

Channel 4 radio back in the days when

41:02

Channel 4 had a radio station which lasted about

41:04

. I don't remember . It

41:06

lasted about three weeks or something . It was just a tiny

41:08

little experiment they did . He knows I'm

41:10

a believer and he asked me what do you think

41:12

when people see ghosts or whatever , what do you think they're

41:14

seeing ? And I said I've

41:17

absolutely no idea and I've never

41:19

, ever , heard a sermon on it in

41:21

my entire life . Yeah

41:24

, or demons , or anything like

41:26

that . And so I must have heard

41:28

many sermons on Jesus driving out demons

41:30

. The demons are never mentioned , really

41:32

, and we seem very

41:34

, very coy about it . And the

41:36

other thing I often say is , if

41:39

you study , jesus drives

41:42

the demons out of Legion and

41:44

they go into the pigs and the pigs go

41:46

into the rush off the cliff and into the water

41:49

. I'm left there thinking , okay

41:51

, where

41:53

are the demons now ? And

41:56

if you're part of a Bible study , then it's like , okay

41:58

, so we're onto the no , no , no , no , no , no , hang on , hang on . There's

42:00

an absolute ton of demons in that guy

42:02

. They went into pigs for

42:05

some reason and then they went off

42:07

a cliff and went and they drowned . The pigs

42:09

have drowned . I don't think demons drown

42:11

. Well , you know . Well

42:14

, I don't think we should be too morbidly

42:16

interested in evil spirits

42:18

. So I think we'll go on to the next bit . And

42:23

it's just me , you know , clearly

42:25

. But I don't think it is just me , no , but

42:27

our coyness about these things as evangelical

42:30

Christians who believe in Jesus , who literally

42:33

terrified demons .

42:35

It's a bad case of being wise in our own eyes

42:37

, isn't it ? We've imbibed the cultural suspicion

42:40

of these things , and so we've played

42:42

it down . But you know , if one of the

42:44

moments post resurrection is Jesus

42:46

saying you know well , you

42:48

can't touch a ghost

42:50

, you can touch me . Wait , what did you say

42:52

? A ghost ? So you're talking

42:54

about ghosts as if there are actually a thing

42:56

. Yeah , okay , we ought to talk

42:58

about that . And

43:01

again , I think it's where we've . You

43:03

can fall off the horse on the side . One is this kind of deep

43:05

, deep , essentially trying to write

43:07

them out of scripture , which I think is what a lot of conservatives

43:10

and genocles do . On the other hand , I think it is true

43:12

to say that there are strains

43:14

of Christianity where it's almost like

43:16

hang on , are you actually excited

43:18

? More excited about demons

43:20

and evil spirits than you are about Jesus ? That

43:22

seems odd . So , yes , it's definitely a

43:24

try and stay on the biblical saddle

43:26

. On this one , if you can , just

43:31

to circle back , I guess we ought to try and sort of land

43:34

the plane , or at least crash . Land the plane . Circling

43:38

back to the beginning , I think a lot

43:40

of non-religious folks

43:42

would say well , what

43:45

you're talking about when you talk about

43:47

this kind of rise in the interest of spiritual

43:49

things , is essentially wishful

43:51

thinking in the face of death . You know that

43:54

people are moving towards those things

43:56

as a kind of consolation , and

43:59

that's all it is . One

44:02

example of that would be I was listening to a

44:04

Richard Herring's podcast

44:06

and there was an episode with David

44:09

Bedeal and his new book is called the

44:11

God Desire , which is

44:13

about wanting God to exist but

44:15

knowing that it's nothing

44:17

more than wishful thinking in the face of death . That's

44:19

basically his hypothesis for why there are religious

44:22

people in the world . You know , do you

44:24

think there's ? What do we say to that when we

44:26

have friends who are maybe

44:28

not believers who say well , it's

44:30

just wishful thinking , isn't it ? That's why people

44:32

go for this kind of quasi-spiritual stuff

44:35

. They just want to believe there's such a thing

44:37

as a soul . They want to believe that

44:39

something persists beyond

44:41

death . But you know , there's no

44:43

evidence , is there ? There's no evidence whatsoever

44:45

. Like what do we say to that as believers ?

44:47

Yeah , it's a good one , isn't it ? I mean to say that there is

44:49

no evidence is just is mad

44:52

. And actually , just going back , the

44:54

thing is only about David Bedeal . I've heard Douglas

44:57

Murray say something similar . He says , like I'm

44:59

all for religious belief , I

45:01

can't believe . So

45:04

what they've got right is their

45:06

own spiritual blindness . In

45:08

a way , I kind of I appreciate the fact

45:10

that they own that . It is very disconcerting

45:13

if you're a Christian , because in a way they've

45:16

given so much ground that we now don't know

45:18

what to do next , because it's like

45:21

they almost agree

45:23

with us . They just don't actually agree on the substance

45:25

. They agree on the concept and

45:28

sometimes we feel one

45:30

of the things that we say is you

45:33

know , show them something that

45:35

they wish was true and then tell them that it is

45:37

true . They

45:39

can see how brilliant it would be if it were true

45:41

, but they just don't think it is true . So

45:44

that is very hard and in a way that's

45:46

proof of spiritual blindness . And

45:50

we need to remember the fact that anyone

45:53

who believes , as you said slightly

45:55

sanctimoniously for comic effect earlier , is

45:57

a miracle . Spiritual sight

46:00

is miraculous and can only be granted

46:02

by Jesus , and

46:04

even then the lights don't go on as quickly

46:06

as possible . And going back to Mark's Gospel , we see

46:08

that double healing

46:10

of a man who's blind , who doesn't quite

46:12

see clearly at first , and then he

46:15

is healed again fully . So

46:19

we should just be aware that this is all

46:21

in Jesus' hands and therefore our

46:23

proofs and arm waving and anecdotes

46:26

and pleas aren't

46:29

effective without

46:31

Christ .

46:32

Yeah . And when these

46:34

folks say , like David Beteal , well , just

46:36

show me the evidence that there's life after death

46:39

. And we say the

46:41

resurrection of Jesus Christ , that's pretty much

46:43

central to Christian belief . And

46:45

they say , well , yeah , apart from that , again

46:49

it's evidence of blindness , isn't it

46:51

? Because that's literally what

46:53

would be the best possible evidence that

46:56

there is life beyond death . Well

46:58

, somebody actually coming back and

47:01

publicly dying and then publicly being

47:03

resurrected would be quite a good proof , but

47:06

that is not enough for

47:08

people . Like it says in the

47:11

rich man and Lazarus , even if someone

47:13

were to return from the dead , still

47:15

they wouldn't believe . Yeah , again

47:17

, it's pointing to what you're saying , isn't it ? We need

47:19

a miracle , we need the Holy Spirit to enable

47:22

somebody to see oh yeah , the resurrection

47:24

is really , is knocked down proof of what

47:26

you're talking about .

47:27

Yeah , and I think you can say to someone if

47:30

I showed you a refutable evidence , would you

47:32

then believe , be honest with yourself

47:34

? And I know you're not going to tell me the honest answer . Yeah

47:36

, that's what I'm saying . But if I gave

47:39

you a , refutable proof , you would refute it , and

47:41

that's the thing that restructured me . Going back

47:43

to this uncanny show , which

47:45

is also going to be on TV there's a live tour

47:47

as well going around , but they always

47:49

have a skeptic commenting

47:51

and then they always have a believer

47:55

of some sort , and it's very occasionally

47:57

it's a vicar in the Church of England , but normally

47:59

it's a very spiritual person

48:01

who believes in you know , that these buildings

48:04

can have resonances from past

48:06

people and all that kind of stuff , which I would

48:08

utterly reject as well . I think that would be . I

48:11

don't agree with them . But what's so interesting

48:13

is when this person tells really

48:15

vivid , clear stories of well

48:17

, this happened , then this happened , then this happened . The

48:20

skeptic says no , no , it can

48:22

feel like these things are

48:24

happening and of course , what might have happened

48:26

is X , y and Z , and you're like

48:28

the story literally precludes

48:31

from what you're saying is true , it's not true . Well

48:34

, maybe this happened . No , do you remember

48:36

? They said that this was the case and then this was

48:38

the case and over the years , people said

48:40

no , no , no , no , no , no , no

48:42

. This day , on this day and on this day

48:45

these things happened .

48:45

It's never going to be good enough , is it ? The evidence is never going to

48:47

be good enough .

48:49

And you want to say to them you

48:51

do realize that if a crime was committed

48:53

and this evidence was given , you'd probably get a conviction

48:55

, the level of testimony

48:58

that you would get . How much more testimony

49:00

would you need ? Well , I need a photograph . Yeah

49:02

, but photographs can be doctored , and if I showed you a photograph

49:04

, you wouldn't believe it . Yes , quite Well , that's very

49:06

grainy , it's not very impressive . Yeah

49:09

, oh , look at that . Well , that's a really

49:11

convenient shot . That's a really good shot

49:13

, isn't it ? Yes , so I don't

49:15

think we're having an honest conversation , so

49:17

we need to be honest about that .

49:19

There's a certain sort of disingenuousness , but I don't

49:21

think again saying to somebody you need to be honest

49:23

about that . I'm not even sure that works , because I don't think they

49:26

realize they're being dishonest in that sense .

49:28

Well , maybe that's true . Do you know what I ?

49:29

mean , like I think when I was listening

49:31

to David Bedeal I was thinking all right , you're

49:33

saying you wish God existed

49:36

. You really want to believe that God exists . But

49:38

do you ? I mean , do you really want to believe

49:40

you know the quote , the Old

49:42

Testament God ? As a Jewish

49:44

man , you want that God to exist

49:47

really . You want the God that hates sin

49:49

and punishes sin . You want him to exist

49:51

? I think the answer is no

49:53

. I would like a very

49:55

particular sort of David Bedeal God to

49:57

exist , one who was sort of totally okay

49:59

with everything I do and everything I

50:01

think . So again , it just feels quite

50:04

disingenuous that to me

50:06

.

50:06

Yeah , no , I mean , I've always been very impressed with David Bedeal

50:09

because he is always really honest , and I

50:11

listened to the Comedians Comedian podcast

50:13

where he was interviewed , and a lot of his comedy does

50:15

just come from him being unable to

50:17

lie and just having to say

50:20

the thing that seems so obviously true . So

50:22

I do think you're right , I do think he thinks he's

50:24

being completely honest about it , but obviously

50:27

we would say , well , how much evidence

50:30

would you need ? But yeah , but also

50:32

, if you'd met God

50:34

, if God appeared to you as a man and

50:37

miraculously did something in front of you , you

50:39

would think that would be enough , wouldn't you ? But the

50:41

people who witnessed Jesus do miracles , crucified

50:43

him . So is

50:46

that that isn't enough , is it so

50:50

? But I don't know where that gets you next .

50:53

Well , on your knees , I think , is where it gets you , isn't it ? Which

50:56

is great ? It's a good place to be .

50:58

Well , we're agreed on that ending at least . This

51:01

has been a curious episode . We're going to have a chat

51:03

for longer over on the Patreon and the Cooper and

51:05

Carrie pluses , because we threw this one

51:07

out on our Discord , which you get to join

51:09

if you join us on Patreon , and we'd

51:11

love you to be part of that

51:13

conversation . We often tee

51:15

up our conversations and then people chuck

51:17

in some thoughts , so we'll go

51:19

over there and say a bit of an

51:21

old hi , and

51:23

if you want to join that , go to the link in the show notes

51:26

or if you Google Cooper and Carrie Patreon

51:28

, I don't think there are many other people masquerading

51:30

as us on the

51:32

internet , so you're probably in fairly safe hands

51:34

with the algorithm on that one . And

51:38

cool , we've already done . We've already got a few other episodes

51:40

in the can . We're excited to be sharing those with

51:43

you in due course . And

51:45

if there's anything that you think we should be talking about and

51:47

you're not a patron , then email

51:49

us . Cooper and Carrie at gmailcom

51:52

.

51:53

Cooper and Carrie at gmailcom

51:55

Is that everything , barry , I think , so Lovely

51:58

to chat , as ever , james , and thank you for listening

52:00

. God willing , we'll be back in two weeks time . Cheerio

52:03

Bye

52:12

.