1:46

Welcome everybody to Cooper and Cary Have

1:48

Words . I'm Barry Cooper , I'm here in Florida

1:50

and 4,000 miles away

1:52

from me in Yeovil , Somerset

1:55

, is my good friend , James Cary

1:57

. James , how's it looking over there ?

2:00

It's alright . It's

2:02

been an odd summer and it

2:04

was very hot earlier in the summer . But my

2:06

wife said that wasn't the summer , that was technically

2:08

spring and she feels rather short

2:10

changed by the summer here . But anyway , two Brits talking

2:13

about the weather is not why people have

2:15

tuned in . They want deep theological

2:17

reflection on the matters of the church

2:19

today , plus jingles .

2:22

Yeah , well , we can certainly deliver some of the jingles

2:24

. The other stuff I'm not so sure about . But we wanted

2:26

to talk today on this episode

2:28

about disagreements in the church and

2:31

what , if any , is a legitimate

2:33

disagreement to have , what is not

2:35

maybe a legitimate disagreement

2:37

to have . And then how

2:40

should we respond to those ? Should we stay ? Should

2:42

we leave ? How do we draw the line ? And

2:44

this was all prompted to James , because recently

2:47

I was preaching on Philippians , chapter

2:49

4 , which , as folks might

2:51

know , is focuses on Euodia and Syntyche

2:53

, the first few verses . They were a couple of

2:55

women who presumably had some

2:57

sort of prominent role in the

3:00

Philippian church . Maybe they were even a couple of founder

3:02

members . There Paul talks about being serving

3:05

the Gospel , standing side by

3:07

side with them in the Gospel and Gospel work

3:09

. So they were clearly valued . But

3:11

they had disagreed about

3:13

something . We do not know what that

3:16

disagreement is . It seems

3:18

as if it was likely not a sin

3:21

issue , because usually Paul

3:23

comes down like a tonne of bricks

3:25

on sin issues he doesn't hear

3:27

. So possibly it was just something to

3:29

do with reference . I quite like the fact actually

3:31

, james , that we don't really know exactly

3:34

what the disagreement was about , because I think if we did

3:36

know what it was about , there's a good chance

3:38

that we would read it now and go oh , they had an argument

3:40

over that . I would never do that .

3:42

Or worse , just go team Sinterki

3:45

, right ? I mean , who's going with this

3:47

other Lady , eudia ? I mean , it's

3:49

like it's a cut and dried issue . I don't know why Paul

3:51

is mucking around being even handed

3:53

with these . That's how divisive

3:56

the human heart really is , right .

3:58

Yeah , it is , and clearly , Paul

4:00

thinks this is a really

4:02

problematic . Problematic thing

4:05

, because what tends

4:07

to happen , even if it is just an issue of preferences

4:09

, is that people do take sides , factions develop

4:11

and then , before you know it , you've got a

4:13

first century church split on your

4:15

hands . Just FYI , I looked

4:17

on Twitter to see what some of the reasons were why

4:19

people had had divisions and

4:21

factions in their church , and some of

4:23

them were clearly ridiculous , for

4:26

example , arguments over the appropriate length of the

4:28

pastor's beard . There

4:30

was another one , though , which is obviously quite serious . I

4:32

don't know what line you'd take on this . Apparently , there was

4:35

an argument on whether the church should allow deviled

4:37

eggs at the church meal or

4:39

not . For me

4:42

, I would say I think that's fine , as long as you also

4:44

serve angel cake . Very

4:47

good , you see

4:49

, that's where people come , isn't it really for that level of

4:51

humorous interludes . So what

4:53

about this then , james ? Have you

4:55

ever been in a congregation

4:57

where anything like this has happened , where

4:59

personal preferences have

5:02

threatened to put a fissure in the

5:04

middle of the Lord's body ?

5:06

Well , I would say congregation , no

5:08

Denomination , aka

5:11

the Church of England . Yes

5:14

, and it's

5:16

all kicking off and I have a

5:18

front row seat for

5:20

the massive disagreement that's going

5:22

on within the Church of England over

5:26

the blessing of people in

5:28

same-sex relationships . Of course , don't forget

5:30

that the prayers of blessing that

5:32

are being proposed aren't blessing the relationships

5:35

. They're blessing the people in the relationships we

5:38

have to play that distinction as we ask . In

5:40

order to keep the peace . I

5:43

mean , we can talk about that in more specifics if

5:45

you want . It's interesting that Southern

5:47

Baptists are also having a

5:49

bit of a existential crisis

5:52

on what's keeping them together

5:54

, and that's not

5:56

the same terms of unity of denomination , because

5:58

that's more like an affiliation thing . But

6:01

just one thing before we move off , philippians

6:03

4 is . It is interesting how

6:05

the climax of Philippians

6:08

is a beginning of

6:10

Philippians 4 . Therefore

6:12

, my brothers and sisters , you , whom I love and long

6:14

for my joy and crown , stand firm in the

6:17

Lord and in this way , dear

6:19

friends , I plead with you

6:21

, dear , and I plead with Sintakey

6:23

to be of the same mind in the Lord . This

6:25

is part of the joy and

6:27

the crown is that unity , isn't

6:30

it , and I think that's something that we

6:32

don't really cherish very much and that

6:34

, therefore , schism and walking

6:36

away is a really , really

6:38

serious business . That I don't

6:41

think as Protestants

6:43

I mean the clues in the word Protestant protest

6:46

I'm taking my toys off

6:48

the field and going over here now I

6:51

don't think we fully understand the

6:53

importance of unity

6:56

. Now , not unity at all costs , but unity

6:58

. Is that fair ?

7:00

I think it is because Jesus says specifically

7:02

, doesn't it ? By this , all men will know

7:04

that you are mine , that

7:06

you love one another , and therefore

7:08

, if you don't love one another in the church

7:10

, well , that's like a massive red

7:12

flag to the culture in terms of this

7:15

gospel that we're proclaiming , because , after all , it's a gospel

7:17

of reconciliation . That's the way it's described

7:19

in Scripture . So

7:21

if we say to people , yeah , the gospel

7:23

is great , we're

7:26

reconciled God and man , there's no , there's therefore no more

7:29

condemnation . We're at peace with God , but

7:31

we're transparently not at peace with each other

7:33

. Well , the world's not

7:36

stupid , maybe clever , but it may be stupid , but it's not

7:38

clever . It's going to look at that

7:40

and go well , this gospel that you're talking about clearly

7:43

doesn't work in the way that you're advertising

7:45

.

7:45

Therefore , there is no condemnation for those

7:47

who are in Christ Jesus , except those guys

7:50

. They're the worst .

7:52

No condemnation for those who agree with me

7:55

or my preferences . What ?

7:56

do you read my lord Words

8:03

?

8:03

Words , words . Now

8:09

, at the same time , obviously , I

8:11

think we will talk more about the importance of unity

8:13

and how crucial that is and why Paul stresses

8:15

it At the same time . Paul

8:18

certainly didn't

8:20

think twice . I don't think he particularly enjoyed

8:22

conflict , but he didn't think twice

8:24

about calling people out when they needed

8:27

to be called out . Even the apostle

8:29

Peter , of course you know , famous in

8:31

Galatians 2 , publicly rebukes Peter

8:33

. So this isn't when he says agree

8:35

in the Lord . He can't

8:37

be meaning by that yeah

8:39

, just get along Whatever happens

8:42

, just agree with each other . A bit like what

8:44

you were saying about the situation in the C of E , where

8:46

it's just like let's try and avoid conflict

8:49

at all costs . That's clearly not what

8:51

Paul's saying . So it'd be good to maybe

8:53

get into that a little bit and talk about well

8:55

, what does he actually mean by saying agree

8:57

in the Lord ? You know , does that

9:00

mean we sort of have to find some sort of middle

9:02

ground ? Does that mean one of

9:04

us has to back down ? What's

9:06

going on ? And where I landed

9:09

with that ? And I think you see

9:11

that in the stressing of immediately

9:13

before the passage he talks about reminding

9:15

them your citizenship is in heaven , and

9:18

at the end of Eudian Syntiqui , that

9:20

little bit he says remember , your names

9:22

are written in the book of life . So

9:24

there's that sort of book ending where he's trying

9:26

to lift their eyes above their present

9:28

disagreement and say look , you're both

9:31

on the same team , you both want the same things

9:33

. Therefore , agreeing in the Lord

9:35

is something to do with

9:37

recognizing how amazing

9:40

it is that the riches that you

9:42

have in Christ mean that you don't

9:44

have to need certain

9:46

preferential things from other people you

9:49

already have . You already have Christ

9:51

, you already have incredible

9:54

wealth there . And once you realize

9:56

that , it tends to take the heat out

9:59

of those arguments about

10:01

getting your way over preferences

10:04

, I think that's sort of , if

10:06

my reading is right , that's where it goes .

10:08

I think that's right . There's something here about wisdom

10:11

. But before we get there , I

10:14

think what you were saying there made me think about

10:16

the rampant individualism

10:18

which has crept

10:20

in over the last 500

10:23

years . I don't want to throw this at 20th

10:26

century America and social media

10:28

. Yeah , I really do think

10:30

that people are much more concerned

10:32

for their own consciences and

10:34

their own spiritual purity and their

10:36

own preferences , and

10:38

neglecting the fact that this isn't about you

10:40

, it never was about you . Even

10:43

though you are infinitely loved and

10:45

infinitely valuable , it's still not

10:47

about you . It's

10:49

both about the church and it's

10:51

about the triune God .

10:53

Yes , the church has the body of Christ . Yeah

10:56

, exactly , I think that's right , although , again

10:59

, I think you mentioned two things in

11:01

the same sentence there , which is your spiritual purity

11:03

and your personal preferences . I

11:06

would argue that you would maybe relate to those

11:08

two things in a slightly different way

11:10

, because if we are talking

11:12

issues of , say , sexual

11:15

purity , for example , I would argue

11:17

that is what we might call

11:19

a kind of a first order issue which

11:21

is worth confrontation

11:24

over . I don't think we should say about that , let's

11:26

just all get along , let's agree to disagree or whatever

11:28

. I think that is one area where Paul

11:30

, particularly case in point , is very

11:32

clear Well , there's actually a moral wound in here

11:34

at the kingdom and therefore , if

11:36

that is a view that's come into your

11:38

church , by whatever means , you

11:41

need to fight . You do need to fight

11:43

over that . You can't just be saying , oh , it's no biggie

11:45

, because actually people's eternal

11:47

destination is at stake

11:50

there .

11:50

Yeah , and therefore I think

11:52

what we need , unfortunately

11:55

, is wisdom , discernment

11:58

, wisdom . What kind of disagreement

12:01

is this ? Is this a doctrinal issue

12:03

, which means that we need to change

12:05

our doctrinal basis because we now

12:08

have discovered that our theological conviction

12:10

is an error ? Or

12:14

is this a matter of practice

12:16

and worship that

12:18

some people think is helpful and others think

12:20

is unhelpful ? And

12:23

so there's that level of distinction

12:25

. And , whilst we're about it , there's

12:29

then that distinction about what we mean by

12:31

unity , so what you need to be

12:33

united over as a congregation

12:36

, even within a denomination

12:38

. So , although we are a Church of England

12:40

congregation , my

12:42

congregation holds to a

12:45

complementarian view , which

12:47

I know people in America think

12:49

. Complementarism is just a milk toast

12:52

easy way to egalitarianism

12:54

. You should be patriarchal , not complementarian

12:56

. Okay , blah , blah , blah . Fine , that's

12:58

one for another podcast , but

13:03

we are quite hopefully clear that

13:05

it is for

13:07

men to lead and to preach . So

13:10

we don't have women preaching . We don't

13:12

have female ordained senior clergy

13:14

. Whether we'd have a female

13:16

deacon or not , I don't know , but

13:19

again , what we would have , and within

13:21

the Church of England there is provision for that for

13:23

those who have an egalitarian view and those

13:26

who have a complementarian view

13:28

, but in terms of those who believe

13:30

in penal substitutionary atonement and

13:32

those who don't . Well , no

13:34

, that's pretty much baked in to

13:36

everything we do and say as a Church and

13:38

has been since we were founded in the 16th

13:41

century . So if you don't believe

13:43

that , then we've got a serious problem

13:45

. Therefore , if you . But then again

13:47

, so there's that doctrinal thing

13:50

, but there

13:52

are ways in which we tend to order ourselves

13:54

as a congregation and there

13:56

are ways that other churches do , and we can still be

13:58

united as Anglicans . But

14:01

we wouldn't necessarily go

14:03

to each other's church services . We

14:06

could be have , you know , often we have greater unity

14:08

as conservative evangelicals

14:11

with Baptists and with members

14:13

of the FIEC and nonconformist

14:15

denominations . But we

14:18

would have a problem where , you know , we wouldn't just sort

14:20

of swap elders necessarily , or we wouldn't

14:22

. Again , within Baptism . Obviously

14:24

the Church of England has a Peter

14:27

Baptist view and so we

14:29

would have to respectfully negotiate

14:31

that . But we can still enjoy unity

14:34

despite not having the same church

14:36

polity or governance . But

14:38

it seems that we have very much gone for

14:40

the one size fits all . Either

14:43

we agree on everything in every way

14:45

or we don't , and we're trying to avoid

14:47

that minor disagreement or just

14:49

saying that it doesn't matter where some do

14:51

, some don't , but

14:54

we have a horrible time discerning

14:56

because we lack wisdom . The

15:02

Beepbanks and the Beep-Peeps Great

15:05

, great tall blonde

15:08

geek with glasses Good

15:11

drama . Great , look , good drama . Yeah , fine , he

15:13

died . He

15:16

died in a bizarre gardening accident .

15:19

Yeah , and what occurred to me as you were talking , there

15:21

is presumably , if there was somebody

15:24

in your congregation who was suddenly

15:26

became heaven forbid , a

15:29

convinced creed of Baptists . I

15:31

imagine that maybe some of them would just be oh

15:34

, this is still my church . As

15:36

long as they're happy to have me , I'm

15:38

delighted to be here . But there might be others

15:40

who would say , yeah , do you know what ? I

15:43

think I probably do need to go to a different church

15:45

and I would say , well , that's

15:48

fine . I mean , that's certainly better than causing

15:50

division in your congregation

15:52

where you are . But what's interesting is

15:54

people would take that stand and

15:56

I think that reasonable stand where it comes to baptism

15:59

, but when it comes to sexual stuff

16:01

, people disagree with

16:03

the historic teaching of Anglicanism

16:06

and they go yeah , I'm still going to stay

16:08

and I'm going to really fight for this . I'm going to cause division

16:10

over it rather than just going yeah , do you

16:12

know what ? I do see how this differs

16:14

from 500 years of Anglican

16:16

history .

16:18

I should probably go and nearly 2000

16:20

years of church tradition and church violence

16:22

and everything .

16:23

It's just amazing that people have

16:25

that level of kind of arrogance to

16:27

do that really .

16:28

But anyway , yeah , I think that's completely fair

16:31

, I think that's valid and you're right

16:33

. There are , and again , more

16:35

distinctions here . I am a member of

16:37

a congregation which teaches

16:39

something that right now I don't think I'm fully signed

16:42

up to . Now the Church of England

16:44

doesn't technically have a church membership . And go

16:46

back to our brilliant episode with

16:48

Jonathan Liebman Brilliant because he's brilliant and

16:50

that's incredibly articulate

16:53

. Again , what you require

16:55

of a church member , what you require

16:57

of a deacon or an elder , what you

16:59

require of , in our case , a

17:01

bishop , would and should be

17:03

different . But again , we

17:06

don't want to make those distinctions

17:08

for some reason . I think

17:11

it is because we don't want to hurt anybody's feelings

17:13

. I think that's it .

17:15

I think it's the confrontation problem , and perhaps

17:17

this is a peculiarly British problem in

17:19

lots of ways . Maybe this is why

17:21

Anglicanism has this particular thing

17:23

, but I do think there

17:25

is . I mean , this is one of my points when I was talking

17:27

about you , oda and Sinterke , last Sunday

17:30

, was that are we willing

17:32

to actually step into

17:34

a situation where , when

17:36

we see a brother or

17:38

a sister who are at odds with

17:40

each other , will we actually confront

17:43

them on it In a loving way , of course

17:45

, just as Paul does ? But are

17:47

we willing to do it ? I mean , some of the most

17:49

transformative moments

17:52

in my Christian life for

17:54

the better have been when

17:56

somebody was brave

17:58

enough to call

18:01

me on something and say actually , as

18:05

happened to me many years ago now , I

18:08

don't think you're behaving in a loving way here

18:10

, and we

18:12

need other people to help us see

18:15

who we are . We

18:17

just need somebody to do that sometimes . And

18:19

so it is a question of do we love people enough

18:21

to be able to maybe risk a person

18:23

, our friendship with them , because

18:26

we know it might go south if we raise this issue . But

18:29

do we love the body of Christ , as it were ? We

18:31

love Christ even more than maybe

18:34

we love our own personal relationship in that situation

18:36

and I want

18:38

to be at pains to point out there are obviously

18:40

some people and we all know who they are in

18:43

every congregation who just love confrontation

18:46

, are always spoiling for a fight . Those

18:51

people I said on Sunday I'm not actually talking to

18:53

you right now . If that's

18:55

you , you probably need to butt

18:58

out a little bit . But if

19:00

it's not you , if you're a typical British person

19:03

, maybe this is one area

19:05

where we ought to think that the loving

19:07

thing may be confrontation rather than just keeping

19:09

quiet .

19:11

Yeah , yeah .

19:15

But again , your point wisdom . It takes

19:17

wisdom to work out what you need to speak

19:20

into , because there's also a proverb , isn't there ? It's

19:22

the glory of a king to overlook a fault . So

19:25

how do we decide , all right , what faults need to be overlooked

19:27

and which faults actually really do threaten the unity

19:30

of the body ?

19:31

Yeah , and God in his divine

19:33

forbearance has passed over our former

19:35

sins . God is endlessly

19:39

patient , but

19:42

even

19:44

when his patience ends , it still continues

19:46

in some strange way , because obviously

19:48

it culminates in the cross

19:51

of Christ . But

19:53

, yeah , there's

19:55

wisdom on the part of everyone . That's needed

19:57

, isn't there ? Do I say this word now

20:00

to this person in the situation ? And

20:02

you're right . I mean , I'm sure there are times I can't

20:04

think of any specifically , but I know

20:06

they've happened where someone's just said to me huh

20:08

, you said that , and I don't

20:10

think that's right . In fact , I had somebody the other day , after

20:13

I did my water into wine show , who

20:16

said I had to leave

20:18

, I couldn't , I

20:22

just didn't feel , I felt , I just didn't feel right

20:24

, didn't sit right with me . It

20:26

felt like it because it to them it's . It's

20:28

what I call stand up theology

20:30

. So it's like a stand up show , but

20:33

I'm talking exclusively pretty much about

20:35

the bible and particularly john's gospel and

20:37

the seven signs in john . And you

20:39

know , I said to him , I said what I'm trying to do

20:42

is make people Think aren't

20:44

these miracles wonderful ? Aren't

20:46

they even more wonderful than I'd first realized

20:48

? And isn't christ the most wonderful

20:51

King who comes , who

20:53

will bring aged wine and swallow

20:55

up death forever . According to isai 25

20:58

spoilers , that's where the show lands

21:00

, but I could totally relate to

21:03

the fact that this person

21:05

just thought that the way I was going about it

21:07

was inappropriate and they were from a relatively

21:09

Traditional , old

21:13

fashioned christian background and therefore

21:15

I can totally see that it would seem rather

21:17

sophisticated and not

21:19

in a good way . So I

21:22

kind of welcome the challenge because it just made me think

21:25

, am I okay with this ? Is there anything in this

21:27

? And I said to him at the time . I said

21:29

I'm so grateful you said that because

21:31

I don't get it very often and actually that

21:33

is more of a concern for me

21:35

on time wise , isn't that a

21:37

? That is a concern , I think . I'm sure some

21:39

people aren't fine with it , but I have had one

21:42

or two bits of pushback and

21:44

I think they've been entirely Valid

21:46

. But also I would say to him I

21:48

don't blame you for leaving . I think

21:50

that's probably the right thing and

21:53

there is a live streaming version

21:55

is available and I will put a link to that

21:57

in the show notes . If you want to get hold

21:59

of it in exchange for a

22:01

small amount of money and you can judge

22:03

for yourself . But

22:06

if you just would rather not go down that road

22:08

, I think that's completely fine and I don't

22:10

think that .

22:15

Yes , I think you've touched on a good category there

22:17

to be thinking of , which is the .

22:19

Which is my comedy career . Yeah , I think that's a good

22:21

.

22:21

Yeah , let's discuss that more get into

22:23

that the right , some wrongs of that

22:26

, but I'm thinking more of the

22:29

weaker brother syndrome yeah , so

22:31

example dude comes to your church

22:33

has happened to me sort of five

22:35

, ten years ago now , and we all

22:37

knew that he was recovering alcoholic

22:39

and we were in the habit

22:41

of having our socials at the local pub . Well

22:45

, nobody else had a problem with it . They were like

22:47

, you know , freedom in Christ , course we can have a beer

22:49

, nobody's getting drunk . But

22:52

we decided , okay

22:54

, well , just for the sake of this one guy

22:56

who's just joined the church and clearly wants to

22:58

be joining the socials , let's meet

23:00

somewhere else . And I think

23:02

again , that's that's an issue of wisdom . So

23:04

it would have been wrong in that situation

23:07

, I think , to have insisted on our

23:09

preferences .

23:10

And it also would have been wrong for this

23:12

person to have insisted that you

23:14

changed the venue In

23:16

order that this person could come , because this is very

23:18

much their problem , as

23:21

it were , and they don't need to say

23:23

well , I think you're Either

23:25

ungodly for even drinking

23:27

in a pub , because don't you know where that

23:29

leads . Well , actually , it doesn't necessarily

23:31

lead to where it did lead for this person

23:34

.

23:34

Donica Babshot , the very least it's

23:37

us .

23:38

But then the second place , that

23:40

the second grounds is you should change what you're

23:42

doing because of my tender conscience . How

23:45

very dare you not consider

23:48

my own conscience and

23:50

I think that is at the heart of

23:52

a number of church disputes which is

23:55

you seem okay with this and I'm

23:57

not . I would like to bend the church

23:59

to my own conscience . Yeah

24:01

, involuntarily , rather

24:04

than . This is something that you do with joy

24:06

, and again , it's just , it's always

24:08

a reciprocal thing . It always has to be Christ

24:10

centred and for the and for the glory

24:13

of the church , and not just

24:15

so that someone stops complaining or

24:17

that we've ticked the box that says . Scripture

24:19

says we have to do this and we've done it , we've done

24:22

it . Now , happy , it's like . No , that's

24:24

not a . That's not how

24:26

we do church , is it ?

24:27

yeah , yeah , the system only works if

24:30

you are both saying after

24:32

you know , after you , after you know

24:34

. It only works . If you do that , if one

24:36

of you is insisting on your preferences , then , yeah

24:38

, it's a disaster yeah . How

24:47

much of what we disagree about in church is disputable

24:49

, disputable matters . It was interesting

24:51

. We will talk about this for those of you who

24:54

are patrons . If you want to become a patron

24:57

or you want to become a subscriber to kubernetes

24:59

plus , just hit the subscribe button in

25:01

apple podcast and you can join this discussion to . After

25:05

we do the standard length episode

25:07

, we do an extended , but nothing will talk some more . A little

25:09

bit about Some of the feedback

25:11

we got from our patrons

25:14

on our discord server about

25:16

reasons why people had fallen out

25:18

in their churches . It seemed

25:20

as if I don't know what you thought , james , but

25:22

it looked to me as if most of those were

25:24

issues of . They were disputable matters

25:27

. They were personal preference things rather than

25:29

huge doctrinal , chunky

25:31

disagreements over , I don't know , the

25:33

Trinity or whatever . It just tends to be stuff

25:35

like no , I don't think that the

25:37

piano store should be there , it should be over there

25:39

. You know , it's that kind of stuff really .

25:41

Yeah , it is quite depressing in that sense

25:43

, and I guess that shows a

25:45

real , well , lack of discipleship

25:48

, I guess , isn't it ? I mean , that's what it comes down to

25:50

. It is a lack of Christian

25:53

maturity that sees , that

25:55

sees our own worshiping

25:57

preferences as being more

25:59

significant than they necessarily Are

26:02

. I think is it because you know you could

26:04

make a case that you're going to die on a hill for the regulative

26:07

principle and that we shouldn't

26:09

even have instruments To

26:11

with which to worship , because the New Testament

26:14

does not expressly commend the

26:16

use of instruments . Now , we've we

26:18

have done an episode on that . Go back and

26:20

find it and if it's not freely available

26:22

, again join us on patreon and you can listen

26:24

back to an extended version of our Real

26:26

pearls of wisdom on that . I'm sure . Absolute

26:29

gold theologically speaking . But

26:32

I guess , in one sense , if

26:35

you don't like the use of instruments , you know

26:37

not to go to that church to begin with

26:40

, and you're going to have to seek out some incredibly

26:42

Calvinistic tiny little chapel that's

26:44

probably attended by nine

26:46

people . Yeah , and

26:49

that's fine . It's not for me to

26:51

say that the regulative principle

26:53

is utter nonsense . I think there's , I

26:55

think it is defensible , even though I don't agree

26:57

with it . But but

27:01

if you change your view , whilst being a member

27:03

of a congregation , you want to bear in mind

27:05

that other people don't

27:08

agree with you , but also

27:10

that this may just be a preference issue

27:12

and this may be something over

27:14

which you can actually

27:17

have the joy of bearing

27:19

with others and going without . Now

27:21

, when you , when you love your children

27:24

and you

27:26

go without something so that they could eat

27:28

, you do it with joy . You

27:30

know kids get hungry regularly and

27:32

if you've not brought enough food with you , you're

27:35

just going to give the food to your kids , and

27:37

you would . You wouldn't even think about doing

27:40

anything else , would you , barry ?

27:42

No , I would never steal

27:44

a child's yogurt pouch from them

27:46

. No , I would never do something like that . I would never do something like that

27:48

.

27:48

No , no , no , I'm sure you haven't , but you

27:51

get . The point I'm making is that it

27:53

is actually a joy to give . It's quite a thing , by the way , but yes

27:55

, yeah , I agree with you , it is a joy yogurt

27:58

, depending on giving up

28:00

certain things for the

28:02

sake of those that you love . Now

28:04

, it's not going against your conscience

28:07

not to eat , so I get that . So

28:09

this is very much a preference issue

28:11

. But I guess , on the theological issue

28:13

, if you change your mind on something

28:15

, then again this is something that should be done slowly

28:19

, prayerfully , thoughtfully and in consultation

28:22

with with others . In your

28:24

church there's a . There's a wise old man

28:26

in my church . He's a very experienced

28:28

pastor and Bible teacher and

28:31

I check in with him regularly and

28:33

say I've just read this , I've just thought about

28:35

this , how is that

28:37

anything , is that something ? And he's normally very

28:39

like oh yeah , no , that's a , that's

28:41

a . That's a really interesting area to go

28:43

down and there might be one or two things . We'll just say , hmm

28:46

, I've always thought that's a bit of a dead end theologically

28:48

speaking . I'm not sure that ends well and

28:51

I'm like , oh , ok , well , that's , that's helpful

28:53

to know that and

28:56

so . But whereas I think there's that temptation that

28:58

the moment I change my mind I demand

29:00

the congregation and the entire

29:03

denomination to have a different

29:05

view , yeah , and this is

29:07

where we have a membership vow .

29:09

When people want to become a member , they

29:11

will . They will start . They've been through our discovery

29:13

class for six weeks . They will then stand on the

29:15

platform with me and I will read

29:18

out the membership vows , one of which is

29:20

you vowed to protect

29:22

the peace and the purity of

29:24

this church . Wow , that

29:27

means and this is explained

29:29

in the discovery class I mean , if you suddenly , for

29:31

example , decide that you are Peter Baptist

29:33

, it's totally fine , we're not going to revoke

29:35

your membership . But what it does mean

29:37

is that you can't then go around to other members

29:39

of the congregation proselytizing that view

29:42

or in Bible studies saying , well

29:44

, this is my view and I think this is the correct view , but

29:46

our leadership man , they just don't

29:48

get this baptism stuff Like that's

29:50

not okay . And if you

29:52

were doing that , then you would . You would if

29:54

it really got . You know , when push came to shove , it would

29:56

come to removing you from membership because

29:58

that's part of the vow and I just don't

30:01

think it's doable otherwise . Now , I

30:03

do think there is an asymmetry

30:05

here in terms of what

30:08

we , that the kind of difference of opinion

30:10

that I think is perfectly acceptable

30:12

in the congregation and

30:15

a and the kind of doctrinal

30:18

difference , that same doctrinal

30:20

difference in the ministry team

30:22

who are leading a church , is

30:26

catastrophic , I think . Because , again

30:28

, I mean , imagine if one week I'm teaching creed

30:30

of baptism and the next week Larry's teaching Peter

30:32

baptism . Well , that's just a disaster for everybody

30:35

and you're going to have factions . So I

30:37

think it's important to keep those two things in

30:39

mind . There's a kind of you

30:41

can take doctrinal issue with your brother and sister

30:43

in Christ some of them anyway and still

30:45

remain a member in good standing . But if

30:47

you're on the ministry team , then I think yeah

30:50

, then it gets tricky , doesn't it ?

30:52

Or even a member of the House of Bishops of

30:55

the Church of England , where there are now

30:57

two different views , and I

30:59

think the the great disaster

31:02

is the fact that I think there is

31:04

a desire to do that , not only to do

31:06

the wrong thing , but to do the wrong

31:09

thing in the wrong way . And

31:11

so what ? Those of us who hold

31:13

the Orthodox historic view although now

31:15

the word Orthodox is being challenged Orthodox

31:18

and historic , both of those are being challenged we're

31:21

not allowed to claim that our view is the biblical one , because

31:24

there are there is some disagreement

31:26

on that . I don't think it's a particularly credible disagreement

31:29

, and you and no strong

31:31

theological case has been made for why

31:33

the Church of England has gotten this wrong for literally centuries

31:35

and all of the early church fathers were wrong and all that kind

31:37

of stuff . We're

31:39

not allowed to say it's historic because apparently

31:41

in the medieval church the idea of marriage itself was not blah , blah , blah

31:43

, blah . And

31:46

the fact that our view is the Orthodox view and that

31:48

the new viewers are not Orthodox , well , that's just ridiculous

31:51

and you go , you know , talk about the battle

31:53

over the dictionary .

31:56

Well , I think a lot of that is . I've just been watching the Hillsong

31:59

documentary and it's extraordinary how basically

32:01

the critique in Episode 1 amounts to . These

32:03

people at Hillsong have basically taught the

32:08

sexual morality that the church has held

32:10

for 2000 years and I'm shocked and outraged

32:12

that they would do such a thing , and

32:14

it's like it's just total biblical illiteracy , isn't it ?

32:19

Yeah , yeah , yeah . That only says something about

32:21

you . It doesn't really say anything . Say

32:23

what you like about Hillsong and people do

32:25

. That's not yeah

32:28

. That's not the one thing to yeah to get

32:30

them on , should you so be minded . But

32:35

I think what is frustrating is that

32:38

if the Church of England

32:40

needs to change the doctrine

32:42

of holy matrimony , which we are being reassured

32:44

isn't being done , but to anybody

32:46

who is a casual observer witnessing what would be the use of prayers of love

32:48

and faith , which would look an awful lot like a wedding . In fact , some of the

32:50

prayers themselves are adapted from the from

32:52

the marriage service , the author . But

32:57

it's not a wedding , you said

32:59

, james . It's important to make that distinction , isn't

33:01

it ?

33:01

That distinction is important , yeah .

33:06

Yeah , and you will hear bishops

33:08

regularly do that and say we're not changing

33:10

the doctrine of holy matrimony . And you have to read these

33:12

prayers very carefully to

33:14

see what they're actually saying and what they're not saying . Well

33:17

, that may be one thing . What they're saying and not

33:19

saying , what impression they're giving and how they will be

33:21

used is obviously very different

33:23

. But I think I think what

33:25

those of us with a historic Orthodox and biblical

33:27

view are trying to do is

33:29

to say can we please do

33:31

this the right way ? And the

33:33

right way is to refer

33:36

it to the liturgical commission if

33:38

we're going to change our liturgy and

33:40

if we're going to change our theology , and that

33:42

will require a two thirds majority

33:45

within all

33:47

three houses of

33:49

the general synod in order to change

33:51

the cannons and change it , and

33:54

so obviously the progressives would say well

33:56

, this is just a blocking motion , isn't it

33:58

? To which , on one level , you go . Well , yeah

34:00

, because you won't get the votes . I

34:03

know you won't get the votes , but secondly

34:05

, if you're going to do the wrong thing , don't

34:07

do the wrong thing the wrong way . There

34:10

is a process to changing

34:12

our view theologically

34:14

on something . Now the Church of England hasn't really

34:16

done it . We still essentially , theoretically

34:19

, believe what we believed in the 1560s

34:22

and the 1660s

34:25

, and for some people that's a problem and I

34:27

understand the reasons for that

34:29

. But there is a process

34:32

for doing this properly . Can we please

34:34

go through that process rather than ? Here

34:36

are some optional prayers that

34:38

can be used and will smash

34:41

the unity of a local parish

34:43

church , because the

34:46

Vicar will use them and

34:48

half the PCC say they shouldn't , or

34:50

the Vicar will refuse to use them and

34:52

half the PCC say they should , and they're shocked

34:54

at the homophobia of

34:56

their , you know , of their incumbent

34:59

and so forth . So all the

35:01

House of Bishops are doing and if I'd been called in the

35:03

debate to speak I would have said this

35:05

all the House of Bishops are doing is

35:07

pushing division down to

35:10

the congregations so you can

35:12

fight it out and literally rip pieces

35:14

out of each other . And a local activist

35:16

group will call the

35:19

press and say we tried to have

35:21

our gay wedding in the church and they said no , even

35:23

though apparently we're allowed , which in

35:25

itself is not even true . So

35:27

that's not what the current thing is . So

35:29

anyway , that's just a brief Church

35:32

of England daybarkle sidebar

35:34

to this . But what it demonstrates

35:36

is if there is theological

35:39

disagreement

35:41

. That's where it leads

35:43

. And I guess the last comment on this is they sometimes

35:45

, you know , say that the Church of England

35:47

is a broad church , and

35:50

in one sense they're right . In

35:52

another sense it's not

35:55

right . We are a reformed Catholic denomination

35:58

and the 39 articles and what

36:00

is said and not said in our

36:02

creeds and formularies and ordinances is

36:04

pretty clear . So , and

36:07

what I mean by that is to say , where

36:09

should the Vicar stand at the

36:11

Eucharist ? Either

36:14

behind the table , in which case

36:16

it looks like he's representing God

36:18

. Should he stand in front of the congregation

36:20

, in front of the table , thereby representing

36:22

the congregation

36:25

, or to the

36:27

side of the table , where

36:29

he is neither one nor the other , but in some senses

36:32

he's representing himself as an intermediary . Well

36:35

, there are theological problems with all three of those

36:37

and there are theological

36:39

justifications for all three of them , and

36:41

I think what the Church of England does well is it says well

36:44

, actually there's a case for all of them , given our

36:46

view , our distinctive view about what the Eucharist

36:48

is and is not . But the idea

36:50

that we can just pick and choose what we actually

36:52

believe and teach really

36:55

isn't up for

36:57

grabs , I don't think . And so I think the

36:59

breadth of the Church of England is

37:02

being used as a way to

37:04

say well , here are some prayers you may or may not

37:06

want to use . There are other prayers other

37:08

people may or may not use , and that's all

37:10

fine too . It's all part of the same thing . No

37:13

, it isn't . Yeah , it really isn't . Cooper

37:23

and Cary killed the radio

37:25

star . Sorry about

37:27

that Entirely unintentional Apologies

37:30

.

37:30

I sometimes feel like we're more prepared

37:32

to break fellowship over preferences than

37:34

we are over doctrine , because when we're

37:36

reading these stories from Fox's Book of Martyrs , we're

37:39

like what are you doing ? What

37:41

, really ? That's the hill you're

37:43

going to die on , literally . Yeah , you

37:46

know , we don't understand , like

37:48

we haven't really no concept for a doctrine

37:50

that goes so deep and

37:53

is so important to us that

37:55

we would ever die for it , whereas

37:58

you know color of the carpet

38:00

in the vestibule . Now you're talking

38:02

. It's odd , that isn't it ? We've

38:04

really flipped everything . What's

38:07

that about ? Is that again just biblical illiteracy

38:09

? That we don't see where these sorts of doctrines

38:11

lead , that we don't really

38:13

believe in heaven and hell ? I mean , what's going on

38:15

? I don't know .

38:16

Well , I guess part of it is the distorting effect

38:19

of history and the stuff that gets written down is the

38:21

outlier rather than

38:23

the regular , I suppose . But you're right .

38:24

I think so . It seems extremely maybe yeah .

38:26

But as you were speaking there about the wrong carpet

38:29

in the vestibule or whatever , it did

38:31

make me think not

38:33

only will you

38:35

not fight for doctrine

38:37

, but if you're prepared to gossip

38:40

and so division over

38:42

the wrong colored carpet , that's

38:44

even more breathtaking is it will be better if

38:46

you left over the color of the carpet , then

38:49

for you to stay and cause

38:51

division over it . It

38:53

would be better for you to have a millstone put

38:55

around your neck and be . But

38:57

it's true , isn't it ? It's like what I disagree now

39:00

. So I get to now gossip and slander

39:02

and impugn motives because

39:05

I'm pretty sure I'm right on this and

39:07

actually the the toxicity of that

39:09

disagreement again , because it's

39:11

not got the body of Christ

39:13

at the heart of it . Are you really going

39:15

to justify Poor

39:18

behavior and sin because

39:21

of your perception

39:23

of how the church fabric

39:25

should be ?

39:26

Yeah , and it's back to your point about the incredible

39:29

individualism of people as they come into

39:31

churches . They just don't have a category for

39:33

kind of communal Living

39:37

, communal unity . It

39:39

is so individualistic and

39:41

like you have to think , I don't know . I mean you

39:44

have to think that's got worse , hasn't it over

39:46

the years ? I don't mean that's a , it's

39:48

a cliche , but I think that is true and I guess

39:50

things like social media and the after democratization

39:53

of things on the internet is only made that more of

39:55

an issue . It seems to me .

39:57

I think it has gotten really bad . But equally

39:59

, we're seeing a counter revolution

40:01

, counter reformation with the folks , and

40:03

I'd be interested to know Some

40:06

numbers . I suspect they are really

40:08

very , very small but those

40:10

who are embracing A

40:13

much more inconvenient form of worship

40:15

in terms of Eastern Orthodoxy

40:18

and those things that place extremely

40:20

high demands On on

40:22

your discipleship and in order to

40:24

join the church you have to attend classes

40:27

for a year , two years , you have to do

40:29

this , you have to go through that , all those sorts of things . Whereas

40:32

you know we do , we do

40:34

slip up into easy believers and quite

40:37

quickly , if you can say

40:39

these words believe in your heart then

40:42

, then you're in . We are

40:44

hearing stories of people

40:46

discovering inconvenient

40:48

worship , which

40:50

I think is interesting , but I'm not sure it's

40:52

the cultural phenomenon that's possibly being it's

40:54

been touted as . Do you think ?

40:58

Yeah , it . Well , it does seem to me anecdotally

41:00

that there is , especially post covid , there's

41:02

a real hunger for personal Community

41:07

interaction , physical presence . I do think

41:09

that is happening and I think you

41:11

know an increasing dissatisfaction with things

41:13

like live streaming as some

41:15

sort of satisfactory substitute for

41:17

actually being at church , particularly

41:20

interestingly among younger folks . I think I'm

41:22

that is totally anecdotal on my part , but it just feels

41:24

as if there is the

41:27

pendulum is maybe swinging back the other way

41:29

and people are beginning to see . Oh yeah

41:32

, I've really felt mentally ill during the covid period of isolation

41:34

. What's

41:37

the antidote to that ? Well , you already

41:39

have the church . Maybe that the clues

41:41

in there somewhere . So

41:45

I'm hoping that that will lead to something of a nice

41:47

answer of yeah , let's really

41:49

. Let's not simply live for my own personal

41:51

comfort but actually put myself out for the sake of our own and

41:54

also for the sake of me as well . I mean , there is this weird thing

41:56

of thinking well , if I just

41:58

insist on my personal preferences , it will make me happy . And

42:03

of course you know Paul's . Paul's reasoning

42:05

in Philippians for is listen , if

42:08

you can't rejoice that your names are written

42:10

in the book of life , then winning

42:12

an argument with someone over

42:14

preferences that's

42:17

not going to do it either .

42:18

And also your preferences are going

42:20

to change . Your preferences

42:22

are pretty arbitrary . There

42:25

is much to do with what you are brought up with , both

42:27

in terms of what you would like more of or what

42:30

you're reacting against , and

42:33

, and when you're older

42:35

, your preferences will probably change again

42:37

. So the idea

42:39

that your preferences are king and it

42:41

is a form of that kind of hyper

42:44

charismatic feelings , led stuff

42:46

where God must be angry

42:48

with me because I don't feel spiritual

42:50

, which I know . I'm

42:52

not saying that this is a sin of continuationism

42:56

or continuationist feel that at all

42:58

, but there there is that sense of Temporiness

43:02

of our feelings and preferences , whereas

43:04

and again , this is why I've

43:07

become more and more Anglican , the longer I've been a member of the

43:09

general synod , you know you've changed

43:11

man . I've changed is

43:13

the fact that over hundreds of years , someone's

43:16

thought about this quite a lot and

43:18

over multiple generations , people

43:20

have said actually , we found that

43:22

the best way of doing is this way and

43:25

what that gives us is this , this and this . What you

43:27

obviously lose is that , that and that , and that's

43:29

all fine too , but again there's a very much Whenever

43:35

, I think we've said this before

43:37

, there's this , there's this quote . We've never been able to find

43:39

this that Carl Truman quotes from somebody

43:42

else , that all of the heresies of the church

43:44

come about because of mission . He's quoting

43:46

some somebody that I don't quite know what it is

43:48

. Yeah , but as the church of England

43:50

does become much more mission minded , it

43:52

really is a different ball game to what

43:54

it felt like even seven , eight years

43:57

ago , in terms of New worshiping communities

43:59

and all that kind of stuff . There's an awful lot of

44:01

presumptions about

44:03

what unbelievers would , would like

44:05

. They need to understand , they need to

44:07

do this . They don't know what's going on , they when

44:10

actually some would like a sense of transcendence

44:13

, some would like a sense of , yeah

44:17

, worshiping community . That I need to

44:19

learn about otherness , otherness

44:21

yeah , this , this liturgy is

44:23

strange and unfamiliar to me , and I would like to

44:25

get to know it and therefore be able

44:28

to recite it , rather than essentially

44:30

something bigger than me . Yeah

44:33

, yeah there is a really good way of putting it , isn't

44:35

it ? And I know we probably feel slightly

44:37

differently about liturgy , but there

44:39

are those who say that

44:41

it's a bit like dancing you know , you learn to

44:43

do it so that when you can do it you

44:45

don't need to think about it , you

44:47

can . As opposed to , you know

44:49

, bopping away to music

44:52

where you don't really know what you're doing

44:54

and you don't really improve over time .

44:57

We recite the apostles creed every single

44:59

week with the Lord supper , yeah

45:02

and yeah . I couldn't agree

45:04

more , because you are internalizing it and it

45:06

just becomes learning how to dance yeah

45:08

, yeah .

45:16

Where have we gotten to on this , do you think ?

45:19

I think your point about wisdom is a really good one . There

45:22

are , there ought to be , things that

45:24

we are willing to if

45:27

we're pastors and elders , things

45:29

that we ought to be willing to put people out of membership because of . Similarly

45:35

, if we are in the congregation

45:37

, there are certain doctrinal

45:39

beliefs that we may hold , and we hold them so passionately

45:42

that it might be right for us to leave that

45:44

church and go somewhere else . Note

45:46

, not stay in that church and so discontent . So

45:50

I think that's important . Wisdom comes in . Knowing

45:52

the difference between this is just my personal

45:54

preference and actually

45:56

this is a serious doctrinal issue .

46:00

That's the worst there's probably a follow on episode , which

46:02

is how to leave your church , or should I

46:04

leave my church ? I think we get occasional emails about that .

46:07

Yeah , I think we did an episode on that at some

46:09

point . Oh wow , that's going a long way back .

46:13

But I think the thing that people

46:15

might find surprising is how much

46:17

a pastor would

46:19

like to leave on good terms and

46:22

be able to essentially write a letter

46:24

of introduction to another pastor Not

46:27

just introduction but recommendation

46:30

. So if one of your congregation becomes

46:33

a Peter Baptist , you know I've changed

46:35

my conviction to Peter baptism

46:37

. I've got kids coming and

46:39

also maybe I'd like to move house

46:41

anyway or something like that I'd like . So we're going

46:43

to go to another church and it's going to be a presbyterian

46:46

church .

46:47

Man , I love those , I love those conversations

46:49

, I love those . What I , what I really

46:52

dislike is when people just silently

46:54

, just kind of drift away and they don't tell

46:56

you what's going on , or

46:59

worse , they they start . Yeah

47:01

, so it's so in this content because

47:03

of some view they've got .

47:04

Yeah , but it would be helpful if somebody comes to

47:07

your congregation from somewhere else . Yeah

47:09

that their pastor picks up

47:12

the phone or send you an email just to say , oh

47:14

, have you met some Simon and Sally ? Yet they're

47:16

just coming . They were great members of congregation

47:18

, they , they changed their view and they're

47:20

now credo Baptists . And you

47:23

know , obviously we weren't a good home for them for

47:25

that , and but we wish them well , that's the

47:27

way it should work , isn't it ?

47:28

I mean , that's the way it should work and that is unity

47:31

, yeah , isn't it ?

47:32

I mean , that's not actually schism , that

47:36

is unity for which the

47:39

the New Testament gives it

47:43

gives justification . So you , dear

47:45

, and syndicate , need to be of the

47:47

same mind of the Lord . They don't need to agree with

47:49

each other , but they do need

47:51

to be of the same mind of the Lord . And I think that's

47:54

the thing that people find really hard

47:56

to understand is , the religions of the

47:58

world Demand

48:01

total obedience and conformity

48:03

and , especially in today's cancel culture

48:05

, the moment you don't seem

48:07

to believe in the shibboleths

48:09

that we now have in the sacred cows , you

48:12

, you're out , you're gone , you have to leave

48:14

the church isn't like that , nor

48:16

should it be .

48:18

No , and the word of the episode

48:20

is shibboleths .

48:22

Oh , that's shibboleths .

48:27

I think that's probably quite a good place to draw stumps , don't

48:29

you think ? I think it is . We're going to stick

48:31

around , james and I , and have a little chat with our patrons

48:33

. So if you want to join that merry band , follow

48:35

the link in the show notes or hit subscribe in Apple

48:37

Podcasts . Otherwise

48:40

, james , I think that's probably it you can write to us , kubrencarry

48:43

at gmailcom . Otherwise

48:45

, god willing , we hope to

48:47

be back again in two weeks time , so

48:49

cheerio .

48:50

Bye , bye , oh

48:55

yeah , but I'm still very much Church of England

48:57

. It's like , well , I don't think you are really . Yeah , I

49:00

think you've made a church in your own image and then

49:02

not gone to it . I think that's

49:05

the worst thing , isn't it .

49:22

II became a big half world

49:24

.