1:56

Hello and welcome to Cooper and Cary

1:58

Have Words . My name is James

2:00

Cary , I am the Cary part , and

2:02

over there in Florida is my friend Barry Cooper

2:04

. Hello , Barry .

2:06

Hello James Carey Blistering . Hot

2:08

over here , it's about 95 degrees currently , but

2:10

thankfully safe in the broom cupboard where it's a

2:12

bit cooler . We have an excellent guest with us

2:14

today . Who is he and

2:17

what are we talking about ?

2:19

He is the senior pastor of

2:21

a church in central London called Christchurch

2:23

Mayfair . Just for our international listeners

2:26

, mayfair is the super expensive square

2:28

on the Monopoly Board . I don't

2:30

know what it ? Would be in the New York Edition , and

2:33

it's a central London church

2:36

that I used to be a member of , and

2:38

therefore I know this man . His name is Matt

2:40

Fuller , he's the author of a new

2:42

book called Reclaiming Masculinity

2:45

, and we say to him hello , hello

2:47

, matt . Hello , hello to you both

2:49

, thanks very much for being on the podcast

2:51

. We're going to dive straight in because we don't

2:53

waggle on the tee here on Cooper and

2:56

Carey . You've written a book called Reclaiming

2:58

Masculinity . Why

3:00

write this book when for

3:02

many it's probably a really unappetising

3:05

prospect to defend

3:07

or define any kind of masculinity

3:10

? So how did this book come about

3:12

and from whom does masculinity need

3:14

reclaiming ?

3:16

Oh , yes , the old . Let me ask you five questions at

3:18

the beginning , with it to be with Pick one that you like

3:20

that old gag you've done

3:22

to me again . Why don't I write

3:24

this ? Well , we've got a reason . You know , the

3:27

church here is a spread of ages

3:29

now , but still the

3:31

largest demographic would be 20

3:33

somethings , I guess 20 to 35s

3:36

or students to 35s . So

3:38

a lot of young men and I

3:40

thought and chatting to

3:42

them , most had no idea

3:44

of what to say about

3:46

what it means to be a man . In

3:49

fact , I did this funny thing we were talking

3:51

about something vaguely related and I was

3:53

just leading a church service here and said okay , put

3:55

your hands up . Sort of a few hundred

3:57

people in the room put your hands up if you

3:59

think men and women are different . And probably

4:01

, you know , two thirds did sort

4:03

of a bit nervously . Am I allowed

4:06

to say this now ? I'm just gonna

4:08

. Most people have got their hands up , I'm fine

4:10

, I'm fine . And now

4:12

, okay , just take your service sheet and write down one

4:14

in one way that they're different . Okay

4:17

, Anyone , anyone

4:19

hands up . If you've written something

4:21

down , I'll be . Anyone written anything

4:23

down hands up . And

4:25

you realize most people haven't got a clue what to say . Yeah

4:28

, and particularly if you're young and

4:31

the stats would bear this outright , the

4:33

if you're 50 something doesn't matter , if you're

4:35

in the US or the UK , you , you'll

4:37

have a go at defining to be a man

4:39

, and you're not embarrassed to be a man If

4:42

you're 25 , 35 year old . You sort of

4:44

are . Yeah

4:46

. Why what to say Although

4:48

?

4:48

I guess even in sort of if you're thinking

4:50

in the broader terms of the culture , as

4:53

that recent documentary that came out what

4:55

is it ? What is a woman ? I think if you ask a question

4:57

like what is a man , that is quite inflammatory

4:59

, isn't it , for lots of folks . One of

5:01

the reasons why they don't want to give an answer , it seems to

5:03

me , is because they're like they . They can't

5:05

say the quiet part out loud . They

5:08

know what they maybe think about some

5:10

aspects of that question , but they know that

5:12

if they were to actually say it out loud they

5:14

could get into trouble . Is that an

5:16

element of it ?

5:18

I think originally I can't remember , you forget

5:20

these things but originally that the book title was something

5:23

like you've written

5:25

stuff , haven't you ? The publishers never let you have

5:27

your own title ?

5:27

Right .

5:28

Anyway yeah . Yes

5:30

, I think the working title was how

5:32

to be a man . What is masculinity ? Post

5:34

me too . And you have to recognize

5:36

that's a massive deal , the me too movement

5:39

, and certainly in the UK , that the

5:41

two things that we didn't have

5:43

the same sort of , quite the same level of celebrity

5:45

, expose the sort

5:47

of Hollywood , the Weinstein's , but

5:50

the two things in the UK that came along at

5:52

a very similar time . One was this a

5:54

murder of a young 20-something girl , a Sarah

5:57

Everide , in London , which caused what's

5:59

going on , and it was by an active policeman and

6:01

men . They're all terrible . And

6:04

then this website that went crazy

6:06

. Everyone's invited as a schoolgirl put

6:08

it together and it was just stories of sexual

6:10

abuse within schools in

6:12

the UK . How rampant and how extensive

6:15

that was . And then you start to think , oh , you know , I remember

6:17

googling or not googling , shoving into Amazon

6:20

toxic masculinity . Whoa

6:23

. Whoa , whoa , whoa . Look at that . Look

6:25

at that number of books with that just in the title

6:28

. That's extraordinary . And

6:30

then euphemisms for and so there's

6:32

good reason . There's good reason why guys

6:34

are on the back foot and their

6:37

default setting is odd

6:39

. I'm not even going to go there because I

6:41

don't want to be associated with what you've got

6:43

in your head by masculine and

6:46

there's a historic , traditional

6:48

picture and I don't

6:50

want to be associated with that at all . The

6:52

problem is , if you don't say something

6:55

, the vacuum gets filled . It

6:58

gets filled by obnoxious characters . The

7:01

Andrew Tates of the world will fill the gap

7:03

. Okay , what am I meant to be as

7:05

a man ? I don't know . I'm a young man . Let

7:07

me have a look . Oh , look at this guy and

7:09

millions and millions watch his videos . Oh

7:11

, he says Is it gonna be

7:13

careful ? A small percentage of things

7:16

which are true , yeah , and then a vast

7:18

wave of things which are , which are not

7:20

. But there either , there's a kernel there which

7:22

people go oh , yeah , but at least he's saying something

7:24

. Now , don't miss him . He Horrific

7:27

, terrible . You know about to go to prison

7:29

. I wouldn't defend him at all

7:31

, but if you don't say something

7:33

sensible , positive , people are gonna gravitate

7:36

towards him .

7:41

Yeah , and

7:52

I guess at this point it is really helpful for

7:54

a pastor to come in with Biblical

7:56

truth which is a foundation for

7:59

an alternative viewpoint , because it seems to me

8:01

that our Culture

8:03

has reached , has run out of road , essentially

8:05

, and the

8:08

main way you defend your position is to

8:10

deny the enemy's position . So everything

8:12

is defined by the other and

8:14

not by it . So the moment , the

8:17

moment a Democrat policy comes

8:19

out , the Republicans hate it . The moment a Republican

8:22

Policy comes out , the Democrats

8:24

hate it . It's it's what are my enemies ? Enemy

8:26

is my friend . There's so

8:28

. And now what we're getting , particularly in the UK

8:31

, I think we're getting people who were on

8:33

the left Moving further towards the right

8:35

. They see there's , there's something

8:37

wrong with progressivism that they can't quite put

8:39

their finger on . They're okay with some of it , but they're

8:42

not okay with other bits of it . And

8:44

Consent doesn't seem to be a good enough

8:46

explanation for what makes you legitimate

8:48

In your actions . And

8:50

then you've got some Christians on the right going . Well , that the

8:53

the basis of all this is the Bible and that

8:55

is revealed truth in scripture . Well , whoa

8:57

, whoa , whoa , whoa . No , we don't want that . So

9:00

therefore , we're sort of stuck with defining

9:02

everything by , by its opposite , by what

9:04

it isn't . And actually it seems to me that

9:06

Christians really have got the power

9:09

and the license

9:11

and the authority to speak into the situation

9:14

, because it seems to me that everyone

9:16

is absolutely clueless and we get a Supreme

9:18

Court judge who was unable to

9:20

say what a woman is , because they're not a biologist

9:23

. If you've gone ten years

9:25

back and just said , in ten years time , this is going

9:27

to be in a hearing for the suitability

9:30

of a Supreme Court judge , people will

9:32

go what , how did

9:34

you get there ? It is extraordinary

9:36

, isn't it ? But it feels like now is a

9:38

time when people are ready for True

9:41

truth and if , if they're not going

9:43

to find it from the church , they'll go to Andrew Tate

9:45

or , you know , in a less toxic way

9:47

, to Jordan Peterson , although obviously he doesn't , he's

9:50

not a universally accepted Figure

9:52

. Is that you're sensing that hunger

9:54

by the sounds of it , man ?

9:56

well , yeah , but Something

9:59

there , this , this , the idea , is a

10:01

zero-sum game . Some

10:03

you know in the politics you win or you

10:05

lose , and I

10:08

read quite a lot . I read quite a lot of stuff

10:10

about being a man good because

10:12

you wrote a book on it . Yeah , I

10:14

felt I felt I probably ought to . You

10:16

know what , what , what , a , what ? A popular , okay

10:18

this you know , I listened to a lot of Jordan Peterson stuff . This

10:20

is a popular people , what , what are they saying

10:23

? And quite a lot of it's presented like that

10:25

oh look , women

10:27

now growing equality in the workplace

10:29

and actually in academics

10:31

, higher percentages going

10:34

to university . And hey

10:36

man , we're losing . This is no good , we're

10:38

losing , we must , we must fight

10:40

back . It's kind of I mean , it's not

10:42

quite as crass as that , but sort of is the tone . Hmm

10:45

this is a zero-sum game and and

10:47

if women rise , men have fallen

10:49

, and so we must reverse that position

10:51

and and you get that cute means of

10:53

in cell movements and things like that . You

10:55

know we've got to fight back and reclaim we're . You

10:58

know society is terrible we're . We're

11:00

being coerced into being celibate when we don't

11:02

want to do the most . Reclaim our whatever they're

11:04

reclaiming by .

11:05

By resolving not to sleep with women who don't want

11:07

to sleep with us anyway .

11:09

Yeah , that's it , yeah , it's a , it's a heroic

11:12

victory . That one , um , yeah

11:14

, it's . Yeah , that's hopeless . So

11:17

I had you know I'm sure I put this in the introduction

11:19

I , I , I'd love for a woman to be able to read

11:21

this book and say , yeah , that's

11:23

good , that's good . I , I'd

11:25

be really pleased if blokes behave like this . Yeah

11:28

, happily , you do get some mums . It's

11:30

very sweet when you get emails from people you don't know I've

11:32

written a book and they say , oh , thanks so much . You know

11:34

, my son's read this . I think it's really healthy and we

11:37

didn't know what to say to it really , and

11:39

we've had some really good conversations . Now , cheers

11:43

, fatmull , you know never , met you and I don't know

11:45

what your name is . But yeah , so game of

11:47

your book and it's all right .

11:50

Yeah , and it seems like , you know , you've got people

11:52

like Louise Perry , obviously not , not a Christian

11:54

, but on the other side sort of saying

11:56

, well it's , feminism is a bit of a disaster . So

11:58

there's even Even folks

12:00

there who wouldn't call themselves Christian are sort

12:02

of reaching out towards the middle . So

12:04

it feels that there could be increasingly

12:07

some sort of common ground there .

12:09

Yes , I think the final straw that's a bad

12:11

way of putting it . But the thing I thought actually I'm gonna

12:13

, I'm gonna have a go at this , I'm gonna have a crack at writing

12:15

something on this was um , again

12:18

, it was , it was reading a few secular things , but was one

12:20

of one journalist , I think it just

12:22

in the UK newspaper at the time is just

12:24

saying yeah , I just , you know , I

12:27

got , I got kids and I know what to say . Basically

12:30

, I say to my girls you can do anything

12:32

, your

12:34

brothers can , and maybe better . And

12:36

I say to the boys I Said

12:39

I don't want to say the boys , yeah

12:43

, I just , I've got nothing to say . Yeah , that's

12:45

probably not great , is it ? And he's

12:48

Hugo Rifkin , you know , I mean that's right . He

12:50

said look , I thought I've been

12:52

a bloke for like 45 years . I should have

12:54

worked out something by now , but I've got nothing

12:56

to say , you know . So the self-deprecated it humorous

12:58

. And you think , yeah , you should

13:00

have something to say .

13:02

Yeah , this is a centre-right columnist

13:04

whose father was a long-serving

13:07

conservative MP and he

13:10

doesn't , doesn't know and and he's not

13:12

ashamed to admit it , and people are kind of

13:14

amused to read it . I mean it does show

13:16

you just quite how far we've we've

13:18

come , and actually , in a comedy sense

13:20

, you look back at shows you watched 10

13:23

, 15 , 20 years ago and it does

13:25

make you wince and it does make you go oh , my goodness

13:28

, this is and now I mean the most

13:30

boring hack differences

13:32

between men and women . Comedy

13:34

from 20 years ago is now

13:36

, is now dangerous , is now you

13:39

know oh , you're waiting for your girlfriend to get

13:41

ready because women take so long

13:43

. It's like , oh , oh , can we

13:45

, can we , can we say that now ? It's like

13:47

this was , this was the most banal material

13:50

20 years ago . So

13:53

it's extraordinary that the down is up

13:55

World that

13:57

we live in .

14:19

Part of the issue , isn't ? It is I heard Douglas Murray

14:21

talking about this that there's

14:24

a sense in which the left

14:26

, people on the left don't know when

14:28

to stick in terms of

14:30

change and people on the right don't

14:32

know when to twist . So in

14:34

other words , he was saying you know , imagine tomorrow the left

14:36

get , get a utopia in which men and women

14:38

Treat each other exactly as

14:41

they want them to treat each other . You're

14:43

in that utopia . What happens at that point ? He

14:46

said ? At that point there's going to be some bloke

14:48

, or woman comes up and they say look

14:50

, I don't feel we get

14:52

enough respect in this area , at which point the progressive

14:54

has no choice but to try and progress

14:57

further . So , in other words , the utopia

14:59

never actually materializes , like

15:01

your Progressives always gonna . You

15:03

know , progressive is gonna progress . I guess there's another way of putting

15:05

it . So the tricky thing is

15:07

there . You would have thought that at some

15:09

point , a progressive is going to have something they want

15:11

to conserve . In other

15:13

words , a progressive is going to become a conservative

15:15

at some point , you would have thought , where it comes to male

15:17

, female roles , but they never seem to reach that

15:20

point and Conservatives , of course , it got the

15:22

reserve that you know the opposite problem

15:24

, which is , if you say to

15:26

a typical Conservative , whether

15:28

it be theological or political , actually

15:30

here's somewhere , here's something

15:32

we need to change , here's something we need

15:34

to Progress beyond

15:37

or towards the

15:39

default response , the knee jerk responses change

15:42

. You know . No , we're , we're conservative , we've got

15:44

to conserve everything . So

15:46

there's that . There's that difficulty

15:48

isn't there of conservatives knowing

15:50

when there are things they need to change and

15:52

and Progressives knowing

15:54

when actually they need to conserve

15:57

. And the beautiful thing about being

15:59

a Christian believer , I think , is that because

16:01

of revealed truth , because of scripture

16:03

, we do know when

16:06

to stick and when to twist , where there are things in our

16:08

lives that we need to , we

16:10

need to change and and Improve , and

16:13

other times there are things that we definitely

16:15

need to hold on to and not let

16:17

go of . And without scripture , it's kind of hard

16:19

to know where you draw the line . You just

16:21

base it on feelings or whether culture is currently

16:23

swinging or Whatever else , and

16:26

I just thought that was that thing from Douglas

16:28

Murray was quite helpful . Yeah , that

16:30

wasn't . There's no question there . That's just me renting

16:32

.

16:33

Yeah . So , having having decided I was gonna have

16:35

a go that's thinking about

16:39

masculinity and doing some stuff at church

16:41

yeah , I went back

16:43

and I'm remarkably

16:45

went back and started reading everything

16:48

I could related , not just husbands

16:50

and wives and Genesis too , but

16:52

fathers , brothers and all

16:54

sorts , and I think I've realized a few

16:56

things new . The truth is , I

16:58

reckon most of this book 50%

17:02

, 60% of it , 70% , I don't know . You

17:05

could have written 500 years ago and would be

17:07

exactly the same . The

17:10

thing that makes it interesting in this area is

17:12

that what it means to be a man

17:14

and a woman does have a cultural

17:16

manifestation . There are some truths

17:18

that are eternally

17:21

true , but some things

17:23

also manifest culturally . So one

17:25

Corinthians 11 is fascinating in that there

17:29

are some timeless elements there about man

17:31

, a woman coming from man

17:34

and how they're relating . And yet there are clearly

17:36

some cultural aspects of it , such

17:38

as hair length , which

17:41

the

17:43

scholars will tell you is it related to the

17:46

cults and the quirky

17:48

Greek cults that were around at the time and what people

17:50

were wearing on their heads and a sign of prostitution

17:53

, of having your hair hanging low . There

17:56

are cultural manifestations . You

17:59

could turn up in a pair

18:01

of trousers in ancient Persia

18:03

and just be laughed at as

18:05

a man . What

18:09

are you wearing ? Because everyone's

18:11

toga dressed and

18:14

now I'm

18:16

sure there'd be some Christians elsewhere . You'd be wearing

18:18

a toga while you're just anathema , or

18:21

a pommel . Women wearing trousers

18:23

disgusting

18:25

, and

18:28

there is some cultural elements to that and

18:31

pulling apart what is genuinely

18:33

biblical and timeless from cultural

18:35

accoutrements and manifestations

18:37

. That's what takes a little

18:39

bit of work and thought , I think .

18:42

Yeah , and I think we don't like to do it . I

18:44

mean , one of the reasons I don't like

18:47

it is because I genuinely

18:49

believe and I'm sure you believe a version of this

18:51

that the Bible does

18:53

interpret itself . So

18:56

we're all aware of these bits of information

18:59

about ancient Near Eastern history , which

19:01

actually means that that parable that Jesus told means

19:03

the opposite of what it appears to

19:05

mean , because I have special knowledge

19:07

from outside of scripture that sort

19:09

of flips it on its head . So that's

19:12

obviously the worst version of that . But

19:14

then there are these cultural manifestations

19:17

where to do this or to say this in

19:19

one way would be incredibly

19:21

provocative , or particularly in a

19:23

way in which the Old Testament has reframed

19:26

this in so many different ways , like , obviously

19:28

, jesus meeting the Samaritan woman at the well

19:30

is

19:32

a hot cultural scene

19:34

. If you're familiar with the Old Testament

19:36

. This is where at least two patriarchs

19:39

have hooked up with their wives , and

19:41

so you're thinking is Jesus gonna go over and kiss

19:43

the Samaritan woman ? There

19:45

are loads of these things where the

19:47

Bible sort of gives us that cultural

19:49

context itself , and then there are other

19:52

periods where we just gotta use our common

19:54

sense .

19:55

But Christians , occasionally , Even

19:57

some of these , like I want to bring things to Levin men

19:59

should have short hair . Okay , hey

20:02

, but back in the Old Testament it was really godly

20:05

to be a Nazarite and have long hair . Right

20:07

, it can't timelessly be

20:09

true . Yeah , you know

20:12

, if you've got long hair , you're

20:14

a godless

20:16

. You know , worldly hippie , hey

20:18

, hippie . I'm not sure I've used that word for 27

20:21

years .

20:24

We're honoured . You used it on this show . The word of

20:26

the podcast is hippie . Yeah

20:28

, that's it .

20:29

Wow , who would you ? You

20:31

can't say that's timelessly true , because

20:34

it's not even biblically timelessly

20:36

true . To come on . Let's

20:39

put some sensible comment here .

20:41

Yeah .

21:01

You can't fight in here . This is the water room

21:04

.

21:06

I think the women head coverings

21:08

thing is a whole sidebar for another

21:10

podcast in particular , but

21:13

in a way I think it does really

21:15

exacerbate or

21:18

at least heightens that kind of sense

21:20

of this is a really specific

21:22

cultural moment

21:24

of specificity that we find

21:26

abhorrent , because it singles out women to

21:29

be different from men in a particular way

21:31

. And it

21:33

is just . These passages

21:35

are much harder to read now in some ways because we

21:38

just know how they sound , given

21:40

the context in which they're being

21:42

heard .

21:43

But you've also said something there . I think

21:45

nowadays , 31st

21:49

century , to

21:51

say different , we hear

21:53

that so loudly . I think even

21:55

20 years ago you could have said , oh , those

21:57

two people are different and it wasn't

21:59

automatically heard as

22:02

and therefore not equal . I

22:04

think now , as soon as you say the word different

22:06

, inequality is

22:09

heard as part

22:11

of that In a Western setting

22:13

. To say different

22:15

equals , not equal , in

22:18

a way the Bible does not . The Bible is quite happy to

22:20

say different and equal , but

22:23

I think that's an increasingly the

22:27

fault setting now is you

22:30

said different words , you just

22:32

you create your hierarchies , by the way .

22:34

Which in one sense , is almost as anti-biblical

22:37

as it gets , because the one

22:39

thing we see , I think , throughout scripture is

22:41

discernment , and wisdom

22:44

is knowing is the knowledge of good and

22:46

evil , for example . And it's there's lots of

22:48

divisions , obviously in the Old Testament

22:50

, with clean and unclean , and there are times

22:52

when you do this and you don't do that . You don't go in here

22:55

, you do stay out there . If you've got this

22:57

thing , you have to stay outside of

22:59

the camp , and if you , there's lots of

23:01

division and

23:04

knowing how to apply it in different situations

23:06

is really difficult . And I think we

23:08

maybe think that the New Testament just wipes all

23:11

of that away because everyone

23:13

is now included in the family

23:15

of God , in the kingdom of God . But again

23:17

, it's not . It's just

23:20

never quite as simple as that , is it ? We

23:22

are always having to discern and

23:24

use wisdom , whereas

23:26

we kind of continually want one rule for

23:28

all time , in all places , which

23:31

also applies to all of history . So if somebody

23:33

600 years ago didn't do it this way , well , they're

23:35

the worst human being that there's ever been , and

23:38

we just sort of don't really want

23:40

to , such that everything is a tweet or

23:43

a tabloid headline , and

23:45

if it's not that , then we're not interested .

23:48

Yes , I think one of the interesting passages I ended

23:50

up spending a bit of time thinking about . There's one

23:52

, thessalonians two , which I've never really . You

23:55

know , men and women , I mean , it's nothing to do

23:57

with that . There's a passage about ministry , isn't it ? But

23:59

I think it's really fascinating . There Paul

24:02

described me as ministry amongst the Thessalonians

24:05

. You know , as a father I exalted

24:07

you and as a mother , I nurtured

24:09

you . And you think , oh , that's interesting , he's

24:12

quite content to say fathering

24:15

Generally , that's more of an exaltatory

24:18

sort of , you

24:20

know , parenting , mothering

24:22

, that's more of a nurturing way

24:24

. And yet I

24:26

did both . I think , oh

24:28

, there's nuance there . Oh

24:30

, that makes it a little bit more complicated . There

24:32

is something , and I would argue

24:34

there is something inherent in

24:36

maleness and there is something inherent in

24:38

femaleness . I don't know , not all would

24:40

agree with that , someone just think it's functions in certain

24:43

relationships marriage , church , leadership but

24:45

I do think there's something inherent to

24:47

maleness and femaleness . And yet Paul

24:50

said I manifested both . Now

24:52

that , working that out , exploring

24:55

that , that takes a bit of thought , but

24:57

I think that's what we're gonna do . And one

25:00

individual you know there are three blokes on this screen

25:03

we're all gonna manifest

25:05

those sort of nurturing and

25:07

exaltatory to a certain different

25:09

degrees , different strengths probably .

25:12

Partly depending on the gender of

25:14

your children as well . So I've

25:17

got two daughters and I speak to

25:19

them and if I had a son , I'm sure my relationship

25:21

would be in some ways different

25:23

, but also in some ways similar

25:25

, and that's fine . Again

25:28

, it's not a zero-something . Or

25:30

people get quite hung up on the fact that men

25:34

are taller than women . I know a really

25:37

tall woman . Yes

25:40

, some women

25:42

are taller than some men . Women

25:46

are better at reading than men , I

25:48

believe is an observable , scientifically

25:50

testable fact , which therefore

25:53

wouldn't surprise us , that publishing is dominated by

25:55

women . But there's always this desire

25:57

to sort of go no , no , no . I know someone

26:00

who is at the other end of the bell curve and therefore

26:02

and

26:05

it's exhausting if you allow

26:07

this stuff to annoy you , but in a way it's

26:10

very hard to avoid , isn't

26:12

it ?

26:13

Some of these stats are remarkably familiar If

26:15

you look at the data for

26:17

to spend upon your demographic . But

26:20

WhatsApp and Snapchat

26:22

and Facebook and Instagram

26:25

pretty much all of them . The percentage of

26:27

female users is about two thirds

26:29

Right . To a certain extent . Now I mean

26:32

give or take a percentage . It's consistent across

26:34

all social networks .

26:36

It's interesting Also the fact that the

26:38

way people are affected by those social

26:41

media platforms as well , even once

26:43

you've adjusted for the percentage of men and women using

26:45

them seems to be . There's obviously

26:48

a concern for those of us with daughters that the incidences

26:51

of things like depression and mental

26:53

illness of one kind or another which seem

26:56

to be that are triggered by social

26:58

media it seems to be much higher in young

27:01

women than it is in young men , and so that

27:03

in itself poses

27:05

a question , doesn't it About ? What is it about

27:08

, if you like , the way

27:10

that women are wired and the way

27:12

that men are wired . That means that that seems

27:15

to be an empirically observable fact . It's quite

27:17

intriguing .

27:18

Well , yeah , you touched on the interesting that

27:20

he does occasionally oh , finally , finally

27:22

, sorry .

27:24

No , not at all Hell . I love when people say things like

27:27

that sorry .

27:29

No , it's the first time you've not been boring in weeks .

27:32

Well , don't tell my wife that .

27:35

Secular psychiatrist . Now it's

27:37

quite a movement to say , look , I know it's really

27:39

awkward , but

27:42

don't quote me , but what

27:45

I do because I'm writing in general , so they are being quite . But

27:47

men and women's brains they're different

27:49

. Yeah , and if we're going to

27:51

be good at our jobs , we should

27:53

recognise that . Yeah .

27:55

Some medication doesn't work as well on

27:57

women as on men , or vice versa . I believe yeah

27:59

.

28:01

And when we're looking at data , can we separate

28:03

it by sex , because then

28:07

our treatment plans are going

28:09

to be better .

28:09

Yeah , and you've got also

28:12

academics . I

28:14

was listening to a podcast the other day about somebody

28:16

who works with . Does scientific

28:18

data in this area ? See , children

28:20

and playgrounds don't know how they're meant to behave

28:22

, so they just do what comes naturally

28:24

. And so , therefore , the boys join

28:27

forces and go and fight imaginary dragons

28:30

together , and the girls tend to

28:32

join forces and look

28:34

after something and nurture something

28:36

. So the girls are more likely to go and , you

28:38

know , find something to do together

28:40

. That is a nurturing thing , and the boys will invent

28:43

an enemy in order to destroy it . And

28:45

the moment you sort of say that , you just go , yeah

28:47

, and if you have boys or girls

28:49

or both , you just sort of know . And

28:51

I've got two girls , one of whom

28:53

is very feminine

28:56

in terms of being very artistic and

28:58

she likes flowers and colour , and the other one , you

29:00

know , likes cricket and woodwork . But

29:03

they're both girls . They know who they

29:05

are , but you just do know there's a difference

29:07

. And so when she was younger , my

29:09

daughter used to sort of think that she was a bit more

29:12

of a boy , and then she'd play with boys and discover she

29:14

wasn't like boys . Boys

29:17

do different things and they play rougher and

29:19

they're more okay with this sort of thing

29:21

, and so she would see

29:23

that quite quickly and obviously you just got to figure

29:26

this all stuff out for herself . But

29:28

there was just a clear difference

29:30

, isn't there ? When they don't know , there's

29:33

not meant to be .

29:37

Sometimes I mean , yeah , I'm afraid

29:39

I'm going to be boring . Mr Nuance , it gets

29:41

sometimes . Sometimes , generally

29:43

.

29:44

How dare you come on this show and bring your

29:46

nuance with you ? Yeah .

29:48

Well , of course , I've

29:51

got a big part of it right here , because I knew I was going to need

29:53

it today .

29:54

That's right . I stopped up on Nuance .

29:55

Yeah , if you

29:57

draw a random woman and a random man out

29:59

of the population , the probability that the man

30:02

will be more aggressive is 60%

30:04

. If you bet on the man , you win 60% of the time

30:06

. That's not a walloping difference . It's

30:08

not 95% of the time , you

30:10

know . It's a difference that is

30:13

substantive , it's significant

30:15

, it's measurable .

30:17

Let's talk about the book itself , just

30:20

briefly , because you've got there

30:22

are seven principles in this book

30:25

and I

30:27

won't go through . The more people can buy

30:29

the book . But as you were going through these seven principles

30:31

, I guess there was an element of self-examination

30:34

as you were doing them and you might have thought to yourself

30:36

oh yes , that's

30:39

, you know , you were basically writing the

30:41

book for yourself first , initially

30:43

. And so in what way were you personally

30:46

challenged that you think I

30:49

need to work at this , I need to work at that , or

30:51

I now look back and with regret , think

30:53

this or that how did this book affect you

30:56

personally ?

30:57

Well , thank you very much for assuming I'm not a hypocrite with a lack

30:59

of self-awareness .

31:03

I do know you , matt yeah

31:05

.

31:06

You know , fortunately yes , those who know me you're

31:10

writing on what Fortunately not

31:12

oh

31:15

, this is Ebsom flows . The thing is , it's

31:18

possible to make all sorts of mistakes . I mean

31:20

, if you haven't , but if you ask me in a one liner

31:22

, okay , biblical

31:24

masculinity , I think I'd say something like

31:26

strength , courage

31:29

, leadership in the service of others , something

31:31

like that . Now , those first three are overlapping

31:33

to a degree , but they all

31:35

carry a certain different nuance to

31:38

them . Genesis two there

31:41

is a responsibility laid

31:43

upon Adam that is not laid

31:45

upon Eve in the same way , and

31:49

the way the Bible patch takes

31:51

that theme and plays it , and I don't think you can

31:53

just say that was just for that one early

31:55

married couple . I think there's inherent something to that

31:57

.

31:58

The Adam story gets more and more puzzling

32:00

the more and more you think about it . It

32:03

is . There are so few verses , there are

32:05

so few words , and the more you think about it

32:07

, the more you think what should

32:09

Adam have done ? Why , how

32:11

was did Eve know exactly

32:13

? She said we must not touch it

32:16

. God didn't say that

32:18

to Adam . And the more you think about that story

32:20

, the more it really does a number on you as well , doesn't

32:22

it ? Because there are so

32:24

many concrete things there , but then there are so many things

32:26

that are unsaid , that are very

32:28

puzzling , and it feels like something that we should meditate

32:30

on for all our lives

32:33

.

32:34

Yes , but there's some basic things . It's

32:36

really obvious Adam has given a commandment

32:38

and he's given a restriction before

32:40

he was even on the scene . And

32:42

Paul would say in Romans five that he's culpable

32:45

for sin entering the world . So

32:47

there's clearly that . So

32:49

he's given a leadership role now .

32:52

He should have killed the snake right , as in , he should have

32:54

chased the snake away . He should have throttled

32:57

it , thrown it out and

32:59

the snake might have come back the next day slightly

33:01

bigger and stronger , but that's how

33:03

you grow , I think .

33:05

That's it basically . It's like the end of crocodile dundee . You

33:07

should have turned up and said Eve , look at my boots , I've

33:10

killed the snake and look at them . I've turned them into a nice

33:12

pair of boots . That's not a knife . Yeah , oh

33:15

yeah that's it Not

33:19

an infallible model of masculinity

33:21

, really ?

33:23

You surprised me .

33:24

Yeah . So there is a

33:26

sort of now , oh okay

33:29

, now you're under difficult territory . How

33:31

is that to be manifested ? That

33:33

leadership role , or

33:35

in the service of others ? Make sure it's

33:37

in the service of others ? That's , I think

33:39

you get the pattern , or

33:42

you get the principles of masculinity . Yes

33:44

, I think that you can trace many of them from Genesis

33:46

too , the supreme model of them , I

33:48

mean , do look at Jesus , for goodness sake . So

33:52

that leadership in the service of others . Now

33:54

, so you asked , going back to your question

33:56

, which I haven't forgotten yet , what about myself

33:58

? Oh , I think sometimes I've failed to lead

34:00

our family Is that manifests in a family

34:03

setting ? And sometimes I

34:05

think I've been a bit too . I've

34:07

pushed things through too quickly without

34:10

, in a one P to three sense , making

34:12

sure I've really understood my wife on

34:14

why she's reluctant , and I

34:17

may have been right , maybe

34:19

not , but the way I did it was wrong because

34:22

I pushed it through too quickly . So look

34:25

. I'm just one individual

34:27

, but I think you can found

34:29

both sides of the fence in

34:31

that sort of just as one

34:34

principle .

34:38

There's a good old fashioned word for people like

34:40

this we call them suckers

34:42

.

34:50

That leadership thing is something particularly

34:52

that I've witnessed , particularly in

34:55

somewhere . It's quite clear that the

34:57

wife would like the husband to lead

34:59

, and actually a lot of the and

35:01

so , although they're not wishing to be dominated

35:05

in a particular way , they are wishing for

35:07

there to be an element of

35:09

leadership . And I guess for

35:11

some men may be reluctant because they're unsure

35:13

. They may be reluctant because they've been told

35:15

not to do that because it's toxic , or

35:18

they may just be lazy , they

35:21

may just be wishing , and in a way

35:23

one doesn't know what Adam was thinking at

35:25

that moment , whether he's just sort of this will probably pan out fine

35:27

, or whether he couldn't be bothered . But

35:30

I guess we all know in our hearts why we don't

35:32

do those things , what we're

35:34

really afraid of , and some

35:36

are probably yearning to lead but they're too scared

35:38

to do it because of what it might look like , and for

35:41

others it may be . I don't

35:43

wanna be in charge of anyone but myself and

35:46

I'm an INFP . Just

35:48

look , just figure it out guys . I'll

35:50

be over here writing my novel and

35:54

I guess we all have those different ways of

35:56

expressing our masculinity

35:58

and therefore letting ourselves

36:00

down on that school .

36:01

Self-awareness is a pretty helpful

36:03

thing , I think . Possibly the

36:06

chapter I enjoyed oh , is that right

36:08

? I don't know the two I enjoyed , I don't know writing

36:10

most , or it did me most good , let

36:13

me put it in those terms Probably thinking

36:15

harder about friendships and thinking

36:17

what it means to be a father

36:19

, and father

36:22

is one of the rich things , I think . A

36:24

lot of the time I

36:26

think as a younger Christian , most of

36:28

the perspective I'd got on the differences between

36:30

men and women had essentially took marriage and

36:32

watered it down . It

36:35

said men are like well , husband , let's just water

36:37

it down if you're not married . Now

36:40

, there's something to that . But realizing , particularly

36:43

in the New Testament , the very rich reign

36:45

of thinking to do

36:47

with father , particularly the apostle Paul , how

36:49

he describes his relationship as father

36:52

to son and

36:56

what does that mean if he's

36:58

a father to Onosimus , a

37:00

father to Timothy , that

37:04

these are his dear sons in

37:06

the faith . What was the dynamic of that relationship

37:09

and how

37:11

do you go about fathering and what's at the

37:13

exaltation ? And that's something

37:15

that I think any

37:17

man can do . You can be a father to a younger

37:19

bloke and

37:22

I think I observe here lots

37:24

of 20-somethings who have moved

37:26

to the big city . They've moved to London

37:28

and they may be away from their families and

37:30

or increasingly

37:33

confusing

37:35

family backgrounds . To

37:37

have a bloke , 20 years on , just sit down and

37:39

say , yeah , well , look , I make all

37:41

sorts of mistakes , but here's how I've got through my

37:43

career and thought about things and try

37:45

, as a Christian , it's gold dust

37:47

Is that ? You know , and

37:50

I've had to work quite hard here to say to the

37:52

40 , maybe 50-something year olds hey

37:55

, could you mentor a younger guy ? Oh , but , matt

37:57

, you know my family it's

38:00

not always great and you know , haven't done everything

38:02

right in my career . Yeah , exactly

38:04

that . Just tell them that , yeah yeah , you're

38:07

lying . Don't pretend . Oh , you're

38:09

, oh no , jeff , you're

38:12

not perfect . Well , go , stuff it , I'll go

38:14

and find . I'm going to find the bloke . That's

38:16

perfect . And it

38:18

was bound to be like oh no

38:20

, maybe there isn't , maybe

38:23

it's you and me and we

38:25

get on with it . So , thinking

38:27

about that , and what is the

38:29

model of the Christian life ? I give knowledge as my own

38:31

sum , but to younger

38:34

guys , yeah , and investing in that

38:36

, I . It's probably not quite what

38:38

you asked , but I think it is . No , it is helpful ?

38:39

No , it's because it doesn't come naturally . You

38:41

don't know . You don't know what kind of

38:43

dad you're going to be when you , when you are an

38:45

actual father , and

38:47

it partly depends on what kind of dad you

38:50

had as well , I guess , doesn't it ? I mean , I

38:52

I think I absolutely

38:54

think the world of my dad , the

38:56

effect my dad has had on my dad I'm not even sure

38:58

we'd call himself a believer , but

39:00

actually he's I think my view done an awful lot

39:02

of things right , had modeled an awful lot of things , and

39:05

there were one or two things where I just think , oh OK , mom's

39:07

got a point on that one . But

39:11

, but , yeah , your own dad

39:13

is got this massive influence on

39:15

you , and I think it's probably one

39:17

of those things that we don't look back and maybe Christians

39:20

of my generation or younger

39:22

, who aren't necessarily from a Christian home , don't

39:24

maybe acknowledge the fact that their own upbringing

39:27

, their own dad who maybe he didn't , you know , my

39:29

dad didn't read the Bible with me or pray

39:32

with me or anything like that . So I might therefore

39:34

think he's hasn't got , he didn't have anything

39:36

to teach me , and nothing could be further from

39:38

the truth . I really do think

39:40

that , you know , my , my own

39:42

dad has shaped me enormously

39:45

and I increasingly now I

39:48

just think why couldn't I do that thing ? Oh

39:50

, it's because I'm like my dad and my dad wouldn't . You know what I

39:52

mean . I just sort of think I'm much more

39:54

like my dad than I , than I think I am . But

39:57

, yeah , your own father clearly has a big

39:59

impact on this whole thing , doesn't it ? Yeah

40:02

?

40:02

massive .

40:03

And even if you're , you are somebody who's who's

40:05

dad wasn't great . I

40:07

guess it goes back to the point you

40:09

were making about mentoring

40:12

people . There's a sense in which negative

40:14

examples can actually be quite powerful as well

40:16

, you know . So you can look back and think

40:18

, well , I wish I'd had this as a kid , and

40:20

it can really be a catalyst

40:22

for for for some

40:25

good , good daddying , I think .

40:27

Yeah , yeah , definitely Do

40:35

it . Do

40:43

it , do

40:45

it , come

40:51

on , I'm

40:54

here .

40:58

Come on Friendship

41:01

. I think I enjoyed thinking about friendship . I

41:03

think God has been very kind to me in many , many ways

41:05

, but I have got really good friends

41:07

. So it's like , did my head in , or men

41:09

, men don't have friends . You

41:12

know caricature . But then you read

41:14

stuff , a lot of stuff , and you think , oh

41:17

, okay , I think that probably is true . Lots of

41:19

blokes don't have friends . There's a great joke

41:21

about this .

41:22

I'm sure we've mentioned it before that Jesus

41:24

is greatest miracle . He got to his early

41:26

30s and he had 12 friends and

41:29

this time . Okay , this it's . It kind

41:31

of works as a joke at least , so

41:33

there must be something in it .

41:35

Yeah , but also just the realism

41:37

you need in that you know there are only two or three

41:39

you carry with you throughout the whole of life

41:41

. That's okay . Blokes tend to have a lot

41:44

of acquaintances and

41:46

confuse them for friends and then actually

41:48

have anyone they confide in and

41:50

just thinking through different time

41:53

and levels of that and it's

41:55

helpful . But friends make a massive

41:57

difference . They make a break . You really .

41:59

I was really struck by your because your dedication

42:01

to this , in this book , is to

42:03

two friends , two male

42:05

friends who you

42:08

said you've made an enormous difference to my life

42:10

and to that of your God son , what

42:12

you know , without mentioning names , as it were . What

42:15

one or two things have you learned from these guys in the

42:17

context of that , in the context of those friendships ?

42:21

Okay , you

42:23

want me to name you , don't you ? I'm sorry .

42:25

No , I'm not one of the two people . I know that

42:27

it's fine .

42:29

How do you , how do you summarize these , these sort of things

42:31

? They've always been there . I'm

42:34

about to get a bit tweener , but there's

42:36

a pop song , a

42:39

popular music song , by the Middle Age Irish

42:41

band called the Script . There's other

42:43

Irish bands are available , other than you too . Oh

42:47

, I didn't know that . You know that . The

42:49

reason I like that . One of their songs is called Run Through Wolves and

42:51

it's just a song about friendship and there aren't many of those

42:53

you know and it's a really good song which

42:55

, essentially , I've got friends that will run through walls . I've

42:58

got friends who fly when called

43:00

and they'll just turn up and they'll

43:03

just be there in the crises and

43:05

they don't just send text messages

43:08

, they just come up and physically they recognize that

43:10

. So yeah , the two are

43:12

dedicated to . Not only have I

43:14

think they've shaped me enormously , they've helped me

43:16

grow as a Christian , but they've really turned

43:18

up in the moments , both

43:21

for me and my son when

43:23

we're in trouble . You know there's I forget

43:25

where it is problems 27 . Don't

43:27

never give up on your

43:29

friend's house or the

43:31

friend of your father

43:33

. I

43:41

don't talk about it anyway , but what's the one that Jody and Andy the

43:43

guys did ? It is just in my son , who's 18

43:46

, that you know read it and said you

43:48

know the striking thing , you know you dedicated

43:50

this book to these . Their kids are the same as

43:52

them and

43:54

hey look , I've just got into a real pickle . And

43:57

his son traveled two hours

43:59

on a Saturday night just

44:01

to come and see me briefly . He's

44:05

just like his dad , go figure , and

44:08

that doesn't always work that way . But

44:10

yeah , people willing to tell you the truth

44:12

, people willing to tell

44:14

you hard truth . Yeah . People

44:17

who can be completely

44:19

emotionally transparent before

44:21

.

44:23

Yeah , and it is worth thinking

44:25

to yourself . Therefore , if you're a bloke

44:27

, am I that for someone else ? You can't be

44:29

that for seven , eight , nine people , but am

44:31

I that for one or two people

44:34

? And it is really helpful . It may

44:36

be just even just like a little WhatsApp group or something

44:39

I've got . I'm part of a WhatsApp

44:41

group with with three other guys and

44:43

there's an element of am

44:46

I crazy ? This

44:48

has just happened , or this is . You know , I've got to

44:50

do this and it is a really and it's not . It's

44:53

not doesn't necessarily come naturally to

44:55

men , does it . No

44:58

.

44:58

Although interesting , I tend to once

45:00

a year in our evening service I do a topical

45:02

series in June for four weeks I

45:06

beat my I don't know why I hate it . So

45:08

it's much harder work than just going through a book of the Bible . So

45:10

it is . Somehow

45:12

I've committed myself to this rhythm and normally

45:14

, you know , at Christmas time I ask the staff

45:16

and ask some of the congregation members what do you want ? A

45:19

little bit of a parish church , and the church is everyone who thinks for

45:21

their church . You know , notенный what they're trying

45:23

to do . Certainly Bruyne is cutting them off

45:25

at all costs . We're making Friday or

45:38

enabled initially , beginning to America improves grid main

45:40

hours typically . Anyway this year they say we want friendship , like Art

45:42

packaged four talks Up

45:45

, four talks on friendship , 80 to 35s . A

45:48

lot of sort of blokes would

45:50

sort of conspiratorially come up

45:52

and say the women are much

45:54

better at friendships than us , aren't they ? I mean , they

45:56

just share more deeply and candidly

45:59

and you go . Well , I don't know about that . And

46:01

then you have a number of women come up and say men

46:04

are just much better at friendships than we

46:06

are , you know , they're just , they're

46:08

blunter . They say , hey

46:11

, stop doing that idiot . Whereas

46:15

we're like really anxious as girls that we're going to

46:17

like upset our friends and it'll put the

46:19

friendship and we take ages

46:21

to forgive Blokes , get over stuff much

46:23

better than we do , and it

46:26

is . I think it was weak-wired , oh

46:28

, by the way , in the preamble

46:30

, just so you know , I've had like half

46:32

a dozen guys and half a dozen women come up

46:34

and say the other

46:36

sex , they're much better at friendship than we are

46:38

.

46:39

Just you know , seems like

46:41

that might be quite a good place to

46:43

land the plane , do you think , james ?

46:45

I think so definitely . The book

46:47

is called Reclaiming Masculinity

46:50

, written by Matt Fuller , and is available from

46:52

the Good Book Company and

46:55

is available in all the usual

46:57

places . We're going to keep chatting a

46:59

bit more because Barry's basically

47:01

got some quite personal questions he wants to ask

47:03

Matt , and so we're going to get

47:05

into those , and our patreons have

47:07

made one or two comments as well

47:09

, so we'll talk about those . If you want to be part of that , join

47:11

us on Patreon , go to

47:13

the show notes and click the link , and or

47:15

you can . If you listen on Apple Podcast , you

47:17

can subscribe rather than merely

47:20

follow , and you can be part

47:22

of that . You can

47:24

get that longer unedited

47:26

conversation , no holds

47:28

barred . I'm making it sound like more than it is , anyway

47:31

, but for now , matt , thanks very

47:33

much , indy's .

47:35

Thanks , matt oh you're most welcome , gentlemen

47:39

.

47:39

Thanks very much for listening everyone . Speak to you soon , bye , bye .

47:49

Maybe you're right , barry , and I don't know who you listen

47:51

to and I don't know where you go to church . I don't know who your friends are

47:54

, but what are you doing here ? Who ?

47:55

are you ?