1:52

Welcome to Cooper and Kerry have words . My

1:54

name's Barry Cooper . I live in a place called

1:56

Deland in Florida . 4000 miles

1:58

away from me , across the Atlantic , is

2:01

my friend , james Kerry . We've

2:03

known each other for what 30 years

2:06

or so now and James

2:08

is over there in Yoval's summer

2:10

set . James , how's life ?

2:14

Life is good . It's starting to be autumnal

2:17

, which is great for me , because , although it's

2:19

the end of the cricket season , it's the beginning of

2:21

autumn , and I love autumn .

2:23

So that's all good . The

2:26

smack of leather on Willow . It's a wonderful time

2:28

of year , isn't it all round ? Now

2:30

, what is it ? This is very much come

2:32

off your bat , but just to continue

2:34

the metaphor , and when I heard the subject , I

2:36

thought , yeah , this definitely

2:39

needs to be talked about . What is it

2:41

that you wish to share with us today ? What have you brought

2:43

to show the class ?

2:45

Well , I have brought listening , and

2:48

particularly with reference to the verse in

2:50

James , chapter one on which I recently

2:53

preached a sermon , that we should be quick

2:55

to listen , slow to speak

2:57

and slow to anger

2:59

, and there's an interesting kind of connection

3:02

between those , and some

3:04

people are already listening , just thinking , well , it's about

3:06

time James Kerry listen to that advice . Being

3:08

slow to speak , let the other guy

3:10

get a word in edge ways . So

3:13

I tend to think as

3:16

I speak as well , so I'm a bit of a verbal

3:18

processor , I think .

3:20

What drew you to that particular passage , or was it

3:22

a sign to you ?

3:23

It was a sign to me , but we've been doing a summer

3:25

series in my church about our

3:27

mouths , our ears , our

3:29

I don't know feet .

3:31

Yeah , other parts of the body .

3:32

I don't remember ? Yeah , spleen , no idea . There's

3:35

plenty of that . And although actually

3:37

this most recent Sunday

3:39

we did mouth as well , which we will also

3:42

hopefully get onto , because it's

3:44

talking about also in

3:46

James chapter three

3:48

I think was it four I've

3:50

got it here somewhere James three , where

3:53

James doesn't think much of our ability to speak either

3:56

, so it's

3:59

a bit of a wow , you

4:01

guys are the worst . So I thought it'd be good

4:03

to talk about that , because I think it

4:06

really did surprise me once I looked

4:08

at the verse , particularly in context as well

4:10

, the fact that it links listening

4:12

to being slow to anger

4:14

. I thought well , this could be an interesting

4:16

chat and I'd be interested in your initial

4:19

take on it . I mean , I wrote a sub stack about it which we can

4:21

link to in the show notes as well , and

4:23

as you read it , maybe what jumped out at

4:25

you .

4:26

Yeah , well , I was just going to say just in

4:28

passing , if you're not on James's sub stack , make

4:30

sure you get on there , because he's turning out

4:32

great material on there , week by week as

4:34

well , worth reading . And

4:36

what is James

4:39

essentially saying then ? James

4:41

is he saying listen

4:43

, chums , you've got

4:45

two of these , you got one

4:48

of these . Just you

4:50

know , take a , take a hint from

4:52

nature . What , what exactly

4:54

is going on here ? Help us to dive deeply

4:56

into this .

4:58

Well , firstly , james I think is a fascinating

5:01

book because it doesn't sound

5:03

like the others . I think it's really

5:05

interesting how James has got a different

5:08

tone as well , luther would agree with you . So

5:10

, yes , that's right , he has his own reservations about it

5:12

. But James , who we think is the brother of Jesus

5:14

in the case , in this case I would

5:17

say James is the book that sounds most like

5:19

Jesus's words and talking

5:21

, because the way Paul talks and the way

5:23

Jesus talks actually sounds quite different

5:25

in terms of tonally and stylistically

5:27

and conceptually , is well , in terms

5:29

of abstract theology , whereas

5:32

James sounds like halfway between

5:34

Jesus , particularly

5:36

in the Beatitudes and Proverbs

5:39

. There's lots of wisdom tightly

5:41

packed together , but it's not just sort of fire

5:45

hosed out although that would be fine if

5:47

it were . But , in particular , what

5:49

struck me was the context of this

5:51

verse is the idea that we

5:53

don't want to be double minded . I think that's the

5:56

theme of James . Don't be tossed

5:58

around by different opinions

6:00

and different feelings . You want

6:02

to be rooted , and one

6:05

way in which that happens and

6:07

boy , we need to hear this now , in an age

6:09

of anger is

6:12

the fact that do you know what it starts

6:14

with listening , which I thought was a very

6:16

surprising place to start

6:18

. So there's lots of preamble in

6:20

chapter one where James

6:22

is unpacking . You know the fact

6:24

that we do need to be much more rooted

6:26

and not blown around , but

6:29

that we are easily blown around

6:31

. I think .

6:33

Yeah , and presumably if we're getting angry

6:35

, just looking at James , chapter one , verse

6:38

19 , and following here , if we're getting angry

6:40

, we are not . And

6:42

not only we're not listening , but we're also not doing

6:45

, we're not acting on the words that

6:47

we hear . Because he seems to be making

6:49

a connection here , doesn't he , between you

6:52

, know ? He says verse 22 , but

6:54

be doers of the word and not hearers

6:56

only . So

6:58

there's a connection not only with

7:00

being angry and not listening , but then , of

7:02

course , being angry and not actually obeying

7:04

God's word . Yeah , and

7:07

we do see that , don't we ? Anecdotally , I think , pastorally

7:09

, the most difficult

7:12

conversations you have with people

7:14

pastorally is you feel that quite

7:16

often there's a hostility there , which

7:18

means that they're just not really hearing

7:20

you or , for that matter , more importantly

7:23

, hearing God's word , and they're

7:25

getting into a spin as a result of it . Just

7:27

words , but good words

7:29

. That's where ideas

7:31

begin . Maybe you should listen

7:33

to them . Is the solution to this

7:35

? Then , going straight to the solutions

7:37

here , what would you say to someone

7:39

who struggles to

7:42

listen when

7:44

they are just in everyday conversation

7:46

with people ? Because that does seem to be a

7:48

thing , doesn't it ? The thing , where people are just

7:50

thinking of what they're going to

7:53

say next rather

7:55

than actually really being in the moment listening

7:57

. I mean , how is there a way we can get

7:59

into the ? Get better at that ?

8:01

Well , yeah , I think one way he

8:03

says by not answering your question is

8:06

to take an extra step back and

8:08

just think about the diet that's

8:10

going in through our ears . So we're

8:13

pretty obsessed with the diet that goes in through

8:15

our mouths , but what do we ? What

8:17

are we listening to ? We don't actually switch our

8:19

ears off at any point . I

8:21

think that's quite significant , and if you're

8:24

a podcast listener , it

8:26

may be that you spend an awful lot

8:28

of time listening to podcasts

8:30

that you either

8:32

violently agree with or

8:35

violently disagree with , or

8:37

you're sort of just trying to consume and audit

8:39

information as fast as possible . And

8:42

these are all fine things

8:44

to do . You know , we need a balanced diet

8:47

, both through our mouths but also

8:49

through our ears , and I think one thing

8:51

that I've really noticed recently

8:54

is that I do need to stop listening

8:56

to anything and just let myself

8:58

think and not constantly require input

9:01

. That therefore requires how do I feel about

9:03

this ? How do I feel about this ? And

9:05

so you know , yesterday I drove three

9:08

hours in a car and I listened to a . I listened

9:10

to a the Daily Prayer app

9:12

, the Church of England Daily Prayer app , for the first 20 minutes

9:14

, which has got it's mostly Bible

9:17

, liturgy , psalms , readings , lecture

9:19

, new readings and that kind of thing collect

9:21

. And then I listened to a podcast

9:24

, which is actually a productivity podcast I think it was the Cal

9:26

Newport one that I quite like and

9:28

then my brain started working . But then

9:30

I just switched off all audio and for about an hour and a half

9:33

I was just thinking . I

9:36

didn't even have music on . So I think in a way

9:39

, we need to learn how to just take

9:41

a step back , listen , think . You

9:44

know , I try to go to go for a walk most days

9:46

and it's really easy to take

9:48

headphones with you and listen to a podcast or listen

9:50

to an audio book or listen to something , listen

9:52

to the radio , even listen to music

9:55

, and it's like nature's

9:57

got a soundtrack . Could

9:59

try that . The birds are there , there's

10:02

the sound of wind rustling . So

10:04

I think in a way , we're so

10:07

overly cranked for listening

10:09

but also speaking that

10:11

when we're in a one-on-one situation with someone

10:13

, suddenly you know we might

10:15

be channeling our inner Ben Shapiro or

10:18

whatever it is or whoever your

10:21

demagogue of choice . And

10:23

that's not great , is it ? Do

10:25

you find yourself trying to just listen to less

10:28

? A bit , barry .

10:29

I think that's a really good point . We're

10:31

very good , aren't we ? Just ingesting lots

10:33

of information , and I think , in the internet age

10:35

, with smartphones , of course , with constant notifications

10:38

we've been very much trained

10:40

to be like that , and I think you're

10:42

exactly right it doesn't really leave much

10:44

room for processing , sifting , evaluating

10:47

, meditating upon . I think

10:49

that's all . I think that's . That's absolutely

10:51

right .

10:54

Cobra and Carrie have

10:56

words .

11:05

It is interesting that , reading on

11:07

a little bit the metaphor

11:10

that James uses , he

11:12

says he looks at he's talking about

11:14

a man who's a hero but not a doer . He

11:17

says he looks at himself and goes away

11:19

and at once forgets what he was like . So

11:23

that's , that's a picture of somebody

11:25

who kind of gets information

11:27

about themselves but then immediately it's

11:30

kind of gone , it's not allowed

11:32

to really settle , and I think

11:34

that's exactly what you're

11:36

talking about really Pun intended

11:38

.

11:39

There is no period of reflection . Yes

11:42

, exactly right in this

11:44

metaphor , you're not looking in the mirror to

11:46

see if you look all right . You

11:49

don't look all right . That's a given

11:52

. And therefore , if you're reading

11:54

God's word and you're not

11:56

doing it , if you're not compelled to take action

11:59

, you're not looking , you're not

12:01

reading , you're not listening , you're not hearing

12:03

. I think that

12:05

might be the sense of that image

12:08

that's going on there . So in a way are

12:10

you know if , if we're actually

12:12

listening to it , it

12:14

should stir up in us thoughts

12:16

and ideas ? And

12:19

the yeah , the point

12:21

that I made in my talk was uh

12:24

, we're quick to listen and slow to

12:26

speak , and the reason I think James says that

12:28

is because , once you're speaking

12:31

, the listening is now over

12:33

and

12:35

you want to be very careful that you

12:37

haven't overlooked what they're actually

12:39

saying or even worked

12:42

out why they're saying what they're saying and that

12:44

what they're saying isn't actually quite

12:46

what they mean . There's

12:48

some subtext going on here .

12:50

I remember reading a biography of Stanley Kubrick

12:52

years and years ago , and the quote that I remember

12:54

underlining a zillion times , as

12:57

which he just said in passing he said there's

13:00

a way . Kubrick said there's a way

13:02

of talking about problems

13:30

which makes you feel like you've solved them . And

13:34

I think there's something of that in this whole

13:36

question of listening . We can , we

13:38

can listen to God's

13:40

word and be so full of the data

13:42

that we think

13:45

we are going great

13:47

guns in the Christian life , but

13:49

we haven't actually acted on it

13:51

and therefore our maturity is not there . And

13:54

I hate to draw your attention to this , but

13:56

in the Pilgrims progress James , there's

13:58

a character called Trigger warning . Yeah

14:01

, trigger warning . There's

14:03

a character called talkative . See if you can have

14:05

a guess of what he's like . Anyway

14:07

, talkative is

14:09

somebody who knows all

14:11

of the theology , like he's a terrific

14:14

evangelist . He understands the need for the new

14:16

birth , he understands the gospel , the need

14:18

for repentance , you name it , but

14:21

he hasn't

14:23

acted on it . And so the really scary

14:25

thing about that character , talkative , of course , is that

14:27

he talks a really good fight , he's convinced

14:29

of his own spiritual security

14:31

, but the

14:34

text makes it very clear that he is heading

14:37

on the path to damnation . So

14:40

I think that might be a particular danger

14:42

actually for reformed guys and girls

14:44

and let's face it , I really mean guys here

14:46

because we love to accumulate information that

14:49

we really are so big on the theology

14:51

. Theologies are really important , caviar , but

14:55

we spend so much time talking about it and batting

14:57

it around and stroking our beards

14:59

that we don't actually do it . So

15:01

there's a way of

15:04

talking about theology which

15:06

is not actually making any

15:08

difference to us at all . Do you think that's fair ?

15:11

Oh , totally yeah . And

15:14

we've all read Bible

15:16

commentaries by non-Christians

15:18

which

15:20

don't seem to take the text seriously

15:23

at all . It just seems to be commentary . It just

15:25

seems to be literally commentary . There's

15:28

nothing . And good commentaries do give you the comment

15:30

and that's fine . But actually a really good Christian

15:32

commentary does really make your heart sing

15:34

and does make you want to change

15:36

something in your life and

15:39

that's really important . I mean , it

15:42

is hard , isn't it ? Especially if you're called to a

15:44

theological ministry where you do

15:46

need to deep dive and do this

15:48

stuff . But actually and I

15:51

think that maybe is also where those

15:53

warning signs for going back to that

15:56

Ravi Zacharias incident that

15:58

someone who was talking , talking

16:00

, talking , talking on a stage , talking

16:02

, talking , talking he wasn't actually

16:04

sitting under the preaching

16:06

of the word in a church that

16:09

was then challenging him on the doing .

16:11

And once we found out what he was doing

16:14

it wasn't pretty . Can't

16:24

you make them understand ?

16:26

They wouldn't listen to me , they're pretty mad .

16:29

Then I'll talk to them myself .

16:32

You also drew attention to when we were

16:34

talking about this before , and I think this is

16:36

obviously a connection here . Jesus is parable

16:38

of the soil sometimes , but

16:42

it's really about the soils , isn't it ? Rather than the sower in

16:45

Mark , chapter four . What do you

16:47

think ?

16:48

I don't know . I've just read a really good

16:50

commentary on this . I'm marching my

16:52

way slowly through Mark's Gospel

16:54

with the . Pillar New Testament commentary on it . It's

16:57

really helpful , by a guy called Edwards , I think

16:59

, and what

17:02

struck me the first time on this and we'll get

17:05

onto the listening in a moment . What's

17:08

surprising that you sort of

17:10

don't even notice is why is

17:12

the farmer scattering seeds on the path

17:14

and stony ground and among

17:17

the thorns ? What's he doing

17:19

? Why is he doing that ? You don't have enough seeds to

17:21

do that . This

17:24

is a profligate sower

17:26

of seeds .

17:28

Right .

17:30

And what I mean by that is in

17:32

the first century AD . You

17:35

need to sow a field .

17:36

You had piles through that .

17:37

Yeah , you're keeping back some crop from the

17:39

last year and then you're sowing it . So

17:42

this commentary makes the argument partly

17:44

that the first time it's said

17:47

before the parable is then explained

17:49

, because it almost seems to shift slightly

17:51

between the telling and the explanation as well

17:53

. But the profligacy of the farmer

17:55

sowing the seed is almost like Jesus

17:58

just doing all this

18:00

stuff in his earthly ministry . He's

18:02

healing the sick , he's driving out demons

18:04

quite a lot and

18:06

he's teaching and people aren't really

18:08

getting it and it looks like he's kind of wasting

18:11

his time . What are you doing ? So

18:13

I think there's a sense in which the

18:15

sower is slightly more significant

18:17

than I had previously thought

18:20

, and I thought that was

18:22

quite an interesting observation which I throw

18:25

in as a bit of a sidebar have you

18:27

noticed that before .

18:28

Yeah , well , I do think there's an obvious parallel

18:31

there isn't there to the nature of Christ's ministry

18:33

, that the Gospels constantly draw

18:35

attention to his

18:38

audiences and how mixed they are , you

18:41

know , when there's a transition between talking to the

18:43

crowd at large and

18:45

talking to the disciples . So there's

18:47

an obvious parallel there isn't there between the

18:49

sowing of the seed just everywhere . In a profligate

18:52

way , he's speaking to those who

18:54

presumably he knows will come to him

18:56

, but he's also speaking to those , inevitably

18:58

because they're all mixed together in the same crowd , who

19:02

will not . And

19:04

the parable itself is , obviously , when

19:07

he's explaining it to the disciples , he specifically

19:10

draws attention to the fact that he's

19:12

speaking in parables , so that we'll

19:14

get into this . I'm sure that they may indeed

19:17

see but not perceive , and may indeed

19:19

hear but not understand , lest they should turn and be forgiven

19:21

. So there's an awareness that there

19:23

will be people who listen , who don't

19:25

actually hear , and

19:27

act on it .

19:30

And I think that's quite a common theme

19:32

in Mark . I'm learning and you would know you've written a Christian

19:34

Explore course based on Mark but

19:37

the

19:39

crowd is gathering in that

19:41

first half of Mark in particular . But the

19:43

crowd don't seem to be . They're

19:45

kind of more gawping and

19:48

they're following , but they're not really listening

19:50

. And as Jesus

19:52

gathers his disciples who

19:54

are a very , very unlikely bunch , if

19:57

we're honest mostly Galilean

20:00

fishermen they're not

20:02

the dream team if you were picking teams , but

20:08

he works with them in a particular way , and

20:11

so it sounds like it's not really fair

20:13

that Jesus is telling

20:16

these people what it really means , and all the bozos out

20:18

there aren't really listening . But

20:21

there's something about listening

20:23

, isn't it ? And so that whole section ends after

20:26

the light on a lampstand . Stuff . Mark

20:29

24 , Mark 4, . Consider carefully

20:31

what you hear . He

20:34

continued with the measure you use

20:36

. It will be measured to you , and

20:39

even more . Whoever has

20:41

will be given more , and

20:43

whoever does not have , even

20:46

what they have will be taken from

20:48

them . And again , we find that

20:50

so troubling and difficult

20:52

. We get that in a parable , in one of the Gospels too

20:54

, doesn't it ? Take his talent

20:56

and give it to the one who has five . What

20:59

, what are you doing

21:01

? That's not

21:04

very Christian , but what that parable

21:06

is , I guess , showing as well , is that this

21:08

person doesn't know , isn't

21:10

interested in handling what

21:13

he has , and some of that

21:15

is the listening to

21:17

Jesus and making the most of

21:19

it , leaning into it , puzzling on it

21:21

, thinking about it and then going back for

21:23

more . I think .

21:26

Yeah , I think that's exactly it . I think the reason why

21:28

Jesus teaches in parables is because

21:30

he doesn't want people to

21:32

just come at it his teaching at a superficial

21:35

level . He doesn't want the

21:37

guy saying , come on , come on , just give me the bullet points , then

21:39

I can get on with my life . It's specifically

21:41

couched in such a way that it positively

21:44

, not only does it reward

21:46

deeper reflection these parables that were

21:48

still puzzling over 2,000 years later but

21:51

it positively demands it . And

21:54

when you think about the initial audience

21:56

, they're only hearing this once

21:58

. They don't have notes to refer to afterwards . So

22:01

Jesus' injunction to listen . I mean

22:03

you probably noticed this . It's

22:06

actually it bookends the parable . He

22:08

starts in verse 3 by saying listen

22:10

and then at the end , in

22:12

verse 9 , he says he who has

22:14

ears to hear , let him hear . So

22:16

again and again there's this stress of listen

22:19

. You have to really concentrate

22:21

here and go deep with it . You

22:23

cannot be on autopilot . You

22:25

have to give all your bandwidth to this in order

22:27

to really take from it

22:29

what I want you to take from it .

22:32

Boy , you guys are not sucking me into the story

22:35

at all . I'm just telling you for your own benefit

22:37

. I'm very aware that I'm watching

22:39

a play right now . Whilst we're on the subject of my

22:41

sub-stack , which I guess we kind of were

22:43

, I did have a bit of a rant

22:46

back in July last year , so if you look up JamesCarriesubstackcom

22:49

, you'll find my sub-stack . I'll

22:51

put a link in the notes . But I wrote an article

22:54

called the York Notification of

22:56

Stories .

22:57

Right . So York Notes , because

22:59

I'm a bit of an age Cliff Notes we have over here .

23:01

Cliff Notes .

23:02

So yeah , it's like , just give me the Cliff

23:04

Notes . It's like , well , that's not going to work

23:06

. And so there are these services

23:08

as well that read you the

23:10

headlines of these non-fiction books , in

23:12

particular Summarizers . What's that

23:15

one called ? There's you know , I think

23:17

even Cal Newport mentions them too . What's

23:19

it called oh ?

23:21

I know exactly what you're .

23:23

They're these sort of services that just say

23:25

, hey , we'll condense everything for you because

23:27

you're , like , really busy .

23:28

Yeah , don't waste time reading books . We'll

23:31

tell you what they say .

23:32

Yeah , but as someone who's written some

23:34

books , if someone just says , just give

23:36

me the headlines , it's like , well , no , I didn't just

23:38

give you the headlines , because if I could have just given you the headlines

23:40

, I would have given you the headlines . I

23:42

didn't write 55,000 words so I could

23:44

skin you for nine quid . That's

23:47

not how it works . And also , would

23:50

you like the Cliff Notes of Pride

23:52

and Prejudice ? Or would

23:54

you like to read Pride and Prejudice

23:56

? Yeah , this whole Hamlet

23:59

thing . Just give me the gist . Yeah

24:01

, because that will be the same .

24:03

Yeah , it's , the Woody Allen joke is near

24:05

about . I did a speed reading course . I

24:08

read War and Peace . It's

24:10

about Russia . It's

24:12

like , yeah , you could certainly

24:14

get the bones of it , but it isn't going to change you , it

24:18

isn't going to go inside you . And this is where

24:20

I think we segue

24:22

, if I may , to .

24:24

Just so I found the link before you segue . I wrote

24:26

a post called Down with Executive Summaries

24:29

and that was in March of

24:31

this year . Blinklist

24:34

and Headway were in my

24:36

target on that one . I just thought , because

24:38

at one point I'm the sort of person that would sign up for that

24:40

, because , as we sort of said , I'm

24:42

auditing information all the time . Just give me

24:44

the headlines , give me the headlines .

24:46

It's like Well

24:48

, I'm going to throw a little wrinkle in here and say that maybe

24:50

there are some books where actually it's entirely

24:52

appropriate to boil them down

24:54

, because the person who wrote it is simply in the business

24:57

of imparting information . They have no

24:59

styles to speak of , there is no deep

25:01

wisdom to speak of . It's

25:03

not a Christian parable

25:06

, it's a Whatever

25:08

it is . It's a management consultancy type

25:10

deal and a lot of those are , I think , pretty shallow

25:12

and you could probably just get the bones of it and be on

25:15

your way . But , as you say , if

25:17

we're talking about pride and prejudice , I don't

25:19

know . Yes , I think in the sense , sometimes

25:21

, even when it's incredibly shallow , just the fact

25:24

that it's taking you time to read

25:26

it is helpful , like

25:28

I get that it slows you down but also they

25:30

will have illustrations .

25:31

They will explain to you firstly

25:33

why you need to know this information

25:36

. Then they will give you the information

25:38

, they will illustrate the information and

25:41

then they will summarize it and maybe apply it . And

25:45

so you're just kind of missing out and , in a way , if

25:47

you want to get an executive summary of something and I've

25:49

read executive summaries of very

25:51

long Church of England reports that are 170

25:53

pages , and I'll just read the executive summary , that's only

25:56

33 pages or whatever

25:58

, and it means that I can now , if

26:00

I'm interested in a particular thing , I'll go and look for it

26:02

in the overall report

26:04

, but that's but

26:08

it is a bit of a both-and I

26:10

just think that's fair and

26:12

I think the segue

26:15

I was going to talk about here is it's

26:17

very interesting that God's maybe you guys

26:20

will get into this when you're doing the mouth in

26:22

your sermon series but

26:24

it's very interesting that the metaphor

26:27

that's being used for really

26:29

hearing God's

26:31

word so that you act on it is

26:34

eat it .

26:36

Eat God's word . So the

26:38

metaphor is God's word . Is honey

26:41

Sweeter than honey , than

26:43

honey from the honeycomb that swamps on 19

26:45

? How sweet are your words

26:47

? Words to my taste sweeter

26:50

than honey to my mouth . I II

26:52

, god's

26:55

word , is meant to be Internalized

26:58

. It's meant to become a part of you , like

27:00

food , so that it changes

27:02

you . You don't benefit

27:04

from food if all you do is look at

27:07

it , admire it , maybe just roll

27:09

it around on your tongue and then spit it out . Discussing

27:12

it is not enough . You have to

27:14

swallow it and that sort of takes

27:17

. The mastic Asian takes time . The

27:19

swallowing takes time . Yeah , like it

27:21

, you know it becoming a part of you . And that , I

27:23

think , is partly why Jesus instituted

27:25

the Lord supper as a sacrament . He

27:28

didn't just say remember that

27:30

this happened . Yeah , he's saying here

27:33

, here is food , here's a cup his

27:35

bread , you eat it , hmm

27:37

, and you take it in deep inside yourself

27:39

. What is that except a profound metaphor

27:42

about what Jesus wants us

27:44

to do with him , which is to To

27:47

believe in him in such a way that he

27:50

enters into us by his spirit

27:52

and changes us the way that food

27:54

changes us ? You know , there's a , there's something profound

27:57

that's happening there which I think makes bread

27:59

and wine , you know , particularly appropriate food

28:01

as appropriate as a metaphor .

28:03

Yeah , think , yeah , I think that's really helpful

28:05

. I think , therefore , if we're treating Scripture

28:08

as something to be decoded

28:11

and then mastered , and

28:14

then sort of your your

28:16

cliff noted as it , were Hurgitated . Yeah

28:18

, yeah then that really

28:20

isn't what it's for , and actually this is another

28:23

point I make is that

28:25

we should therefore listen to

28:27

God's word , and

28:29

the most normal way of

28:31

doing that , historically speaking over

28:33

the last 2000 years , is through

28:35

our ears . So affordable

28:38

, disposable Bibles are

28:41

Pretty recent , because , although

28:43

printing was invented in the 1500s , paper

28:46

was still quite expensive for quite a long

28:48

time , and even into the 1800s

28:50

you might have a family Bible which

28:52

probably cost several hundred pounds in

28:55

in that money that you would then pass

28:57

down through the generations and somebody

28:59

would read from it and you would listen

29:01

to it . So the art

29:03

, so having it on your phone and

29:05

, of course , in some cut , in some cultures , the

29:09

Bible is still being translated into People

29:12

with , into cultures that don't have it

29:14

in their original language . Yeah

29:17

, so we we really

29:19

mustn't take this for granted

29:21

, that we've got it written down . That's again

29:24

quite a new thing .

29:25

It can kind of make it seem less precious content

29:27

that the ubiquity of it . Yeah

29:29

, I think this is . I think this is one of the reasons why people

29:32

get obsessed with vinyl . Now there's no real

29:34

reason for using vinyl . I was

29:36

really Inconvenient to get

29:38

it get scratched and dusty . You got to pull it out the sleeve

29:40

, put it down , but the stylus on which is very finicky

29:43

. But whenever I hear people talking

29:45

about why they do this , why they're obsessed with vinyl

29:47

, it is the whole Experience

29:50

means that in doing this you're really focused

29:52

on the album as a whole . The journey is a whole from

29:54

start to finish , whereas in a digital Spotify

29:57

, apple Music world it's

29:59

kind of all about the singles and it's very

30:01

atomized and you

30:04

don't get that's . Not only do you not get the lovely

30:06

big artwork and the sleeve notes

30:08

and all the rest of it , but you just don't sit

30:10

there typically for 45 minutes and give

30:12

your attention to a single album . It's

30:15

like , just listen to , I'm gonna make my own mix

30:17

tape of stuff that I'm grabbing from all over the place . Yeah

30:20

, and it's quite . I can I

30:22

get why people like vinyl .

30:23

For that reason , yeah , yeah , I think

30:25

that's really interesting parallel as well , because

30:27

I I use music

30:30

when I'm working , but I'll listen to an Apple

30:32

Music playlist like

30:34

Beat Strummental , where

30:36

every track on it sounds relatively

30:40

similar to the one before . Yeah

30:42

, I've not heard of any of the artists and

30:44

I couldn't tell you what any of the songs are . The

30:47

artists all have odd names , the songs all

30:49

have fairly arbitrary names , and

30:51

so therefore I'm

30:53

not really listening to that music

30:56

. It's just something that's on

30:58

, and the worry is that we

31:00

, if we treat God's word like that oh

31:03

, I just like to have it on in the background . Yeah

31:05

, that's right .

31:06

It's like oh .

31:08

Pretty sure .

31:08

James didn't want that .

31:10

Yeah , yeah . So I

31:12

think what I'm hearing you say , james , it's

31:15

quite a good thing to say in conversation , isn't

31:17

? It very good , very good . Um , there's

31:20

listening and there's listening

31:22

. There's chess , there's

31:24

a game of chess Language

31:27

, and their speech and there's speech .

31:29

That's right ? Um , there's , there's chess

31:31

and there's a game of chess

31:33

.

31:36

There's a biblical sense of listen

31:38

and it actually the ESP is interesting . That

31:40

translates James chapter 1 , verse

31:43

19 Be quick to hear

31:45

rather than listen . And I think even

31:47

in English it slightly captures

31:49

the difference between listening to something

31:52

and really hearing something . The

31:54

listening is just okay , this is information going

31:57

in , but it's like it's just on in the background

31:59

and the hearing is alright

32:01

. I'm really taking this in and it's it's

32:04

changing me in some way and I'm now acting

32:06

on what I am hearing

32:08

, and I think that is a distinction

32:11

which Scripture makes again

32:14

and again , isn't it ? There's there's a difference

32:16

between listening and hearing

32:18

, just listening and and

32:21

doing .

32:21

You know yeah , I mean , for me it's slightly the

32:23

other way around . I think hearing something

32:25

is not listening , I think you're not listening to me

32:28

, as in you're hearing the words as I'm saying , but you're

32:30

not listening . Yeah , the words mean . So

32:32

I'm not convinced that one or other is necessarily

32:34

the granular version

32:36

of the general

32:38

version , but

32:41

I and that's what I'm hearing , I

32:43

don't know if that is that what you're not

32:45

saying , that add a sort of a Greek or Hebrew

32:47

level .

32:48

It necessarily means two things , I think .

32:50

But I do know there's a difference .

32:52

Yeah , and I think the way they've tried to translate

32:54

it , I don't know be interesting to see how most people

32:56

would Understand the word listen

32:58

and the word here . But you're right , listen . When

33:00

you're talking to children , you do say no , no , no , no , listen

33:02

, look at me , listen , listen , yeah , so

33:05

yeah , and they're sort of struggling and trying to get

33:07

over and reach the chocolate biscuit or one of that , and

33:09

they're just , they're not taking it in . Yeah

33:12

quite .

33:12

This puts me in mind of One

33:15

of the more positive experiences I've had at

33:17

the general synod of the Church of England During

33:20

these exercises where we were , where

33:22

we don't actually look at the Bible to understand

33:25

human sexuality Because it still says what

33:27

it's always says and it's it's pretty clear and

33:29

we can keep checking back to see if

33:32

it's changed . No , it's the same . Yeah

33:34

, but we can now try and pretend that it's not

33:37

clear . But one of the things that we did

33:39

do which I thought was really helpful is

33:41

we were in split up into groups

33:43

and then to smaller groups in a three and

33:46

you

33:48

the . The lesson was to say how you felt

33:50

about this exercise . There was an awful lot of how

33:53

do you feel about this , how are you feeling

33:55

about this ? Okay , how do you think that went

33:57

? Oh , oh , was that it ? We

33:59

didn't , oh , we didn't Talk

34:02

about it . We just talked about how worried we are

34:04

about talking about it and then reflected on how we

34:06

felt about it , but so

34:08

in a way that the actual exercise itself was

34:11

was not helpful generally . But there's one

34:13

thing where they said what you have to do

34:15

is you have to listen to

34:17

this person , say how

34:20

they feel about it and then

34:22

summarize it back to them to

34:24

show that they are happy With

34:26

your , that you've understood what

34:29

they're saying . It's I did . It's

34:31

called active listening or something like that . So I

34:33

would you know . So I would say it's very frustrating

34:35

to me that we're trying to talk

34:38

about human sexuality when the Bible

34:40

to me seems extremely clear and Blah

34:43

, blah , blah , blah and someone say James is

34:45

Is very sure

34:47

that the Bible is very clear on this

34:50

and so they , whether they agree with me or not , they're

34:52

just trying to Highly . And

34:54

I would say to somebody this person doesn't understand

34:56

why we're having

34:58

this discussion when , for her , if the church teaches

35:01

this , then this is something that the church

35:03

should believe and that the laity are

35:05

not really meant to be questioning . I was , I

35:07

became quite good friends with that , with a fairly high

35:09

Angler Catholic at the time , and actually she

35:11

was , you know , delightful and we had an awful lot in

35:13

common . But it

35:16

was a really interesting exercise to do that and it's

35:18

it's not just steel manning , which I

35:20

think is another good habit that people now say

35:22

about giving the best version of an opponent's

35:24

case . But just to say , have I

35:26

understood you correctly ? Can I just

35:29

summarize back to you what

35:31

you've said to me just to make sure that I've

35:33

heard it before I respond to it

35:35

now , that takes time and people don't want to do

35:37

it , and also it might be more challenging

35:40

to do that because you then have to understand

35:42

, yeah , what they're saying . But

35:44

can you ? Have you ever had to do that kind of thing ?

35:46

Yeah , and I think it's really good practice

35:48

. I mean , given the noetic effects of

35:50

sin , that it sin effects not

35:53

only the way we no etic no

35:55

etic you want .

35:56

For me , that is the word of the podcast .

35:58

No way we go no etic , which , if I'm on

36:00

, if I'm understanding that right , means

36:03

you know that sin affects every part

36:05

of us , including the way that we kind of intellectually

36:07

process things with our minds . So

36:09

, yes , the way that we listen

36:11

is affected by sin , the way that we

36:14

then articulate ourselves affected by sin . So I think

36:16

anything we can put in

36:18

there to try and alleviate

36:21

or minimize the effects of sin in communication

36:24

I think it's a great idea and

36:26

it's just good to know you've been heard , isn't it ? And just , there's

36:28

nothing worse than wasting two hours Debating with

36:30

someone . You're both talking past each other . It's

36:32

just it's just doesn't serve anybody . So

36:35

yeah , I think that is . I think that is a good thing

36:37

to do .

36:41

Something just came to mind . It's something that I'm talking

36:43

to some guys about tonight

36:46

and , and you

36:48

know , when you you look into a passage

36:51

and again , just backing up

36:53

once more , sometimes we get we get angry

36:55

with God that the Bible is not clear , or

36:57

we get angry with God because of what he's like

36:59

, because we haven't actually read what it says

37:02

, we haven't actually listened to what he is

37:04

like , and so we know what on earth am I

37:06

supposed to do ? And so I

37:08

had that very briefly , with Jesus's

37:10

arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane in Mark

37:12

14 and and so

37:15

. I've . I've got a little idea

37:17

for a , for a book or something possibly

37:19

called running away naked , based

37:22

on , potentially , mark , who

37:24

is the Person following Jesus

37:26

who is grabbed by his linen

37:28

as Jesus is arrested and

37:31

he leaves the linen behind and runs away naked

37:33

, and it's a wonderful sort

37:36

of illustration of cowardness

37:38

and all of the

37:40

worst things that I think particularly men are

37:42

frightened of . That . That's going

37:44

to be them , and

37:46

the flip side of that is the disciple who

37:48

we later learn is Peter in the other Gospels , but Mark

37:51

doesn't name him as the one who

37:53

you know right , yanks out a

37:55

sword and slices off a servant's

37:57

ear . And it

37:59

was only when I was talking to my kids about it this morning . I

38:02

I said Well

38:04

, what was he supposed to do ? So

38:07

the guy with the sword is thinking well , I'm not having

38:10

this , he's got a sword , he's going to use it . You're

38:12

not arresting Jesus . That's wrong . And

38:15

just thinking . And again , as I often

38:17

say , what was Adam supposed to do in

38:19

the Garden of Eden With

38:21

the when the snake comes ? But

38:24

on this particular instance I was thinking I Don't

38:27

know , how am I supposed to know ? I don't know

38:29

. And then I realized what he probably

38:31

should have done ? He

38:34

should have listened to Jesus .

38:36

Hmm .

38:37

He should have said what do you

38:39

want me to do , rather

38:41

than I'm going to almost kill

38:44

someone . You know , if you cut off someone's ear

38:46

, you're going for the head . I mean , that's that's a kill

38:48

shot , isn't it ?

38:48

That's not , I know I should very carefully

38:51

Like one of the three musketeers

38:53

you know , sort of whisk off

38:55

their ear and threaten See like

38:57

it's the princess bride .

38:58

No , I'll start with your ears and I'll tell you why

39:01

. You know , whatever it is .

39:02

Do you think that's significant ? It's just funny . Interesting

39:04

all this chat about listening and hearing . Yeah

39:07

he takes off an ear . I mean , I just wonder

39:09

whether we're talking about how Peter should have reacted

39:11

. But how should the high priest servant have

39:13

reacted ? Well , should have listened to Jesus

39:15

, shouldn't he ? And as a result

39:18

of not listening Jesus , well , sorry , we're even

39:20

. That's going to be taken from you .

39:21

Yeah , off comes his ear , you know off comes an ear

39:23

, although Jesus in John puts it

39:25

back . Yes yes

39:27

, yes , but yeah , no , that's interesting , isn't it

39:29

? Of all the , of all the things , it's , it's an

39:31

ear .

39:32

Yeah , he's that is sliced off and

39:35

you could .

39:35

But you can imagine it sort of sort of sitting there

39:37

on the ground and then he gets another one . Just

39:39

imagine looking at your discarded

39:42

ear but knowing that you've got another

39:44

one , and what are you gonna do ? You know that's something for

39:46

the kids , isn't it ?

39:49

That's right .

39:50

That's why God gave you two .

39:52

Yes exactly in

39:54

case , in case Peter cuts one off

39:56

. Yeah , it's one of those ones where you

39:58

think , well , what were the disciples meant

40:01

to do ? Yeah , and actually Ask

40:04

Jesus , listen to the answer

40:06

and then do it , because

40:08

he's got this , and that is something

40:10

that we're not prepared to do , and so I think sometimes

40:12

we get frustrated with the Bible because

40:15

it doesn't say what we would like it to

40:17

say , yeah , or it doesn't say in a

40:19

way that we would like it to say it , or

40:21

why isn't it clearer ? Or why

40:23

is this genealogy here ? Why

40:25

is this interminable list of things ? Why

40:27

is the second half of Joshua so incredibly

40:29

boring ? And , before you know it , we're

40:32

now angry with God . We're

40:34

slow to listen to his word , we're

40:36

quick to speak back to him

40:38

, and now we're angry , and I

40:42

would recommend that you don't get angry with God

40:44

. I don't think that's a good . I

40:46

don't think that's a good look , and it's interesting . No good can

40:48

come from that yeah and it's and I love

40:50

how James says essentially Not

40:53

essentially he does say Because

40:56

human anger does not produce the righteousness

40:58

that God desires . Hmm and

41:01

I know our mutual friends Bran Hansen . He

41:03

essentially says yeah , this whole righteous

41:05

anger , Hmm

41:08

, you keep using that word .

41:09

I don't think it's as righteous as you think it is . Yeah

41:12

.

41:13

He didn't follow . Inconceivable

41:16

. You keep using the word

41:18

. I don't think it means what you think

41:20

it means .

41:21

And the other application that

41:23

occurred to me as you were speaking is that Peter

41:26

says doesn't he have Paul's teaching ? He

41:28

does say some things that are hard to understand . Hmm

41:31

, okay , why

41:33

Supposed to be God's word ? Why

41:36

doesn't God just tell people what he wants

41:38

them to do in , you know

41:40

, words of one syllable ? So

41:42

we all get it . Why the difficult

41:45

stuff ? And I think the answer

41:47

to that is that

41:50

we're meant to wrestle with it . And

41:52

again we're back to the parables thing . God

41:55

communicates to us in such a

41:57

way that we can't go great , thanks

41:59

for the propositions . I'll run off . I'll just run with that

42:01

. I don't really need to think about this . He

42:04

deliberately writes in such

42:06

a way that we have to make

42:09

like Jacob and wrestle with

42:11

it . And in wrestling

42:13

with it , yes , it's going to put our hip

42:15

out of joint , but that's the point . It's

42:18

been written like that so that it slows

42:21

us down in our natural sin

42:23

and our worldliness , so

42:25

that we have to internalize it , so that we

42:27

have to eat it slowly , because

42:30

that's the only way it's going to change

42:32

us . So I think the , the elogist talk about

42:34

the perspicacity of scripture . That it's , you

42:37

know , it's meant to be easy to understand . Well

42:39

, scripture itself does say that bits of it are

42:41

hard to understand , and that is by

42:43

design .

42:44

Yeah , it's a feature , it's

42:47

not a bug .

42:48

Yeah .

42:48

Yeah , I'll put it

42:50

up for the Patreons , because

42:52

I wrote something at the Keswick Convention

42:55

which is about people

42:58

in parables being relatively unhappy with

43:01

how they've been treated , and

43:04

but the overall point of that

43:06

, which people found intently , hopefully , amusing

43:08

, was that the

43:10

fact that these parables are strange

43:13

and troubling and difficult to understand means

43:16

that we're just going to keep coming back to them time after

43:18

time and that they are just

43:20

like the good wine is the stuff that

43:22

actually doesn't taste , maybe

43:25

so good the first time you have it , or once

43:27

you develop a taste for something , then suddenly there

43:29

are extra things , and that's the case whether it's

43:31

due with a single malt whiskey , or

43:33

whether you're into all

43:35

different types of food or cured meats

43:38

, or it's an acquired

43:40

taste . It's an acquired taste and

43:44

I think that's a good thing , and there's a perfectly

43:47

good moment to have a glug

43:49

of something that you like and it tastes good straight away

43:51

. But actually you get bored of that , and

43:55

so I think again . Maybe

43:58

scripture isn't as perspicacious

44:01

as it could be . Maybe that's another

44:03

word of the podcast . It's more like

44:05

perspex than glass

44:07

, because it's something that

44:09

you are pro

44:12

, that you have been made to live

44:14

with for your entire life . So

44:17

we've not been given 60 pages

44:19

that you've pretty much nailed by

44:22

your mid 20s or into your 30s

44:24

. This is a long and

44:26

complicated library

44:28

of books , and the more I read

44:30

and think , the more I

44:32

think oh , this connects to that or does it

44:34

, I don't know . It's sort of connects in a way

44:36

and it sort of doesn't . As I was reading

44:39

the Gethsemane moment

44:41

, I was thinking , oh , it feels

44:43

like the Garden of Eden here

44:45

because there's a temptation

44:48

that Jesus is the second Adam , and he could

44:50

use his power to defeat these

44:52

people , but he doesn't . There's a kiss

44:54

. There's nakedness at

44:57

the end . I couldn't

44:59

put my finger on

45:01

exactly .

45:02

Well , jesus obeys the Father where Adam

45:04

does not obey the Father . Yeah , yeah

45:06

.

45:07

There's no one slam dunk bit of

45:09

. Oh , this is obviously that which

45:12

you do get in other passages where it's like , well , okay

45:14

. This is one the other day about reading

45:16

in Esther , where it just

45:18

is exactly like the death of John the Baptist , where

45:21

Herod says I will give you anything

45:23

up to half of my kingdom , and it's like , oh , okay

45:25

. So sometimes you do get those

45:27

big clanging things , although

45:29

most of these we don't know because we

45:31

don't know our Bibles , because we don't read

45:34

them and we don't listen to them . And

45:36

maybe that's one last thing

45:39

to think about is the

45:41

Bible is available in audio . It's

45:44

free on the ESV app , read

45:46

by two different people

45:48

a North American man and

45:50

a Northern Irish woman who I think is

45:52

Christine Getty , and

45:56

there's other , like other Bible

45:58

apps . You can get John Sushé reading

46:00

it , although I think we all have

46:03

read it like Poirot ? Why

46:06

? Why don't we listen to the Bible

46:09

?

46:10

Well , if you get speechify which I have

46:12

you can have the whole Bible read to you

46:14

in the voice of Snoop Dogg

46:16

. So there's really no excuse

46:19

, is there no excuse

46:21

?

46:21

I would like it read in the voice of Rowan Atkinson

46:24

, and then I'd remember . I've often jokes

46:26

in the past .

46:27

If you get him to say Zerubbable , then

46:30

I'm all in and

46:32

now I could , and I get Rowan Atkinson because

46:34

of AI .

46:35

Oh wow , this is a whole new . This is a whole

46:37

new era in my life , potentially .

46:39

Yeah , wasn't it Whitfield

46:41

who was said , I think , by

46:43

Benjamin Franklin , to

46:47

be able to pronounce a

46:49

particular word in such a way that

46:51

Benjamin Franklin said he would just

46:53

give everything to be able to

46:55

speak , as he did , just said a single

46:57

word . It was something like Zerubbable . One of our

46:59

listeners will remind me of what it is .

47:01

Or Zerubbable or something Exactly

47:03

it's something like that . Yeah , but

47:06

why don't we want to do it ? Why , well

47:08

?

47:08

I think it's a bit .

47:10

We love the word and audio junkies like me and

47:12

frankly , probably half a listeners of this podcast

47:14

, if not most of them . Yeah , do

47:17

you want to listen to actual gods inspired

47:19

and inerrant word read ? Really well

47:22

, no , thanks , I'll

47:24

listen to some demagogue . Make

47:26

me feel good about why

47:28

I don't like certain groups of people .

47:30

Yeah , I think the answer

47:33

is in your question there , isn't it James ?

47:35

We are awful people , that's why

47:37

?

47:37

Well no , it just it makes me feel

47:39

good . I mean that's the thing , isn't it ? And I

47:42

think the problem . I mean it's like we

47:44

don't really want to go to the gym because it's

47:46

hard work . I think the Bible's a bit like

47:48

that .

47:49

And we don't want to look in the mirror , yeah

47:51

.

47:52

At the very least , like

47:54

I'll go to the gym

47:57

and maybe I'll sort of hang around a bit

47:59

and go to the calf or whatever . But actually

48:01

drawing a sweat , you

48:04

know , heaven forbid , but that .

48:06

I can work up a sweat in the sauna , so I'll

48:08

do that . I'll love it .

48:09

Go in the plunge pool or whatever , bubble around a bit . But

48:12

that's the thing , isn't it ? I think God's word has

48:14

been written to make us sweat in lots of

48:16

different ways . These are the heavy

48:18

weights we have to lift if we want

48:20

our muscles to get bigger , but most of

48:22

us are just like people who want to get fit

48:24

without going to the gym . Yeah , it's

48:26

just no good .

48:27

Yeah , yeah , yeah .

48:29

It's Mesopotamia , it's Mesopotamia

48:31

, that's the word , oh .

48:32

OK , oh interesting .

48:33

Yeah , looking for a refreshing

48:35

summer cocktail , why

48:38

not try a Cooper and Carey ? Simply

48:41

mix one ounce of middle-aged

48:43

regret , a squeeze of barely-contained

48:46

cynicism and a shot of predestination

48:49

. But please enjoy

48:51

responsibly .

48:55

This reminded me of the CS Lewis thing about

48:58

nobody really wants to read Plato . They just want

49:00

to read what people have said about Plato . And

49:03

he says it's just as easy to read Plato . You've

49:05

already got Plato , just do the Plato . Yeah

49:09

, and it's true , isn't it you ?

49:10

already have Plato .

49:12

Come on , just do it . It was

49:14

said that George Whitfield could utter the word

49:16

Mesopotamia . It says here , so

49:19

that the entire crowd wept . That

49:22

would be good , wouldn't it ? Does that sound credible ? I

49:24

suppose it is . If the Holy Spirit's involved , let's

49:26

face it .

49:27

You would have to be to make people weep at the word

49:29

Mesopotamia . What a bizarre word to

49:32

use .

49:35

Can you think of a single word that you would say ? If you wanted

49:37

to make an entire crowd weep ? What

49:40

would the word be ? Taco

49:42

Bell is two words . That's not .

49:45

Good evening . Oh no , not him yeah

49:48

that's right , it's me . It's

49:51

me . Yeah , that's right Welcome

49:54

.

49:55

Folks , we're going to natter a bit more

49:57

for the benefit of our esteemed Patreon

50:00

supporters and Cooper and Kerry Plus listeners

50:03

. If you want to get in on that and come

50:05

on , why wouldn't you hit

50:07

the subscribe button in Apple Podcasts

50:09

or go to Cooper

50:12

and Kerry Patreon ? We'll put a link in the show notes and

50:15

for a really small and reasonable

50:17

fee you can enjoy that and our Discord

50:19

server and extended episodes and advanced

50:22

episodes and all sorts of good stuff .

50:24

And my extra bonus content

50:26

of that parable that I wrote oh yeah , of

50:28

that thing that I wrote about parables which is not available

50:31

anywhere else and I'm not going to sub-stack

50:33

it . So there it is .

50:35

There's a CNC exclusive , so get on that If

50:37

you just want to . You

50:39

don't want to mess around with all of that , but you do want

50:41

to berate us soundly . You

50:43

can email us kuperankerryatgmailcom

50:46

. We'd be happy to read . We do always read

50:48

it . We don't always get to answering

50:50

, do we James , but we certainly do read . So

50:53

thank you if you do do that .

50:55

Yes , we don't get so many emails that

50:57

we just can't possibly read all of them , but

50:59

we don't answer all of them , but we do answer

51:01

most of them .

51:03

Yes , one way or the other .

51:04

And people give us good suggestions for podcast

51:06

episode topics and stuff as well , and

51:09

we quite often do them or take them up . Or people

51:11

say , oh , you should talk to this person , they've

51:13

got a book out about this or that . So we're totally open

51:15

to suggestions as about

51:18

what we should talk about and what you

51:20

will , in turn , listen to

51:22

.

51:23

So there we go .

51:24

He wraps it all up neatly in a bow .

51:27

Look at that glorious . We actually managed to

51:29

. Rather than crashing into the runway , we actually

51:31

sort of got the landing gear down and actually sort

51:33

of there was a nice little graze across the tarmac

51:35

there . Nice , thanks

51:38

everyone for listening and , god willing , we'll

51:40

be back with you in a couple of

51:42

weeks , or just one week , if indeed you

51:44

are one of our esteemed supporters . Love

51:46

you , bye .

51:48

It just asking me okay .