0:01

Hello and welcome .

0:01

This is Couples Counseling for Parents a

0:04

show about couple relationships , how

0:06

they work , why they don't , what you

0:08

can do to fix what's broken . Here

0:11

are our parents our dad

0:13

, dr Stephen Mitchell , and our mom

0:15

, erin Mitchell . Hello

0:18

and thanks for joining us today on Couples Counseling for Parents

0:20

. I'm Dr Stephen Mitchell .

0:21

I'm Erin Mitchell .

0:23

And we are excited to

0:25

talk about our

0:27

topic for the show . But first we

0:30

are really excited to

0:32

tell you that we have

0:34

written a book . We wrote a book , we

0:36

wrote a book and this book is called

0:38

Too Tired to Fight

0:41

, and it is the 13

0:43

essential conflicts that

0:45

parents must have to

0:47

keep their relationship strong

0:50

. So , yes , it's

0:52

a book about conflict , but

0:54

it's a book about how you can have conflict

0:56

with your partner and also

0:59

that conflict lead to connection

1:01

for the two of you . So we

1:03

are really excited . We have worked

1:05

very hard on this book .

1:07

Oh my goodness , so hard .

1:08

I have a question , yes , what ?

1:11

So we wrote a book , but I'm seriously

1:13

like , is that what you would say ? That this book is

1:15

about conflict ? When

1:17

you just said it is a book about conflict , I was like , oh

1:20

, that's not what I would say at all .

1:22

Well , I mean , I think it's what I just said . It's a

1:24

book about how conflict can

1:26

lead to connection for you and your

1:28

partner . So I think it's

1:30

the basic premise . A lot

1:33

of couples do feel just too tired to fight

1:35

, but they also feel that in their

1:37

parenting journey

1:39

they are fighting a lot . There's

1:41

a lot of conflict .

1:43

Or there's no conflict or productive conflict

1:45

.

1:45

Right , right , and basically we've

1:49

got tired , disconnected parenting

1:51

partners Right and

1:53

we're trying to present like hey

1:56

, here are 13

1:58

very , very , very , very common conflicts

2:01

and topics of

2:03

discussion in parenting

2:06

partner relationships that come up and oftentimes

2:08

cause parenting partners to feel

2:10

very disconnected , and we

2:13

want to show you how

2:15

you can turn that around .

2:16

Do you want to know what I would have said .

2:18

Sure .

2:19

What I would say .

2:20

What would you say ?

2:20

That I think that this book is about connecting to

2:23

yourself and connecting to your partner , and

2:33

we use these 13 common conflicts that derail that very , very often to sort of

2:35

model how , even in the midst of these , you can still attune

2:37

to yourself and find connection with your partner .

2:39

Yeah , I think that's what I said . It

2:42

may have been . I think that's exactly what I said .

2:44

Nonetheless , we wrote a book . Nonetheless , we wrote a book .

2:46

We wrote a book . We we

2:48

do agree about what the book is about because we

2:50

wrote it together , um , and

2:53

we maybe have different ways of explaining it , which of

2:55

course of course we would , um

2:58

, but uh , you can find

3:00

this book and you can pre-order this book

3:02

, which , honestly I'm going to be real

3:04

straightforward with

3:07

everyone Pre-orders

3:09

are massive and really , really

3:11

, really important for our book

3:14

being seen as kind

3:18

of important , and booksellers

3:20

then , based on pre-order , will

3:22

promote your book even more . And so

3:24

if you value us

3:27

, if you value this podcast , if you

3:29

value what we do on Instagram , if you have

3:31

benefited in any way from anything

3:33

that we've done , we would like

3:36

, unashamedly , we want

3:38

you to pre-order this book and support us

3:40

and help us . We want it to be a bestseller

3:42

. We want it to get on all those cool support us and help us . We want

3:45

it to be a bestseller . We want it to get on all those cool , awesome lists , and the way

3:47

that that happens is if you pre-order

3:49

it . So if you go to our website , couplescounselingforparentscom

3:57

, you can click on the book tab and pre-order it there . Or you can go to our Instagram . There's

3:59

a little highlight circle that says book . You can click on that

4:01

and order it there . Or you

4:03

can go to our LinkedIn bio on our Instagram

4:06

, click on that and there's a tab that says book

4:08

and you can pre-order it there .

4:10

You can also pre-order it anywhere . You've ever

4:12

bought a book before , true . It's already there , you

4:14

just have to Amazon Target Books A

4:16

Million . Barnes and Noble .

4:18

Barnes and Noble , all those places . So Hudson's

4:21

.

4:25

I think it is becoming more and more common for people to know that the pre-order

4:27

time is a really important time for the authors

4:29

. Um , but that is I , so I , I , more and more people

4:31

have said that like oh , this is important for you , right ? So

4:33

I think people are knowing that we didn't know that

4:36

before , though , but , um , yes , it

4:38

is an important time for us , and it would mean

4:40

so much to us .

4:41

Yes , we thank you in advance . So

4:45

Too Tired to Fight . It's out there

4:47

, it's in the universe , and

4:50

we're really proud of it .

4:51

We think it's a really good book , yeah .

4:52

It is a really good book actually , so you

4:55

should read it . I think it will help your relationship

4:58

in a very , very significant

5:00

way , and we'll be talking

5:02

a little bit more about the book . You'll probably see

5:04

a little more on our Instagram

5:06

and hear a little bit more about it here on the podcast

5:09

, but it comes

5:11

out for sale . July 9th

5:13

is its official release date

5:16

, but that won't be important to y'all , because

5:18

you will have already pre-ordered

5:20

the book and you won't have to

5:22

buy it on July 9th because

5:24

it'll just show up at your house

5:26

, that's right . Okay , yes

5:29

, so , but back to the show , thank

5:31

you . Today we

5:34

wanted to discuss something

5:36

. So you know , default

5:38

parent hot , hot

5:40

, hot topic and oftentimes

5:43

, default parent . There's

5:46

a conversation , needed conversation , very

5:48

important conversation that needs to happen , related

5:51

to division of labor

5:53

and some of the real practical

5:56

, task-oriented things

5:58

that take place in a

6:00

parenting partner relationship . But

6:02

today we wanted to focus more

6:05

on what

6:07

we might term like some of the emotional

6:10

, relational

6:12

, mental aspects

6:15

of the default parent and

6:17

how that might present itself

6:20

between parenting partners and then what

6:23

you can do to

6:26

work through that . So we have a little

6:28

case example here . We'll read it for

6:30

you and then we will kind of jump

6:32

into trying

6:34

to help Stephanie and Ryan , steph

6:36

and Rye . They're our characters

6:39

for today . Can

6:42

I call you Rye as ?

6:44

someone who goes by their full name . That's so

6:46

true , you would think .

6:47

I'm not a Steve . I'm not a Steve

6:49

. I'm a Steven . That is

6:51

true , but these aren't real people , so

6:54

I don't think that they really care , do

6:56

they ?

6:56

I don't know . Their names are written Stephanie and

6:59

Ryan .

6:59

Okay , Well , I'm not going to offend these

7:01

figurative characters and I will use their full

7:03

names Fantastic , Awesome , All right . So

7:05

Stephanie and Ryan they have been

7:07

together for six years and

7:09

they have two kids and they both

7:12

wanted to be parents . And before they had

7:14

kids , they remember moments when they

7:16

would both stay up and talk excitedly

7:18

about what kind of family life they wanted

7:20

and that they could have together

7:22

. And these conversations helped them feel close

7:24

and it gave them both a lot of confidence that

7:27

they were ready to start their family . And

7:30

now that they're four years into being parents

7:32

, they have a four-year-old and a two-year-old . Stephanie

7:35

has lost that feeling of confidence

7:37

that she once had in Ryan

7:40

and their ability to be the kind of

7:42

family they imagined they would be

7:44

in Ryan and their ability to be the

7:46

kind of family they imagined they would be . And

7:50

much of this feeling for Stephanie revolves around Ryan not engaging with her and thinking about

7:52

how they want to parent , what kind of kids they're hoping to help develop

7:54

, and being intentional about thinking

7:57

through the kind of father he

7:59

wants to be . And all of

8:01

these are things Stephanie has committed hours

8:04

and hours of her time to consider and

8:06

things that she wakes up and intentionally thinks

8:08

about every day . She's

8:10

active in trying to read about parenting and child

8:12

development . She's active in trying to take

8:14

care of her own physical and mental health through

8:16

exercise . She's even gone

8:19

to some therapy . Stephanie

8:21

sees her role as a mother and parent

8:23

as one of the most important jobs and privileges

8:25

she has , and she

8:27

works to succeed at her

8:29

job and to fulfill this privilege

8:32

. And Stephanie's frustration

8:34

with Ryan is that she does not see this

8:36

same level of effort and commitment from

8:38

him in relationship to being a

8:40

father and parent . And it's not that Ryan

8:43

is a bad dad or not loving towards

8:45

the kids he's very loving but

8:47

he does not engage Stephanie when she wants

8:49

to discuss parenting or discuss if Ryan

8:52

is taking the proper steps to care for his own

8:54

physical and mental wellness . Stephanie

8:56

knows Ryan cares and she

8:58

doesn't want to get into a competition about who's working

9:01

harder as a parent , but she does not

9:03

feel that Ryan is sharing the burden

9:05

of parenting in regards to being mindful

9:07

about how they parent , the type

9:09

of home environment they're creating and

9:12

caring for himself so that he can be the

9:14

best version of himself with

9:16

the family . That's

9:19

Steph and Ryan . You

9:22

just called her Steph , oh , sorry . Sorry

9:25

, Stephanie , I apologize . Yeah

9:30

, what a hypocrite . Don't

9:32

call me Steve , but I'll shorten your name .

9:35

I think this is so common .

9:37

Yes

9:39

, even I was thinking about this kind

9:41

of writing up this case example . So all these

9:43

, all these case examples are just , you know , kind of

9:45

a conglomeration of , um

9:47

, a lot of the conversations that we have

9:49

with couples , um yes , but they're never

9:52

like based on yeah they're not . they're not like specific

9:55

individual couples , uh stories

9:57

. But as I was writing it up , I was even thinking

9:59

I was like , oh , aaron and I

10:01

have had this very conversation , and like

10:03

not too long ago even

10:06

, and I

10:08

think our conversation is primarily

10:11

centered around you

10:13

wanting me to think about my

10:15

own like self-care

10:19

, my own like internal mental health

10:21

, my own , you know , kind of those

10:23

those sort of things in terms of , hey

10:26

, maybe there's some things you should think

10:28

about or consider , or you

10:30

know , because it it feels like it's coming

10:32

out , you know , in your interactions

10:35

with us and the family in a way that maybe you don't want

10:37

. So I feel like we've had

10:39

those conversations for sure

10:41

.

10:41

Oh sure , I think . So this is

10:44

. I think it's important to

10:46

talk about this because I don't think this conversation

10:48

ever goes away .

10:49

So I mean , even as you're 16

10:52

years in . Uh , it has not

10:54

gone away .

10:54

Yes , but I think it it is . It is constantly

10:57

evolving because , um

10:59

, I think you and

11:02

like me , me asking for you to do

11:04

some work , and like , hey , I

11:06

think you think you're being more patient than we

11:08

feel like you're being , um

11:10

, that , yes , certainly , but that has

11:13

shifted . Like that was not the conversation

11:15

we were having when we had newborns . Um

11:17

that was not the conversation we were

11:19

having you know like . I just think it's it's

11:21

not like a thing that goes away yeah

11:25

, and , and I think that there's a dynamic yeah , yeah

11:27

, I think there's a dynamic .

11:28

So with with stephanie and ryan , like there's

11:30

this , there's this idea and so

11:32

, like you know , some behind the scenes conversations

11:35

that stephanie and ryan are having . So

11:37

kind of they go like this Stephanie

11:40

sees

11:43

Ryan maybe feeling stressed

11:45

out or being a little more

11:47

short with the kids than

11:50

you know maybe he would like . Or

11:53

she sees Ryan

11:55

come home and

11:57

just kind of be tired and

12:00

disengaged . You know Stephanie's also

12:02

working coming home . They've

12:04

both got full-time jobs . You know both

12:06

work outside of the home . Both are coming back

12:09

from work .

12:10

Or even if they don't Sure yeah

12:12

, but go ahead .

12:13

Yeah , yeah , but you know their life , they do , stephanie

12:15

and Ryan . They're both really . You know their careers

12:18

are going great , they're doing well . Their careers are going great , they're

12:21

doing well . But

12:33

for Ryan , it's not that he's some terrible disinterested father

12:35

or dad or angry , but it's just that he leaves thinking

12:38

about how

12:41

they want to raise

12:44

their kids . So , like you know , are

12:46

we gentle parents or are we

12:48

, I don't know , some people do , I don't

12:50

know what's the other , some other type ? Are we some

12:53

people do , like a love and logic

12:55

parenting , or some people do ? I

12:59

don't know , it's not the point . Yeah , yeah , yeah

13:01

, yeah , you know all these different parenting styles that people you

13:03

know like what , what kind of parenting we do

13:05

, oh well , well , you know , stephanie will take care of that

13:07

and tell me what to do or

13:09

I think , or well

13:12

, or even like we're good parents

13:14

like , why do like , let's trust .

13:15

Yeah , yeah , yeah , let's trust our , let's trust our

13:18

instincts .

13:18

You know I , you know I had good experience

13:20

like I know what to do , or even like developmentally

13:23

, like . So our kids are four and

13:25

two , like what might they

13:27

be experiencing

13:30

about the world , what might be

13:32

useful for their emotional development

13:34

or their physical development ? You know , it's

13:36

kind of like oh , you know Steph worries

13:38

about all of that stuff . Why would you both worry about it ? Yeah , I don't need to .

13:40

You know Steph worries about all of that stuff ? Why would you both worry about it ?

13:42

You know why ? Yeah , I don't need to . You know she worries enough for both

13:44

of us . Those kinds of things

13:46

, I think , are the conversations that

13:49

might happen . And I think for Stephanie she's

13:51

saying like this stuff is important

13:53

and I want us

13:55

to be on the same page

13:58

and see that you have a

14:01

feeling that it's important too .

14:03

So I think that it can go a lot of ways

14:05

. I think it's definitely what you're talking about , but I

14:07

think one of the primary ways

14:09

that this becomes default parent

14:11

territory is definitely some of the things you're

14:13

saying . But also , like we

14:15

have a four and a two year old , that means we need to

14:17

start thinking about school

14:20

. We need to start thinking about

14:23

future . Things Like are

14:25

we enrolling them in soccer ? I saw

14:28

up at the park in our neighborhood

14:30

the other day . There were some kids that looked about their age like

14:32

is that something we want to be doing , or should we be

14:34

doing that ?

14:35

Right To get them connected to friends

14:37

and a community and an experience of

14:39

like .

14:40

Yes , and I think it

14:43

matters yes to your point , like yes , but

14:45

I think where it feels lonely

14:49

is when I

14:51

mean I'm personal again , like me

14:53

, trying to bring these things up . I mean , we've been talking about

14:55

school for 13 years and

15:00

it's like these things work themselves out . I

15:03

, I can't , I like that is a terrible

15:05

thing to say , like no , these things

15:07

don't work themselves out , I work

15:09

them out like they get worked out

15:11

in your mind . because I

15:14

have labored , I have spent the time

15:16

, I have invested myself , I've projected

15:19

17 different scenarios about

15:21

how each thing is going to impact

15:23

them , and what I want

15:25

is for one you

15:27

to see that that matters . And two

15:30

, to feel like all of the burden

15:32

of this doesn't fall on me . That

15:34

you care , that you're interested , that you're

15:36

involved in this .

15:38

And not like that I care from the standpoint of like

15:40

okay , well , run me through all the information

15:42

that you know and that you've done the research on

15:44

. Yeah , I'm willing to talk . No , it's like or

15:46

they're like . I trust you I know you're gonna

15:48

make a great decision yeah like .

15:50

Thank you , I love your trust . I

15:53

don't want to be the

15:55

only one making this decision you know another

15:57

way .

15:57

I see it is like , if you just think , just

15:59

think about how

16:02

will our family interact

16:04

with our kids when they show

16:06

the range of emotions that

16:08

kids show . But like what , what

16:10

are we going ? What are we going to do ? And

16:12

I think that this is something that the default

16:14

parent oftentimes has

16:17

really drilled down on has read some books

16:19

, has you , has listened to some podcasts

16:21

like this , has kind of tried

16:23

to understand , okay , what is the best way

16:26

to interact with a

16:28

kid to help their emotional

16:30

development flourish . And

16:34

oftentimes what that default parent also

16:36

realizes is oh , if

16:39

I'm going to help my kid flourish emotionally

16:41

, I have to think about my own emotional

16:44

world and maybe there's some things

16:46

that might need to be different , because

16:48

there's a direct connection

16:50

between how a parent interacts

16:53

with their emotional world and

16:55

how they interact with their kid in their emotional

16:57

world . And oftentimes the default parent is the

16:59

one who's like okay , I've got all this , you know

17:01

, I've done all this work to try and understand . And

17:04

then they look to their other partner and their other and

17:06

their partner says you know ? Ryan says like you

17:08

know , I'm just going to go on instinct here , I'm just going to

17:10

, you know , like , this is what people did , this is

17:13

how . This is what happened for me and

17:15

it turned out fine . And and there's

17:17

this idea of like , why are you so stressed

17:19

out and worried about this ? I don't need

17:21

to do that . And

17:31

what that does is it leaves Stephanie hanging , in a sense , because what she's wanting

17:33

to do is say , like , I want to be a unified team who's

17:36

really thought through the best

17:38

practice here on how to engage

17:40

with our kid in this emotional

17:43

kind of development , and what

17:45

that means is we need to engage

17:47

ourselves with our own emotional development

17:50

and think about how that's impacting them . And

17:52

she's hearing from Ryan

17:54

. You know Ryan saying either no , that's not important , or

17:56

he might just say , okay , well , tell me what you want me to do

17:58

. Like , what do we need to do

18:00

?

18:01

Yes . So I think yes

18:04

, I mean I don't disagree with what you're saying , I

18:06

think how I see this happening and

18:08

then I think we should do the like . How

18:10

it works ? Yes , but

18:12

I think it happens very often

18:14

. I mean , we are intentionally and purposefully

18:16

, and always will continue to say , default parent

18:18

rather than mom , but very often this is

18:21

the mom Right .

18:22

Yes .

18:23

And it does matter . Sometimes

18:25

it doesn't . It is not always the case , so I'm

18:27

not going to say that it is , even though very often yeah , because

18:30

it's not always the mom . But it is very

18:32

often the person who has been

18:35

pregnant with this little person .

18:37

And .

18:38

I think that there's this experiential bodily

18:41

change that does happen when

18:44

you are pregnant , where everything about your life

18:46

is forced Maybe not everything , but

18:48

man almost every

18:50

last thing in your life the way you sleep

18:52

, how you work , how you walk

18:54

, everything changes and

18:56

that is forced upon you . That

18:59

happens to you in a way , and then

19:01

in a way that never happened

19:03

to you like that happened , Right yeah

19:05

. And I think that that continues to

19:08

happen . So then you birth this person and

19:10

you do think about like what , what

19:13

do we want to do ? How do I want this to go and I think

19:15

that is a very common thing for it to happen

19:17

where it's like well , I'm , I'm

19:22

going to do this .

19:24

I'm doing this , I'm going to do this as intentionally

19:26

. Well

19:30

, I think it heightens that idea of priority and privilege . So I think , in the sense of you've had this

19:32

physiological experience where you've

19:34

had to prioritize a

19:37

kid in a really unique

19:40

, important way , but then also , I think there's this great

19:43

at least my understanding from you

19:45

like this great profound sense of like a

19:47

privilege that you feel like this

19:49

kid is a priority and it is

19:51

a privilege to like have

19:53

this kid . And it's not that I didn't feel like

19:55

our kids were a priority or

19:58

privilege , it's just it . There

20:00

was something priority

20:02

or privilege , it's just there was something different

20:05

about it .

20:05

I think , because

20:09

of that attachment , embodied experience . Yes , I think that's exactly what happens , and then

20:12

the trend continues , because I do think there were different things asked of you in

20:14

that time that were not asked of me . I think

20:16

you felt a great deal of pressure . Well , I think

20:18

everybody feels a great deal of pressure .

20:19

But think that's the point .

20:21

What we're not saying is it's

20:23

one person , not the other , it's both of

20:25

us . Steven felt privilege , I felt pressure

20:27

. There was , there was a lot of things happening for everybody

20:29

, but it is different . It's different

20:31

and what we're , what we're saying is , at some

20:33

point , what , what the what

20:36

, the question , what the request

20:38

, what the longing , frankly

20:40

, is join me here

20:43

in this priority and privilege everything

20:45

about me has changed some of

20:47

the things I'm still trying to figure out

20:49

. If I like who I am , what this means , but

20:51

also like evolve

20:53

with me yeah , like , oh , I love that

20:56

.

20:56

Evolve with me . Yeah , change

20:58

with me . Like I'm changing .

20:59

Yes , like I'm , I am , I am changing

21:01

, and I in ways that are uncomfortable

21:04

, in ways that I do like , in ways I'm not sure

21:06

about yet , um , and I think that is

21:08

an overwhelming thing , and it feels like

21:10

I'm the only one it's happening to

21:12

yeah and it feels like , and

21:14

I think to some extent it's because it it

21:17

wasn't forced upon you right

21:19

some extent , and I don't love that word forced , but it's

21:22

kind of true . But also

21:24

like choose this , like

21:26

be in this , immerse yourself in this

21:29

, like I'm immersed in this and

21:31

when you don't , it feels like

21:33

you won't Like . why are

21:35

you resisting this ?

21:36

So two words that you're using that feel very

21:38

impactful

21:41

to me are evolve

21:43

with me and immerse

21:45

yourself in this with me

21:47

, and I think that , in terms

21:49

of like , what

21:52

? So ? What do you do ? You know , how do you

21:54

, how do you make this

21:56

active change

21:58

? How do you shift this dynamic

22:01

when there's the you know change ? How do you shift this dynamic when

22:03

there's this default parent , non-default

22:05

parent , and

22:09

you're missing each other here ? I think that those words are so important . It is , and for

22:11

that non-default parent , what it is is , it

22:15

is an understanding that

22:17

that you have

22:20

to evolve , you have to

22:22

change you

22:24

, erin , had to change

22:26

in ways that were

22:28

physical , that were emotional

22:30

, that were spiritual , that were psychological

22:32

, that was just Like cellular , yeah

22:35

, like unbelievable

22:37

, and

22:40

yeah , I did it . But

22:42

I think on that , I did , but not

22:44

to that . There's a , there's a , there's

22:46

a level of like depth to

22:49

what you're talking about , and so

22:51

I I feel like the evolution for for

22:53

me at the very least is to

22:55

know that that happened

22:57

for you and that

22:59

what you want happened

23:07

for you , and that what you want is to feel that

23:09

I'm evolving with you too and that I demonstrate that in some way . And I can

23:11

demonstrate that by , like hey , guess what ? I was doing

23:13

some research on child development

23:16

and I was just thinking through , you know we , our , our

23:18

kids are , you know . You know

23:20

12 , you know 10 and six . Like you know

23:22

, this is kind of where they're where they're at in life

23:24

. Like you know , are we . You

23:26

know , like having that kind of

23:28

conversation means I'm

23:32

evolving with you .

23:33

And immersing yourself as well .

23:35

Right , right right .

23:35

That's how it would work , that we would both be

23:39

able to communicate about the things that are happening and

23:41

that we would be together in

23:43

that , even if it's like I don't

23:45

feel that , but

23:47

I think how it doesn't work is someone

23:49

feeling like they're dragging the other

23:51

person ?

23:53

You are coming to this preschool tour

23:55

.

23:55

We are doing this . And the other person like , yeah , you are coming

23:57

to this preschool tour like we are doing this and the other person feeling

23:59

dragged .

23:59

There's nothing that um furthers that gap like

24:02

pressure yeah , being controlled

24:05

or forced , but I think that both partners

24:07

feel controlled and forced a million , equally

24:10

yes , like yes , a hundred percent so

24:12

ryan feels controlled and forced because

24:14

he's not doing enough to show that he

24:17

cares , and

24:19

Stephanie feels controlled

24:21

and forced because she feels like it's

24:23

left up to her .

24:25

I also think that this is one of those like

24:27

why it doesn't

24:30

work is I think there's a

24:32

real fear of like

24:34

yes , we're parents and yes

24:36

, we are immersing

24:39

and evolving . I don't want that to be the

24:41

only thing . No , we're also

24:43

these other people and we have these other lives and

24:46

I'm not just this

24:48

and I think that there is some fear

24:50

that if I go ahead and do

24:52

what you're asking or what I feel like you're asking , I'm

24:55

going to completely lose myself

24:57

, which I guess I get , but

25:00

think about it too .

25:01

I think it also is the thing

25:03

like your

25:06

life has changed . You have

25:09

become parents . Parenting

25:11

is a really big part of your life . A

25:19

really big part of your life . What , what the ? The result of evolving and

25:21

immersing yourself in this role also

25:23

gives you another context

25:26

and another avenue and another

25:28

experience that you can have of connecting

25:31

with your partner

25:33

. When you , when you evolve and

25:35

immerse and feel connected and

25:37

like you're working together , that's

25:41

like a whole new realm of

25:43

growth and of relational

25:46

goodness that you're able to have

25:48

. And so I think , yes

25:51

, there's that fear , but also there's

25:53

that possibility that

25:56

to respond

25:59

in these ways can actually bring you

26:01

and your partner together and give you more

26:03

space and more time to

26:05

do all that other stuff that you

26:08

be , all those other parts of yourselves

26:10

, but also to really

26:12

enjoy and

26:15

revel in this new context

26:17

of parenting together .

26:19

Sure . So I think that that's the one side of

26:21

the fear . I think the other fear is this interpretation

26:23

. So for the me's and the Stephanie's

26:26

of like I

26:28

, my fear is you

26:30

don't want this as much as I do . You

26:33

don't or you don't like it , or you

26:35

don't love our kids like I do , or you don't love me

26:37

like you used to and like that

26:40

. This has changed . And so I think

26:42

that there is some real fear of like , well

26:44

, I'm not going to press too hard

26:46

or I'm going to press all

26:48

the way , but I think the

26:52

balance is so it doesn't have to

26:54

be extreme

26:56

ends of the spectrum , but I think that that's

26:58

what happens when this starts

27:00

to emerge is people

27:03

go to those extremes , and I think what you're

27:05

saying is that someone

27:07

engaging can create

27:09

the space for the other person to feel like , oh , I

27:12

can balance

27:14

myself , like it doesn't have to be . We

27:17

talk about nothing except preschool

27:19

, or sure ?

27:21

sure , yeah , or high school , but but think about

27:23

it . If you actually have evolved and immersed

27:25

yourself , you don't have

27:28

to keep talking about it . You have the conversations

27:30

. You both feel like you're understood . You both feel like you have a

27:32

pathway forward . You both feel like you have a pathway forward . Do you both

27:34

feel like there's some resolution , like it

27:37

actually frees space ?

27:39

That's exactly right . I think you've created choice and not reaction

27:41

.

27:42

Yeah , because outside

27:44

of doing that , what you're , what you are in

27:46

, is a constant tug of war with one another

27:48

, where there's nothing but tension

27:50

, and all that does is exhaust you and

27:53

make you want to stay away from

27:55

each other because , or at least the conversation

27:57

yeah . Yeah , and so I mean

27:59

, I think in

28:01

this , like there's

28:05

the reality . I

28:08

think that there's two things so like on

28:12

your end , the Stephanies and Aaron's

28:14

, and like that idea

28:17

of why this is

28:19

so frustrating and why this is so

28:21

painful and why it hurts , because

28:23

you feel missed , because you feel like I or

28:25

Ryan miss the

28:28

depth of the evolution and

28:40

change that you have been through

28:42

, and there's

28:44

a feeling of you're not with me anymore

28:46

. You're not , you're not coming with me anymore

28:48

in this change . And so when

28:50

we're talking about school , that's

28:53

what we're talking about , when we're talking about the

28:55

emotional development of our kid

28:57

, and you know , like wanting to , like

28:59

, that's why this is such a hard conversation

29:01

. It's because it taps into those feelings

29:04

of , oh , my

29:07

priorities

29:10

have changed

29:12

so much . I have had to evolve

29:14

and immerse myself in this new role

29:16

in a way that I could have never imagined

29:18

and I feel like you're

29:20

not here with me so I think that is the

29:24

primary , the crux of it .

29:25

But I also think there's this other thing of like , and

29:27

the assumption is that's the only .

29:29

Those are the only parts left of me you

29:31

know , the only thing I love to talk about is

29:33

preschool and soccer and

29:36

whatever emotional

29:39

development Like that's all there is to me now

29:41

because I've evolved and immersed myself in this

29:43

.

29:43

that that's all there is . And

29:46

like and that feels like a real

29:49

assumption and

29:51

honestly it's slimy , you know like

29:53

? No , there's these .

29:55

I'm forced to bring these up to you constantly because

29:58

, you're not engaging and

30:00

you not engaging with me doesn't allow

30:02

you to be more . Yes , exactly Because it

30:04

keeps you , I'm being dragged

30:06

back into like I am

30:08

constantly having to this .

30:10

It won't resolve .

30:12

It doesn't go away , so it just .

30:14

I keep churning in it , which I think

30:16

is that feeling of like I am drowning

30:19

in childhood decisions here

30:21

and you're just watching me and you're like

30:23

oh , but you're doing great , you're doing so good , but

30:25

you're so good at it Like no .

30:28

Yeah , and I think that again

30:30

, where

30:32

this conversation can get sideways a little bit too

30:35

, is like there's this idea that the

30:37

non-default parent says well , what I'm doing

30:39

is important too , and I'm doing a lot , and it's like

30:41

you know , yes , you are , everything you're

30:43

doing is important and you're doing a lot too .

30:45

Unnecessary and good .

31:07

But also you're a parent and that's happened

31:11

and that's happened , and you

31:13

can't leave that role the default

31:15

parent 100% . So

31:18

you have to do the same

31:20

thing , it doesn't matter what you're doing

31:22

, because the

31:24

role is a shared role

31:27

. The

31:30

role is something you're doing together and so you have to do

31:32

it together , and I think that

31:34

that is really

31:38

important . And so you have to evolve

31:40

and immerse together

31:42

in an equitable way

31:44

. And I think that that

31:47

is really hard for that non-default

31:51

partner to get and

31:53

it's really hard for the non-default partner

31:56

and the default partner to communicate about

31:58

it , Because there's a lot of hurt and

32:00

there's a lot of defensiveness and there's a lot of

32:02

resentment and there's a lot of guardedness . But

32:06

you have

32:08

to evolve and immerse together .

32:10

I think that's the how to fix what's broken . Part here

32:12

is that it must be engaged

32:14

. There's that saying that I'm

32:16

pretty sure I picked up in one of the restaurants I worked at

32:19

in college which is that um , um

32:21

, or my graduate school education

32:24

, but I actually don't think it was like engage

32:26

, don't enrage , and it's

32:28

just true . So I think a lot

32:30

of times partners in in these types of conversations

32:33

it's like , well , this is going to be a conflict

32:35

. I'm just going to like , hey , I

32:38

trust you , or

32:40

the Stephanie's and the me's , because even in the thing it's like Stephanie

32:43

doesn't want to talk about it . I don't want to get

32:45

into the who's doing which and

32:47

what , and I and you and like

32:50

let's engage this

32:52

as a we and assume that we

32:54

are a team in this and like , hey , these

32:57

are the five conversations or the things

32:59

choices , because a lot of it is choices . I mean , even

33:01

I was thinking about us , like our

33:05

oldest is in sixth grade right now and

33:07

it seems like we should not need to be talking about high

33:09

school .

33:10

Right .

33:10

And Steven's , like I'm not going

33:12

to talk about that because it shouldn't be

33:15

a conversation .

33:16

That's not how this works . I have totally not

33:18

immersed myself . I was , I've been

33:21

, I was thinking about this too , like I , so I'm convicted

33:23

, I'm , I'm , I'm , I'm , I'm

33:25

called to account here . But

33:28

because in a sense , I'm like I

33:30

haven't immersed myself in this school decision , I

33:32

haven't done any research , I haven't been like , okay , what

33:34

are the options out there ? Let's , let's like

33:36

, but you have but

33:38

.

33:38

I think that this is one of . This is my point . My point

33:40

was not to have you publicly say this

33:42

.

33:42

I just have thought about it .

33:43

The point is is that ? That doesn't make sense to

33:45

you . You're like when I was growing up in

33:47

sixth grade , I knew where I was going to high school

33:49

.

33:50

True .

33:50

So that's how this is going to go and

33:59

how this is going to go , and that may be for us how that goes , but the point is it doesn't have to go

34:01

that way . There are lotteries where we live .

34:01

You can choose a lot of things . Yeah , you can go wherever you want

34:04

, pretty much 40 minutes across town . It's

34:06

yours if you want it , and I just

34:08

think it's

34:10

different .

34:11

It's not how it is . When you grew up , however , it was

34:13

when you grew up , wherever it was , um and

34:15

and the . The way for this

34:17

conversation to go away , um

34:20

is to engage it like okay

34:22

, so what does this mean ? These are the decisions

34:24

at hand . These are the things we need to be talking about

34:26

you do a little bit , I'll do a

34:28

little bit , and then we can come together and then it's shared

34:31

it's shared , yeah

34:34

, and , and so I think that and

34:36

even the five decisions , if stephanie

34:38

and aaron are the only people making that list

34:40

of the five decisions in hand . Um

34:43

, that's not gonna go well either in our

34:45

life . I don't do any sports . I show

34:47

up , I'm very loud , way

34:49

too loud . I'm working on that , but um your

34:52

voice carries , it does and I don't even know

34:54

what I'm talking about . I just get so excited . Um

34:56

, but you , you handle

34:59

all things . Sports emails , um , I

35:01

heard at practice yesterday one of the dads was like have we gotten

35:03

seven emails a day ? Like , why are there so

35:05

many emails , right ?

35:06

now .

35:06

Like it

35:08

can't be just one person even dictating

35:10

the conversations about what's

35:12

happening .

35:13

Right stations

35:16

about what's happening Right , and so you need to ask yourself the question so if you're the

35:18

default parent , this

35:22

idea of the evolution and the immersion

35:24

that you don't feel like your

35:26

partner has kind

35:30

of matched you in , is that

35:32

part of what some of your pain is

35:34

, is that part of what some of the frustration

35:37

is ? And if so , it

35:40

might be useful for you to reflect

35:42

on that and be able to communicate , not

35:44

in a blaming or critical way like , oh

35:47

, I'm realizing why there's so much

35:49

energy around this for me is because I

35:51

feel like this in terms of the

35:54

evolution and the immersion , and then I

35:56

think but I think how that what that means is

35:58

like this is what I think you have missed

36:00

about the cost to me which

36:03

doesn't mean .

36:04

What I'm trying to share is my experience .

36:06

Yeah .

36:07

And that I don't my experience

36:09

. I don't feel like you've understood it or seen it .

36:12

And then I think , if you're the non-default parent , I

36:14

think the questions you have to ask

36:17

yourself is how have I missed

36:19

the evolution that has taken place for

36:22

my partner , myself

36:25

, in my role as a

36:27

parent , in an equitable , 100%

36:29

kind of way ? Like

36:41

what can I do ? And

36:44

I want to have that conversation with my

36:46

partner and say I feel like this is

36:48

how I've missed that immersion . This

36:50

is what I'm thinking , this is how I'm seeing

36:52

that . What immersion might look like ? Does

36:55

that fit for you ? This is how I'm seeing that . What immersion might

36:57

look like . Does that , does that fit for you ? With that , you know , does that feel like

36:59

me engaging in a way

37:01

that you've missed ? Like you have

37:04

to have that , that kind of conversation .

37:06

Yes , and then I think the layer beneath all of that is

37:08

the like how did we come to be here , like

37:10

so , if you have been resistant

37:12

to that evolution

37:15

and that immersion , rather than being like

37:17

I'm such a terrible person or they're such

37:19

a terrible ?

37:20

partner Like how

37:22

?

37:22

how come Like ? What are the stories that ? Have formed

37:24

that Like how did that come to be and

37:26

what are the fears , what are the desires

37:28

? So often when we are having this conversation

37:31

with couples , that's where that

37:33

connection comes back and understanding , like

37:35

I am afraid this feels like a lot

37:37

. I'm overwhelmed most of the time and

37:39

, like me too , like

37:41

yeah , yeah .

37:42

Or I don't even know how to , I don't even know

37:44

what to do . I practically I just

37:46

don't know what to do , those

37:48

those kinds of things , or .

37:50

I'm afraid I'm going to get it wrong . So , yeah

37:52

, I do leave it up to you , and I can

37:54

acknowledge that that's freeing

37:56

for people to hear . So it's true

37:58

, I'm not crazy . I haven't been

38:00

making this up . No , you

38:03

haven't . I'm nervous . I don't

38:05

want those Me either , but that isn't fair

38:07

. Just because I'm scared yeah

38:10

.

38:10

Anyway , the house .

38:11

They're very important .

38:13

So , evolution and immersion , how

38:23

can those two principles , those two concepts , guide you

38:25

and your partner into a different kind of interaction around

38:27

this very , very , very important topic ? Today's show was

38:29

produced by Aaron and Stephen Mitchell . If

38:31

you're enjoying the podcast , please hit the follow

38:33

button and leave us a rating . This helps our

38:35

content become more visible to others who might

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enjoy it and it lets us know how

38:40

we can keep improving the show . And , as always

38:42

, we're grateful for you listening . Thanks

38:47

so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling

38:49

for Parents , and remember , working

38:51

on a healthy couple relationship is

38:53

good parenting .