0:01

Hello and welcome , mrs Couples . Counseling

0:03

for Parents , I show about couple

0:05

relationships , how they work , why

0:07

they don't , what you can do to fix

0:09

what's broken . Hiya parents Our

0:13

Dad Dr Steven Mitchell and our Mom

0:15

Erin Mitchell .

0:18

Hello and welcome to Couples Counseling for Parents . I'm

0:20

Dr Steven Mitchell and on today's

0:22

episode , Erin and I wanted

0:24

to share with you the privilege

0:27

that we had of interviewing Rachel

0:29

and Marley Shepherd Ota and

0:32

Rachel and Marley are parents

0:34

to three kids and Rachel

0:36

is the founder and creator of

0:38

hey Sleepy Baby . And

0:41

we had a conversation with Rachel and

0:43

Marley just about sleep , about

0:46

how she got interested

0:48

in sleep and felt like

0:50

it was a really important

0:52

topic to try and be engaging

0:55

with parenting couples about . And

0:57

so Erin and I wanted to hear a little

0:59

bit from Rachel and her partner , marley

1:01

, just about their own personal experience

1:04

of dealing with sleep

1:06

and kids , and then also how

1:08

that has really helped guide them

1:11

and particularly Rachel in her work

1:13

with parents and

1:15

talking with them about sleep and how

1:17

to navigate that with their partner

1:20

and with their kids . So

1:22

let's jump right in and we hope

1:24

you enjoy . On today's show we

1:26

have Rachel and Marley

1:28

Shepherd Ota , who are

1:30

parents to three little kids that live

1:32

in San Francisco , and they live in San Francisco

1:35

, california , and after Rachel

1:37

and Marley had their first baby , they realized

1:39

how little they knew about the

1:41

way babies sleep . That's

1:43

a big deal , didn't we all realize

1:45

that ? I get it . I'm

1:48

there with them . And so Rachel decided

1:50

to pursue an infant sleep certification

1:52

when she was pregnant with her second child

1:55

, and then she decided to use

1:57

this knowledge and her passion for

1:59

helping families to create a new platform

2:01

for parents to learn about normal

2:03

infant sleep and to help them find

2:06

community . Rachel and Marley

2:08

recently welcomed their third baby and

2:11

they are here with us today and

2:13

I'm ready . I'm ready for this

2:15

conversation .

2:16

We are ready , thank you so much for having us

2:18

.

2:20

Thank you so much for being here .

2:23

I know that prior to

2:25

this official interview , Rachel , we were

2:27

talking a little bit about this

2:30

whole conversation about sleep and

2:33

partners and just it

2:37

feels rich .

2:38

It's a lot , there's a lot , there's

2:40

a lot here .

2:41

Yeah , there really is , and

2:44

kind of , maybe we can start at the beginning

2:46

.

2:46

Yeah , Maybe A

2:48

very good place to begin . I'm sorry , I'll turn

2:50

the sound of music in that .

2:55

Just so , like you and Marley

2:57

, what was the kind of the

2:59

awakening , in a sense , when you're like , oh

3:02

, we did it , we didn't know , yeah

3:05

, what was going on ?

3:06

Well , we had . I don't know if it's

3:08

a blessing or a curse to have your hardest

3:10

baby first , but

3:12

our first baby was very difficult

3:15

and I had been around babies

3:17

my whole life . I started babysitting when I was like 12

3:19

or something , and so he really just

3:21

threw me for a loop , and

3:23

Marley really didn't have much experience

3:26

with babies at all

3:28

, so both of us

3:30

were just kind of bewildered by

3:32

the fact that he wouldn't let us put him down

3:34

and didn't

3:36

really sleep for more than a couple of hours at a time

3:38

, and all of these things that I know now are very common

3:41

, especially in the first few months . But

3:44

at the time I realized that I just hadn't heard

3:46

any of this before , like , oh , your

3:48

baby might actually want to be attached to you all the time

3:50

, or your baby is going to be feeding a lot

3:52

in those first few weeks , and I

3:54

just remember feeling so completely lost

3:57

. Even my own mom was

3:59

like , oh , you guys were never like this . You were such

4:01

easy babies and super helpful

4:03

mom , thank you . So

4:05

I just kind of had this feeling like I must

4:07

be doing something wrong or there must be something wrong with

4:09

him , because it just

4:12

was so outside of what

4:14

I had envisioned while I was pregnant

4:16

. So yeah , I kind

4:18

of just started there , marley , what about

4:20

for you ?

4:21

So you didn't have the 12-year-old babysitting

4:23

experience . Not just like you weren't

4:25

, you didn't , maybe didn't have expectations

4:27

, but what did it feel like for you ?

4:30

You know you worry so much about the pregnancy that

4:32

when the baby comes you realize there's this whole

4:34

other side of things that you absolutely haven't even

4:37

you know , you've tried to prepare for but you

4:39

don't have a ton of knowledge about . So I think that

4:41

it was sort of felt like doing a

4:43

research paper from scratch , where you just tried

4:46

to find the best articles and , you

4:48

know , sorting through all that information , trying to

4:50

synthesize it , trying to realize what

4:53

the best recommendation is and then applying

4:55

that to your kid . For

4:57

us a lot of the most common approaches

5:00

weren't working very well with our son and

5:04

so that made us , you

5:06

know , discouraged us a lot and certainly had

5:08

impacts on our relationship . And

5:11

all of these things , like Rachel said , that we know now

5:14

are really common . We just didn't know

5:16

in the moment . We were both the first

5:18

kids in our family to

5:20

have children and so there weren't any .

5:22

Oh , first borns , with the first born

5:24

.

5:25

And even the first out of most of our friends

5:27

.

5:28

Yeah .

5:29

The only friend at the time that had had a baby before

5:31

us was kind of like this tertiary friend . We

5:33

weren't super close but she was , you know , very kind , trying to give

5:36

me advice . But she was like a very type A mom

5:38

and had a very , you know , specific

5:40

way of doing things and so the things she would tell

5:42

me to do just like did not work for

5:44

us at all . And so , yeah , like Marley

5:47

said , it was just like information overload

5:49

, not having any clue what was

5:51

normal , and then kind of you

5:53

know , taking that out on each other and bickering a

5:55

lot about what the best way was or you

5:58

know how we should be doing things , and I'm

6:00

more tired no , you're more tired and just

6:02

all of that stuff , our favorite game

6:04

with no good ending .

6:06

Marley , you just said something that and

6:08

I because I think we'll come back here anyway , but

6:10

like just to pause you said

6:12

I was so worried during the pregnancy . Like

6:15

what did that mean for the two of you

6:17

? Like what , and Rachel , maybe that wasn't

6:19

true for you , but Marley , like what were those

6:21

fears or what was the anxiety there ?

6:24

You know , you just think a lot about , or I should say

6:26

I just thought a lot about what could go wrong

6:28

. Right , Like everything you

6:30

know . During the pregnancy , you go into doctor's appointments

6:32

and they always talk about the percentage of risks , and

6:34

so you never really know how to

6:37

gauge that . Like , what does one in 10,000

6:39

really mean ? Is that ? like how

6:41

afraid , should I be ? It doesn't necessarily

6:44

always correlate , and so you know

6:46

, the pregnancy itself is really demanding

6:48

on your partner , and so you're trying to be as supportive as

6:50

possible and as present and make sure that

6:52

they have everything they need , but ends

6:55

up culminating in birth , which is itself

6:57

just like a really , really

6:59

you know , intense

7:02

, big experience in your life . Yeah

7:04

, a million ways to try and prepare

7:06

, none of which will fully prepare

7:08

you if you haven't like witnessed it before

7:11

.

7:12

And we even took birth classes . But like , like you

7:14

said before , we did all this preparation for pregnancy

7:16

and birth . I did , like prenatal yoga

7:18

and all this , you know , acupuncture and all

7:20

this stuff , and then we just didn't really

7:23

ever think about what happened after the baby

7:25

.

7:25

Yeah , I think I think I'm definitely

7:27

reading my own experience into that

7:30

, but I think we hear it all the time

7:32

that there's you're playing

7:34

catch up because you are focused on pregnancy , you

7:36

are focused on birth . Those feel like pretty

7:39

intense and very present things

7:41

. You know like this is happening . Are

7:43

we ready ? Are we ready ? Are you okay ? Are you okay ? And

7:47

I don't know if you all know , we've talked about it , but our first

7:50

pregnancy ended in a pregnancy loss . So there's

7:52

, you are worried and Stephen was

7:54

worried all the time about like

7:56

am I going to ? end up losing Aaron , like what there's

7:59

? There's fear , and then

8:01

then you do get to the labor and , as you

8:03

said , rachel , it's intense , to

8:05

put it lightly . Yeah , and you don't even

8:07

really need to process any of that . The 10

8:09

months you've just spent sort of having

8:12

a lot of things happening and then now , all of a sudden

8:14

, there's this human and they

8:16

don't sleep or they

8:18

have .

8:19

All you want to do is sleep afterwards , right , yeah

8:22

?

8:22

And if you just think about just the experience like

8:25

that you just talked about , like there's

8:27

fear , you're trying to figure out numbers Like what is

8:29

one in 10,000 ? You know , like all of a sudden you're counting

8:31

jelly beans , Like

8:34

like well , I don't know what this means and

8:36

you don't ever really get to catch up Right

8:38

, I just think that's an intense , it's

8:41

a lot .

8:42

Yeah , well , and then also kind

8:45

of one of these fundamental needs that we

8:47

need to like to be well is people's

8:49

to sleep .

8:50

Right .

8:51

And it just like it's

8:54

just is gone and it just is

8:56

as like as

8:59

a couple , that that experience

9:01

of being so exhausted

9:03

and then being in this new situation

9:06

where you're also supposed to be parenting

9:09

, like you mentioned , the

9:11

bickering and the differing of opinions

9:13

, I was curious about that too . I

9:15

think that , honestly , this is one

9:17

of the most .

9:21

Present , universal , but I don't know

9:23

what word , because there are a lot .

9:25

It is a tough conversation . It

9:27

is a tough experience for

9:29

couples that most couples go through , Because

9:33

I think it's pretty common . You

9:35

know little babies , they're learning how I

9:37

mean you're running on like no sleep .

9:39

Having a newborn is extremely stressful

9:41

. You're depleted , your

9:43

whole world has just changed , like nothing

9:46

is the same . I love when people try to act

9:48

like having a baby shouldn't change your life and they're

9:50

like oh , baby just comes along for the ride

9:52

and I'm like I don't . I

9:54

that was not my experience at all , but good

9:57

for them . For us , having

9:59

a baby changed absolutely everything

10:01

, and so that's really hard to kind of grapple

10:04

with when it happens literally overnight

10:06

.

10:08

Were you surprised that y'all were , that

10:10

it created any kind of Friction

10:13

, bickering or friction or difference

10:15

in opinion , like , did you even know what your opinions

10:18

were about ? Sleep before ?

10:19

Yeah , that's the thing Like we didn't talk

10:21

about that kind of stuff , like I knew the

10:23

basics that , like I wanted to breastfeed

10:26

and you know we had certain things that we

10:28

knew we were going to do or try to do , but

10:30

sleep was kind of this thing that we

10:32

just assumed with . Naturally there's

10:34

our baby bed . Oh . Naturally

10:37

fall into place , and

10:39

oh bless you . So

10:42

when sleep doesn't just kind of like happen

10:44

, I think people

10:46

can tend to freak out , because what we see

10:48

a lot in social media and in

10:51

other media like movies , TV shows it's everywhere

10:53

is we see , you know , you just put a baby down in their

10:55

crib and they fall asleep , and so when that doesn't

10:57

happen . You're like wait what I don't think , so yeah .

10:59

Yeah , we had

11:01

opinions about sleep . And then you get up

11:04

in the middle of the night and your baby is not doing what you

11:06

want it to do , and then you're exhausted and then your

11:08

opinions could .

11:09

They changed .

11:09

They changed pretty quick . Yeah , yeah , they changed .

11:12

Marley , I love that comment because

11:14

I think that is where couples turn sideways

11:16

, because , like but we agreed this morning . Well

11:19

, yeah , but you weren't there at 3 am , like

11:21

. And , by the way , you weren't

11:23

there at 3 am , like I

11:26

was there . Yeah . But

11:28

so like , so what did that look like

11:30

? And you don't need to go into like the grittiness , but like

11:32

, did you all start to feel like you didn't feel

11:34

aligned , or did you feel like you were just tired

11:36

and you know , sort of no one's

11:39

their best when they're tired ?

11:40

Yeah , I mean , it was definitely that . I

11:42

was definitely not my best self in the middle of the night

11:44

when I was , you know , breastfeeding a tongue

11:46

tied baby for the 45th time

11:48

and he was peacefully snoring next to

11:50

me . There were many

11:52

fights had in the middle of the

11:54

night and we ended up developing our own little rule

11:57

that nothing said in the middle

11:59

of the night counts .

12:00

And when we woke up in the morning , it was

12:03

just like a clean slate .

12:04

We didn't hold anything that we said against

12:06

each other , and I said some real bad stuff , but

12:09

he was very good about just like letting it go . And

12:12

so that actually really helped us once

12:14

we started doing that , because then we weren't , you know

12:16

, fighting all night and all day .

12:17

I was also peacefully snoring with our

12:19

first yes I wondered about that .

12:21

I was like I'm going to go because Stephen would not

12:23

have been okay with that .

12:24

It was a culture where she wanted . She

12:27

said it . Would you know ? It would be helpful if you were up in the night

12:29

with me sympathize . You could run my back

12:31

, you could tell me good job . You did

12:33

do that , I'll give you that I'll give you that , when she was at her wit's

12:35

end and like just in pain

12:37

and exhausted me , rubbing her

12:39

back and saying like get off me . He was doing such a

12:41

good job . She was like I

12:44

don't know if you can bleed these out , but she would just

12:46

basically tell me to just give

12:49

her some space and yeah , yeah , I'd

12:51

like space please .

12:52

I'm serious . Yeah , that's what our three

12:54

year old says I need space .

12:55

Yeah , so actually you're

12:58

right , we did do that with our first , especially

13:00

for the first few weeks , and then with our second

13:02

we realized , like this doesn't make any sense for two

13:04

of us to be exhausted , so you just sleep

13:06

and I'll be up with the baby , and that's fine and

13:09

that worked much better for us with subsequent kids . But

13:12

yeah , I mean the

13:14

bickering and you

13:16

know you were actually very good at kind

13:18

of taking my lead . I was the

13:20

one which I'm sure is pretty common in

13:22

hetero relationships where you

13:25

know I was the one doing all the research and looking up

13:27

all the different sleep programs and

13:29

things like that . So you know I

13:31

was also the one that was feeding the baby . So he

13:33

kind of deferred to me on that and

13:37

in a way that felt good

13:39

for you both it felt good because I

13:42

was . I didn't know it then

13:44

, but I was definitely struggling with

13:46

some postpartum anxiety and

13:48

the way that a lot of my anxiety manifested

13:51

was around his sleep and his schedule

13:53

, and so having

13:55

some semblance of control over that was

13:57

really important to me , which I

13:59

now see was very unhealthy , but

14:02

I did feel like I really wanted to like find

14:04

a solution and find a plan , and

14:07

so he let me kind of take the lead on that and it

14:09

ended up really really not working out for us . But

14:12

was a good learning

14:14

experience that like nobody knows your baby the

14:16

way you do and you can't look

14:18

up a generic schedule on Pinterest

14:21

and think that it's going to just magically

14:23

apply to your baby . So yeah , is

14:25

that ?

14:25

what you were feeling Like

14:28

when you I think , the

14:30

postpartum anxiety . I think people are beginning

14:32

to understand more and talk about more and

14:35

become aware of like did you

14:37

? You didn't know it at the time . No , but

14:40

what would have been ?

14:41

Yeah , and how long ago are we talking

14:44

? This was about five years ago . My son just turned

14:46

five in October , so not

14:48

that long ago , not that long ago . But Instagram

14:51

was a very different thing . Even

14:53

just five years ago , there weren't all these amazing resources

14:55

out there , so I never even thought

14:57

to look for the information . I knew about postpartum

15:00

depression . That was something that

15:02

I had heard of before , but I didn't feel depressed , I didn't

15:04

feel sad . You know I had those few weeks

15:06

of baby blues where I was crying all the time

15:08

and you know that , you know , came

15:11

down . So I wasn't super worried , that I was

15:13

depressed , but I did have this sense

15:15

of like doom Every

15:17

time the sun went down and he was a fall baby

15:20

. So that happened at like 430 pm , which was

15:22

not fun and , like I

15:24

said , I just really ruminated and really

15:26

obsessed over his sleep and was very , very

15:28

anxious if a nap didn't go well or if

15:30

, if you know , he didn't sleep

15:33

for as long as I thought he should sleep , and I would

15:35

spend the whole next day researching and

15:37

reading chapters from books and it

15:39

just really like consumed my life , which

15:42

I now know is not a great sign .

15:45

Yes , marlee , were you aware of

15:47

that ?

15:49

I was not aware of

15:51

her postpartum anxiety by any means . I

15:55

thought that we were just both struggling and because it's , you

15:57

know , the first time going around like you don't know what normal

15:59

is . And so if you're in like a real pit

16:02

, you think well you know , maybe

16:04

this is what having a child is like . You're

16:06

just exhausted and miserable all the time . You feel

16:08

kind of crumbly . I now

16:10

know that that is not

16:12

the case . But you know , rachel

16:15

and I it's not that I didn't have opinions

16:17

about things , but I did you know we would have

16:19

conversations and ultimately , because she was

16:21

doing the majority of the labor at night and breastfeeding

16:24

, I did

16:26

defer to her a lot but

16:28

our first sleep approach really felt awful

16:30

for both of us . It

16:33

felt like we were really kind of

16:35

causing our child undue pain and

16:37

that didn't feel really good

16:39

as parents and that you did agree on

16:42

Like

16:44

yeah , we did end up sleeping training .

16:47

We used a popular sleep training course and

16:52

you know , the piece

16:55

of the course that was the hardest was that

16:57

they say you have to be really consistent and you have to stick

17:00

to it for two weeks . And so even you

17:02

know , in the first few nights , when it was feeling really

17:04

terrible , we kind of just had to like talk ourselves

17:06

through it and say , like it's not . You know , all

17:09

of this is going to be for nothing if we quit now . So

17:11

it's like it's really unhealthy mentality

17:13

that teaches you to kind of like ignore your

17:15

instincts , but anyway . So

17:18

we did end up making it the two weeks

17:20

and it still wasn't

17:22

helping at all with his sleep

17:24

. So we did agree to kind of call it

17:26

. We ended up trying it a couple other times

17:29

more , like light versions , like

17:31

oh , he's older , now let's maybe try it again

17:33

and see if it works . This time Didn't , and

17:35

then didn't again . And

17:37

so when he was about nine months

17:39

old , that was our

17:41

last attempt , because I was getting ready to go back to

17:43

work . It was the fall and I was a teacher and

17:46

I was like you know what

17:48

this is ? So not worth it , and if

17:51

I still have to wake up a couple of times per night

17:53

to feed him and then

17:55

still go to work the next day like that's just the way

17:57

it is , like I can't do this anymore . And then , like

17:59

a month and a half later , he started sleeping through the night by

18:01

himself . So it was like all

18:03

for nothing . But we were very

18:06

much by that point , on the same page , that like all

18:08

right , this is just , it is what it is and

18:10

we're just going to figure out a way to support each other through

18:12

it while we're tired , because we can't keep obsessing

18:15

over this and we really really let go . And

18:18

ironically , that was

18:20

when things kind of started to fall into place for

18:22

him . So you know , I don't know if it was he

18:25

didn't have these like crazy anxious parents anymore or

18:27

he was just developmentally ready to

18:29

sleep through the night , or both , but he did . And

18:31

it's so ironic to us now because

18:33

he's five and he is our best sleeper

18:35

now , compared

18:38

to other two . I mean , our youngest , it's still

18:40

a tiny newborn , but he

18:42

loves to sleep . He'll go to bed

18:44

without a single word of protest every single

18:46

night . He would still nap if we let him

18:49

like he just loves to sleep now . It's

18:51

so funny If we could just like go back in time and tell

18:53

ourselves to chill out .

18:55

That would be really great . So

18:57

if you could go back in time , other

19:00

than telling yourselves to chill out , like what

19:03

else would you think you both have wanted

19:05

to hear or needed to hear ? Or to

19:08

yourselves or each other .

19:10

I think a big piece for me is like this

19:12

idea of future tripping right Like yeah

19:15

definitely everybody's

19:17

. The best piece of advice is like this too

19:19

shall pass and , like you're at stages and

19:21

they are not permanent and this child

19:23

is going to develop and grow and change

19:25

. So quickly many of the things that you

19:28

struggle with even now , just like developmental

19:30

, behavioral stuff , whatever it is , it

19:32

changes and it changes over time Nothing

19:35

happens really in an instant and

19:38

that things can be hard but they won't be

19:41

the same hard forever . That's not

19:43

to say that things go away and different challenges

19:45

present themselves , but certainly

19:47

not thinking like , oh my God , this

19:49

sleep thing or whatever it is in the moment

19:51

is the rest of my life and they're never

19:54

going to change . It's like , oh , I'm an awful parent . Yeah .

19:58

What do you think ? And Marley

20:01

, hearing you say kind of that , that belief

20:03

, oh , I'm an awful parent .

20:04

I wonder about that too .

20:06

I'm really curious , Like I think

20:08

being a parent is hard , but

20:11

I think that there is a lot of anxiety

20:14

, maybe even like culturally

20:16

, like in our culture I don't know about

20:18

other cultures about about

20:20

that , about being a parent and this kind

20:23

of good or bad or a bad

20:25

parent , and

20:27

then you kind of measure that on if you can say

20:29

your kid is a quote , unquote good sleeper

20:31

or bad sleeper , Like what , like , how

20:35

did , like I don't know . Do you see that

20:37

like sort of impacting ? I mean , obviously

20:39

this is a very leading question , I'm

20:42

a really good question . Ask her

20:44

person , Great

20:46

interview . But

20:48

like does that ? Do you see that impacting

20:50

like people you work with and couples

20:52

you talk to like about ?

20:54

Well and clearly yourself , you did

20:56

feel .

20:57

Yeah , I mean , this is honestly like what we

20:59

keep coming back to as

21:01

parents ourselves , like Marley said before , like maybe

21:04

the sleep thing is in a challenge forever , but there's always

21:06

a new challenge with parenting and so having

21:08

a sense of like , intuition and confidence is

21:11

so important , and I think so many

21:13

new parents now don't have that and I don't

21:15

know why that is . I don't know if it's just

21:17

our culture or if it's , you know , too

21:19

much information out there where people just

21:21

really feel so lost and confused .

21:25

I don't know what it is , but I think

21:27

a lot of new parents don't give themselves very

21:29

much compassion . They're not compassionate

21:31

with themselves and just like , hey

21:33

, this is going to be hard and I might make some mistakes

21:36

, but like , so long as I'm present and I care

21:38

and I continue to learn and evolve

21:40

with my child , then I'm

21:42

doing the best that I can . I think

21:44

a lot of people really worry that each little

21:46

thing is going to have a really negative

21:49

long term outcome on their child . And

21:51

you know , as my son gets older and

21:53

my daughter gets older , just it's

21:55

not the case . Like there's so many

21:57

opportunities for engagement

21:59

with your kid , no one

22:01

thing is going to , you know , spiral

22:03

them out into some really long term

22:05

negative outcome .

22:07

We have so many opportunities to mess that up .

22:09

Yeah .

22:09

It's , yeah , it's broken out .

22:11

It's not equal to repair right , Exactly

22:14

.

22:14

Yeah , but that spirit

22:16

of what you're saying , of being present and

22:19

engaged you know like

22:21

you can make mistakes but

22:23

you're still present and engaged and

22:25

that means that you know it's

22:27

just a different experience , I

22:31

think for sure . Also

22:34

, kind of the statement of

22:36

evolving with your kids . I

22:38

feel like in even how you all have talked about

22:40

sort of the journey with understanding

22:42

, like sleep for your kids , like it

22:45

changed yeah , I think

22:47

you've said this here like that flexibility , that

22:49

ability to be like maybe this works

22:51

for this night

22:53

week month . I don't know , but

22:57

we need to be willing to change and

22:59

I wonder that

23:02

that seems like maybe an important

23:04

principle .

23:05

For sure and like even between

23:08

kids , right For people with multiple kids we

23:10

have a bunch of things so differently with each of our kids

23:12

, just because of what they've needed

23:14

. And so , yeah , I think that

23:16

flexibility piece is really

23:19

really huge because , like Marley said earlier

23:21

, sometimes in the morning you have a plan and

23:24

then in the middle of the night you have to switch that plan . And

23:26

you know , having such rigid

23:29

expectations and such , you

23:32

know , inflexible ideas about anything

23:34

in parenting but with sleep for sure , it's

23:36

just kind of setting yourself up for disappointment because

23:39

we can't predict what

23:41

they're going to be like or what they're going

23:43

to need or what's going to come up .

23:45

So one of the biggest and this

23:47

is a little , I mean definitely what we hear from

23:50

couples , but I don't actually think there's a research

23:52

study on this , so it's my own conclusion

23:54

. I

23:57

genuinely believe that there

23:59

are differences in parenting styles . Like , of

24:02

course I get that , but I do think most

24:04

couples who feel like they came relatively

24:08

aligned on , like this is how we're going

24:10

to approach sleep or this is how we're going to approach , you

24:12

know , I mean honestly , in those first few

24:14

months , that is what parenting is Sleep

24:18

and feeding is pretty much all you're doing that is exactly

24:20

right , yeah , so like that's , that

24:22

is your parenting style at that point . And I think both

24:24

parents think they're aligned , and then what

24:26

I think looks like difference is

24:28

one parent again , if you're in

24:30

a , the nursing mom

24:32

, if you're in this heteronormative relationship

24:34

and it doesn't have to be nursing whatever the mom , their

24:37

focus is on baby and

24:40

that is brain based

24:42

. Like that's not because they're just choosing that , like

24:44

that's how we are made . But , and then I

24:46

think there's a concern from the other

24:48

parent who also

24:50

happens to be that person's partner . That's

24:52

like I'm not sure this is okay for

24:54

you , right , are you ? Am I losing

24:57

you ? And I think back to my question tomorrow

24:59

earlier about , like we just left pregnancy

25:02

, where I've been concerned , and now I'm still

25:04

concerned and this is taking a big toll on

25:06

you , yeah , and us , I'm

25:09

concerned . I think that's

25:11

where sometimes it starts to be like , well , we're not aligned

25:14

, when really it's like I am aligned

25:16

, I just just worried about I'm worried

25:18

. Um , and it doesn't always come out like

25:20

that . Have you felt that ? Have you seen

25:22

that Like ?

25:24

yeah , and I think that was probably part of the

25:26

reason . I mean . Correct me if I'm wrong , but that was probably

25:28

part of the reason you agreed to

25:30

do the sleep training at first was because

25:32

you wanted to make the nights easier for me . You saw that I was really

25:35

struggling , I was really tired and I

25:37

was really kind of just like obsessed with how many times

25:39

he was waking up . Um , and

25:41

we were kind of sold that this was going to be the thing that would

25:43

like fix all those problems . So for

25:45

you it was probably a pretty easy sell , Cause

25:48

you were worried about me .

25:49

I mean it's also . It was marketed to

25:51

us as a quick sell right . It was like one of the most

25:53

popular sleep books on Amazon , right

25:55

12 hours by 12 weeks .

25:57

And I'm like oh of course . Oh yeah , that

26:01

was the first thing we tried .

26:02

Love 12 hours to myself

26:04

. Yeah , of course , like , yeah , little did

26:07

, we know yeah . Wasn't

26:12

going to quite work for us , but like , yeah , it was a

26:14

place of concern because the

26:17

struggle with the child , for

26:19

the , you know , the , the primary

26:22

parent , is doing the feeding in the night , especially

26:24

if you're breastfeeding it . Just it took such

26:26

a toll and , like , this person

26:29

who is just the two of us , pre-child , is

26:31

now all of a sudden being drained

26:33

and trying to find all these answers . Like you look for

26:35

quick fixes sometimes , um , but

26:38

it certainly came out of a place of worry and

26:40

you know there's , even

26:42

if you agree upon something in

26:45

the morning , there can still be resentment , even

26:47

if you're following through with that exact plan

26:49

.

26:49

Yeah , a hundred percent .

26:51

And that happens with each of our kids

26:53

. Right Like there's , I don't breastfeed

26:55

, and that is a huge favor

26:58

for my wife , even if she pumps

27:00

and does the bottle like there's no way out of it . If

27:02

we want to stick with that path and we do-

27:04

yeah . But that doesn't

27:06

mean that she doesn't look at me sometimes just like

27:08

kind of freezing , living my life , you and your useless

27:11

boo . You

27:13

can have those nipples .

27:15

It is a good question .

27:16

I would love to know , wouldn't

27:19

we all , wouldn't we all ?

27:20

I think I just mean that because , yeah

27:23

, like you're , we're sticking to the plan , I'm doing

27:25

the thing you said . But I think it sometimes

27:27

feels like we're not aligned , when really the core

27:29

is still very much aligned , like

27:31

, oh , we just got to see her

27:33

.

27:33

A baby . Oh

27:37

, a baby has just appeared on

27:39

. The video Explains my gas

27:42

.

27:44

I think it just starts to feel personal when really

27:46

the the intent and like

27:48

, the hope and the desire for the couple remains

27:50

the same , which is like , of course , we both want what's best

27:52

for this baby . But I'm seeing , steven

27:54

, I'm , this is Well , I think it can be even more

27:57

than just personal .

27:57

I think it can feel Controlling

28:00

, like , like so , if I like , in my

28:02

, in our experience , like my

28:04

input or my thoughts

28:06

about what Erin should be doing

28:08

with her body and

28:10

the baby , out

28:12

of out of concern , out of like

28:15

you know , this seems to be hard but

28:17

, yes , I don't breastfeed and we

28:20

are unsure what my

28:22

nipples are for and so , and

28:25

so it feels , it feels really

28:27

controlling , like you're not

28:29

a , you're not only not understanding

28:32

, you're trying to control my , my body

28:34

and that right , I mean I get , I

28:36

mean I get the energy around that I didn't , I

28:39

didn't , it took , it

28:41

took some , it took some um we're

28:43

speaking to breastfeeding in depth conversations

28:46

.

28:46

But I think that experience is true even when

28:48

it's not breastfeeding because it's still like you have

28:50

you don't know .

28:51

Well , yeah , even the bottle , like whatever you're .

28:53

yeah , there's an embodying difference when

28:55

he would go back to work . And then , you know , I

28:57

was the one with the baby , literally 24

29:00

, seven , and he would try to be like , oh , I think we should do it this

29:02

way . I'd be like what do you know ? Like what

29:04

are you ?

29:04

talking about ? Oh

29:07

, tell me more of wise one .

29:09

Yeah , exactly , I was just like you know , get

29:11

an opinion , which , of course , is not fair . That

29:13

I'm not saying that I was right in that scenario , but

29:15

I think that probably is a dynamic that plays out

29:17

very often , um , even

29:19

though we do have the same goal underneath it all

29:22

, which is just for the best for our baby

29:24

.

29:24

And for partners , though , there's this A

29:26

line that you should walk , where you need to formulate

29:28

an opinion and care and inform yourself

29:30

, but also not assuming that role of like

29:33

well , I looked this up , so you need

29:35

to , yeah .

29:35

It's very , very hard for you . I understand to

29:37

walk that line , because if you were totally disinterested

29:40

, didn't have any opinions on anything , then I'd

29:42

also be upset . Yes , so

29:45

yeah it's . I'm not saying it's not hard to be you

29:47

.

29:47

No , no , no , no , I'm not looking

29:49

for something yeah .

29:51

I see you .

29:52

Yeah , yeah .

29:53

She's the decision maker , but I also care

29:56

. Yes , okay that I

29:58

do hear that , though Like I want your

30:00

involvement .

30:01

But maybe not your input .

30:03

I mean , I want your input , but just not like that

30:05

, but just say exactly what I

30:07

want to hear .

30:09

But I do think I think there is

30:11

concern . I think when you said like our

30:14

ultimate goal is a healthy baby

30:16

, I think another ultimate

30:18

goal is like a healthy family

30:20

. And I know for Stephen with me , I

30:23

I nightnursed too

30:25

long every time . I nightnursed to

30:27

the point where I was not okay

30:29

, and every single time he was like hey , you're

30:32

in any chance ? This time we

30:34

could not do that and I'm like you're right , you're right , no

30:37

, because I didn't notice it until it was too

30:40

, until I was like I'm not okay

30:42

. Like I'm not okay , all yeah

30:45

. And so I think the concern , but he can't , I mean , he's

30:47

like gently trying to sort of lob that .

30:49

Well , and maybe in our you know , with

30:51

our first two

30:53

kids , maybe , like I , would

30:55

have been more vocal about like , well , you

30:57

need to do this , and then I

30:59

realized that I

31:02

didn't need to do that and it was much more like I'm

31:04

noticing , I I'm

31:07

just saying this and you're

31:10

gonna interact with it in the

31:12

way you want to . I'm not trying to tell you not

31:15

to , but

31:18

it is a fun . I mean , I think that

31:20

only it took two kids for that

31:22

.

31:23

Well , I think , fairly , it took three until

31:26

you really got it .

31:27

Are we gonna find about it right ?

31:28

now I like it ?

31:29

Is it this I ?

31:31

don't think it comes out as concerned . I think it comes

31:33

out as like are you sure this is the right thing ? Let's try

31:35

something else . Have you thought of something else ? I think we forget

31:37

the like hey , I'm worried , right

31:39

.

31:40

And I think , as women too , we or

31:42

I should speak for myself , I suppose but we're

31:45

always assuming that there's

31:47

like an ulterior motive Interesting

31:49

. So I'm like , oh , are you just trying to get the baby out of the bed so we

31:51

can have more sex ? Or like are you ? just trying to get

31:53

the baby out of the bed because you want

31:55

this , this and this and for some reason even

31:58

though he's never given me any indication that those

32:01

things are true you assume that

32:03

, like they're having all these thoughts and just

32:05

not saying them and the scapegoat is the baby

32:07

, right ? So then you walk on even more and you're like , no , she's

32:10

gonna stay in her bed until she's 25

32:12

.

32:13

She's better not . No

32:16

, she's in her own room .

32:17

I'm happy to report . But

32:19

, yeah , like I think that there

32:21

, for us at least , there was a lot of that too , where I was

32:23

kind of like you know , don't

32:25

rush me , don't rush her , like it's gonna

32:27

happen , it's fine . You know , we managed to

32:29

have a third baby , so obviously it

32:32

was all okay in the end . But

32:34

I do think that there's this element

32:36

of like pressure for intimacy and for

32:38

things to be exactly the way they used to be

32:41

before kids , and that's just not

32:43

always gonna be realistic when your kids are

32:45

really little .

32:46

Yes , I think that's yes

32:49

. I didn't know what you meant by the like , the

32:51

pressure and that , but yeah , I do think

32:53

we look for . I think a lot of times

32:55

the way we hear it from couples is like they're

32:58

lazy , they just don't want to do this , they

33:00

don't want to be an engaged parent , they don't want , and

33:03

I honestly think and that means some

33:05

of those things- might be a little bit true . I'm

33:07

not trying to dismiss any of that , but like I do think at the

33:09

core , when you get a couple layers deeper , like

33:11

it's fear and

33:13

it's sometimes just unresolved fear that I've

33:15

been pent up for 15 months of like are

33:18

you okay , are we okay

33:20

? And I think that

33:22

can be heard Like oh wait , you're

33:24

concerned about me , like sure , and

33:27

having some sort of cue about like I'm willing

33:29

to try this until this , or

33:31

like I am okay , maybe I don't look okay , maybe

33:33

I don't sound okay , but like how do we both know

33:36

? Because , like you said , I had post heartom depression and

33:38

have a master's in counseling

33:40

, was married to a guy who had a master's

33:42

in counseling and was getting a PhD in marriage and family therapy

33:44

and we didn't notice , like

33:46

we were just and we

33:49

were looking for .

33:50

we chatted about it A year

33:52

later .

33:52

Yeah , that makes me feel better .

33:54

Yeah , I think a lot of people do

33:56

, but we forget to talk

33:58

about this openly and to take cause

34:00

it feels critical .

34:01

That's the thing and I love how you're framing

34:03

it for people to just kind

34:05

of approach it with curiosity and

34:07

concern instead of oh well , we need

34:09

to change this , or you need to do this

34:11

or you need to stop doing this , just

34:14

coming at it with more of like I'm noticing and

34:17

just you know here when

34:19

you want to make a change or whatever it is like

34:21

when we were night weaning my daughter , he ended up

34:23

being the one that was full time on her overnight

34:25

and he really stepped up in

34:27

that way , which was so wonderful

34:29

, and I don't

34:32

know that everybody has that

34:34

kind of support . But yeah , those

34:36

big transitions like weaning and

34:38

moving your kids to their own room or you know things

34:40

like that , can be really , really tough on

34:43

the relationship , especially if you feel like you're being

34:46

kind of pressured into it before you're ready .

34:48

Yeah , and I think that offering

34:50

the experience rather than solutions

34:53

. Because you mentioned you had a tongue tie

34:55

. I had . We had a tongue tie baby . Oh

34:58

no , oh , I'm so sorry . I

35:00

literally just had a physical reaction to that

35:03

. I know it's like

35:05

I do . Oh , it's

35:07

mine . Yes , I have

35:09

only myself . Well

35:11

, there's a way to see this . We can show everybody

35:13

your tongue , honey . I

35:16

, it was our middle , and I was

35:19

struggling . I mean , it was so painful . We saw the

35:21

tongue tie doctor and all the things . Anyway , stephen

35:23

ended up . I joke I mock

35:25

I shouldn't , but I'm going to anyway Whittling

35:28

me this nursing stool . Go ahead

35:30

, I don't need a nursing stool

35:32

. Well , because so this ? I

35:34

really just gave eyes like no , I didn't .

35:37

This goes to show . So like I wasn't engaged

35:39

and involved you know , husband

35:42

, dad trying to be , and we

35:44

had done , I'd done some research and we had been-

35:46

reading Like the doctor said .

35:48

You know he talked about like maybe your posture

35:50

and this helps your positioning .

35:51

Maybe that would be useful .

35:52

You can get those on Amazon right . Well , you

35:55

can also whittle them from wood from your backyard

35:57

.

35:57

That is really sweet . You know what , Rachel

35:59

? It did not feel sweet at all .

36:02

I felt so mad . He brought this into

36:04

my room and I was like get it out

36:06

. Like what are ?

36:06

you doing Okay , so why did you feel mad ? This is very interesting

36:08

to me .

36:10

I didn't want that solution

36:12

One . I took it as like your posture's

36:14

wrong , like if you would put your feet up

36:16

on this little bench . I whittled for

36:18

you and he did it . I don't know why I keep saying it . It makes you

36:20

feel worse .

36:21

It was that idea . You make it sound

36:23

like I got a little pocket knife , that's what it felt like

36:25

Whittle it out of the tree .

36:27

That's what it felt like I did it , okay

36:29

, yes , so .

36:31

And again , I think it's that idea of like

36:34

look , I

36:36

have some input about

36:38

your body , yes , and

36:40

about how you're not doing something right with

36:42

your body . And that was not my intent

36:45

, of course not . I absolutely understand

36:47

.

36:47

I was very sensitive . I was bleeding

36:50

, I felt , but besides , I

36:52

did not love our interaction with our doctor in that moment

36:54

either , and so it felt like you're taking her

36:56

side , like everybody against you

36:58

, everybody's against me and it's my fault

37:00

. And oh , I just named my knees up two inches

37:02

higher .

37:03

I played right into it with that little dumb

37:05

stool .

37:06

That's been nine years . I'm

37:08

clearly not over it .

37:11

But I would also like , if he made

37:14

me a stool , I would be like why did you just waste all that

37:16

time ? Don't you know they sell the money ? I was on

37:18

, yes , when you could have like . I was just

37:20

like efficiency , efficiency . Why would you do

37:22

that when you could have taken the baby and I

37:24

could have had a nice long nap during that time , or something

37:26

?

37:27

Yeah , marley , and .

37:28

Stephen are sharing a like we're trying .

37:30

So what we've reviewed is how much of a failure

37:32

that was , and I appreciate us

37:34

bringing that up and acknowledging

37:36

that .

37:38

Sorry , I'm not sorry , but

37:40

what I mean , though , is like that

37:43

it's my body , and like what I want is

37:45

your shared experience . Join me

37:47

in this . Don't offer me solutions unless I ask

37:49

for it , and like I

37:52

want you to tell me that , like you see

37:54

that I'm struggling and you're with me , and

37:57

the other people would totally disagree and be like whittle me

37:59

a stool , but like

38:01

, where I am , like , ask for that Wait for

38:03

me .

38:04

I did not whittle this . We

38:07

need to go to the stool , please . It makes it sound

38:09

more pathetic , I'm sure I burned it . Just me sitting

38:11

out there whittling Just

38:13

perversely , you know

38:15

, me and my useless boobs Did it have like

38:17

intricate curvings on it Like what was it ?

38:19

Heart shaped . I love it . No , I

38:21

know it did not . It was very functional and Very

38:24

rudimentary .

38:24

I did it as quickly as I could with

38:26

my trill .

38:27

But I just see , like that shared experience , like

38:29

this is what it's like for me , like , do you see

38:32

and I think that a lot of times people move

38:34

into action Like I want to help you , yeah

38:36

, like , if you want to help me , get me some crushed

38:39

ice yes , and some water and

38:41

I think with sleep that comes up so often

38:43

, I mean I talk to like 98% moms

38:46

.

38:47

There are a few dads on my page which I'm very proud

38:49

of , but there's not . So I'm

38:51

usually hearing the mom's perspective and they are

38:53

always saying like my husband is pressuring

38:57

me into sleep training or is trying to get me to wean

38:59

or is trying to do

39:01

all these different things to make our situation

39:04

different , and it's really

39:06

frustrating because I don't want to do that . I

39:08

just want them to understand and to empathize

39:10

and to acknowledge how

39:12

hard and working for our baby

39:14

and how difficult this is .

39:17

I think that the pressure feels

39:20

like in my . I don't know any of these

39:22

people , but I think what we hear over and over

39:24

is that pressure is the attempt

39:26

to share your experience . Yeah

39:28

, it doesn't feel like that . No , it feels like whittling

39:30

a stool , it's like , no , just join

39:33

me , tell me how sad you are too and

39:35

how tough this must be , and like

39:37

let's talk about that . And

39:39

then let's agree on , like what

39:42

would be helpful if

39:44

anything , because

39:46

sometimes no change is

39:49

okay Like cause . As Marley

39:51

said , this isn't gonna

39:53

last forever .

39:55

No , if you do absolutely nothing to change your situation

39:57

. It's gonna change , so yeah

40:00

.

40:00

Yeah , you know , I think

40:02

, something too that I've

40:04

noticed just from the other

40:07

the non birthing

40:09

and nursing and all

40:12

of that partner is one of the

40:14

things that when and

40:17

I actually learned this , so I did my

40:20

PhD research on couples

40:24

who experienced miscarriage and infertility , and

40:27

in listening and it

40:29

was heteronormative

40:31

couples , but listening to them tell

40:33

the story , so the non birthing partner so oftentimes

40:36

when they saw their partner in

40:38

physical pain and discomfort

40:41

, it really activated this

40:43

place of fear and worry

40:45

and wanting to help . But then it

40:48

did come through and like , let

40:50

me give you a solution for fixing

40:52

this . And

40:55

that's just confusing , Because I do think

40:57

that there is something for

40:59

that other partner watching , like

41:01

with the tongue ties , stuff , like

41:03

you were in actually , like really like it was painful

41:06

, oh it's brutal .

41:06

I cannot . I don't know how you did that three times .

41:09

And there's so much just bodily discomfort

41:11

. It's pregnancy

41:13

and birth and such a bodily

41:15

experience Like it's

41:17

hard to see that oftentimes

41:20

and feel like , oh , I wanna help you not be

41:22

in pain and it

41:25

doesn't compute that really

41:27

, what you want is me to understand and

41:29

recognize that we really can't change Like maybe

41:32

we can change some of these things , but a lot of them we

41:34

can't . We just have to kind

41:37

of be together in the midst

41:39

of this discomfort and I think that that's

41:41

hard . That's just hard to click

41:44

, I think- .

41:46

Well , it's sort of what you talked about like being like

41:48

what is a good parent ? It's presence

41:50

, it's doing our best , it's trying

41:52

, it's engagement , it's just

41:54

you're with me , right . And I think sleep

41:56

is one of those things where couples feel like you

41:59

are not with me and

42:01

I've . There was no time

42:04

lonelier for me than when the sun went down

42:06

. Also , I'm so resonated with that , just

42:08

like oh . I know it's coming and

42:10

it's gonna be awful and and I'm gonna be all

42:12

by myself . Yes , even

42:14

if you're with me .

42:15

Yeah , I love that .

42:17

It is a very , very lonely feeling . Yes , yeah

42:19

, and I do think that turns couples

42:21

against each other , when I do think sometimes

42:24

, just like that , shoulder to shoulder , like this is hard

42:26

and I'm with you Really

42:29

what people are looking for ? That presence ?

42:31

And then it might change to don't be shoulder

42:33

to shoulder with me , let's figure something out .

42:34

And that I think that is the key .

42:37

Like for couples to be able to be like . It can

42:40

change .

42:41

Yeah , and knowing how to approach that together and

42:43

knowing when it's time is

42:45

so key too .

42:48

Sorry , we have to let them go . So

42:51

, Rachel , maybe you can just tell everyone

42:53

a little bit about what you specifically do with

42:55

hey Sleepy Baby , like where

42:57

people can find you in

43:00

anything that you think is important . Sure

43:02

that you want the world to know .

43:03

Yeah . So at the beginning you

43:06

guys asked like what would you go back and tell yourself

43:08

, yes , and honestly

43:10

, that's like the entire ethos to my

43:12

Instagram page Like I just wanted to

43:14

create a space where I could

43:16

have , you know , real

43:18

life , evidence-based information

43:21

, where you're not just doling

43:23

out solutions all the time but you're also really empathizing

43:25

and finding this place

43:27

of community where you can kind of , you know

43:29

, commiserate or celebrate or whatever it is

43:32

. And you know , I just wanted to create

43:34

something that I would have loved as a first-time mom . So

43:37

I started with the Instagram

43:39

page and I now have a website that has all

43:41

kinds of resources for families

43:43

to make changes to

43:45

their sleep . What did I say ? What's

43:48

the website ? What's the website ? Oh , he's like look

43:50

yourself , girl . Yeah , it's HeySleepyBabycom

43:53

, and my Instagram

43:55

and TikTok is also just HeySleepyBaby . So

43:59

, yeah , I focus

44:01

on babies and toddlers and I have

44:03

a new bedtime course coming out that's gonna be for

44:05

toddlers and older kids

44:08

. You know some new tricks up my sleeve now

44:10

that we have a five-year-old and

44:12

there's . You know , all of these different changes

44:14

and challenges that come up with each age

44:16

and stage . So it's kind of fun that I get to kind

44:18

of grow with my followers and I

44:21

started when my first was a newborn and I'm

44:23

no , I started when my second was a newborn and

44:25

now we have another . So I have a lot of followers

44:27

that have like seen me go through this whole journey

44:30

of motherhood and pregnancy and postpartum . So it's

44:32

really really cool and it's it does

44:34

have a really awesome like community feel

44:36

where people can kind of just come and find

44:39

solace in each other . Sorry

44:41

for all the baby hiccups by the way .

44:43

Oh my goodness , he's so cute . He's taking a sun tie , oh

44:45

yeah .

44:46

He's taking a sun tie . I love

44:48

the noises .

44:49

I know they are cute . I love

44:51

them too .

44:53

I love that you did that , though , like you are

44:55

, like you did what you needed

44:57

and I think that

44:59

is that is a felt experience

45:02

on your page and in your community is like

45:04

presence , engagement

45:06

and no judgment and realistic

45:09

expectations and normalizing

45:11

, and I just I mean just you

45:13

know , the size of my following is something that was like

45:16

never in my wildest dreams , but it really just

45:18

show how much a place like that was

45:20

needed for parents .

45:21

Yeah right Kind of alternative information

45:23

, because when you Google you're only finding a very

45:25

select viewpoint

45:28

Right For sleep

45:30

stuff .

45:30

So , yeah , yeah , I

45:33

think it's really important what you're doing and that

45:35

people do have access to more

45:38

than one voice .

45:39

Yeah , that's right . Marley

45:42

and Rachel , thank you very much . It was

45:44

so good to have you .

45:45

Yeah , thank you so much . Thank you so much for having us

45:47

from Marley's first podcast

45:50

experience . Let me go .

45:51

You did great , you did great .

45:53

Thank you very much .

45:54

All right , thanks y'all . That was

45:56

a lovely conversation . Do

45:58

I say that after every interview ? I feel

46:01

like I did .

46:01

I'm not sure you say lovely . One of the highlights

46:04

for me was all the baby

46:06

cooing .

46:06

Yeah .

46:07

And y'all couldn't see what . Marley was just sort of back there

46:09

bouncing her the whole time . Yeah

46:11

, she was adorable , for sure . So special

46:13

.

46:14

You know , I think what I loved

46:17

about that conversation was

46:19

just the idea that the conversation

46:21

about sleep is not

46:24

a static conversation . It's

46:26

one that changes

46:28

, and it can change day to day , week to week

46:30

, whatever it might be , it could change from

46:32

kid to kid . Because

46:36

I think that that's where this

46:38

conversation can feel really hard for couples is

46:40

they're like you were saying but

46:42

we decided and we were going to do this , and

46:45

now we're not doing that

46:47

and that can feel really stuck

46:49

and I think it can make couples feel really polarized

46:52

, Like we are this .

46:53

Now you want to be that . I mean you've said that about me a hundred

46:55

times that I can sort of be

46:57

one side , kind of go back and forth , yeah , back and forth . But there has

46:59

to be a lot of shades

47:02

of gray in that conversation and

47:04

a lot of conversation . But

47:07

I think when done with openness and

47:09

curiosity , it can be a real invitation

47:11

to understanding each other and each experience

47:13

.

47:14

And I really like what Marley said too Just being

47:16

compassionate to yourself as

47:19

a parent , I think there is so

47:21

much pressure to get this right and to get

47:23

your kids sleeping according to some

47:25

standard that is out

47:27

there , all that kind of stuff where it's

47:29

like I think for some parents too , they don't have

47:31

that standard thing . You and I didn't

47:34

Sure .

47:35

But we still felt the pressure to want

47:38

to sleep . Yes , we still felt resentful

47:40

Because we were tired . But I'm

47:42

not really sure why . Maybe

47:44

because we're not really internet savvy .

47:46

I'm not even joking , but we just didn't

47:48

have a lot of input . That's true . It was so long

47:50

ago . The internet really wasn't around , yet you

47:53

still had to plug something into a wall .

47:55

No , well , I kind of mean that , though Not

47:57

in terms of our cake .

47:59

Right .

48:00

But just because we didn't have an outside

48:02

or an external pressure to , they should

48:04

be doing this . We still wanted more sleep

48:06

.

48:06

The pressure was we wanted to sleep , yeah , and we still

48:09

reasoned to you got more than me , yeah .

48:12

By 17 minutes .

48:13

Yes , I did and I

48:15

think that again , the

48:17

flexibility , the compassion , I think if

48:19

you can come to it just

48:21

even with those two things , because

48:24

I think it

48:27

just gets so charged so

48:29

quickly and oftentimes

48:31

it's just because people feel really anxious about

48:33

getting it right and trying to

48:35

do it right .

48:37

And take care of

48:39

not only that , but their kid , but their partner

48:42

, their own self , and they're

48:44

like family we want to

48:46

be well . All of us do . Yeah

48:49

. So there is like are we

48:51

, are you , am I , are they

48:53

? It's a lot .

48:55

Yeah , it sure can be , and

48:57

so I really appreciate Marley

48:59

and Rachel for just sharing that with us , and

49:02

you should check out . Rachel

49:04

on hey Sleepy Baby . That's

49:06

her website too . She's got a lot of great

49:08

resources and just a lot of great things

49:11

that help you remember to be

49:13

flexible , you remember to be compassionate

49:16

. Just her post and her quotes

49:18

and her content , I think , can

49:20

help couples foster

49:23

that ethos in their relationship

49:25

. Today's show was produced

49:27

by Aaron and Stephen Mitchell . If you're

49:30

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49:40

grateful for you listening . Thanks

49:45

so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling

49:47

for Parents . And remember , working

49:49

on a healthy couple relationship is

49:52

good parenting .