0:01

Hello and welcome . This is Couples Counseling

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for Parents a show about couple

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relationships , how they work , why

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they don't , what you can do to fix

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what's broken . Here are our parents

0:12

our dad , dr Stephen Mitchell

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, and our mom , erin Mitchell . Hello

0:18

and thanks for joining us today on Couples Counseling for Parents

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. I'm Dr Stephen Mitchell .

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I'm Erin Mitchell and we're

0:24

excited to be here with you . I think this is

0:26

a really important podcast . So yeah

0:29

, I don't know that I would have said excited

0:31

. I think it feels really important .

0:33

Well , maybe that's what I feel too . I feel

0:35

so , let me tell you . Let me tell

0:37

you what I've been thinking about everybody

0:40

, because I've been thinking about this podcast

0:42

and what we're going to talk about today , and

0:48

some of it is well , not some of it . All of it is because of some interactions we've

0:50

been having with our community . And

0:52

I think , I don't know , a week or two

0:55

ago , aaron

0:58

had posted something about kind

1:01

of living life without involved

1:04

grandparents . You know , maybe due to they're

1:08

not , they don't live close , or

1:10

maybe it's not the healthiest relationship , or

1:12

you know a myriad of other reasons . And

1:15

then also , aaron is going to

1:17

be starting this group called mothering without

1:20

a mother , and just talking

1:22

about what it is like

1:24

, I mean , the name is pretty self-explanatory

1:27

. I was about to explain the name , but it sounds

1:29

pretty clear , right ?

1:31

Yes , but I think I am starting

1:33

a group for Mothers Without

1:35

Mothers , and that is for

1:38

any reason . I think you mentioned some of those

1:40

like living far away , you

1:42

don't have your mother in the day-to-day interactions

1:44

, estrangement

1:53

, bad , bad relationship , passed away . Um , there are a lot of reasons um that

1:55

people end up in this situation and um , it's not great , it's

1:57

hard , it's taxing , it's it's

1:59

taxing on um , like on myself

2:02

, um , but also it's a

2:04

lot to navigate um for

2:06

the whole family I think one of the things

2:08

we're going to talk about is like the impact

2:10

that it has on our kids and that impact

2:12

that impact has on us , and

2:14

then also the the strain and the tax

2:17

that it can , it can have on a couple where

2:19

like . We are our only resource

2:22

. We are like , like , and

2:24

that's not bad , it's just , it

2:26

is a reality .

2:28

Yeah , yeah , and kind of in

2:30

light , so thinking about that . Also , if

2:32

you do want to know about that group , just subscribe

2:34

to our newsletter . We are going to be

2:36

sending out information each week

2:38

about the group to remind

2:40

people that it's happening before

2:43

it launches .

2:44

You can also just email and we

2:47

can add you that way .

2:48

But yeah , yeah , yeah , sure , anyway . But

2:51

so all these things have had

2:53

me thinking about . And then also , I guess

2:55

, if I'm honest , like some of the things

2:57

that we have been kind

3:00

of dealing with as a couple just being

3:02

parents and running a business and

3:04

you know we don't have any family here where we live I'm kind of dealing with as a couple just

3:07

being parents and running a business , and

3:09

you know we don't have any family here

3:11

where we live . You know , our parents I

3:13

mean , both of your parents are no longer living . My

3:15

dad's not living , not

3:18

super close with my mom . So

3:31

just some of these realities , and I think it just made me think about how lonely couples feel

3:33

sometimes in this stage of their life as parents and as partners . There's

3:36

just this overwhelming sense of

3:38

like it's

3:41

just me , it's just

3:43

us , and

3:48

it's just me , it's just us , and I think that that loneliness can really

3:50

weigh heavily on a couple . I feel like it's weighed heavily on

3:52

us at times , like without

3:54

like awareness , and

3:57

then what begins to happen

3:59

is you're fighting

4:01

, there's conflict , there's resentment

4:03

. You're

4:06

fighting , there's conflict , there's resentment . There's sort of just

4:08

a flavor of like disappointment and like lack

4:10

of contentment in

4:13

your relationship and in your life

4:15

and I think some of it does stem

4:17

to this feeling of just like I feel

4:19

really alone and I don't feel

4:21

like I have help . And I think when

4:23

a partner feels like that , then they

4:25

look to their partner , you

4:27

know . So Steven feels that way . He

4:31

looks to Aaron and says

4:33

help me not feel alone . But Aaron

4:36

feels alone already and she's looking to

4:38

Steven saying an intensification of that feeling of loneliness

4:40

. Yes , I

4:56

want to take a nap . I

4:58

feel really sad talking about that

5:00

.

5:00

I think that there is great sadness , and I think that's part

5:02

of it , because I think that that's a little bit of

5:04

the complicated nature

5:07

of this topic , because , um

5:09

, our lives are rich and good

5:11

sure yeah and I think a lot

5:13

of the couples we talk to would say the same like we have so

5:16

much , to be thankful for and you

5:18

know , like I , I did a post a

5:20

long time ago made about , like our , I'm

5:22

feeling our house is filling up with people , but

5:25

I've never felt so alone um

5:27

like because like and it's and

5:30

, and you

5:32

know , like it's , just , it's a , it's one of those paradoxes

5:34

where to say that some

5:37

like you're in a lonely season of life doesn't mean it's

5:39

only lonely or that , like

5:41

I , don't enjoy our interactions

5:43

right , right .

5:44

I'm not happy with my absolutely kids

5:46

or relationship because that's the

5:48

segue here .

5:49

is that like ? So , yes , you mentioned the grandparents

5:52

, um , and like our connection to our families

5:54

, but there are a lot of , um

5:56

, sort of thematic reasons . Couples in

5:58

this season of their life feel

6:01

this way . I including , but not

6:03

limited to people , have moved

6:05

. We live in a city that

6:07

is very transient , so

6:09

your neighbors are here one day , or

6:12

maybe one day , maybe a couple of years or

6:14

something , and then there's a new job in a

6:16

new city and they're gone and we've

6:18

been that neighbor quite a few times We've

6:20

moved a lot for your school

6:23

and fellowships and jobs

6:25

and research and it's

6:27

moved us a lot and it's hard to feel

6:30

rooted , even

6:32

if it's not to family . It's hard to feel rooted

6:34

, even to your own community and friends when

6:37

people are moving a lot

6:39

.

6:40

And something I've been thinking about , just even personally

6:42

too . I think that this stage of life , for

6:45

adults , it's just hard to have friends

6:47

. You work , you have

6:49

kids , you're busy

6:51

and and it's

6:53

like . So when , like like , if I look

6:55

at my life and I'm like you

6:58

know , it's not all that free time . Yeah , there's

7:00

not a lot of free time . It's not not like I'm

7:02

sitting there planning

7:06

a bunch of get-togethers with

7:08

friends , outside of doing

7:11

things as a couple or doing things

7:14

with the kids' sports teams

7:16

or those kinds of things Sorry

7:18

go ahead . But I'm just saying I think people

7:21

also feel like I don't

7:24

know how to make friends right now . I don't

7:26

know , I don't know when I would

7:28

, I don't know when I would spend time doing

7:31

that kind of stuff .

7:32

And that is an important part of life

7:34

and relationship too , and sure , I

7:36

think a lot of times , um , friendships

7:39

have seasons and I think

7:42

that that's a really complicated thing

7:44

to recognize also . So you

7:46

, I've had best friends . I have a group

7:48

of friends I've had since preschool . I have

7:50

a group of friends I've had since my freshman

7:52

year of high school . I have , um , like different

7:55

groups of friends , but we

7:57

had kids first , I mean we had kids

7:59

last out of your group of friends and kids first

8:02

out of my group of friends um and

8:04

that absolutely immediately and

8:06

instantly puts you in different sort

8:08

of friend groups

8:11

like where you're just doing different things

8:13

at different times , and that's

8:15

not bad , but it's hard . So

8:17

then your new friend group becomes the

8:19

friends who have kids your age .

8:22

Right .

8:22

But they might be a new friend group . So like

8:24

, maybe you don't say all the things that are going

8:26

on . Yeah , we talk about our kids

8:28

and we talk about what we're doing as parents

8:30

, but do I really share how

8:33

much disconnection ?

8:35

me and you feel no Like oh no , we aren't

8:37

that . How deep do we go here ? Yes , exactly . I'm

8:40

also just thinking you mentioned

8:42

some periods of your life where you

8:44

had friends . I'm also just thinking , like

8:46

you mentioned some periods of your life where you had friends and

8:50

I was just like I didn't really make friends

8:52

till college . That

8:57

kind of makes me feel like maybe I wasn't so good at making

9:00

friends Because I wouldn't say like I just was having a little

9:02

moment of self-reflection . It was

9:04

like , hmm , that feels sad even

9:06

, I guess , in terms of how I am

9:08

and my personality and how

9:11

I can or can't make friends .

9:12

I think that's another really important thing

9:14

to consider as a couple . So

9:17

I lived in the same

9:19

house from seven until

9:21

my mom passed away and that house was gone . And

9:23

before I was seven I lived in away and that house was gone Um , and

9:25

before I was seven I lived in the

9:27

house on the same street . We

9:29

, we literally moved . I forget how many houses done . I

9:31

knew at one point it was 10 or so um

9:34

up the street and it was devastating

9:36

. Yeah , like my community was very much my community

9:38

. So having that change in my adult

9:40

life like that has not been the case for us .

9:43

Right in

9:46

my adult life like that has not been the case for

9:48

us . Right , I've moved so much right um , but that was your life yeah

9:50

, I moved a good bit .

9:51

Yes , um , which isn't . There's not like a good

9:53

or a bad . There's , there's um , but

9:55

it is a different experience . So we come to these

9:57

things , we even approach when we've talked about this a thousand

10:00

times . It is very important to me that our kids

10:02

feel rooted , and it is really

10:04

difficult for me to imagine how to do that

10:06

without aunts , uncles , cousins

10:09

right the first grade teacher who lives .

10:11

I know where exactly they live and

10:13

um your first grade teacher

10:15

that you grew up with , you mean yeah well

10:18

yeah , he actually didn't , but sure , yeah

10:20

, I know exactly where she lives um , but like

10:22

yes , I'm saying you want

10:24

our kids to be that connected or like

10:26

oh , that's Mrs Johnson's house

10:28

.

10:30

And you know that kind of Mrs Lowry yeah .

10:32

Miss Lowry , yes , but like that

10:34

kind of sense of rootedness and connectedness

10:37

is , it

10:40

can contribute to your feeling of loneliness

10:42

, even as a parent at

10:44

this stage of life , because you're like I don't feel like

10:46

we have that .

10:47

And I think that we end up wanting to . Yes

10:50

, I think it can contribute , but I also think it can feel

10:52

like oh , but the only rubric

10:54

I have is what I knew yeah , yeah

10:56

, yeah , so like oh .

10:57

So what do I do ? What do we do ? How do ?

10:59

we do this ? How do we navigate this ? And

11:02

um , and I think a lot of people

11:04

are happy . I was so happy

11:06

moving around when it was just the two of us yeah

11:08

we loved it . We lived in seattle , we lived

11:10

in bozeman , montana . We lived like we , we

11:12

moved and felt like , honestly , like

11:14

it was this epic adventure . Um

11:17

I we have so many pictures of like the

11:19

first night . We would sleep in a little tiny apartment , like

11:21

having dinner , like we just saw one recently

11:23

um where , where Steven made like this makeshift dinner out

11:25

of like some folding chairs and like some

11:27

sort of table .

11:28

It wasn't a real table , but he like made a table

11:31

out of it . It's one of our many moves , yeah , and like this

11:33

is like our first dinner there and we

11:35

have a lot of those and that felt sweet and good to

11:37

me , until we had a kid and I was like so

11:40

this person you thought I was ?

11:42

that was fine , but I am a different person now

11:44

.

11:45

And so I think that

11:47

a lot of couples deal

11:50

with this feeling of loneliness and

11:53

I think two couples can feel

11:55

bad . They

11:58

can feel like

12:00

is something wrong ? Did we do something wrong ?

12:02

You shouldn't feel lonely , but can also feel personal right

12:04

.

12:05

Say more .

12:06

Like if I'm lonely , or

12:09

frankly , like if you're , if you were saying you're really

12:11

lonely , like well , I'm

12:13

right here .

12:14

Oh , yeah , like I should be , yeah , yeah

12:26

, like , why are you lonely if I'm here ? We've got our family , you know , yes , and so , honestly , that's really

12:28

interesting because I think that that's a dynamic or even a conversation that happens so like

12:30

one that we've had , where , you know , aaron , you're like we need this rootedness

12:32

, we need , you know I need to .

12:34

I wanted to go home , I wanted to live by my mom .

12:35

There was no other possible

12:38

scenario and I was always like but we've got each

12:40

other and you know we can home , can be here

12:42

, like what we create and all

12:44

that kind of stuff which was the story you grew up , right

12:46

? Right and um , you

12:49

know , to some extent .

12:50

Yeah , yeah , I wouldn't .

12:51

Yeah , it wasn't always yeah

12:53

home was interesting for me , um

12:55

, but but at least my siblings

12:57

, you know , were who I was close with and

12:59

what felt like home . And so I think

13:01

, even in that there's just

13:03

this disconnect or this feeling of like

13:06

that we walk away

13:08

feeling lonely , where you're like why can't

13:10

you see how important

13:12

this is and see

13:14

this aspect of my life and who I am

13:17

? And then I

13:19

think , like why can't we just be enough

13:22

? and you right

13:24

bloom where we're planted , you know do that kind of thing

13:26

and so I think you get into these conversations

13:28

, but I but I think it's but

13:32

go ahead .

13:32

I think I think we all , all , oh

13:35

my , I think all of us at

13:37

certain times feel misunderstood

13:39

in our loneliness and I think to be perfectly

13:41

. it's because we don't actually understand

13:44

our loneliness , because who among

13:46

us is sitting around reflecting on

13:48

you know , like you know , the thing

13:50

we say all the time is you

13:53

have to actually know what you're trying

13:55

to communicate before you start talking . But

13:57

mostly we don't . We

13:59

start talking first and try to figure it out as we

14:01

go . That's not a great communication

14:03

skill but it is often , especially

14:05

for parents , you know , like I

14:07

don't , like I'm going to get to that when I get to that , and

14:13

that is not today , um , but it doesn't change our feelings .

14:15

We just don't necessarily understand what they're about , right , and I think that

14:17

that's really important , that that

14:19

I think first of all , like that

14:21

couples can acknowledge that

14:23

we do feel lonely and that doesn't mean

14:25

you've done anything wrong , it doesn't mean that there's

14:27

anything wrong with you . I do think

14:29

that that is an aspect of this developmental

14:31

stage in a couple's life that

14:34

they can feel lonely , and it doesn't

14:36

mean every couple out there does . But

14:38

there is a subset of

14:40

couples that do , and that's normal and that's okay

14:42

, a subset of couples that do , and that's normal and that's okay

14:44

. But you do then have to recognize

14:47

, like , okay , what is that ? How does that loneliness

14:50

impact our relationship

14:53

? And then what can

14:55

we do about it ? Because it is impacting

14:57

your relationship

14:59

and I think that , to your point is

15:01

, you individually have to understand

15:04

like , well , what does loneliness mean

15:06

?

15:07

So I think , for me personally

15:09

and I don't know if I'm

15:11

answering your question , but I think I

15:13

mislabeled my loneliness for

15:15

the first four years

15:18

of our kids' lives , of our

15:20

oldest kids , I guess um of

15:22

us becoming parents , rather as

15:24

me , disliking your job like

15:26

the problem is your work yeah

15:29

, yeah , like you are too invested at your

15:31

job . And if you weren't working ? so

15:33

much , and if you weren't so committed to

15:36

um advancing to

15:38

be fair for our family , sure

15:40

, sure , sure all the while and I think

15:42

this is almost universal that

15:45

when you become parents , you want

15:47

more time as a family and you suddenly need

15:49

exponentially more money . Right

15:51

, right which typically for most people means

15:53

you have to figure out new work

15:55

, more work , different work so

15:58

these things . They are competing

16:00

. They don't usually

16:02

work well together , and so I think

16:04

I was very lonely um

16:07

because that we moved very

16:09

shortly after we had our kids to for

16:11

a fellowship like for this career

16:14

advancement . It was going to be better yeah and

16:16

it was hard and I said , oh

16:18

, I'm lonely because of

16:20

that thing right you are doing

16:22

and that is taking you away

16:24

from me . There's truth in that , but that

16:26

wasn't the whole truth of it

16:28

.

16:28

It was a really good and easy

16:31

excuse . But

16:33

that's what I mean . Does that answer your question ? Yeah

16:35

, yeah , yeah , but I was even thinking , yes

16:37

, that does . But I also think

16:39

, just on a deeper level . I think for me

16:41

, one of the things that

16:43

I have to , so

16:46

, one of the things I've realized in our relationship , is

16:48

, I

16:51

generally think I'm a pretty good dad

16:53

and as a husband , is that I can , I can tend or trend towards

17:07

being stressed

17:10

and overwhelmed , which makes me disengaged

17:12

and moody

17:15

, and that I

17:17

can get kind of and

17:20

that can be like an energy suck

17:22

, like a black hole of like , just

17:25

like sucking the energy out

17:27

of our family system . And

17:30

I think how I

17:32

have experienced that is I'm like it's

17:34

situational , right , it's like , oh , it's like

17:36

I need a different job , or oh , we just need some more money

17:38

, or oh , it's where we live , or oh , we just

17:40

need , you know , I

17:43

need Aaron to , you know , just act this way , or I need the kids

17:45

to do this , or I just need the house to be cleaner

17:47

, you know , or whatever it is Like , and

17:50

I've kind of like gone through like

17:52

with that attitude and spirit . But

17:55

I think , as time has gone on , what

17:57

I realized is I'm just really

17:59

lonely , and , and

18:01

I'm just really lonely . And I'm lonely not

18:04

because I'm dissatisfied in my relationship

18:06

with you or in my relationship with

18:08

the kids , or even in my job or even what

18:10

I'm doing . I'm lonely

18:12

because I've had that

18:14

feeling ever

18:17

since I was little and

18:20

I've never really known what to do with it

18:22

. And the reason I've had that feeling of

18:24

loneliness is because of just my experience

18:27

, my experience growing

18:29

up . You know , I didn't have the

18:32

best , I didn't have a good relationships

18:34

with my parents . My parents were angry

18:37

a lot and they fought a lot and they

18:40

were scary and I

18:42

you know my dad was kind

18:44

of this big scary dude who had a temper

18:47

and you know my mom was

18:49

had a temper and was scary

18:52

and it felt

18:54

like I couldn't , I

18:56

couldn't go be close with them

18:58

because it was frightening

19:00

to be close with them . And so

19:03

as a little kid I remember oftentimes

19:06

just a feeling of

19:08

like like feeling

19:11

like absolutely alone and

19:13

unsure of what to do . Thankfully

19:16

I was had two

19:18

siblings and we had good relationships

19:20

, but I think they felt pretty lonely too

19:22

. You know , we did the best we could as kids

19:25

to kind of make that environment

19:27

feel better , but

19:34

I think what it did is like inside of me , like in my , like in my spirit . It caused me

19:36

to feel like there's no one

19:38

here for me ever

19:41

and I and I'm not trying

19:43

to be dramatic I had felt that way

19:45

as long as I can remember

19:48

and I think that I

19:50

go through life and as

19:52

I go through life , I have that

19:55

feeling of is there anyone

19:57

here for me ? When you run into

19:59

these big scary things of

20:01

trying to live life , of trying to be an adult

20:03

, of having kids , of having

20:06

a relationship , of running

20:09

a business , of trying to survive

20:11

, like all of these things where you , where

20:14

, if you had like kind of

20:16

something inside of yourself

20:18

that helped you feel like

20:21

you weren't alone or that you belonged

20:23

somewhere or that you were connected

20:25

somewhere , like things would

20:27

feel different . And I think that , at

20:30

least for me , like what I've realized

20:32

about the loneliness is it is located

20:34

in that , oh sure , and

20:37

that directly impacts

20:39

how I bring

20:41

myself to our relationship and how I bring

20:44

myself to being a dad . And

20:47

I think that oftentimes I

20:49

find

20:52

that in the couples

20:54

that we talk with , I find that to be true

20:56

for a lot of people and yet

20:58

they're not really aware that they're

21:00

dealing with that kind

21:03

of absence and

21:06

that that absence from before

21:09

intimately connects their present

21:11

. So I think that that's another level

21:13

of like you're kind of . That's how you

21:16

experience loneliness . It's your job . I

21:18

think I've experienced it more in that internal

21:20

like wow , like

21:23

I'm dealing

21:25

with a really powerful feeling

21:27

that I've had my whole life . But

21:29

I'm calling it something else and

21:31

I'm and I'm and

21:34

I'm uh , and I'm

21:36

kind of trying to fix it like

21:38

by you know , uh

21:41

, fixing you or fixing the kids or

21:43

doing a lot yeah .

21:44

Yeah , I think , I think , yes

21:47

, I mean , I think that's a really powerful story I

21:49

can like , I can feel

21:51

that . I think I think that's very

21:53

relatable . I imagine a lot of people listening have

21:56

a version of that . I don't think it's

21:58

the same . I think a lot of people had

22:00

very physically present parents , but I think a lot of people had very

22:02

um physically present parents , but I think a lot of us

22:04

experienced a nurture gap um

22:07

I think uh just sort of

22:09

like because of the way parenting styles

22:11

were at that time . I yeah , not

22:13

everybody um , but I think

22:16

yes so like I think some people will be like oh

22:18

, but my parents were there . But then when you really

22:20

think about it , like , well , I

22:22

think they wanted to be you know

22:24

like they they meant to be , they thought they

22:26

were , but . But just because we had

22:28

parents who had positive intentions , it doesn't mean

22:30

they were everything we needed , um

22:32

or that .

22:33

Yeah , and a parent can't be everything you need

22:35

, but but , but I do

22:37

think what that , that idea of the nurture guys

22:39

? Really I think that's a good way of saying it

22:41

.

22:41

Steven loves something I say every single podcast .

22:43

That's going to be the new takeaway . Well

22:47

, that's I .

22:47

Just I saw your face when I said it , like , oh

22:49

, that's going to be .

22:51

Yeah , so I think that that

22:53

is is really true

22:55

and that's a societal thing , a generational

22:57

thing , as you're saying . An understanding of parenting

23:00

, like you know , what we understand

23:02

about neuroscience and attachment and like

23:04

what brings healthy relationships

23:06

, is a lot different now than what we knew then , although

23:09

you know some of it is common

23:11

sense as well .

23:12

Well , some people knew it . Then my mom was very yeah

23:15

. But yeah , my point is

23:17

like I think it is relatable , even

23:19

if it's not like oh yeah , my parents

23:21

were scary , but like I

23:24

didn't always feel like I could come to them

23:26

If I had a big problem .

23:27

I can't remember being told I was loved by my

23:29

parents or I can't . You know , we didn't really hug much

23:32

, or there wasn't much affection or there wasn't much encouragement

23:34

, like that doesn't mean

23:36

your home was terrible , right , but it is an

23:39

absence right , it is something that can

23:41

leave you feeling that

23:43

message of there's no one here to

23:45

help me . I have to help myself , it's

23:48

all up to me , I'm

23:50

the only one I can rely on , I'm the only

23:52

one I can trust . I think that when there's messages

23:55

and stories like that that run through our

23:57

hearts and our minds , that

24:00

is an indication of that gap .

24:02

And then you think about us . I'm just going

24:04

to continue to give us an example . So you have

24:06

a me who wanted desperately

24:09

for , like , some sort

24:11

of a repeat family

24:13

experience . I

24:16

definitely wanted a different family makeup but

24:19

, yeah , like I expected that

24:21

my kids would be friends with

24:23

their friends . Like I am preschool

24:25

through , for you know , 40

24:28

.

24:28

And I expected my kids wouldn't have friends till

24:30

college . I don't think you

24:32

ever thought about it , but then okay

24:34

.

24:34

So someone like me , mary , someone like Steven , where , like

24:36

the you , what you really

24:39

wanted was to achieve and

24:41

to like . That is what made you feel safe and secure

24:43

.

24:43

I think and like the next achievement , next

24:45

achievement next achievement , not very relational , If you

24:47

know , it's just very I think it's

24:49

very relational . Well

24:51

, the the intention is like then

24:53

I'll be safe , Sure , sure , I won't be alone

24:56

.

24:57

So I think that and

25:07

it doesn't .

25:07

Maybe maybe the way I said it wasn't kind , but like I think that I didn't think it was unkind

25:09

, I just think it's that that achieving was much more like the accomplishing

25:12

of things is what helped me feel better , and so

25:14

that's very , a very task oriented

25:16

, task focused way of doing things , not really a relational way of connecting

25:18

way of doing things , not really a relational

25:20

way of connecting .

25:22

So I think I'm saying the same thing . No-transcript

25:33

, so

25:35

I think I did , but I feel like , I

25:38

just feel like to externally

25:40

be trying to achieve . So internally

25:42

, you feel like you can be

25:44

safe and secure is very relational

25:47

. It doesn't look relational

25:49

on paper If you write , I am task

25:51

focused like yeah that

25:53

doesn't look good .

25:54

You can tell I've done a lot of healing around this right

25:57

.

25:58

That's kind of why I'm looking at you like what are we talking about

26:00

? We've talked about this a million times .

26:01

I get it now , but like the .

26:02

How did someone come to be a task-oriented

26:05

person ? Because it's going to do

26:07

something internally to soothe or

26:09

help feel safe or protect or whatever

26:12

. But I'm just saying like

26:14

. So I'm like home forever

26:16

. We're going to live on the same street

26:18

and we're going to buy our first house when we

26:20

whatever . I don't know , and then we

26:22

live there forever . Right , and you're

26:24

like I'm going to achieve and

26:28

that requires to go to PhD school here , that requires an internship there , that requires

26:30

a fellowship here , I need to do research here and

26:32

that . And honestly , it was fine until

26:35

I said I had kids

26:37

, until we had kids . And then I said , like that

26:40

started to create panic in me , and

26:43

so I think a lot of couples

26:45

get to this Like wait a minute , though we had

26:47

agreed , like you knew

26:50

what was happening . And

26:53

I'm like well , yeah , I was happy to move then .

26:54

But yeah , so

27:02

in a way , I think what we we're a good question to ask yourself if you

27:04

are um in a parenting partner relationship and

27:06

you like I

27:09

think just in a relationship , yeah , yeah are

27:11

you aware of a feeling

27:14

of loneliness , if

27:16

you are ? A second question to

27:18

ask is how have you gone

27:20

about trying ?

27:23

to fix it .

27:24

You don't like those questions .

27:25

I love those questions , but I think like 1A

27:27

1A

27:29

go ahead .

27:30

1a .

27:30

How would someone know if they felt lonely ? Because

27:33

I think so many of us did not

27:35

learn to identify our emotions . So

27:37

, like what would loneliness maybe

27:39

look like ?

27:40

Yeah , so I think it

27:43

could look a lot of ways .

27:46

Agreed Already .

27:47

I think , like you know , a restlessness

27:49

, a discontentment , a

27:53

kind of angst

27:55

, a sort of this feeling of

27:57

like nothing's enough

27:59

. I got to get more a

28:02

feeling of emptiness , a

28:04

feeling of kind

28:07

of anxiety or constant

28:10

striving , a feeling of being

28:13

so externally focused

28:15

and so helpful to everyone else

28:18

and so concerned

28:20

with how everyone else is doing that you run

28:22

yourself into the ground and

28:24

you have no awareness of yourself

28:26

, like all kinds of things

28:28

.

28:28

I think to that point . Um

28:30

, I think a lot of lonely people are

28:32

out there making sure no

28:35

one else feels lonely .

28:36

So I think um yeah , or

28:38

like what like for me , to be quite honest , like

28:40

the way like just really withdrawn

28:42

, really like internal um

28:45

, not looking to connect

28:47

, I think both . Like both of these things

28:49

.

28:50

Yes , I think some I think some of us are like oh

28:52

, we all like eeyore seemed

28:54

lonely .

28:55

Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah but .

28:56

Eeyore , whatever , that's

28:58

a tale for a different day . But , I don't

29:00

think lonely looks . I don't

29:02

think we all know what it looks like , and so I think it's

29:04

like we're expecting it to look one thing . Well , I don't look

29:06

like that , so I'm not lonely .

29:08

I've got plenty of friends , I do

29:10

a lot of stuff , I'm very social

29:12

, I'm very extro , but none of that

29:14

has anything to do with in

29:17

yourself ?

29:17

do you feel known ?

29:21

Do you feel cared for ? Do you

29:24

feel solid within

29:26

yourself ? Do

29:28

you feel a sense of well-being

29:31

within

29:34

yourself , or do you feel like a

29:36

sense of emptiness and

29:38

a need to strive for something that's

29:40

not there ? That's what , all of those

29:42

things . I don't think it has to be either , or I like

29:44

the first part of that better .

29:45

I think this because the second part doesn't resonate

29:47

for me , but the first part certainly

29:50

does , so I think- .

29:51

Of the first part being Like

29:53

the .

29:55

Do you feel all the things

29:57

you just listed ? The first , but like

29:59

the striving , striving isn't I don't that

30:01

I mean , which doesn't mean it isn't true for

30:03

me , but that I'm not like oh yeah .

30:05

So I just don't think it has to be right , it's not

30:07

neither , or this is also like a maybe

30:09

, do you feel ?

30:10

known . Do you feel like those things I'm like

30:12

, ah , those are great guiding questions

30:14

um so that first

30:16

question of like do do I feel lonely ?

30:18

The one A of it is like what we just did

30:20

, like how would I maybe

30:22

know if I do or don't ? We just threw out some

30:24

ideas . And then I think there's the second

30:26

question of like and how have I gone about trying

30:28

to fix it ? How have

30:30

I gone about asking my partner to

30:33

fix it ?

30:34

And fix doesn't have to be a bad

30:36

word .

30:36

I don't mean it negatively , yeah .

30:38

But we're talking the difference

30:40

of engagement actually

30:43

having the opportunity to be known , to be

30:45

understood in this place , to connect or

30:47

like band-aids , or

30:49

feeling like my partner demands

30:52

this of me , Right ?

30:53

I think that's a band-aid For me .

30:55

It was like oh , if you get a different job . Finally

30:57

, when you finish your phd , if , oh

30:59

, if .

31:00

If there's always a like oh , I won't feel

31:02

lonely when right , yes

31:04

, like if there's whatever the fill in the blank

31:06

is , and you might have different answers to that .

31:08

For sure , each of you I I think I've

31:11

had 700 different answers in our 16

31:13

years like yeah , yeah yeah , I think that

31:15

, I think is a good indication , like , wait a minute

31:18

, because because our level , my

31:20

, my contentment , my , my

31:22

sense of self cannot be dependent upon Stephen

31:24

finishing a PhD , which doesn't mean qualitatively

31:27

our life wasn't immediately improved

31:29

because , to be clear , it was

31:31

so much better when that was over . It's a long

31:33

five years , oh my goodness

31:35

.

31:36

So asking yourself those questions

31:38

, and then I think part

31:40

of it is being able

31:42

, you know , after you have some answers

31:44

.

31:45

That internal part that we were talking about , those are you questions

31:48

that you ask yourself .

31:49

Then I think there's an external part of

31:51

like moving towards your partner and

31:54

asking them those same questions

31:56

and saying like are you aware of any of this for

31:58

yourself ? And

32:00

starting that conversation of

32:03

is our relationship being

32:05

impacted by a sense of

32:07

loneliness that we haven't

32:09

really been aware of ? Or

32:12

you are , or

32:15

we are right ? And then kind of having that conversation and

32:17

if the answer is like yes , maybe you

32:20

know , then I think , in terms of

32:22

being clear

32:24

with one another , then you can say like well

32:26

, is there anything that

32:28

we could do to

32:31

help that feel different

32:33

. And I think that primarily

32:36

like one of the things you can do

32:38

is to seek connection

32:40

. To seek connection with one another , but

32:42

to seek connection with others

32:44

around you , but

32:47

doing it in a

32:50

more purposeful way , from

32:52

a place of understanding yourself

32:54

and your partner and what you both

32:56

need . I mean . I think go

32:59

ahead .

33:00

I just like that . I like the part because I do

33:02

think for anything

33:04

to ever feel different , like really

33:07

feel different it has

33:09

to be known and understood and connected

33:11

on right .

33:12

Like you have to understand yourself .

33:14

You have to before you can hope

33:16

your partner will , and

33:19

then you have to before you can hope your partner will right um , and then and

33:21

then you move to action .

33:22

Right , I just I was just really resonating right like yes , I think because

33:24

I think already the connection .

33:25

I think there's relief in naming um

33:28

and I . It's not a thought , that's true , there's

33:30

a relief in like oh , this is what this is

33:32

it doesn't mean it changes anything , but there is a relief

33:34

in that , and then that's where you can

33:37

start trying to find action .

33:39

Yeah , like like there's even been , you know

33:41

, times where Aaron and I have talked about we're like

33:43

you know what we do , want to feel more

33:45

connected and then

33:47

where you can be like okay , like who

33:50

in our life ? You know who in our

33:52

life are people that we want

33:54

to be connected with , and you know

33:56

there's people here where we live in Denver . But

33:59

also , like I remember one of the specific

34:01

things we said is we are relative

34:03

. We are pretty close with my , with my

34:05

siblings and their kids

34:07

and their partners , and so

34:09

one of the things we've said is like we

34:11

want to be more connected to them

34:14

and

34:16

we have specifically

34:18

made efforts and plans

34:20

to be like this is how we're going to do that , this

34:22

is how we will see them . Our energies

34:25

, our efforts , our money goes

34:27

towards those kinds of

34:29

things Because we

34:31

have , you know , we've had that conversation

34:33

about like we want to be

34:36

connected . We don't feel connected . How can we be

34:38

? And so that's what I mean by from

34:40

that place of understanding you

34:42

and your partner can actually do

34:44

something that addresses your

34:46

loneliness together in

34:49

a purposeful and intentional way moving

34:53

forward .

34:55

I think it only furthers your point , but I think this is

34:57

something and you

34:59

may not always both feel

35:02

this at the same time so I

35:04

really wanted our kids to get to

35:06

live and grow up with cousins . I did

35:08

and

35:12

it was honestly life-giving for me . When

35:18

we were at my dad's house we basically lived at his sister's my aunt's house and

35:20

her two daughters made that time Okay For me , when it really wouldn't

35:22

have been without them life giving

35:25

for me . And so for me to imagine

35:27

my kids not like my

35:29

kids , having cousins they loved and

35:31

them not being around them . Just , I

35:34

couldn't . And and one thing

35:36

that , um , and that Steven didn't really

35:38

grow up close to his cousins , and not that he didn't want our kids

35:40

to be close to his cousins , but like um , no

35:42

, they can't .

35:43

No , no , no , but like that was , that just wasn't a value

35:45

, that wasn't um well , I would

35:47

say it was a value . I think it didn't like cause

35:49

you to lose sleep right like oh yeah , this is how it

35:51

happens , we'll see them and we go like aaron , we

35:54

go no like

35:56

I need to know that you are willing , like

35:58

I need the commitment from you that , like , we

36:00

will spend money . Yeah .

36:03

Even when money is scarce , we will find

36:05

a way to go and be

36:07

with them Right Every year . We will see all

36:09

cousins every year .

36:10

Yeah , at least Hopefully , sometimes . More , yeah , more

36:12

yeah , as much as possible , you know

36:14

bare minimum , and that is a way

36:16

that Steven could move towards me in

36:19

something that felt very specific

36:21

to something I wanted . Well

36:24

, and it's been such an enriching part of our life

36:26

and our kids' lives . Yeah , and in no way

36:28

do I mean to say that , like Steven , didn't value that yeah

36:30

, I did yeah .

36:32

Until we are able to say like these are the things

36:34

I really want . Like this

36:36

would make me feel more connected . This thing

36:39

would make me feel more rooted to hear

36:41

your partner say back I will prioritize

36:43

that .

36:44

Like .

36:44

I don't understand it , but I don't have to understand it

36:46

to get that it's a value for you . Okay

36:48

, like , how do we map this out ? Like , let's

36:51

work on this and maybe , you know , maybe

36:53

that can't be a goal this year , maybe we can't say

36:55

yes , we will spend a

36:57

thousand dollars on plane tickets . Like

36:59

we can't do that , but I hear you and we will save

37:01

and plan and we will do that . Right

37:04

, so I'm just saying so there

37:06

can be verbal validation and practical

37:09

action .

37:10

So the questions being am

37:12

I feeling lonely ? How

37:15

would I know that ? He gave some examples . How

37:21

am I trying to fix that loneliness ? Or how am I trying to ask my partner

37:23

to fix that loneliness ? Asking

37:26

yourself those questions , then asking your partner

37:28

those questions and then together

37:31

making a plan of action

37:33

for well , what can we do that

37:36

could address this loneliness

37:39

in a way that helps us both

37:41

feel supported and

37:44

connected ? Today's

37:46

show was produced by Aaron and Stephen Mitchell

37:48

. If you're enjoying the podcast , please

37:50

hit the follow button and leave us a rating . This

37:53

helps our content become more visible to others

37:55

who might enjoy it , and it lets us

37:57

know how we can keep improving the show . And

37:59

, as always , we're grateful for you listening

38:01

. Thanks

38:04

so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling

38:06

for Parents . And remember , working

38:09

on a healthy couple relationship is

38:11

good parenting

38:14

.