0:01

Hello and welcome , mrs Couples Counseling

0:03

for Parents . They show about couple

0:05

relationships , how they work , why

0:07

they don't , what you can do to fix

0:10

what's broken . Hiya parents , our

0:12

Dad , dr Steven Mitchell , and our

0:15

Mom and Mitchell .

0:18

Hello and welcome to Couples Counseling for Parents . I'm

0:20

Dr Steven Mitchell , and on

0:22

today's show we have the distinct

0:24

pleasure of being able to interview Nate

0:26

and Kaylee Klimp . Nate

0:29

and Kaylee are authors of the New York

0:31

Times Editor's Choice Selection

0:33

, the 8080 Marriage a new

0:35

model for a happier , stronger marriage

0:38

. Nate is also the co-author of

0:40

a New York Times bestseller Start here

0:42

. Master the Lifelong Habit of

0:44

Well-Being and Open living

0:46

with an expansive mind in a distracted

0:49

world . He holds a BA , an

0:51

MA and philosophy from Stanford

0:53

University and a PhD from

0:55

Princeton University . Kaylee

0:57

is one of the nation's leading experts

0:59

on small group dynamics and leadership

1:01

development , a TEDx speaker and

1:04

the author of three other books , including

1:06

the Amazon Bestseller the 15

1:09

Commitments of Conscious Leadership , the

1:11

Drama Free Office and 13

1:13

Guidelines for Effective Teams . She

1:15

is a graduate of Stanford University , where

1:18

she earned a BA in International Relations

1:20

and an MA in Sociology , with

1:22

a focus on organizational behavior

1:24

. We are so excited

1:27

to be able to talk to Nate and Kaylee

1:29

today , and we are specifically going

1:31

to be talking with them about their book , the 8080

1:34

Marriage . We

1:37

hope that you enjoy this conversation

1:39

as much as Aaron and I

1:41

did , and we're just going

1:43

to go ahead and jump right in . Hey

1:45

, nate and Kaylee , thank you so much

1:48

for being with us

1:50

today . I'm very excited about this conversation

1:52

.

1:52

Really excited to be here .

1:53

Thanks for having us Looking forward to it . Thank

1:56

you so much for being on .

1:57

Great . Let's

2:00

just start off with this

2:02

concept the 8080 Marriage

2:05

. I'm sure

2:08

a lot of people see that and they're like what

2:11

does that ? Mean If

2:14

you had your elevator pitch , you're

2:16

in the elevator . Somebody

2:18

says , hey , what is the 8080

2:21

Marriage ? What

2:23

are we talking about ? What would you say ?

2:26

Well , it's a model for relationships

2:29

that's really born out of two things

2:31

for us . One is our

2:33

own experience in our life , having

2:36

spent a decade or so at the beginning of our

2:38

marriage locked in

2:40

this just like battle for fairness

2:42

, trying to figure out why didn't it work , why couldn't we ever

2:44

get out of it . Then the other piece of it is , once

2:46

we saw that predicament

2:49

clearly , we started to think maybe

2:51

it's about more than just us , and wouldn't

2:53

it be interesting to interview about 100

2:56

or so people who are in a similar

2:58

stage of life with kids , trying

3:01

to figure out this predicament of modern marriage

3:03

? That's really what led

3:05

us to this exploration

3:07

. To your question , what is the 8080

3:10

Marriage ? We think that our current

3:12

generation is unique in all of human history

3:14

. We're the first generation trying to figure

3:16

out how to have an egalitarian

3:18

marriage where we're both equals . We have these models

3:21

that are handed down from our parents and our grandparents

3:23

which kind of work but kind

3:26

of don't work at the same time . The

3:29

default , we think , is this model

3:31

of 5050 , where we try to make

3:33

everything fair and we can talk more about why that

3:35

doesn't work . We think there's a much

3:37

better alternative , which is something more like

3:39

what we call 8080 . The basic

3:41

idea being what if you were to think

3:43

about contributing at 80%

3:46

instead of 50% ? I mean

3:48

, the math doesn't work , but

3:50

we think that's a really powerful

3:52

mindset shift that can really radically change

3:54

the culture of a relationship .

3:57

I think that word fairness

3:59

is like . So

4:01

I think , aaron , would you say it is one

4:04

of the biggest conflicts

4:06

that we hear partners

4:08

trying to navigate this idea of

4:10

who's doing more , who's not doing enough

4:13

, and then there's this sort

4:15

of great debate

4:17

that begins to happen between couples

4:19

Well , I did this , this was the list . I did

4:21

no , this is what I did Well , what you did

4:23

well , that didn't really matter , that wasn't as hard

4:26

or as difficult or as big as what I was

4:28

doing . Those kinds of things I feel like

4:30

we have those kinds of conversations

4:32

constantly .

4:34

Sure , I mean easily one of the

4:37

biggest , because even

4:39

if the topic is different , ultimately

4:42

it still boils down to that . So even if we're fighting

4:44

about sleep or we're fighting about

4:46

I don't know dishes , it doesn't

4:48

really matter Anything in a day it

4:51

can be this . I think what the

4:53

word I picked up on it was that the

4:55

mindset because I think there is

4:57

this angsty

5:00

bodily feeling of

5:02

it doesn't

5:05

feel fair .

5:06

Yeah .

5:07

So it does feel like more of a mindset rather than a balanced

5:09

sheet .

5:10

Well , kaylee , what is the mindset I

5:15

mean ? I think we know what that word means

5:17

, but specifically here

5:19

, how does that apply ?

5:22

I think you're already several

5:24

steps ahead of most couples

5:26

in that you've noticed that

5:29

the fights that look like they're about

5:31

sleep or that look like they're about dishes

5:33

are actually about fairness . And

5:35

I say that because in our interviews

5:37

with these 100 people , we

5:39

would ask them well so do you fight about

5:41

fairness ? And they'd look at us and be like no

5:44

, no , we never fight about fairness . And

5:46

then they would tell us all these stories about how they were fighting

5:49

about fairness , and so the

5:52

mindset is that of scorekeeping

5:54

when you're in 50-50 . And

5:57

there is this notion that there's going to

5:59

be some sort of magical equilibrium

6:02

point where what we're doing perfectly

6:04

balances and it's fair . And

6:07

all nod in the direction

6:10

of folks that it's not

6:12

the worst idea we've ever had . Like

6:14

trying to be peoples and in love

6:16

, fairness isn't a terrible idea

6:18

. It just doesn't work . It's

6:20

a super clunky technology . So

6:22

the mindset of 80-80

6:25

, of radical generosity , is

6:27

really striving to

6:29

contribute 80% , which

6:32

is where I get to drop that

6:34

scorekeeping , drop that ledger and

6:37

try to overshoot the mean , recognizing

6:39

that I probably land

6:41

somewhere around balanced

6:44

. But I get to drop how much energy

6:46

goes into exactly what you were

6:48

describing here and , like the

6:50

tit for tatting , I woke

6:53

up in the middle of the night and got

6:55

water for our kid who was upset

6:57

. That counts for at least

6:59

two times taking out the trash Now

7:02

you owe me . But the

7:04

extra trip to do the carpool

7:06

pickup , does that count as calling

7:08

your mom ? Because I mean , let's be clear

7:10

, talking to the extended family , that should , at

7:12

least count for double the . It's

7:15

wild what we get into .

7:20

So what I think is this is what

7:22

I was so fascinated by and was

7:24

really . I was like it feels

7:26

very like

7:28

. I feel like , well , yeah , I should have known that

7:30

, but I just didn't think about it until

7:32

I was reading the book and I was like

7:35

this is the idea that just really

7:37

stuck with me . Kaylee

7:39

and Nate , when you're talking about that mindset

7:42

of I'm trying to be radically

7:45

generous , the

7:47

person you're focused on is yourself

7:49

and not looking

7:52

at your partner and what your partner's

7:54

doing and keeping that score

7:56

and saying you know , kind of like all of those

7:58

things . It is a mindset

8:01

that is meant to like direct you

8:04

as an individual , and

8:06

I think that that's a really important

8:09

aspect of that mindset , because

8:11

it's that idea of

8:14

I'm going to work really hard , but

8:16

there's this idea of I have to trust that

8:18

you're going to be doing

8:21

this too . And

8:24

I'm curious , as you've

8:26

talked to other couples about this

8:28

and kind of gone through this , have you found

8:31

that couples sometimes have a hard time trusting

8:33

that their partner is going

8:35

to be given the 80% to be radically

8:38

generous and then , like you , can

8:40

end up keeping score about that ? You

8:42

know , like . How do you like what

8:45

? Have you seen ? Yeah , yeah . What

8:48

did you say to that ?

8:50

Yeah , this is actually . I think one

8:52

of the foremost objections

8:55

to the whole idea of an 8080

8:57

marriage is this idea of well

9:00

, let's suppose I actually do

9:02

this and I'm contributing it to 80%

9:04

, but my partner is still stuck in this mindset

9:06

of fairness . Now things

9:08

are almost even worse for me because I'm

9:11

almost like the dorm out of the relationship

9:14

, you know , being taken advantage of

9:16

. And I think the

9:18

made up response to that objection

9:21

is that there

9:23

is this way in which mindset

9:25

has this contagious quality . You

9:28

know , in psychology they call this social contagion

9:30

or complementary behavior . But

9:32

the basic idea is that our mindset

9:35

is contagious and so when we're locked

9:37

in that mindset of fairness from

9:40

approaching Kaylee that way which definitely

9:42

still happens even though we wrote this book

9:44

there's a way in which she's going

9:46

to mirror .

9:46

No , way .

9:47

Yeah exactly .

9:48

You guys know that you have a book coming out .

9:50

I'm sure you did . The projection doesn't

9:52

happen after the update .

9:53

It's so funny yeah we

9:56

have this handle , it's all right . Exactly

9:59

.

10:00

But anyway , if I approach Kaylee with that

10:02

mindset of fairness and I'm scorekeeping

10:04

and I'm resenting her she's going to mirror that

10:07

back with 100%

10:09

certainty . What's really interesting

10:11

about shifting that mindset to something

10:13

more like radical generosity or 8080

10:15

is that it also has

10:18

that contagious effect and

10:20

that when we drop fairness

10:23

as an individual , there's a way in which

10:25

we open up the space where our

10:27

partner can also drop

10:29

that mindset of fairness . So maybe

10:32

it doesn't perfectly work out

10:34

in an egalitarian way , but what it

10:36

does do is it creates this space

10:39

where the other person can

10:41

now experiment

10:44

with being a little bit more generous and experiment

10:46

with dropping the scorekeeping .

10:49

Sorry . No , no go ahead

10:51

In this model . So I'm thinking of so

10:54

many of the couples we talk to .

10:55

I know I'm too . What would they ?

10:57

I know what's the pushback yeah , but

11:01

I think honestly , for a lot of couples we talk to , they're

11:04

not actually even at 50-50

11:06

.

11:06

Frankly , there

11:09

may be more that you talk about the old

11:11

80-20 . The 80-20

11:14

kind of old sort of 1950s

11:18

break down .

11:19

Yeah , and , honestly , I think most

11:21

couples , at least the ones that we talk to

11:23

, and we know we have a

11:25

pretty skewed sort of base here

11:27

, because there are people who are willing to talk to people

11:30

like us but

11:33

they don't even always know how to get

11:35

like , how do we do that ? So

11:37

, like yeah , I mean I can hear a thousand

11:39

different people like , yeah , it isn't completely fair

11:41

. Like , yeah , they do handle more

11:43

of the parenting responsibilities . Or yeah , like the

11:47

example it's early in the

11:49

book , I can't remember exactly , but something about the like

11:51

Kaylee , you were asking Nate if he could handle more

11:53

of the pickups .

11:55

Oh yeah , picking up .

11:56

And like how , the

11:58

way you all wrote that , like I honestly laughed out loud

12:00

in reading a book , which I feel like doesn't

12:03

happen very often . But like

12:05

that is a response I can hear

12:07

from so many of the couples we talk to of like

12:09

you asked for me to pick up this

12:11

. You know our kid a couple more times

12:14

a week and what I heard is and

12:16

I'm now paraphrasing what you said , but like my

12:18

job isn't important , I'm , you

12:20

know I don't make as much money , so it doesn't matter

12:23

as whatever Like , but like we do hear

12:25

through that lens and I think so many

12:27

of the couples we talk to aren't

12:29

even there .

12:32

Aren't even at a 50-50

12:34

even or like a yes Okay

12:37

.

12:37

Do you know what I mean ?

12:37

Yeah , yeah , yeah .

12:40

And so I think this idea of radical generosity , especially from the person

12:42

who already feels like I'm , at like 95

12:45

, maybe even percent

12:47

of what I'm offering , and I feel like my partner's

12:50

at 30 . And that's probably

12:52

generous in their mindset , like

12:54

what does that sound like ? Or

12:57

I get , that's not really a question , but Well

12:59

, what you're ?

13:00

describing is so common . I

13:02

think you're illustrating it really beautifully , and

13:04

there are two different pieces that I think

13:06

you're putting together in

13:08

a way that shows up in real life . So

13:11

piece number one is

13:13

the mindset . Can

13:15

I see my partner with

13:18

an aspiration to

13:20

contribute 80% , with an aspiration

13:23

to appreciate the things they

13:25

are doing and with an aspiration

13:28

to reveal about myself ? That's the

13:30

foundational piece of the mindset . Only

13:33

when I have this mindset of

13:35

radical generosity can then

13:38

we start to tackle what you're

13:40

pointing out , which is deep

13:42

inequality in roles

13:44

. And so what

13:47

Nate and I discovered as we were

13:49

writing this book . So the story that you're telling is when

13:52

our daughter was going to first grade

13:54

. The question was who was going to meet the bus , and

13:56

from my perspective , it was crystal clear that Nate should

13:58

meet the bus , and from his perspective , it was

14:00

crystal clear that I should meet the bus . And

14:02

each of us started hearing

14:05

the other person's statement

14:07

that well , you should meet the bus

14:09

as all kinds of accusations

14:11

that Nate's job wasn't important

14:13

, that he should be around , that

14:16

he was just sort of the default . And

14:18

only when we could see each

14:21

other through a mindset

14:23

of radical generosity , you are

14:25

the person I love . I

14:27

want to build a life with you . We

14:30

want to have shared success

14:32

. We want to have our daughter , have

14:35

someone who loves her at the bus

14:37

. At the end of the day , what

14:39

are our shared aspirations ? Then

14:42

we could look at who's doing what

14:44

. And so then to your point

14:46

, that couple that says I don't

14:49

know about this 80-80 nonsense our relationship

14:51

is 90-10 or like 100-0 or

14:53

whatever it might be . That might be true

14:55

when they look at those roles . But

14:58

they can't even start the

15:00

conversation about that

15:02

until they're

15:04

willing to enter into a mindset

15:07

of generosity . Because

15:09

if you go in with a mindset of scorekeeping

15:11

, regardless of if it's like it

15:14

could be off by like 1%

15:16

and you'll fight about it or it could be off by 90%

15:19

and you'll fight about it , okay , thanks , great .

15:22

So how sorry ?

15:23

well , I think I think I was just about to ask the same

15:25

question that I think you're gonna ask

15:27

We'll see is is how , how

15:30

do you enter into that mindset

15:33

of generosity and , and

15:35

I would say even , like , when there's been

15:37

like some hard calcification

15:40

of resentment , that that

15:42

is built up ? Because I think that I

15:44

think that , like

15:48

it makes sense , like , yes , you know , like

15:50

, hey , let's love each other , let's be for

15:52

each other . Let me , like I want to give

15:54

to you , you want to give to me , we want to give

15:56

to our family , like all of those , those

15:59

really really powerful , necessary

16:01

, important things . But you know

16:03

, I mean honestly , like we kind of get

16:05

couples down

16:07

the road a little bit in their relationship

16:10

and that

16:12

Feeling sort of that Sometimes

16:16

is is really hard to find . It's

16:18

like buried and like it's been

16:20

like a like cement got poured

16:22

over that and it's hardened and there's that resentment

16:24

like what are some ways

16:27

that maybe you've seen couples

16:29

move into that mindset ?

16:32

the place to start is Seeing

16:36

if what you're doing right now is working . If it's

16:38

working to bathe in

16:40

cortisol and hold resentment

16:43

and score , keep and finish

16:45

the night . Yes , sort of hating each

16:47

other . Yeah , keep it keep doing exactly

16:49

what you're doing . Go for it , keep

16:52

doing it , yeah but if it's not working

16:55

, then there are some tactics to

16:57

shift to 8080 . Oh , you talked about those .

16:59

Yeah , so we do think that

17:01

it's important to operationalize

17:03

this idea of radical generosity . Otherwise

17:06

it's so abstract and so

17:08

right . We think there are a few things that couples

17:10

can be thinking about . One is

17:12

contribution , which is almost

17:14

the essence of generosity , just

17:16

these small acts of contribution

17:19

throughout the day . They don't have to be huge . It

17:21

doesn't have to be the trip to Fiji , right , it

17:23

could be like the cup of coffee in

17:25

the morning or the sticky note that says I love you

17:27

, or even tiny things .

17:29

This is . I noticed that Nate left his dish

17:31

in the sink and rather than me running

17:33

through the lake oh man , he always

17:35

leaves his dish in the sink I move it to the

17:37

dishwasher , because that's actually

17:39

a gift to me , because I like the

17:41

tidy kitchen .

17:43

Yeah , totally Well . So so there's contribution

17:45

. The second , which I'm sure you

17:47

all love , it's probably our favorite

17:49

relationship hack appreciation

17:52

just the . Shift

17:55

in the way you see your partner

17:57

from looking at everything they've done wrong

17:59

throughout the day to maybe Appreciating

18:01

them for one specific thing they've

18:04

done to contribute to the family , to your kids , to

18:06

you . And then the final piece

18:08

is revealing , which is really

18:10

just getting in . This habit of

18:12

talking about more than the weather

18:14

, you know , I'm sure you see this we

18:16

see this all the time with couples we coach

18:19

, but there's this habit of just

18:21

defaulting to like , wow , it's snowing

18:23

outside , oh , it's it's

18:25

windy , oh you know , like

18:27

what's going on at work , right , just this

18:30

kind of very superficial level of conversation

18:32

, which is fine , but asking better

18:34

questions about what's really going on

18:36

, sharing about your inner life and

18:38

then , when there are those disagreements , having

18:41

a way where you can reveal your

18:43

hurt feelings or your disappointment or the miscommunication

18:46

. We think of those three pieces

18:48

as almost like the way you

18:50

take that abstract idea of radical

18:52

generosity and start to create

18:55

actual , tangible habits

18:57

which Can kind

18:59

of have this upward spiral effect . I'm sure you've

19:01

had that experience yourself where you

19:03

start just doing one or two acts of contribution

19:06

and you notice a shift in your partner . You

19:08

start appreciating each other every day

19:10

, you notice that shift .

19:12

So so that's how you kind of put it into practice

19:14

, we think I so

19:17

I'm gonna start with the , the last

19:19

one , the reveal part , because I think that that

19:21

that I remember reading

19:23

that in the book and I

19:25

what I really appreciated about that

19:27

was this idea of it's not that

19:29

you try to avoid hard conversations

19:32

by just saying like , ooh , I'm well

19:34

, you know I'm I'm really frustrated about

19:37

that dish , but I'm just gonna do

19:39

something generous for for Nate

19:41

there . That might be

19:43

something that you have to reveal like

19:45

, yes , you , you'll do it , you'll do

19:47

it and you'll try to do it with that spirit and with that

19:49

mindset . But it's still important

19:52

to have difficult conversations . It's it's

19:54

important to talk about Difficult

19:56

feelings , and to do that

19:59

is actually being very generous to

20:01

one another , because what it does

20:03

is it helps the relationship . Have

20:06

those little habits of like I mean , if you're doing

20:08

that more often , your resume

20:10

won't stack it but because you'll be kind of

20:12

addressing things in the moment . But I

20:14

did really appreciate that because I think some people

20:16

could hear this and be like oh so I'm

20:18

just supposed to like fake

20:20

that I'm not upset or that

20:22

I'm not Angry and

20:24

just sort of like think the best of my

20:27

partner and it'll all be

20:29

okay , and I think that that really misses

20:31

sort of the depth of what of what you're

20:33

saying . I think that reveal part is so very

20:35

important .

20:36

I'm so glad you Named

20:38

that , because you're exactly

20:40

right you can't just

20:43

appreciate and contribute your way

20:45

to a healthy relationship , that

20:47

those are some of the gifts that you

20:49

give your partner , but if you don't share

20:52

, hey , I felt upset when

20:54

, or hey , I'm watching

20:56

this pattern happen and if it continues

20:59

, I'm worried , I'm gonna be resentful . There's

21:01

a not an opportunity for your

21:03

partner to do anything different . I

21:06

think one of the huge right . Risks

21:08

that happens in relationships is we expect

21:10

our partner to read our mind . Well

21:13

, didn't you know , by the way , that I did

21:15

this thing , that you actually didn't see me do

21:17

that ? I wanted you to do something else , and they're like I

21:19

don't even know what you're talking about , and

21:22

so yeah . Revealing

21:24

. Hey , I was hurt , I was

21:26

upset , I was angry , I felt resentful

21:28

keeps that connection

21:31

clear . Exactly to your

21:33

point . So it doesn't stack up that

21:35

one of the things that I think is really tricky is couples

21:38

will often Wait to seek

21:40

help until there's so many

21:42

layers of resentment that , to your point , there

21:44

are cement blocks that you have

21:46

to remove from the surface .

21:49

If we can get in the habit where we're revealing

21:51

all of the smaller pieces

21:53

, then they don't stack up and we

21:56

can clear them more quickly when I would just

21:58

say there is a book coming out this summer

22:00

by Aaron and Stephen Mitchell I've

22:02

had the privilege of reading an early copy

22:04

of , which is about exactly this . I

22:06

mean , you all are the experts . Yes , like

22:09

the practical dimensions of how

22:11

do you have these conversations , what are the scripts

22:13

? So anyone listening look

22:16

forward to that .

22:19

Thank you . Well , I do . I do

22:21

think like and to . So I

22:23

think In

22:25

that , like we have , we have a little part

22:27

of our process where we , where we

22:29

talk about like Partners , have

22:31

to believe their partners experienced

22:34

. They might not agree with it , they might not

22:36

understand it , but if their partner is saying I

22:38

feel this way , or I'm

22:40

upset by this , or I'm challenged

22:43

like this is difficult that

22:45

I think one of the ways

22:47

to be generous is

22:49

to say , okay , I believe you , I

22:52

don't need to , I don't need to argue with you , I

22:54

don't need to defend myself . What I need to do

22:56

is try and understand what you're trying

22:58

to reveal to me and

23:01

in that and in that effort

23:03

, what I can do is I can understand you better

23:05

and then we can practically do something

23:07

together . Because I think what

23:11

I , what I again , just what I really

23:14

love about this idea of radical generosity

23:16

is , I think it really Shortcuts

23:19

and bypasses defensiveness

23:21

and criticism . Yes , because

23:23

because it's like why do that ? We

23:25

like we don't need to do that , like I

23:28

could get , like why I'd want to

23:30

, but that's not going

23:32

to help us right that

23:34

and that's , and that's not going

23:36

to move us towards anything . But

23:40

I think a lot of people stick with defensiveness

23:42

and criticism because they're feeling something very

23:44

strongly and they want to communicate that

23:46

emotion and that's how they know how

23:48

to do it . But but again , what

23:50

you're talking about is , no , reveal the emotions

23:53

, but do it with that

23:55

mindset of generosity that's

23:58

been built on the contribution and the appreciation

24:01

. Like it , like it just . It goes to

24:03

me . In my mind it goes very

24:05

well and allows partners to be

24:07

able to believe each other's experience and

24:09

, like , actually do something together

24:12

rather than Vicar and

24:15

when the hard Things happen

24:17

when somebody does feel reveals

24:19

an experience .

24:20

I love this notion of I believe you . Dr

24:23

Becky talks a lot about that with parenting

24:25

that one of the most powerful things that you

24:27

can say to a child isI Believe

24:30

you , because it helps them know that their

24:32

experience is real . We are all like

24:34

there's an inner child and all of us that just wants

24:36

to be believed . I am real

24:38

right and when our intimate partner

24:41

can say I believe you

24:43

from a perspective of Generosity

24:45

, I think about it like seeing

24:48

our partner with soft eyes versus

24:50

harsh or critical eyes and Listening

24:52

with empathy , where I am listening

24:55

with love , because I care

24:57

about you and I want to understand your experience

24:59

, which doesn't mean that your experience

25:01

now has to be my experience . It

25:04

means I want to listen with that generosity

25:06

of I believe you . Exactly

25:08

as you're saying , stephen , it shortcuts . We

25:11

don't have to criticize , we

25:13

don't have to compare , we don't have to

25:15

argue for whose perception of reality

25:17

is the better or the more true . It's to say

25:19

, you are having a feeling and I

25:21

want to know what that is . That's revealing

25:24

. And then there can be a request

25:27

. One of the places I we find couples

25:29

get lost is that they do a bunch of revealing

25:31

and then they look at each other and they're like so

25:34

what am I supposed to do with

25:36

that ? And Again

25:39

back to this notion that most of

25:41

us are quite terrible mind readers . To

25:43

make the request explicit hey

25:46

, I just want you to listen so I can vent , or

25:49

hey , I would love some coaching

25:51

here , or I'm really

25:53

stuck . You know , can you just

25:55

I'd left some compassion . Whatever

25:58

the request is , helps your partner not guess

26:00

wrong .

26:04

Go ahead no .

26:04

Okay , so I am listening to the

26:06

contribution , appreciation revealing , and

26:09

I'm thinking about again , I

26:11

think I'm just I

26:14

don't know what , it is , a broken record maybe , but like

26:16

. So for the couple who like

26:19

again . So we specifically talk

26:22

to parents and other couples might be listening

26:24

and I hope they are , but

26:27

for , like , the parent who feels like I'm doing

26:29

a lot

26:31

of this , you

26:34

know sort of like the buzzword of like the mental

26:37

load , or like I am the default parent

26:39

and I'm saying these things to you and I've been

26:41

saying these things to you and

26:44

Stephen says Aaron , I hear you like

26:46

, oh man , I hear you , but

26:49

nothing feels different . I

26:52

think that is where that's never happened

26:54

. Yeah

26:57

never .

26:59

This conversation didn't

27:01

happen this week .

27:05

But I think this , I

27:07

think this is where we do get that couple who feels

27:09

a little like I don't , I

27:11

don't feel generosity towards you

27:13

anymore .

27:14

You know so because I think a lot of times

27:16

just bitterness or hurt

27:18

or anger , yeah , which I think does come out as bitterness

27:21

.

27:21

But , yeah , like I don't appreciate

27:23

that , you woke up and said good

27:25

morning , like I don't

27:27

particularly . I don't

27:29

feel . I feel like you have a lot of empathy

27:31

for how much work I'm putting in and

27:33

how much I'm doing , but I don't think there's a lot of action

27:36

. So , like , how does ? And I think I

27:38

think that's what I'm saying , I think what you're saying is

27:40

these three steps lead to the

27:42

action , so it's not just a like the

27:45

practice , the habit of doing . I really

27:47

, I really love to feel appreciated , because Stephen's really

27:49

good at saying like you just tackle

27:52

that , like you nailed it and like me , but

27:54

I definitely don't want

27:56

to have to tackle it all by myself next

27:58

time . Like so how do like ? How can we make sure

28:00

? And I think that's what you're saying . But I just want it to be like

28:03

super clear and I want people

28:05

to hear like we get that , that's

28:07

real , we get that this , this

28:09

feeling of like it

28:12

doesn't do just to feel appreciated

28:14

. If it doesn't feel different again

28:18

, that's not a question .

28:19

Well , yeah , there is a really

28:21

important response to that , I think , because

28:24

that is a real experience

28:26

and that was actually our experience

28:28

for a lot of years in our

28:30

marriage . The dynamic the way I would

28:32

name it is you have an over contributing

28:35

partner and you have an under contributing

28:37

partner and our dynamic . I was the under contributor

28:40

, she was the over contributor , and

28:42

so this , and this is a very common

28:44

dynamic . A lot of people listening are

28:46

probably in this dynamic a lot of your clients

28:49

are probably in this dynamic and what's really

28:51

interesting , especially

28:53

having lived this together for so many

28:55

years , is that when

28:57

we used fairness as

28:59

a way to try to escape this dynamic

29:02

of radically unequal contribution

29:04

, we ended up making

29:07

the contribution even more unequal

29:09

. So it was like this noble idea

29:12

where the way it would play out

29:14

is Kaylee would essentially nag

29:16

me to do certain things . Okay , babe

29:19

, could you clean the grill right ? She

29:21

would become the de facto .

29:22

CEO of the family .

29:24

I would become the de facto director of the family . I would go direct

29:26

report to her and my

29:28

response to that which I think is the response of a

29:30

lot of under contributing partners and reluctant

29:32

partners is to say you know what

29:34

? Screw it , I'm just not going to

29:36

do anything because nothing

29:39

I do is enough .

29:39

We're never going to match up . Yeah , exactly like there's

29:42

so much resentment , oh my goodness .

29:44

And so you go from an unequal dynamic to an even

29:46

more unequal dynamic . So

29:48

I think one really key thing

29:50

is for the over contributor

29:53

and maybe you can speak to this because you were

29:55

that to take a really

29:57

close look at how they've set it up

29:59

.

29:59

So and so I

30:01

challenge you to find a single over

30:03

contributor , over contributor

30:05

, who initially says this

30:08

is awesome , I totally wanted

30:10

to be doing way more than my partner

30:12

. No one ever

30:15

has consciously said I want

30:17

to over contribute , I want my partner

30:19

to under contribute , and I'd really love

30:21

for us to resent each other a lot

30:23

. And so it's . It's

30:25

a pretty bold move to say

30:27

this keeps happening

30:30

. Why , what's really

30:32

going on here ? And it was quite

30:34

right and false . So the example that we share in

30:36

8080 there are lots more is

30:39

I would say to Nate hey , babe , will you clean

30:41

the grill ? And he would say it's on

30:43

my list , and a week later it's a hey

30:46

. So you said you clean the grill

30:48

and he'd say it's on my list , which

30:50

was basically his way of saying F you , nicely

30:53

, it's on my list , but I got that

30:55

, I got that I would just get so mad . Where

30:57

is this list ? Now I'm going to

30:59

micro manage you doing the thing and

31:02

the list on what you're keeping . The thing and

31:04

what I realized was I

31:06

was creating this dynamic in

31:08

a couple ways one , I had

31:10

my way of doing it and

31:12

I wanted him to do it my way , so

31:15

it wasn't about the outcome , it was

31:17

about how the thing got done

31:19

, and I was setting

31:21

it up where I wasn't actually giving him

31:23

any control about some of the things that he was up

31:25

to . And so what I realized is that , by

31:28

me nagging , by me making it my

31:30

way and by me trying to control the entire

31:32

process , I made like I was a nightmare

31:35

to try to partner with . There

31:37

were other things in our relationship where

31:39

, like I also managed the finances

31:42

for us and I'd be so pissed that

31:44

Nate would go spend money . I'd

31:46

be like don't you know what budget

31:48

we're operating on ? He's like , no , actually

31:51

I don't . And so

31:53

a lot of what happens in this over

31:55

contributing place is I'm

31:58

controlling , and

32:01

it's painful to acknowledge all

32:03

the ways that I'm controlling . And

32:06

then , every time my partner tries to do something , they

32:08

try to contribute . They try to like help

32:10

out or lean in . I criticize

32:12

them for all the ways that they were imperfect , and what

32:14

they learn is I can't ever get it right

32:16

, and so they stop trying . What

32:19

did I miss or misrepresent ?

32:21

Oh , that's good yeah .

32:24

I wonder . So I imagine too , though , for

32:27

you , nate , because , kayleigh , I think

32:29

that makes a lot of sense , I think also

32:31

for the under contributing partner . I

32:33

don't imagine , nate , you woke up and

32:35

were like , hey , I want to just

32:37

be perceived as a slacker who doesn't do

32:40

anything , and just you know that , like

32:42

that's not , that's not what

32:44

you're wanting to

32:46

communicate . But there is , and

32:48

see , if you because I'm thinking about , like

32:50

again , these conversations that we

32:52

have with these couples where there's

32:55

, there's mutual responsibility

32:57

, right , so , kayleigh , you're thinking like , hey

32:59

, I need to like dial back the

33:02

control in a sense

33:04

. But I think , nate

33:07

, like what I hear , or like what

33:10

we talked to other couples about , is like you've got

33:12

to dial up the engagement

33:14

and not use the , not

33:16

use the like . Well , hey , just

33:19

because you're never going to be happy about it , forget

33:21

, like , forget it , I'm not going to do anything

33:24

, because that's a real easy , you

33:27

know , escape hatch to go through . And so

33:29

it's , it's , it's , it's

33:31

, it's again , it's that movement that both

33:33

partners can make

33:35

in a generous

33:38

way and an accountable way of I'm

33:40

going to dial down the control and I'm going to dial

33:42

up that engagement . I'm curious if

33:44

that's what you found , and I

33:47

think that that's a kind

33:49

of conversation we have a lot with couples

33:51

. That's exactly , but yeah , how did it work for

33:53

you ?

33:54

That's exactly right . The move you

33:56

named there , I think , was so beautiful that

33:58

one partner the overcontributor

34:00

needs to lean in and let go of control

34:02

a little bit . The other , the undercontributor

34:04

, needs to lean into engagement

34:07

. And also to your point , I've

34:09

now talked to a number of reluctant partners

34:11

and one of the misunderstandings

34:14

of people in that position is

34:16

that they somehow have this amazing situation

34:19

, this free ride where

34:21

they don't have to do anything . But the truth

34:23

is , if you talk to somebody in that position

34:26

, they're miserable and it's incredibly

34:29

painful to feel disempowered

34:31

and to feel like you're a free rider . So

34:34

nobody wants to be there

34:36

. The undercontributor doesn't want to be where

34:38

they are , you know , and so

34:40

it becomes just a question of like well

34:42

, how can you each lean toward

34:44

the other person ? And that's that

34:47

idea of generosity , or shifting

34:49

from what's best for me to what's best

34:51

for us and to your

34:54

point exactly . It's going

34:56

to feel uncomfortable for both partners

34:58

. It feels really uncomfortable to let go of control

35:00

for an overcontributor , but it feels

35:02

really scary and edgy to

35:05

lean into engagement for the undercontributor

35:07

, because they've probably done that before

35:09

and it hasn't worked out very well . So

35:11

it's really a dance and

35:14

I think if you can just start moving

35:16

into that place of discomfort more

35:18

often with a spirit of love underneath it

35:20

all , it is something that can

35:22

be resolved . I mean , we were able to get

35:24

out of it ourselves , so we know it's possible

35:27

.

35:27

Yeah , you

35:30

mentioned this earlier , nate , and

35:32

I can't now remember the context . But

35:34

about . You said the word resentment and I realized

35:36

in the moment that you meant for the undercontributor

35:39

. I don't think we'd used those words yet

35:41

but I was like , oh , that's an important thing to hit on

35:43

, because I think a lot of times

35:45

couples in the 80 , 20

35:48

or in the 50 , 50 feel

35:50

like the resentment is only for

35:52

again . I'm going to use the buzzwords the

35:55

person carrying the mental load or the default

35:57

parent .

35:58

The overcontributor in

36:00

this scenario ?

36:01

Yeah , I think that there

36:03

is so much stacked up hurt

36:05

and resentment , both ways that

36:08

because , to your point

36:10

, what you just said well , I think kind of

36:12

what all of you have said is no one wanted to

36:14

be here . And Kaylee , to what you'd said earlier

36:16

, like , do we like ? Where this is

36:19

, no , no

36:21

one feels great , going to bed disconnected

36:23

and like your dish ruined our

36:25

day . And the other person , like how can

36:27

a dish ruin a day ? Like why

36:30

does a dish have to ruin a day ? And

36:32

I just think it matters . And

36:34

I think what you just said

36:36

too , they've probably been there before , I think

36:39

, everyone in this situation . The reason

36:41

a dish hurt so much , the reason

36:43

feeling like all

36:46

of these dynamics hurt , is because I

36:48

it wasn't supposed to be this way . You

36:50

know , I married Steven because he finally , for once

36:52

, carried his weight and I didn't feel like

36:54

I had to do everything by myself . And then we start

36:56

to get into these patterns and I'm like you

36:59

lied to me yes . I was

37:01

like . You were not deceived . You were supposed

37:03

to be better than this and I wasn't supposed to have

37:05

to carry all this . And no one knows

37:07

that . No one's actually able to articulate that right

37:09

away .

37:10

Well , yeah , and then I'm sitting there being

37:12

like I'm doing a lot . I

37:14

feel like I'm doing a lot , I'm

37:17

not trying to not do stuff

37:19

and there's

37:21

just a mist that then you have

37:23

to .

37:24

Well then , exactly what we just said is the fairness

37:27

battle .

37:27

Yes , right , and

37:29

that is where it gets to like that

37:32

misunderstood perpetually

37:34

, like there's another

37:36

piece to what you're describing that I think

37:38

is worth naming here , which is we often

37:41

loop in evidence

37:43

in our favor . So

37:45

I do the version of like , but

37:47

compared to other working moms

37:49

, I'm crushing this right

37:52

, or like you should see the other people

37:54

at my office . I'm amazing

37:56

. So we bring in comparison

37:58

from the outside that isn't actually relevant

38:01

in our relationship . On top

38:03

of one of the main reasons we talk about

38:05

fairness doesn't work is this notion of availability

38:08

bias , which is just a fancy psychological

38:10

term , for I know everything

38:12

that I'm doing and so I count

38:15

it at 100% . I am aware

38:17

of every dish that I wash , every pickup

38:19

that I do . Every time I set

38:21

a boundary and I'm the mean parent

38:23

, I know it . But every

38:25

time that you do something

38:27

the hard day you had at work , the

38:30

call that you made to reset our insurance

38:32

, all the things that you did that I wasn't there

38:34

for , they don't exist for me

38:36

, and so I don't count them . Not

38:39

because I'm meaning to have a completely insane

38:41

, imbalanced ledger , but I just I literally

38:43

don't know . Right , and

38:46

so we're basing this idea

38:48

of what's fair on something

38:50

that's invisible , because

38:52

you name this so many times there and in such a beautiful way

38:54

emotional labor is always invisible

38:56

. Caring

38:59

about how

39:01

are we going to navigate the complex extended

39:05

family dynamics around this

39:07

birthday party , the hours

39:09

that I spend thinking through who gets invited

39:12

and how we set it up and how that sounds so

39:14

that nobody's mad , that's a lot of load

39:16

that is absolutely invisible and

39:18

therefore really hard to take

39:20

into account or appreciate

39:22

or do something different around

39:24

without that clear reveal

39:26

and request .

39:29

Yeah , and

39:31

again , I think that's where all

39:34

that the

39:36

availability bias , that's

39:39

where the appreciation that you all talk about

39:41

comes in key there

39:43

, because it's you're looking to

39:46

be mindful about

39:48

, appreciating and thinking through , like

39:50

what are the things that maybe

39:52

I haven't been aware of , that I should make an effort

39:54

to be aware of , and that I think another

39:57

thing that's really challenging

39:59

about all of this is what

40:01

you're talking about takes effort

40:03

, it takes intention , it

40:08

takes practice and work , and

40:11

I think so often times .

40:12

I have to interrupt . I think it also takes

40:14

a ton of work to keep a ledger . Oh

40:17

sure , yes , I think it takes

40:19

a ton of work . Yes , so

40:21

I'm not saying that's so true . I know you're not saying that

40:23

man it's hard .

40:25

Yes , where

40:28

do you want to allocate your energy ? Where ? Exactly , exactly .

40:30

Exactly Because you're spending it regardless

40:32

. But if we're looking for the ways that Steven

40:35

fails me , in a day I will find

40:37

it .

40:37

Yeah , because I can hear a couple

40:40

say like , oh well , that just feels like more work

40:42

and it's like no

40:44

, why don't

40:47

you do the work , to do this good

40:49

work , which will benefit you

40:51

, instead of all that other work that

40:53

you're doing to have conflict

40:55

and be resentful towards each other ? And so

40:57

I think , yeah , that's

40:59

it Again . It is just where do

41:01

you want to focus ?

41:02

Yeah , Well

41:05

, there's another way of saying it that we really

41:08

like , which is something

41:10

like so much

41:12

of what happens in our relationship

41:15

, in our parenting , happens by

41:17

accident , and that's not to say

41:19

that it's easy , but it's purely

41:21

accidental .

41:22

Yeah .

41:23

Right . So the scorekeeping

41:25

that we're doing , the ledgers that we're holding

41:28

, that's all happening by accident . We

41:30

never sat down and said that's the

41:32

best way to run this shift here . Right , right

41:35

, right , yeah . So

41:38

parenting and in relationships is

41:40

really about shifting from that

41:43

accidental arrangement

41:45

to something that's more intentional

41:47

. And so few couples

41:49

have taken that moment to just

41:51

take a step back and say if

41:54

we were to actually design this thing

41:56

intentionally , versus

41:58

by accident , where our parents' habits from

42:00

the 1950s just filter into the way

42:02

we interact with each other , what would that look

42:04

like Like ? How would we set up our roles

42:07

? How would we set up our priorities ? What

42:09

boundaries would we need to set ? And

42:12

that way there's still effort involved

42:14

. But to your point , erin , the effort

42:16

has now shifted from this kind of accidental

42:19

gnarly thing that keeps us fighting to

42:21

something that we've actually designed and

42:24

thought about that's going to serve us together

42:26

.

42:29

And then that you keep assessing . One of the

42:31

things that I love that you all do in

42:33

your book is you have a

42:36

reader or listener , not reader

42:38

, listener . If you're

42:40

reading the book , like you'll flip through and there's all

42:42

these like little gray boxed out pages

42:45

and that's like the

42:47

practical , like this is where it's going to happen

42:49

, this is how we're going to map it out , and

42:52

then this is how we're going to assess it

42:54

, because you all have the where you

42:56

go through and you kind of score yourself

42:59

in terms of how you're

43:01

doing and meeting the expectations

43:03

and roles that you've all set . And like these

43:06

practical , intentional , on purpose

43:08

kinds of assessments

43:10

and like drawing things out , mapping

43:12

it out , are like

43:15

like they're so useful

43:18

and practical so

43:21

that it does take this from kind of abstract

43:23

to enacting it . And I think that

43:25

like again , it's like spend your

43:28

time doing that rather

43:30

than ruminating late at

43:32

night or early in the morning

43:34

or all day long about how terrible things

43:37

are , how uncaring

43:39

your partner is . It's really you

43:42

didn't like that . I said that I can tell .

43:44

No , I was going to say , is this spoken from experience ?

43:48

No , not that way .

43:50

But yeah .

43:51

I just think again just a lot of

43:53

power in those exercises .

43:54

I loved it . You emphasized the practicality

43:57

, because that was one of our primary

43:59

objectives in writing this book and

44:02

in our conversation we focused a

44:04

lot on the mindset of radical generosity

44:06

, because that's the essential

44:09

foundation . You can't do

44:11

the exercises in the book with

44:14

nearly as much success without that foundation

44:16

of radical generosity , contribution

44:19

, appreciation revealing . But then our

44:21

goal was to give you concrete

44:23

exercises to do so . In the

44:25

book we give you an exercise how

44:28

do you define your shared values so

44:30

that you know whether or not you're pointing

44:32

your ship the right direction that you want to go

44:34

? How do you ? get super

44:37

clear on what your priorities

44:39

are . So what are you saying yes to and

44:41

what are you saying no to . And we give

44:43

you fun . I think they're quite fun , like

44:45

do a life report card and

44:47

see if you can find places to give yourself Ds

44:50

and Fs , because then you know

44:52

that your . A's actually matter

44:54

. So we went through and did exercises

44:57

on all of these pieces roles , power

45:00

so that at the end

45:02

you felt like you had concrete

45:04

, actionable things that you could go put

45:06

into practice . Because I think

45:08

you said this early , stephen , I wish that we could contribute

45:11

and appreciate our way to bliss

45:13

, but then we need to go actually make it real

45:15

, and the exercises are designed to do that

45:17

.

45:19

Right and I think

45:21

they're again . Yeah , do them

45:23

. They're great . I

45:25

was really . I really enjoyed looking

45:29

through them and I really

45:31

was like . I was like Erin and I , we should sit down and

45:33

do these .

45:34

I think what makes it great too is if

45:38

you just do the exercises without the

45:40

mindset

45:42

, that is back to the 50-50 . It's

45:44

still done with the spirit of resentment

45:47

. And I'm doing this because you're sort

45:49

of requiring and no

45:52

one likes to be told what to do , no one . And

45:55

it doesn't feel good and , honestly , a lot of the things

45:57

that are unequal in Stephen's and our partnership

46:00

, I want to be , or he wants

46:02

to be , I don't mind doing more like

46:04

some of that , like you know , some

46:06

of the mental stuff , when Stephen's like I'll take that , I'll

46:08

handle this birthday party , like well , I don't want

46:10

you to do that , I'm going to be doing it

46:12

anyway . So I don't think that

46:15

. But knowing that that's happening , it's

46:18

important to me that Stephen acknowledges

46:20

that and affirms that and appreciates

46:22

the positive outcome of

46:24

my sleepless nights about

46:27

all of those things . But I don't want

46:29

him just to come in and take over a bunch

46:31

of stuff that I don't actually want to give

46:33

up and vice versa . Right , I

46:36

mean we just took a trip and Stephen packed every

46:38

single bag , because if I had packed

46:40

any of the bags , stephen would be , I would have been unhappy

46:42

, stephen would unpack the bags and then

46:44

reload the bags .

46:46

Yeah , I'm a little , I am particular , I can't

46:48

admit about that .

46:49

I don't think that's bad . I think we all are particular in

46:51

our own ways . I just think so for

46:53

me to be like hey , you know what ? This trip , I'm going to pack the bags

46:56

. He's going to be like this trip . No , thank you

46:58

and never , ever ever again . I

47:01

just mean like I think the mindset alone

47:03

, I think isn't enough

47:06

. It doesn't feel to

47:08

me like it doesn't feel like I

47:10

want to know . I want us to have on paper

47:12

that I can trust .

47:13

It's a mindset plus the practice .

47:15

Yeah , I think , and I think the practice alone

47:17

doesn't feel like it either

47:20

. Anyway , I just think it's great .

47:21

I know we need to let you go .

47:22

I know .

47:24

I have one last question , and then maybe you

47:26

can tell everyone

47:28

where they can find you in the world . So

47:31

I'm , you know , people see 8080 . I

47:33

imagine there's the question

47:36

of why not 100 ? 100

47:38

, you know , like , like you know . So

47:41

yeah , how come 8080

47:43

as opposed to 100 , 100

47:45

?

47:46

Well , we think that we're

47:48

mostly underdoing generosity

47:51

. That's the 50-50 default state

47:53

that many of us have slipped into . But

47:56

it's also possible to overdo generosity

47:59

, and we learned this

48:01

through interviewing a number of people who

48:04

were so generous in

48:06

their relationship and gave

48:08

up so much that they had this experience

48:10

of losing their sense of self , losing

48:13

the sense that they had projects that

48:16

mattered , that they had an identity that mattered

48:18

, and so there's

48:20

a trap , obviously , with underdoing generosity

48:22

. But we just wanted to also

48:25

point to that trap on the

48:27

other side that some couples

48:29

or some individuals can fall into . So

48:32

and obviously you know , the math is all

48:34

very relative here and approximate- but

48:37

that's the basic idea that we want to leave

48:39

room for your own projects

48:41

, your own sense of self , and

48:44

so that's why 8080 instead of 100 , 100

48:46

. And then to your other

48:48

question where can people find out

48:50

about the book and what not ? Probably

48:53

the best place is our website 8080marriage

48:55

.

48:55

Okay , right , and I have to say 8080marriagecom

48:59

, because we found out that if you just listened , to it

49:01

.

49:01

It sounds like 80HD .

49:02

It's not that . It's not that .

49:04

It's not that yeah .

49:07

Oh my goodness , I can totally see that .

49:09

Totally 8080 . So

49:11

we have a bunch of information about the book . We also

49:13

do a newsletter every couple of weeks

49:16

called the Climp Insights newsletter , which is

49:18

really about these practical

49:20

tools . So people are interested

49:22

and they can sign up there and then on Instagram

49:24

as well .

49:28

How can they sign up for that newsletter on the 8080

49:31

?

49:31

Exactly At the bottom of the main page there's

49:33

a place where you can sign up for the newsletter

49:36

. It's totally free , but it's just tools that

49:38

we sort of like are driving

49:40

in the car home from the mountains and we'll be like , oh

49:42

, what about a newsletter on this ?

49:45

What about a newsletter about relationship tailgating

49:47

? Yeah , exactly .

49:48

Yeah , that's all

49:50

that comes through there .

49:53

And then , what is your Instagram handle ?

49:55

8080marriage . 8080marriage

49:59

Okay , awesome .

50:01

Awesome .

50:03

Thank you for such a great conversation .

50:05

I love the conversation and really

50:08

I really feel like , just even

50:10

personally , my own mindset

50:13

and my own heart and even

50:15

thoughts towards Erin have

50:17

really been shaped and helped by

50:20

going

50:22

through this book and considering what

50:24

you've written . So , just on a personal note , I

50:26

really appreciate it and thank you so much

50:29

for talking with us

50:31

today .

50:32

Thank you so much for having us .

50:34

Today's show was produced by Steven and Erin Mitchell

50:36

. If you're enjoying the podcast , please

50:38

be sure to subscribe to the show and

50:40

leave a rating . This will help others

50:42

find our content more readily and , as always

50:44

, we're grateful for you listening . Thanks

50:49

so much for being with us here today on Couples , counseling

50:51

for Parents and remember working

50:53

on a healthy couple relationship is

50:55

good parenting .