0:01

Hello and welcome Mrs Couples .

0:02

Counseling for Parents A show about

0:04

couple relationships how they

0:06

work , why they don't , what you can

0:09

do to fix what's broken .

0:10

Hiya parents Our

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Dad Dr Steven Mitchell and our

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Mom Erin Mitchell .

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Hello and thanks for joining us today on Couples Counseling

0:19

for Parents . I'm Dr Steven Mitchell .

0:21

I'm Erin Mitchell .

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And on today's show we're going to talk about

0:24

I don't know , something I've been thinking about

0:27

If I think about it . So

0:29

I we've been working

0:32

with couples for years

0:35

, a while now haven't we , yes

0:39

, and we've talked to a lot of different couples . We

0:42

hear a lot of like really

0:45

encouraging stories , but also some really

0:47

like hard stories .

0:50

Those are not always different .

0:52

Yeah , yeah , the good stories , the hard stories

0:54

can become the good stories . I like that , it's

0:56

real , it's true . But

0:58

I think one of the things sometimes like

1:01

when I , you know , look

1:03

back at you know all the people we've

1:05

interacted with , sometimes I find myself

1:07

asking the question man

1:09

, why does this period

1:12

of a couple's

1:14

development together

1:17

feel so

1:19

hard ?

1:21

Which period .

1:23

Well , this , this stage of their life

1:25

where they're kind

1:27

of trying to have

1:29

kids coming into being parents

1:32

building their family , kind of

1:34

that , I guess

1:36

the early , the early stage of

1:38

being parenting partners .

1:41

Okay .

1:42

Is that what you ? What are you

1:44

thinking ?

1:44

No , I think I well . I just wanted to know what

1:46

stage you were talking about . I mean , to be

1:49

perfectly honest , I think that is something

1:51

that we tend to focus on .

1:52

A lot of the couples we talk

1:54

to are in that

1:56

stage Kind of early , like what

1:59

I would say zero to five .

2:00

Zero to five At least one kid there , even if some of

2:02

the other ones are older . But

2:05

I do think that

2:07

the difficulties can persist

2:10

.

2:10

Oh yeah .

2:11

It's difficult in different ways , but there's an intensity

2:13

to that stage that is different .

2:14

Yeah , yeah , and I guess maybe I see

2:16

what you're saying . Like I'm not trying to like quantify

2:20

, like this early stage is

2:23

harder than you know teen or what

2:25

. Maybe I'm just I

2:27

see what you're saying Just parent , like couples

2:31

who are parents , things

2:34

get intense

2:37

, hard . I don't mean bad

2:39

, but it just , it just creates

2:41

a lot of I

2:44

don't know miscommunication , a lot of feelings

2:47

where partners are like you don't

2:49

get me . Yeah

2:51

, I just think it can feel hard

2:54

.

2:54

So I think one of the ways if I'm thinking

2:56

about it just as you're even talking that it

2:59

is different . I think in the zero

3:01

to five again , rough

3:04

, loose categories here but , zero to five

3:06

couples are trying to figure out

3:08

if they can work those things out . What

3:10

? Things , whatever intense

3:12

things , are coming up for them , which I think , is what we're

3:14

going to talk about , right .

3:16

Yeah well , and I think they hit a

3:18

level of intensity maybe in their couple

3:20

relationship that they've never experienced

3:22

. So I think for I disagree- I

3:26

think they're experiencing it in a different way .

3:28

I don't .

3:30

Sure , I mean Very intense things happen . Okay , okay

3:32

, all right , yes , I got you , I got you .

3:36

But I mean before kids and then . But it is different

3:38

. The intensity is different once you have kids

3:40

, for a lot of reasons . But

3:43

my previous point

3:45

, though , is to finish . That one is

3:47

I think couples

3:50

in that zero to five stage are trying to figure out

3:52

, like they're trying to figure

3:55

it out whatever those things are , and

3:57

they either decide we

4:00

can Right .

4:02

And we can continue to have productive conflict or

4:04

they decide they can't and they either completely

4:07

separate , like actually or or

4:09

they just push through and kind of grind

4:11

it out in a sense .

4:13

Yeah , and either avoid Now we

4:15

brush conflict on the rug cause it's pointless and

4:17

I don't want to have a conflict written home , or

4:19

it's really intense

4:21

all the time and there's a lot of fighting and it

4:23

doesn't feel productive and it feels , you

4:26

know , either higher , no conflict , or

4:29

neither one ideal

4:32

.

4:32

Right .

4:33

Conflict with resolution is what we're talking about

4:35

, and so I think that can be different . That

4:37

is why that time cause you're like can

4:39

we do this ? Right , right Are we doing this , can we do

4:41

this ? And then you kind of have to make

4:43

a decision Nope , so we just

4:45

avoid , or what ?

4:47

Well , maybe . So this is how I'm thinking about

4:49

it . See , if this is what you were saying

4:51

, this is how it comes together

4:54

in my mind . These early

4:56

years can

4:58

set the stage for

5:00

the quality

5:03

of the relationship

5:05

, like moving into the future

5:07

. So , for example , if it's stressful

5:09

and you're trying to figure

5:11

out how do we be a couple in the midst of

5:13

you know just a whole new context

5:16

, and

5:18

you feel like you figure it out . You feel like

5:20

not that you don't ever have any problems

5:22

, but you're like we know how to do

5:24

this together as a couple , where we can have

5:26

conflict and we can still feel

5:29

connected and we

5:31

can do hard things and we can

5:33

experience stress and

5:36

we can be good together . If

5:39

that's kind of your conclusion

5:43

in those earlier

5:45

phases , that really sets your relationship up

5:47

for

5:49

hopefully , some goodness for

5:52

the rest of your time together , whereas

5:54

if you don't , what happens

5:56

is you kind

5:59

of get in stuck places and your relationship

6:01

actually just gets stuck and

6:03

you might progress together

6:05

still , but you're progressing

6:07

together with sort of the negative

6:09

patterns

6:12

and the hard feelings

6:15

and the resentment and those kinds of things and so

6:17

the future ?

6:17

Well , that's when you hear the things about like roommates . You know like we're at

6:19

best we're roommates . We're just thankful that we

6:21

operate fairly . You know good as co-parents

6:24

.

6:25

Or I mean honestly . I mean there's , you

6:28

know we've seen it a lot

6:30

. But also there is , you

6:33

know , studies have been done , like oftentimes when

6:36

all the kids leave .

6:37

Or are about to . I was thinking that too .

6:38

Yeah , you are about to , because those are

6:40

the rush ups , late high school and , yeah

6:42

, things split up .

6:44

Well , guess why now we were doing this for

6:46

them and now they're gone , and now it's , and

6:48

that is very disorienting for

6:50

kids especially .

6:53

And so then the question is like okay

6:55

, so like what are ? Like

6:58

, what's going on , you know , like

7:01

I was thinking about this the other

7:03

day , like what

7:05

kind of creates the level

7:07

of intensity between

7:10

parenting partners in this early

7:12

, early stage ? Like , why does it

7:14

, why do things feel so

7:16

crucial and

7:18

vital and important

7:21

? Does that make sense ?

7:23

Is like I think so .

7:25

I keep trying to judge how you're looking at me

7:27

, and you're looking at me with confusion and

7:30

part of me feels like it's cause I'm asking a bad question

7:32

, or you're just like I don't

7:34

really know what he's talking about . Which

7:37

which direction is it ? Do you hear

7:39

bad questions ? You don't know what I'm talking about .

7:42

I can tell you right now what my face is .

7:44

Oh , okay , If y'all could see

7:46

your face , it's it , it

7:49

would .

7:49

We're going to need to start posting these on YouTube so we

7:51

can hear .

7:52

It would cause you to feel unsettled . I

7:54

feel unsettled right now . Is

7:56

there anything you want , you

7:58

know ? Okay , it's my turn

8:01

, all right . So one of the things I

8:03

was thinking about why

8:05

it feels so

8:08

intense is because I think that oftentimes

8:11

, when you become a parent , you

8:14

are working hard

8:16

to either replicate your

8:21

caregiving experience

8:23

, because you valued it so much and you thought it was

8:25

so wonderful , or

8:28

change your caregiving

8:30

experience through , like how

8:32

you care for your kid , because you didn't want that

8:35

.

8:35

Intentionally are you suggesting people know that they're

8:38

making that decision ?

8:38

I think most of it is not in

8:41

our awareness .

8:42

Okay , then I'm with you , I agree

8:44

, yeah okay , all right , Her face has changed

8:47

.

8:47

She's nodding , she's affirming

8:49

, she's tracking with where I'm

8:51

going . I'm being more clear . So

8:55

I think that that's one of the things , because I

8:57

think the intensity is I

8:59

want so badly to give

9:01

my kids what I had

9:03

, or I want so badly to

9:06

change for my kids what I

9:08

experienced .

9:09

Okay . So I think the way that I would say that

9:11

for myself and my own experience

9:13

, which I think is just a restating what you're saying- but

9:15

for myself is I want my kids

9:17

to have the best I want them

9:20

to . I want to give them every opportunity

9:22

I loved and none of the opportunities

9:24

that caused me harm .

9:25

I think that's what you're saying .

9:27

But I have felt , very aware of that , like

9:29

I would give my

9:32

kids anything that

9:34

I could , and

9:37

I think that what is

9:39

sometimes missing or is that

9:41

sort of like a couple layers

9:44

or very , very many

9:46

layers below that yes

9:48

is not knowing where that is

9:50

coming from , and I think that gets partners

9:53

into trouble .

9:54

Yeah , just feeling some level of , I

9:56

really think , sometimes like panic or fear , or

9:58

just so much energy

10:01

around . I want this so badly , but you're

10:03

not really sure why , why

10:06

it matters so much . I think because

10:10

I think that so like , if I think about us , so

10:12

I would say like I had a caregiving

10:14

experience that I'm kind of like I'd like to

10:16

not replicate that . I want to change

10:19

that and I feel really passionate about

10:21

that . I really want that to be the case . I

10:24

think for you . You probably have a little bit

10:26

of that too , but

10:29

also there's more parts

10:31

for you where you're like there's a lot that I do wanna replicate

10:34

about my caregiving

10:36

experience . Yeah , certainly . And

10:38

so Aaron and I we

10:41

come into a relationship and

10:43

we don't really like we

10:45

know we want the best right , we want

10:47

the best for each other and we want the best for our kids

10:49

. And then you think , and we're on the same page

10:51

about that .

10:52

And the thing is is Because we for

10:54

sure must agree what the best is .

10:56

Right , right , your desire is the best . But

10:59

then you start parenting and it's like , oh , wait

11:01

a second , you're

11:04

not approaching getting at the best the same

11:06

way I am . And then

11:09

it begins to be like oh , maybe you don't

11:11

want what

11:13

I want , oh , maybe I

11:15

can't believe you're saying that or doing

11:17

that with our kids . Like who are

11:20

you ?

11:20

And then it begins to feel very

11:22

Desperate , I think

11:24

sometimes yes , I wouldn't

11:27

have used the word desperate , but that I get that . I think what

11:29

I was going to say is critical . I Say

11:32

more well , and maybe that's just maybe

11:34

you have felt desperate and I felt critical .

11:37

No , I don't think I felt that I mean but

11:40

critical , I think credit critical matches

11:42

for me too . I like I would .

11:44

I would say that I think I don't think

11:46

I notice , I don't think I'm aware like , oh , I

11:48

wish Steven wasn't doing that , because that doesn't

11:50

feel aligned with how I had envisioned

11:53

my golfer . I'm just like stop

11:55

doing that . It's bad . Don't you see

11:57

their faces , don't ?

12:00

well , I think , another little extra layer

12:02

just for me and you is , so you know we both

12:04

have these advanced degrees

12:07

and . You know psychology

12:09

, and so we not . Only is it that we

12:11

have these just experiential

12:14

ideas about what we think parenting should be , we

12:16

both have , you know , like well

12:18

, I haven't had , I haven't education , and why

12:21

I know , and we're both a little bit Opinionated

12:24

and stubborn .

12:25

I would say we both are strong-willed and have firm

12:27

back . Great

12:29

reframe but I also . I don't think we've ever used

12:31

our educations at each other .

12:32

I think for the most part of the patients have been aligned , sure

12:35

you ? Do feel very strongly about what we feel

12:37

very Right within that and

12:39

it's like you know , you know to achieve this kind

12:41

of experience like , and you

12:43

know we we need to do this . I

12:45

was sorry , go ahead .

12:48

I was talking with a friend at our kids

12:50

soccer practice this week and

12:52

they were making the comment about couples .

12:55

You know , people are always asking what we do and yeah

12:57

, things we talk about and they're

12:59

always like , oh are you are you judging

13:01

us and you know we're like always

13:03

. Yeah , I wrote up some notes . I'd

13:06

like to send you and your partner home with them , you know

13:08

, review them and let me know what you think .

13:09

I mean , it happens all the time it does , and it almost never

13:12

happens , and honestly , we don't do

13:14

that , because that's all

13:16

I mean . I just want to hang out

13:18

. I don't want to think about that stuff if I don't

13:20

have to so this person was asking

13:22

about what we did you know what , anything we've

13:24

talked about , you know whatever . And she said

13:27

that they had gone to counseling at one point and she said the most

13:29

valuable take away she had from her entire experience

13:32

is this therapist telling them

13:34

that they're

13:36

imagine that there was a number between

13:38

them . And then she a 12

13:41

. No , they didn't get to fix it before I

13:43

. Know you're gonna say

13:45

one more thing . I Okay six

13:47

.

13:48

Yes , so she said Okay

13:53

, you just affirmed it and just shut me down . Yes

13:55

, a six , steven . Thank you .

13:57

No , it is .

13:59

Oh , I thought you're just like your child .

14:03

No , um

14:05

, yes , and then she

14:08

said but imagine it between the two of you . And then

14:10

she was like and then so , aaron and Steven's Aaron

14:12

, you're looking at a six right , yes , so

14:15

Steven , what does that mean ?

14:16

You're looking at it's between

14:18

us , oh , man , I

14:21

feel like I'm gonna give the wrong answer .

14:23

Six and nine oh because

14:25

of the direction . Yeah , okay , yeah , and she

14:27

said y'all can sit there and fight , and fight , and fight and fight

14:29

about what

14:32

the number actually is , but the thing is , you've

14:34

got different perspectives , right . You're

14:37

looking at you're both right , You're you're

14:39

not one wrong and you can . You cannot

14:41

convince the other one that they're wrong because they're

14:43

right and the point Is not to convince

14:45

the other .

14:47

Well , the point is that you have to . Effort is exhausting

14:49

.

14:49

Yeah , if you're already exhausted , which we are

14:51

right .

14:52

I am exhausted every day

14:54

.

14:56

I .

14:58

Just .

15:02

You don't ? I mean that is just such a waste of .

15:05

Your energy and connection . Yeah

15:08

just the like and I think well

15:10

, that's oppositional Right , like , even like

15:12

, if you're looking at that and and if your thought

15:14

is like , I need you to have my perspective

15:17

and that's just not gonna happen

15:19

, like that's not a connective feeling

15:21

, just period right .

15:23

So , and I think a lot of times now

15:25

here's the thing I am not trying to say that parenting

15:28

is one of those situations where it doesn't mean like you

15:30

have to agree that this philosophy

15:32

your partner has , that you firmly

15:35

do not agree with , has to be

15:37

like , well , we just let them do it their way , like

15:39

that's not the case . But we do approach

15:42

these things with our own perspective , our

15:44

own story , our own histories of I liked

15:46

this , I didn't like that . And

15:48

then I think where it gets really thorny is Fair

15:52

or not . I have a perspective

15:54

on Steven's upbringing . I

15:57

have heard stories , I have even experienced

15:59

him with some of his care Well

16:02

, all of them , I guess , yeah , with your family , and

16:05

and it impacts me- if you

16:07

can't tell Aaron's perspective , is

16:09

this very positive ?

16:11

There are positive things .

16:14

And I think you would say the same that you are

16:16

deeply impacted by my caregiving experience

16:19

sure , yes , yes .

16:21

Because we are , and so I am not neutral

16:23

about Some of the stories

16:26

I know yeah , because you might see me and

16:28

I might do something that is reminiscent of

16:30

what you have seen . One

16:32

of my caregivers do and even

16:34

maybe heard me say like I didn't really like that , but

16:36

I'm doing it , I'm repeating , and you're like

16:38

no , no , no , no , no , no . Don't

16:40

do that , that's not in line with

16:42

what is the best for

16:44

our kid , for our

16:47

kids , and that really

16:49

activates a ton of energy

16:51

, and Go

16:54

ahead well , I think that energy is what

16:56

can be the block between us then , because

16:58

typically how that comes out for me is

17:00

Criticism yes is

17:03

saying don't do that .

17:04

You didn't like it . When your parents do that to you , why on earth

17:07

would you do that to our kids ? Rather than saying

17:09

whoa . I

17:11

felt like that was something you didn't really appreciate . Are

17:13

you aware of it ?

17:14

right .

17:15

That's what just happened , because it really looked like that to me

17:17

. What did it feel like for you ? That Curiosity

17:19

and compassion goes straight out the window . I see my kids

17:22

looking threatened

17:24

whether or not they are because I have

17:26

made that mistake a few times

17:28

, just like once or twice where I'm like they

17:31

didn't like that and then later like they're like oh , I didn't

17:33

notice , or I didn't like , yeah

17:35

, you know , dad just seemed like in a bad mood

17:37

. I'm like , well , it bothered me , didn't

17:39

bother me like , oh , but

17:41

, but when I do , I mean we have both

17:44

come at our kids in ways we

17:46

are not proud of , would not do it again

17:48

?

17:48

and when I sense that you

17:51

become a threat to me , because you are a threat to my

17:53

kids and I will and the same for me , like

17:55

if I sense you interacting with

17:57

them in a way that I just am like

17:59

that is not the best , that's not creating

18:02

the you know the kind of feeling

18:05

or relationship , and

18:07

it's interesting . I would say we want , which

18:10

I do think we want , but really it's like that

18:12

I want for them , like

18:15

because it's coming out of my story

18:18

yeah it's

18:21

very like , what are you doing ? And

18:23

it can become very critical and yeah

18:26

, it just then it pits you against each

18:28

other .

18:29

Yeah , and then kids go to sleep and

18:31

now you're still a threat to me , I'm still a threat

18:33

to you . We've got this cast in between

18:35

us and it's like say you were wrong

18:37

.

18:37

Yeah , and then you're gonna argue the finer points and you don't

18:39

really say that or maybe you do .

18:41

I mean , we've never actually said say you were wrong , right

18:43

, but it's like hey .

18:44

I need you to hear from you why . I need

18:46

you to tell me why

18:49

you know you were wrong from what you just did

18:51

and you're like what . Like

18:53

, and then you can get all defensive , and

18:56

so I think that I

18:58

think that there's like I kind of see it as

19:00

a multiple

19:02

steps in a sense . I think first of all

19:04

, partners have

19:07

to recognize that

19:09

and I love what you just said . Like every

19:12

parent comes to their parenting experience

19:14

wanting the best for their kid , I

19:16

think that that's a good fundamental thought

19:19

generally . We're

19:21

just gonna generally that is how

19:23

a parent comes to the endeavor of parenting

19:25

. Then I think the next step is to think

19:27

about but you have

19:30

to be mindful of , based on

19:32

your caregiving experience as

19:34

a kid , how that informs

19:37

what you want in

19:39

parenting your kids . Because

19:44

that's the part where we're

19:46

looking at the six , and

19:49

it's a six and a nine , where I'm thinking

19:51

like I want this , this is

19:53

really important to me . Aaron's

19:55

thinking I want this , this is really important

19:58

to me and

20:00

we think we've agreed on

20:02

that's the best . And that's where it begins to

20:04

feel like a tug of war or where you can

20:06

have these miscommunications and these sort

20:08

of mis , you

20:11

know , kind of alignments

20:13

I would say is that Sure

20:15

yeah . And then I think , from

20:18

that point , what you have

20:20

to do is actually then

20:23

actually have the conversation about what

20:26

would we consider the best being

20:28

for our kids , and how do we want to go about

20:30

doing that ? Recognizing that

20:32

you can't agree on every point

20:35

, point yes , what

20:37

do you think ?

20:38

I was just thinking .

20:40

She's got that kind of questioning . Look again .

20:42

Well , yeah , it is a questioning of self , though

20:44

. None of you , for once

20:46

.

20:46

Finally , oh , oh .

20:51

We have talked about this . I have talked about this I'll

20:54

probably use so many times on this podcast already

20:56

because they talk about it all the time in life . But

20:59

in graduate school one of the teacher's

21:01

assistants wrote on one of my papers like well

21:03

, in high school I was in an advanced writing

21:05

class and the professor said Fancy

21:08

. I was in an English

21:10

class and

21:12

the professor wrote , or the teacher

21:15

at that point wrote . Just because you say it , so it doesn't make

21:17

it so , and I remember being like yes

21:19

, it does . I don't know what that means and

21:22

I kind of really did it . And then in graduate

21:24

school this TA wrote how

21:27

Can you explain how

21:29

you came to this ? And I think sometimes that is

21:32

a question that we are genuinely missing

21:34

in our own selves and

21:36

of our family , like

21:38

the how , the how . Yes , so

21:40

like I want what's best , and

21:43

what's best is for us to

21:45

be able for our kids

21:47

to know that they can come to us

21:50

like with something big

21:52

hard , exciting hard , sad with anger , that

21:54

like they can come to us and we will be for them , that

21:56

we are with them , we are for them and we can

21:58

hold all of that energy . How

22:01

Cause

22:03

, I think ?

22:03

we can both be like yeah , yeah , cause I'm like yeah

22:05

, right on , I'm like , yeah , girl , yeah , that's

22:07

right , yeah , but how

22:10

that looks I mean well

22:12

, because I know us it

22:16

has been very different .

22:17

Right , and so then I think that how probably

22:20

leads to at least a few more hows . So

22:22

, like I would say , one of the

22:24

ways we could do that is by being

22:26

very open with our own struggles , like I

22:28

would say and that was definitely

22:30

true for me and my mom . So you would say , like how did

22:32

that come to be a value of yours ? Like well , I

22:34

know that when I was in grade school , like I

22:36

would come to my mom with some tough stuff , like

22:39

I'm fighting with my friend about this or I got

22:41

this grade on that , and my teacher told

22:43

me that I wasn't . I

22:45

legitimately failed my capitals test in fifth

22:47

grade . I didn't study and I came home like I forgot

22:50

there was a test I just didn't remember and I couldn't remember

22:52

any of them . Like and

22:54

my mom would say , like oh my goodness , I remember

22:56

when that happened to me . That doesn't mean you don't

22:59

know doesn't mean , you never will , doesn't

23:01

mean .

23:01

Right , right , well , and that's so interesting

23:03

that that how

23:06

question for you , because I would say the same thing

23:08

. I would say , you know , I

23:10

want our kids to be able to express what's going

23:12

on for them and to you know , have that

23:14

experience . And then

23:16

for me , part of like and

23:18

you know , and how you build sort of the

23:21

freedom to do that and strength

23:23

and all that kind of stuff is , I can jump

23:25

pretty quickly to like , okay , you've done that and

23:27

now like , like

23:31

, how are you gonna shift and how are you gonna

23:33

kind of move forward and how ?

23:35

are you gonna Like , we don't wanna sit in that for too long , you mean ?

23:37

Yeah , yeah . And I think that

23:40

theoretically or fundamentally , we're

23:42

like , yes , we want our kids to do that , but

23:45

my caregiving experience was

23:47

one like you never did that period like

23:49

not even for like one minute .

23:52

What affirmed your tough experience ?

23:53

You never expressed how you were feeling and

23:55

if it was sad and if it was- .

23:57

Or even happy .

23:58

Or even happy . It was like we

24:01

don't care , you know , or there's no

24:03

space here for that , and so I

24:05

think for me , in my way , I'm like I'm

24:07

sitting here , it has been seven

24:09

minutes and I am just man

24:11

, I'm just really listening and I'm

24:13

just really creating this space , and

24:16

now it's time

24:18

to you know . We need

24:20

to transition out of this . And

24:23

yet but I'm thinking I'm doing the best right .

24:25

We are about to have a real life parenting moment , though

24:27

.

24:27

Like a couple of moments , because I have

24:29

an experience of that .

24:31

I don't think that's true of you at all . Oh

24:33

, I think you will sit with our kids

24:35

for ever

24:38

.

24:39

I have like seven million still

24:41

shots what reality have I been living in

24:43

? I've been just holding

24:45

them .

24:47

I think one of our kids' core

24:49

memories , according to me , is

24:52

that they will feel physically

24:54

and emotionally held by you , and

24:56

so I'm like one of you , I mean I can that's

24:58

interesting yeah .

24:59

But I'm sure but I'm sure there's times that I've done , like

25:02

I think that there have been , because

25:05

I'm also remembering moments where

25:07

I've done what I just described and

25:09

you being like Easy

25:11

, hey , mr Sensitive , like

25:14

what are you doing ? Like you're

25:16

rushing them . So I'm glad , you

25:18

know , maybe it's a little bit of both , but-

25:20

.

25:21

But I also think that that's context dependent

25:23

, right Like , even the how Like

25:27

, because , again , if

25:29

I'm being super honest , I think there are- .

25:31

You know , I didn't really want to do this to like

25:33

talk about me necessarily , so-

25:35

.

25:36

That's what I use this platform for .

25:38

I have some things I'd like to cover with you . Steven , I'm gonna

25:41

do it on the podcast .

25:44

But I think we all have different levels of

25:46

comfort with every single emotion .

25:48

I know where you're going , all

25:50

of us .

25:52

And so there are , and that is completely

25:55

dependent until we have done emotional

25:57

relational work and maybe even still

25:59

then , based on our

26:01

experience .

26:02

Yeah .

26:03

And I think there

26:05

are when our kids are hurt- .

26:08

Oh , I'm putty . But when they're excited

26:10

or joyful , I'm like let's get , let's

26:12

keep moving . I mean , right , is that what

26:14

you're Sometimes those are slower or if

26:16

they're very angry . Ooh , that's

26:18

right .

26:19

That it's like I hear you , I validate you , and now

26:21

we have to find the silver lining .

26:22

This is so true . Thank you for covering these

26:25

things with me . I'm really learning something , I feel like I'm

26:27

oh , I am . But

26:29

because that is true , like , so in my experience

26:33

, like

26:37

the anger was expressed in my family

26:39

in ways that

26:41

were not , they

26:45

were scary , and so anger is very scary

26:48

, right , and then excitement

26:51

and joy and kind

26:54

of enthusiasm Pointless , yeah

26:56

, it just weren't , you know , it was

26:58

just sort of . It was always

27:01

countered with like well , you

27:03

know what it could all go to , you know

27:05

what , pretty quickly . So I

27:07

mean , don't get too excited , like , and so those

27:10

were really just uncomfortable expressions

27:13

. But yeah

27:15

, like , if our like the sadness

27:17

or the pain or

27:20

the hurt , I do feel more comfortable with that because

27:23

I tried to soothe my own soul , probably

27:25

, again , it's soccer

27:27

this week different practice , because we have

27:30

a lot of kids doing a lot of soccer .

27:31

A lot of them , yeah , but I was sitting around which is totally

27:34

going to show you a little insight into me

27:36

with all the kids , like all the siblings . It was me and

27:38

all the siblings sitting in a Just chit chat .

27:40

You know , it's true .

27:41

It's true , and all these kids were talking

27:43

about like their parents and it was

27:45

great , like I just love I always

27:48

love hearing kids' insights into this , and

27:50

at one point , one of our kids said something about like

27:52

when our dad's out of town , our

27:56

mom would still protect us , and we have a dog

27:58

, so our dog would protect us . This was

28:00

in context of some other things other kids were

28:02

saying , and

28:05

this one , one of our kids

28:07

, was like yeah , but if our dad was home

28:09

and we got hurt , ooh , he'd

28:11

be like a mama bear .

28:13

And I was like , yes , yes , that is

28:15

true , that is true , that is a known thing , yeah , yeah .

28:18

I think the other reason , is this relevant other than I wanted

28:20

to talk to Steven about ? Some things is

28:22

so I can focus me

28:25

personally on the ways that

28:27

Steven might rush me and our

28:29

kids through anger or excitement

28:31

.

28:31

Excitement yeah .

28:33

And completely miss the

28:36

care and attachment

28:38

building moments that he provides for all

28:40

of us , when we are sad or

28:42

overwhelmed or hurt , because

28:45

it's endless , your well there is

28:47

. I've never found the end . It

28:49

is just and for me

28:52

to come in and say you have no capacity for our

28:54

kids' emotions .

28:54

Yeah , yeah .

28:55

It's wrong , that is in that moment

28:58

I might be feeling that , but that is a miss , and

29:00

it can feel really hurtful , like well

29:02

, for obvious reasons . But

29:05

it's also not the full

29:07

story and I think we've got

29:10

to understand ourselves and our partners

29:12

full stories to the best of

29:14

our abilities . And you know these ways as

29:17

Time progresses , because

29:19

they they change , so that we don't

29:21

miss these

29:23

moments of goodness and these shared experiences

29:26

and these ways that we're like one , how you are aligned

29:28

, on what you Want is aligned .

29:30

Yes , because I hear that and I think that

29:32

that is so true . I appreciate that like

29:34

from the standpoint of like that I have

29:36

, I do oh my god , I'll offer

29:38

that .

29:39

If anybody wants email me , I'll send you 75

29:41

million pictures .

29:43

Of me holding our kids while they're crying . Yeah

29:48

well , I think , the safest place in

29:50

the whole world for them and I

29:52

think , maybe I think you're pretty good with

29:55

the kids in those moments Too pretty

29:57

good guys , that's . That's a high

29:59

, probably probably not as good as I am . You

30:01

know , maybe like a six on a

30:03

scale out 10 . I'm probably like an eight , I'm

30:05

something like that .

30:08

But I know , laughing only

30:10

encourage .

30:12

Like why ? Why do I

30:14

? But I , I think

30:16

that how we can end up on the

30:18

best is , like I do , how

30:21

we can end up on the same page in terms of

30:23

best I get it is . I do

30:25

recognize that anger and the enjoyment

30:27

Are things I can struggle with , but I

30:29

think you're all you're great at that

30:32

.

30:32

I can enjoy someone for you Can .

30:34

I think you struggle sometimes when the kids are set , like

30:36

you , to be a little sensitive and so , in

30:38

a sense , like we Like

30:40

, and that is all based on attachment experience . That's

30:42

all based on our early caregiving experience

30:44

and and rather than arguing

30:47

about it and rather than getting in

30:49

a fight about it , we can kind of borrow one

30:51

another's strengths . Correct , if we

30:53

have had these conversations about

30:55

well , what is the best in this situation

30:58

? And I love that how question like so

31:00

, if we want our kids to be able to come

31:02

to us and express Any

31:04

range of emotions , like how would

31:07

that look ? And and that

31:09

is how you get on the the same

31:11

page of we're doing the best and

31:13

in moments where you feel like you haven't quite

31:17

Landed where you wanted

31:19

to kind of like a meeting , like

31:21

rather than saying like you didn't do it

31:23

, like what it would be like .

31:26

How could we have done this ? Yeah , yeah , this moment

31:28

, so I like not exactly aligned with it

31:30

, like how could this have felt better ?

31:32

How could we yeah ?

31:33

how could this have felt more aligned with our values

31:35

, with our we ? One

31:37

of the things we talk about at our membership is like a family

31:39

ethic . That is important to us .

31:41

Different couples that do that , yeah

31:43

kind of like a family vision of like

31:45

how you want to be , who you want to be yeah

31:47

, we call ours a family ethic Based

31:50

on an ethics class .

31:51

I had one .

31:52

It's just so . That's why we call it .

31:54

Yeah , but it works for us . Yeah

31:56

, but like so for us to be like that

31:58

did not feel like that went according to our

32:00

family ethic .

32:01

Yeah , how we want to be , yeah how could we have ?

32:04

you know , let's redo that in our minds

32:06

like let's talk this out and how

32:09

to get there well one .

32:11

Actually , I think too , this is how this

32:16

is how , like these

32:19

conversations Actually

32:21

can be connective , can

32:24

cannot feel like intense and oppositional

32:26

. But when you're asking the

32:28

question of like how , how do we want to do this , like

32:30

I , I think we're on the same page , but

32:32

I , but how we implement this might look a little different . How

32:36

could we , how could we do it ? It like it , and it's actually

32:38

fun , like I mean . I actually feel like I've learned Quite

32:42

a bit even just having this conversation with you .

32:46

But I think the other important thing is the how . If you can

32:48

begin to replace that , no

32:52

, if you can begin to replace why with how , yeah , like why did you

32:54

do it ? Why would you do that ?

32:55

Yeah , why ? I mean even with our kids , like how could how , how did that

32:57

happen ?

32:59

How did this come to be ? Or like , how

33:02

did that feel like a good idea ? Yeah , no , I

33:04

don't mean that one , but like it is so much less accusatory

33:06

than why would you do that ?

33:11

Yeah , why it sets off a lot of things , why it

33:13

sets off all the alarm bells when someone

33:15

says why I don't even think I can say the word why

33:17

without being like why ? Like .

33:21

My fingers , clench my shoulders

33:23

like everything's tight , and then how is like

33:25

? I'm actually curious how

33:27

could we do this ? Yeah , what's that ?

33:30

Yeah , and so you know , you and your

33:32

partner Most likely you

33:35

both want the best for your kids , but

33:38

how are you gonna get there ?

33:40

It high five high five .

33:42

How are you gonna get there ? But

33:44

but to know how , I

33:46

think you also kind of have to know the history that's

33:48

informing like how you might Individually

33:51

think that you need to get there and then

33:53

you want to come together and how those

33:55

became your values . Yeah , yeah , and

33:58

so you want to . You want to have that shared vision together

34:00

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34:02

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34:04

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34:20

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34:22

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34:25

on a healthy couple relationship is Good

34:27

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