0:02

Welcome to courageous leadership with Travis

0:04

Yeats , where leaders find the insights

0:06

, advice and encouragement they

0:08

need to lead courageously .

0:12

Welcome back to the show . I'm so excited

0:14

that you've dedicated a few minutes of

0:16

your day with us . I'm very , very grateful

0:19

. If you haven't already given us that five-star

0:21

review and told your friends about us , please do

0:23

so . It certainly helps others seeing

0:26

our message . We're trying to give leaders the

0:28

tools they need each and every week to

0:30

make them better , to make them courageous , to

0:32

make this profession much better

0:35

, and today's guest is

0:37

doing more than her part

0:39

in that area . I'm very excited

0:41

to have Stephanie Kiesow on

0:43

the show . She's a former police officer . She's

0:45

a cop wife , cop daughter , turned PhD

0:48

student , studying research topics

0:50

that include workplace contributing factors

0:53

to suicide , and this became the foundation

0:55

of what I got to tell you is one of the

0:57

best books I've read to date

0:59

on the topic . It's an excellent book called Work

1:02

Aside how to Overcome a Career-Related

1:04

Decline in Mental Health and

1:06

Reignite your Passion for Work and

1:09

Life . Great title , great

1:11

book . Stephanie , how are you doing ?

1:14

Wow , that was amazing . Thank you so much , Travis

1:17

.

1:17

Yeah .

1:18

I'm doing fantastic . Super happy

1:20

to be here with you .

1:21

Well , I started noticing you online a little

1:24

bit and I saw your book and this interested

1:26

me and I grabbed a book and I got to tell

1:28

you you know I've got I'm kind of a book

1:30

junkie . I don't even like the digital books , I'm

1:32

kind of a book junkie and I've got probably close

1:34

to a thousand on mainly the topic

1:37

of leadership and all things around that , one being

1:39

wellness . And your book

1:41

caught my eye . But the contents are much

1:43

better than just the eye catching cover

1:45

because it's a beautiful book

1:47

. And I just got to ask you , like

1:50

, what made you set out on this endeavor

1:52

? Because it's obviously , when you look at the book

1:54

, it's . It was a ton of work into this , it's

1:56

a lifetime of work . So kind of tell us your

1:58

thought process on how we're staring at this great book

2:00

right now .

2:02

Yeah , I appreciate the question . You know , I

2:05

, to be quite honest , did not

2:07

have it in my five or 10 year plan

2:09

to sit down and write a book and have it published

2:11

and all the things . But

2:14

when I left my cop job well

2:16

, actually prior , when I when I

2:19

was a police officer , then even before

2:21

that , I was a dispatcher , you know , growing

2:23

up in law enforcement both my folks are retired

2:25

, now police officers and

2:28

I just saw that there were so many

2:30

people struggling but

2:33

because of stigma and perceived

2:36

retaliation and all the things , nobody

2:38

really reached out . But they were sort of beating

2:41

around the bush that they wanted resources

2:44

and they wanted education , but nobody really

2:46

wanted to raise their hand and say outright

2:48

hey , I'm looking for some support

2:50

, I'm looking for some help . And

2:53

so , because of experiences

2:56

like that and then unfortunately , losing

2:58

some loved ones

3:00

to on duty , suicides

3:02

that was sort of the foundation

3:05

for me wanting to help

3:07

in that area . But it really wasn't until I

3:09

left my cop job in

3:11

in 2022 that I realized

3:14

that there were so

3:16

many people outside of just my

3:18

department that felt the exact same , and

3:21

so really the motivation for the book

3:23

was I want someone

3:25

who might be

3:27

struggling internally . Maybe

3:29

they're even struggling externally via

3:31

suicidal behaviors

3:34

, alcoholism , substance

3:36

abuse , all the things , and

3:38

I wanted them to be able to get

3:40

solid research

3:43

and information and education on how to better

3:45

themselves , how to get help to get

3:47

out of the dark places that they might find themselves

3:49

in on their own in their home

3:51

, without having to reach out if they

3:53

don't yet feel comfortable . So that really was

3:56

the ultimate motivation .

3:57

And I think that's what sets the book apart is , you

3:59

know , obviously there's this is a hot topic

4:01

, you know , and I don't like to say it's the flavor

4:04

of the month , but I personally I see a lot of leaders

4:06

saying they're doing something but they're not

4:08

really doing anything , because it's popular to say

4:10

you're doing something and

4:12

I know the profession is much needed . But I think that's what sets

4:14

it apart . Is there's other resources out there , but

4:16

this is really research based . I mean , it's

4:18

really it's hard to question what's in this

4:20

book because of that research . Is that why you wanted to

4:22

go that route ?

4:24

Absolutely . Yeah , I wanted it to be more than

4:26

just my experiences

4:28

and sort of the anecdotal perspective

4:32

, which is certainly important and that is

4:34

in the book , but I wanted

4:36

it to be other people's experiences as

4:38

well . So there's like over 50 different

4:40

police officers and non-sport employees

4:42

and dispatchers that gave me part

4:45

of their story to include in the book

4:48

, which I think sets

4:50

really it

4:54

really showcases that we're all linked because

4:56

of a lot of similar experiences and

4:59

then even more so , like you said , the research component

5:01

just really solidifies everything

5:03

that we are feeling in law

5:05

enforcement . This is normal

5:08

and there are ways to

5:10

combat certain feelings and emotions and

5:12

experiences and traumas . I wanted

5:14

to include the research

5:17

component because I didn't want it to just be

5:19

my opinion in the book .

5:21

No , it's , it's absolutely solid work and

5:23

it's just really really good . It's

5:26

one of these books I think Stephanie will defy time

5:28

, which , if you can accomplish that with the book . it

5:30

says something . There's a reason why we still read Dr

5:33

Gil Martin's 25 year book . Right

5:35

, I think we were right beside there . You should certainly be

5:37

proud of it . And the title is

5:39

very important . You call it work

5:41

aside and you spend a whole chapter kind of

5:43

defining what this is . Now we don't want to give

5:45

them everything we need to buy the book , but

5:47

just kind of because that's the foundation of this and

5:49

that's the foundation of your research and your studies

5:52

kind of talk about what work aside is .

5:54

Yeah , absolutely so

5:56

. Work aside , which , if

5:59

nobody is in front of that , that

6:01

term it's the new term and

6:03

so it's spelled similar to suicide

6:06

, which is death by self , or homicide

6:08

, which is death by others . Work

6:10

aside is death by career , either

6:13

in sort of a figurative sense

6:15

or in a literal sense . And so

6:17

I walk the readers

6:19

through specific

6:22

workplace contributing factors to

6:24

a decline in mental health , which I

6:26

talk about as internal work aside

6:28

, and or work related

6:31

suicide , which I call external

6:33

work aside , and

6:35

I talk about the three

6:38

to four just big similarities

6:40

that I saw over and over

6:42

and over again , not only in my

6:44

role as a police officer and

6:46

seeing it in my colleagues and my leaders and

6:50

those around me , but also

6:52

in the literature and the research . And

6:55

so I really wanted

6:58

to come up with a term

7:00

that explained

7:03

simply the feelings that

7:05

I and , frankly , a lot of other people have

7:07

felt on the job . And so

7:10

work aside just kind of naturally

7:12

came out , and I think it's a perfect fit and

7:14

I think a lot of people resonate with the title , which

7:16

is why it's become pretty popular

7:18

.

7:19

No , absolutely . The title was the start

7:21

, but the contents are so much better and

7:24

that one particular sentence struck

7:26

me when I read it and you said this is

7:29

you discussed that law enforcement is trained

7:31

for battle but not for

7:33

an enemy that you call the traumatic mind

7:36

. Try to explain to folks what that traumatic

7:38

mind is .

7:40

Yeah , yeah , I

7:43

talk about quite a bit in the book and

7:45

I do certain

7:47

presentations and education

7:49

and teachings and such , and

7:52

it's always been interesting to me that through

7:55

the academy , through the field training process

7:57

, even prior to that , really in dispatch and

7:59

just growing up we're trained for , we're trained

8:05

to combat people that might

8:08

be trying to hurt us , kill us right , we

8:10

go through hundreds , if not thousands

8:12

, of hours in the academy and FTO and then

8:14

in your career , what if somebody

8:16

is trying to hurt you , hurt others , come out

8:18

after you , kill you , ambush you , all the things . But

8:20

what if the person who's trying to hurt me is me

8:23

? Why have I never received

8:25

training on that ? Specific

8:27

to first responders , specific to law enforcement

8:29

and the reason why I mentioned

8:32

that . I always knew

8:34

that

8:36

suicidal ideations , a decline in

8:38

mental health , work , occupational

8:41

stressors and traumas I always knew

8:43

that was a thing in law enforcement but it really wasn't

8:45

until I had a conversation with a clinician

8:47

and this clinician

8:50

said to me one day we were talking

8:52

about suicide prevention and all the work that

8:54

I've been trying to do and the frustration

8:56

that I had that there's just such a stigma

8:58

still to this day . That

9:01

really puts up a wall with

9:04

a lot of the help that people like me are

9:07

trying to , you know

9:09

, wait through . And this clinician said

9:11

you know , expecting

9:15

a first responder , expecting a police

9:17

officer to go through their

9:19

career and not be mentally affected

9:21

by it is like expecting someone to walk

9:23

through water , not get wet . And

9:26

I was like holy shit , yeah

9:28

, that is so true . No one

9:30

has ever talked to us at least

9:32

me at this point about

9:35

the traumas , the occupational

9:37

traumas , the organizational stressors which contribute

9:40

to this accumulation , which

9:42

therefore contributes to

9:45

a decline in my mental health and possibly

9:47

work aside , possibly workplace contributing

9:49

factors to suicide . And

9:51

so my sort of frustration

9:53

turned into motivation , and that was a

9:55

lot of what I talked about in the book , because I think

9:57

we all know it , right , like you and I know

9:59

it , we understand it , we felt it , our colleagues

10:02

probably know it and understand it

10:04

and feel it , but no one's talking about it , and

10:06

so I wanted to be one of the first

10:09

, and you know , if I'm one of the only , that's

10:11

okay too , but I just wanted someone to have

10:13

a conversation about it .

10:15

And part of the problem when we don't talk about it is

10:17

you don't recognize it . And I just

10:19

have a personal story is . You know I sort of prided

10:21

myself on . You know , this job is

10:23

not my identity , this is not who I am

10:26

and I'm this and I'm that . But at the

10:28

end of the day , if you do any job for three

10:30

decades and those are the only people

10:32

you've known since you were 21 years old and you

10:35

one day don't do that job , there's

10:37

some you don't you're having . You

10:39

don't even realize the trauma that

10:42

you were under until you were away from

10:44

the trauma . And then you have , of course , the identity crisis , which

10:46

I want to come up , bring up in a minute . But

10:48

that's why it's so important to discuss

10:50

it , because I think probably if you are

10:53

a police officer for any amount of time , you actually

10:56

have some trauma , but you're

10:58

not aware of it . But it may be manifesting itself

11:00

in other areas and you don't know why that's happened . Is the amount kind of

11:02

on the right track there ?

11:04

Absolutely , and I think you

11:07

are 100% on the right track . Even more

11:09

so when we have first responders that come from the military

11:11

right , because your

11:14

world view is sort of shaped as

11:16

you progress through life

11:19

, as you continue to get older . It's

11:22

shaped from your experiences , and so if you start

11:24

with trauma , perhaps

11:26

from childhood , perhaps 18 to 22

11:28

, if you do four years in the military or even beyond that right , I'm

11:31

a military daughter , sister and wife

11:34

, so I certainly can talk about that

11:36

aspect of the military traumas . But

11:40

then you add on to all of that

11:42

the work stuff , the law enforcement

11:44

stuff , the first responder stuff , and

11:47

so that accumulation of trauma does

11:50

happen to all of us , whether

11:52

we recognize it or not .

11:54

Yeah , and for civilians maybe listen to this is

11:56

the stark difference between law enforcement and the

11:58

military is is the military obviously

12:01

does some very dangerous things , but then

12:03

, after that's over , they typically have an extended

12:05

break . Right when

12:07

they're away from the job or they're training or they're

12:09

relaxing , there's an extended break . Well

12:11

, law enforcement is a five or six or seven day a

12:13

week job , depending on where you work , and you

12:15

could experience a trauma on a Monday , but you're back to

12:17

work on Tuesday and you

12:19

don't even have time to think about the trauma that discovered

12:22

. So by the time you get through your entire career working

12:24

that way and you step

12:26

away from it , those demons tend

12:28

to come out and play , do they not ?

12:31

Absolutely , and the whole reason why this is so important and I love that

12:33

you brought this up is that

12:36

I talk about in the book , three to

12:38

four in law enforcement , four

12:40

big , specific contributing factors

12:42

that I saw over and over and over again in

12:46

relation to not only a decline

12:48

to mental health but work related suicide , and

12:50

one of those four is what I call occupational trauma . There's

12:52

other researchers that

12:54

will call it acquired capability

12:56

or other things , but essentially , in

12:59

order to transition from suicidal

13:01

ideation , suicidal thoughts , to suicidal

13:03

behaviors , the actual act

13:06

of trying to die by suicide , we have to get over the

13:08

very strong sort of ancestral workings of self

13:10

preservation . Right , we

13:15

all have very strong self preservation tendencies

13:17

because our body wants

13:19

to stay alive , and

13:22

so the occupational trauma is important

13:24

because , in order to sort of get over

13:26

that hump , if you will

13:28

, the desensitization to pain and suffering to other human

13:30

beings that law enforcement sees day in and day

13:32

out , every hour , every

13:40

call , is really what contributes to this accumulation

13:42

of trauma , which therefore can be a very important part

13:44

of our lives , and this is really what contributes

13:47

to this accumulation of

13:49

trauma , which therefore contributes

13:51

in a lot of ways to suicidal

13:53

behaviors .

13:54

And when you talk about leadership , because

13:56

obviously they're driving the ship of these agencies

13:59

, other CEOs , what are

14:01

you hearing from them ? What do you see them ? Do they understand

14:03

this ? Do they get this ? What's

14:05

your point of view ?

14:08

You know , I think yes and no . It depends

14:10

on who

14:12

I'm speaking to , right . I

14:15

think some do and some don't . I think some , unfortunately

14:18

, view leadership

14:20

and wellness sort of as this check the

14:22

box thing that they got to

14:24

do right . I'm sure we could probably

14:26

all think of leaders and organizations

14:28

that have taken that stance , but

14:32

I think the healthier

14:35

organizations and more

14:37

effective sort of authentic leaders

14:39

recognize that

14:41

these are things that they and

14:44

their people not only need to be aware of , but

14:46

these are things that we need to actually look

14:48

to mitigate , like

14:51

we need to implement things to

14:53

hopefully prevent , but if not

14:55

at least to mitigate these issues

14:57

. And so I think that the tide is sort of

14:59

sort of shifting a little bit in

15:01

a good way . People are starting to recognize

15:04

that this is something that they should care about . Whether

15:07

they do it for retention purposes

15:09

or hiring purposes or just really authentically

15:12

wanting to take care of their people probably varies

15:14

from department to department , but

15:16

I am happy to see that it is

15:18

starting to become

15:21

a little bit more popular these days

15:23

, for whatever reason .

15:25

Well , it's always courageous to try to step

15:27

outside the box and do something different . And

15:29

these chiefs have these , you know these grant

15:32

sponsored , doj sponsored classes

15:34

for this and that , and it's just so easy to grab

15:36

onto those . Check the box . We did this and move

15:39

on down the road . At the same time

15:41

, with staffing issues in many of these agencies

15:43

, they're working these officers seven days a week

15:45

and the overtime shifts are unlimited , and a

15:47

seven year officer down the road is not going

15:49

to be a seven year officer . When we did it , stephanie , like

15:52

it's , we're going to have some issues if we do

15:54

not figure this stuff out while they're still on the job

15:56

, are we not ?

15:57

Yeah , absolutely , and I always , I always

16:00

remind people , especially the brass

16:02

and the stars bars and whatnot

16:04

. You know , during during my my

16:06

cop and non-sorn career I

16:09

I was sort of the , the

16:11

unofficial , quiet leader right

16:13

In my department . I

16:15

saw too many that were unfortunately

16:17

changed by promotions

16:20

. Their personality

16:23

and leadership style and

16:25

all those things sort of changed for the worst

16:27

once they started to promote , and so I didn't feel

16:29

like I needed the , the stars , bars

16:32

and stripes to make change . And so I think it's

16:34

important to emphasize with everyone

16:36

, not just those that are in a leadership

16:38

role , that every officer is

16:40

a leader in their department , and

16:42

so I think the departments

16:46

that go the long distance

16:48

and have healthy employees

16:50

and more successful outcomes are

16:52

ones that prioritize cultivating

16:55

leaders from day one to field training and

16:57

really prioritize their wellness going forward

17:00

.

17:01

Yeah , you certainly would like to see us moving more

17:03

towards that model , because it's clear that the

17:05

model we're working on now does not work . And

17:08

if you're just now joining us , we're speaking to Stephanie

17:10

Kiesow on her great book

17:12

called work aside and

17:15

, stephanie , we just got to talking about the role leaders

17:17

play . But I want to kind of applaud

17:19

you and encourage everyone to get this book , because

17:21

I love how you dubbed sort

17:24

of the solutions you talk about here . You call it

17:26

the warrior way and I'm just going to tell people

17:28

what . That is real quick . But I want to talk about one in particular

17:30

. The warrior way . It's an acronym W

17:33

for wellness , awareness , resilience

17:35

resources , identity , openness , routine

17:37

. I really love the sound of that

17:39

. I love the contents of each one of those , but

17:42

identity is something that I have personally

17:44

seen around me , even experienced myself

17:46

somewhat the identity crisis in

17:48

law enforcement , whether you're on the job or you're

17:50

no longer on the job . Kind of talk about the impact

17:53

of that , because I'm hearing from a lot of people

17:55

around the country that kind of left and they

17:57

didn't want to leave because of all the nonsense

17:59

going on . So it really wasn't in their plan to

18:01

do that , but they knew they need to do that for their well

18:03

, well being , and they're having

18:05

some feelings they're not familiar

18:07

with and obviously that's an identity issue sort

18:09

of discuss what that

18:11

is and what we can do to help out in that

18:14

area .

18:15

Yeah , absolutely , chapter seven

18:17

is one of my favorites too , so I'm

18:19

glad that you , glad that you enjoyed

18:21

it as well . So , yeah , I talked a

18:23

lot about identity and this

18:26

sort of term that I coined , identity

18:28

devastation , which I think a lot

18:30

of us in law enforcement specifically struggle

18:32

with because of various reasons

18:35

, but especially

18:37

when we either

18:39

voluntarily or unvoluntarily

18:41

, have to transition out of law enforcement , so

18:43

maybe through retirement or

18:46

, you know , we're getting medically penchant

18:48

off because we're

18:50

having an injury or whatever the case may be . And

18:54

so this sense of identity is

18:56

really important because , you

18:58

know , I'm a data nerd , I'm a numbers gal

19:00

, and so 70%

19:03

of us in general

19:06

, just as human beings , feel that we as

19:08

a person are defined by our work . You

19:11

know , we derive a sense of purpose , fulfillment

19:13

from our job . That's usually how we introduce

19:16

ourselves to others , right ? Like when you and I

19:18

first start talking , or we go meet

19:20

somebody at the grocery store and they say

19:22

oh , you know what do you do for work . We say I

19:24

am a blank , right , we don't say

19:26

we do a blank . We say I

19:28

am a cop , I'm a nurse , I'm a firefighter

19:30

, I'm a blank whatever . And so these

19:32

I am statements really

19:35

reinforce our identities within our

19:37

career , which makes them very

19:39

entwined , and so the reason I talk

19:41

about it in the book is , with

19:43

law enforcement specifically . I see this

19:45

another first responder industries as well

19:47

but it's really prevalent and

19:50

, to be quite honest , problematic , more so

19:52

with law enforcement because we become

19:54

our jobs , and I'm

19:57

completely guilty of this as well . You

19:59

know , when I was going through some of the

20:01

darkest days in my career

20:03

, I was like I

20:05

ate , slept and breathed police work

20:08

, like that was who I was , and so

20:10

really anything that threatened

20:12

, either from a perceptual

20:15

sense or otherwise , sort of threatened

20:17

this innate identity that

20:19

I created , it

20:21

really hit me hard . And so , for

20:23

example , you know 2020 , this was a

20:25

hard year for a lot of us in law enforcement

20:28

because of the riots and sort

20:30

of everything going on societally , and

20:33

I really struggled because it felt

20:35

like it felt like a

20:37

fight against Stephanie . It

20:39

wasn't that this was in

20:41

a fight against law enforcement , it was a

20:44

personal attack on me . And

20:46

so I think the identity piece is important

20:48

, especially for our law enforcement professionals

20:51

, because we have to have a multifaceted

20:54

identity in order to not only survive

20:56

this occupation but thrive right

20:58

. We have to remember that we're more than just

21:00

our jobs . We are mothers

21:03

, fathers , brothers , sisters , whatever

21:05

the case may be , baseball lovers , churchgoers

21:07

. We have to have some sort and cultivate

21:09

a multifaceted identity

21:12

, because that's really the only way that we're gonna develop

21:14

healthy coping skills and hobbies

21:16

and have a life outside of the job for

21:18

whenever we no longer

21:20

are in it , because eventually we're gonna leave our jobs

21:23

right , either voluntarily or

21:25

via death , whatever the case may

21:27

be . And so I think I'm

21:29

so happy that you mentioned that , because I think that's

21:31

really an underutilized concept in law

21:34

enforcement is this multifaceted

21:36

identity ?

21:37

Well , you have a profession that pushes identity

21:39

right . I mean it's very

21:41

much a culture of identity , but they don't

21:43

prepare anybody for when the identity

21:46

is taken away , because I can tell you , the minute

21:48

you retire from police department , you

21:50

won't be able to get back in . You're gonna be able to go back to the gym

21:52

, your key card's not gonna work and they're gonna kind of forget

21:54

about you . In a few weeks they're gonna move on . And

21:56

I don't think they do a good enough job of preparing

21:59

people , because so we

22:01

put the identity in you , but we don't do

22:03

anything to sort of ease it out before you leave

22:05

. And that creates a lot of problems , does it not

22:07

?

22:08

Yes , absolutely . I completely agree , and

22:10

the reason why I'm so passionate

22:13

about this specific subject is I honestly

22:15

think that this was the catalyst for

22:17

why my boyfriend in 2011

22:21

died by suicide because

22:23

he was a cop . I was a

22:25

dispatcher at the time . He

22:27

was so wrapped up in

22:30

his identity as a police officer that

22:32

he got wind that

22:34

he was about to be involved

22:36

in an IA , an internal affairs investigation

22:38

, and , right , wrong or indifferent

22:41

whatever the outcome would have

22:43

been , I think , knowing him as

22:45

well as I did , the

22:48

thought of him potentially

22:50

losing his job and or his reputation

22:53

via

22:55

this IA because this was all

22:57

that he had , this was all that he was , was too much

22:59

. And so , on the shift

23:02

that I think he thought was his last shift

23:04

before he went out on admin leave , he

23:07

made the very permanent decision

23:09

to die by suicide

23:11

just outside of his patrol car on

23:13

his shift . And so , again

23:15

, this identity piece can really have

23:18

really negative

23:20

, unfortunate end

23:22

results if we're not careful with

23:25

it .

23:26

And I don't think we understand what that

23:28

does . I mean , I know being at a commander

23:30

, you know I would . I would call an officer as they call

23:33

me back , but I never recognized that they'd literally

23:35

freaked out because of who . I was right

23:37

, Instead of me telling them and explaining to them that it's not

23:39

a big deal . This is what it's about . I took

23:41

it for granted that they wouldn't jump to conclusions , and

23:44

it's the same with internal affairs . You know , I've

23:46

known internal affairs guys or gals that would purposely

23:48

wait till Friday afternoon to call somebody and say , hey

23:50

, you're under investigation , have a good weekend . I mean just

23:52

stuff like this . Right , Like we need to understand

23:54

that identity and what

23:56

these things do to affect people , and just

23:58

. I'm not . I'm not saying we avoid accountability

24:01

. What I'm saying is we need to understand the stress that

24:03

that puts people under , that both have done something

24:05

and didn't do something . I know officers that

24:07

quit departments because they

24:09

were investigating , did nothing wrong , but it was just the

24:11

stress of the investigation , and

24:14

so I think there's so many things that we

24:16

can just do that are simple to understand

24:18

this and to change our behavior . And

24:21

is there anything in particular that you could recommend

24:23

just along these lines of where leaders can ease

24:25

the burden of some of these officers .

24:28

Stephanie , yeah , it's a great question . I

24:30

feel like you and I could probably have a whole podcast

24:32

episode on IA specifically

24:35

, but I think

24:37

you know that is one

24:39

thing that I hope to change . But , honest

24:41

with you is sort of the standard practice

24:44

of how we operate with IAs . Just

24:46

, you know , from a law enforcement standpoint

24:48

in general . But one thing that

24:50

I saw with a few departments on the East Coast

24:53

that I found and

24:55

research confirms is especially

24:58

helpful , is that when an officer

25:00

is in an IA or about to be in an IA

25:02

, they have partnered

25:04

with chaplains in their area

25:06

or outside

25:09

law enforcement professionals from

25:11

other departments and they assign

25:13

a specific person to sort

25:15

of be the officer

25:18

under the IA's sort of check-in partner

25:20

, and so they are assigned someone

25:23

to check in with that person

25:26

and just see how they're doing and you know

25:28

how this difficult road is

25:30

going and sort of guide them

25:32

through this really stressful process . And so I

25:35

think that if we can

25:37

sort of minimize , if not prevent

25:39

, the isolation aspect that many

25:42

of us feel in an IA , whether

25:44

we did anything right or wrong right , a lot of

25:46

IAs are , just to be quite frank , bullshit

25:49

, but the stress of it isn't , and

25:52

so if we can find ways to

25:54

minimize the isolation

25:56

feeling , either real or perceived , we

25:58

will be doing our people so

26:01

much justice for

26:04

them in the long run .

26:05

And I want to sort of explain to folks that may not be familiar

26:07

with this process of what is generically

26:10

generally what is occurring . I've

26:13

both seen it personally and experienced

26:15

some of it , so I

26:17

can investigate whoever they want for whatever

26:19

complaint they want . There's really a lot of times there

26:21

is no investigation before a complaint and

26:23

investigation , right . So some citizen

26:25

says something and they could launch a complaint and

26:27

they could say some sinister things

26:30

that aren't right . So an officer is literally

26:32

just notified either by a phone call or

26:34

official memo . You're under investigation

26:37

and it's vague . They'll give some policy

26:39

violation , right , but they generally will be . They

26:41

won't even tell them anything specific and then they'll

26:43

schedule an interview . It's not in common for

26:45

them have to reschedule interview because I

26:47

investigated when on vacation or your lawyer cannot

26:49

connect with the investigators . So , that takes time

26:52

. Then they interview you and

26:55

in an administrative interview law enforcement they

26:57

can open up everything like they

26:59

can start talking about the complaint , but then they can ask you

27:02

about , for the most part , anything they want , dependent

27:04

on the rules in that state

27:06

. And then every officer in America knows that if

27:08

you get caught lying you're going to get fired immediately

27:10

. Well , sometimes you're just telling you things the best

27:12

of your memory , right , and they couldn't . So there's a lot

27:14

of stress there . But then what also

27:16

happens and I think people would expect that stress

27:18

definitely , but here's the stress that I've I've

27:21

seen impact people the most , the people

27:23

that were your friends or your coworkers

27:25

or your bosses , just because

27:28

a complaint got filed , regardless if

27:30

they know anything about it , they start

27:32

talking and then they they stop

27:34

talking to you and then the rumor mill

27:36

starts and next thing , you know this thing that you did nothing

27:38

wrong in , you're somehow some

27:40

sort of criminal , and that happens more often

27:43

than people would even know

27:45

. And the stress that surrounds that

27:47

, whether you did anything or not because oftentimes

27:50

, like you said , this is BS , the

27:52

vast majority is because we

27:54

will take a complaint from anybody and everybody , no

27:56

matter what it said and put the

27:58

officers through the ringers , which is oftentimes why the

28:00

false complaints come in anyway . And

28:03

the stress of this I've I've

28:05

been through it , my friends have been through it it's

28:07

enormous and it's hard for people to understand

28:09

what that stress is because of

28:11

sort of what that mantra

28:13

of internal affairs is about . So we need

28:15

internal affairs , we need accountability , we need to

28:17

investigate complaints , but we certainly

28:19

need to consider what it's doing for

28:22

the wellness of our law enforcement professionals .

28:24

Absolutely . And some departments

28:26

here in California , where I

28:28

live , they will even take it a step

28:31

further and explicitly

28:33

say hey , you are in an IA

28:35

, you are not to talk to anybody that

28:37

is currently employed with this department , even if

28:39

you ask about the weather . You

28:41

cannot talk to them about anything for any reason

28:43

until this IA is resolved , which

28:45

is , you know , can take upwards of a year , if not

28:48

more sometimes . And

28:50

some departments even go a

28:52

step further and say and you have

28:54

to check in every single day , you need to

28:56

call the watch commander , you need to call dispatch

28:58

and every day check in and let

29:00

them know where you're at if you've left

29:02

the county . And it's almost like you're on parole

29:05

, like why do I need to check

29:07

in ? I can't leave the county , I can't go travel

29:09

with my family because of some BS accusation

29:12

that you're going to find is false . But I

29:14

have to wait 12 , 13 , 14 months sometimes

29:16

for you to sort of exonerate

29:18

me . Yeah , the stress we are

29:20

absolutely doing our people a huge

29:23

disservice , the way that we operate IAs and

29:25

that absolutely contributes , can

29:27

, has and does contribute to work aside , yeah

29:31

, it's really horrific , and I've

29:33

seen you name the horrific things done

29:35

to people and people that have done nothing

29:37

wrong generally .

29:38

And even if people did do something

29:41

wrong we live in such a human error environment

29:43

with just the performance

29:45

we have to do in a split second decision we still shouldn't treat

29:47

people horribly . I mean , I've seen police officers treated

29:50

way worse than a homicide

29:52

suspect completely worse and

29:54

so we're very concerned about the rights of our civilians

29:56

and we ought to be but oftentimes

29:58

we don't put that same concern

30:01

to our own employees and that's really a detriment

30:03

because , stephanie , this , this , an

30:06

employee that comes out of the other side of a stress like

30:08

this . They're never the same , are they .

30:10

No , they're not . And on

30:13

the on the sort of end side

30:16

of things as we're talking about IAs and really any

30:18

sort of organizational or occupational stressors

30:20

and traumas to include IAs . But that

30:22

is why it is so important to have

30:24

healthy coping skills in place

30:26

for when this inevitably does

30:29

happen . And so it's

30:31

not enough for us to recognize hey , you're

30:33

probably going to go through an IA , it's probably

30:36

going to suck , your life is probably going

30:38

to be hell for the next year , but what

30:40

are we going to do about it ? And so in

30:42

the book , I wanted to not only sort of educate

30:45

people on certain things and concepts

30:47

, but give them tools and things

30:50

that they could actually implement , where

30:52

they could feel like they're bettering themselves . And

30:54

so , when it comes to healthy coping

30:56

skills and wellness and cultivating

30:58

that , that is why that is so important . You

31:00

know , wellness isn't just some like woo-woo thing

31:02

that the hippies do these days

31:04

Like this is how we survive

31:07

and thrive . This occupation

31:09

and I say so often , especially

31:11

when I teach the newer officers , that

31:15

if you do not

31:17

have healthy coping skills in place

31:19

, you as a human , all

31:21

of us , will resort

31:23

to impulsive , pleasure-seeking

31:26

behaviors as a way to cope , like

31:29

alcohol , substance use

31:31

, maybe other addictions to things like porn

31:33

, sex affairs , right , bad

31:35

money moves that feel good today but really

31:37

screw us up in the long run , like we

31:40

resort to these impulsive pleasure-seeking

31:43

behaviors because we

31:45

don't know what else to do and how

31:47

else to cope . And so really cultivating

31:50

and finding ways to healthily get

31:52

through this career is essential .

31:55

Stephanie , I can't thank you enough . Incredible

31:57

stuff , incredible book Folks . Go buy

32:00

the book . Work aside , it will be in your library

32:02

forever . It's that good of a book

32:04

. You'll keep going back to it . Stephanie

32:07

, I can't thank you enough for being on the show and

32:09

for everything that you've done .

32:11

Thank you so much . It's been a pleasure .

32:13

And if you've been listening , thank you . And just remember

32:15

, lead on and stay courageous .

32:19

Thank you for listening to Courageous Leadership with

32:22

Travis Yates . We invite you

32:24

to join other courageous leaders at www

32:26

. TravisYates . org .