0:00

The views and opinions expressed in this

0:03

podcast are simply that opinions

0:05

all are presumed innocent until proven otherwise

0:07

in a court of law. Sensitive

0:10

topics are discussed. Discretion

0:12

is advised. What

0:17

motivates a mass killer? I'm

0:20

Vinnie Politan and on this week's

0:22

Court TV podcast, we're diving deeper

0:24

into this question with an audio

0:26

edition of Rampage Killers, a

0:28

Court TV special. This

0:30

original documentary explores why our understanding

0:32

of the psyche of a rampage

0:34

killer is vital in

0:37

preventing the next mass murder

0:39

via interviews with psychologists, investigators,

0:42

survivors, and a

0:44

convicted mass shooter. Have

0:47

a listen. This is

0:49

the Court TV Podcast with

0:51

Vinnie Politan. Inside

1:02

the mind of a rampage killer. My

1:05

name is Nick and I'm going to be the next school

1:07

shooter of 2018. Do you

1:09

think you're insane, Mr. Wallace? No. I

1:12

was to kill Hitler and six

1:15

of the architects of the Holocaust.

1:17

What motivates them to kill? Really,

1:20

the search for motive is often very fruitless.

1:22

Who in their right mind would do this?

1:24

There's no one way to say

1:26

this person is or this person isn't going

1:28

to become a mass shooter. A

1:31

survivor. I've

1:35

said to myself, okay, God, we don't

1:37

talk much, but here we are. I want

1:39

to see my babies again. And

1:41

a killer behind bars. You

1:44

would have kept going. It's likely I would,

1:46

because I had the means to. Hello

2:00

911. We're in Las Vegas. Somebody's

2:02

shooting at the real 91,000 shots. I have no idea what's happening. We're just

2:04

here at the gunshots. You can hear. Okay,

2:06

just face machine guns. I need an ambulance. I have a

2:27

friend. We need to evacuate. You guys

2:29

might be east side of the stage. Man, do you see anyone?

2:31

E-back as many ambulatory as you can. Okay, stay back. All right,

2:33

let's go. Go. All

2:36

right, we got active shooter over here at,

2:38

um, see

2:58

the route 91. See mobile flashes in the

3:00

middle of Mandalay Bay on the

3:02

north side. We're 59. It's

3:04

coming from White Beach. M-V-A-C-C-S-1 all

3:07

the way down to the windwall.

3:11

So what is the evidence of the emergency?

3:13

It's my charge reference for shooting at Mandalay

3:15

Bay. Yes, ma'am. We have multiple,

3:17

just said right under there's multiple casualties.

3:19

So ADT? I'm

3:25

Autumn Bignami, and I am a survivor from

3:27

the Route 91 concert in Las Vegas. I

3:30

was shot in the face. Entrance

3:33

wind was here. Exit wind was here. My birthday's

3:36

in September. My husband's birthday is in October. So that festival

3:38

right at the end of September, beginning of October,

3:40

was perfect for us. It fit for both

3:43

of our birthdays, so it became our weekend

3:46

gateway. Concert itself was awesome. The

3:48

festival was very well done. We had a great

3:50

time. Jason Albene was

3:52

actually the one. He's actually my husband's favorite, and

3:54

so we were super excited to see him. We're

4:01

just sort of watching and dancing. He's

4:03

in the middle of the song and we hear

4:06

these little lights pop, pop, pop. And

4:14

I remember thinking some drunk idiot has

4:17

fireworks. I can arrange fire crackers to

4:19

a concert. And

4:30

it was on that second that I was hit.

4:33

I was shot in the face. I

4:35

remember just hitting the ground. Stand

4:39

by. Down,

4:41

down, down. There's

4:43

rounds coming. There's rounds taking. We

4:47

hid behind a little barricade and at this

4:49

point is when he started actually doing the

4:51

rapid fire. People realized what was

4:53

going on. And

5:03

we were watching and I got hit in

5:05

the back and I fell forward. I

5:17

remember seeing their red and blue lights. So

5:19

to write the first responders for stays with

5:21

the firemen, paramedics for stays. So

5:23

the trucks slowed down. And

5:26

they were able to get me loaded into

5:28

an ambulance. About 22

5:30

minutes basically that entire process

5:32

to get from being a social distancing

5:34

officer. Seeing

5:48

around was something as

5:50

an episode of mass. It was

5:53

just people everywhere, bodies everywhere, chaos

5:55

everywhere. Thank

5:59

you. My husband

6:01

was like, we're not going to die today. We're not

6:03

going to die today. I'm Aaron Rouse. I

6:07

was the special agent in charge for the Las Vegas division

6:09

of the FBI. We hope, very

6:12

much so, to be able to provide concrete

6:14

information to the public about why this

6:16

happened, because that's what's on everyone's mind.

6:19

The shooter checked into the Mandalay Bay

6:21

on the 25th of September. The shooting

6:24

took place on the 1st of October. Jason

6:31

Aldean was on the stage

6:33

performing. He was the final

6:35

act of the night. To close the concert

6:37

down, at about 10.05

6:39

p.m., shots started

6:41

to fire from the Mandalay Bay onto

6:44

the venue. No

6:52

shots would continue until about 10.16 p.m. In

6:56

the aftermath of that, a total of

6:58

60 people ultimately died, and

7:00

more than 850 were wounded. Emotional

7:03

and psychological scars for just

7:06

about everybody there. It's incalculable.

7:10

Steven Paddock is a man who spent

7:13

decades acquiring weapons and ammo. He

7:15

meticulously planned on the worst

7:17

domestic attack in United States history.

7:21

In 1120, the first breach was set off, and officers

7:23

entered the suspects' room. They

7:28

observed the suspect down on the ground, and also saw

7:30

a second door that could not be accessed from

7:33

their position. Which is

7:35

sweet. And we have, you

7:37

have a main area of the suite, which is a living

7:39

room, kitchen,

7:42

dinette area. And then on opposite ends

7:44

of that is two bedrooms. At

7:50

1120, the second breach was set off, allowing officers to access

7:52

the second

8:00

room. It's

8:04

troublesome that this individual was

8:06

able to move this amount of gear

8:08

into a hotel room. It's troublesome for

8:10

the amount of stuff he had at

8:12

both residents. So there's

8:15

people that know this individual. There's people

8:17

that can help us understand this individual.

8:21

Who was Steven Paddock? A

8:23

person that had a lot of stressors in

8:27

his life. His father was

8:29

a former FBI top-10 fugitive and

8:31

I think that growing

8:33

up in a household that he

8:35

did with the type of stressors

8:37

that he did have that that did

8:40

play a part in wanting to attain

8:43

a certain amount of infamy. And

8:45

so therefore he was going to go

8:47

out on his terms which

8:50

involved killing these people and taking his

8:52

own life. The

8:55

Las Vegas shooter was

8:57

kind of an enigma. He did not leave

8:59

us a manifesto which would let us know

9:01

what his motivations were. But I think that

9:04

may be part of the game he was

9:06

playing because he knew we'd all be wondering.

9:08

For the Vegas shooter it is. It's a

9:10

little bit unclear what that final pathway was,

9:13

what made him get to the point of

9:15

thinking I'm not just gonna kill myself I'm

9:17

gonna take as many people as I can with

9:19

me. A mass shooting is intended to

9:22

be a final act. You don't get away

9:24

with a mass shooting. The Las Vegas shooting

9:26

appears almost to be experiential.

9:28

The shooter is perpetrating

9:31

that crime for the experience

9:33

of perpetrating that crime. There

9:36

were certainly things going on in that person's

9:38

life that would make

9:40

you believe that this was a

9:42

way of going out with a bang.

9:45

So the fact that there was never really a

9:47

why was difficult I think

9:49

at first because I think we

9:52

craved the why in our brain. We have

9:54

to know why because otherwise what was the

9:56

point. When the incident happened I did kindergarten

9:59

a third-grader and in seventh grade. In my

10:01

little kindergarten. She made a comment to me

10:03

recently that she doesn't remember what I sounded like.

10:06

Hi! Before,

10:14

it's hard. You're never recovered,

10:17

it's all just recovery, but. Coming

10:22

up, inside the mind of a

10:24

school rampage killer. My name

10:26

is Nick, and I'm gonna be a next school shooter for

10:28

up to 2018. What

10:31

red flags were missed, and what can

10:33

be done to prevent the next tragedy? I'm

10:37

sorry, I'm sorry. Yes,

10:40

I love you too. And

10:59

then he came in,

11:01

the light started blowing up,

11:03

and you're shooting everyone in the cafeteria,

11:07

and then you get here, I'm laughing and running upstairs. You

11:09

just shouldn't be able to put your child in

11:11

a classroom at

11:14

the beginning of the day and never see them again because

11:16

someone walked into that building with a gun and

11:19

killed them. I mean, it was just a very, very, very

11:21

hard time. I

11:24

mean, I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to do that. I

11:28

mean, it was very scary, but like I was trying, like

11:30

we were trying not to panic. I was

11:33

basically in the fetal position shaking because I

11:35

was scared. First responders to walk in, it's

11:37

very devastating. As you kind of

11:39

come down, as the scene kind of progresses,

11:41

we're gonna have some firefighters, some first responders

11:44

are gonna be affected. This

11:46

is enough. This

11:48

is enough. No one

11:50

else needs to go through this. We

11:52

never needed to go through this, but we are. If

11:55

I say Parkland, Columbine, right,

11:58

Sandy Hook. These

12:01

are not nouns anymore. They become verbs. This

12:04

is a major, major problem, and

12:06

it's taking a massive toll on

12:09

the American people. There have

12:11

been hundreds of school shootings in the U.S.

12:13

in the past two decades, and they keep

12:16

happening. And the question is, how did we

12:18

get here? But one thing we know is

12:20

everything changed after Columbine. That was

12:22

the one that was really the touchstone for

12:25

all the mass killers that would come after that.

12:28

And that really changed the

12:30

way we move through the world and

12:32

the sense of safety we had about

12:34

our kids in school. We

12:36

see these younger shooters. We see this

12:38

slow build towards violence, often

12:42

depressed, suicidal. And

12:45

then that sort of self-hate turns

12:47

outward. School shooters are a subset

12:49

of the public mass killers. They're

12:52

usually insiders. They have either attended

12:54

the school or they do attend

12:56

the school now. Sometimes they've been

12:58

expelled or gotten in trouble

13:00

in school. And they

13:03

don't always target specific people when

13:05

they go back. In fact, usually

13:07

they don't. Very few school shooters

13:09

make it out alive. That wasn't

13:11

the case at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High

13:13

School, when 14 students and three staff

13:15

members were murdered on Valentine's Day in

13:17

2018. When

13:23

you see me on the news, we all know who

13:25

I am. You're

13:30

up, going to the parkland

13:34

is a case study

13:36

in missed opportunities for

13:39

intervention. There were so

13:41

many red flags for years. And

13:44

it just seemed like it was system

13:47

failure after system failure after

13:49

system failure. The Parkland school

13:51

shooter was raising red flags since he

13:53

was in elementary school. He

13:55

caught the attention of counselors, teachers, and

13:57

even neighbors because of his erratic behavior.

14:00

That continued throughout his life. You

14:02

have someone posting online

14:04

and telling friends, I am going to

14:06

be a school shooter. Reports were

14:09

made to the FBI and the ball was

14:11

dropped. Multiple police reports from

14:13

the kid's mother

14:16

over the years about his

14:18

out-of-control behavior. People

14:20

only ever had small pieces of the

14:23

puzzle, and they

14:25

weren't able to put it all together to see the

14:27

bigger picture. So law enforcement

14:29

knew something, family knew

14:31

something, the school

14:33

knew something, social

14:35

media knew something. He

14:38

mutilated animals from a young age,

14:40

he took dead animals to school, and

14:43

of course his behavior was

14:46

so inappropriate, he had

14:48

a cascade of social failures. So

14:57

here's the plan, I'm going to go take

14:59

Uber in the afternoon before 2.40. From

15:02

there I'll go into the school

15:05

campus, walk up the stairs, load

15:09

my bags, and get my

15:11

AR and shoot people down

15:13

at the main

15:16

courtyard. Await,

15:19

and people will die. All

15:22

the kids in school will then

15:25

fear and hide. From

15:27

the wrath of my power they will know who I

15:29

am. I am

15:31

nothing, I am no one. My

15:34

life is nothing and meaningless. Everything

15:37

that I hold dear I let go beyond your

15:39

half. Every

15:41

day I see the world ending another day. I

15:46

live a long life, living seclusion

15:48

and solitude. I

15:51

hate everyone and everything, with the power of

15:53

my AR you will all know who I am. I

15:57

had enough Of being told what to do and

15:59

when to do. Adama.

16:06

Lived here all the dumb ass

16:08

are. All stupid and brainwashed

16:10

by these political government. Programs.

16:15

To see you all know

16:17

my name is. Those

16:25

decisions moment where they let his brother

16:27

into the room. The

16:31

most I know. He

16:37

thought he knew he would be

16:39

the most. Sir.

16:47

It's this incredibly emotional see. This is

16:49

not what you would ever picture as

16:51

somebody who just perpetrated one of. The

16:53

worst school mass shootings in

16:55

history for more money was

16:57

uses this is don't even

16:59

though. I

17:02

know you you saw so not know that

17:04

evolved by care of us. Army

17:08

with from Ohio where I love

17:10

you on Mars I know so

17:13

you can sign right now low.

17:16

Energy density. People

17:19

have any of them. crazy. And

17:23

on how to other think thank

17:26

you My brother has now I

17:28

once our city. He

17:34

can I. Tell

17:38

them. More

17:40

know what? Annoys

17:50

you want? not

17:58

that that excuses what he or

18:00

says he's not responsible for what he did, but

18:02

I think we have this image of what these

18:04

monsters look like. I am very sorry for what

18:06

I did, and I have to live with it every day. And

18:09

if I were to get a second chance, I would do everything in my

18:11

power to try to help others. And I

18:13

am doing this for you, and I do not care if you do

18:16

not believe me. And I love you,

18:18

and I know you don't believe me, but

18:20

I have to live with this every day, and

18:23

it brings me nightmares, and I can't live with myself

18:25

sometimes. This is a kid, right? This is

18:27

just a kid. How did he get here? He

18:30

was not psychotic. He was not delusional.

18:33

He was not hallucinating, but

18:35

he definitely had psychopathic

18:37

tendencies. If

18:41

we ever have a case where we can look

18:43

and say, what can we do different?

18:46

Parkland is the case where we really need

18:49

to take that apart piece by piece,

18:52

and say, this is one that

18:54

was telegraphed here. This

19:00

is the reception area. The

19:03

seating area to the left of reception is dust, a black

19:05

duffel bag on the couch. When

19:08

I see a small hallway, see a weapon on

19:10

the floor. This

19:12

hallway is known as the Human Resources Department.

19:16

Cheryl Troy's office was located in this hallway.

19:20

When I see a glass brick wall, separates

19:23

the reception area from the conference room. When

19:26

we look down, we see the body of Cheryl

19:28

Troy located behind the receptionist desk. In

19:32

the distance, we see the body of Janice Hegarty. I'm

19:36

Stephen Doherty. I'm the retired chief

19:38

of police in Wakefield, Massachusetts. People

19:40

left that building. It's

19:42

like a snapshot in time. I

19:44

was the chief when the Edgewater

19:47

technology shootings occurred in December

19:49

of 2000. I

19:51

looked at one desk. A woman

19:53

was writing a personal check. It's

19:55

still on her desk. It remains there,

19:58

endorsed but unsigned. Several individuals

20:00

had barricaded themselves in an office.

20:03

He reloaded the weapon several times. 37

20:07

rounds fired from the semi-automatic

20:09

rifle and numerous shotgun

20:11

shells. Mr. McDermott blew the door

20:14

off and the door handled with

20:16

the shotgun. He then went

20:18

inside and he shot one individual

20:20

three times in the chest. The

20:26

call came in at 11.26 in the morning on December 26.

20:31

Saw people screaming out of the

20:33

building, running. I mean, running like

20:36

it was they were in fear and they

20:38

were. Seven people

20:40

were killed at Edgewater Technology

20:42

in Wakefield, Massachusetts. The shooter

20:45

was an employee, a

20:47

data programmer named Michael McDermott.

20:51

If you see any pictures of Grizzly

20:54

Adams, that's

20:56

pretty much what he looked like. A huge

20:58

man, full facial

21:01

hair, bushy on top

21:03

all the way down here. I would say

21:05

he was a scary looking guy. I

21:08

was there in the courtroom for Court TV. And

21:11

I remember this case very well because

21:13

not only was McDermott such an odd

21:16

looking character, he was really

21:18

intelligent. He worked

21:20

as an engineer on a nuclear submarine

21:23

and worked at the main Yankee

21:25

nuclear power plant in New England.

21:29

You're in a nuclear submarine. That's correct. Worked

21:32

in the nuclear reactor or in

21:34

the engine room? In the engine room. This is a

21:37

smart man. He's an engineer. He

21:39

worked for the US Navy. He was

21:41

assigned to atomic submarines. After

21:44

you get out of the Navy, you went

21:46

directly to main Yankee? The

21:49

same area. This is

21:51

not jobs you get on Indeed. These

21:54

are jobs that come from a lifetime

21:56

of growing experience. Did you

21:58

earn any patents or? award

22:00

any patents while you were at Durosso.

22:02

Yes. And what were those patents for?

22:07

I invented a device for safety

22:09

of lithium batteries. Michael

22:11

McDermott also seemed mentally ill. He

22:15

attempted suicide twice and

22:17

was hospitalized for depression,

22:19

hallucinations, and hearing voices.

22:23

The thing with Michael McDermott that is

22:25

relevant is that

22:27

he had a documented 20-year history

22:29

with medical records of schizophrenia.

22:32

Two weeks before the shooting, he was in

22:35

a real downward spiral. His car was about

22:37

to be repossessed. Then he

22:39

was called into the HR department in

22:41

Edgewater and told that the IRS was

22:44

going to be garnishing his wages. He

22:47

was very, very upset at

22:49

having his wages garnished, and

22:52

he was told by HR, we're going

22:54

to wait until after the holidays in

22:56

order to enforce this edict. On

22:59

Christmas Day, after spending the day with

23:01

his family, he went to the office

23:03

and planted the guns. All

23:06

of the ammunition and stuff was

23:08

piled up by him for

23:11

his arrival on December 26. Now's

23:14

the day after Christmas, and McDermott shows

23:16

up at work, and everyone that was

23:18

there says he was acting normal. He

23:21

came to work interfaced with employees, did

23:23

whatever it is he does. Then about

23:25

11, 15 or so in the morning,

23:28

he went back to his office, took

23:30

out the 12-gauge shotgun and the assault

23:32

rifle, as well as a .32 caliber

23:35

handgun, which was found in his pocket

23:37

when we arrested him. All

23:40

seven people McDermott shot that day

23:42

died. And

23:44

unlike most workplace shootings where

23:46

it seems random, in

23:49

this case, it seems very

23:51

targeted. We

23:54

began searching the building, and Right

23:56

nearby, the two dead bodies was a

23:58

very large individual. and the only thing

24:01

I remember him saying is a don't

24:03

speak German. I

24:05

don't speak German. What does that

24:07

mean? And it wasn't

24:10

until two and a half years

24:12

later that Michael Mcdermott told says

24:14

side of the stores in boy

24:17

what a store. As the December

24:19

fourteen of year two thousand be

24:21

working it is what is. It

24:23

was similar there are very long

24:26

ago. Who the worst

24:28

and best am? I was like. I

24:31

just another form that term. The

24:35

iris astonishing my wages.

24:38

There was. A terrible Dyson.

24:41

When haven't. I

24:45

went. Afterwards I went back to

24:47

my cubicle meltdown and prayed for

24:49

health would have. Michael

24:53

the Archangel came and lifted

24:55

and to with a celestial

24:58

plane. You

25:00

could hear up soon drop

25:02

in that courtroom. When mixed

25:04

Dartmouth was talking about communicating

25:06

with St. Michael the Archangel,

25:09

what happened. He

25:12

told me. The

25:14

got had a plan for me. I. Said.

25:18

Some things to I'm like would I

25:20

don't believe in God which his family

25:22

stupid in front of an angel. Factor.

25:27

Said it was okay. God believed in me.

25:32

He. Said

25:34

got had plan for me. If

25:36

people have come from religious

25:39

families are fake attended church

25:41

has children. It's very common

25:43

to have on the delusions

25:46

and hallucinations be very centered

25:48

around angels the voice of

25:51

god satan, demons. Seared.

25:55

Said that. i couldn't

25:57

with god's help i could get a soul that

25:59

i I did not

26:01

feel worthy. I had accumulated a

26:03

lifetime of sins. I

26:06

didn't feel worthy of receiving a soul. I

26:09

think in Michael McDermott's case,

26:11

it's interesting that he sort

26:14

of blended the delusional material

26:16

with the emotions that he

26:18

had that were genuine about,

26:20

I'm angry with this company and

26:22

I'm angry with the HR department. What

26:25

was the solution? I've

26:27

always assumed that sins were more heavily

26:29

weighed than good acts. I suggested I

26:31

would have to save millions of lives just

26:34

to get back to zero to start to get a soul.

26:37

And he suggested that was possible. If

26:39

I could do something like go back

26:41

in time and prevent the

26:43

Holocaust, I would save tens of millions

26:45

of lives. Prevent the Holocaust? Yes. He

26:49

was hearing, alleged to be hearing voices

26:51

that he had to go kill Hitler's lieutenants,

26:54

which were represented in his mind

26:56

by the Human Resources Department. So

26:59

what happened there? He told me this was

27:01

God's plan. I would

27:04

be transported back in time 60 years to the year

27:06

1940 to a bunker

27:09

in Berlin. And

27:11

I was to kill Hitler

27:13

and six of

27:15

the architects, Nazis, of

27:18

the Holocaust. McDermott

27:20

claimed he was instructed to kill

27:22

six lieutenants and Hitler, but the

27:25

jury didn't buy it. He

27:27

was convicted and when he was sentenced,

27:30

the gallery broke out into applause as

27:32

he was led out of that court.

27:42

Help! Help! Help

27:47

me! for

28:00

this for 25 year. No. Still

28:02

struggling with a devastating reality. Bet

28:04

he shot five people. I

28:07

don't think the West Coast has a rampage killer. Hey,

28:30

my name is Jeffrey Wade Wallace Brett. What

28:32

happened to that? What

28:34

happened to that? What happened to

28:37

that son? I don't know what he was

28:39

saying. I'm

29:00

Frank Labriola. I'm

29:03

a survivor from the

29:05

Key West shooting, 1997, at the Rum

29:10

Runners Bar in the hideaway.

29:20

Jeffrey came into a bar

29:23

that I was running and proceeded

29:25

to kill one person and shoot four others.

29:28

I was shot three

29:30

times, spent over 30 days

29:32

in the hospital, and

29:34

took multiple years to recover. Jeffrey

29:37

Wallace was a part-time bouncer at a

29:39

bar in Key West Florida by the name of Rum

29:41

Runners. On April 7, 1997, he was off duty. He

29:46

walked into the bar dressed in a suit

29:48

that he had purchased a year before just

29:50

for this occasion, a pair of brand new

29:52

shoes, and he was armed with

29:55

a semi-automatic handgun. His intent when he walked

29:57

into that bar was to kill as many

29:59

people as possible. The could then I

30:01

was a regular. Nice my bar back

30:03

Josh was there he was with me

30:05

or member Jeffery summon up to the

30:07

bar, my room or his shots and

30:10

complain to me that I watered down

30:12

with or anything unusual status he to

30:14

my says how it appeared as soon

30:16

as I watered down something wrong with

30:19

him and with love or money pick

30:21

what did you think. They

30:23

dragging me and I don't find him

30:26

as his id ah I'm not a

30:28

handsome my mind how morning as and

30:30

items he had to leave and that

30:32

was my first interaction I ever had

30:34

with them. And he turns

30:37

mean faces. I knew I didn't like

30:39

you didn't I Just medicine. Man.

30:43

Knows and moment at midnight maybe

30:45

ten after Josh is gone the

30:47

our I came back I said

30:49

josh are needed Crazy comes up

30:51

is I go to your arms

30:53

which means that to go run

30:55

the bars and after that ah

30:58

five minutes later is when I

31:00

started Aaron What Everybody's always firecrackers

31:02

Bad sounded like gunshots. Fall

31:05

to me as seems like minutes later. Everything

31:08

went down, including their

31:10

suffering. Wallace shot five

31:13

people. Killing Thirty two year old

31:15

Michael Sumner, one of the run runners

31:17

managers and the only reason that he

31:19

stopped shooting was an off duty bouncer

31:21

who was behind him was able to

31:23

tackle. They. Are already

31:26

had to pick Frankie out from behind the

31:28

bar over the bar be as riley way

31:30

you can get him to have a victim

31:32

up. And then they had a we lose

31:34

is a bar So I saw him going

31:36

out on a stretcher and got into E

31:38

R. And they have one

31:40

of the boats out of my chest

31:42

and it weighed in on the put in

31:44

that little silver pan and I will remember

31:47

that sound of that bullet. Shell

31:49

this? Go on? T C think. jeffrey

31:52

waltz admitted to everything but the

31:54

story said he told investigators and

31:56

would later tell jurors about why

31:58

he did it Do

32:03

you think you're insane, Stuall? No. Are you happy that

32:05

we're using the

32:07

defense of insanity?

32:27

No, I'm not. I'm just crediting everything I

32:29

say, everybody. They listen to what I say

32:31

to people that don't know, that

32:33

don't live here and know what's going on.

32:35

We'll discredit everything I said. Wallace's

32:37

story was that Rum Runners, the

32:40

bar was run by some Boston-based

32:42

mafia and that the employees were

32:44

engaged in prostitution and gambling and

32:46

drug smuggling. They were devil worshippers.

32:48

And they were trying to manipulate

32:50

him. So he had to

32:52

fight back. That's

32:55

all the crime that was going on there. I didn't like

32:57

it. They knew I didn't like it. And who was that?

33:00

Satanic called and key with. We're

33:04

tied to organized crime. I

33:06

was afraid of these people. I know I

33:08

was being followed. And they do it to intimidate me.

33:11

They told me they were going to destroy me. They had a feeling they

33:13

were going to kill me. They were driving me

33:15

to suicide. He came up

33:17

with some crazy, radical

33:20

ideas to help defend

33:24

his situation of what happened

33:26

by saying we were satanic

33:28

worshippers and devil worshipping was

33:30

going on. And, you

33:32

know, when you hear that, I just say

33:34

crazy. When

33:37

you say you had to confront them, what

33:39

did you mean? I

33:41

had to come back to Rum Runners. But

33:44

I was started and confront them. Were

33:49

you planning on killing them? No, I was not.

33:52

I Never. And

34:02

so he became paranoid and had

34:04

delusions and have the psychotic break

34:06

I think. he was very nice

34:09

person. And one point he

34:11

had a wife, two kids, and

34:13

was pursuing a master's degree when

34:15

mental illness started to creep into

34:18

his life. He ended up getting

34:20

divorced, was hospitalized on two separate

34:22

occasions, Now. Twenty five

34:24

years later. What does Jeffrey Wallace think

34:27

about what he did? We went to

34:29

visit him in prison to find out.

34:35

Federal ones mr me to just her

34:37

pressure to turn was just prefers dogs.

34:41

And program for this for twenty five years. Earlier

34:45

and Milan San Cisco for their

34:47

moments that new worth going through.

34:49

this a leading up where you

34:52

second guess yourself. Know.

34:56

As the time. I

34:59

was completely convinced and I began

35:01

do. Suspicious.

35:04

Of fame and everybody in time

35:06

and com or will come spirit

35:08

or explanation for I was going

35:10

through. It was

35:13

all irrational of oh imaginary

35:15

this is you and your suit

35:17

Walk away when you when you

35:20

look at that what he.

35:26

To spare. Hopelessness

35:28

Help refer. To

35:30

spare. Time

35:33

to assess. Jeffrey

35:35

Wallace wasn't holding on to those

35:37

same delusions that he had twenty

35:39

five years earlier when he committed

35:41

these crimes. And one other thing

35:44

that is very clear: his: if

35:46

that bouncer hadn't stopped him to

35:48

this day, he believes that many

35:50

more people would have.thankfully. When

35:53

the bouncers was behind me in

35:55

the dark and not to go

35:58

my hand and arm and. Put

36:00

an end to it. He would have kept going.

36:03

Slightly, I would go. They had the means

36:06

to. And

36:08

as seventeen rounds in the Glock

36:10

and to more police issued each

36:12

day magazines oh my belt and

36:15

overdue around the Hawthorne. So Nadella

36:17

for grab and then. We

36:19

talk about my she just having full things

36:21

in common early childhood trauma. Is

36:25

it really on results and it

36:28

lays the foundation for what comes

36:30

next? Mass shooters also reach. Us.

36:37

To a point where somebody no

36:40

longer cares if they live or

36:42

die. It's a way of expressing

36:44

your grievance with the world in

36:46

a really public statements. Thirdly,

36:50

These mash you to study. Other mass

36:53

shooters they are trying to search for

36:55

meaning in their lives. They try to

36:57

search for understanding of the way they

36:59

they feel about themselves. At

37:02

the same time, they might be searching

37:04

for meaning in the darkest corners the

37:07

internet's and getting radicalised in hate groups

37:09

in chat rooms and other places. And

37:12

then the full factor is that all these

37:14

individuals in the end have to have access

37:16

to firearms. Feel I

37:18

said term killer. This know because

37:20

I know. I don't

37:23

think that necessary. They start out

37:25

to be killers. They

37:27

don't totally understand the hand to be killed

37:30

for their Cnn. That as

37:32

a result for could have stopped. Some

37:35

really good intensive therapy.

37:39

For someone with get to know

37:41

me enough for the course of

37:43

cows. People

37:46

tried to help out,

37:49

see you even had

37:51

some hospitalizations to separate

37:54

times. Why didn't. It

37:57

work to change the.

38:00

the ultimate outcome. The

38:02

only thing I think practically

38:04

speaking that they could have done

38:07

was to somehow intercede in voluntary

38:09

commitment, some kind for a time,

38:12

some kind of treatment. And

38:15

I think that sometimes that's necessary.

38:18

Who is the person like

38:20

you that goes all the way? Would

38:22

be a person who just completely life,

38:24

his life is completely turned upside down.

38:28

The way he was able

38:30

to articulate that hopelessness and

38:33

despair, he recognized

38:35

as well intellectually, he knew that something was

38:37

going wrong. He knew he was in crisis,

38:40

but he couldn't take the next

38:42

step to do something about it.

38:45

You leave your chosen profession, leave

38:47

your career, your

38:49

marriage falls apart, you

38:53

start isolating yourself, you

38:56

are suspicious, anxious,

38:59

fearful. You

39:02

just can't see a way out. And

39:05

yet somehow the mass shooting is

39:08

the way out for these individuals. They feel

39:10

like that's the solution, that's the answer to

39:13

their problems. A mass killing

39:15

is always the end point to

39:17

a long pathway. We wanna intervene

39:19

as early on the pathway as

39:21

we can. We can certainly predict

39:23

that mass killings are going to

39:26

continue happening unless we start doing

39:28

something different. You need the individuals

39:30

who are willing to reach out,

39:33

you need the systems that are then functioning

39:36

within our institutions to ensure that

39:38

somebody can get the help and

39:40

treatment that they need. And

39:43

then you also need to ensure that those people

39:46

who are on the verge

39:48

of perpetrating a mass shooting aren't

39:50

then so easily able

39:53

to get access to a deadly weapon. Sadly,

39:57

because there are critical incidents being

39:59

reported across... across the country every day. It's

40:02

like it's ongoing. It's like

40:04

it hasn't really stopped. It pauses

40:06

for a while, and then for

40:08

some reasons, the violence escalates. As

40:10

a society, we have become numb to it, or,

40:12

you know, a school

40:14

student happens and we're shocked by

40:17

it, but we're not surprised by

40:19

it, and that's very disturbing. And

40:21

once you've experienced the actual violence

40:24

yourself, it changes how you

40:26

look at that forever. I don't know that

40:28

I'll ever be recovered. It's

40:30

not, there is no recovery for me. This

40:32

is, this is

40:34

still daily. For me, the ability as

40:36

a victim, someone who has been shot,

40:38

to hear someone say like, oh,

40:41

this happened, it really

40:43

does affect me on multiple levels. The

40:46

most recent shooting was so difficult.

40:50

I said, it's my mom heart, it's

40:52

my teacher heart, it's my victim heart.

40:54

At the end of the day, unfortunately,

40:57

there's no one

40:59

way to say this person is, or this

41:01

person isn't going to become a mass shooter.

41:04

We have to continue to work together. We

41:07

have to continue to have

41:09

conversations, difficult conversations about

41:12

addressing mental illness, about

41:15

addressing violence, to

41:18

ensure that we as communities and as a

41:20

nation can work together

41:22

to diffuse the next mass shooter before

41:26

they strike. There you

41:28

have it. If

41:36

you wanna see more Core TV originals, they're

41:38

available to stream for free on our website.

41:40

Just check the show notes for a link.

41:43

And to keep up with the biggest

41:45

current true crime stories, you can see

41:47

me every weeknight at 8 p.m. Eastern

41:49

on my show, Closing Arguments with Vinnie

41:51

Politan. Thank you so much

41:53

for downloading. And as always, please don't

41:56

forget to hug the kids. This

42:00

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42:03

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