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0:22

It's episode 345 of the Craft Beer

0:24

and Brewing Podcast, and for this week,

0:26

this week's episode, I'm in

0:29

Phoenix, Arizona. I've never been

0:31

to Arizona for the podcast yet, and I

0:33

was thinking about it late last year as

0:36

we went through our Best in Beer, and

0:38

we had two breweries here in Phoenix, Arizona

0:40

score incredibly well with our

0:43

blind judges and earned spots in our Best

0:45

Beers of 2023. One

0:47

of those was Arizona Wilderness

0:50

Jitterbug Perfume, which scored a

0:52

perfect 100 with our

0:54

judges, one of three or four. And

0:56

so that is where I am today,

0:58

talking with Brad Miles, head of production,

1:00

or head brewer, and Nick Polley, the

1:03

wood seller manager of Arizona Wilderness. Welcome

1:05

to the podcast, Brad. Thanks,

1:07

good to be here. And welcome back to the

1:09

podcast, Nick. Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm stoked.

1:11

A little bit of explanation, Nick was at Fair

1:14

Isle when we did that podcast. I think that

1:16

was, you know, either 2020 or 2021, that kind

1:18

of pandemic era where we

1:20

had a remote conversation. Anyway,

1:22

not a crazy surprise since we've all loved

1:24

your beers at Fair Isle, and it's great

1:26

to see that back here back,

1:29

this is your second turn back

1:31

at Arizona Wilderness, that now here

1:33

in the wood cellar also making

1:35

beautiful beers, expressive beers, flavorful beers

1:38

that are moving our

1:40

extremely judgmental judge.

1:42

Awesome, thank you. Because we're going to

1:44

talk about two things, you know, two

1:46

main topics on this episode. We're going

1:48

to talk about the wood cellar program

1:50

here, spontaneous beer, and then also using

1:52

these ingredients in such creative ways like

1:54

you did with Jodabrug perfume. We're

1:57

also going to keep that ingredient theme going on the

1:59

clean beer and talk about the

2:01

way that Arizona wilderness is using grain,

2:04

whether it's perennial grain like Kernza

2:06

or using Sonoran wheat, two

2:09

row barley grown here in Arizona,

2:12

and the way that Arizona wilderness

2:14

has been working with growers to

2:16

sustain agriculture in this very, very

2:18

dry climate, but to do it

2:20

also efficiently that uses resources in the right kind of

2:22

way. But it also hits the flavor goals for the

2:24

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2:27

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4:04

right, Brad, we've already heard Nick's story and

4:06

if anyone wants to go listen to that,

4:08

go back and listen to that old Fair

4:10

Isle episode, not to make light of it,

4:12

Nick, but we've already covered that history. Why

4:15

don't we talk about your history? It's

4:18

quite an impressive one, stint at Firestone

4:20

Walkers, doing R&D. It's

4:23

something. Yeah, we'll go back to the beginning. I

4:26

was always kind of interested in fermentation, but

4:29

I thought I had to get that business

4:31

degree. So I was in college

4:33

in Vegas for business,

4:36

worked in the casino industry for like four or five years and

4:38

the whole time I was home brewing and just

4:41

kind of got sick of it. I was

4:43

working for 10, so I went and

4:45

got a part-time job three days a week

4:47

at Refuge Brewing Company in Temecula. First

4:50

day in, I knew that was it.

4:52

That's what I had to do and I spent eight

4:54

hours cleaning kegs. So I just

4:57

kind of grinded, got the experience and

4:59

then told my wife, like,

5:01

hey, we- Refuge connected

5:03

to the SS Brewtech crew. Yeah, I

5:05

was the guinea pig on the SS

5:07

Brewtech systems. Yeah, that was interesting. But

5:11

yeah, and then wanted to go full-time

5:14

and just kind of started. My

5:17

journey to Firestone was pretty quick. Started

5:20

looking for full-time jobs, couldn't really find one.

5:23

Applied to Firestone on a Tuesday.

5:26

Got a call back on Wednesday. Had

5:28

a working interview on the next Monday and

5:30

then started the Monday after that. Then

5:34

I was there starting the seller, working my

5:36

way up to the brew house. Started filtering,

5:38

managed the yeast for a little while. My

5:40

last stint there, I was doing new

5:43

product development in R&D. I

5:47

was there for a total of eight years and now

5:49

I'm here. Arizona Wilderness, yeah. What brought you to Arizona?

5:53

A few things. I wanted

5:55

to kind of branch out a little bit. It

5:59

always worked. I did the small stand at

6:01

refuge but I wanted to be

6:03

more connected to the consumer

6:05

of the beer that I was producing

6:07

and I just

6:10

had never done it. I had never been

6:12

the head brewer somewhere or doing my own

6:14

recipes like so

6:17

I just wanted that experience doing that. I also

6:19

have a young family and we're kind of looking

6:21

to a little bit place a

6:23

little bit more affordable as well. Yeah and

6:26

well I know John and Pat from the Invitational

6:28

and the festival circuit and I saw that job

6:31

pop up and applied and then I

6:33

was here. The scale of

6:35

Arizona wilderness is a little bit different than the

6:37

scale of Arizona. Our yearly production

6:39

is like two of their big tanks. What

6:43

is the yearly production here? We're about 3000 between 3 and 3500

6:45

a year. It's

6:49

all made out of the brew pub here

6:51

in Gilbert Arizona. Yeah out of that little

6:53

15 barrel we're pumping out. For now. For

6:55

now yeah. We have a new production spot

6:58

that hopefully construction will

7:00

start here pretty soon. Tell

7:02

me a little bit about the broader Arizona

7:04

wilderness story. The vision behind the brewery and

7:06

then what was the impetus behind the brewery

7:08

and what are

7:13

some of the values that drive it today? Yeah

7:16

so I don't know too much

7:18

of how John and Pat started it but

7:21

I know what it is now and I think it's kind of changed

7:23

a lot since then. We're

7:25

trying to use beer to kind of

7:27

better the environment, educate people, create

7:30

community and local supply

7:33

chains within that community. Yeah

7:36

I think Nick could speak to it a little bit. He has

7:38

a little bit more experience here but. I do but no one

7:40

would put it I think better than John or Pat. Yeah. John

7:43

has a certain way of speaking about things from

7:45

the heart. It's awesome but yeah

7:48

so I know that John started home

7:50

brewing in his garage as kind of

7:52

like most of us do right and

7:54

would just kind of brew up these kind of wacky

7:57

brews that we still kind of do to this day. recipes

8:00

still in place that we brew

8:02

ten years later. So and

8:05

then he you know was kind of

8:07

always the business side of things more

8:09

so than the brewing side so he

8:11

found a professional brewer in Pat where

8:13

the other co-owner and

8:15

I don't know how it happened but

8:17

they they got the money and kind of found

8:19

this perfect little spot old broogers

8:21

bagels here in Gilbert and yeah

8:24

that's that's kind of where it all started and yeah I

8:26

want to correct you a little bit Jamie the those two

8:29

breweries that you were talking about are all

8:31

in Gilbert not Phoenix. Oh right yeah Gilbert.

8:33

Gilbert becoming its own little brewing community. Even

8:35

more crazy. Yeah. Okay okay you know it's

8:37

not Mesa, not Chandler or Gilbert. We're in

8:40

the greater Phoenix

8:46

metro area. Yeah yeah. You know it all

8:48

counts you know but but

8:50

it's also nice to see and we noticed that with our

8:53

best and beer this year strange

8:55

concentrations you know of places

8:57

like Central North Carolina you

9:00

know with I think there were five different

9:02

pairs of best and beers that came from

9:05

similar places. I don't know how to explain

9:07

that necessarily. I think some of it goes

9:10

back to you know if your

9:12

peers are paying attention to something then you also

9:14

start paying attention to something. Yeah. So you know

9:16

it's like JBF entries well you know

9:18

if your neighborhood across the you know the across

9:21

town is entering JBF and winning medals like you

9:23

kind of want to too right. I think that

9:25

some of that happens with us where someone's getting

9:27

you know beers scored highly in the magazine you

9:29

know you want to oh well we'll give it

9:32

our shot too and so maybe that's what drives

9:34

some of this I don't know but but

9:36

it's neat to see. Yeah. These little

9:38

clusters of cool brewing but I think

9:40

there's also something you know broader that

9:43

high quality competition. Oh yeah. Makes everyone

9:45

brew better beer and so when you

9:48

find these clusters it's not a surprise

9:50

you know that around Firestone Walker in

9:52

Central California you have all of these

9:55

amazing brewers making grape you have to

9:57

you can't survive unless you make grape

9:59

beer. Yeah and so yeah. Most of

10:01

us brewers are all beer fans at heart and

10:03

we're going to the place after work, down the

10:05

street and pasting. They're great beer and than. Taking.

10:08

Inspiration from that so and you wanna

10:10

and a friendly way just try to

10:12

make years little bit better in the

10:14

I suspect there's nothing wrong with that

10:16

and I see right and I think

10:18

about it may I was reading I

10:20

mentioned in one of my editor's note

10:22

the magazine this is beautiful of book

10:24

to they put together about Steve Jobs

10:26

and one are things that me as

10:28

it. Struck. Me now I'm

10:30

alongside Apple fanboys. Is Not Not

10:32

anything crazy? Yeah. But. What

10:35

he wanted things he said was

10:37

something into the effect of quality

10:39

when you focus on making some

10:41

equality express your love of humanity

10:43

that. He. That's not just

10:46

about competition. You make something beautiful for

10:48

the world because we love humanity. We

10:50

love this existence. The were operating together

10:52

and we care about that. the thing

10:54

they were all building to go. You

10:56

care about making a well and death.

10:58

You care about putting something out there.

11:01

That. Has done and that kind of that

11:03

beautiful way and south that I think speedster

11:05

that s Spear. maybe not all craft beer

11:08

but the best side of craft beer Yes

11:10

And as you know those breweries that are

11:12

so focused and as brewers not just from

11:14

her sober his numbers in general so focused

11:16

on making beautiful beers and South's it is

11:19

he had these are. Yet.

11:21

It is expressing this love of communities

11:23

of anyway I am. I'm getting theoretical

11:25

nana how we should talk more about

11:28

brewing. I'm like I said, want to

11:30

talk about that? Both a spontaneous and

11:32

n wild sides here. We're sitting right

11:34

now in the woods. Sellers are surrounded

11:37

by barrels. You've got spontaneous beer bubbling

11:39

over his eyes out. there was brewed

11:41

last month that as a is still

11:43

fermenting away here. And of course we

11:46

can talk about Jitterbug Perfume, the Crazy

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a soccer bouncer spontaneous and wilde a

13:35

beer and ungulates speed. But as is

13:38

somewhat separate things are different avenues to

13:40

get deaths. And you know Nick once

13:42

give served a primer on the the

13:44

program here to Arizona Wilderness you all

13:46

are still have a dedicated facility for

13:48

wild and sour beer. Here

13:50

and are you know and. It's

13:53

a pretty big commitment so this style of here.

13:56

It. is it's it's awesome that ass you

13:58

know janna pat are still very passes about

14:00

these funky, we call mixed culture beers.

14:02

They all kind of, most of them

14:04

at least, start off as mixed culture

14:06

Saisons. But yeah, our heart's

14:08

been in these styles since day

14:10

one. John and Pat were brewing some sour

14:13

stuff way before it even became a thing,

14:16

I think. And it might be gone now,

14:18

but it might not be a thing anymore,

14:21

that is. Let's keep

14:23

it alive. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Saison

14:25

is not a crime, sour beer is not a crime. The

14:28

fact that it's maybe not as cool anymore makes

14:30

it even more cool in my

14:33

heart. Exactly, same, same, absolutely. But yeah, so

14:35

we feel- It's like the old hardcore thing,

14:37

like if you're not now, you never were.

14:39

Exactly. We're gonna see if

14:41

the true believers were. Exactly, exactly. But

14:45

yeah, so we still do spontaneous beers as

14:47

well. We try to do at least one

14:49

or two batches every year just to keep

14:51

the pipeline going. Any

14:53

brewers those styles can tell you, you

14:55

have to dump definitely a fair amount

14:58

of those just to get to the

15:00

good stuff. So yeah, we- Especially down

15:02

here in Arizona where it's very, very

15:05

dry and not quite as cold as-

15:07

Absolutely, so we take advantage of that.

15:09

I mean, the state's vast and tons

15:11

of different elevations within. So if

15:14

we ever do need a cold climate- I shouldn't

15:16

say it's not that cold. I have been stuck

15:18

in a blizzard between Phoenix

15:20

and Flagstaff driving home in February from Tucson

15:23

to one point, yeah. Absolutely, yeah. So a

15:25

lot of the times, we've done these camp

15:27

cool ships is what we call them. We'll

15:30

drive to higher elevations so we get a little bit

15:32

longer of a brewing season out of that. But

15:35

also, I mean, kind of in the peak of winter

15:38

here, it does get down to colder temps out

15:40

in the desert, kind of away from the city and sometimes

15:42

even in the city. So last

15:44

week we actually went to, we did our

15:46

first one in Gilbert that's not at our

15:49

brewery, our first spontaneous beer. We went out

15:51

to a riparian preserve and

15:53

cast out some hotwort amongst

15:56

Many different ponds and birds and all kinds of

15:58

wildlife and all that. Really looking

16:01

for the that when kicking off here, but we've

16:03

also get out donna to Superstitions kind of down

16:05

here in the valley and damn. Yeah,

16:07

like I said, somebody will like to do every year

16:09

So. Well. As own a

16:11

parse to those things out. Maybe first was

16:13

hug about spontaneous and then we'll go back

16:16

to them as these beers start as says

16:18

on his arms his own are talking about

16:20

how you me a build these recipes the

16:22

can stand up to the or whatever that

16:24

next processes bullets first talk about ads your

16:26

post at the spontaneous brewing and let's yeah

16:28

maybe for start with the word the to

16:31

make for it Yeah absolutely. So I'm like

16:33

most of our beers if not all. The

16:36

base green is another barley I'm going

16:38

up and avert a valley arm. And

16:40

awesome project which will probably get into a bit

16:43

later in his podcast. On. So skip

16:45

over that. By yes another barley have

16:47

to the pale. Copeland for idol makes

16:49

up about sixty percent. Sixty five are

16:51

trying to follow traditional Belgian landed crist.

16:54

Ah, The other portion is not thirty five,

16:56

forty percent on malted a sinner and White

16:58

wheat of Right On that's caught on pretty

17:00

much. As I see it nationwide, even

17:02

those lot of different farmers growing it seems to

17:05

grow well, but it is, you know, kind of

17:07

based year and snore desert. So

17:09

yeah very simple grain bill or know acid

17:12

mall on go through. You know traditional Turpin

17:14

as traditional a Target is, you know, mass

17:16

schedule there's no place as a vacation that's

17:19

what you're saying. He had no no pre

17:21

mash acidification or anything like that. know it's

17:23

don't find it necessary to have. Been

17:27

so that's the grass and then we use

17:29

whole cone hops that we kind of age

17:31

in this back corner over here. those going

17:33

to every five years your fifteen barrel over

17:35

there can handle a target is mass or

17:38

as a target is yeah definitely it's Hermitage

17:40

Mass and even this year I was I

17:42

get some pointers on how to do some

17:44

just know high temp single season staff to

17:46

some workarounds to know is all that labour

17:48

truly necessary to create like a search you

17:51

works and will see by another some berries

17:53

that sort by. it's yeah what would you

17:55

oh what were you are. tweaking on that

17:57

process yes oh that's something us and

18:00

I've tried before I probably forgot

18:02

but just doing a high temp

18:04

single infusion mash with a very

18:06

short to no rest just

18:09

to not create too many fermentable sugars keep it

18:11

still pretty unfermensible to keep

18:13

you know for a long period of time. So say high temperature

18:15

how high? I think it hit

18:17

165 on this one so

18:20

165 and then just immediately vore off and start

18:22

watering and kind of did a fast water and

18:25

then a really hot sparge. I

18:28

think 190 plus on the sparge you know

18:30

extracting polyphenols and tannins and all the stuff

18:33

you typically don't want in a traditional mash.

18:37

So yeah bring me all the astringency.

18:39

Exactly yeah and those help for longevity

18:41

you know those things definitely

18:43

precipitate out over time and just give

18:45

some other foods for whatever

18:48

microbes we might capture or might be living

18:50

kind of in the space even or whatever

18:52

it might be whatever mystery and magic that

18:54

actually is. So you know you

18:56

pull this mash and then you

18:58

boil a wort after that you mention a little

19:00

bit of hops but obviously not much. Yeah

19:03

we use about kind of

19:05

berries between two-thirds of a pound

19:07

or a pound per barrel of whole cone age hops

19:10

that's definitely not easy we don't we're not set up

19:12

for whole cone hops on the hot side. Yeah. So

19:15

we just use some muslin bags and whatever to strain it out. We

19:17

do age them yourself yeah we've had a nice

19:19

stockpile over the years. I see the YCH lambic

19:21

blend is on a crazy sell right now. Yeah

19:23

yeah you know in a per pound rate if

19:25

anyone wants to some real bargains out there. That's

19:28

good to know actually. Yeah it doesn't hurt to

19:30

have some pellets on hand. I saw that yeah

19:32

there it was like a the 2020 lambic

19:34

blend of that. And is that pelletized

19:37

too or is that like aged whole lemon

19:39

pelletized? Yeah sorry. But it was like less

19:41

than a dollar a pound. That's awesome nice

19:43

nice. Anyway not to distract. Yeah

19:45

we age we age them all in house you

19:47

know we'll buy whole cone hops a little

19:50

bit extra every year. I like to use whole

19:52

cone fresh hop I like to use whole cone

19:54

hops in other brews I just kind of

19:56

like the other characteristics they provide for

19:58

these mixed culture beers. But

20:00

yeah, we'll stuff some in an old coffee bean sack, a

20:03

burlap sack in the back here and kind of sit

20:05

on them for a while. Are there particular varieties that you

20:07

use? Not really. I

20:09

really like, we've got all kinds of stuff. I really like crystal

20:13

is really nice, sterling, Chinook

20:16

have been really nice and Cascade even just

20:18

a simple stuff. We've even dry hopped a

20:20

couple beers with some of these Aged Hops

20:22

just to understand them a little bit better

20:24

and that's turned out some really interesting things.

20:26

In what way? I

20:28

don't know, it's just like this different. You don't

20:30

like clean beers with? Not necessarily

20:33

clean beers but like mixed culture saison,

20:35

dry hopped with Aged Hops, an ingredient

20:37

maybe typically just see in spontaneous beers.

20:39

But I know there's definitely a trend

20:41

amongst these kind of new wave

20:43

of saison brewers using Aged Hops more

20:45

and more in their process. So what

20:47

you are saying, if I'm reading between

20:49

the lines, you are adding some funky

20:51

character to some of these

20:53

other saison that you make simply by using

20:55

the same Aged Hops? Absolutely, I digress a

20:58

little bit. No, no, no, absolutely. I'm just

21:00

trying to get it all on the record.

21:03

Just let the record show. That's

21:05

really interesting to me and obviously for years

21:08

we're always trying to pinpoint where

21:11

are these flavor contributions coming? How

21:14

are you getting that really pleasing

21:16

funk that we all love about

21:18

these Belgian inspired beers? And

21:21

obviously Aged Hops always played a pretty

21:23

significant part in it but it's also

21:26

possible to go overboard and

21:28

get unpleasant funk out of that

21:30

too. How do you massage that?

21:32

Yeah, I mean it's all sensory, right? You just got to smell

21:35

what you're putting into the beer. You understand it

21:37

a little bit more so than before you add

21:39

it. So just knowing what you're getting into. So

21:42

rubbing the hops before we're adding it. So

21:45

yeah, I pulled some Aged Hops for

21:47

a spontaneous brew and really like the

21:49

characteristics out of those. So

21:51

I'm presenting just kind of like dehydrated grapefruit

21:54

vibes from a cascade. I'm

21:56

like, oh, this could be really fun. Let's throw it

21:59

into a... To a non spontaneous beer

22:01

or at dry up in Canada see what happens.

22:03

So and I really like the results and and

22:05

look forward to doing more though some tests any

22:07

of our facet on it or anything the means

22:09

never had that don't know the answer. yeah we

22:12

we don't have a sentence for that but I

22:14

read so those i think we're like from twenty

22:16

teens other ways or five years old. Yeah. We've.

22:19

Been. Pretty good results. we do test a dad

22:21

will send out for ib you testing like gray

22:24

on after bearing the some of the sub sister.

22:26

Get. An understanding from the finish beer or

22:28

the in a work. But I'm. No.

22:31

Yes, the five five years it's you're a

22:33

good point There is there in two different

22:36

ages for different hop varieties here, yet a

22:38

higher higher starting Alpha China maybe use those

22:40

a little bit later in there in her

22:42

lifespan. But. Yeah,

22:45

I think you're three years is kind of

22:47

our average. we just happen to have some

22:49

older stuff as well. So yes and then

22:51

how do you our yard or they just

22:54

sitting out and bags open would have you.

22:56

I've near treat around here in the brown.

22:58

Yeah so they're actually just kind of television

23:01

because it's such a way to speak survive

23:03

that kind of brewer our known as a

23:05

grim in Brooklyn. Yeah your bags tied up

23:07

around their the side of the warehouse and

23:10

it's just a cool around the brickhouse it

23:12

unites as such a fun to worry. Way

23:14

so I can do this or course obviously

23:16

that's Jester King barn and just walk upstairs.

23:19

I you know nagged Ricky Ricky barn with

23:21

day as you are just use aging there's

23:23

some years did all seeks to the romantic

23:25

store and about it and are you know

23:27

how your processing these no escape pointer I

23:29

mean maybe I should display them a little

23:32

bit more. A new here in his associates

23:34

for customers are sold as a sorcerer or

23:36

of yes we are we to seven burlap

23:38

sacks like a sad and damn just kind

23:40

of to to sitting out exposed to the

23:43

ambient air and. Yes, they just

23:45

hang out kind of by themselves for awhile.

23:47

Ah yes. the original mix i

23:49

was out about tag match rp the veil

23:51

is process where it's has been plastic bins

23:53

like every now and i'll just turn him

23:55

over honor them over as soon as a

23:57

citizen burlap i think it's pretty poor a

23:59

soda not have to but if they were

24:01

in plastic or something like that, that makes a

24:03

ton of sense. We move the stuff around here

24:05

enough to where they get moved periodically. Yeah, yeah,

24:08

yeah, exactly. There's enough shuffling going on. Absolutely.

24:11

It's fair. It's fair. But, you

24:13

know, and so even though you don't know

24:15

what the alpha is on these, you're generally

24:17

just going by weight and okay. Yeah,

24:19

just a lot of, you know,

24:22

we've like- We seem to create

24:24

some variability potentially in the viability

24:26

of certain cultures within this

24:29

whole process. 100%, yeah. But

24:31

yeah, so the methodology, I mean, we've, like I said,

24:33

done spontaneous beers. I don't know when the first one

24:35

was. I know it was with other half. It was

24:37

before I joined the company. The first spontaneous brew was

24:40

with other half. So we've been doing them for, I

24:42

want to say five plus years. So it's trial and error. I

24:45

remember all these press releases. Yeah. We've

24:47

gone on a camping trip out in the

24:49

mountains and we, you know, spontaneous. Yeah, yeah.

24:51

Yeah, some crazy stuff back

24:53

in the day. We get the PR. We've

24:55

seen all the press releases. So

24:58

you brew the beer and

25:01

then, you know, what's the next step? Your

25:03

spontaneous process. Yeah, so- I was just

25:05

going to say you brew the beer. You boil this

25:07

wort with a half pound

25:09

to a pound per barrel of hops.

25:11

Yeah, absolutely. So mostly following the mythoed

25:14

traditionnelle guidelines that were put out, you know, a

25:16

few handful of years ago. I

25:18

know that might have fallen out of popularity in some way,

25:20

but I think it's a good set of rules to,

25:23

I like rules. Guidelines. I

25:25

like guidelines. You know, I like- I

25:28

like the chaos element, absolutely, but

25:30

some sort of starting point or

25:33

standardization of something just to riff

25:35

off of is always fun for

25:37

me. So follow those MT guidelines

25:40

for the most part. So yeah, brew

25:42

a turbid-ish mash, boil for three hours

25:44

minimum, and then yeah,

25:46

kind of once- usually we're brewing these

25:48

beers with a big group or- Three

25:50

hours here in Arizona where it's this

25:52

dry, you know, and you've got a

25:54

higher boil off rate than, you know,

25:56

say Brussels. Absolutely. Yeah, so I'll

25:58

definitely, you know, laugher over. More

26:01

than I think I need just in case Because

26:04

a lot of times, you know, that's three hours

26:06

minimum So like I said a lot of times

26:08

these camp cool ships are organized with other groups

26:10

or you know breweries or whatever So we're trying

26:12

to ring, you know herd cats We're

26:15

trying to leave to go whatever our destination is So it's

26:17

gone as long as you know, five six hours

26:19

before everyone's put together and ready to hit the

26:22

road. So So

26:24

yeah, that's always fun. If your boil

26:26

time depends on brewers schedules and logistics

26:28

you organize chaos Yeah,

26:30

I'm Cal lab day too, you know,

26:32

that's just basically everyone's just drinking from

26:34

from early morning. So That

26:37

extra amber reduced oil process which it's

26:39

pretty remarkable looks great. Yeah, exactly makes

26:41

some of this beer so good Yeah,

26:44

quite a bit as my yard characters

26:46

and some of that Lasting

26:48

sweetness that helps balance out some of

26:50

that funk. Absolutely. Yeah, so then you

26:53

you load it up You knock out

26:55

into you know without cooling

26:58

into a tote Yes, yes,

27:00

so we'll knock out you know bypass not

27:02

bypass the heat exchanger But you know not

27:04

activate any cold liquor right into some stainless

27:06

steel tokes just totes just our intermediate vessel

27:08

to You know seal

27:11

it off and not splash it all along the highway or the

27:13

roads or whatever And then

27:15

once we're at our destination just kind of

27:17

use a full 15 barrel batch then not

27:19

always I've cut them down to about You

27:22

know 10 barrels just to

27:24

yield an even to we

27:26

ferment these primarily in punches

27:29

So just to yield like an even eight barrels

27:32

Give or take So

27:35

yeah, it's a smaller smaller batch than 15. I feel like

27:37

the cooling rates a little bit better So

27:40

that's my preference sure we used to do 15s But

27:42

and I think we've done smaller even but but 10

27:44

seems to be about the sweet spot yielding about 8

27:48

So yeah, so you drive these

27:51

Into various places. Yeah, we've gone

27:53

all over cool ship. Yeah. Yeah,

27:55

so we'll basically just put these totes on the back of

27:57

our back of a

27:59

trailer It holds up pretty

28:01

well. We'll sandwich our cool ship here in

28:04

the middle of the totes, find our

28:06

destination. Sometimes we'll go

28:08

into some pretty crazy stuff, some crazy

28:11

terrain. We're dropping pins in

28:13

Google Maps all the time. Usually Pat

28:15

and John are scoping out the spot

28:17

and then drop some pins and everyone

28:19

heads there. And

28:21

then even while we're driving sometimes that pin

28:23

changes. It's like, oh, there's World War III

28:26

and a bunch of people shooting guns over

28:28

here. So that's always, keeps you on your

28:30

toes. Yeah, cool ship's in the middle. And it's

28:32

a commitment. I mean, you need to leave it

28:34

out for at least 12 hours or so, right?

28:39

Yeah. So we'll plan to get to our spot. Before

28:41

the sun goes down, everyone has time to...

28:43

We're camping, so everyone has time to set

28:46

up their tents and their stuff and not

28:48

having to use headlamps. Sure. And

28:50

yeah, all that, avoiding all that. So we'll

28:52

get there, call it five o'clock and we'll

28:54

hang out till usually seven or eight whenever

28:57

people are actually up and alive the

29:00

next morning. So yeah, 12 hours

29:03

plus. And usually we're scheduling this

29:05

around the weather. So that's usually enough

29:07

time to get it to, in the

29:09

mid sixties or whatever we'd like it

29:11

to be at. Sure. Sure. So

29:14

you've done these spontaneous fermentations

29:16

at a number of different locations,

29:18

whether it's up in the mountains,

29:20

whether it's at a riparian preserve,

29:23

as you mentioned, or whether they're

29:25

in fruit orchards. I remember seeing

29:27

those in the past, wherever this

29:29

is, have

29:31

you developed any kind of knowledge

29:33

or repeatability, like to understand how

29:36

the locations

29:38

impact, potentially impact

29:41

those fermentations, the spontaneous

29:43

fermentations? Because

29:45

at the same time, there's only a few data points

29:47

in any given year. And so there's

29:50

also the brew questions and there's all the

29:52

other process things that can impact that. A

29:55

lot of variables. It might be

29:57

hard to pinpoint those variables.

30:00

Yeah, there's so many variables. I didn't mean to cut you off there. So

30:03

many variables. To be honest,

30:05

I'd say no. We haven't really

30:07

revisited many locations. We have done

30:09

the Superstition Mountains back-to-back years now,

30:12

so that will definitely be interesting. So

30:16

looking forward to collecting more of that data, understanding kind

30:18

of what we are capturing a little bit better is

30:20

something I look forward to expanding on

30:22

in the coming years. I don't

30:24

know if it's just Power of Suggestion, but

30:26

the Stoic one we were trying a couple

30:28

months ago, Stoic's apple

30:31

orchard in Cider Place out

30:34

towards Tucson. Prescott, actually. Prescott. Okay, yeah. I

30:36

swear there were some apple notes to it

30:38

when we were tasting it, but it definitely

30:40

could have been Power of Suggestion. Yeah,

30:43

absolutely. So that is a good highlight,

30:46

absolutely. That one is straight-up pear and

30:48

apple. And not acid

30:50

albahide kind of tones there, but

30:52

definitely some nuance, orchard fruit. So

30:55

that's a really exciting one. So

30:57

another one we're releasing actually tomorrow is

31:00

one we did in a citrus grove

31:03

at Agritopia Farms where we get all

31:05

of our citrus. Big thing

31:07

here in Arizona. So I think that

31:09

one's got some fun orange citrus kind of notes to

31:11

it as well. Power of Suggestion, I don't like the

31:14

suggest tasting notes too much. Are

31:19

there any commonalities to batches that have not

31:21

made it through or where you just have

31:23

had to let those go and some circumstances

31:26

as you've been able to identify that really

31:28

didn't set them up for success? 100%.

31:31

Yeah, one common thing I'm finding, and I

31:33

can't stand it, and I wish I knew

31:35

what the source was, but it's a just

31:37

green olive character that just does not go away.

31:41

And that has been the most frustrating one

31:43

for sure. I mean, I haven't found a

31:45

way to isolate that or understand what's driving

31:47

it. I haven't, unfortunately. So

31:50

if anyone out there has some ideas, please

31:52

reach out. But yeah, not a fan of

31:54

that. We'll get to the bottom of this.

31:57

One thing you do is steam the crap out

31:59

of your barrel. barrels so that everything

32:01

is entirely neutral, right? The

32:08

research keeps coming around every now and then. Well,

32:11

spontaneous beer or lambic isn't

32:13

really spontaneous. It's all being driven by the

32:15

culture and the barrels. And obviously

32:18

in my conversations with Belgian brewers,

32:20

they have different opinions and different

32:22

approaches on that. And someone like

32:24

Pierre Tilcan has very explicitly stated,

32:26

like we clean our barrels. We

32:28

want different things in each of our barrels. And

32:30

if it was all coming out of the barrels,

32:32

we would get the same culture and wouldn't be

32:35

able to blend from it. And what good would

32:37

that do us as a brewer? Totally

32:39

understandable perspective from that. But

32:42

then you also have the others who are like, yeah, we kind of clean

32:44

our barrels. There's a

32:46

house culture to that. And so

32:48

this range that exists is interesting

32:50

even within the Belgian approach to

32:52

lambic. But you are hardcore cleaning

32:54

everything out and trying to capture

32:57

the character wherever you are. Yeah,

32:59

for sure. And I just want to speak to like the camp cool ship

33:01

a little bit. Going over

33:03

it briefly, it kind of like sounds like, oh, it's just

33:05

crazy. We're just kind of going out there.

33:07

But it's pretty organized and it's fun.

33:09

And it's a really hyper representation of Arizona

33:11

wilderness, in my opinion, because it's not

33:13

just a brew team or like other people.

33:17

Like our chef made some patsies this last

33:19

time we went out and we're

33:21

cooking there. And there's just there's birt

33:23

servers there and restaurant staff and everybody out

33:25

there. And we're just kind of like all

33:28

part of this mission. And

33:31

yeah, the camping part of Arizona wilderness is kind of

33:33

it's a big thing. Camp cool ship was something I

33:35

had known about and hadn't been a part of. So

33:37

super stoked to be a part of it. But yeah,

33:40

it's not just ragtag like the he

33:42

has that van down to a science and

33:44

everything fits perfectly onto the trailer. And it's

33:47

a pretty neat operation to see. It

33:49

was cool. And a great company bonding experience.

33:51

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. We

33:54

try to get as many people out as we can. What kinds of

33:56

seasons do you typically brew cool ship beers? Yeah, I'm

33:58

shooting for at least two. So more would be

34:01

great, but yeah, at least two. That

34:03

still produces a pretty decent amount

34:05

of spontaneous beer for you, given

34:08

what current consumers actually purchase of that

34:10

style of beer. Yeah, exactly. You

34:13

nailed it. Unfortunately, I wish there were

34:15

more. But yeah, that's pretty much what dictates it.

34:18

So then what's your next step with these Cool

34:20

Ship beers? Are you then

34:22

releasing single-season beers, or do you

34:24

then split those streams and blend

34:27

some? Are you working into multi-year

34:29

blends? Where do you take that

34:31

spontaneous beer after that fermentation

34:34

process and aging process? Yeah, absolutely.

34:36

Right now, we're just releasing them

34:38

as seasonal things, more like lambic

34:40

than goose. But

34:42

eventually, our goal is to find the right

34:44

beer and the right stock to create a

34:46

three-year blend would be really fun, or even

34:48

more. I know there's some spontaneous breweries out

34:50

there. They're producing five-plus-year-old stuff, and that's amazing.

34:53

That's really cool. But just having- As

34:55

long as it tastes good. As long as it tastes good, exactly.

34:58

I've had some five-year blends where you- Yeah.

35:01

Could have been a three-year blend. Yeah, a little harsh on the throat,

35:03

maybe. It's okay. Like I

35:05

said, you have marketing stunts,

35:08

but then you also want

35:10

to just make beautiful beers. And

35:12

so that's the more important thing. If you have

35:14

it to blend, and you can make great beer

35:17

with it, great. Absolutely. Yeah, but

35:19

right now, we're just showcasing each region of Arizona that we

35:21

go to, kind of by itself. Interesting.

35:24

And then, do you then,

35:27

after that process, are these

35:29

all just released as that

35:32

straight, spontaneous beer? Or

35:34

are you doing ingredient blends then after the

35:36

fact on any of these? Yeah,

35:38

right now, none of these have been

35:40

fruited. That is something John actually specifically wants for

35:43

next year. I think we're going to

35:45

find some awesome Arizona fruit, maybe even

35:47

some Arizona cherries, and do Creek-inspired beer.

35:50

Yeah. So that's the goal there. But

35:52

yeah, right now, it's just been straight up. No

35:56

blending even. We've done some beer decoupage, some

35:59

blends of spontaneous beer. and mixed culture

36:01

Saison, but other than that, it's just

36:03

been straight spontaneous beer, no other adjuncts

36:05

whatsoever. All right. Well,

36:07

I want to flip around and talk

36:09

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36:11

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36:13

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36:16

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37:26

All right, not to keep harping on

37:28

sour beer, but I shouldn't even say,

37:30

Saison is not necessarily sour beer. I

37:32

would not have defined the beers you

37:34

all gave us for that issue as

37:38

necessarily sour per se. They

37:40

had an acidic component to them. But talk

37:42

about your Saison process. How does

37:45

that recipe start? And then in

37:47

particular, I'm curious how you build

37:49

interesting bases knowing that you're going

37:51

to load in some

37:53

pretty heavy, characterful

37:55

flavors, ingredients on top of

37:58

them. Yeah, absolutely. So

38:00

I guess much like the grist of our

38:02

spontaneous beers, I like to keep everything pretty

38:04

simple Primarily the Sonago

38:06

barley is at the core of all of

38:09

these beers and I swear we're gonna talk

38:11

about that Yeah,

38:17

Sonago barley is the base and then some

38:19

usually malted Sonora white wheat I prefer that

38:21

a little bit over the the raw stuff

38:23

for these Quicker turn

38:25

I guess Saison and all that relatively quick.

38:27

You know, it's not as old as a

38:30

four-month beer And

38:32

I'd say most of the stuff that comes out

38:34

of these bariques and barrels here is in that

38:37

six-month range in oak So give or take, you

38:39

know widely but yeah,

38:41

Sonago barley 25%

38:43

ish malted Sonora

38:45

white wheat sometimes raw is in there sometimes

38:48

Some oats or rye or whatever, you

38:50

know kind of character grains there It

38:53

kind of just depends but mostly primarily

38:55

it's a it's a pale malt. It

38:57

depends on what you're feeling right? Exactly. Yeah, how we want

38:59

to yeah, but we want to play around with but so

39:02

yeah, that's that's the base of them I

39:05

find that it gives a great character

39:08

Something that we have been trying to incorporate a

39:10

little bit more. So is working with a local Newer

39:14

local farm that's really pushing the regenerative

39:17

organic certified grain so they're growing up

39:21

Out west of here, I believe I haven't visited

39:23

the farm yet. They are newer but

39:25

they're brewing some ROC certified Red

39:29

Fife and blue durham wheats and

39:31

all kinds of really fun stuff So so

39:33

those I have been using kind

39:36

of in replacing the the Sonora white wheat

39:38

component of it So, you know 75% Sonagua

39:40

and then 25% of those character grains Just

39:45

trying to we'll get into ROC agriculture maybe

39:47

a little bit regenerative agriculture a little bit

39:49

later But yeah something we

39:51

really want to push going forward and I

39:53

think doing a great job of that How

39:56

do those regenerative grains work, you know compared

39:58

to your normal wheat? Yeah,

40:00

I haven't done enough of them to really

40:02

say what distinct

40:05

characteristics they're providing versus the wheat. It's

40:07

just something a little bit different and

40:10

a different color on the palette when we are

40:12

blending. Those beers going into

40:14

oak are gonna taste a little bit different than

40:16

the other ones. So what I try

40:18

to do here is create and brew

40:20

just smaller batches, 15 barrel batches

40:22

instead of double brews, which is what we

40:24

typically do just for efficiency. I

40:27

like to create and fill bariques with

40:30

as much diverse stock as I can just

40:33

again to create different colors to then play

40:35

with. And I think kind of

40:37

going into Jitterbug kind of speaks to that.

40:39

So I was looking at the

40:42

log that we kept for that and it's I

40:44

think six different base beers went into that. So

40:46

none of it really from a single thread of

40:48

beer which is kind of funny.

40:50

Some more acid forward barrels, some

40:54

pretty heavily hopped and therefore a little bit

40:56

cleaner. And then Chad

40:58

and I, the assistant brewer here,

41:01

we went through and picked through a bunch

41:04

of stuff that we thought would fit the

41:06

profile of those beats. So I think we

41:08

came up with something pretty nice, but yeah,

41:10

five different work streams were

41:13

made up that Jitterbug. How

41:16

much of that beer did you make to where

41:18

you could pull that many different barrels to

41:20

blend into it? Yeah, so what we'll do, like I

41:22

said, we'll brew 15 barrels and then rack

41:26

that all out into into breaks and push and pull

41:29

and pull stuff out. So sometimes we're left with odd

41:31

ball barrels that are on a partial rack

41:33

or whatever. So that's just the way it ended up being

41:35

and the way it was convenient

41:37

for us too. Sometimes blending is not

41:39

just for taste. It's to

41:41

be quite honest, it's for convenience. You

41:44

don't wanna use a partial barrel. You don't wanna use

41:47

something, I don't know. That's

41:49

just my take on it. You throw it on the bench

41:51

there too and then all of a sudden now, that

41:54

could add something to this and here we go. Absolutely,

41:56

yeah. Well, so the interesting thing is

41:59

that the answer my question really is

42:01

that through the blend and through pulling all

42:03

of these things together at various

42:05

ages and various kinds of wood

42:08

character, all of these things, that's

42:10

how you creatively

42:12

process this idea

42:14

of supporting those ingredients. Yeah, absolutely.

42:18

Again, just trying to create a

42:20

diverse stock, absolutely. And

42:23

then what we're doing is, like you mentioned, just kind of

42:25

bench-topping stuff. So something

42:27

I even learned from when I went to Toucan,

42:29

that's a good example. He's

42:31

got these brands of fruited gus

42:34

in Lambex that he releases every year, but

42:37

he always plays with what proportions and how

42:39

much can you stretch something and still maintain

42:41

the integrity of the beer, the integrity of

42:43

the fruit. So we're constantly

42:45

doing stuff like that. And just playing

42:48

with something before we fully commit, I guess, is the

42:50

responsible thing to do, playing around

42:52

with it. So tell me then about getting

42:55

great results out

42:57

of using beets, because beets are a

42:59

very polarizing ingredient. Yeah, absolutely. And I

43:01

think as we sat around the judging

43:03

table and I listened to our

43:06

judges responding to the beer, I kept

43:10

hearing, well, I don't typically like beet

43:13

beers. Oh, you know,

43:15

or normally these beet

43:17

beers are just so earthy. Talk

43:20

to me about your creative process and finding balance

43:22

there. Yeah, I love changing people's minds like that.

43:24

Just going back to Fair Isle, Fair Isle only

43:26

brewed when I was there at least. Mixed culture

43:28

Saison. So we would hear it all the time.

43:30

Like, oh, I don't typically like Saison, but that's

43:33

all you got. And these are pretty damn good.

43:36

So I love hearing that. And like I said,

43:38

changing people's minds. So yeah, Jitterbug perfume was a

43:41

reimagining of a beer we

43:43

did with beets a long time ago and kind of

43:46

fell out of favor. And we just kind of stopped

43:48

making it. But since I've been back,

43:50

we've kind of dug up some of these old brands

43:53

that maybe fell by the

43:55

wayside and just kind of reimagining them instead

43:57

of like Saison or Whit beers, kind

43:59

of reimagining them. them as these mixed

44:01

culture projects. So yeah, we did

44:03

a beet wit back in the

44:06

day and yeah, I

44:08

wanted to go back to it because I loved drinking it.

44:10

I loved the flavors we got out of it. So not

44:13

just earthy beet notes but a

44:15

lot of just red fruit, raspberry kind of notes

44:17

and wanted to recreate that. So we

44:20

used the same farm that we used

44:22

many years ago, Steadfest Farms and got

44:24

some of their awesome beets that grow

44:26

very well in the colder

44:28

months. So something fun and

44:30

fruit-esque that's not necessarily fruit. So

44:33

had our kitchen. Thankfully we've got a kitchen

44:35

that can do all the roasting, roasted the beets

44:37

up and actually the secret, the

44:39

big secret I think I guess is after

44:42

roasting just peel off that outside skin layer

44:44

and that's where all that dirt and kind

44:46

of funk and earth really I think resides.

44:48

And once they're kind of cleaned

44:50

up, they're just this beautiful vegetable

44:52

that's got a ton of flavor to offer. I

44:54

think a lot of the times people don't like beets. They haven't

44:57

eaten them in the right way. We have a beet

44:59

and apple salad that's the staple

45:02

side here at Wilderness and it's

45:04

phenomenal. Local beets

45:06

from Steadfest Farms that's just right down the

45:08

road. So I think it's how you prepare

45:11

them. They're

45:13

not the beets that your

45:15

mom was leaving the skin on when she was cooking and forcing

45:17

you to eat when you were five. Yeah,

45:20

absolutely. I personally love beets. My

45:22

wife hates them. So we have

45:24

a very different opinion on them but

45:26

I love to do the perfume and I think

45:29

you're right. When you capture that kind of sweetness

45:31

and that kind of character to them, there's

45:34

something just so nice

45:36

and round and that they evoke

45:39

all these other red fruit flavors

45:41

alongside of it. How

45:43

did you then balance out that very

45:46

strong beet flavor? Yeah, that's

45:48

a great question. So we had an

45:50

initial dosage rate in mind and threw

45:53

them in the beer and let it steep for a

45:55

while and people drink with their eyes first and the

45:57

color on that beer is just... Gnarly,

46:00

it's it's so cool and you

46:02

know the initial major PR guy send us a

46:04

bottle I didn't tell him why but I needed

46:07

a we had a we drunk the two bottles

46:09

you'd sent But I had to have the

46:11

color of that beer in our photography for

46:13

that that best of beer should because it's

46:15

such a beautiful color Yeah, but in that

46:17

clear glass was yeah was was definitely the

46:19

right move. Yeah big fan of that So

46:22

it's funny. Yeah, the initial blend was you know concentrated and

46:24

we're like man I think it's really really nice and I

46:26

think we can kind of get a little bit more out

46:28

of it and It actually we

46:31

blended another barique in and it I think

46:33

it made the color pop even more somehow

46:35

and and then yeah just I mean just based

46:37

on taste is kind of what Chad and I did there and topped

46:41

it up with some a little bit a little tiny bit

46:43

of lemon juice just to push the acid a little farther

46:45

and sharpen it and kind of brighten it and then a

46:47

little bit of Fresh gun coriander

46:50

to just again brighten it up and maybe

46:52

even accentuate some of those notes So you

46:54

mentioned that like five or six different wort

46:57

streams went into this beer You

46:59

know as you build a blend for that, you know,

47:01

how do you what were you pulling from

47:03

and you know Were there specific things you

47:06

were looking for that could support that

47:08

kind of strong flavor? Yeah, absolutely. So when

47:10

I you know, my second sit at wilderness

47:13

here So kind of when I started a

47:15

couple years ago again, we're kind of restarting

47:17

our house mix culture So, you know

47:19

when I got in I just kind of wanted to

47:21

refill some barrels and then recreate some of these stocks

47:23

And I just kind of went all over the place

47:27

I picked out some specific Cezanne yeast

47:29

There's a couple different yeast in there

47:31

a couple different lactose strains

47:33

and some PDO and some Brett strains as

47:35

well so I just kind of

47:37

created some different warts with varying IBU levels

47:40

and like I said brood 15 barrels of

47:42

Whatever and and tucked them away

47:44

in barrels for a while and and again had

47:46

all these different colors to play with so we

47:48

pulled from you know, some pretty neutral stock and

47:50

then some of the the lower

47:52

IBU stuff turned pretty sour and actually ended up

47:54

really nice and Through those into the

47:56

blend and my personal preference is

47:58

again. Yeah, not to make sour, sour

48:00

beer, I don't think. It's not

48:03

for me. We've all grown up

48:05

since then. Yeah, exactly. These face

48:07

ripping sour stuff. But

48:10

you do like some acid and you can

48:12

always use a very sour

48:14

barrel, sharpens up a blend

48:16

very nicely. So it's good to have those

48:18

things on hand. Or you can just add

48:20

lemon juice too. Yeah, or you can just

48:22

add lemon juice. Locally grown lemons of course.

48:24

So yeah, we were, what was the question

48:27

again? No, that's a neat

48:32

process. Obviously I wanted to dive in

48:34

and really understand this beer since it

48:36

was one of our favorites of last

48:38

year. It was just so artfully crafted

48:40

and found its own balance and had

48:42

just the perfect amount of sweetness left

48:45

that helped offset some of that little

48:47

bit of that earthiness and then those

48:49

like you said berry characters. As you

48:51

mentioned, we're really just beautifully expressed. I

48:53

love this category beer and I know I said it

48:55

on our Best in Beer episode of the podcast because

48:57

I find that this is the

49:00

kind of sour beer that can go toe to

49:02

toe with natural wine. And I,

49:05

as a beer proponent, think

49:08

that most natural winemakers are nowhere near

49:10

as good at making acid forward beverages

49:12

that capture all these flavors as

49:15

beer makers are because number one, they don't

49:17

have as many tools at their disposal. They

49:20

can't use all the fruits and flavors and ingredients

49:22

that the beer makers can. And so if people

49:24

are looking for this, I think the beer, again,

49:28

unbiased as a

49:30

beer guy, I'm biased. But I love that clear

49:32

bottle and that approach because it really shows that

49:34

all that off. Yeah. And I think you're exactly

49:36

right. That's the, that's kind of the market we're

49:39

trying to hit. Cause

49:41

I do think, you know, your natural wine,

49:44

sparkling wine drinkers would appreciate

49:47

some of our mixed culture stuff. Cause the

49:49

flavor profiles are very similar. And

49:52

the fruit, fruit characteristics are very similar as well.

49:55

Yeah. I would say your funk characteristics

49:57

are better, but yeah, very dry.

50:00

Somewhat funky, you know beers and wines and

50:02

all that. Well, let's completely shift gears here

50:04

now, or I shouldn't say completely shift gears

50:06

because we have hinted at talking about the

50:08

Sonagua barley, several points

50:10

here, but let's talk about

50:13

the, you know, the Arizona

50:15

wilderness approach to regenerative agriculture,

50:18

about supporting grain growers here in the

50:20

state who are using, you

50:22

know, things like low water grains, grains

50:24

that can grow in the difficult climate

50:27

here in Arizona, you know, and also

50:29

finding these ingredients, working with it to find ingredients

50:32

that work within beer itself. Talk to me about that, Brad.

50:34

Yeah, yeah, I don't have 100% of the details, but

50:37

the story, the way I've heard it, is

50:39

the Nature Conservancy kind of approached Arizona

50:42

wilderness and was like, hey, if we get some

50:44

farmers to plant some barley in place of corn

50:46

and alfalfa, and we get someone to malt it,

50:49

would you guys use it? And

50:51

John and Pat are always just kind of like,

50:53

whatever's local, yeah, sure, we'll do it. And

50:56

so they got, chip up at Senagua,

50:59

was the maltster, and I believe the first

51:01

place they were malting was an old, like,

51:04

drive-through car wash that they had

51:06

purchased. And I've looked

51:08

through the brew logs, and there was some major

51:11

trials and tribulations. When they were first going through

51:13

this malt, there was dumb batches, there was low

51:15

extract, but

51:17

wilderness kind of like stuck with it and

51:19

kept trying and kept trying and kept trying.

51:22

And then finally, Senagua figured it

51:24

out, got to a point to where

51:26

we could use 100% Senagua for

51:28

everything, and tons of these farmers

51:30

up in the Verde Valley. Do

51:33

you know, Nick, if it was, was it the

51:35

Nature Conservancy? Yeah, I believe so. Yeah, and the

51:37

goal was to keep water

51:40

in the Verde Valley. Yeah, exactly, and I'm

51:42

closing on this too. Yeah, the goal was

51:44

to keep water in the Verde and basically

51:46

swapping alfalfa out, because it's like

51:48

a high water usage during the summer months.

51:51

Right, yeah. So they swapped

51:53

alfalfa with Coplan two row.

51:56

Senagua was malting it, and it was just, it was

51:58

a pretty laborious. process to get

52:00

through, but they made it and they were

52:03

consistently making good grain and

52:05

kind of created this local grain economy.

52:09

To the point now to where Senagua put in some

52:12

new, they got some... South alfalfa is just

52:14

feed, right? Animal feed? Animal feed,

52:16

yeah. Most of our rides. So barley, brewing barley

52:18

would be a higher value crop for a lot

52:20

of the farmers. Exactly, yeah. Higher

52:22

value crop and it's keeping more water

52:24

into the soil and not pulling from

52:27

the verde. It seemed like

52:29

a good project for them and they wanted to be

52:31

on board with it. And it

52:33

got to the point to where Senagua was doing

52:35

so well that they got some outside funding and

52:37

they upgraded their facility. And

52:40

now there's the point to where they're killing malts too. Kind

52:43

of turn this all around, like it wasn't just

52:46

them they were working with, they were working with

52:48

Oatman Farms, which is the opposite way I think

52:50

they're southeast. And they're

52:52

doing wheat, regenerative organic

52:55

wheat specifically, which

52:57

Senagua's malting. So they just kind of

52:59

created this whole interconnected

53:02

Arizona malt. It's

53:04

really interesting how brewing can be at the

53:07

center of this whole

53:09

agricultural product or project that

53:11

also changes the way that

53:13

everyone from growers and maltsers approaches

53:16

ingredients made here too. So now,

53:18

how much of this Senagua

53:20

barley do you use? It's 100%

53:22

of our base malt. 100%

53:25

of your base malt is all... Wow. The

53:27

only exception is Kernza or Kernza Project

53:29

with Patagonia where

53:31

that has to be organic malt

53:33

and Senagua isn't certified organic. But

53:36

that's the only beer that we're not using it in.

53:39

Well, that's really interesting. So you're also

53:42

now then moving

53:44

brands that people have some expectations

53:47

around, some classic beers that your

53:49

customers at Arizona Wilderness know. How

53:52

did then using this barley, did it change any

53:54

of that? Or did it change any of the

53:56

approaches in the brew house around some of these

53:58

things? Yeah, I fully think... So I think

54:00

that was part of the growing process. It

54:02

was a years-long long thing I think they

54:05

were using some sin agua and then supplementing

54:07

with what whatever domestic to row they were

54:09

using before And it

54:11

got to the point to where there was enough of it to where

54:14

all the house beers were made with

54:16

that and it's a pretty Neutral

54:18

malt it has its own characteristics, but it's not

54:20

far off from a raw or two row or

54:22

anything like that Yeah, it's definitely come a long

54:24

way I was I was here when

54:27

we got the first few shipments of the the early

54:29

early Sinagua barley and yeah, like

54:31

Brad mentioned it was it was all over the

54:33

map We have coa wise like it you

54:36

know very high protein very tough to water

54:38

sometimes stuff to convert pH

54:41

was all over the place and

54:43

then yeah, they dialed their stuff in a little bit

54:45

more But yeah, it's our flavor

54:47

profile is definitely more grassy and just kind

54:49

of different So,

54:52

yeah, we started just blending in grassy and

54:54

different I don't

54:56

recall uses years ago. I just remember it being

54:58

you know It

55:00

wasn't so off-putting that you know customers flipped out

55:02

sure But you know internally we definitely noticed a

55:04

little bit of a difference but I mean over

55:07

the past few years now they've really dialed things

55:09

in and Their malt

55:11

coa's are a lot more consistent. So

55:13

yeah, it's it's super consistent. We don't notice

55:16

I didn't notice coming here any

55:18

different from any other to grow And

55:22

on top of the two row we're using Arizona Sonoran

55:24

white wheat In all of our

55:26

hazy's and whatever else we're putting wheat into Yeah

55:30

So it's really a drive to put as much

55:32

Arizona-grown grain into these beers for the most part

55:34

other than I imagine a few specialties that no

55:37

one is making around here Where you have to

55:39

yeah, yeah, that's yeah exactly We're

55:41

gonna use it local we're gonna try to source

55:44

our ingredients local first first and

55:46

foremost And we do

55:48

get our specialty grains from other places,

55:50

but Sinagua just started

55:53

killing and roasting grains. So we actually

55:55

just got pale chocolate

55:57

chocolate malt a light crystal

56:00

in a biscuit malt that we're going to

56:02

make our chocolate bunny porter with. Interesting.

56:06

I think the other cool

56:09

piece about this is the

56:11

way that I've talked to plenty of brewers over the years

56:13

about this, like Brendan from Odell,

56:16

the key thing to changing the

56:18

agriculture is brewers supporting it. That

56:22

hop grower can't

56:24

necessarily put the resources into something new

56:26

or a new variety unless

56:28

there's a market for it and the

56:30

sponsors help bring that along. In

56:32

this sense, in a lot of ways, the Arizona

56:34

Wilderness, and I imagine there's probably other brewers here

56:36

in Arizona also, supporting and

56:39

basically sponsoring this whole project,

56:42

taking this and creating an

56:44

economic value for this

56:46

so that both the growers and the

56:50

malster could come along and get up to

56:52

that kind of speed to where it could

56:54

become a thing. It would have been

56:56

really easy to kill it in

56:58

its infancy just because it wasn't going

57:03

exactly the way you wanted it to be. No, for sure.

57:06

The dedication and the commitment was definitely there from the

57:08

beginning. We're not the only

57:10

one using Senagua now. I think we're the biggest

57:13

single customer, but I know Dark Sky is using

57:15

it up in Flagstaff. Rennhouse uses it a little

57:17

bit too. Wilderness

57:21

was the backbone of creating that

57:23

local Arizona grain economy. Yeah, that's

57:25

awesome. Talk to me a little

57:27

bit about Kernza. That's another thing that you

57:29

just mentioned. There's a perennial grain that Patagonia

57:31

has been really big behind. We've

57:34

seen a number of brewers brewing Kernza beers

57:36

now. Obviously, Patagonia is trying to build

57:39

a good network there. Even folks

57:41

like Russian River brew to Kernza beer. You

57:44

threw some in the fridge here. Talk to me about brewing

57:46

with that grain. Yeah, so Kernza is

57:49

a perennial wheat grain.

57:53

It's a regenerative organic where it's being grown.

57:57

Patagonia provisions the food side of Patagonia. approached

58:00

Arizona wilderness and a bunch of other

58:02

breweries, Sierra Nevada, Topa Topa, Aslan, I

58:04

think. I think it was just like

58:06

10 breweries. Just 10 breweries, yeah. They're

58:08

all kind of regionally focused who

58:11

kind of had the same ideals

58:13

as Patagonia. And it

58:16

was all like, hey, everyone make this lager

58:18

with it to kind

58:20

of promote using regenerative organic

58:22

ingredients. And

58:25

it's an interesting grain. It

58:27

looks completely different than normal wheat.

58:29

It's like long and dark brown.

58:32

It has kind of a nutty character to it. Brewing

58:35

with it, it's fine. It doesn't seem to louder

58:38

any different. We're using it about

58:40

20% in the current za lager that we're doing.

58:44

Yeah, and the taste is good. It's a phenomenal lot. Why

58:46

20%? Is that something that

58:48

someone else has decided or is that? Yeah,

58:51

I think so. The first few batches, the first

58:53

batch had been brewed when I started, but yeah,

58:56

there's only a certain amount of it out there.

58:59

So they were kind of trying to keep that a little

59:01

bit low. That's again how we're talking about Sonagua. And it

59:03

is a weed out of our laces. It is a weed,

59:06

yeah. And that's the only beer that

59:08

we make where the base malt is not

59:10

Sonagua. We use

59:12

the unorganic malt for that. But

59:16

yeah, I think about 20% organic hops. So

59:19

you haven't made a 100% current

59:22

za beer yet? No, we haven't tried that. It'd

59:24

be very expensive. The grain

59:26

is not cheap. I'm

59:29

hoping it does have some really nice

59:31

nutty character. So as

59:33

more people get this and the economy for this

59:35

specific grain grows, I kind of wanted to maybe

59:37

make a brown ale with it or something like

59:40

that. Interesting. Not sure too many

59:42

people would buy it, but it's something

59:44

I want to make with it. Brown ale, let's bring it back. Good

59:47

Patagonia story around brown ale would probably help

59:49

sell it a little bit. Yeah, probably.

59:53

No, the pictures of it are amazing when

59:55

you see the roots that go down like

59:57

several feet underground, sometimes even six feet underground.

1:00:00

And how this grain,

1:00:03

again, doesn't have to be sown each year. It's a

1:00:06

perennial grain, so it grows back. And

1:00:09

obviously, when it comes to that

1:00:11

agriculture, keeping all the nutrients in

1:00:13

the ground and not

1:00:15

just finding

1:00:19

the kind of biodynamic approach where

1:00:21

other crops are creating this is

1:00:23

necessary with some of these yearly

1:00:25

annual crops. But these perennials, they

1:00:28

can do all of it themselves.

1:00:30

Yeah, the vegetables with cerns are incredible. Like

1:00:32

you said, the root structure, how deep it

1:00:34

goes down. You can see there's

1:00:37

pictures of the soil moisture

1:00:39

in fields with it and

1:00:41

without it. And over time, how

1:00:43

moist the fields stay with this

1:00:45

grain in it. Yeah. Yeah,

1:00:48

that's great. I'm curious about it.

1:00:50

Any other interesting approaches to

1:00:52

grain and ingredients that you all use

1:00:55

with this local focus that you have?

1:00:57

Yeah, I think it's kind of, I

1:01:00

talk with Chip up at Senago a lot and he was

1:01:02

kind of like, hey, we're going to start roasting malts. What

1:01:04

do you want? So it's a lot of back and forth.

1:01:08

And talking with their maltster up there,

1:01:10

Russell, just kind of, he

1:01:12

asked me, he's like, what do you want? I'm like,

1:01:14

well, what do you make that's good? Like what do

1:01:16

you interested in malting and killing? So

1:01:19

it's just those conversations and that's kind

1:01:21

of how we approach ingredients here

1:01:23

too. We get it. Have

1:01:26

you given them the specs for some of these, what you would love to see

1:01:28

out of some of these roasted malts?

1:01:31

I did give them some basic color specs for the

1:01:33

darker stuff, but it's kind of just like, tell me

1:01:35

what it is and I can build a recipe around

1:01:37

that. Yeah. That's

1:01:40

interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

1:01:43

Anything else there on the grain side

1:01:45

that's interesting or even amongst other ingredients,

1:01:48

citrus or other things grown here

1:01:50

in Arizona. Yeah. The other

1:01:52

interesting green thing is open farms, like I said, is

1:01:54

doing some regenerative organic wheat too. And we just brewed

1:01:56

it in one of our fooders over here. We're going

1:01:58

to brew a wheat beer. with it or

1:02:01

we brewed a wheat beer with it. Senagua

1:02:04

baseball regenerative organic malt that's grown

1:02:06

at Oatman, malted at Senagua with

1:02:09

local citrus peel. So, yeah. How do you test

1:02:11

these things or do you just, are you

1:02:13

small enough that you could just give it a

1:02:15

whirl? Yeah, we're small enough we can

1:02:17

give it a whirl but also it's like looking at the

1:02:19

COA and kind of cross referencing

1:02:22

that and kind of, there's always a first

1:02:24

batch and never 100% sure if

1:02:26

it's going to come out but uh. When it

1:02:28

comes to wood notes and we throw it in

1:02:30

barrels. Maybe throw them in barrels. No, that's not

1:02:32

true. Not all that time. When you look at

1:02:34

those COAs, you know, what are the things that

1:02:36

stand out to you as a brewer and what

1:02:38

do you then adjust around, you know, what are

1:02:41

your, what are some of the key factors that

1:02:43

you're always looking at? Yeah, the um, the

1:02:45

fryability, the moisture content, the

1:02:47

um, the enzyme

1:02:49

potential in the malt. Yeah,

1:02:52

that's the biggest, that's the biggest one that I look at.

1:02:54

So. Make sure that it's actually going

1:02:56

to be able to uh. To convert, yeah.

1:02:58

Yeah. Yeah.

1:03:00

Cool. Cool. Um,

1:03:02

and he, maybe we'll zoom out a little bit and talk about,

1:03:04

you know, big picture with Arizona Wilderness. Um,

1:03:06

number of years under, you know,

1:03:08

for the Arizona Wilderness brand, Nick, this is

1:03:11

your second turn at, you're back at Arizona

1:03:13

Wilderness now. Yeah. Brad,

1:03:15

you're uh, you know, enjoying your nine months into

1:03:17

head to head brewer for Arizona Wilderness. Embarking

1:03:20

on a new brewery, uh,

1:03:23

uh, to kind of add production

1:03:25

capability here to be able to make and

1:03:27

package more beer. Um, what's

1:03:30

on the near term horizon for Arizona

1:03:32

Wilderness? What's the long term vision? Uh,

1:03:35

what does everyone here at Arizona Wilderness hope

1:03:37

to accomplish, you know, in five years? I

1:03:39

mean, the big thing is, um, from

1:03:42

a production standpoint is getting our

1:03:44

new facility up and running and

1:03:46

operating. We've

1:03:48

been brewing out of this brew pub for 10 years,

1:03:50

so it's, uh, it's seen some time and

1:03:52

it's had some, some wear and tear put

1:03:55

on it. Um, as a company overall, like

1:03:57

we're not looking to take over the world.

1:03:59

Um, but we, We do want to expand within

1:04:01

Arizona and kind of spread the message of

1:04:05

sustainability and conservation

1:04:07

through beer as much as we can while

1:04:11

still providing a quality product and

1:04:13

quality experience at our two locations.

1:04:17

Well, that sounds like a great place to bring this

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1:05:19

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about things like Jitterbug Perfume, a perfect 100 and

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one of our beers of the year for 2023. Nick,

1:05:32

Brad, thanks for joining me. Brad, if

1:05:35

people want to learn more about Arizona

1:05:37

wilderness, where do they find you in

1:05:39

real life and out there on the

1:05:41

internet? The main

1:05:43

place I'm active with work stuff is probably

1:05:46

Twitter. So miles

1:05:48

underscore Bradley for

1:05:50

Arizona wilderness is arizona wilderness.com or

1:05:52

Instagram, which if you just search

1:05:54

Arizona wilderness on there, you'll find

1:05:56

it. Learn all about us. Fantastic

1:05:59

work, Emory. here to the brew pub in

1:06:01

Gilbert or a downtown Phoenix tap room and

1:06:04

soon to be another production facility. Or our

1:06:06

Wood Notes cellar too, when we open it

1:06:08

up. Please come by. Right here where we

1:06:10

are now. Anyway, thanks it was great talking

1:06:12

with you guys about brewing. Cheers. Awesome, thank

1:06:14

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1:06:21

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