0:00

This podcast is brought to you by Craft Beer and Brewing

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Magazine for those that love to make and drink great

0:04

beer. To learn more or to subscribe, visit beerandbrewing.com

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or find us on social media at Craft

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Beer Brew.

0:22

For this episode of the Craft Beer and Brewing Podcast,

0:24

we're in Chicago, Illinois.

0:26

And in fact, this episode is going

0:28

to air on the very first day of the Festival

0:31

of Barrel-Aged Beers, the reason why

0:33

I am here in Chicago. It's

0:35

a quick turnaround on this episode, but joining me,

0:37

I actually hoofed it out on the

0:39

train today to Geneva, Illinois.

0:42

And we're sitting here in the Geneva Loggerworks

0:46

side of Art History Brewing

0:48

in Geneva, Illinois. And joining me are Tom

0:50

Rau and Greg Brown from Art

0:52

History. Welcome to the podcast, Tom

0:54

and Greg. Thank you. Thank you very much. We've,

0:57

it's been, this is a fun one to do. We,

1:00

I met Tom, was it 2017 or 2018 at the Brewery

1:02

Accelerator event here in Chicago?

1:04

It

1:07

was 18. Okay.

1:09

Um, but we met right here in Chicago at

1:12

the Brewery Accelerator event that we did downtown that

1:14

year. And, uh, you know, as we

1:16

normally do in the Brewery Accelerator, we do lightning

1:18

pitches that, you know, first night of the accelerator.

1:21

Tom and his art history pitch

1:23

won the lightning pitches that night, uh,

1:26

and won a full paid, they won some other stuff,

1:28

a full page ad and craft beer and brewing, a yeast

1:30

pitch and whatnot. And, you

1:32

know, and so we have been paying attention to what

1:34

was going on with art history. You guys opened up in 2020, uh,

1:37

have expanded. And then the craziest stuff

1:40

started happening. Like our writers, like K. Bernat

1:42

pitched me on a story about

1:45

art history. Um, you know, and it's

1:47

fun to watch and see these things come back,

1:49

things that I have not planted out there with folks. Um,

1:51

but that are right stories that our writers have brought, because you

1:54

all have made some waves out here

1:56

in the Chicago brewing world. Of course, Greg's got a long

1:58

history

1:59

here in the Chicago. Chicago land brewing and

2:01

this nice little web because,

2:04

you know, some other brewers that have trained under

2:06

Greg like Lane from Brewing

2:08

Table are also making their own waves here

2:10

in Chicago. And so the connections

2:12

are deep. Lots

2:14

of great lager brewing. And the coolest part

2:16

of it is that our history has been growing

2:19

over the last several years by

2:21

innovating, by making traditional

2:23

beers, innovating by making

2:25

lagers, innovating by making by working

2:28

out deals with Binney's to sell things

2:30

like ESB and Brown Ale in

2:32

a special series through this like, and

2:35

it is the coolest thing to think about innovation

2:37

is going back to a lot of these traditional

2:39

beer styles that need to be promoted, need

2:41

to be loved. And there is an audience

2:44

for if you just connect

2:46

them with folks. We're going to talk about lager

2:48

brewing through this. We're going to talk about making some of those traditional

2:50

style beers. We're going to talk about the art

2:52

history approach to making those beers.

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slash brewer.

4:15

Well, I want to dive into everybody's brewing

4:18

history because you all have separate

4:20

histories as well as a mutual history.

4:23

But Tom, why don't we start talking about

4:25

your own beer history and what drove

4:27

you and Cindy to launch Art History

4:29

Brewing?

4:31

I think we have to look back to

4:33

the late 80s when

4:37

growing up in Canada, we had access

4:39

to a lot of English style beers, but there

4:42

were a lot of controls in

4:44

home brewing. And what happened

4:47

was they relaxed the rules

4:49

and we got a chance to do a little bit more home brewing.

4:52

And I was always excited about styles

4:54

of beers that we get from Europe. We

4:59

tried a little bit of home brewing, but I could never make a good

5:01

beer that I could actually

5:04

buy from

5:07

a store or get poured on a tap

5:09

at a local pub.

5:11

So

5:13

over time, I gave up the home brewing and

5:16

just started drinking beers from around the world. I

5:18

was always a big fan, but the home brewing

5:21

thing kind of went in the background until probably

5:25

about 2014, a buddy of mine had a nice home brewing

5:27

system and got back into it and

5:30

realized that there's a lot

5:32

of progress that had been made in terms of what you

5:34

could do on a home brew system.

5:37

I got back into it myself with a home

5:39

brew system. And around the same time,

5:41

I found myself at the

5:43

short end of a corporate downsizing.

5:47

So I had to figure out what I wanted to do. And

5:49

then I think the bug was there and

5:53

I decided to think about getting

5:55

a formal education in brewing

5:57

at the time, thinking maybe I'd like to brew, but some

6:00

people advise me that if you're

6:02

going to get into brewing at this stage find

6:04

yourself the best brew you can run

6:07

the business and you know set up something

6:09

that was going to be successful with with a really good

6:11

commercial brewing program. So we

6:15

Cindy and I decided that we would get

6:17

into this business from a

6:20

business ownership perspective but I

6:22

did attend you know the Dohmann's

6:25

Sival Institute the International

6:28

Brewing Program and was

6:31

able to spend some time in Europe and

6:33

then rekindled that that

6:36

that taste for traditional European

6:39

lagers and and

6:41

that really drove the decision

6:43

that how we want to set up this brewery and

6:46

so the search was on about how

6:48

could we find the best brewer who could actually

6:51

make that happen and then I'll pass that on

6:53

to my colleague here.

6:55

That led to you Greg. Wow that's

6:58

a little up to that.

7:02

So I moved over here in 92 from

7:05

Australia

7:06

and I didn't like your

7:08

beer sorry so

7:11

I figured I could do better myself at home so

7:13

I started home brewing. There's a Monty Python line

7:15

around that right? Yeah probably.

7:18

So I started home brewing

7:21

and learning about beer and had

7:23

a friend who told me

7:26

that the map room was looking for someone

7:28

to teach at beer school so

7:30

I went down I did that I

7:32

did that for

7:33

just over 20 years. It was

7:36

at the map room that I met Nick Floyd

7:39

and he told me he was leaving to

7:42

open a brewery you might heard

7:44

of it it's called Three Floyds

7:46

and so I went to work

7:48

for Nick at the wine Keller Brewery

7:52

and he left to open

7:54

open his brewery.

7:57

Spent a little bit of time at the wine Keller.

8:00

Then I went to Seabowl, 96,

8:05

got out of Seabowl, started

8:07

working at Goose

8:09

Island, Fulton Street, production

8:11

brewery.

8:12

I worked with a couple of people there

8:15

you might have heard of, Jim Seaback and Beck Brunn

8:17

Wilson.

8:18

Yeah, those guys. Yeah, I've

8:20

always been surrounded by greatness.

8:23

So I worked

8:25

at

8:25

Fulton Street for...

8:27

Seaback for those who are brewmaster

8:30

for revolution and of course, Brinleton Firestone

8:33

Walker, just so everyone's clear.

8:35

Yep.

8:37

So I left Fulton Street

8:40

to work at a brew pub in Wrigleyville.

8:44

That was a little ahead of its time, so it lasted

8:46

about nine months. Worked

8:49

at a variety of brew pubs, pretty much exclusively

8:51

brew pubs since around 2000.

8:57

So yeah, I'm back at a packaging brewery after 25 years

9:00

and I got to relearn it all again. So

9:05

but yeah, I hooked up with Tom

9:07

and Cindy. They were opening a tap room and

9:09

I thought that was... Yeah, I was

9:12

happy. It's a tap room. I get to do whatever

9:14

styles I want and then

9:17

COVID hit and what

9:19

we got to sell this beer to somebody. So had

9:22

to transition into packaging

9:25

and luckily that took off. We

9:27

were at liquor stores, binnies, bars

9:30

and restaurants, liked the beer. So

9:33

yeah, that got us through.

9:36

And Tom and I were kind

9:38

of on the same page. You want to do the classic

9:40

styles, especially lagers. That's

9:43

what we were doing at the tap room

9:45

and

9:46

kind of seems like lagers maybe having

9:48

a little bit of a thing, especially here in Chicago.

9:52

So they decided to go

9:55

full steam here and open up a... Geneva

9:57

Lager works with packaging brewery.

9:59

went from a 10 barrel pub system

10:02

to now

10:17

half-assing

10:23

it mostly. So when we

10:25

decided to do this I'm like we have to do it the

10:27

right way. We have to do like a German style system

10:29

with four vessels,

10:32

horizontal lager tanks.

10:35

I didn't do the caution but I have a

10:37

steam heated mash mixer. I can do as many temperature

10:40

arrests as my heart desires.

10:42

So yeah I wanted

10:44

to do it right. I knew

10:47

that that would make a difference with

10:49

the lager.

10:50

Sure, sure. Well we will talk about some

10:52

of those difference makers. You've

10:54

had some very particulars in the

10:56

way that you've set up that brew house in order to brew

10:59

exactly the way that you want to do it. But Tom,

11:01

talk to me about the

11:03

focus of art history. In terms of styles,

11:06

I remember that lightning pitch a little bit. You were

11:08

talking about even then focusing

11:11

on some of these classic styles which really felt

11:13

in 2018 like it was

11:16

counter-trend. I think that might

11:18

have been one of those things that everybody kind

11:20

of like even if we wanted

11:22

to say is that really gonna work? Yeah there was

11:24

also something about it that felt like

11:27

maybe it was time that maybe that there

11:29

is some space for this. And of course

11:32

now you know we're absolutely seeing that

11:34

there is this lager renaissance between

11:37

you know dovetail and goldfinger.

11:39

You all I mean there's a you know there's

11:41

a whole bunch of fantastic and then you

11:43

know none of that phase three roaring table. Everybody's

11:46

a lot of folks are making great loggers

11:48

these days and I'm sure I'm leaving

11:50

people out and I apologize for that. But

11:53

nonetheless the competition is also really really

11:56

tight. So you have to make great

11:58

loggers in order to... to be able

12:00

to be noticed for making that. Talk

12:02

to me about coming up with this, because that's not all you

12:05

make, you also make some IPAs. You also

12:07

do feed the taproom with some, even

12:09

some hazy IPAs, West Coast IPAs.

12:12

Traditional beer might be the primary love and there

12:14

are multiple, you'll have a different German

12:17

style pills and there are different Czech style pills and there are on

12:19

at the same time. Helles,

12:22

dark lagers, all of this big spectrum

12:24

of lager. I don't know if you could talk to me about

12:26

developing that

12:28

beer plan for art history and what you wanted to

12:30

be known for and how you all went

12:32

around making that work.

12:35

I think it started when, took

12:38

a trip out to the East Coast and

12:41

we're on that classic journey

12:44

to visit alchemist

12:46

and tree house and trillium and

12:49

go and take a look at some of the best

12:52

of the hazy and the best of the

12:55

Northeast style that was really, really

12:58

hot in like 2017, 2018 and the original thought was, you

13:03

know, I really wanted to brew something

13:05

like that. Then we ended up at Jack's

13:07

Abbey and we started drinking some

13:09

of their lagers and what really

13:12

struck us was the, they

13:14

would take a base lager and they would do a single hop,

13:17

you know, version of it.

13:19

I remember tasting a Sabra hop for the first

13:21

time and their base lager and saying, you

13:23

know, there's something really unique that

13:25

you can, you know, lagers

13:27

don't have to be one dimension.

13:30

You can take a really nice solid

13:33

malt base and treat it with

13:36

a different hop, a different, even

13:39

different ABV and that

13:41

lightning pitch that I put together was really about,

13:44

you know, the lager tanks and

13:46

doing different sort of single hop and

13:48

different versions of lagers. I think that was the original

13:51

thought process and that

13:54

was before going to Europe and

13:56

then saying, well, there's something also really special

13:59

about, noble hops and the traditional

14:01

styles and the classic

14:05

hop varietals. So

14:08

coming back here, there is a period

14:11

of time where we said, well, we don't want to

14:13

give up on the IPA. We don't want to give up

14:15

on what people are drinking because as

14:18

a business, you have to attract

14:21

as many customers as possible. But there

14:23

was a space. There was a space for a lot of this. There

14:25

was a space for doing something special. And

14:28

so through a

14:30

common acquaintance, I've got

14:33

introduced to Greg. And we

14:35

had a phone call, a couple of emails. And

14:37

it really was, what sort

14:39

of classic styles do you like? And this was like,

14:42

I really like a northern German pill. So I said, that's kind of

14:44

my second favorite style. I really like a Czech

14:47

pale lager. He goes, that's my second favorite style.

14:50

And from that point on, I think we kind of knew that,

14:52

hey, if we could do this and

14:55

get the basics done and do it well, then I think

14:57

we can expand

15:00

and try other things. And we weren't thinking

15:02

about West Coast cold IPAs

15:04

at the time or anything

15:07

like that. But it was really about trying

15:09

to at least get the basics done. And

15:12

so I think Greg and I did 13 batches of

15:14

beer in

15:17

my garage in 2019. And

15:21

it was on a five gallon Blickman

15:24

system. And I had all this stuff. I

15:26

had the hop rocket. I had all this pumps

15:28

and all this stuff. And he looked at it and said, get rid of all

15:30

that. Just give me three vessels. Give

15:33

me some temperature control. And we'll

15:35

make the beer. And we got rid of everything

15:37

except the real basics. And show me process

15:39

was the key. And it

15:42

really didn't matter. The system is important

15:44

to a certain degree. But the process

15:46

was the key. So his last

15:49

batch of gravitas on the five gallon

15:52

Blickman system, we actually put a

15:54

six-stall of that as we were opening

15:56

the taproom. And it was gravitas.

15:59

And you could not tell the difference. difference between that Gravitas

16:01

and what he was brewing on the 10 barrel, you

16:04

know, commercial system that we had. And

16:06

that kind of said, okay, you know, I you know,

16:08

that that spoke to me in terms of, all right, we got this,

16:11

I think we can do this. Now the

16:13

first few beers we put out were a pale

16:15

ale and a West Coast IPA, which

16:18

is, you know, because they were the, you know, the quickest to brew,

16:20

but behind those came a,

16:22

you know, a Czech pale lager and a Northern German

16:24

Pilsner, which is what we really wanted to

16:27

go, you know, live with. And

16:29

that really was, I think,

16:31

the defining moment. It's okay, we

16:33

know what we want to do and how do we do

16:35

that on this on this cobbled together,

16:37

you know, 10 barrel pub system

16:40

with horizontal serving tanks behind the bar.

16:43

Not necessarily designed to brew

16:45

lagers on this small pub system, but

16:48

hey, you all make it work just like brewers everywhere

16:50

do. Use the equipment you have to make

16:52

the beers that you want and you find the ways

16:54

around the limitations of the equipment. It's

16:57

a story as old as time. Well, I want to talk,

17:00

you know, about that process of lager brewing

17:02

and how you all focus on that from

17:04

ingredients, creative inspiration through

17:06

that kind of, you know, technical process

17:09

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17:11

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asked. All right, let's talk about your

18:56

approach, the art history approach. Now,

18:58

you both agreed that German Pilsner

19:01

and Czech Pale Lager were going to be

19:03

the, you know, some kind of core

19:05

beers for art history. Where

19:08

did you go for the inspiration? Where did you then start?

19:10

How did you start building recipes from there, Greg? Well,

19:13

I guess I just went

19:15

back to, you know, the classic styles of

19:17

those beers.

19:19

And

19:20

before I started at art history, I had a little bit

19:22

of downtime. I went to the

19:24

Czech Republic. It was kind of

19:26

the last destination on my bucket

19:28

list.

19:31

Tried the Urkel there, fresh.

19:34

So when I got back, it was that flavor was fresh

19:37

in my mouth. The diacetyl?

19:39

Well, yeah. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just

19:42

kidding. Well, actually, at the brewery... You learned

19:44

a lot of it. You really do learn a lot. Yeah. At

19:46

the brewery, I didn't get any diacetyl. Okay. Prague,

19:48

that was a different story. It's true.

19:51

The Urkel at the brewery tour,

19:53

it's open fermented in the basement. Even

19:56

though they'll tell you, oh, it's just like our...

19:59

its own beer. It was one of the happiest moments

20:02

of my life getting that beer out of that tank.

20:06

So when we

20:08

were doing our pilot brewing,

20:10

I think one day we were brewing

20:13

our hazy IPA which uses a

20:16

lot of golden promise

20:18

and I tasted the word. I'm

20:20

like you know that really tastes kind of like an

20:22

o'keil sort of malt profile. So

20:26

when I was doing the Czech pale

20:28

lager recipe, the gravitas, I

20:31

thought about adding a little bit of golden

20:33

promise in there just to accentuate

20:35

that that malt character because we don't

20:37

do decoction here

20:39

on this brewery.

20:41

So I needed that malt.

20:44

So we add I think it's about 20% golden

20:46

promise and the rest is a bohemian pills

20:49

malt.

20:51

We use a hop

20:53

from Michigan. We use the zupa sauce.

20:55

We don't use the Czech sauce. It

20:57

has a little more fruit character to

20:59

it but it's a much higher alpha so you don't

21:02

have to use as much.

21:04

And to me I wanted to

21:06

use the o'keil yeast, the

21:08

authentic yeast, the

21:10

notorious diacetyl producer. So

21:13

I

21:14

get that. I think that's key. I

21:16

think that yeast, the only

21:18

way I can describe it is it to me it has a little bit

21:20

of a shortbread

21:22

sort of character to it.

21:24

It's just a very distinctive

21:26

flavor that you get from that Czech, that o'keil

21:28

yeast. And then

21:31

as far as the North German pills goes,

21:33

my favorite beer probably on the planet is Bitburger.

21:38

So I basically wanted to make a Bitburger.

21:41

So I use a very light colored malt.

21:44

Use tetaning, whatever

21:47

hops I use I guess. You say light colored malt, what do you mean?

21:50

It's best Heidelberg

21:53

and that's about a 0.8 to a 1.2 color. Really,

21:56

really light colored malt. Yeah, the hops

21:59

I think it's a secret

22:01

whatever Bitburg uses but

22:03

I use mostly tatning, a little

22:05

bit of pearl and

22:07

I'm looking for that nice dry

22:09

North German pills flavor with that

22:12

that bitterness but not

22:14

too much sweetness. That's

22:17

that's those are probably my two favorite beers so

22:20

that's kind of where I came from

22:23

to get those recipes.

22:25

I want to come back let's start to start with the Czech

22:27

Pilsner because I want to dig down on this a little bit.

22:30

I think it's interesting that you might blend two-row

22:32

in with Pilsner malt to build this

22:34

kind of idea of body in lieu of some

22:36

of the decoction that otherwise you might capture

22:39

that. I mean when Joe and I were

22:41

in the Czech Republic earlier this year everybody

22:45

heard it on the podcast. Brewers describe those their

22:47

beers as sweet. You won't find

22:49

a single American brewer who's gonna

22:51

call their Pilsner a sweet. Every

22:54

single Czech brewer will use the words they will use

22:56

the word sweet to describe their

22:58

beer that it has the sweetness to it

23:01

and that sweetness is the key to drinkability

23:04

the pizza most. Because these beers have heavy

23:09

hop loads they also have to

23:11

have this malt character that they call

23:13

sweet. We wouldn't I mean we're

23:15

in full pastry mode here in the United States and

23:18

so sweet has a whole different connotation

23:20

of beer here. But for that so I

23:22

think that's an interesting way to go about solving

23:27

that problem in lieu of decoction.

23:29

How did you develop the ratio

23:34

for this and how have

23:36

you tweaked that over time and how

23:38

do you really think about what

23:40

exactly that

23:42

malt character that Golden Promise does? Well

23:44

one thing I discovered I'd always wondered

23:47

how does Erkel get that color

23:50

just using Pilsner malt and it's

23:52

always when I get a Czech Pilsner somewhere

23:55

at a brewery and if it's not that color I'm

23:57

like that's not a Czech Pils. like

24:00

a German pills. You have to have that color I

24:02

think

24:03

to call it a check pills. But

24:05

when I was doing the tour of Urkel

24:08

on the wall they had this schematic,

24:10

you know like the generic schematic every brewery

24:13

kind of has and you know

24:15

they told us earlier on the tour that it's all

24:17

steam. Well, I was looking at the schematic

24:20

and underneath the the decoction

24:22

cooker there's

24:23

a little

24:24

pitch of a little flame. I'm like,

24:26

could that be real? Could they actually like use

24:29

fire like just this on this one vessel?

24:32

Just for the decoction. Just for the decoction and

24:35

I heard a lecture from the Urkel

24:38

brew, I might be right.

24:40

I think that's correct. I think that's how they do it. They

24:42

have this vessel with a direct

24:44

fire with a chain spinning

24:47

around at the bottom to prevent scorching

24:50

and that's how they develop that color and

24:52

also that sort of slight melanoid flavor.

24:56

And so the way I get that is to use

24:58

this golden promise. Just a little bit of this golden promise.

25:01

It's just sort of amplifies

25:03

the the malt character a little bit. Does

25:06

it give you enough of that melanoid

25:08

and you know kind of note then? It

25:11

wouldn't seem you know, just you know from the surface

25:14

that you know might be the same kind

25:16

of you know character. Probably not. Probably

25:19

not. I'm not trying to call you out on her. Unless

25:23

Tom and Cindy want to buy me a direct fire

25:25

cooker with a chain spinning around at the bottom.

25:29

But yeah, I think it's enough. It needs a direct

25:31

fire. But

25:33

there is that flavor in Urkel and

25:36

you're right. It is under attenuated. That's part

25:38

of the character of that. They want it under

25:40

attenuated.

25:41

But you've got to have that flavor.

25:43

I think that decoction also just locks

25:46

in some Unferminable.

25:50

Just because. Just through that process. And so

25:52

you know maybe I don't know if

25:54

I call it under attenuated as much as like if

25:56

there is just something that won't ever be able to attenuate.

25:59

You know it's that. weird thing where it strikes you at first

26:01

as a little bit sweet when you start

26:03

drinking it and then it creates that magical

26:06

dryness as it finishes. Exactly. Because

26:08

the beer is dry. Exactly. It just dries,

26:10

you know, it changes over time and

26:13

so it feels like as you start taking a sip

26:15

that, oh, this is delicious, you

26:17

know, an indulgent and then by the time you finish it, you're like,

26:19

oh, I need to take another sip. It's

26:21

a masterpiece and

26:23

one of the great things about being here in Geneva,

26:26

Illinois, and I was very

26:28

happy to hear this when I came on

26:30

board is the crazy thing is

26:32

the whole water supply of Geneva,

26:35

Illinois is RO water

26:38

and they just allow enough to

26:40

bleed back in to give it like the barest amount

26:43

of mineral content. So we have

26:45

super soft water here.

26:47

So you know, I'm

26:50

responsible for some of the quality of the beer. The

26:52

water is responsible for a lot of it. It's

26:55

just the perfect base to

26:57

make that style of beer. I mean, I

26:59

really don't do anything to it. I just add

27:01

a little bit of acid to

27:04

the pH but the water is just unbelievable

27:07

here and you go, you know, one town

27:09

either side of us in the water is horrible.

27:12

Yeah.

27:13

So yeah, we're very lucky in that

27:15

respect. Sure. Let's keep talking about

27:17

that check logger. You also want to keep

27:20

some body in the beer. You

27:22

know, is there anything particular to your mash? You

27:24

know, you're obviously going through a set mash process here.

27:27

You've also built here at Geneva logger

27:29

works. You've built a louder ton

27:32

with some dimensions that will specifically

27:35

allow you to mash and louder

27:37

in the way that you want to do it

27:39

to be gentle on these beers. Talk to me about

27:41

that. So I do, I'm

27:44

sure I'm pronouncing it completely

27:46

wrong, but I do a hook cut, which

27:49

means short and hot, which

27:51

is something I hadn't heard of up until

27:53

like five years ago. And I was doing some reading

27:55

and I started, you know, learning

27:58

about this, which.

28:00

It's sort of a German cheat

28:02

for decoction. It's

28:05

a two-step mash. You do a

28:07

it's about a C

28:12

up to about a 70 C. So what

28:15

would it be about a 147 up to about a 158?

28:20

So you do those two steps and you sort of maximize

28:22

your You know your beta rest

28:25

and your alpha limit is rest So

28:28

I do that and I was doing it at the taproom

28:30

brewery, but I was doing it just by Pumping

28:34

in hot water from the hot liquor

28:36

tank and kind of you know guesstimating it

28:39

Here I just push a button and the mash mix.

28:41

It doesn't automatically But

28:44

yeah, I want to you know, I want to

28:47

Hit all those all those numbers

28:49

and you know get as much Fast

28:53

move then between the two temperatures

28:55

Yeah, it's usually it's like 30 minutes at one

28:57

about a 20 minute raise and

29:00

then a 30 minute at the next one

29:03

What is the you know conceptually? What is that?

29:06

You know that mash regimen. What is the

29:08

intention? What does it do to duplicate or

29:10

replicate the idea of decoction?

29:13

I think just going through those temperatures So

29:17

with a classic decoction, I'm no expert

29:19

But you know you start kind of low

29:21

and then you use the decoction to

29:23

go through slow through all the temperature steps

29:27

this kind of Replicates

29:30

that in some way Is

29:32

you just

29:33

as you go through you hit all those all those temperature

29:35

points? Cool. Cool

29:39

Yeah, but then you also within your ladder

29:41

ton You've built an oversized ladder

29:43

ton not for the reason that a lot of brewers today

29:46

are doing it to make giant double IPAs

29:48

triple IPAs or Imperial

29:51

stouts, you know with Gigantic

29:54

mash bills, but so that you can maintain

29:56

a you know, a grain bed. That's

29:59

rather low

29:59

Right.

30:01

Yeah. So at the at the Taproom

30:03

Brewery we had two just

30:05

the classic two vessel system. It

30:08

was undersized for a 10 barrel

30:11

system. So the grain bed and the

30:13

combi mash louder was it's

30:15

probably like two feet deep for just a regular

30:18

12 plate or beer which you know you read

30:20

any good brewing text that's completely

30:23

you know wrong. So

30:25

over here we have

30:27

the nice oversized louder ton it's a 20 barrel

30:30

brewery the louder tons probably you

30:32

know for a 25 barrel brewery. So

30:35

the grain bed depth on a 12 plate

30:37

or beer is probably never more than a foot

30:39

deep

30:40

and

30:42

just the efficiency from the Taproom

30:44

Brewery moving over here jumped up like

30:48

10%. Yikes. Are there any other in addition to efficiency?

30:50

Are there any flavor

30:52

benefits in terms of like tannic

30:55

malt extraction or distracting

30:58

flavors that that more gentle mash

31:00

approach produces? Yeah.

31:02

I mean the

31:04

quicker you can get the the work through the

31:06

grain bed you know it that

31:10

probably cuts down on the amount of tannins you're

31:12

pulling through and

31:13

you

31:14

know you're obviously extracting

31:16

more work from the louder tons.

31:20

We don't have to run the rakes at all it pretty much

31:22

just you know

31:24

works its way through. Yeah.

31:27

So we've talked a little bit about the you know the

31:29

Czech pale lager. Let's talk a little bit about the you

31:31

know the northern German pills a little bit more.

31:34

You know similar mash regimen

31:37

on that. Now one imagines

31:40

all Pilsner malls just because it has

31:42

to be so light and so

31:45

focused. Right. So the the

31:47

North German pills that's pretty much

31:49

all German pills malt.

31:51

Nice light colored malt. Same

31:54

hook, kurt's regimen as

31:56

the Czech lager. I

31:58

just want a nice dry

31:59

dry character

32:03

to that beer. We

32:05

hop it with tatning and pearl

32:09

and I'm just looking for that nice clean bitterness

32:11

with that beer. Just super

32:14

cleanly, a little bit of malt sweetness

32:17

but I just love those

32:19

nice dry North German

32:21

pills. Sure. So what was it about that best?

32:24

Best Heidelberg. It's

32:28

a nice light color and

32:31

it also has like a little bit of a sweetness

32:33

to it. Both

32:36

of those things together it sounds unusual. Yeah,

32:38

it does but somehow it delivers.

32:40

But yeah,

32:42

I just love those beers. I was really drinkable

32:46

North German pills.

32:48

My first brewery stop when I ever

32:51

went to Germany was at Bitburg. Sure.

32:53

So you mentioned

32:56

using tatning hops. What's

32:59

the goal in this in terms of bitterness

33:01

but just but also hop flavor? Is

33:03

there a way that you might describe the

33:05

hop flavor that you're going for here?

33:07

I mean we can talk about it in generic

33:10

noble hop terms but they

33:12

definitely are different lanes that these hops fall

33:14

into. What's your goal for

33:17

yours? So I use a little bit of pearl

33:20

that kind of rounds the flavor out a little

33:22

bit and the tatning just brings this spicy

33:25

character to it. Just this beautiful clean

33:27

spicy character which is

33:29

you know what I really like about those styles

33:32

of beer.

33:32

It just comes in quickly,

33:35

delivers the bitterness

33:38

and then it's gone. It's not lingering. The

33:41

tatning is just a beautiful hop.

33:44

Why blends the pearl

33:46

in there too?

33:47

I just think that rounds it out a little

33:49

bit. Okay. And I think probably

33:51

those breweries up there probably use more than just

33:53

two hops but

33:57

I'm gonna keep it as simple as possible.

34:00

Just use those two and dial that

34:02

in.

34:02

Sure, sure. Is there anything else to

34:05

the German Pilsner that

34:07

you think is a real difference maker in your

34:10

process? Well, the big thing is,

34:12

of course, is the lagering, which we

34:15

couldn't really do. And we had

34:17

horizontal lagering tanks at the taproom, but

34:19

we were using the serving tanks.

34:22

So over here, we have

34:25

the horizontal lagering tanks.

34:28

And I was making the same beer

34:31

over there as I'm making here. And the

34:34

beers are definitely better. Just

34:36

from the lagering time, you

34:39

can really taste the difference. Yeah. When

34:42

you say that, what is it? What is the difference? To

34:45

me, I kind of compare it to the

34:47

old stereos had the graphic equalizer,

34:49

and it kind of cuts out the highs and the lows. To

34:52

me, that's what lagering does. It cuts out just

34:55

the highs and the lows, and everything's just right

34:57

down the middle.

34:59

And you just get a beautiful, clean flavor

35:01

to it. Just rounds everything out.

35:04

I was kind of a skeptic, but we put

35:06

them in any way. And when I tasted

35:08

the first beers out of here, I'm like, those Germans

35:10

are right. This is why they've been doing it for 500

35:13

years. They'll run to something

35:15

here.

35:16

So yeah, it's a thing.

35:18

In audio terms, it's a compressor, right? Oh,

35:21

OK. You

35:24

compress the highs and the lows.

35:27

But by narrowing down the band

35:29

of that audio frequency into

35:31

the middle, you can boost the impact. You

35:34

can boost the volume out of that. But

35:37

the compressor is actually the secret to radio

35:39

voice. Oh, thank you. It's that thing that

35:41

makes radio voice so rich. It's a trick

35:44

that we use when producing this very podcast. So

35:46

maybe you could say that we lager every episode

35:49

of this podcast before it comes out. Maybe

35:52

we shouldn't say that. Let's

35:54

talk about some of the other lagers you do. Also, some

35:56

of the smokeslagers you do, because in

35:59

fact, your highest. scoring beer with Craft Beer Brewing

36:01

was the Faustin beer, which scored

36:03

a 98 with the blind judges of Craft

36:05

Beer Brewing. So let's maybe switch gears, talk a little

36:07

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37:24

Let's talk about some of the other

37:27

lager styles that you brew. The

37:30

beer that's in our glasses now actually is

37:32

a beer where you have a, there's a recipe

37:34

for this beer in Craft Beer and

37:37

Brewing Magazine. It's

37:39

Veritas, it's a Czech

37:42

dark lager. That

37:44

recipe appeared alongside the Breakout Brewer story

37:47

a few years ago that Kate Bernat wrote on you.

37:49

She was inspired to write that story because you

37:51

all, I think she had your beer

37:54

at Hop Leaf and this is

37:56

actually the House Dark beer at Hop Leaf and

37:59

she pitched us on right away. a story about you. He's like,

38:01

oh yeah, yeah, I know art history. So

38:05

as you wrote the story, you all contributed to this. And

38:07

if you are a subscriber to Craft Beer and Brewing, you can

38:10

go on our digital

38:12

archives on the website and on the app

38:14

and dig up this recipe or search for

38:16

it on the website and make

38:19

your own version of it if you choose to. But let's

38:21

talk about this one, Greg. Talk about brewing dark

38:23

lager in the Czech vein. Again,

38:26

where was your inspiration and how did you

38:28

set about making this beer in a way that,

38:31

you know, because while it's dark and there

38:33

is a little bit of just a little bit of roast character,

38:35

which is definitely in line with some of the Czech

38:40

dark lager that we've had in the

38:42

Czechia. You have

38:44

to be very careful about brewing this

38:46

in a way to kind of maintain the balance that's expected

38:49

out of it. Talk to me about designing this Czech

38:51

dark lager.

38:52

So when I was in Prague,

38:55

one of my goals was to go to a

38:59

brew pub I'd been reading about for 20

39:01

years in the Michael Jackson books,

39:04

which was Ufleku.

39:06

Supposedly the oldest brew pub in the world. So

39:09

I was so excited

39:11

to go to this place. So I went

39:14

to Ufleku and I drank the beer and I'm

39:16

like, you know, it has almost sort of like a porter

39:18

quality to it. You know, it's not like

39:20

just getting a Czech

39:22

pale lager and adding some dark malt

39:25

to it. It's really a beer unto

39:27

itself.

39:28

And a fair amount of sweetness in the beer too. Yeah.

39:32

So I came back and I'm like, I want to make

39:34

that. I want to make the Ufleku version of

39:37

this beer.

39:38

And I have a book

39:40

that was written by Thomas

39:42

Wyman and Horst Donbusch. It's called

39:44

Brewing Dark Lager. And guess what? It's

39:46

about brewing dark lager. And

39:49

there's a recipe for

39:51

Ufleku beer in there. So I

39:54

basically use that to

39:56

start with, I'd say the only real

39:58

difference I use. floor-moulted

40:01

Bohemian dark malt.

40:03

I used the Zupisars

40:05

hops from Michigan because the hops

40:08

really not that

40:09

huge of a deal with this beer

40:12

but I did want to use the floor-moulted

40:15

Bohemian and I guess that comes

40:18

from a very traditional malt

40:21

house brewery in the Czech

40:23

Republic. So

40:25

yeah it's pretty much all

40:27

Czech and beautiful

40:30

Geneva water and

40:32

you know I've heard some

40:35

people say oh it's you know there's two

40:37

schools of thought I guess with this style it's

40:39

like either the kind of the Czech

40:42

dark which is just sort of a

40:44

very

40:46

light version I guess and then there's sort

40:48

of this heavier bodied version

40:51

I kind of prefer this but I think some people

40:53

are like well that's not really a Czech dark because it's it

40:55

tastes too roasty but you know there is

40:58

you know a background to it. When

41:02

we were drinking dark

41:04

lager in the Czech Republic we had

41:06

some that were even smoky you

41:08

know that the range again

41:11

there's there is always a range just

41:13

as there is in any file anywhere

41:16

saying that anything is one

41:18

thing it will be quickly disproven

41:20

by traveling to and visiting

41:23

a number of breweries you know that are all making

41:25

these things. There are as many different expressions

41:28

as there are breweries that make Czech dark lager

41:31

and like I said you know some actually have

41:33

a little bit of smoke character to them.

41:36

This is maybe not as sweet as the Ufletka

41:38

version. I thought that Ufletka's

41:40

version was almost like

41:42

a vaguely saccharin

41:45

sweet note on the very top of it.

41:47

You know that is not there

41:49

in this this is definitely maybe a touch more robust

41:52

in that sense where it's

41:54

supporting some of the sweetness with some of that flavor

41:56

but you know and then because

41:58

you're not decocting you're not having having to

42:01

go through some of the other questions,

42:04

some of the other issues with making a dark

42:06

beer using a de-hocked process

42:08

where you certainly don't want to cook

42:11

all these dark malts. But

42:14

you're also trying to leave a little bit of

42:16

that sweetness to kind of support

42:19

the haftiness beer. Talk to me a little bit about that.

42:22

Well, I just, I didn't really want a beer

42:24

that was, if you closed your eyes,

42:26

it would kind of just taste like a chickpea lager.

42:30

I wanted something that stood by

42:32

itself and had all

42:34

those notes to it. Like I said, to me,

42:37

the Ufliku is very sort of porter-like.

42:40

I mean, I don't know any of their fermentation

42:42

temperatures or their process,

42:45

but I really

42:47

wanted to get close to that and do

42:50

something that

42:51

kind of paid

42:53

tribute to that.

42:55

Sure, sure. And

42:57

in terms of sweetness,

43:00

where does this beer finish? This one's

43:02

about 3.4, so yeah, it's up there, yeah. And

43:08

the beer itself, it's a 12 degree?

43:10

It's a 12 degree, yeah. Yep,

43:13

we do the 12 degree varitas

43:18

and the holidays, we do a, it's

43:21

about a 14, Play-Doh, Check

43:24

Dark, Wenceslas

43:27

is the name of that one. We actually have that

43:29

lagering right now. So

43:32

that's sort of

43:33

our super-sized Check

43:36

Dark. Super-sized, 14%, like 5.5% ABV, right, right? And

43:42

it's a different flavor profile to this,

43:44

too. It doesn't have that. 6.4, oh, okay,

43:47

okay, well. It doesn't

43:49

have those roasty notes as much as this.

43:52

If you taste them side

43:54

by side, it's not like just a stronger version of

43:56

this. It's a different beer.

43:58

what's the intention

44:01

of that one then?

44:03

That

44:06

one I guess is just to have that extra alcohol

44:08

and maybe not be as roasty,

44:11

just be a little bit more of a warming

44:14

beer.

44:14

From a branding perspective,

44:17

it's kind of a holiday lager. So

44:20

really the package type

44:22

is really celebrating

44:25

the Christmas spirit, the

44:29

Saint, you know, Winslow's

44:32

and the red and green.

44:34

It's actually one of our most popular

44:37

beers. We brewed

44:39

the biggest batch of any beer we've ever brewed. We

44:42

actually had to split the batch.

44:44

We did some of it in lager works and some

44:46

of our history. The demand

44:49

of that beer is

44:51

actually very special for us in the holidays.

44:54

Fun, fun. Let's

44:55

talk about making smoked beer because they

44:57

were, as we were over at the tap room before we

44:59

walked over here to the lager works production brewery,

45:03

several, several, four, four

45:05

smoked beers on

45:08

the tap list. That's a bold

45:10

move.

45:11

So I think it starts with, in the summertime

45:14

we like to do a smoked halos. We

45:16

take the good morning Munich sort of,

45:19

you know, kind of starting point. And

45:22

correct me if I'm wrong, Greg, but we're

45:25

probably in that 12, 13% of

45:27

the malt build is smoked

45:30

malt. And that one is probably

45:32

just using your, you know,

45:34

bareman smoked, you know, beechwood smoked.

45:37

And then we kind of said, all right,

45:39

let's keep a couple of those because, you know,

45:42

we don't want to have, let Dovetail have all

45:44

the fun. And

45:46

they did kind of promote this October

45:49

as Rauk beer month and, you know, we're

45:51

all in. And so last year

45:53

we had two beers. We had the

45:56

Rauk beer, which is our Goodnight

45:58

Bomburg, which is about a... 40% or a

46:01

bigger beach with smoked,

46:03

it's a true rock beer. It's

46:06

very similar to what you would get in in Baumburg.

46:09

But then we did a smoked tober which

46:11

was a smoked wheat malt.

46:14

Right, the oak smoked wheat from from

46:16

Wyoming. Yeah and that was sort of taking

46:18

our fest beer and extending because

46:21

we would always sell through our our tober

46:23

fest beer you know towards the end of September

46:25

and we just want to keep going. So we would

46:28

release a secondary version of that fest beer

46:30

as a smoked version and carry that through

46:33

October. So now we have this oak

46:36

smoked wheat malt fest beer. We had this beechwood

46:39

smoked, some hellas that come in

46:42

the last you know vestiges of the summer. We

46:45

have the rauch beer and then just

46:48

for good measure we did

46:50

a smoked porter. So that was

46:52

cherry wood smoked porter and that was done by Carolyn

46:54

over at Art History and we

46:57

kind of add that to the mix and we said you

46:59

know if we're gonna do smoked we're gonna

47:01

do smoke and so all those beers are

47:03

pouring and they're actually

47:05

you know a very big percentage

47:08

of what we've been pouring in a tap room

47:10

all October. Really? Yeah. Just because

47:13

of October being smoked beer month. That's

47:15

right. Now we'd like to... Thank you

47:17

dovetail but you can't have all the fun you can't

47:19

have all the fun and we'd like to make it bigger but

47:21

you know there's like I think there's a top you know a

47:24

top limit to how much smoke beer you could

47:26

do so maybe you know four is might

47:28

be the limit but again fasten beer

47:31

which you earlier mentioned could be our

47:35

our Lenten smoke. So we're gonna

47:37

try to do something every season

47:40

so you know there'll always be a smoked beer

47:42

available. That's

47:43

fantastic. They had you know fasten

47:45

beer and lent beer on at Schlenkerla

47:48

when we were there in March this year obviously

47:50

because of because we were in the middle of Lent

47:53

and you know man I mean really

47:55

just a you know a beautiful slightly

47:58

larger version of the Merits and Just

48:01

slightly more alcohol and beautiful.

48:03

Nonetheless, let's talk about your approach.

48:06

Obviously, there are a variety

48:08

of approaches. If you look at it

48:10

in that traditional Bamberg way, those

48:14

brewers making their own smoked

48:16

malt can make it the way

48:18

they want to make it, so they're making 100% smoked malt beer.

48:22

I was talking about this earlier today with another

48:25

burb. When we are looking at it from the Vierman

48:27

standpoint, Vierman is designing smoked

48:29

malt, so that knowing that

48:31

it is going to be a specialty malt, that you are

48:34

adding into your recipe as

48:36

a specialty malt, in addition to base

48:38

malt. And so it has an intensity

48:40

generally to it that is there in

48:43

a way that is meant to be used in a different

48:45

kind of way than some of these other malts in

48:49

smoked beer. And that is gonna define the

48:51

way that you design a beer recipe

48:54

about this. So as you're thinking about

48:56

designing smoked beer, even a light smoked

48:58

beer, like a smoked Alice, how

49:00

do you start thinking about that, Greg?

49:03

And how do you work smoked malt into

49:05

that beer in order to keep that smoke

49:08

and balance in the right kind of way? Well,

49:10

when we first talked about doing a smoked beer,

49:13

Tom was like, well, let's do like 100% because

49:15

that's what Schlenkler does. And I'm like, well, you can't use 100%

49:18

because it'll be a pale beer.

49:20

If you're gonna make it the

49:22

same color, you're

49:24

gonna have to add some specialty malt. And

49:26

you're right, the process is completely

49:29

different from the way Schlenkler or Specciello

49:31

does it. It's part of their malting

49:33

process. They make 100%

49:36

of their malt exactly the right color,

49:38

their exact spec that they want it

49:40

to be with the exact right amount of smoke to

49:42

make their beers. Right, so when

49:45

you're doing it here,

49:47

you have to take into account that,

49:50

yeah, this has been processed

49:53

in a different way. So I think

49:56

the max I've ever done is about 60%. a

50:00

good. Still a good amount. Yeah. Yeah.

50:04

And you know, I like that,

50:07

but you have to sell the beer at the end of the day. So

50:11

yeah, we kind of dialed that back, but. And

50:13

smoked halas. What is, what does a gristo look

50:15

like for your smoked halas? Smoked halas, that's about 20%.

50:18

Yeah. The frosted beer. And it's

50:21

about 20% beech wood. Yeah. Fireman

50:23

beech wood. Yep. The frosted beer

50:25

was about 20% also. Because the

50:28

frosted beer and the halas are lighter beers,

50:30

the frosted is just, you know, I'm

50:33

claiming my beer is anything

50:34

as close to Schleichela.

50:36

But it's a medicine style beer. So

50:40

yeah, we just kind of want the hint, that sort of

50:42

background

50:43

flavor. Sure. And

50:45

with the smoked Toba Fest that we

50:47

did, it's only about 12%. So it

50:50

almost, the only smoked

50:52

sensation you really get is this sort of drying,

50:54

oaky, sort of barreley

50:57

flavor to it. I

51:01

love smoked beer. I mean, I've, by

51:04

the way, my favorite German city, you know,

51:06

I've been there multiple times and I just love drinking

51:09

that beer. And I think everybody here

51:11

should know about it. And

51:14

it's not for everybody, obviously, but.

51:16

Bamburg is amazing. Yeah. It's

51:19

amazing. And that beer is just so great. And even

51:21

the area, you know, the whole Franktonian

51:23

area is just beautiful. There's so many

51:25

great beers there. So

51:28

we just wanted to double down on it and, you

51:30

know, promote it in our own

51:32

small way.

51:34

Do you adjust any other parameters

51:36

to the Hellas? You know, do you, you

51:38

know, adjust any, you know, the kind of, you

51:40

know, finishing gravity or try to leave

51:43

a little bit of sweetness to balance out

51:45

some of that smoked character? Is there any, are there any other

51:48

parameters that change there other

51:51

than the smoked mall? No, it's pretty much

51:53

a regular Hellas. Our Hellas

51:55

is, you know, got a nice sweetness

51:58

to it anyway. So. It

52:01

works pretty well. Embracing sweetness

52:03

and halice, actually. Yeah.

52:07

Halice is one of the hardest beers to make. It

52:09

really is because you've got to

52:11

find that line

52:13

between hop flavor and

52:16

that sweetness and also make a drink of

52:18

all of

52:19

it. I tinkered with it for a while and

52:21

I thought I had it down and

52:23

we moved over here and I was lagging and I'm

52:25

like, this is really good.

52:27

I thought you could use

52:29

a little bit more mineral character because we have

52:31

that soft water. I added a little bit of

52:33

gypsum

52:34

and it's sent to bitterness way out

52:36

of spec and I'm like, this

52:38

is way too bitter. I had to dial that back in. One

52:41

little thing can really mess it up.

52:44

That's why I say it's a very difficult beer

52:47

to get right.

52:47

One of the keys to Halice though is that malt

52:50

character. I know

52:52

we've harped on this on the podcast in the past

52:54

but the idea that Halice is not a

52:58

minimalist beer. In the

53:00

German sense, no

53:02

one views it like it's not a crispy boy

53:04

in that sense. The way that American brewers

53:07

have started to think about Halice or

53:10

Pilsner, really, they're

53:12

not minimalist beers. The idea of Halice

53:15

is that it's a celebration of malt. How

53:17

do you embrace that kind of malt

53:19

character and as you say, some

53:21

of that malt sweetness because that's pretty

53:23

much key to the style. I

53:26

use the Bavarian

53:27

malt. Don't do the Dacogne.

53:30

Bavarian Pilsner malt? Bavarian Pilsner. I

53:32

don't do the Kogner. Is there a specific brand or

53:34

is it a brand or? What we use now is malt

53:37

Europe, all of your Bavarian Pils. I

53:40

use a little bit of honey malt

53:43

to give it a little bit more of

53:45

that melanoid sweetness.

53:53

I use Halitow

53:55

or Halitow

53:57

or the Lagering. I think Lagering is the key

53:59

to Halitow.

53:59

It just gives it that

54:02

flavor. And it's crazy.

54:05

There's five major breweries

54:08

in Munich making Halas and they're all a little

54:10

bit different.

54:11

Some have a little more hop character.

54:15

I like Augustina but you have the Aetos

54:18

stuff, Augustina Aetos stuff, but you also

54:20

have Augustina Volber,

54:22

which is a little more hoppier, which is actually what I

54:25

kind of prefer.

54:27

But

54:30

in one city you have this one style

54:32

of beer and there's a few different interpretations

54:35

of it. Sure. Do

54:38

we talk about yeast in this on the German

54:40

side? I know we talked about using

54:42

the Arquelle yeast on a Czech lager.

54:45

How about your German style lagers? Well,

54:48

I was using... It

54:50

was kind of crazy. I was using three different lager

54:52

strains at the tap room. I was using the Augustina

54:55

for the Halas. I was using dry 3470

54:58

for the Pilsner. I was

55:00

using the Arquelle yeast and

55:02

moving over here, I'm like, this is not sustainable.

55:05

I can't use three lager

55:07

yeast.

55:08

So I dropped the Augustina. I

55:11

miss it.

55:12

So we just

55:14

used the dry 3470 and

55:17

the Arquelle yeast over here.

55:20

That way we can repitch.

55:23

But yeah, maybe one day for a special

55:25

beer we'll get some Augustina in.

55:27

Sure. Sure. Well, and you can

55:30

use that 3470 to make IPA now too because anything

55:32

is possible. Apparently. Anything

55:35

is possible. Well, just like that. I've been around long enough

55:37

that I've seen some crazy stuff, but yeah,

55:39

the last few years have been really crazy. Sure.

55:43

Sure. Well, quickly we're starting to get

55:45

on in time here, but I do want to talk about some of

55:48

the approach to other classic styles. You've

55:51

got a, you know, Kask

55:53

Pore. You've got a, you know, a Kask engine in

55:55

the tap room. You all have been expanding

55:57

your Kask scales and leaning into it.

56:00

to building these traditional English

56:02

style beers. You've also been focusing

56:04

just on some of these styles

56:07

that maybe aren't

56:09

as cool or hip as some of

56:11

the haisiest and

56:14

pastriest of things today.

56:16

But in a weird way, it actually makes

56:19

you a little bit more, I wouldn't

56:21

say unique, but it gives you a focus

56:23

that people are attracted

56:26

to, retailers, as

56:29

you play this retail beer game, you're

56:31

always trying to find some way to

56:33

provide something to retailers

56:36

and then to consumers that not everyone

56:38

else is providing. And as certain

56:41

things have fallen out of favor, it might

56:43

create opportunity because there are still

56:45

drinkers that love those kinds of beers and just don't

56:47

get them in that way. And so Art History as a

56:49

brand is focusing in on how

56:52

to make excellent renditions of

56:54

some of these more traditional

56:57

styles. And you want people

56:59

to associate that with the Art History

57:01

brand. So let's talk about some

57:03

of the approach to English style traditional

57:06

beers. Talk to me a little bit about that, Tom. Okay, well,

57:08

and I'll start with,

57:10

we got our hands on an angry

57:12

mention through one

57:17

of our local breweries

57:19

that had sit-and-sit in the basement and Greg

57:22

said, I can do these. And so

57:25

we converted one of our temperature

57:27

controlled Kagerators to

57:31

allow us to put the engine

57:33

on it and put a cast breather and basically

57:36

start pouring beers from a firk

57:38

and pulling those from the engine. And

57:41

the first couple of beers, I think, were

57:44

interesting. We were just kind of playing around with it. But

57:47

then we realized that people

57:49

named Simon and Toby started showing up at

57:51

the brewery and ordering

57:53

these beers and like, okay, well, then

57:57

they were actually saying these are pretty

57:59

good. So we did. Yorkshire Best Bitter

58:02

called Dithering The

58:06

next day we put an ESB on and

58:08

someone else would come out. We've

58:16

developed this clientele at the Taproom

58:18

that would be looking forward to the

58:21

different styles. We

58:23

started acquiring Furkin's and we started building

58:26

a Furkin inventory. We

58:29

were doing all these at the Taproom. As

58:33

we moved to Lagerwerk's with the production side

58:35

of things, things got a little

58:37

serious. Now we're

58:39

looking at 20 barrel batches, putting

58:42

half of that into Furkin's, canning

58:45

most of it and only having a little bit of draft.

58:48

Really it's packaging and Furkin's.

58:53

We're seeing some of the customers

58:55

in Chicago maybe

58:57

dusting off some of the old engines that they had sitting

58:59

around. Maybe they stopped using 10, 15, 20 years ago. We've

59:03

got a couple of accounts that

59:07

have re-energized the whole

59:10

marketing and positioning of these. Next

59:13

thing you know, we get these Furkin's

59:15

into circulation. For

59:17

the first time in our history

59:20

since we've opened the Taproom three and a half years ago,

59:23

a cask beer was the number one

59:27

selling draft beer in the Taproom, beating

59:30

out Gravitas, which has been basically

59:33

our number one selling draft

59:35

beer off the Luecker in

59:38

the Taproom since we opened. Dithering

59:42

bitter, Yorkshire Best Bitter basically

59:45

became number one selling beer in the Taproom. We

59:48

got a second Enneagram engine. We're looking at maybe

59:51

expanding, having a couple of these

59:53

on. Now we're looking at different beers that

59:55

we brew that we can pull a couple

59:57

of Furkin's of this. We

1:00:00

have a couple customers saying, yeah, show us the

1:00:02

variety. And we see a couple of our

1:00:05

other breweries in the cities starting to do this. Some

1:00:08

may have been associated with Greg in the past, and some

1:00:11

maybe not. And

1:00:14

we're really excited about building

1:00:17

this Pub-Ail series and

1:00:19

having something available in a rotating fashion

1:00:22

with some of our customers. And

1:00:25

the taproom has really been the driving force

1:00:29

behind it. But I'll let Greg talk about how

1:00:32

he does this, because these

1:00:35

are beers that

1:00:36

are

1:00:37

very different from anything else we brew. But

1:00:40

they are on brand,

1:00:43

they're traditional, they're authentic,

1:00:46

and people know that.

1:00:49

I'm here for the Cask beer Renaissance. Greg.

1:00:53

I never thought I'd left to say that one. You

1:00:55

know, every few years, we

1:00:58

run a little feature package on Caskale just to

1:01:00

remind people it's still there. We've got

1:01:02

to bring it back. And I joke about

1:01:04

this. But eventually we'll get

1:01:06

it right, and eventually it'll be at the front

1:01:08

end of a new trend. And we'll have been there. Even

1:01:11

though we've been there recycling, not recycling,

1:01:14

but revisiting the topic

1:01:16

every few years, just because you've

1:01:18

got to plant those

1:01:19

seeds, right? When it's the cover story, I really

1:01:22

believe it.

1:01:23

But we've put Caskale on the cover

1:01:25

in the past. I mean, we're a wonky

1:01:27

beer magazine for brewers. We can get

1:01:29

away with that, and some other people can't. But

1:01:32

let's talk about how you said about

1:01:35

designing a proper

1:01:37

Caskale.

1:01:40

Well, to be honest, I've been doing it. Every

1:01:42

brewery I've worked at in the last 20 years, I've

1:01:44

had real ale. There's been a hand

1:01:46

pump, and mostly I've been banging my head

1:01:48

against the wall, trying

1:01:50

to explain it to people. But

1:01:53

like Tom said, a lot

1:01:56

of expats coming in and drinking it,

1:01:58

and if you could please.

1:01:59

those guys, especially the Yorkshireman,

1:02:02

you know you're doing a good job.

1:02:03

So it comes down to ingredients, you

1:02:05

know, just English malt,

1:02:07

English yeast. We use about three

1:02:10

different

1:02:11

English ale strains,

1:02:13

depending on the region we're trying

1:02:16

to, the beer we're trying to make. Source

1:02:19

our English hops direct from England.

1:02:22

That's so you're, you're dialing

1:02:24

in yeast to the region. Yeah. It's yeast

1:02:26

is a big part of the, the character

1:02:28

of those beers. How different are these, these

1:02:31

three yeasts that you use? Well, so

1:02:34

that we use one from the Midlands.

1:02:37

Uh, so that's for, we make a mild, like a dark

1:02:39

mild.

1:02:40

Uh, and that sort of has a little bit

1:02:42

of a minerally quality to it.

1:02:45

Uh, we use one that's

1:02:47

from. Is there, is that a yeast that people

1:02:49

can get?

1:02:51

Not that one. Oh no. No.

1:02:54

Uh, I think it's me and roaring table.

1:02:56

Pretty much the only ones that have that. How do you

1:02:59

have a yeast, an exclusive Midlands,

1:03:02

uh, logger, uh, ale yeast? I had a

1:03:04

friend smuggle some back from a, from

1:03:06

a brewery here. Uh,

1:03:08

Yorkshire. Okay. Okay. That's

1:03:10

a good story though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh,

1:03:13

the Yorkshire one, uh,

1:03:15

Omega sells it

1:03:17

and that's the, the, the beers

1:03:19

in Yorkshire, the Northern pints, they sort of accent

1:03:22

the malt a little bit more. Uh,

1:03:25

so that's sort of a more of a malt driven

1:03:28

flavor profile. And in

1:03:30

the North,

1:03:31

typically they'll use a sparkler on the

1:03:33

engine. So that's, that's what we do.

1:03:35

Uh, and those are

1:03:37

generally not as conditioned as much

1:03:40

as the sort of more of your London

1:03:42

style. So when we do a London style ale

1:03:45

would typically use like the fullers, the 1968 yeast.

1:03:48

Uh, again,

1:03:50

that's a little, little drier accents

1:03:52

hop. Flavor

1:03:54

a little bit more. Uh,

1:03:56

and we don't use the sparkler. So we conditioned

1:03:58

the, the Perkins. little bit more for

1:04:01

those.

1:04:03

What's the sparkler do in that scenario? The sparkler,

1:04:06

it's it's it's it almost nitrogenates

1:04:08

the beer so you're forcing the beer through those

1:04:10

little little holes right sparkler

1:04:12

and just all the all the gas just breaks

1:04:15

out and has that looks like a Guinness cascading.

1:04:17

Sure. I think a big part of why it sells

1:04:19

at the taproom is the engine is right there

1:04:22

in front of the customers and

1:04:24

they see this beautiful show and

1:04:26

they're like well what is that and then you know they see the bartender

1:04:29

pulling on the engine so

1:04:31

it's all you know it's actually you know it's kind of a show

1:04:34

and

1:04:34

they want to try it.

1:04:36

Yeah and and you know those

1:04:38

beers because it breaks out so

1:04:40

much of the carbonation through the pouring process

1:04:43

end up a little bit softer and a little bit sweeter

1:04:45

and you know those

1:04:47

are attractive beers especially if you

1:04:49

know in this current day and age where you know

1:04:52

bitey you know heavy co2 beers

1:04:54

yeah I can feel pretty aggressive to some

1:04:56

folks. Yeah they're the kind of the anti-hazy

1:04:59

IPA because they're clear well they should

1:05:01

be clear

1:05:02

and they're usually you know

1:05:04

around four or below percent

1:05:07

alcohol

1:05:08

and they're drinkable I mean English

1:05:10

they sit in pubs they want to have beer that can drink

1:05:13

I don't have any pints of hazy

1:05:15

IPA you could drink.

1:05:17

Depends on how you personally I don't know but

1:05:20

yeah I've had some good ones

1:05:22

over the last couple weeks. It should be a drink it should be

1:05:25

a drinkable beer so

1:05:27

yeah it's it's and you

1:05:29

know it's I think we go through a fork in a week

1:05:32

maybe which is pretty good and

1:05:34

you

1:05:35

know it keeps it fresh

1:05:36

so yeah. Are there any other secrets that

1:05:39

that you found to making really good

1:05:42

caskill? It's a lot of

1:05:44

work especially when you're doing

1:05:47

filling the cast and you're priming

1:05:49

and you know you've added the findings

1:05:52

and you're dealing with the cast

1:05:54

you know it's probably a lot more work than a lot

1:05:56

of people want to deal with and then if you send it

1:05:59

out

1:05:59

which we do, we only send it

1:06:01

to accounts that we know what they're doing. This

1:06:06

is probably why it's not that big

1:06:08

a thing, it's because a lot of times it's not good.

1:06:11

It's not done properly. So yeah,

1:06:13

it's a lot of extra work.

1:06:15

It's a labor of love. Yeah,

1:06:18

the cleaning side is on their whole

1:06:20

side of things. Yeah. Some of

1:06:22

these furkins come back and I don't

1:06:24

know what they're putting them. I don't know, what

1:06:26

did you put them on? Well,

1:06:30

you know, I always say just because there's, just

1:06:33

because that bun hole is like two inches

1:06:35

wide doesn't mean you can throw like a

1:06:37

fruit there. It's

1:06:40

not why it's like that. Okay,

1:06:44

so hopefully they're not adding their own adjuncts

1:06:46

to your English ale

1:06:48

furkins or whatnot. Anyway,

1:06:51

nonetheless, well, we've been talking for a little bit

1:06:53

while, for a while now. Let's, let's

1:06:56

zoom out a little bit. You

1:06:58

know, you all opened Tom in the

1:07:00

midst of the pandemic in 2020. A

1:07:03

couple of years in, you find

1:07:05

this success making traditional styles, making

1:07:08

a lot of lager. You decide to

1:07:10

expand. You open up Geneva lager works

1:07:12

here, production brewery, the same

1:07:14

town as the taproom brewery with

1:07:16

this big focus on expanding on lagers.

1:07:19

Now you are in an aggressive

1:07:21

growth push. You've got salespeople

1:07:24

selling art history beer. You've got some key

1:07:26

accounts at some really truly

1:07:28

world-class influential beer bars like

1:07:30

Hopleaf, Beer

1:07:33

Temple, others here in Chicago

1:07:36

amongst those that know beer. They're

1:07:38

embracing your beer and, you

1:07:41

know, and also telling a great story about quality,

1:07:44

you know, for art history. What's

1:07:46

next? What do you hope to achieve over the

1:07:48

next five years? You know, what, where

1:07:51

do you see art history going? Where do you hope this

1:07:53

is when we continue

1:07:55

to talk? And I come back to you five

1:07:57

years from now. What will you have hoped for?

1:07:59

to achieve by then.

1:08:01

I think one of the first things that we started thinking about-

1:08:04

We are five years since we first met.

1:08:06

Yes, right. What's the next five years? Well,

1:08:10

I won't be retired that's for sure. So

1:08:13

I think that what we're

1:08:16

experiencing now is the

1:08:21

we went in a lot of different directions especially

1:08:23

with having two breweries we have a 10 barrel system we

1:08:25

have a 20 barrel production system so

1:08:28

we've been able to kind of spread

1:08:30

our wings a little bit we've done things

1:08:32

like fruited sours and West

1:08:35

Coast you know you know we've

1:08:38

done cold IPA I mean we're trying a lot of different

1:08:40

things but in the end I think what it's gonna

1:08:42

come down to is we're

1:08:44

gonna we're gonna find that there's probably a

1:08:46

core I don't want to use the term

1:08:49

you know lose like flagship

1:08:52

but I think there's got to be a return to the flagship

1:08:54

styles the flagship beers that you know

1:08:56

people are going to are

1:08:58

going to stick with and buy

1:09:01

and and and want to see all

1:09:03

the time so I think our move in

1:09:06

the next 12 months at least maybe 18

1:09:08

months is to move from

1:09:12

trying to do everything and testing waters in a lot different

1:09:15

areas to finding out hey these

1:09:17

are the beers that really work these are the beers that our customers

1:09:19

want from us and they're willing to you

1:09:21

know come back and buy

1:09:23

and I think that you know a

1:09:25

little more focus on on those beers so I

1:09:28

think that the production system that we're building

1:09:30

here at Lagerwerk is going to be

1:09:33

focused on that

1:09:34

and producing more of

1:09:37

the beers that not only

1:09:39

our customers want but our sales reps

1:09:41

are now telling us hey if

1:09:44

you had more of this it was always

1:09:46

available this is always going to be something

1:09:48

that our customers will always want to

1:09:50

have in stock so I think that's kind of

1:09:52

the focus is we're

1:09:54

moving away from a taproom focus the

1:09:56

taproom is great if people can come in they can try different

1:09:59

things And we're

1:10:01

in Geneva for an hour and

1:10:03

plus outside of Chicago. Well,

1:10:06

I know Yes

1:10:09

from Chicago from the Ogilvy Transit

1:10:11

Center Yeah, but you right,

1:10:13

you know, it's not a place where you just end up right

1:10:16

and and and we're in a breweries right here in

1:10:18

Geneva There are 10 roads right over

1:10:20

here river lands is over here, too.

1:10:22

Yes. We've got sturdy shelter just opened

1:10:25

up in Batavia We are

1:10:27

surrounded I think by nine or ten

1:10:29

breweries from North Aurora

1:10:31

to to St. Charles

1:10:33

to Elburn and It's

1:10:36

a competitive sort of taproom

1:10:39

market So, you know rather than

1:10:41

try to be everything to everybody I think

1:10:43

the taproom is going to end up being a place we

1:10:45

can come in and then try our beer since

1:10:47

could be beer focused as opposed to hot

1:10:49

yoga focused and I

1:10:52

think that's the on the taproom side but

1:10:54

on the production side Get down to

1:10:56

a we're gonna be reliable for

1:10:58

producing the beers you love Maybe

1:11:01

not everything but a really super

1:11:03

core of beers you love and it'll

1:11:06

always be available and try to make sure

1:11:08

that When we're going to the market like

1:11:10

Chicago, which is a huge beer market and

1:11:13

a lot of opportunity but Balancing

1:11:16

variety versus consistency

1:11:18

and I think that's really our biggest

1:11:20

challenge From a production

1:11:23

side and from a sales and distribution side

1:11:25

Well,

1:11:26

I can't wait to talk to you in five years and see

1:11:28

how this is all working out because the beers

1:11:30

now are fantastic And it's great to get

1:11:32

out here and see what you all have built and now

1:11:34

both of these locations Out

1:11:37

here in Geneva and that is

1:11:39

a great place to bring this to a close G&E

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1:12:39

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1:12:47

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1:12:50

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1:12:52

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1:12:55

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1:12:58

that Greg has written up for a homebrew

1:13:00

scale for you brewers out

1:13:03

there. Tom, Greg, if people

1:13:05

want to learn more about Art History,

1:13:08

whether it's in real life, whether it's out there

1:13:11

on the internet, whether it's finding it

1:13:13

at a local retailer, how do

1:13:15

they find you all? Arthistorybrewing.com

1:13:18

is a website. We're also on social media

1:13:20

with Art History Brewing, Twitter,

1:13:23

Art History Brew One and basically

1:13:27

reach out and give us

1:13:30

a shout out on social media and we'd be

1:13:32

more than happy to engage and tell you a little bit about what's

1:13:34

going on and what we're doing.

1:13:36

Appreciate you both talking to us about

1:13:38

how you brew lager. Cheers! No

1:13:41

problem, thank you. Cheers!

1:13:48

This podcast has been brought to you by Craft Beer and Brewing Magazine for

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