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This podcast is brought to you by Craft Beer and Brewing

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Magazine for those that love to make and drink great

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beer. To learn more or to subscribe, visit beerandbrewing.com

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or find us on social media at Craft

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Beer Brew.

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It's episode 330 of the Craft

0:24

Beer Brewing Podcast. And in this second

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of our two-part series of Best

0:29

in Beer 2023 podcasts, I am joined by

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each of the five writers who shared their personal

0:35

top tens of the year in our Best in Beer issue,

0:37

which is out now, from contributing

0:39

editor Kate Burnot and managing editor Joe Stang

0:41

to New York-based writer Courtney Isman, Southern

0:44

California beer humorist Alex Kidd,

0:47

and the renowned author and

0:49

pastry beer fanatic sitting across from me

0:51

now, Stan Hieronymus. Welcome

0:53

back to the podcast, Stan. It's

0:56

always great to be here, although I think

0:58

you're going to explain what here means for

1:00

us. Here. Here's a different

1:02

place than we've ever recorded a podcast before.

1:05

Certainly you and me, and we've recorded this segment

1:08

in past years. This is the third time that we've done a segment

1:10

on the critics list. We did in our office a couple

1:12

of years ago. We met up in Niagara on a

1:14

snowy day at Fritz Family Brewers last

1:17

year and recorded this.

1:18

But for this one, we decided

1:20

to just record it in Mexico. And

1:22

it was a fun trip down. It is

1:25

still a fun trip down. It's a trip in

1:27

progress. We're recording this after,

1:30

or in Mexicali, Mexico, where we both judged

1:32

for the past couple of days at the Copa Baja Mexicali

1:35

alongside an all-star crew of

1:37

American and Mexican brewers and beer

1:39

judges. It really was a killer, killer

1:41

crew of people down here. Yes. Yeah.

1:44

They've gone out of

1:45

their way. Their thinking is they want to have people who

1:48

will be frank about the quality of their beer

1:50

and that's a way to make their beer better. Overall,

1:54

on average, the average beer was

1:56

better than last year. The best beers were better

1:58

than the best beers. Unfortunately,

2:01

the worst beers are still the worst beers. It's

2:03

pretty typical for a competition.

2:05

But it was also fun to sit shoulder to shoulder

2:08

with some great Mexican brewers

2:10

and judge together and also

2:12

help understand these beers together. Understanding

2:15

new spices. Of course, we judged yesterday two categories together,

2:18

wood smoked and historical beer

2:21

and then some spiced beer. Of

2:23

course, we got a lesson in Mexican

2:26

spices from our Mexican judge

2:28

partners, which was a hugely

2:30

educational and eye opening and a lot of

2:32

fun. We'll talk a little bit more about that as we

2:34

walk through Stan's critics list later in the episode.

2:37

But first, a little explanation about these lists,

2:39

the motivation behind them. In a broad

2:41

sense, we firmly believe that any

2:44

concept of best, you know, so we create a best

2:46

issue. Any concept of best is very relative,

2:49

contextual, constantly changing and

2:51

constantly evolving. It's always a

2:53

moving target. All of us

2:56

exhibit our own local, regional and national

2:58

biases. It's incredibly important

3:00

for all of us to broaden our horizons

3:03

and try to think about beer, craft beer

3:05

in as expansive a way as

3:07

possible. And that's why within our

3:09

approach to the best beer issue, we have three components

3:12

of it. That's our editor's picks for the 20 best

3:14

beers of the year. That's based primarily

3:16

on our blind reviewing, almost always, actually

3:19

entirely on our blind reviewing process, both

3:22

the judge scores throughout the year in the magazine

3:24

as well as our kind of wild card taste

3:27

in process for the best in beer

3:29

issue itself. All of that is

3:31

blind review based and taste based, you

3:34

know, and depends on the beers that

3:36

breweries send us throughout the year. The

3:39

second component is our reader's choice list

3:41

that are made up from the thousands of responses to our

3:43

annual reader survey that

3:46

readers and listeners out there submit to us.

3:48

That is the popularity contest, the components

3:51

of the competition, right? But

3:54

also an interesting one to gauge the tether on things

3:56

and also understand how trends change. We asked about

3:58

packaging formats. It's been amazing to watch. What's about

4:00

styles and so it's an interesting way to

4:02

kind of track consumer sentiment here over here Also

4:05

a valuable way to think about best the third part

4:07

of it Which we also really love is

4:09

tapping into brains of folks that

4:12

are paid to pay attention to What's

4:14

going on in this broad world of beer and

4:16

that's these these critics lists So we've tapped

4:18

into the judges I mentioned earlier to

4:20

write about their 10 as well as top

4:22

trends and some other questions that we post Oh, all

4:25

those are in the best of your issue now, of course if you're

4:27

of course, you're a subscriber And so you've probably read

4:29

them But the point of

4:31

this episode of the podcast is to kind of dive

4:33

in and add some color around that and also just to Have

4:36

an excuse to talk to some smart folk and get

4:38

them on the podcast every year You

4:41

know because I look forward to that too Nonetheless,

4:44

you know these we try to you know tap

4:47

into folks that are from all over the country All the

4:49

corners of the world of course chose in Bangkok

4:51

Thailand and brings his own special

4:53

perspective to that This

4:55

the folks of this episode throughout the course of it I'll check

4:57

in with each one of them will talk through their favorite beers trends

5:00

and more to help build those You know big round picture

5:02

of what's great and beer today? Stand

5:05

anymore. Wait a minute to talk about your

5:07

list will instead kick things off with

5:09

Kate We're not but before we do that

5:12

for years G and D chillers has chilled the beers

5:14

You love partnering with 3,000 plus breweries

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across the country. They're proud of the

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cool partnerships. They've built over the past 30 years

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5:25

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5:27

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5:30

and support your brewery will never stop remote

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you with the peace of mind Your operation

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is running smoothly reach out for a quote today

5:41

at GD chillers calm or call to discuss

5:44

your next project Also this episode

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sponsored by BSG and their partners HVG

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learn more at oldorchard.com slash

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brewer. Now, here's my conversation

6:30

with Kate.

6:42

First up in our critics list, joining

6:44

us to share her best 10 beers

6:47

of the year as well as some memorable experiences

6:49

and trends, Kate Bernat, contributing

6:51

editor for Craft Beer & Brewing. Welcome back to the

6:53

podcast, Kate.

6:55

Thank you, this is one of my favorite

6:57

things we do all year, so I really look forward

6:59

to it. Thanks for having me back.

7:01

I've got a lot, we've had a lot of Kate experience,

7:03

you know, last month, I guess it was the

7:06

last month, yeah, well, I guess it was about

7:08

six weeks ago, you came up to the Craft

7:10

Beer & Brewing office for a couple

7:12

of days of Best in Beer judging alongside

7:15

Stan Hieronymus, Joe, me, and then our

7:17

special guest judge, Patrick Dawson on Tuesday.

7:20

And then I just saw you a couple of days ago at

7:22

the Festival of Barrel-Aged Beers, FOBAB, in

7:24

Chicago. How was your FOBAB?

7:27

FOBAB was excellent.

7:30

I realized my first FOBAB I ever

7:32

went to was in 2012 when I was still living in

7:34

Chicago, and it was in the Plumbers

7:36

Union Hall, and brewers

7:38

just kind of had like cardboard signs that

7:41

said like, Chili Stout. And

7:43

it was like very DIY

7:46

and very small and niche and nerdy,

7:48

and to see it become so popular

7:51

and so kind of reaching mainstream

7:54

drinkers, and to see all these

7:56

out-of-state breweries now, it was really

7:59

amazing how much it's...

7:59

grown in a decade. That was a fun time.

8:02

That was my first time at PhoBab for the last 10

8:04

years of craft remembering. I was like, you know, this is

8:06

going to be the year I go. And then it never was.

8:08

And this year I finally lined up enough

8:10

podcasts to make me make

8:12

the trip. And so actually all podcasts,

8:15

almost all with lager brewers, strangely enough. Love

8:18

that. Which listeners to the podcast have already

8:20

heard one and we've got a few more coming down the pipeline.

8:23

Won't ruin that surprise for anybody. But

8:25

it was fun to see it. So much passion and love

8:27

for barrel aged beers, everything. I

8:29

mean, some of my favorite beers were small, 5% pale

8:32

barrel aged beers and not necessarily

8:35

giant high gravity behemoths. But

8:38

fun to dive into that entire spectrum.

8:40

Yeah, 100%. When I talked to

8:42

attendees, most people were obviously

8:45

very memorable, these big, oh, did you

8:48

have the one with banana? Did you have the one with macadamia nuts?

8:51

But then the longest line

8:53

I stood in was in the lager lounge. So

8:56

do with that what you will.

8:57

That's brewers,

8:59

isn't it? Always the brewers clogging

9:01

up the line in the lager lounge. Anyway,

9:04

let's dive into your top 10, your

9:06

favorite beers of this past year. What

9:08

is first on your list?

9:10

First on my list was a beer I had when

9:13

traveling to San Carlos de

9:15

Barre Loche in Argentina and

9:18

the Wesley American Pale Ale. I had it

9:20

at the brewery and I was

9:23

in love with it. And I thought, well, you're just in a beautiful

9:25

place and you went for a hike. So you're

9:28

just loving this beer. No, I went back multiple

9:31

times to make sure this beer was as good

9:33

as I had initially thought. And

9:35

it sure was. Very

9:38

sweet fruit aromas and flavors,

9:41

but not overly sweet on the

9:43

palate. Just a really beautiful

9:45

expression of honeysuckle

9:47

and apricot and

9:48

floral citrus.

9:51

But with just the right kind

9:53

of Wonder Bready malts underneath

9:55

it. I thought dang, any brewery

9:58

in America would be too. super proud to brew this

10:01

beer and I drank a lot of it while

10:03

I was there.

10:04

That's amazing. You know, we ran into, Joe and I ran

10:06

into a number of American pale ales on menus

10:08

in the Czech Republic of all places. There you

10:10

go. Kind of wild to see this American

10:13

style, you know, take off. But

10:15

I think it hits a narrative which I absolutely

10:17

love, which is, you know, inspiration and beer

10:20

moves in all directions today. Absolutely.

10:23

You know, for the first 20, 30 years

10:25

of craft beer, it was moving from Northern

10:27

Europe to Asia, and

10:30

now the direction is moving in every

10:32

direction from America to America,

10:35

from Asia, you know, to America, from

10:37

Asia to Europe, you know, in the way

10:39

of, you know, Japanese blends

10:42

of lamp. I mean, there's just watching

10:44

this move in so many different directions, South

10:47

America to North America, South America

10:49

to Europe, you know, this kind

10:51

of truly international approach and

10:54

watching this inspiration and these styles,

10:57

you know, crisscross oceans and continents.

11:00

It's truly an awesome, amazing thing. Yeah.

11:02

I couldn't believe how great some

11:04

of the beers were that I had at literally the end

11:06

of the world in South

11:07

America. That's amazing.

11:09

That's amazing. So what's next on your list?

11:11

Next on my list is a beer

11:14

from Keeping Together called A Mutual

11:17

Surrender. And I love,

11:21

I know you do too. We love the

11:23

beers that Avery is making.

11:25

Everyone will hear this

11:27

after our best in beer issue drops.

11:29

And so they know that Avery has also

11:31

made our best in beer, best 20

11:34

beers of 2023.

11:35

Correct. Yeah. So yeah,

11:38

not shocking that she finds her way onto my list

11:40

as well. But she calls this beer a Cezanne Rose.

11:43

And to me, it was like

11:46

a sort of a spritzer

11:48

effect. It was very fizzy

11:51

and jammy plum notes from the

11:53

second use Cab Franc and Merlot grapes

11:56

from Walla Walla. But the Tannic

11:58

presence was really... reduced I think because

12:01

of that second use. So just this very

12:03

effervescent, light, kind of electric,

12:07

insanely refreshing, yet

12:09

still quite complex beer and

12:11

you know, all of Avery's beers are really inspired

12:14

by memories and places and whatever

12:16

place this came from, like I want to go there

12:18

immediately and just live in it forever. So highly

12:22

memorable. Next on your list is an IPA.

12:25

Yes. And an IPA

12:27

that I bought at Trader

12:30

Joe's in Spokane, Washington. What a time

12:32

to be alive.

12:34

Off of a warm shelf at Trader Joe's.

12:37

Off of, yeah, I guess off

12:39

of a warm shelf at Trader Joe's, my God.

12:42

I love Trader Joe's but I hate that about

12:44

Trader Joe's. They don't, you know, they

12:46

could do a better job with how they treat beer.

12:48

Absolutely. And yet this still tasted so

12:50

good. So this is the Bailbreaker Friends IPA,

12:54

which is a collaboration with Sierra

12:56

Nevada and it is

12:58

a combination of New Zealand and

13:01

American hops. And I sometimes

13:03

I find New Zealand hops, especially

13:06

if the brewery is like really calling

13:08

them out. Like sometimes it's just, it's

13:11

just a bit much and a little bit, I don't know, kind of

13:13

one note unless you're blending it really well. And here, incredible,

13:16

like lemongrass, candied

13:19

orange, all the of course, like Sauvignon

13:21

Blanc notes that you would expect. But

13:23

then there was like even fruit smoothie

13:26

flavors at the end that

13:28

were so real fruit like.

13:32

Yeah, this beer totally blew me away. I bought it off

13:34

a warm shelf for I think just like a camping

13:37

trip or something. And I was like, holy crap, is

13:39

this one of the best beers I've had this year? So

13:41

again, good beer

13:44

abounds and sometimes finds you in

13:46

the strangest places.

13:48

What a communal way for a brewery

13:50

like Bailbreaker that's in the middle of their own family's

13:53

hop farm to tap into New Zealand

13:55

hops of all things for this. But there's

13:58

a lot of global hop love. Next

14:01

on your list, you go to the Logger Realm.

14:02

Logger Realm, yes. And

14:05

a beer that really

14:08

stood out to me from Craft Brewers Conference,

14:10

which if after four days

14:13

of pretty heavy beer sampling,

14:16

something stands out. I know it's really special.

14:19

This was Rhythm's Unfiltered Logger, Rhythm

14:21

Brewing out of New Haven, Connecticut. I

14:25

took this home from

14:27

an NB2A, the National

14:30

Back Brewers Association event, and drank

14:33

it the next day at my hotel.

14:37

I loved that this lager was a touch

14:40

sweet, but with the carbonation

14:44

cleaned it up super well. I think

14:47

we forget that sweetness is a really

14:49

pleasant thing, and it sometimes gets a little shade

14:54

because it's like, oh, we should like everything bone dry

14:56

because it's more sophisticated. I'm not saying

14:58

this is like a sweet beer, but just on that side

15:00

of it, and it was like such a nice, easy

15:02

to drink thing with just, again, the

15:04

right carbonation to kind of counter that. And

15:07

I just, I really loved it. It tasted

15:10

like Cheerios in a really

15:12

comforting way to me. And

15:14

yeah, I really, really was glad

15:16

that I threw this beer in my purse

15:18

for the next day. And

15:21

that idea of lager being

15:24

able to embrace sweetness in

15:26

measured ways where appropriate is a theme that

15:29

I think we're coming back to over and over again over

15:31

the last two months, or the next and

15:33

past two months of the podcast. And

15:36

so you're right, you're right on theme there. I totally agree

15:38

with you. Let's not forget that malt is delicious,

15:41

and yeah, can make

15:43

fantastic lagers. What's next

15:46

on the list? This is one that we tasted in our Best in Beer

15:48

tasting that found its way onto your

15:50

personal list through that. Another reason Bruce

15:53

should also continue to send beer

15:55

for our kind of wild card tasting

15:58

for Best in Beer.

15:59

Wild Card is a very good word, I

16:02

think, for this beer because

16:04

I loved it and was obsessed with it. And

16:07

I think it was a little polarizing for a certain other judge.

16:09

Everyone liked it, but it was, I don't know, something

16:11

about it really spoke to me. I can honestly

16:14

say, so the beer that we're

16:16

talking about, 7 Sun Pineapple Express,

16:18

the beer

16:22

has to explicitly state that there is no

16:24

THC in it because you would

16:27

believe it does.

16:30

This is using cannabis

16:32

terpenes that are

16:35

there, but using it in a fruit,

16:38

in a tart fruit beer, I have never

16:40

had a beer like this before. You

16:43

get kind of pineapple

16:45

core earthiness and the terpenes

16:48

are very green

16:50

and sort of of the earth and

16:52

minty. And then there's like the zingy

16:55

acidity. I was just blown

16:57

away by how the terpenes are integrated here and

16:59

I thought it was such a cool, like brewers

17:02

finding a new color in

17:04

their palette and like painting with it in

17:06

a style that is different than

17:09

anything I had ever had and I just thought it was super

17:11

cool.

17:12

I agree with you. This was definitely

17:14

in some of our broader conversations about

17:17

Best Peers of the Year. Ultimately, didn't make the

17:19

overall list, but

17:21

like why let IPAs have all the terpene fun,

17:23

right? You know what I mean? It's

17:25

a, right, like this is a flavor

17:28

and ability to add

17:30

this into other beer styles that can also resonate

17:32

with folks. Such a cool way to think about it. Absolutely.

17:36

It's a good creative idea, then also a

17:38

fantastic execution. Absolutely.

17:40

Both those things together. Next you

17:42

went sweets on the pastry style side. Yes.

17:46

I, yeah,

17:47

I wouldn't say these two styles

17:49

are, you know, a style that I maybe

17:52

even expected to have on my list here, but this one,

17:56

Super Bloomy Way, Perennial Colorant.

17:58

There's a phase three colorant.

17:59

collab.

18:01

What I really loved here, and

18:03

there's a ton going on. This is like a massive over-the-top

18:05

imperial style with coconut, two

18:07

kinds of vanilla aged 17 months in

18:10

old Fitzgerald weeded bourbon barrels,

18:12

like so much happening. But my favorite

18:14

part of this beer was the cinnamon.

18:18

The cinnamon sort of coconut

18:20

vanilla interplay was so

18:24

excellent and had so many culinary

18:28

memories. My brain was just lining

18:30

up a pinball machine. I was like, oh, kind

18:33

of like cinnamon toast crunch. And it's

18:35

also kind of like these cookies that I used to eat. But

18:37

then there's enough of this chocolate,

18:40

whiskey, dark cherry thing happening

18:42

to keep it from going totally confectionary.

18:46

Obviously still quite sweet and giant, but I thought

18:48

for a beer with everything going on, it was

18:51

exceedingly well done. And

18:53

the cinnamon was so fantastic.

18:55

More cinnamon these beers, please.

18:58

Well, I think

19:00

the quality of their ingredient sourcing

19:03

plays into this too. And then watching

19:06

how bers have gone deeper into that

19:08

world of vanilla and that world of cinnamon and

19:10

finding the exact sources

19:12

for these things that are going to make delicious

19:15

beers. Such a cool thing to watch. I probably

19:17

need to work on more content around that,

19:19

especially with our upcoming stout issue. Now

19:22

that I think about it, okay, next on your

19:24

list, a collaboration

19:26

of sorts.

19:28

Yes. Jester King, Santom

19:30

Del Rey. So this was a collaboration

19:33

years ago. And then I guess Jester

19:35

King just sort of re-brewed that

19:37

beer. So not actually with Santom

19:40

present here, but based on the collaboration that they did.

19:43

As one would expect from a collaboration between these

19:45

two breweries, it is weird

19:48

as all get out. Probably the weirdest beer on here to me,

19:50

like so savory

19:52

and kind of mushroomy and umami

19:55

and also funky and

19:57

a little bit acidic. And there's a ton

19:59

of oaky. in there and it's like I can see this being

20:02

so wrong and instead it was so right

20:05

and just this wonderful like kind

20:07

of this is the beer you got to like sit with

20:09

and really to come in it and think about and kind

20:11

of like an intellectual exercise and what

20:13

where those flavors are coming

20:16

from and how they're playing with

20:18

each other. And I just

20:20

thought it was so weird

20:23

and delicious and

20:24

really

20:25

provocative I guess. I

20:28

kind of had to sit alone with this beer.

20:31

And a good moment to reflect on everyone's

20:34

experience with Fantome as Danny

20:36

figures out what the next steps are for

20:39

that brewery but what a what a pivotally important

20:41

brewery in the world of farmhouse brewing

20:43

and whatnot. Next

20:45

on your list was one that John Hickenlooper,

20:48

former governor of Colorado

20:51

was talking about at the opening of

20:53

the Great American Beer Festival Award ceremony.

20:56

Yeah, it won a

20:59

silver medal in the coffee beer category this year.

21:01

Wincoop's Kurtz Mile High

21:04

Malt. I drank this at

21:06

Wincoop and talking

21:09

to the head brewer there, Todd, who's like, oh, I'm

21:13

just really digging this batch. Like I sent

21:15

this to GABF. I just really

21:17

feel good about it. So you know when the brewer is like

21:19

really in a groove about him, like I should probably try

21:22

that beer I guess. And

21:25

it's a Vienna lager

21:28

with Ethiopian coffee and

21:30

just the Vienna lager part

21:32

is so smart. Adding

21:35

this like nuttiness that's also riffing

21:37

off like a lot of the dried fruit that's in

21:39

the coffee beans themselves. I

21:43

thought this was an exceptional beer and

21:45

then I felt extremely validated.

21:48

I won the medal. I guess you know probably Todd

21:50

did too. Just

21:52

an example of like when a brewer is like really

21:55

feeling a certain beer, like of course you got

21:57

to try it because that might be one of your 10

21:59

best of the year.

22:00

I love seeing that and I have brewers

22:02

mention that to me. I was like, well, you know, you

22:04

all rated it this and then it won a gold medal

22:07

at JBF. Like boom, there we go. Nice

22:10

to see some of those commonalities and those

22:12

things tended to happen more

22:14

than we planned for it for sure. Another

22:17

IPA is next on your list or I should say a

22:19

double IPA or a double, double, dry

22:22

hopped double IPA. DD,

22:23

DD, DDH, everything. Yeah.

22:26

So many Ds. So many Ds. Jennifer,

22:30

double dry hopped, Pliny the Elder. I

22:32

was like, is it too obvious to put

22:34

this on here? I don't know. Like this beer

22:36

is fantastic. What did I expect? I never

22:39

had a double dry hopped version,

22:41

drank it alongside standard

22:43

Pliny. I don't know that you could ever try

22:46

to like choose between these. It's like two different experiences

22:49

of the same beer, but I

22:51

really loved how much of the

22:54

like mimosa,

22:56

very citrus, creamsicle, tangerine situation,

22:59

the dry hopping was bringing to

23:01

this.

23:03

And

23:04

again, just to experience a beer

23:06

that you love and respect

23:09

so deeply in kind of a new light,

23:11

it's like, I don't know, it's just

23:13

a fantastic experience and

23:16

really proof that obviously Russian

23:18

River can do whatever the heck they want and knock

23:21

it out of the park. So

23:23

I shouldn't have been surprised by this experience, but it was cool

23:25

to like, I don't know, it's like seeing a movie

23:28

you love in like 35 millimeter or

23:30

in IMAX, I don't know, just like a different version

23:33

of a thing you love. So

23:35

it was just a very cool, the whole thing was

23:37

a cool

23:37

experience for me to taste both of those side by side. I

23:40

love how Russian River uses those

23:42

beers because I think this one initially

23:44

had come out of their Pliny for President kind of

23:46

thing. And I know that it got tweaked since

23:48

then because, you know, then you can't help but tweak

23:51

all these things. I'm curious, I think, you

23:53

know, we were, I was talking, I'm blanking

23:55

on the conversation now but it's got another plan

23:57

next year for next year's Pliny for President.

24:00

can't wait to see what that one becomes and then

24:02

if it finds its way into the lineup

24:05

in the future. But

24:07

yeah, next year's an election year. That means planning

24:09

for president. It's the best thing about any election

24:11

year. We need it. We need

24:13

it. We need beer during election years. Exactly.

24:17

Exactly. So one last beer, one

24:19

last beer on your list.

24:21

Yes. Time and Materials

24:23

Boulevard of Imperial Creams. Time

24:26

and Materials is a very teeny brewery in Redding,

24:28

Massachusetts and this beer

24:30

was a collaboration with Lost

24:33

Shoe Brewery and Coffee Roastery.

24:36

I loved this

24:39

beer for the

24:42

rum barrel aging with

24:46

a lighter coffee base, a

24:49

creamer. And

24:51

just the way the

24:53

rum barrel is interacting with

24:56

the Guatemalan cold brew and there's

24:58

like that little corny sweetness. There

25:01

was also vanilla and lactose. Again,

25:03

tons going on here, but when you can

25:05

really distinctly pick out the

25:07

influence of all of them and

25:10

they meld together perfectly, I thought

25:13

it was expertly melded, very harmonious.

25:17

And for, yeah, put kind of a very

25:19

small brewery on my radar and

25:21

it was just really cool to, yeah,

25:24

find such a little teeny tiny brewery doing

25:26

something that really kind of blew me away.

25:29

And

25:30

yeah, also I'm a sucker for rum barrel aging. Very

25:33

cool. What was your most memorable

25:35

beer drinking experience of the year? This one goes

25:37

back to Chile again.

25:38

Yeah. This

25:41

is the same Argentina, South American

25:43

trip I was on earlier this

25:45

year, but in the town

25:47

of San Pedro to Atacama, Chile, which

25:50

is in the middle of the Atacama

25:52

desert where I was doing some camping,

25:55

that town is wild

25:57

because there's people from all over the world

26:00

coming to this dusty desert

26:02

town where the streets are just like sand. And

26:05

obviously, given that heat and you're

26:08

also at a very high elevation, you want

26:10

to drink some really cold beer,

26:12

found this soccer bar that

26:14

I'm probably going to mispronounce Chella

26:17

Kabor, Kabor, and

26:20

sat drinking some very, very cold Kunsten

26:22

Lager. And the people watching

26:25

was insane. It's like that,

26:27

the pub in Star Wars, where there's

26:30

people speaking a million languages and there's some

26:33

nefarious folks in the corner, who knows?

26:37

But also really friendly people giving advice

26:39

to each other about where to camp and where do

26:41

I get fuel for my jet stove

26:44

and all jet boil stove and

26:47

where can I find a fishing line? I

26:50

don't know. It really reminded me that

26:52

pubs are the public house. They are the

26:54

gathering place for

26:57

especially in a new town. You

27:00

can really go and try to get your

27:02

problem solved at the local pub.

27:05

So that was just, I don't know, one of the

27:07

most unique bars I've ever been to in my whole life and

27:10

in a cool place.

27:11

Problem solved, new problems created,

27:13

it all kind of happens right there.

27:16

Yes, the cause of

27:19

and solution to all of life's problems.

27:21

Exactly. So a beer

27:23

topic that fascinated you this year?

27:26

Yes. Well, maybe it was because

27:28

I wrote about it at Time for Craft, Beer, and Brewing

27:30

and for the brewing industry, God, but, uh,

27:33

files. Wow. I

27:35

have not watched sort of

27:38

a real

27:40

time discussion between

27:43

science and brewing technique

27:45

and drinkers evolve so quickly sort of in

27:47

real time. I mean, just over the course of

27:50

months, researchers

27:53

in yeast and

27:55

malts as well and hops are speaking

27:57

with brewers, getting their real on the table.

28:00

the ground perspective of what file boosting

28:02

products and yeasts are doing for them. And then

28:05

drinkers are giving their feedback about,

28:07

are we liking where this

28:09

is going? And then all three of those kind

28:11

of ping ponging back and forth to

28:13

figure out what is the direction we really want this,

28:16

you know, tool kind of to go in.

28:18

It was just I felt

28:20

like I was watching, you know, discovery

28:23

happen in real time. And I think

28:25

the future for where how files

28:28

are used

28:30

or highlighted is obviously like

28:32

being written right now. So that

28:35

was just something I could have written about probably

28:37

every month. It's

28:40

absolutely true. And it's interesting to watch whether

28:42

it's, you know, research coming out of, you know,

28:44

Berkeley, you know, on the West Coast, whether

28:47

it's research coming out of Omega Yeast in Chicago,

28:49

we're watching some of these conversations really

28:52

moving forward. I think that when we look

28:54

back at this year and last year, you know,

28:57

things like discovery of the, you know, gene

29:00

that leads to haziness

29:02

and beer. We look back at

29:04

this time, like,

29:05

you know, it'll become more apparent in retrospect,

29:07

which is obviously why we do this. We

29:10

have these conversations now, you know, because

29:12

we're starting to think about what will this look like in

29:14

the future. But I think when we look back at this, this

29:16

period of development and

29:19

of research and of

29:21

scientific progress in the world of

29:23

brewing, I mean, it's really very

29:26

significant and we shouldn't, you know,

29:28

underplay how impactful

29:31

some of this science is in making and

29:33

building the foundation for beautiful

29:35

beers that we will continue to drink in the future.

29:38

Absolutely. Okay. Well, let's finish this off

29:40

with your most encouraging thing happening

29:43

in craft beer lately.

29:44

Yes. I chose

29:47

the unhyping of

29:49

craft beer. This

29:51

year, it really seemed to me, and I say

29:53

this as

29:54

a positive thing because it seems to

29:56

me this year that craft beer

29:58

is achieving

29:59

And it's early vision

30:02

from decades ago, like drinkers

30:04

can find incredibly well-made,

30:07

flavorful beer of all different types

30:10

all over the world from gas stations, airports,

30:13

convenience stores, hair

30:15

salons. This

30:17

was the point, right? And

30:22

while I think, you know, the sort of de-hyping

30:25

or mainstreaming of craft has

30:28

other,

30:29

you know, sort of deeper

30:32

implications for like homogeny

30:34

and commoditization and there's some

30:36

kind of like philosophical questions there and

30:39

how special are these things anymore. I

30:41

think just on a sort of like practical level,

30:44

accessibility and drinker

30:46

access to delicious beer,

30:48

like truly what a time to be

30:51

alive.

30:53

This is what

30:55

pioneers of this industry had hoped for

30:57

and we get to live it. There's

30:59

evidence by one of my top 10 beers

31:01

of the year coming from a warm shelf at Trader Joe's. So

31:06

I think it's a positive for drinkers

31:09

at the very least.

31:10

Great flavorful beer as ever.

31:12

And I think you're right. Well, we don't want to see, we

31:14

don't want to become the thing that craft

31:16

beer, you know, defined itself against

31:19

for so long. You don't want to watch,

31:22

you know, you know, compacting

31:24

margins and consolidation

31:26

and large players, you know, pushing small

31:28

players out of the market. You know, this diversity

31:30

in craft beer is its strength and having

31:33

this range of size and scales of craft

31:35

beer and having ranges of price points that

31:37

can support different types of production and

31:39

the different types of artistry and craftsmanship,

31:42

you know, those are all important things, you

31:44

know, but the idea that there's a general consciousness

31:47

and focus on flavor in beer, like

31:49

just that sheer concept. Now,

31:52

we take it for granted, right? Absolutely.

31:55

Here we are. So got to

31:57

enjoy the certainly the positive.

32:00

of aspects of that because yeah,

32:02

there's more delicious beer than at any

32:05

time in modern history

32:07

here. So I

32:10

feel good about being on the record as that being

32:12

a good thing.

32:14

100%. 100%. Well, Kate,

32:16

thanks for joining me for this segment. If you want to read

32:18

all of Kate's writing for

32:21

both Craft Beer and Bering Magazine and our

32:23

Bering Industry Guide, she pens twice

32:25

a month stories for our all-access program

32:27

through the Bering Industry Guide. And if you are a member

32:30

of the industry, go out there and get that

32:32

all-access subscription that includes the Bering

32:34

Industry Guide so you can read hers and Don

32:37

Tess and Stan Hieronymus and

32:39

our consistent contributors to the Bering Industry

32:41

Guide all-access program. Kate also writes

32:44

features for Craft Beer and Bering, also writes case

32:46

studies for the Bering Industry Guide magazine. There's

32:49

all places to read Kate's fantastic

32:51

coverage of the beer industry.

32:54

Yeah, thanks, Kate. It's awesome talking to you. Thanks.

32:57

Looking forward to doing this again next year,

32:59

but I'll see you before then.

33:01

Sounds good. Thanks so much,

33:01

Jamie. Next up, Stan and I will discuss his critics

33:04

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34:28

Okay, Stan, now it's your turn. What's the first on

34:30

your list of favorite beers this year? Well, 20, a

34:32

quick, I think people understand this list is

34:34

really a fiscal year. We

34:37

start at the previous GBF, we go

34:39

to the next GBF. But

34:41

it turns out

34:42

that every beer on this list is

34:45

from 2023. I had in January

34:48

a beer that's known as

34:50

Fifth Hammer Five by Five.

34:52

And there are a lot of fives in this Fifth

34:54

Hammer obviously has one, they

34:57

partnered with Fifth Frame, another

35:00

brewery, both were having their fifth

35:02

anniversary. They created

35:04

a farmhouse beer. Then

35:07

Fifth Hammer took that beer,

35:09

put it in a solvent on malt barrel

35:12

along with the mixed fermentation.

35:15

And so that's basically

35:17

what this beer is. However, they then

35:19

primed it with local honey. And

35:23

that honey really comes through. It's

35:26

incredibly a salad

35:28

of fruits. And it's just a lovely,

35:32

relatively low alcohol for this

35:34

sort of style beer and wonderful

35:36

to drink.

35:38

I love Fifth Hammer had a great actually

35:40

was like a citric pale ale on cask

35:43

on the cask engine that a couple years

35:45

ago that just absolutely loved. I guess it was the last ball. Anyway,

35:48

what's next on your list? Garage Project,

35:51

Four Legs Good, which is a two

35:53

and a half percent beer. And Garage Project

35:55

is, they had a

35:57

beer Chance Lucky.

35:59

Magic,

36:01

which is also a mixed fermentation

36:03

beer that I think won Best of

36:05

Show in Australia, Best of Show in New Zealand

36:08

and medaled at the World Beer Cup.

36:11

It's a wonderful beer and striking.

36:13

This is like a junior

36:16

version of it and it's only two and

36:18

a half percent alcohol and it also

36:20

has a spectacular name for

36:23

a low alcohol beer.

36:26

Fantastic. I'm a huge fan of

36:28

mixed fermentation table beers and low

36:30

ABV levels. Well, people

36:32

stand in line at the Firestone

36:35

Festival to drink the pickle beer

36:37

and I talked to somebody

36:39

who was there this year and said I had to ask for

36:41

some of those other beers and those are sensational

36:43

beers that they're making. Their

36:45

investment in lab work is

36:48

way above average.

36:50

If anyone is pioneering molecular

36:52

gastronomy and beer, it's definitely

36:55

a garage project. Yeah. Well, your next beer

36:57

goes a completely different direction.

36:59

So Urban Chestnut Stomptish and just

37:01

looking at this, listen, I hadn't realized it

37:03

until now. Nine of the ten

37:06

beers I had at the brewery

37:09

and then frequently bought beer and brought

37:11

it back home. Urban Chestnut

37:13

Stomptish, for the first time since they

37:16

opened in 2011, I was

37:18

not at that brewery. We used to live in St. Louis. That

37:21

made it easier, but even during COVID

37:23

years, we happen to be there sometime or another.

37:25

But in this case, passing

37:27

through the St. Louis airport, which I do

37:29

know where to stop and then actually when

37:32

I'm landing, I check the gate I landed

37:34

in and then the gate

37:36

I'm going to fly out of and go,

37:40

oh good. Urban Chestnut Stand

37:42

is between those two. And

37:45

when I've got say 20 minutes and this happened twice

37:47

this last year, I know I can pick up the beer,

37:49

stand in the next line because we're flying Southwest.

37:52

And by the time I board, then

37:54

I'm done with the beer. And

37:56

by the time we're at 10,000 feet, a little bit of the beer.

38:00

bitterness is starting to go away. This

38:02

is a very properly bitter

38:05

pillster. And as regular readers

38:09

of Crapier and Brewing know, that's

38:11

important to Joe Stang. And as

38:14

I said in my comments here, the only

38:16

thing missing was Joe along

38:18

while I drank the stunt. Beautiful.

38:21

Beautiful. What's next on your list? So

38:23

the Benedictine Brewery,

38:25

which is in Mount Angel, Oregon,

38:28

it's their penal barrel age dark

38:31

night. And so this is their base

38:33

dark night beer. Like

38:36

six, seven years ago, they put just

38:40

in a single penal barrel at

38:42

another brewery where it was aging and they

38:44

kind of forgot it was there. When

38:46

the brewery went out of business, they returned

38:49

the barrel. At that

38:51

point, they did not have a barrel program.

38:54

And they tasted this beer and they said we need

38:56

to do more barrels

38:58

and beer. And it's

39:02

got all of a Belgian

39:05

strong dark, so it's got lots of dark fruit,

39:08

which you're going to get when you age a beer for

39:10

six years over time if it's a good base

39:12

beer going in. And then that just blends

39:15

with because also it's got

39:17

to get maybe two or three percent alcohol

39:19

out of the grapes in there with that song. So it was

39:22

a fresh barrel. It was just, you know,

39:24

it all comes together and it could have

39:26

been a disaster.

39:28

Interesting. Interesting. Next

39:31

up, you know,

39:32

a beer a little closer to your size

39:34

home in Colorado. Yeah, the primitive

39:36

beadville, which is a collaboration

39:39

with Voodoo Brewing, which seems

39:41

to be in Pennsylvania

39:44

and a... Seems to

39:47

be franchising across the country right now in

39:49

a weird kind of way. So they're franchising

39:52

and primitive is specifically

39:54

from that place. And as Brandon

39:57

says, it's crazy that they

40:00

come together to be such good friends but

40:02

they are and so that this was a

40:04

collab between the two but it

40:07

tastes totally of having

40:09

beer at primitive

40:12

which will be interesting to see because

40:14

primitive is actually going to move inside

40:17

of another brewery and I hope it works

40:19

out because that breweries less than seven miles

40:21

from my house. Well

40:23

it wasn't like long while it was that

40:25

that far from here but now it'll be... Yeah it was we were 40

40:27

or 45 minutes from there

40:30

but it's also it's and

40:33

I don't know that it'll be the same way it was

40:35

also one of the best curated

40:38

cap selections

40:40

in the United States I think for somebody who has six

40:42

or seven just a cross section where you can get

40:44

a cask beer you can get a properly

40:46

poured check beer you can get

40:49

a hazy IPA and

40:51

then you can get this fabulous selection

40:54

of spontaneous beers.

40:56

I hope they crank up some of those cask engines

40:58

in the in the new image taproom

41:00

where they are going to be you know co-locating co-existing

41:03

in the future because you're right such a cool place.

41:05

Anyway we'll see how that all goes but of course they're

41:07

a good company with new image moving forward

41:10

new image one of our beers of the year editors picks

41:12

for beers of the year this year too so

41:15

stacking good on top of good. What's next

41:18

on your list? A rather long

41:20

name to fit on a label which is

41:22

the Wheatland Spring Return and

41:24

that's actually what appears in the big words but

41:27

it's the Estate Piedmont Pilsner and

41:30

it's a different sort of farmhouse brewery it's

41:32

it's on a farm they do make

41:34

some

41:35

beers mixed fermentation

41:37

beer with yeast they've collected but

41:40

but the farm aspect that's super important

41:42

is they are growing their

41:45

own grain and and you can

41:47

stand on the brew deck and see the fields that

41:49

that's coming from and it really expresses

41:52

the land

41:54

that they're on they're also involved

41:57

in a project to breed varieties.

42:00

more suited to the Virginia environment

42:03

so more of their breweries can

42:05

make those sort of beers and I

42:08

certainly hope what they call land beer and

42:10

you can go to Germany and people say this

42:12

is a land beer in the United States nobody's quite

42:15

sure what it means but I hope that's part of the

42:17

future of American beer.

42:19

Absolutely it's been awesome to wash

42:21

and track some of those like rigs in Illinois

42:24

following that same kind of growing their own

42:26

grain having their grain malted

42:28

and then brewing with it right there adding value

42:30

to their own agriculture and you know

42:32

expressing not just

42:35

terroir and this loose kind of a more

42:38

sense of what terroir is but actually

42:40

employing their own agricultural products in

42:42

the production of the beer that they make. The people

42:45

and it's a ways to

42:47

get out there that it's about 20 minutes north

42:49

of the Dulles Airport

42:51

but people from DC travel there and

42:53

and they have got to know this this is when

42:55

I taste this I

42:58

know that it comes from this place.

43:00

Yeah there's a great story out of a

43:02

craft beer brewery or maybe it was our brewing industry

43:05

guy I'm a little blanking on it now. Anyway

43:07

if you're a subscriber go check it out. Next up

43:10

Ohio.

43:12

Yeah a narrow path brewing in this they're

43:14

on a bicycle trail and

43:17

again this is another actually this

43:19

is what Chad Powers the brewer saying

43:21

to me this this particular beer he considers

43:23

an offering from the land as it as much an

43:27

offering from the land as it is from the

43:29

brewer so it's it's a combination

43:31

where he's getting the malt for

43:33

this which is smoked and

43:36

it's in a Norwegian smoking

43:38

style from Sugar

43:40

Creek in Indiana then

43:43

he was using he

43:44

goes over

43:46

into Kentucky because he has a

43:48

friend and they can do this with he could

43:50

get him closer in but he actually harvested

43:53

cedar branches that he uses in

43:55

this beer and then it's

43:57

fermented with a rehydrated

44:00

at Vikeast, which a

44:02

home brewer had not collected,

44:04

had gathered from

44:07

somebody in Norway, obviously, and brought back

44:10

and they rehydrated. And

44:12

you put that together. This is

44:16

a smokier batch of malt and

44:19

can be off-putting to some people. But

44:22

that cedar, and if you

44:24

like smoke, which I do, it really

44:28

comes together. And it s a really

44:30

powerful punch. And

44:33

it s also worth noting that Stumbire Brewer has

44:35

an idea of what they re doing, won a medal on

44:39

just from the brewery this year and also won another

44:42

medal in a colab this year. So pretty

44:44

good at what they do.

44:46

Well, these last two have certainly been beers

44:48

we would expect from the guy who wrote

44:50

Brewing Local, the book. No

44:53

surprise there. The next one may be a

44:55

little bit of a different take. This next beer

44:57

is actually one that was on both of our personal

45:00

critics lists. Yeah, the cohesion.

45:02

And I think you know better than me how to say this.

45:05

Dovah. Dovah. We

45:07

can tell which of us has been to the Czech Republic

45:09

more recently.

45:11

So it actually studied the Russian

45:13

language in high school for several

45:16

years and actually a little bit in college and so some

45:18

of the baseline pronunciation.

45:21

But Dovah is too. This was

45:23

her anniversary beer.

45:25

So it s

45:28

a twist on their flagship

45:31

but it comes across in a variety

45:33

of different ways. Just a little bit

45:36

different malt bill which

45:40

is I don t know if you talked

45:42

about your list yet or not. My list

45:44

does not end up on the podcast. You have to go read

45:46

the magazine. Well, I can t even

45:49

talk about why you like the difference. But it is. You

45:52

absolutely can. I was going to mention it too and I ll tell you why.

45:54

Yeah, okay. When I came

45:57

after coming back from the Czech Republic, I actually got joked

45:59

about this a little bit. with Joe, but I mean, we, I

46:01

became that kind of insufferable jerk.

46:04

Um, you know, but even with

46:06

Eric, and only just apologized to Eric,

46:08

uh, Larkin, the co-founder of Cohesion

46:11

for this. Um, but I would, even at CBC

46:13

this year, um, at the, the check beer

46:15

event they did a Monday night, you know, I was like, just

46:19

being a kind of obnoxious, uh,

46:21

you know, about it. And it's like, you know, Eric, just

46:24

throwing the little trolling comments like, well, your beers,

46:26

they're good. They, they just need to be sweeter. Um,

46:29

you know, cause no one ever tells a lager, but really their

46:31

beer, their lagers should be sweeter. Um, but

46:34

they should, they should. I mean, that's the nice thing about

46:36

check pal lager. Like it has to have that fullness. It's

46:38

going to have that big net body, um,

46:40

to stand up to that kind of a heavy hop

46:42

load. And so I would, every time I'd see

46:44

him, I just kept repeating it. They'd be sweet and they've got to

46:46

be sweeter. And then of course we argued about it and

46:49

he was like, no, we're making check style lagers

46:51

for our, our audience and our palette. And

46:53

uh, and this is what people want

46:56

and they don't, you know, and totally fine. Then

46:58

what, you know, we went down to that issue.

47:00

Joe wrote a story on brewing check style.

47:03

So I reached out to text there and like, Hey, can we swing

47:06

down? Can I swing down and take some photos of pores?

47:08

And, uh, yeah, just cause that would be the best

47:11

place to get good, proper check style pores

47:13

for photos. Drove down, shot these photos,

47:15

um, Brooke, their tap room manager, uh,

47:18

you know, I was talking with

47:20

her as we're setting these things up. And uh, you

47:22

know, I made some slight comment,

47:25

uh, you know, about challenging Eric

47:27

about, uh, you know, sweetness in his beers and she listened

47:29

to me. Oh, you're that guy. Oh, you're

47:32

the guy. You're the guy. And like, Oh man, now I have

47:34

a reputation within cohesion serving that

47:36

guy. Anyway, I felt like they

47:38

brewed this beer just to shut me up. Maybe

47:40

I could be wrong. I'm sure there's other motivations there,

47:43

but uh, you know, that's, that's what it felt like.

47:45

So

47:46

well, it's nice because it's what's true,

47:48

but or which is a, a Colorado mall.

47:50

I'd say local, but it's not that

47:53

close, but it's still true. Yeah. It's a two-bedroom

47:56

mall. So it keeps some of that same

47:58

character. Again, we talked about beer from the land,

48:01

Eric is devoted to making

48:04

Czech style and doing

48:06

it with ingredients that are

48:08

going to give you that flavor and finding it. So,

48:11

so far he's not found hops

48:13

growing locally so that's

48:16

important and he's really interested in the

48:18

German hop breeding program. So this

48:20

has up front, the German check

48:23

hop breeding program, has

48:25

hops up front that are at such

48:27

small amounts that he had to officially

48:30

I think this is a colab with a brewery

48:32

in the Czech Republic so they could get

48:34

these hops. So it's a little spicier

48:37

and obviously as

48:39

Jamie pointed out a little bit sweeter and on

48:42

a hot sunny

48:44

afternoon sitting outside it

48:46

really is super refreshing.

48:49

I had a 10 after this

48:51

going to lower alcohol and

48:53

then came back to this one and

48:55

you know it was still you

48:58

didn't go oh this is heavier and bigger boost

49:00

and stuff like that. Just super refreshing

49:03

beer.

49:03

You know when we say big about it, like this is a four and a half

49:05

percent beer. Right, yeah. Yeah, so right

49:08

you know all things in measure but man what

49:11

an amazingly flavorful four and a half percent

49:13

beer and one that I can drink in quantity and one

49:15

that I kept going back to that on tap in

49:18

Fort Collins and the one account they have

49:20

in Fort Collins it's have a handle and so I I

49:23

drank a fair amount of it there and would go

49:25

to the bar just to drink a little bit more of it. Not

49:27

something I typically do but but

49:30

here we are. Next on your list.

49:32

Sorry, next on your list. It's interesting your point

49:34

though because it's like Casey Grazette but

49:36

this is wet hop with Cascade

49:39

hops from Colorado. I

49:41

have four mixed fermentation

49:44

beers on the list maybe I should be

49:46

embarrassed as the hop guy but that's the way it

49:48

goes. I love

49:51

the Casey house

49:53

character from their yeast the Grazette just

49:56

supports that wonderfully. This

49:58

had aged in barrels and so So to do

50:00

the fresh hop in this case, the best I

50:02

can understand is they kind of poured it

50:05

over

50:06

the fresh cascade hops. And

50:09

that's already a beer that has all kinds

50:11

of hard to describe citrus flavors. And

50:14

now we add in what they

50:16

are getting from the cascade hop. So

50:20

when I sent this in, Joe sent me a back a

50:22

list. I need to

50:25

challenge you to say more about the citrus

50:27

other than lots of citrus impossible to

50:29

describe. So

50:32

what I wrote is this has the guava

50:35

pulp meets tart lime rind.

50:37

You find in some Brazilian fruits, which

50:39

is unfair because you got to go to Brazil, I realized,

50:42

but it's the sort of thing we've had some

50:44

catarina sours here the last couple days.

50:47

And it's a reminder when you go someplace, they're

50:49

going to have a fruit you've never had before. And

50:52

you'll go, yeah, I can tell that's fruit. And then how

50:54

do I describe this? So anyway,

50:57

that's what it is, an intensely really

50:59

cool citrus experience. Were

51:02

those hops, those cascades from the Billy Go

51:04

hop farm? Yes, from Billy Go. Who

51:06

won the Cascade Cup. Yes,

51:09

this last year. The first time at Colorado

51:11

hop farm. Like the first time a hop farm

51:13

other than Oregon and Washington had won

51:16

the Cascade Cup. Crazy, crazy

51:18

times with this room coming to you. But no,

51:20

what a cool way to connect

51:22

locally. So one more beer, one

51:24

more beer on your list.

51:26

Finally, an IPA from

51:29

Cloudburst in Seattle and

51:32

wonderfully named Actual Poison.

51:35

Pretty typical for Cloudburst

51:38

sitting in the taproom and my wife

51:40

Dari, I don't take it really look

51:42

at their Instagram feed to see how

51:44

they describe their beers and about

51:47

three beers in and she's like on the floor laughing

51:49

like crazy. So you'd read this. I

51:52

don't know that it would entice you to drink

51:54

the beer. It just might scare you away. But

51:57

again on Saturday afternoon, a day before

51:59

my birthday is a mess. matter of fact, sitting in that taproom

52:02

and watching people come in and out, it's just

52:05

a great vibe, that experience that you like

52:07

a lot. And of course, I was my favorite drinking

52:09

partner. In this case, it has

52:12

a lot of those modern flavors.

52:14

When people talk about a West Coast IPA,

52:16

they've got, they are fruitier than they were 15

52:19

years ago. And so it has the Citro

52:21

Mosaic Equinol, but it also

52:23

has a good chunk of Chinook that

52:26

gives you that really, the

52:29

best I can say is Edge. I know that's not

52:31

the description necessarily,

52:33

but a different sort of bitterness and

52:35

a different sort of finish. And that

52:37

got me looking, thinking about how long Chinook

52:39

has been around. And Chinook

52:42

was bred in 1985, which turns

52:46

out to be the same year that the movie Back

52:48

to the Future came out. And that's what

52:51

I feel what the best West Coast beers

52:54

are doing is, they're taking us back

52:56

into the future at the same time.

52:59

I love Cloudburst. Obviously, they've been our beers

53:01

of the year and then the past and they sent

53:03

us a beer this year, it was a double red ale,

53:05

which of course, you know, for me echoes back

53:07

to like Avery hog heaven,

53:10

you know. Yeah. But the name was, I felt

53:12

seen in this name, it was say hi to your dad

53:14

for me. Yeah. Yeah. That was also in camp.

53:18

Maybe we're getting so old that we're cool again, Stan.

53:21

I've gone to that stage twice. Perfect.

53:24

Perfect. Okay. Well, you have five

53:27

more questions on your list, but instead

53:29

of answering those, go to, you know, Grass

53:31

Gear Brewing Magazine, read those. Let's

53:33

talk about your

53:35

biggest takeaways here from the Cobabaja

53:38

and Mexicali. We spent the whole day judging yesterday,

53:40

like we mentioned before. You know,

53:42

you wanted to talk about one or two beers that we tasted

53:45

because it's like they know you and I mean, I love

53:47

that I got to do this too. Wood

53:50

and smoked and historical beers. So the first,

53:53

the first beer on our table yesterday,

53:55

that was a Gojiska. It's

53:58

like you get typecast into this. You know, be careful

54:00

what you wish for, but it was great.

54:02

It was great. I mean, it could have been a little carved a little more, but it was otherwise

54:05

really great.

54:06

Well, first I, to

54:08

back up one thing, there was a good chance

54:10

your biggest takeaway from

54:13

this weekend is, is still coming ahead when,

54:16

first of all, this afternoon, we're going to go eat

54:19

Chinese Mexican food, which

54:22

is on Saturday last

54:24

year was just incredible. And

54:26

then we're going to go to a festival that is so

54:28

festive. And there's just a

54:31

joy. And this, as it seems

54:33

to me, as soon as you get South of the United

54:35

States, again, it's a

54:37

little bit like going back in time because

54:40

there's this excitement about beer and,

54:43

and people want to learn about it. They want to make it better.

54:46

And they're, we'll have beers

54:48

with fruits that are unique to

54:50

this region. And you'll taste this and go,

54:53

I've never tasted anything like

54:55

this before. So that's,

54:58

and

54:58

you've got the next few hours to look forward to. You

55:01

are a hundred percent right about this. Dan, let me just set the

55:03

stage for you last night after the award ceremony,

55:06

you know, brewers with medals around their necks. And

55:08

we all went over to Amante,

55:10

the brewery, and back

55:13

in the brew house they had guys

55:15

set up serving past, al pastor

55:17

tacos, just incredibly

55:21

incredible tacos back in the brew house.

55:23

But then they had musicians sitting

55:26

in front of the brew deck, like playing

55:28

music, the crowd of brewers, the

55:30

crowd of, you know, volunteers are

55:32

all standing around a circle, singing along.

55:35

I mean, it was riotous. It was fun.

55:37

It was such a beautiful energy.

55:40

And it was a nice reminder

55:40

of what the culture of craft beer is and

55:43

can be. Men, women,

55:45

you know, folks from the United States, folks

55:47

from all over Mexico, all

55:50

singing, eating, celebrating craft

55:52

beer together. I mean, it's, it kind of

55:54

sums it up. You're right. It feels like things

55:57

felt when it was tight

55:59

and we were all. and together years ago. And

56:02

it's good not to lose sight of that. I mean, craft

56:04

beer means something, right? Right. Exactly.

56:09

It's so much fun and it makes

56:12

the beers better. It's not

56:14

just a halo around it. We're judging these beers

56:16

blind and I had, I

56:19

think, three beers in the course of the competitions

56:22

that I scored over 40 at,

56:24

and that's BJCP scoring

56:26

standards. So basically, we had beers

56:28

that would be

56:30

pushing or hitting 100 in the magazine.

56:33

Yeah. Yeah. I know.

56:36

I mean, it was nice to see, you know, and the tops of most of these categories

56:39

were really world-class beers.

56:41

Yep.

56:42

And I'm pretty excited because after breakfast,

56:44

for some reason, I was headed up the elevator and

56:48

Alfredo, for getting his last name,

56:50

won, I think, six medals

56:54

yesterday when we were having breakfast, all of a

56:56

sudden he comes running to the elevator holding

56:58

out two cans of beer that somebody had left at the

57:00

table because I had judged a

57:02

category and then they found this

57:05

beer in the category and thought I might want to have

57:07

the beers again. So it's just, it's

57:09

kind of crazy and it's fun down here.

57:11

Absolutely. So what were your biggest beer takeaways

57:13

then? We,

57:16

the beer that we gave, the

57:19

gold in our category. As

57:21

I said, we're on

57:24

a

57:24

fiscal year. So I'm

57:26

collecting thoughts for

57:29

possibilities for next year's list and

57:31

probably that's the Higgs boson beer

57:33

that we had, which, so we started with a Grodysky

57:36

and we gave it a very high score. It is

57:39

not quite as hoppy as

57:42

Live Oak's and it doesn't have the advantage of

57:45

the particular multi-wheat that

57:47

Live Oak has, but it was on a

57:50

standard better

57:52

than all, but I can only think of one

57:54

Grodysky in Poland that it

57:57

would be better. It just had a lot of balance,

57:59

finesse, and was a wonderful beer and we're

58:01

going through and we're thinking this could be

58:03

the gold. Then we got to beer like three or four

58:06

and we had this beer and when you read

58:09

this ingredient list and you think they're

58:11

going to make an oudbrug and

58:13

they're going to age it in bourbon barrels

58:16

for two and a half years and

58:19

then they're going to age it in the bottle for another

58:22

half year, there is so much

58:25

room for error in there that you

58:27

would think might not be a good

58:29

idea but as soon as it was poured

58:32

and you smell it, my first thought was

58:35

obscenity,

58:36

Grodicki is not going to get first place. That

58:40

was from Madueno Brewery in Tijuana.

58:43

Yeah, Higgs boson, I

58:45

think we said that and I got

58:47

to figure out a way

58:49

because I'm not putting beers on

58:51

my list on the basis of drinking

58:53

two or three ounces. I don't

58:56

want to belittle anybody who does those

58:58

things on various things but I don't.

59:02

But it was just so balanced,

59:05

such an immense combination of

59:07

flavors. It

59:09

expressed the barrel itself as

59:11

much as the bourbon, what

59:14

the barrel brings to it in texture and a

59:16

little bit vanilla in depth and things like that and

59:19

all of that time spent

59:22

to which I'll say so we're not going to talk about

59:25

my five questions. One question is what's

59:27

the most underrated ingredient

59:30

in the beer and then the other

59:33

part of the question was you were supposed to then

59:36

name a brewery that is an example of

59:38

that and mine is time and

59:40

the amount of time you're willing to put, let

59:42

that beer mature and things like

59:44

that. And my example of brewery is

59:46

Beer Stott Lager which

59:48

is in Denver so it's a beer I can drink all the

59:51

time and I said when we had this beer to

59:53

Jamie I said I could have replaced

59:55

Beer Stott Lager with this beer and

59:57

I'm not going to because Beer Stott Lager doesn't hold.

59:59

Well, there you go. Stan, thanks

1:00:02

for sharing your list. I'm looking forward

1:00:04

to building some more memories over the

1:00:07

rest of the time that we have here in Mexico. And again, thank

1:00:09

you to the folks here at Copa Baja

1:00:11

and Metrocali for bringing us both down here and

1:00:14

giving us a great location to record

1:00:16

this little piece of our annual

1:00:18

reconnection on Critics List.

1:00:21

Courtney Isman is up next, but first,

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1:01:29

Next up in our Best in Beer Critics

1:01:32

List edition of the podcast,

1:01:34

joining me from New York City, my former stomping

1:01:36

grounds, of course, more specifically

1:01:38

the borough of Brooklyn, Courtney

1:01:41

Isman, welcome back to the podcast,

1:01:43

Courtney, for another edition of the Critics List

1:01:46

podcast. Thank you, I'm very excited

1:01:48

to be back. We've had a lot of great stories in

1:01:50

the magazines, both of the magazines from Courtney

1:01:52

this year, and we're looking forward to more next

1:01:55

year. But due to your spot

1:01:57

in the Northeast, and

1:01:59

as well as.

1:01:59

your travel. You got around quite

1:02:02

a bit this year, you know, all

1:02:04

over the world in fact. And so

1:02:06

your critics list pulls from those

1:02:08

travels and those experiences. Where

1:02:10

did you start in compiling your

1:02:12

critics list this year?

1:02:14

I actually did just kind of go back because

1:02:16

I did get to a few different cities,

1:02:19

back to some favorites, to some new ones. So I kind of

1:02:21

just, I mean, this is maybe embarrassing,

1:02:23

but I started by just going through my Instagram

1:02:26

because, you know, I don't

1:02:28

Instagram like as much as I'm quote unquote

1:02:30

supposed to as a writer anymore. So

1:02:32

now it's like the beer that I'm truly like,

1:02:35

oh my God, this is a life changing beer

1:02:37

that I actually post about. So I was like, Oh,

1:02:39

well that's the, that's a cheat sheet right there.

1:02:42

I take exception to

1:02:44

this idea that writers should be Instagramming

1:02:46

or that any journalist should I

1:02:49

went through it a couple of years ago, pulled all

1:02:52

of my stuff off of social media because I came

1:02:54

to this realization that, you know, I'm a

1:02:56

professional, I get paid to create content

1:02:58

and this is what I make a living from. And when

1:03:00

I am creating content, you know, for Mark

1:03:02

Zuckerberg on Instagram, he's selling

1:03:05

ads again. Like, right? I'm just creating

1:03:07

content for, you know, these mega

1:03:10

tech companies to sell their own ads

1:03:12

against and make money off of what I'm

1:03:15

creating. Like that's pretty fucked

1:03:17

up. Now that matter about

1:03:19

it, then I already was. Sorry, I got

1:03:21

distracted. This is one of my personal issues.

1:03:24

You know, and then of course,

1:03:26

you know, it's not just Instagram. It's also

1:03:29

all of us who work for Elon

1:03:31

Musk, creating free content for X,

1:03:34

you know, and of course for Google and everywhere.

1:03:36

Anyway, you use Instagram.

1:03:38

I use untapped. I don't rate anything. I just use

1:03:40

that to keep track of the beers I drink. So I can go back

1:03:43

and pull off my list and kind of like go and try to remember

1:03:45

the circumstance in this. So, so, you

1:03:48

know, what's the first beer on your list

1:03:49

and what made it stand out for you?

1:03:51

Next beer is

1:03:54

the Amaro de Malto from

1:03:56

Oxbow. So this,

1:03:59

this beer, was just really striking. I,

1:04:03

shameful beer writer secret, I

1:04:05

really only had my first proper visit to

1:04:07

Portland, Maine this year. And going

1:04:10

to the Oxbow Taproom is obviously

1:04:12

really special. And

1:04:15

this beer, I happened to see it on the menu,

1:04:17

like, wasn't going to even order anything

1:04:19

else. They were closing. And then I was like, ooh, a

1:04:22

beer that's supposed to taste

1:04:24

like Fernet Branca. I was like,

1:04:26

I absolutely have to try this because that, and that

1:04:28

is what you should end the night on anyway,

1:04:30

right? It was, the way

1:04:33

that it tasted like Fernet was

1:04:36

incredible. Like, what they have

1:04:38

done with the beer, it was like, it was

1:04:40

like the elevated version of the,

1:04:42

like, is it cake, but for beer. It's

1:04:45

like, oh, this is beer, but it's so, it

1:04:47

was so complex, so many different spices,

1:04:49

the way that, like, there was a touch of mintiness,

1:04:52

but it was like really dark and lush,

1:04:54

but not heavy. It was just absolutely perfect.

1:04:57

And I, of course,

1:04:58

brought like six bottles home. So

1:05:00

on trend right now between Underbird,

1:05:03

Fernet, and the Lord if you're in Chicago,

1:05:06

you know, and that kind of Amaro

1:05:08

focus, especially even like the folks at Burial,

1:05:10

I know we're extra, extra focused on Amaro's.

1:05:13

Very hot right now in the beer world. Oh yeah.

1:05:16

Very cool. So what's second on your list?

1:05:17

So then we have a smoked bragget

1:05:20

from Meilbury in New

1:05:22

Orleans. And this one jumped out

1:05:25

because I feel like I'll always remember 2023 as

1:05:27

the year that a lot of us

1:05:29

in beer had a bit of an existential crisis

1:05:31

about what we're doing here. And

1:05:33

we were, I like so many people, I've just

1:05:36

had this conversation over and over again this

1:05:38

year that we want to be like, we

1:05:40

excited and we want to have these beers that

1:05:43

are like, you know, sometimes you want the beer

1:05:45

that is just there to like accompany

1:05:47

the conversation. But sometimes you want those beers

1:05:49

that are the conversation and

1:05:51

this smoked bragget just sitting at the bar,

1:05:53

like talking to the bartender about it.

1:05:56

It was just the, it

1:05:58

has lapsang sous-chon tea. I don't

1:06:00

know if I'm pronouncing that correctly. So

1:06:03

again, like just really complex layered

1:06:05

with the smoke, touch of honey sweetness,

1:06:07

like those botanical herbal

1:06:10

notes in there. It was just so incredibly

1:06:12

special.

1:06:12

It's funny what you say that about

1:06:14

being excited again. And I think that we're, we've,

1:06:17

we went to the logger realm in

1:06:20

order, you know, as a yin and yang

1:06:22

against, you know, the kind of excesses of beer

1:06:24

before it. And now since we're coming back,

1:06:27

you know, balancing out again in another way, I'm

1:06:29

still trying to find that kind of interest.

1:06:32

And so interesting. What's next

1:06:34

on your list?

1:06:34

So actually it's funny because

1:06:36

we go from that beer to those

1:06:39

beers that are, I have two back

1:06:41

to back that are like

1:06:43

back to that kind of like very classic,

1:06:45

like this is an essential, I will always love this

1:06:47

beer. So this one is Renewal

1:06:49

from Strong Rope Brewery here in

1:06:51

Brooklyn. And it's a creme ale

1:06:54

and I was drinking it and I'm like, I never reach for

1:06:56

a creme ale. I don't know

1:06:58

if it's like I need to be doing that

1:06:59

more or if Strong Rope's

1:07:01

version was just that perfect.

1:07:03

It's just refreshing. A touch

1:07:06

of that corn and green sweetness, a touch of like

1:07:08

the floral herbal bitterness thing happening.

1:07:11

But like you could just kind of crush these

1:07:13

and like enjoy your afternoon in Strong Rope's

1:07:15

beautiful red hook

1:07:16

taproom. Everything I've had for

1:07:18

them has this interesting kind of almost rustic

1:07:20

character, which, you know, from an urban

1:07:23

brewery is such an interesting

1:07:25

kind of color to what they do. Yeah.

1:07:28

What's next? So then we have another just, you know,

1:07:30

accompany your afternoon really

1:07:32

beautifully. This is Aperada

1:07:35

Cervicita Alomana from Hercules

1:07:38

in Mexico City. So

1:07:40

it's a German style light beer, which

1:07:43

I don't think I've ever had even

1:07:45

in Germany. But Hercules

1:07:47

Brewery in Mexico, they have

1:07:49

a Lager exclusive bar. That's

1:07:51

sort of like their version of having a taproom

1:07:53

in Mexico City. So

1:07:56

that is just like, I think they

1:07:58

have some like more complex and like. like

1:08:01

more unique things you've never seen

1:08:03

before on the menu, but that is such,

1:08:05

it's kind of like a house beer, like

1:08:07

perfect refresher.

1:08:09

I love liked beer and there's one on our

1:08:11

Best in Beers Editor's Picks this year

1:08:13

from KC Beer Company. But

1:08:16

Hercules also wrote an article,

1:08:18

wrote a

1:08:19

home brew recipe for us this

1:08:22

year. It's kind of been fun to connect with those folks.

1:08:24

Next up you go IPA. Yep.

1:08:26

Yeah, this list is bouncing all over. So

1:08:29

I think like a lot of other people, just

1:08:33

my bar, right, for like when I'm even going

1:08:35

to try a hazy and when I think it stands

1:08:38

out, it just gets higher and higher, especially

1:08:40

as we are seeing like some other

1:08:42

trends emerge and styles re-embraced.

1:08:45

But Fidens, I mean, I know they've,

1:08:48

you know, their favorites at cross

1:08:50

beer

1:08:50

and brewing. Such a hipster, such a hipster,

1:08:52

Courtney. But they're so

1:08:54

good. Like their hazies really do

1:08:56

stand out to me. Like I never get

1:08:58

hot burn, I never get any salts

1:09:00

or anything and they really do get these

1:09:03

like sugar gummy but

1:09:05

like not too sweet, like just really

1:09:08

beautiful fruit flavors. It's like

1:09:10

a lush mouthfeel. It's balanced. They

1:09:12

just, they do

1:09:13

it right. Some came to Colorado

1:09:15

and I get to hang out a little bit with Steve

1:09:17

from Fidens while they were here. And

1:09:20

I was really struck by just how nicely they

1:09:22

balance bitterness. Yes, they're sweet

1:09:24

and there's hazy IPAs but they don't

1:09:26

ignore the bitterness and the structure is definitely

1:09:28

there in these so they don't feel like giant murky

1:09:31

sweet bombs. Exactly. Really, really

1:09:33

nicely structured beers. Yeah. Sure.

1:09:36

What's next on your list? So next is the Guest,

1:09:38

which I know is a popular one. It's

1:09:41

from Elsewhere Brewing in Atlanta and

1:09:43

it's a Czech style

1:09:46

dark lager. So

1:09:48

you know, really, really refreshing

1:09:51

and has a nice dry finish but does

1:09:53

get into a bit of that sort of like

1:09:56

rye bread, dark dried

1:09:58

fruit and a little bit of bitter. sweet chocolate.

1:10:00

It's just it like picks every box I think

1:10:03

on that stylist.

1:10:04

Check dark lagers. Still so hot

1:10:06

right now. We're still writing our

1:10:09

check fanaticism and I

1:10:11

don't seem to be waning

1:10:13

at all. What's next on your list? So I...

1:10:16

Smoked lagers. Oh yeah.

1:10:17

Smoked lagers. Well so this one

1:10:19

is a smoked blonde ale.

1:10:20

Ooh.

1:10:21

Yeah. Because so this one is I heard you

1:10:23

calling from Endless Life, also here

1:10:26

in Brooklyn, one of my favorites. Yeah

1:10:28

so like smoked lagers, I'm really excited because

1:10:30

that's one of my favorite things right and now

1:10:32

it's like easier to get at different

1:10:34

places but Endless Life has I think

1:10:37

they have done smoked lagers but they did this

1:10:39

blonde ale and it was just like the

1:10:41

subtlest little riffs on the style but

1:10:44

just like just enough to sort of like touch

1:10:46

your attention and then you just go back to like loving

1:10:48

that perfect perfect like note

1:10:51

of smoke. Like it's the right level. It's just great.

1:10:54

Fantastic. I just had some great a bunch of smoked

1:10:56

lagers over the last... or smoked beers over the last

1:10:58

couple days in Chicago because there's

1:11:01

quite a renaissance going on in the smoked beer

1:11:03

there. Oh yeah. And we're here for

1:11:05

it. I think we're all here for it. Yeah.

1:11:07

Next, a extra

1:11:10

hoppy lager. Mm-hmm.

1:11:11

Yep. So this is Pepperoni Castle

1:11:13

from Smith & Lens in Nashville.

1:11:17

This one I feel like lived up to an especially

1:11:19

hard test because I had at the end of like

1:11:21

my first full day at CBC. So

1:11:24

just like sitting at the bar with this perfectly

1:11:27

dry hopped Pilsner was just... It

1:11:30

goes perfectly with their pizzas. It's like the

1:11:33

you know just the right amount of like hot

1:11:35

punch to that crisp lager. Just

1:11:37

it's a gorgeous beer. Next up on your

1:11:39

list is a beer that

1:11:42

we've actually run a recipe for

1:11:44

through our All Access recipe

1:11:46

program for All Access subscribers.

1:11:48

Yeah, it's Heartbeat of the Hudson

1:11:50

from Lasting Joy upstate in

1:11:52

Tivoli, New York. So this

1:11:55

is a like a classic English

1:11:58

stout but with beats. So

1:12:00

it has a really nice sort of like

1:12:02

earthiness to it. And it's like

1:12:05

bittersweet, it's a little rich, but that finishes

1:12:07

dry.

1:12:09

Honestly, especially if

1:12:11

you go to their tap room, which I highly recommend,

1:12:14

and you're just like on this farm drinking a

1:12:16

beet stout, it's a whole moment.

1:12:18

Beautiful, gorgeous tap,

1:12:20

really. I haven't been there, but they

1:12:22

sent me the pictures. We met Alex,

1:12:24

Alex and Emily are the co-founders, and they came out

1:12:26

to one of our brick cellar events a number of years ago.

1:12:29

So we've been following their brewery journey

1:12:31

along, and it's fun to watch them from

1:12:33

the idea of a brewery to now making beer

1:12:36

to now showing up in critics lists,

1:12:38

watching that kind of development. Super,

1:12:41

super cool. What's the 10th and

1:12:43

final beer on your critics list this year?

1:12:45

So this is the stolen pine tree

1:12:47

from three beer, and

1:12:49

I hope that I'm saying that correctly because their

1:12:52

label, it kind of looks like it's a Z beer, but

1:12:55

they are a Serbian brewery.

1:12:58

And I had their beers

1:13:00

all over some travels in Croatia and

1:13:02

Montenegro. So the

1:13:04

reason that I picked this beer is because going

1:13:07

through Europe, I find every time I'm there, people

1:13:09

find out what I do for a living, if I'm chatting in

1:13:12

a tap room, that I'm

1:13:14

from the States, and they're like, we can't

1:13:16

do IPAs here. And

1:13:18

I'm like, I guess I used to agree

1:13:20

years and years ago, maybe, if

1:13:23

they're comparing it to American takes

1:13:25

on the style, obviously, but

1:13:27

there's a lot of breweries doing great

1:13:29

things with the IPA and three beer. The stolen

1:13:32

pine tree is like,

1:13:33

it's really

1:13:34

good bitter. It's like American IPA,

1:13:36

but leaning a little more to the West Coast style is

1:13:40

really, really nice. The bitterness was like

1:13:42

very much there.

1:13:44

IPA, great IPA from Serbia. That's

1:13:47

awesome. Well, let's talk about what your perfect

1:13:49

beer bar would be. Once again, we

1:13:52

gave a whole list of questions to all of our critics

1:13:54

and just let you, you got to choose which questions

1:13:57

you wanted to answer. And this is one that you want.

1:13:59

wanted to answer. So what makes the perfect

1:14:02

beer bar for you?

1:14:02

So for this one, I kind of Frankenstein

1:14:05

what I love about some of my favorites

1:14:07

in different cities. So,

1:14:09

you know, one of my favorite beer bars of all time

1:14:11

here in Brooklyn is Beerwax. And I like

1:14:14

the Beerwax, like the whole thing is, you know, they have thousands

1:14:16

of records and there's

1:14:18

the music is as big of a component as

1:14:20

the beer. And I like that in a beer bar, right?

1:14:22

Like I like if there's something else going on,

1:14:24

you know,

1:14:25

maybe that would be film or

1:14:27

maybe there's something else that you could bring to the table.

1:14:29

But I like sort of

1:14:31

the fusing of different like passions

1:14:34

and art forms against the backdrop

1:14:36

of beer, obviously.

1:14:37

I would want the perfect beer

1:14:39

bar to be as thoughtfully curated

1:14:42

as somewhere like needed horn in Berlin. And

1:14:45

then just

1:14:46

Mexico City

1:14:48

beer bars and bottle shops, they're

1:14:50

really, really into like education

1:14:52

driven conversation you walk in, they're like, what do

1:14:54

you like, you know, kind of any

1:14:56

level of beer lover wherever you are in your

1:14:59

journey would be served well by

1:15:01

that.

1:15:02

So there's a place called Malt Bunny that just

1:15:04

I they do it really well. And I think that that kind

1:15:06

of makes a perfect beer bar experience being

1:15:08

able to you know, it's not like you're going to beer school.

1:15:11

It's not like to like condescending, but

1:15:13

it's just a nice chat that could introduce

1:15:15

you to something

1:15:16

now. That's awesome. I did get

1:15:18

to beer wax when I was there last fall. And

1:15:20

what a cool place that is haven't been to the other two,

1:15:22

but now they're definitely on my list.

1:15:25

Most unique taproom experience this

1:15:27

year.

1:15:28

So I got to trace brewing in Pittsburgh.

1:15:31

And first of all, their taproom is awesome. I think

1:15:34

it used to be a punk venue.

1:15:36

And you can kind of still feel that like

1:15:38

you can kind of still feel the vibe of

1:15:40

there having been, you know, shows there

1:15:43

and they still do like they're very, very event-driven.

1:15:45

They're very much like a neighborhood fixture

1:15:48

for different very inclusive events.

1:15:51

So getting to sort of learn about that

1:15:53

they have, you know, a cool ship room

1:15:55

that gets used, you know, when the weather is it's hard

1:15:57

to be an urban brewery with a cool ship.

1:15:59

They also use that for events.

1:16:02

They're just big really cool elements of that

1:16:04

brewery. The team's really great. They

1:16:06

have a good Fooder program.

1:16:09

So yeah, that one stood out to me

1:16:11

very very cool Okay, last question

1:16:13

on your list most encouraging thing happening

1:16:15

in craft beer lately

1:16:18

so the other thing that I liked

1:16:20

learning about when I got to trace is that

1:16:23

they have a vocational program and that overall

1:16:25

that trend to me is

1:16:27

Definitely hands down the most encouraging thing.

1:16:29

There are independent organizations

1:16:32

like obviously, you know the Michael

1:16:34

Jackson Foundation

1:16:36

is with sort of a trailblazer there And

1:16:39

beer culture, but there are

1:16:41

other you know breweries like trace now are

1:16:43

starting their own There's

1:16:45

the love a bond

1:16:48

Program here in New York to that is they're doing

1:16:50

internships at other half So

1:16:52

yeah, they were just they're getting underrepresented

1:16:55

people into beer sort of providing these educational

1:16:58

and career placement Opportunities so

1:17:01

there that is like just the most direct

1:17:03

and impactful way of diversifying

1:17:05

the industry

1:17:06

100% I love watching these programs

1:17:08

develop that create new avenues for people

1:17:11

to connect with craft beer connect with careers

1:17:14

in craft beer and that remove the

1:17:16

barriers for them to enter this world

1:17:18

of craft beer because You know

1:17:20

as we've always said, you know, the diversity of craft

1:17:23

beer is its strength Thanks

1:17:25

for sharing with us your thoughts on your favorite beers

1:17:27

of the year as well as some of the trends

1:17:29

and some of the things Happening in craft beer that

1:17:31

are resonating with you now Courtney. It's great

1:17:34

to have your thoughts and opinions here Of

1:17:36

course the people want

1:17:36

to read more from Courtney you can in the pages

1:17:38

of craft beer brewing magazine and our brewing

1:17:41

industry guide or Check out her

1:17:43

hugging the bar newsletter that

1:17:45

she produces through sub stack Courtney

1:17:47

always a pleasure Thanks for joining me for this part of the episode

1:17:50

Cheers Cheers.

1:17:50

Thanks so much. Next up Alex

1:17:53

kid Alex You joining us from Southern,

1:17:55

California. It has been an amazing

1:17:58

year in some regards. You just

1:17:59

welcomed a new baby into the family. Also,

1:18:03

maybe one of the worst years of your entire

1:18:05

life. You

1:18:07

got a diagnosis back in May that has

1:18:09

certainly changed the entire trajectory

1:18:13

of your existence. Do

1:18:16

you wanna fill people in on what's going on?

1:18:18

Yeah, so the past 12 months

1:18:20

has been a pretty crazy

1:18:24

arc of ups and downs. New house,

1:18:26

as you said, new baby, new cancer

1:18:28

diagnosis in my colon, liver,

1:18:30

and lungs, key

1:18:33

chemo, and everything that comes

1:18:35

with it. So it's been quite the

1:18:37

ride. So as a result, I was only able

1:18:39

to drink for nine months out

1:18:41

of the 12. So if you

1:18:44

see any glaring blind spots, that's

1:18:48

why. Sorry I didn't get to

1:18:50

try double barrel DBT here. Whenever

1:18:53

it came out in summer and onward,

1:18:56

I was not privy to, so don't impugn

1:19:01

my journalistic integrity.

1:19:02

No worries. Your

1:19:05

list is fantastic. Readers

1:19:08

of Craft Beer and Brewing, subscribers of Craft Beer and Brewing

1:19:11

can go see it. And if you are not a subscriber,

1:19:14

by the time this episode airs, people will be able to go to the

1:19:16

website and read it on beerandbrewing.com,

1:19:18

and I encourage them all to do that. I'm

1:19:21

concerned about next year's list because

1:19:25

you need to kick this cancer, not

1:19:27

just for your own self, family,

1:19:30

and all these other things, but just so that we can have a good

1:19:33

critics list. However, even

1:19:35

if you're not in drinking shape by the time

1:19:38

next year's list rolls around, I imagine you can find

1:19:40

a way to either crowdsource or pull

1:19:43

it in and create something. Because

1:19:45

we would hate to break the streak that we're on.

1:19:48

Eight years this year, Alex, eight

1:19:50

years in a row that you've provided

1:19:53

a critics list to Craft Beer and Brewing, and

1:19:55

you, me, Stan Hieronymus, or

1:19:57

the original cast.

1:19:59

for critics lists and we're still doing it now this

1:20:02

eighth year in a row.

1:20:03

Yeah. When you told me that

1:20:06

when we were just setting up and doing prep, I was like,

1:20:08

that can't be right because I was still anonymous

1:20:10

when we started doing it. It was like before the podcast,

1:20:12

before the live shows, all that

1:20:14

stuff. And you know what? It checks out.

1:20:17

It does check out because I remember we met at

1:20:19

Firestone that year and made it happen

1:20:21

a couple months later. And it is bizarre

1:20:23

to think of that, you know, that arc. And

1:20:26

in terms of next year, people are

1:20:28

uninitiated. They're going to be like, wow, this guy really pivoted

1:20:31

and got into sparkling

1:20:34

water, hot waters, really

1:20:36

into NA beer all of a sudden, the entire

1:20:38

list. Wow. So we'll see.

1:20:41

I'm trying to figure out a way

1:20:43

to pivot in the way I can to keep people entertained.

1:20:45

And we'll figure it out as we go along. Oh, man.

1:20:48

If it's all NA beer and hot water, that would be amazing.

1:20:50

I'm here for it. Let's

1:20:52

do that next year. So for this year, let's

1:20:55

kick in and start with your top 10 beers of

1:20:57

the year. What's the first one on your list?

1:21:00

Oh, man. This brewery doesn't need

1:21:02

any more hype. I mean, speaking of breweries

1:21:04

that have been around a while, Jester King

1:21:07

is doing such good things in hill country. And

1:21:09

you come to expect a level of quality so that

1:21:12

for them to exceed their own, like, you

1:21:15

know, that Jeffrey Steffing seal of

1:21:17

approval, this was like a

1:21:20

beer that was so good that I not

1:21:22

only was like, wow, that that was that was good relative

1:21:25

to Jester King. It was like just good

1:21:27

relative to all American wild ale, which

1:21:30

can tend to be too acidic to drying.

1:21:32

You can't finish a 750. All the

1:21:34

trappings of the excesses of the genre.

1:21:37

This skirted all of them. Gin barrel

1:21:39

aged Nocturne Chrysalis love

1:21:42

Nocturne Chrysalis. The

1:21:44

Gin barrel aging added this like awesome

1:21:48

Eucalyptus mint sort

1:21:50

of a Bergamo. Like

1:21:52

thing going on that actually tempered the

1:21:55

acidity and kind of made it feel

1:21:57

more panic. So I like

1:21:59

very.

1:21:59

Very few times can I finish an entire American

1:22:02

Wild Ale at this one was easy,

1:22:04

amazing beer. Also

1:22:06

on the other side, you mentioned this acidity

1:22:09

and kind of teeth and animal melting Wild

1:22:11

Ale thing. We're starting to see other side

1:22:13

which is just like fruity jamminess and

1:22:15

sweetness. And I think you're right, when you're

1:22:18

in the critique that you write, what

1:22:20

they manage is not just this kind of

1:22:22

sweet fruit one note-ness. It

1:22:25

takes this fruit and it transforms into

1:22:27

this complex flavor

1:22:30

that echoes a lot of other things from Syrah

1:22:32

grape. And I find that even

1:22:34

with some of the other fruit beers as well. Anyway, Gin

1:22:36

Barrel is so hot right now. There's definitely

1:22:39

a Gin Barrel aged Wild Ale in our top 20

1:22:42

editor's picks for beers of the year. Is

1:22:44

it a coincidence? I don't know. But

1:22:47

next on your list is a barley wine

1:22:49

in that high gravity space close to your heart.

1:22:51

Tell me about that one. Yeah.

1:22:53

I think that's a great question. Again,

1:22:55

another one of these companies that I've

1:22:57

been a supporter of for

1:22:59

a long time and it's fun to watch their arc

1:23:02

and the things that they're coming up with. It

1:23:04

feels so derivative to just

1:23:07

reinforce their level

1:23:09

of quality and reinforce what they're doing.

1:23:12

But this was such a fantastic

1:23:14

beer that I was like, I can't punish

1:23:16

them for their successes. It was just

1:23:18

that good. Their Double Barrel DSOJ

1:23:22

was one of those things like getting

1:23:25

in a fight with a child. You're going to

1:23:27

lose either way. If

1:23:30

it comes out and it's worse than regular DSOJ,

1:23:32

like, okay, you screwed it up. Or

1:23:36

if it's better, it's like, well, it better be. But

1:23:40

this really kind of took it away

1:23:42

from the usual English candy

1:23:45

type of realm. Like a lot of that caramelized

1:23:48

brown sugars and things like that. It

1:23:50

went more like Luxardo

1:23:53

Cherry. It had

1:23:55

this nice underpinning of

1:23:57

Syrah and obviously a shit. huge

1:24:00

blast of task that

1:24:03

just brought everything together and a slightly

1:24:05

lower carb level which was kind

1:24:07

of cool to have that silky body

1:24:09

instead of full on effervescent.

1:24:12

Sure, sure. Doing fantastic work there

1:24:14

still. What's next on your list? So

1:24:16

this came out of nowhere. This

1:24:19

brewery hadn't heard of them. They were literally

1:24:21

halfway across the world in Sydney. The

1:24:25

people who followed this

1:24:27

brewery, White Bay, they know. The

1:24:29

Australian fanbase is

1:24:32

so rabid. They're so proud. They're

1:24:34

one of those countries that I'm like, okay, this

1:24:39

is one that has their own culture, their own

1:24:42

source of pride. I find this

1:24:44

very heavily, in particular in Sweden,

1:24:46

is this way. There's like few countries

1:24:48

that are just gung-ho. Costa Rica is

1:24:51

this way. And

1:24:53

when they sent me White Bay,

1:24:56

Sequoia country, they sent it to me

1:24:58

from across the world. And

1:25:01

this, the head brewer, I don't know

1:25:03

if he's still there, so I don't want to like pump

1:25:06

him up too much, but he was

1:25:08

a veteran of Oscar Blutes and went

1:25:10

halfway around the world, like planted his

1:25:12

flag. And I'm

1:25:14

like, okay, this

1:25:16

is like the reverse IPA. It's been shipped the other

1:25:19

half of the world. Instead of going around the

1:25:21

tip of Africa, it's gone around

1:25:24

the tip of Australia and across the Pacific.

1:25:26

So it was very

1:25:28

strange to have an imported West Coast

1:25:31

IPA. And it just delivered

1:25:33

on all of the things that you look for

1:25:35

in like the, like, if you used

1:25:38

to love like back when the pre-green

1:25:40

flash buyout Alpine, those

1:25:42

bombers with the corny labels, Kern,

1:25:44

Kern Citra, Boneyard.

1:25:47

These are all like those West Coast like

1:25:50

masters. And this falls right

1:25:52

in that can, it's Comet Mosaic Citra.

1:25:55

Nothing crazy. It's just so

1:25:57

well executed in a callback to

1:25:59

a time.

1:25:59

that is weirdly resurfacing. It's

1:26:02

so west coast, it's east coast again, over

1:26:05

there in Sydney for sure. Next

1:26:08

on your list, Barely Stout. Yeah,

1:26:11

so this spear from Topling Goliath

1:26:13

kind of falls into the same category

1:26:15

as Revolution where I'm like, do I need

1:26:18

to reinforce like the level of quality?

1:26:20

Like there are people somehow unaware and it's

1:26:23

like, it's always be grudgy because you're like padding

1:26:26

out your list with like all of these proven

1:26:28

quantities. You look as though you're not

1:26:30

being experimental or you're not, you're

1:26:32

close minded and you're just reinforcing a narrative

1:26:34

of greatness. But I drank this on

1:26:36

New Year's Eve and it

1:26:39

was just like mind blowing. Like I

1:26:41

opened it for people who don't like beer, like

1:26:43

you know, at New Year's Eve to bring some bottles

1:26:45

with all your normie friends and they were

1:26:47

like, this is one of the best beers I've ever had in my life.

1:26:50

The things that the Ry Double Barrel Assassin

1:26:53

does, it fills

1:26:55

in a lot of the gaps of things

1:26:57

that are too saccharine sweet, a

1:26:59

little bit too like molasses-y

1:27:03

or things in that realm. But it also

1:27:06

reconciles it with giving this like

1:27:08

nice slight roast to it, which

1:27:10

is more like a Scandinavian, continental

1:27:12

European, black patent malt execution. And

1:27:15

the real kicker is the Ry because

1:27:17

the Ry gives it like that it brings those

1:27:20

two halves together and gives it like

1:27:22

almost like a sazerac, that

1:27:25

absinthe sort of good and plenty

1:27:27

sort of thing that was, it's

1:27:28

just really, really good. And

1:27:31

they're not afraid of bringing some stout flavor

1:27:33

back into even their,

1:27:35

their barrel aged stouts. Yeah.

1:27:38

So it's a nice thing to see again. Next

1:27:40

on your list, you gotta go back down to the south.

1:27:43

That's right. Nashville, Tennessee,

1:27:45

Barik, Baltic Porter. A

1:27:48

lot of people have been dabbling in Baltic Porter

1:27:50

as this like stout adjacent realm. And

1:27:53

you've got, if you look at any of these lists,

1:27:55

the biggest cliche is to just say, Oh, I'm

1:27:58

into lagers. I'm into pillzers. after

1:28:00

the year of the Czech dark logger last year,

1:28:02

it's almost like become its own

1:28:05

like cringe inducing thing of like bottom

1:28:07

for medsini leadism. This is weird

1:28:09

because it takes all the things that people praise

1:28:11

about clean loggers and

1:28:14

it like ups the stakes to be like, can

1:28:16

can we like enter a market

1:28:18

where excess is king but still

1:28:21

reconcile that with the gentleness of

1:28:23

the logger profile. And I think that

1:28:26

threading that needle is so difficult that

1:28:29

that's what I respect is like taking a taking

1:28:31

a swing on these styles that are

1:28:33

forgotten, untested, not market

1:28:35

proven, they're gonna sit on draft lines forever

1:28:38

and being like, we're gonna risk gonna do it extremely

1:28:40

well. And this like brings

1:28:42

me back to like those days of

1:28:45

I don't know if you guys remember like people's

1:28:48

Porter, barely people's Porter in the realm

1:28:50

of back when barely sexual chocolate was like a huge

1:28:52

thing. Like it's that but amped

1:28:55

up. And if we were talking about good and

1:28:57

plantings and like super European

1:28:59

execution, this feels

1:29:01

like something that you would get from Naka it feels like

1:29:03

something that you would like jump

1:29:06

across the pond to sample.

1:29:09

And if you do like that

1:29:11

bitter that roast

1:29:13

a throwback to the days of dark

1:29:15

surly darkness in a way, like a cleaner

1:29:18

lighter version of that.

1:29:19

In Sweden, they have this candy

1:29:22

called dunder salt, which is like salted

1:29:24

black licorice. It's reminds me of dunder

1:29:26

salt. So again, two Swedish

1:29:28

mentions in the episode

1:29:31

won't be the last either. No,

1:29:34

we talked to Joel and Spencer from brief

1:29:36

on the podcast about brewing wild eels a couple weeks ago.

1:29:39

And yeah, really like what they're doing down

1:29:41

there. So they're

1:29:43

they're getting accolades all over the place for

1:29:45

loss of their beers. Next on your list, you're

1:29:47

California and it's a West Coast

1:29:50

IPA.

1:29:51

Yeah, so we're going back to Oakland.

1:29:53

East Bay is seeing

1:29:56

a little bit of a renaissance of the cells. Trimmer

1:29:58

got their own tap room finally go in, you

1:30:01

know, seller makers got up, pizza joint going,

1:30:03

set to Darius, bought the trap. Like it's,

1:30:05

there's a lot of stuff like new stuff

1:30:08

happening in East Bay. So

1:30:11

imagine how good a single IPA

1:30:13

has to be to land on this list

1:30:16

because so many like local

1:30:18

hyper local IPAs are going to be within 20%

1:30:20

as good, 15% like it

1:30:23

is the most saturated, federally

1:30:25

entered market. But

1:30:28

this thing is just so focused.

1:30:30

Adjacent to a certain, you

1:30:33

know, world-class legendary

1:30:35

West Coast IPA maker that's

1:30:37

also selling beer into that market. So like you

1:30:40

got gold standards to go by and

1:30:42

how do you make a name, you know, in that

1:30:45

kind of environment?

1:30:46

God, I don't envy like

1:30:48

these small upstarts like Ghost Town, you

1:30:51

know, it's like they got big

1:30:53

corporate funding dogs like Lagunitas, they

1:30:55

got Russian River with like the giant Windsor

1:30:58

facility. And it's like they

1:31:00

just got to plant their flag. And this

1:31:02

hammer smash Citra is so

1:31:05

Citra forward, so simple, so

1:31:07

focused that people who don't

1:31:09

like bitter IPAs that like have

1:31:12

entered the market segment where their beer

1:31:14

journey begins and ends with hazy IPAs.

1:31:17

These are the types of beers that can

1:31:19

like be approachable to them without

1:31:22

being cloying without having a crystal backbone

1:31:24

of like sticky sweet malt. And

1:31:27

this thing just goes great. It's like has

1:31:30

so much like tangerine

1:31:33

and like like mandarin orange,

1:31:35

but also like enough of that classic

1:31:37

like green polo bottle cologne

1:31:39

or like earthy woodsyness to it

1:31:42

that like you can have several which

1:31:44

I

1:31:44

don't think you can say for some hazy IPA

1:31:46

purveyors. 100% right, I did an episode

1:31:48

with Justin Burt from Ghost Town, you know,

1:31:51

a couple months ago and got out there to Oakland. The

1:31:53

beers are amazing. And Ghost Town

1:31:55

also earned themselves a spot on their editor's

1:31:57

picks for Nose Goblin.

1:31:59

Just a tremendous beer

1:32:02

and the same kind of thing like it is

1:32:04

a double West Coast IPA and

1:32:06

yet it is so drinkable and

1:32:09

so nicely balanced. Neither

1:32:12

too bitter nor too sweet. 70 something

1:32:15

IBUs and yet it all

1:32:17

just pulls together in this smooth

1:32:20

oily cohesive package. Just a phenomenal

1:32:22

brewery. And I can tell that

1:32:25

our audience out there is interested because

1:32:27

that episode is our third

1:32:29

most

1:32:29

downloaded of the year. People

1:32:32

are paying attention. They're doing great work out

1:32:34

there. What's next on your list?

1:32:36

All right. We're going old school jumping way across

1:32:38

the pond and this seems like how

1:32:41

how did this where did this

1:32:43

come from like both on the list and both

1:32:45

in the creation. I heard

1:32:47

grumblings of this. We reported on this on Mulka

1:32:50

tour and I was like, I gotta try this thing. Roke

1:32:53

for triple extra. That's

1:32:55

right. A classic OG Trappist

1:32:58

beer swinging on

1:33:00

all of these like double barrel

1:33:02

aged and you know, you know, chin

1:33:04

barrel age like wild eels. This

1:33:07

is the first new beer that

1:33:09

Rokeford has introduced in something like 56 years. And

1:33:13

I was like, what what are they bringing

1:33:15

to market that they've just been sitting

1:33:18

on and simmering? And it's such

1:33:20

a weird merger of like this

1:33:22

Leitrin green cap, this Leitrin red cap.

1:33:26

You've got like a little pinch of like aloe

1:33:28

gash curio going on like some

1:33:30

traditional triple notes. It's

1:33:33

it's very hard to define. I guess you would just call

1:33:35

it like a Belgian strong, which is kind of

1:33:37

like a catch all. But

1:33:41

it's just got this like flawless carbonation,

1:33:43

the retention, the lacing that

1:33:46

you expect. Like for like cliche

1:33:48

goblet in the photo pour. But then

1:33:50

also it has like honeydew

1:33:53

and jazz apple. All

1:33:55

of these like really bright flavors, a

1:33:57

little pop of esters, which you all.

1:34:00

almost never get unless you're just drinking

1:34:02

not barely, not fruited, traditional,

1:34:04

like people

1:34:06

have moved so far away from that close

1:34:09

and like those like, you know, what

1:34:11

they used to call it like bubble gum,

1:34:13

like that was like the old

1:34:16

standby. But it has all

1:34:18

of that packed into a not barely age

1:34:20

just straight up Belgian gem like

1:34:23

it represents like so many so many of the

1:34:25

best parts of that entire segment. When

1:34:27

we were over in Belgium last February, February 2022,

1:34:29

we had some, you know, cafe over there

1:34:32

and yeah, it's fun to try, fun to try.

1:34:35

I'm right. Change doesn't come that

1:34:37

often. But man, we forget in the United

1:34:39

States just how powerful triple as

1:34:42

a style is like, that is the beer

1:34:44

everyone drinks in Belgium. Like it's just that

1:34:47

it's just beer, you know, that and Eupeler

1:34:49

but that's another thing. What's

1:34:53

next on your list? All right,

1:34:55

we're jumping back to Michigan wax

1:34:57

wings, these plucky little upstarts

1:35:00

in Kalamazoo. Speaking of people that have

1:35:02

to live in the shadow of giants

1:35:04

in their backyard. They have eked out

1:35:07

such a cool barrel age program.

1:35:09

I've done some lurking I look

1:35:11

and see. I'm always curious to you about

1:35:13

the culture of what surrounds

1:35:16

a brewery. And this

1:35:18

sounds like genuinely like Michigan locals

1:35:20

who chime in like you get the feeling

1:35:23

that these are not profiteers who are like

1:35:25

just trudging in from Indiana

1:35:27

to to score some bottles to flip.

1:35:30

They had a great community and this

1:35:32

beer height is a double mashed single

1:35:34

barrel stout and on paper.

1:35:37

Okay, well, or 12, whatever, like, you

1:35:39

know, it's like all of that sounds

1:35:41

like you're just checking boxes on things that

1:35:44

are industry standards that will get you to the hype level.

1:35:47

But the cool thing about this is it goes a lot

1:35:49

of dark fruit. It goes a lot of like seeing

1:35:52

Newton and date,

1:35:54

which you don't tend to see you almost see

1:35:56

that more and certainly in quads and

1:35:59

but certain Barrelic Barley

1:36:01

wines but it was so

1:36:03

cool because it was not what I was expecting

1:36:06

and it felt intentional. It felt

1:36:08

like they were servicing

1:36:11

a market that wanted one thing, that wanted brownie

1:36:13

batter and like to

1:36:15

give a curve ball that was just like

1:36:17

this warming and gentle, it

1:36:20

was really, really well done.

1:36:22

Nice, nice. What's next?

1:36:24

All right, so this is one of those

1:36:27

like, well, he brews

1:36:29

out at 12%, so like it's, you know, like

1:36:31

the same thing with timber ales and a bunch of people

1:36:33

brew it out at 12% in North Haven, Connecticut.

1:36:36

But the brewery is brand spanking new.

1:36:38

In fact, this was the first can run

1:36:41

that they did right

1:36:43

up the gates. I got their first beer. This

1:36:46

is Eredita and this is our Papa

1:36:48

Pils named after Chris Papayo's

1:36:52

father and it's like, okay,

1:36:54

he just chose to send

1:36:56

Pilsner, like they're kind of a bold move.

1:36:58

Usually, the boxes I get are packed

1:37:01

with, you know, like double waxed,

1:37:03

you know, like stuff like,

1:37:05

you know, like that really, really seek

1:37:07

to try and- Your tagline

1:37:10

is stay high gravity and so like it's

1:37:12

not a giant surprise that,

1:37:15

you know, that people send you those beers.

1:37:17

But here you are trying to appeal to the lager elites

1:37:20

with a lager pick right here. Right,

1:37:23

exactly. But- Shamelessly,

1:37:26

shamelessly

1:37:26

appealing. Pandering. Here I was just

1:37:28

dunking on them and like

1:37:31

I've got two on my list with if you

1:37:33

count the Baltic Porter. But

1:37:36

this beer, like you can see the chops

1:37:38

that Chris picked up from all his years

1:37:40

in Hill Farmstead. He brought that skill set,

1:37:43

put his own spin on it. Too

1:37:45

often, like modern American Pilsners,

1:37:49

like they're afraid and they over hop

1:37:51

it and they get into this IPL, this Italian

1:37:53

zone because they want people to have that comfort, that

1:37:55

familiarity or they're applying

1:37:57

a lacquer veneer to kind of fill in the- gaps

1:38:00

of any potential off flavors

1:38:02

or if there's something that wasn't quite

1:38:04

right. This is more stripped down. It's

1:38:08

less hoppy. It's almost like it wants

1:38:10

to lead with the Grand's Biscuit,

1:38:12

the water tracker. A

1:38:15

lot of those light effervescent holla

1:38:17

profile that are...

1:38:21

I don't know if this is... Is this a super regional

1:38:23

product? The Hawaiian rolls?

1:38:26

The Hawaiian sweet rolls? I don't know. We've

1:38:28

got King's Hawaiian rolls out here. Good,

1:38:30

good. Sometimes I'll reference

1:38:32

something and I wonder, is

1:38:34

that a Colorado, West of the Mississippi thing?

1:38:37

It went that realm and I was

1:38:40

just like, wow, this is the sheer

1:38:43

effortless crushability

1:38:45

of these but while maintaining control

1:38:48

and having a very satisfying complexity.

1:38:52

Just really well done. You have

1:38:54

one more beer on your list. Actually, you have two more but we'll get

1:38:56

to that one later on. The last of your top ten.

1:39:00

This is a team up. A microphone

1:39:03

teamed up with Goose Island which

1:39:06

if you told me eight years ago when I was first

1:39:08

on the show that

1:39:10

eight years ago, 2015, we were like three

1:39:13

years into the in-bev buyout, people

1:39:15

were... They would never collaborate

1:39:18

with Goose Island but microphone

1:39:20

did and they didn't make a Coca-Cola

1:39:23

beer. They didn't put like Earl

1:39:26

Grey Tea in it or Zested

1:39:28

Clementines. They made a straight

1:39:31

up, no frills, amazing barley

1:39:34

wine. It's not wax dipped.

1:39:36

It's not hyped. It comes in just a 16 ounce can.

1:39:40

I had no idea what I was in for with

1:39:42

this. The Double L.P.

1:39:44

side B is perhaps

1:39:47

the best beer that I've had for microphone and

1:39:51

ironically was even better

1:39:53

than the already phenomenal,

1:39:55

the Old Fifth Gerald Barley wine that came

1:39:57

out from Goose Island. this

1:40:00

last calendar year as well, which was like $50 and

1:40:03

this is just unceremoniously

1:40:06

and just like a blue and white can so Really

1:40:09

blew me away It just

1:40:12

had so much saturation and picked up

1:40:14

so much from the barrels Like

1:40:17

this there's like the almond Roca

1:40:20

and like just all of these like

1:40:23

Kind of like a chocolate chip pancake

1:40:25

sort of thing going on like not with the maple

1:40:27

like no no maple no coffee I'm thinking of that round

1:40:30

but like Madeira

1:40:32

like just dark fruit. It was just so

1:40:34

phenomenal and I I love

1:40:37

when things catch me off guard because Honestly,

1:40:40

I was like if this is going to goose's market.

1:40:42

They're gonna have to satisfy a different type

1:40:45

of consumer But

1:40:47

it was they brought both halves

1:40:49

of what they excel at and just crushed it.

1:40:51

That's awesome That's awesome. If you could

1:40:54

share a beer with one figure

1:40:56

in brewing, who would it be man?

1:40:57

Well as as we discussed

1:40:59

up top I have

1:41:02

you know been diagnosed with stage four cancer and

1:41:04

so the immutability and value

1:41:07

of time On the forefront of

1:41:09

my mind we talked so much about

1:41:11

time in terms of like aging Casking

1:41:14

entitlement to how much time he spent

1:41:16

in line and you know all these

1:41:18

these different Concepts of time and I