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0:22

It's episode 342 of the

0:24

Craft Beer and Brewing podcast

0:26

and for this episode, it's

0:28

the anniversary of our

0:30

what episode 286, which

0:33

was our West Coast IPA panel. And to

0:35

celebrate the anniversary, the one year anniversary of

0:37

that episode, I don't know why we're celebrating

0:39

a one year episode anniversary. That seems a

0:41

little egregious, but I mean, this is the

0:43

beer world, right? We have to turn everything

0:45

into a special event. And so

0:48

we'll turn this one into a special event

0:50

too. And no, no. Anyway, for this episode,

0:52

we're going to talk about Hazy IPA. We've

0:54

put a panel together with

0:56

the crew you know, plus a

0:59

new face and voice for this

1:01

episode. I'm talking all about

1:03

Hazy IPA. Joining me again, Kelsey

1:05

McNair from North Park. Welcome back to the

1:07

podcast, Kelsey. Thank you, Jamie. Happy to be

1:10

here. We've got Evan Price

1:12

back to talk about Hazy IPA this

1:14

time again. Welcome back, Evan. Pally,

1:17

hey, it's me. I guess

1:20

that's what I sound like. I don't know. I'm

1:22

done. Joining us new to

1:24

the podcast and new to this episode,

1:26

Steve Parker from Fidons. It is Fidons,

1:28

right? It is Fidons. Okay.

1:31

I pronounce it that way. And

1:33

people sometimes correct me incorrectly? Nope.

1:35

Okay. Perfect. You are correct. Steve

1:37

Parker from Fidons in what, Albany,

1:39

Greater Albany area in New York?

1:42

Yes. Yes. Well reputed

1:44

Hazy IPA beer. I mean, if we're going to talk

1:46

about Hazy IPA, we have to have an East

1:48

Coast representative. And so there you are. Yeah, I was

1:51

going to say I'm the only one. It's

1:55

like us having conversations about German lager brewing

1:57

with a bunch of American brews, right? This

2:00

is the circumstance we're in. Beer

2:02

is global. We're all making

2:04

it, and our interest is talking to, not

2:07

just single conversations that define everything, but

2:10

having lots and lots of conversations with

2:12

lots of talented brewers across the entire

2:14

spectrum. West Coast, East Coast, and whoever's

2:17

making it well, I have great Hazy

2:19

IPA in Mexico. These

2:23

days you can find, we've had really high

2:25

scoring Hazy IPA from Canada, Europe,

2:28

I mean, and so this is a global

2:30

phenomenon. It's not just a regional

2:32

thing anymore. Before we

2:34

get too deep in this, let me mention, we've tapped

2:36

into a special co-host also for

2:38

this episode, because it just wouldn't

2:40

be the same. And

2:43

so joining us to co-host this episode, maybe not

2:45

the biggest Hazy IPA maker in the country, but

2:47

certainly someone who knows his way around an IPA

2:49

or two, Vinny Chilurzo, welcome

2:51

again back, Vinny. Thanks,

2:54

Jamie, and thanks for asking me to co-host.

2:56

I really appreciate it. So, you know, I

2:58

was thinking about this. At Russian

3:00

River Hazy IPA, which is

3:03

pretty much one beer we make, mine circus

3:05

is about 2%, just under

3:07

2% of our production volume.

3:09

So it's not a huge amount. It never has

3:11

been, it's never been more than that. But I

3:14

kind of feel like I can learn something

3:16

from these guys. And so, you know, I'm looking

3:19

forward to hearing the three of these guys talk,

3:21

and it's my first time

3:23

tasting the Fiden beers, and they're

3:25

really great. I started drinking the

3:27

beers the other night and saved

3:30

the Hazy ones for now. So thank you for the

3:32

shipment. Not

3:34

a problem. Well, we had to bring you on

3:36

to co-host this one, Vinny, for two reasons. Number

3:38

one, no one's gonna lie to you or

3:41

be KG. You know, you

3:43

are the Oracle of Truth that

3:46

has the ability to pull these truths out

3:48

of everyone. And the other

3:50

reason is because this way, Evan couldn't cancel. I

3:55

was waiting for you to drop that again. It's so good. You

3:58

know, I had to do it because this episode, we were originally... scheduled

4:00

to record this. I wasn't going to tell this

4:02

story, but now because you want me to tell

4:04

this story, the genesis of all this, let's go

4:07

back. The genesis of it was Home BrewCon, right?

4:09

We were all pouring

4:11

beer at the Welcome Fest for Home

4:13

BrewCon. Joe Stang and

4:15

I were pouring the brewsertreat beers that we

4:18

made at the brewsertreat of Russian River, pouring

4:20

on behalf of Russian River. And right

4:23

next to us was Kelsey, and right next to

4:25

Kelsey was Evan, or maybe it was vice versa.

4:27

Anyway, after we poured beer for all the thirsty

4:29

folks at Home BrewCon, Evan pops

4:31

this idea out to us, like, we should do

4:33

a VIPA panel. And we're like, okay,

4:35

let's do that. And then some text happened.

4:38

It's like, well, let's record it in person

4:40

at GABF. And then the

4:42

day before it was supposed to happen, the text came, like, what

4:44

if we don't do it here at GABF? I

4:48

got so much FOMO about this whole idea

4:50

that I, I mean, I did a less

4:53

than 24 hour trip to Denver

4:55

on that one. And I was just

4:57

like, I'm gonna spend three hours locked

5:00

in a room for a podcast. And there's

5:02

just so many people I'm gonna try to

5:04

like, quickly see and all I

5:07

could dream about were just leaders

5:09

of beer Stadlager. And

5:11

maybe okay, so maybe next time we

5:13

just plan on podcasting a

5:15

beer Stad and then use a

5:17

little QR code thingy continue to get

5:20

slow pour over and over. I think

5:22

you can make it some make it

5:24

work somehow. I will

5:26

take that under consideration. Anyway,

5:28

we bailed on the live recording. But the

5:31

upside of that is that we

5:33

were able to bring Vinny in for this conversation as

5:36

a co host and also to

5:39

pay homage to our

5:41

history. We are going to talk about

5:43

hazy IPA in this episode. We're going

5:45

to get in deep on it before

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7:15

Where should we get the discussion started? Maybe

7:17

we start really quickly. Hayes IPA, big thing?

7:21

Still selling a lot of it? Still a driving

7:23

motivating factor for breweries? I mean, you know,

7:25

we heard West Coast is dead and then

7:27

all of a sudden people started drinking West

7:29

Coast IPA again. You

7:31

know, how's the balance now fit

7:33

for you guys? For North Park

7:36

we're definitely still selling a

7:38

ton of Hayes IPA. It

7:41

is our single Hayes

7:43

IPA, Art is Hard, which is sort

7:46

of a flagship in

7:48

that category for us. If

7:51

you factored in that we make a

7:54

lot of variants of that beer, We

7:57

do a bunch of different triple dry hopped versions.

8:00

The have like some added hard if

8:02

you are now committed all of the

8:04

different pod versions that we would do

8:06

over the course the your that that

8:08

would take the number one see. Our

8:10

in our tap room. On.

8:12

It's not quite as popular

8:14

in package compared to any

8:17

of the double or triple,

8:19

or even quadruple. Ah,

8:21

He the ip a that we

8:23

might release impacted but those beers

8:25

are like way more popular. In.

8:28

Package vs Draft on

8:30

site. Interesting how much you

8:32

haven't. Yeah, I mean we still

8:34

sell a lot as a Z I P

8:36

A. Which. I

8:40

want to save for I'm like, you

8:42

know, percentage wise it's probably still. Twenty.

8:45

Five to thirty percent of

8:47

sales for us? Something like

8:49

that. And. Yeah,

8:52

I mean we're releasing these

8:54

beers probably anywhere from anywhere

8:56

from our every week every

8:58

two weeks and so. We.

9:00

Don't make as we don't make as much

9:02

as. Mimic. More west

9:04

coast i be a is what I should say

9:06

at this point than we do a the I

9:09

gave that slip that a certain point for us

9:11

where we were definitely. Very.

9:13

Strong on a Vip A's and

9:15

then. I. Don't

9:17

know if people to stop

9:19

drinking less boozy beers but

9:21

you know. We were

9:23

just go into town with Aaa peers and

9:26

Double Ip is there for a moment and

9:28

does slow down a little bit for us.

9:30

other than today's release for doing this. You

9:33

know, demonstrate how easy to apply

9:35

p A with Omni point in

9:37

the findings, that and are so

9:39

many other and as few other

9:41

breweries that are on this thing

9:43

and yeah I think flying off

9:45

the shelf. But I digress up.

9:48

What? I mean, but Steve. I

9:51

feel like he's if he's gotta be your bread and

9:53

butter. It is one hundred

9:55

percent or bread and butter we'd are unaware.

9:57

hi I'm probably ninety two on on fiber.

10:00

The week and I would say

10:02

I'm almost all the tv. Here

10:06

are some we do like: Jasper's like

10:09

arm or number one seller on we

10:11

do about sixty barrels a Jasper a

10:13

month. You

10:16

James Axis. About. Forty

10:18

five barrels amount. Then there's another

10:20

fifteen barrels of just a Jasper.

10:22

Very. Either Southward Nelson

10:24

or featuring ah to see like a

10:26

double dry, I'm just for that drop

10:29

today. And. It's else. I

10:31

mean, it's between the tap room now

10:33

that we have the tampering factor, which

10:35

we didn't have for the first. Almost

10:37

four years everything's before that was

10:39

without a to be open up

10:41

our door people come and as by

10:44

chance out of Iraq burry on

10:46

your now we have that draft Thompson.

10:48

what's help smooth things a lot faster

10:50

Draft a Vip on draft is our

10:53

number one. Doubles is our number one

10:55

seller. ah followed by lager is

10:57

too. But. In

10:59

a week's pay These definitely as a

11:02

matter for sure I should note out

11:04

there for craft beer and brewing subscribers

11:06

who are listening or even those who

11:08

are not yet craft beer brewing subscribers.

11:10

that says Steve few years ago provided

11:13

a homebrew, skilled recipe for Jasper. There

11:15

are here to double Ipa it. If

11:17

you're a subscriber, you can access that

11:19

recipe on Beer brewing.com Okay, shameless plug

11:21

asked? ah but your O'hara dismiss right?

11:23

right? a minute. So if you'll see

11:26

that you should be a subscriber and.

11:28

You know, video mention two percent for our

11:30

for you. Yeah. We're We're just

11:32

a. Little little

11:34

small hazy ip a brewery

11:37

that. West Coast ip a

11:39

never died for us so I truly am

11:41

I I said earlier, I'm I'm looking for

11:43

the here and you know what? What?

11:45

You guys do what makes your

11:47

beers different. You

11:49

know I am. I know little bit more

11:51

about Eminem Kill Sees beers but Jamie would

11:54

you wanna may be started to top with

11:56

like the Grain Bill. You. know

11:58

i was thing and water you know i think Maybe

12:00

on this one, because

12:03

when we're talking about hazy IPA, water is

12:05

always an important subject in brewing, but it's

12:07

an extra important subject and a real game

12:09

changer, particularly in this

12:11

style and probably doesn't get talked about

12:14

enough in the nuances of that. So

12:16

maybe we'll start with you, Steve.

12:19

Since you're the new guy, when

12:21

you're thinking about hazy IPA, hazy

12:23

single IPA, hazy double IPA, where

12:25

do you start building water profile

12:27

for those? Right

12:30

now, it was a lot different than when I first started. Water

12:33

profile, I think when this whole

12:35

thing kind of jumped off out here in the

12:37

early 2010, 2011,

12:40

everybody was calcium, a bunch of calcium chloride,

12:43

as much as you could put in the

12:45

water. I've

12:47

changed drastically with that. I

12:51

kind of aim for soft water. For

12:54

me, it's kind of soft water, soft beer. We

12:57

always want our beer to be approachable

12:59

and drinkable. We've

13:03

cut back on our salts and our water profile.

13:05

We have pretty soft water at the brewery. Our

13:08

typical range, depending, is usually

13:11

125 of calcium chloride to

13:14

about 70, 75 sulfate ratio.

13:20

We always keep our total hardness below 350 ppm always. That's

13:27

just kind of how I've been doing

13:30

it. I really like the outcome.

13:33

How about your pH, your water pH?

13:35

Because that can really drive

13:38

some of the haze

13:40

stability. What

13:43

I know in doing a little bit

13:46

of research with some actual non-hazy IPA

13:48

brewers, asking them some German brewers, you

13:50

know, fight some type stuff. I'm just

13:52

curious where you're at and the other

13:55

two on the panel here. I

14:00

mean, I'm on our brewers. I'm

14:03

pretty crazy about pH. We got

14:05

to hit our pH throughout the whole process. We

14:07

take pH throughout the whole process. We are like

14:09

5'2 to 5'2 5' in the mash. Boil

14:14

kettle we will adjust. So after

14:16

I add my Whirlpool hops, we'll

14:18

adjust. Usually around after

14:21

the Whirlpool hops, we add around 5'2, we'll

14:23

adjust to with lactic acid down

14:26

to 5' for our knockout

14:28

pH. And then we always

14:30

check our pre-dry hop pH. Usually

14:33

it's got to be around 4' and the 4'3's. If

14:36

it's over 4'3, we'll knock it

14:38

down to some phosphoric. Down

14:41

around that 4' anywhere between 4'3, 4'3, 9' that's

14:43

kind of where we live. Evan,

14:47

how about you? I echo

14:49

a lot of things that he

14:51

just said, especially for pH.

14:53

Other than finished

14:56

beer pH, I prefer it

14:58

personally higher. We're

15:00

ending around 4'7 for these beers. You're

15:05

going to get us all in trouble. That's

15:07

the end. Look out.

15:09

Food safety. Don't

15:11

tell anyone. And Jamie,

15:15

I like one of the last

15:17

podcasts. Somebody was like, yeah, I

15:19

legally got this negre bedelo

15:21

recipe. And you're like, oh, cool. Yeah,

15:23

we won't tell anybody. It's like,

15:26

here we are on this podcast. Anyway,

15:28

yeah, so I echo

15:30

a lot of things there. I work

15:33

along on the brew house, same numbers.

15:36

We're also using lactic acid in

15:38

these beers to adjust pH on

15:40

the hot side. And then we

15:44

are, for salts, we're a

15:46

6 to 1 ratio of

15:48

chloride to sulfate. So

15:51

there's a certain amount of sulfate that's going to be in our

15:53

California water and building

15:56

that up in order to get

15:58

enough chloride to... balance things

16:00

out and I could

16:03

tell you some exact numbers

16:05

here that I have in front of

16:08

me and about 300 parts

16:10

per million on chloride and 50

16:13

on sulfate. I

16:15

didn't write down the rest for some reason but at

16:17

least I have that as my notes and

16:21

yeah I think a normal type of

16:23

thing that we're gonna do

16:25

for every beer where we are

16:28

making sure that the

16:30

carbon filter that we're using for this is

16:32

sized correctly so we don't have any chlorine

16:35

and we end up with

16:39

good tasting water on its

16:41

own but yeah the constant

16:43

monitoring of pH throughout the

16:45

entire brewing process is yeah

16:47

echoed with this beer style along with every other. Yeah

16:51

I mean no surprise we're

16:54

kind of in a similar place just

16:58

looking at our water from it's

17:01

always interesting because we certainly brew a lot

17:03

of collabs and I feel like that's one

17:07

thing that it's

17:09

either not a part of the conversation or

17:11

it ends up being a huge part of

17:13

the conversation when it comes to brewing hazy

17:15

IPAs and some brewers that we've talked to

17:17

really pushed that chloride envelope to a place

17:20

that I

17:22

don't prefer it when

17:24

it's super high but you

17:27

know we're pretty close to where

17:29

you are Evan you know our

17:31

chloride level target is 175 sulfate

17:36

at 75 and 125 calcium

17:40

and we're getting there everything's

17:42

coming out of an RO filter for us and

17:46

you know that water is about

17:49

40 ppm as it reads

17:51

off of the membrane and if

17:53

we weren't doing that

17:56

the water in San Diego is just

17:59

so inconsiderable. consistent because it's coming from multiple

18:01

water sources and it's changing day to day, you

18:03

know, not even month to month or seasonally. It's

18:05

just up and down and all over the place.

18:08

I get a water report emailed to me from the

18:11

local effluent and if you

18:15

were trying to, you know, make adjustments based

18:17

on that report, you know, lay it

18:19

out on a graph month over month, you

18:22

just don't know. But then

18:25

getting back to our process, we

18:28

typically target around a 5.4 pH

18:32

in the mash and

18:36

for most of our hazy IPAs, we're, you

18:38

know, making an end of boil adjustment

18:41

coming out of the kettle at

18:43

5.0. But

18:46

again, through some collabs and some

18:48

collabs with some very notable hazy

18:51

IPA brewers that we've done, they

18:53

always want to push up, up,

18:55

up. You know, I'm seeing like let's

18:57

come out of the kettle at 5.2, 5.25. Let's get that

19:00

pH, you know, in

19:05

the finishing spot closer to like 4.9. And

19:10

I'd say ours tend to finish at like 4.6, 5.4,

19:12

7. You know,

19:16

upward of 4.75. Yeah, so that's our approach. You

19:23

said a finishing pH of 4.9?

19:25

Yep. Whoo. Yeah,

19:28

I mean, if you already have a high pH

19:30

and then, you know, you've got a lot of

19:32

dry hops. Yeah, we talked

19:34

about this in the West Coast. It's, you know,

19:36

the pH is just going to drive up if

19:38

you're not making any adjustments. Steve, you had mentioned,

19:41

Steve, that early on you

19:43

used a lot more chloride. What made

19:45

you bring that

19:48

quantity down aside from hopefully

19:51

saving your stainless steel the stress

19:53

of all the chloride? I

19:56

noticed with the higher chloride, I was getting more

19:59

hot burn, hot bite on our beers.

20:02

And so as

20:04

I lowered it, I found that

20:06

I could aggressively hop these beers because

20:08

we hot pretty aggressively. And I

20:11

didn't get that bite. I mean, it was like,

20:13

we turned beers around pretty quickly, 14 to

20:16

16 days, and I would drink them day

20:18

of canning and they'd be just there'd be

20:20

no bite at all, maybe smooth. So

20:24

that's kind of why that was the

20:26

driving force for that change. I

20:29

love that, dude. That's such a, yeah,

20:32

what a cool move on

20:34

your part to not only realize

20:38

that, but then also make that change

20:40

and to see something come out

20:42

better on the other side. Like, you

20:45

know, there's just so many things that happen in our

20:47

industry where everyone is talking about

20:49

this certain procedure or ingredient

20:52

or whatever else. And a lot

20:54

of times you have to think outside of the box

20:57

a little bit with these, all these different variables. And

21:00

yeah, I love that comment. I'm

21:03

curious about this pH

21:06

question. From

21:08

a sensorial perspective, you know, 4, 6, 4, 7, 4,

21:10

8, 4, 9, you know, as you know, Kelsey, you

21:12

mentioned brewing

21:16

some of these and other collaborators wanting to

21:18

push these. What do

21:21

you get sensorially from

21:23

these, you know, these pH

21:25

levels that, you know, that creep up

21:27

like that? It's

21:30

interesting. I do think there's a rich... I imagine

21:32

it's all about hop, you know, expression, right? I

21:34

mean... It is. It is for sure. I think

21:37

that when we're, you know, ending up on the

21:39

lower zone, you know,

21:42

where we tend to land with most of our

21:44

beers, we get this really

21:46

nice expression of citrus, you know, that we're pulling

21:48

out of the hops. And there's

21:50

almost like a richness and

21:53

a more fullness to the body that you're

21:55

perceiving when that pH starts to creep up

21:57

and up. And

22:01

that's really kind of the differentiation point that

22:03

I'm finding is that these beers just

22:06

drank a bit fuller when that pH

22:08

is on the upper end of the

22:10

spectrum. But you

22:12

know, it's a trade-off because we are losing

22:14

a little bit of that acidic element. I

22:16

mean, you know, we're talking about, you know,

22:19

logarithmic scale. So it's so

22:21

much more, you know,

22:24

towards basic than it is acidic at

22:26

that point. By

22:29

going that much higher and you know, I've

22:32

got text messages from brewers where

22:34

they're like, oh, I just checked

22:36

the pH on this other brewer's

22:38

beer and check this out. Their hazy

22:40

IPA is like north of five and I'm

22:42

like, what the heck is

22:44

going on? You know, it's just it's

22:47

crazy. It's like it's higher than I

22:49

would come out of the kettle after

22:51

all the dry hopping. And

22:54

you know, it's but

22:57

then, you know, I'll kind of see like

22:59

what the overall consumer perception is of that

23:01

beer by jumping on untapped or something and

23:04

they freaking love it. And I'm like, wow,

23:06

okay, you know. And so but

23:10

for my palate and the way that we're designing our beers,

23:12

you know, I tend to favor that,

23:14

you know, kind of four, six, four, seven zone.

23:17

I think our beers drink really a

23:19

bit more crisp, a bit more refreshing,

23:21

you know, when we're in that in

23:23

that spot. Four

23:25

seven sounded like such a scoff law when

23:27

we started this conversation. And

23:29

now it seems like such a law abiding citizen. It's

23:34

still over the legal limit for

23:36

the FDA. It

23:41

is. It is. Let's

23:43

let's change gears and talk about grain

23:45

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23:48

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25:17

Let's talk about grain. Vinny, where should we start talking

25:19

about that? You know,

25:21

obviously, things like oats and

25:23

wheat are critical here, but

25:25

I'm curious, we've

25:27

heard over the last year or

25:30

two on the podcast here, lots

25:32

of West Coast IPAs are moving

25:34

towards Pilsner Base Malt.

25:37

Is that something all three of you are

25:39

doing for your hazy

25:41

IPAs all the way across the board? Or

25:44

do you maybe mix it up with some

25:46

like two-row versus Pilsner Malt? And

25:48

if it's Pilsner Malt, is it foreign

25:50

or domestic? Domestic meaning North

25:52

America. Yeah, I'm

25:55

super into this very

25:57

pale hazy IPA. personally.

26:00

So we're

26:02

doing our best to make the

26:05

white ale of hazy IPA

26:08

where we are using Gambrenus

26:11

Pilsner malt for these beers. Which

26:14

is really light in color. Some

26:16

of the lightest colored Pilsner malts I can get my hands

26:18

on. I want to say that's

26:20

Canadian on top of my head. And

26:23

then we've got flaked

26:27

wheat and we've got flaked oats

26:30

and those are the, oh wait

26:32

sorry, unmalted

26:34

wheat, not flaked wheat. So we have

26:37

unmalted wheat and we have

26:39

flaked oats. Man

26:41

I'm really throwing that out there. So

26:44

60% Pilsner malt, 30% unmalted wheat, 10%

26:46

oats and

26:51

then that ends up

26:54

making most of our hazy IPAs across the

26:56

board and then all we're

26:59

doing from there is using

27:03

Belgian candy sugar to bring

27:06

up, well let's

27:09

see on the hot side there is

27:11

some additions of depending on the ABV

27:13

where we will do start off with

27:15

a little bit of brewers

27:18

crystals to bump

27:20

up gravity and then we're

27:24

using Belgian candy sugar in the fermenter. That's

27:27

a pretty high load of

27:30

adjuncts, maybe much higher

27:32

than a lot of other brewers that I've

27:34

talked to over the past year or two.

27:36

Why put your brew staff through

27:39

that kind of challenge? And

27:41

I imagine you probably tested last two. What is

27:43

it about that kind of, you know

27:46

40% adjunct level

27:48

that are non-barley

27:51

grain level that, what does it

27:53

add to the beer, whether that's texture,

27:56

whether that's some flavor, etc. I

28:00

think the majority of the texture is honestly

28:03

hop related in this beer

28:05

style and but I'm

28:07

going to do my best in

28:09

all other areas to boost

28:12

that up as much as possible and so on

28:15

the grain side of things, you

28:18

know, there is absolutely an impact that you

28:20

can have

28:22

but yeah,

28:25

I think that that's where the oats

28:28

are really helpful. I mean, the un-malted

28:30

wheat I'm in love with for how

28:32

pale in color it is as well

28:34

as helpful stable

28:36

haze. We use bioglucanase

28:39

in these mashes in order

28:41

to not have

28:45

a sticky or long run off and so

28:47

that's the

28:49

saving grace for the brewers right there.

28:51

The moment we learned that trick, I

28:55

slept a little bit easier at night for

28:57

sure because we definitely had some hard days

28:59

there for a moment but yeah,

29:02

so that ends up being really helpful but

29:04

I think the mix of these just produces

29:06

a beer that is full, rich

29:09

and then also very pale with

29:12

this milky white haze to it that

29:14

I really appreciate. Did

29:16

you get a better extract when you

29:18

started adding the enzyme? Yeah,

29:22

absolutely. I mean, you know, we

29:24

got a run

29:27

off that was faster that

29:29

was almost identical

29:32

to our normal barley run

29:34

off and so in some of you know,

29:36

in our other beers and then yeah, I

29:41

don't think I mean, our efficiency on

29:43

these beers are not great because the starting

29:45

play dough is so high. I want

29:48

to say for our single hazy IP8 to 17

29:50

play dough starting

29:53

gravity because we are looking

29:55

for some good, a

29:58

good amount of finishing gravity to keep

30:00

the body on these beers

30:03

rich enough and with that mid-palate

30:05

sweetness. John, let's talk

30:07

about your kind of approach to grain.

30:10

Sure. Kind of

30:13

our base point recipe and

30:15

this does drift around but I'll just kind of

30:17

lay down the foundation and kind of talk about

30:19

some of the differences. So

30:22

for like a hazy single IPA or

30:24

even a double IPA, we're

30:26

usually around for a house recipe

30:31

60% pills and we like

30:34

briefs and

30:36

for the reason that Evan said,

30:38

I feel like the West Coast

30:40

hazy IPA is most assuredly trying

30:43

to be very milky

30:45

white pale. You

30:47

know, I see a lot of the New England style

30:51

IPA, you

30:53

know, getting more into the orange color

30:56

zone and I'm trying

30:58

to highlight hops here as much as I

31:00

can and I'm not looking for a

31:02

whole lot of supporting, you know, malt flavor so

31:04

I, you know, I tend to really focus on

31:06

the pills as the base. I

31:10

like faucet malted oats for

31:12

our adjunct of choice. They

31:15

do come with the husk unlike, you

31:17

know, crisp is a de-husked malted oat.

31:20

The color value on that is also

31:22

very low and it certainly

31:24

makes watering, you know, very nice and

31:26

easy because the husks are massive. And

31:30

then, you know, this was a trick that I

31:33

learned from Steve through

31:35

early collabs. We

31:39

use best chip malt and

31:42

that was kind of the first conversation I

31:44

had with Steve about brewing collab

31:47

was, man Steve, how the heck

31:49

do you get that really kind

31:51

of rich pillowy mouth

31:53

feel, you know, and

31:55

I'll let Steve talk more about that when

31:57

it's his turn. When

32:00

we brewed with that once I said, okay, this

32:02

is kind of a fold in for like all

32:04

of our hazy IPAs It's such a

32:07

hat trick like it's it's awesome and

32:10

It just drinks differently than say,

32:13

you know any any other dextrin

32:15

malt that I've tried So I

32:17

really enjoy that in the

32:19

in the recipe. We also like Evan

32:21

use brewers crystals Because

32:23

it doesn't add any color and you know

32:26

Doesn't add something that's totally 100%

32:29

fermentable You

32:32

know, we're just trying to get that beer so pale

32:35

and for like a hazy single IPA, you

32:38

know We're typically around 16 6 play-doh our

32:42

double IPA will take up to 20 and

32:47

You know, those are those are all

32:49

the fermentable happening on the hot, you

32:51

know hot side but

32:54

then when we go to You

32:57

know anything that the triple IPA Quadruple

33:00

IPA we even did a quintuple

33:02

IPA this year just

33:04

for fun for our anniversary When

33:07

we go north of 20 play-doh, we were

33:09

finding that Because we like

33:11

to harvest yeast and I know we'll talk about

33:13

yeast later So I won't go too deep into

33:15

it But we found that the vitality

33:18

viability drift was and

33:20

and the finishing gravity was so

33:23

inconsistent When we would

33:25

go north of 20 play-doh that

33:28

you know, I introduced, you know Belgian

33:30

technique of feeding

33:32

the fermentation and We

33:35

use Belgian candy sugar syrup for

33:38

the triples quads and etc And

33:41

we do those doses when we're adding the

33:43

dry hops You know

33:45

so that we're scrubbing the the o2 at the you

33:48

know at the same time. It's just convenient to do

33:50

that all in one step And

33:53

then you know to just kind of elaborate

33:56

bioglucanase. Yeah, absolutely that stuff's amazing. So we

33:58

use that too. We've been using that for a

34:00

long time. And you

34:03

know sometimes when we do collabs or

34:06

just want to you know get a

34:08

little bit more like deep you

34:10

know more complexity within some of

34:12

these grains you know sometimes

34:15

we'll use some faucet wheat malt, sometimes

34:17

we'll use flaked you know some flaked

34:19

oats, raw or flaked wheat. And

34:22

when we do that we're kind of cutting away

34:24

at the base you know

34:27

and obviously when you're adding in a lot of that

34:29

adjunct it is going to be at the expense of

34:31

some mash efficiency and we've seen some

34:33

of those mashes where it's like 40% base

34:37

you know might drop down into the

34:39

you know mid 60s for you

34:42

know efficiency. And boy

34:44

do my brewers hate graining out when

34:47

you've got this soupy, nasty you

34:49

know just oatmeal

34:51

that's just it wants

34:53

to unload the second you open up the mash

34:55

ton and hack it. It might even be you

34:58

know a bit dangerous if they're not

35:00

paying pretty darn close attention so you

35:02

know at your own risk obviously when

35:04

doing that type of thing. But we

35:07

do find that there is some element

35:09

of viscosity

35:13

you know kind of fluffiness that you

35:15

get when you really start pushing heavy

35:17

heavy heavy on the oat and the

35:19

wheat and a

35:21

variety of them. Those beers are

35:23

very enjoyable but yeah they are a pain in the butt

35:25

to make. I got one

35:28

more question Kelsey on the base

35:30

malt. I remember from our West

35:32

Coast IPA panel last year you

35:34

were talking about if I remember

35:36

correctly the wiremen, the extra pale premium

35:39

pills if I remember is that

35:41

correct? Yeah and then you just mentioned

35:43

the Breeze pills here. Why the change

35:45

and is the color like

35:47

similarly light for the Breeze? It's been

35:49

a while since I've used the Breeze

35:51

but I remember it being light but

35:54

I just can't remember. Yeah it's I

35:56

mean on the spec sheet it's like 1.2 so it is the

35:58

light. lightest colored one

36:01

I've found and that was

36:03

the reason that I tried it in the first place and

36:06

just kind of stuck with it. You

36:09

know, like I said, not looking for

36:11

malt flavor, just looking for a foundation

36:14

and in the interest of trying to get

36:16

that color as low as possible. You

36:19

know, if I could find a lighter colored base malt, I

36:21

would give it a try just

36:24

because, you know, and that was the other thing like the

36:27

faucet wheat malt was the lowest

36:29

colored wheat malt I could find. It's

36:31

a little hard to get though because not all of the,

36:33

I'm sorry,

36:36

Country Malt Group warehouse

36:38

is stock it so it's a special order item

36:40

for us. But

36:42

yeah, that's the reason.

36:46

I like the results and didn't really find a

36:48

reason to shift. The

36:50

price point too is

36:53

obviously better than the extra pale

36:55

pills from environment without sacrificing quality

36:57

in the beer. All

36:59

right, Steve, tell us more about this chip

37:01

malt that Kelsey stole your thunder on. No,

37:05

it's a well, yeah, I can I guess I'll

37:07

start with my base. I'm on the opposite end.

37:10

We use two row for all of

37:13

our beers. Raw two row. Why?

37:17

I've I like it. We've done

37:19

Pilsner. We've

37:21

done I've brewed Jasper with Pilsner and

37:23

Jasper with two row and I enjoy

37:26

the two row better. I

37:29

think we still achieve that color

37:31

because today everybody drinks with

37:33

their eyes first. I also think a lot of

37:35

the color depends on the hops that you're using

37:38

as well. For

37:40

us at least. And

37:42

I don't mind that little malt sweetness

37:44

in the beer. I think it gives

37:46

a little bit of that juice kind

37:48

of aspect with

37:50

that aggressive hopping and kind of also

37:52

with the aggressive hopping. I think that

37:54

little bit of sweetness helps balance it

37:57

and kind of gives you that full. aspect

38:00

of drinking the beer. So that's

38:03

kind of, we've, our brewers and

38:05

I have sensory Pilsner beers and two row

38:07

beers and just for us, our personal preference

38:09

for what we do, we stick with two

38:12

row. And then we're only, we're about

38:14

75% two row in

38:17

our base, 20% oats,

38:20

flaked oats and then 5% chip.

38:24

The chip malt was just

38:26

something I stole from the

38:28

Scott Janis book back

38:30

in the day and I

38:32

didn't use it at first and then when we started using

38:34

it we noticed mouth feel was better and we

38:39

just been using it ever ever since and

38:41

it's just been great. Love

38:43

that chip malt idea. Yeah,

38:45

I'm here to learn to. What do you find the

38:47

difference between

38:53

Chit and say, Dextrin,

38:56

you know, Carapils from Breeze or

38:59

you know any number of malt

39:01

companies. BSG, you know, Rar has

39:03

Dextrin and a European companies. I

39:07

couldn't really tell you, it's just we've used it and

39:10

I've liked it and I want to say

39:13

something in the IPA book talked about

39:16

how it can help with beer stability

39:18

that Scott found out and it's

39:21

stuff so that's kind of why we stuck with

39:23

it. Don't quote me on that but we

39:26

just we've used, we've been using

39:28

it for pretty much, we started

39:31

using it about six seven months into opening

39:33

the brewery and we have it stopped. Who's

39:35

your vendor for the chip malt? We've used

39:38

it before, I can't remember who makes it

39:40

though. Country malt, best. That's

39:42

what I thought. Yeah,

39:44

that one has a much lower extract

39:47

than most of the Dextrin malts, it's

39:49

like 27 points per pound per gallon

39:52

whereas I think most of the other Dextrin malts are like 32

39:54

to 34 and I think there was something

40:00

in you know I'm

40:03

pulling this out of the back of my head so

40:05

I what I've what

40:07

I remember reading was that

40:10

there's some style precursors in

40:12

that malt that might

40:15

make their way through that could

40:17

also contribute some interesting flavor characteristics

40:19

downstream. Steve have

40:21

you ever made a beer without the chip

40:23

malt and then like done a side-by-side and

40:26

then also was the foam different there because

40:28

it I know chipmalt. Foam was different yes

40:30

that was a big thing we

40:34

weren't getting that the foam wasn't as nice without

40:36

the chipmalt I mean we have made beers this

40:38

strictly two-row and I've loved them and they

40:40

tasted great and but once

40:43

we started out the chipmalt the foam was

40:45

drastically better. Alright so you should see a

40:47

10% discount on your

40:49

next chipmalt order since everyone's gonna

40:51

be ordering it Steve. Just like

40:54

the Wireman premium pills after Kelsey

40:56

gave it a plug last year.

40:58

Oh yeah Kelsey you couldn't

41:00

even order that anymore right? No

41:03

I went to order it right

41:05

after the podcast went live and

41:07

and our CSR at Ben at

41:09

BSC he's like oh he's like

41:12

all the warehouses are out of that

41:15

one. Nice job you

41:17

you kind of

41:20

stepped on your own toe. I

41:22

did. Steve I'm curious about is your

41:24

you know 25% adjunct you're you know

41:26

good 15% you know put 15

41:30

points under someone like Evan you know

41:33

and yet as I'm drinking them side-by-side here

41:35

you know I wouldn't you're not

41:37

giving up any kind of you know

41:40

body or you know

41:42

smoothness I mean it's there's

41:47

what's what do you think is is

41:50

you know making the difference here they're both

41:52

equally hazy in fact yours actually might

41:54

be a little little like more murky

41:56

yeah then that kind of hay side

41:59

which What are you drinking? Uh,

42:04

fill in the blank. No, that one's

42:06

not the... Oh, I should drink something

42:08

easier. Okay, okay. Well, that's just a

42:11

lower... That's a single dry

42:13

hop level. That's not the, like, you

42:15

know, the big daddy levels, you know?

42:17

All right. Let me pour some swim

42:19

tests just so that we can... There you go. I'm

42:22

just saying apples to apples here, you know? All

42:24

right. Dead equivalent. Dead equivalent.

42:26

Okay, there we are. I

42:30

think a lot of the color comes from the hops during

42:33

dry hop. I mean, we will

42:35

pull pre-dry hop samples, and

42:38

they all look the same. And then,

42:40

like, there's certain hops that I know

42:42

when I use it. And we've changed

42:44

our recipes and our dry hopping, because

42:46

today it's so much about what

42:49

that beer looks like at first. People

42:51

will look at a beer that, like Kelsey

42:53

was saying, that's a little more orange. You'll

42:55

say, oh, it's oxidized. And it's like,

42:57

no, it's not oxidized. It

43:00

is sometimes the color. Certain

43:02

hops just don't give you that color. So we've learned that

43:04

over the years. What hops are your

43:06

biggest offenders in color? And we're not going to

43:08

talk about the rest of hops, but yeah. Wait,

43:11

you're saying color or are you referring

43:13

to haze? Because, like, haze...

43:17

I guess haze, I would say.

43:19

Absolutely. Different, like,

43:21

having different levels of haze is

43:25

something that is frustrating for

43:27

us brews. Consistently

43:29

makes it, which I'm excited to get into

43:31

haze conversation at some point. But yeah, sorry.

43:34

Go ahead. Yeah, no, there's just some. Mosaic

43:37

is one that is usually just a hot side one

43:40

for us most of the time now, because that does

43:42

not give us that haze. Strata

43:44

happens to be another one. Simcoe

43:46

slightly. Simcoe is okay if you pair it with some

43:48

other ones. But I mean, we

43:50

can get deeper in that in the hop conversation. But

43:53

that's... And then again,

43:55

too, with the higher, the 75%, it goes back to... To

44:01

me, I think sometimes the

44:03

heavy proteins are going too protein heavy

44:06

and a grisk can sometimes give you hot burn.

44:10

A lot of studies talk about how the polyphenols

44:12

hold on to that protein and it's harder to

44:14

drop out. So that's

44:16

something that we've just kind of stayed away from and

44:19

that's kind of been since day one and

44:21

it's worked for

44:23

us. Yeah, that goes back to the

44:26

work that John Paul May did

44:29

at Steiner and I believe it's

44:31

the xanthohumule, if I said

44:33

that correctly, if I'm remembering correctly, the

44:35

polyphenol that really is that kind

44:38

of emulsifying binder and I

44:40

can see that. And

44:42

for what it's worth, Steve, I just did

44:45

a quick chat GPT on the

44:47

hazy IPA recipe, 26% roughly.

44:51

I was just having a little

44:54

fun there. Well

45:01

I mean if you just to kind of

45:03

maybe roll into the haze conversation, if you

45:06

talk to some European

45:08

brewers that are making wheat

45:10

beer, that sort of thing,

45:12

whether it's Belgian or

45:15

German or whatever, I mean a

45:17

lot of them are talking about using

45:20

less than that. And

45:23

so I mean obviously it works either

45:25

way because you guys

45:27

are, all three of you are doing it

45:29

differently with our

45:31

two west coasters being a little bit higher but

45:35

obviously the 25%

45:37

works just well and I've heard others being

45:39

a lot less also. Yeah, we

45:41

go less in some beers, we do

45:44

go more in some but on average

45:46

it's right around that. So

45:49

a quick yes or

45:51

no answer. You can't give

45:53

me a long drawn out Evan

45:55

like explanation. Yes or no. Have

45:58

you ever had a hazy IPA that you finish? finished

46:00

that ended up being clear. Yes.

46:04

Steve? I would

46:06

say yes. And

46:09

Kelsey? Yes. Yeah.

46:12

This to me was the hardest thing.

46:14

I mean, when we started making a

46:17

hazy IPA, that was the

46:19

biggest challenge. I personally found this to be

46:21

one of the biggest challenges in my brewing

46:23

career. Yeah. Yeah. Because

46:26

at some point, gravity wants to take effect. So how do you

46:28

get that those, you know, those

46:30

really fine proteins to stick and not be

46:32

these big giant proteins that just want to

46:35

fall out? So like, hey, what did what

46:37

did you do with that beer? I

46:40

think this happens more than

46:42

we think or want to admit

46:45

with our peers in the industry. So what did

46:47

you do with that beer? And

46:49

also, did you figure out what it was?

46:52

Because like I said, that to me was

46:54

the biggest problem when trying

46:56

to figure out this hazy IPA thing, the

46:59

true challenge. So, Steve, how

47:01

about you? Oh, me? So

47:04

far, I think it goes back to that conversation we just had

47:06

with the certain hops. It was one

47:08

of the hops that I we have found out that does

47:10

not create that that

47:12

haze in a beer or

47:14

it does not stay very long. So

47:17

that's why I do not use

47:19

those. And it's just it's just learning

47:22

where to use the hop, I think is the important

47:24

thing with this style. And

47:28

so it was a all mosaic

47:30

beer and then it dropped. I mean, it

47:32

wasn't crystal clear, but it wasn't hazy. Right.

47:35

So I'll counter that. And maybe all three of

47:37

you can chime in. So

47:40

a German or a Belgian

47:43

hazy wheat, you know, Belgian wit

47:45

beer, Belgian hefeweitzen, they don't

47:48

have hops to lean on. So

47:50

and there is that is

47:52

there anything have you guys have thought about

47:54

that? And how maybe, you know,

47:57

they don't have the hot polyphenols to lean on that.

48:00

to go in other directions and maybe

48:02

that's a place for us American

48:04

brewers to learn, you know, or he's

48:06

the idea brewers to learn. I

48:09

mean I feel like they're looking for a different

48:11

level of haze than what we're looking for though,

48:13

like you know, for

48:16

you to create something that's this

48:18

milky and like, I mean

48:20

milky is always kind of the term I use

48:22

whenever I refer to the

48:25

haze level in our beers but like when

48:29

you're talking about a lot of these beers

48:31

in regards to the haze level, I have

48:33

advice and absolutely in traditional

48:35

beer sense has haze to

48:37

it but

48:40

finding that level

48:43

consistently throughout from bottle to bottle

48:45

or whatever else depending on shelf

48:47

life, you're going to see that

48:49

haze change at

48:52

least in my experience and you know, but

48:55

in regards to these hazy IPAs, I mean we're

48:57

talking about a haze level that was

49:00

so extreme and so laughable

49:03

that it became, you know,

49:06

among brewers everywhere just

49:08

like, wait, you're putting that beer

49:10

out and it looks like that and you're

49:12

like, yeah, yeah, that's actually the goal and

49:14

it's just like, I don't

49:17

understand and it's like, you know,

49:22

it's such a, obviously a

49:24

craze that happened and everything else but it was just like,

49:26

I don't know, I don't

49:28

think that, I don't think that they, I understand,

49:31

I totally understand your question, Vinny,

49:34

but I don't think they

49:36

relate enough together because the

49:39

fill in the blank beer is an example

49:41

that Jamie was just

49:43

pouring. That's wonderfully

49:45

hazy for a half a bites and as

49:47

an example, it's hazier than a

49:50

half a bites and you would get for the, on

49:52

the hazy IPA front

49:54

on the other hand though, I think

49:56

that that specific beer is

49:58

a little bit. Lighter on

50:01

haze than other examples that we

50:03

make because it's only a single dry

50:05

hopped beer and The

50:07

heavier we're going on these hops the more

50:09

extreme that that haze can become and

50:12

and and so that really is one of

50:14

the differentiating procedures

50:17

that you guys Use

50:20

a green sheet because like the more dry

50:22

hops tends to drive that heavier more

50:25

milky haze, which is a term I

50:27

use that as well. Well,

50:29

I was good. Yeah, I mean I just I remember Let's

50:32

see. I think it was in 2016.

50:34

I tried making my first hazy IPA

50:36

with our friends at seller maker and

50:40

Tim at the time didn't realize I

50:42

don't think or he didn't

50:45

want to tell me that they he was using a haze positive

50:49

USO 5 or Chico strain and We

50:54

tried making this this

50:56

daisy IPA by using

51:00

Chico yeast a different

51:02

a normal one and just

51:05

making a slurry of a flower slurry and

51:07

putting it in the kettle

51:09

and I mean we got

51:11

labels made and everything over this for this beer. This

51:13

was pre green cheek and This

51:16

beer comes out and it's like It's

51:19

as clear as any IPA we've ever made and

51:22

it was just laughable I'm

51:25

obviously not at the time. We were very really upset

51:27

but This long

51:29

slow process of continuing to like especially

51:31

at that time try to find information

51:34

In order to figure out how to make the beer the

51:37

way that we're talking about right now a

51:40

lot of mistakes just like that were made over the years,

51:42

but I think one of the biggest things

51:45

for us at our brewery is Dry

51:47

hopping at the correct time is

51:49

very important with so that there's

51:51

activity happening for the yeast there

51:54

still needs to be enough of a

51:56

cell load in there and I wish I had a specific

51:59

cell count to to give but I

52:01

don't and then

52:03

the amount of hops is so

52:05

important where if both

52:07

those things don't line up correctly, we end

52:09

up with a beer that doesn't have

52:12

the entire look

52:15

that the people that

52:17

are wanting to drink these beers are looking for.

52:19

Yeah and what did you do with that batch

52:21

that wasn't hazy that felt clear

52:23

unfortunately, not the seller maker one but just

52:25

in general like. We dumped it like you

52:27

know we couldn't you know whenever you have

52:30

a beer that is a perfect

52:32

tweener where the west

52:35

coast crowd isn't going to drink it and then

52:37

the hazy IPA crowd is not going to drink

52:40

it, you just kind of have

52:42

to count your losses because you're going to have such a tough

52:44

time trying to pretend to figure out

52:46

a way to sell that. We've

52:49

purposely made tweener beers before

52:52

or we've called soft IPAs and

52:56

those have been on purpose but for the

52:58

beers that we've tried to make hazy IPAs

53:00

and they've dropped clear like down

53:03

the tubes. Yeah. I'm

53:05

curious about this as many was mentioning like

53:07

these you know larger proteins tend

53:10

to you know precipitate out. Are

53:12

you all using any mash

53:15

strategies in particular to try

53:17

you know to pull

53:20

smaller and smaller you know protein

53:25

out of that mash process which would

53:27

theoretically you know produce more stability in

53:30

the finished beer. Yeah

53:32

we do not. What did

53:34

you say Kelsey? We

53:37

do use Brutan B in

53:41

the mash for these beers and

53:44

you know that helps to situlating

53:48

agent like Oak Tannen and

53:52

it helps coagulate some

53:54

proteins so I do

53:56

think that downstream that's helping.

54:00

I introduced that in these because

54:02

as I was seeing our beer

54:04

kind of migrate in

54:06

cans and forward

54:09

thinking, that

54:12

particular product is supposed

54:15

to encourage shelf stability.

54:18

And when I started using it, I was

54:21

more thinking about our barrel aged beer program

54:24

where we were putting Imperial stouts in

54:28

spirit barrels. And

54:30

so that was kind of a mash process

54:32

that we use there and

54:35

then kind of plug that into

54:37

the hazy IPA program. How

54:40

about you Steve? No,

54:42

we do not. Alright,

54:45

that's it. I don't mean we don't,

54:47

no we just do regular mash, no

54:49

we don't use anything in the mash

54:51

for anything. Fair enough. We

54:54

pasteurize all of our work. You

54:58

know about pasteurization in haze though, right?

55:03

It's a way to kind of

55:05

break the protein and you can

55:07

create, I think there's a

55:10

lot of European breweries making

55:12

like German

55:14

wheat beer that are going

55:16

that route to try to

55:20

get a permanent haze and I

55:22

know there's American breweries doing it as well. But

55:26

I know you guys are all small

55:28

breweries and you don't have a pasteurizer

55:30

just sitting around either. Well

55:32

let's shift gears and talk about hot

55:34

side and which is really just whirlpool,

55:36

right? So let's switch gears,

55:38

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57:03

let's talk about getting into

57:05

the hot side there. Are any

57:08

of you all setting

57:10

up some initial bittering charges or do

57:12

you just roll right through the boil

57:15

into Whirlpool before anything fun starts happening?

57:18

We'll do like a 10 to 15, 60 minute charge

57:23

and then just go to Whirlpool

57:25

after that. We Whirlpool at 2 pounds

57:27

per barrel. Evan? Yeah,

57:31

we depending on the beer, we have

57:33

some beers that are some of

57:35

our bigger beers where we're

57:37

doing little sprinkle

57:40

additions throughout to

57:42

just help build a fullness during

57:45

the boil but 90 whatever

57:49

percent of the rest of the time it's a

57:51

Whirlpool only addition and it's a dipped Coolpool

57:56

addition as well and so We're

58:00

typically bringing that whirlpool down to temperature

58:02

to 165 degrees after the boil. We

58:09

are throwing

58:11

in hops. We

58:13

go pretty light on whirlpool. We

58:16

pull most of those hops to the fermenter instead.

58:19

So usually, depending

58:22

on whether it's single, double, or triple, we're not

58:24

going to go over a pound

58:26

per barrel in that

58:29

addition. One

58:31

of the things that we've been

58:33

having fun with are these liquid

58:36

hop concentrates.

58:40

So we have incognito or 702 trial from

58:42

YCH. So

58:45

there's this fun trick that we learned from our

58:47

friends at Range out of

58:50

Australia where there's

58:53

a really small addition of pellets

58:56

that go in with the 702

58:58

trial into the

59:00

whirlpool. So you throw

59:02

in a pound on our system. We

59:05

have a 20 barrel kit that we're brewing

59:07

most of our hazy IPAs on out

59:09

of our Costa Mesa brewery. So

59:12

we'll throw in one pound of hops.

59:14

We'll throw in, say, two

59:16

kilograms of 702 trial. And

59:20

then this small amount

59:22

of pellets just helps keep

59:24

everything in the wort and it doesn't end up

59:26

sticking on the sides of the kettle. Without

59:30

just that small amount of pellets, we're

59:32

just like me and Kelsey

59:34

have talked about this a million times and how

59:37

useless it is to try to throw that stuff

59:39

in the whirlpool. So we've been

59:41

enjoying throwing that

59:43

in, especially for hazy IPAs because

59:45

there's a Roman flavor, so

59:47

much a Roman flavor that we're able to get out of that instead of sort

59:50

of this tactile bitterness that we're

59:53

not looking for in this style necessarily

59:55

for the most part. And so that's

59:58

been really fun. And

1:00:00

then there's obviously more additions down the

1:00:02

road from there. But since we're really talking about Whirlpool,

1:00:04

that's what we do. Kelsey, what

1:00:07

about you pal? Yeah,

1:00:10

our we're a little limited

1:00:12

with our our kettle It

1:00:16

doesn't have a good diverter

1:00:18

system for pellets and typically

1:00:22

We're lucky if we can get away with a

1:00:25

little more than one pound per

1:00:27

barrel in the Whirlpool Otherwise

1:00:30

we end up having to make a

1:00:32

few extra barrels of work in

1:00:34

order to you know, knock out a full tank Which

1:00:38

which we generally do but you

1:00:41

know, it's we don't try to you

1:00:43

know, our Brewhouse is 15

1:00:45

barrels. We're usually making 19 barrels of

1:00:47

work Which

1:00:50

ends up being concentrated by

1:00:53

a couple barrels so we do water back

1:00:57

But yeah, that's that's kind of our hot

1:00:59

side process most of the time and Yeah,

1:01:04

we kind of target like Steve

1:01:06

said somewhere around like 8 to

1:01:09

10 IBU from from an

1:01:11

early bittering edition but to

1:01:13

that end Like

1:01:16

21 we got metal

1:01:18

at JBF for Artis hard And

1:01:22

that beer actually had no hot

1:01:24

side hopping in the kettle at

1:01:26

all Everything

1:01:29

happened post there was no bittering

1:01:31

charge. There was no Whirlpool and

1:01:35

maybe a segue to the next part

1:01:37

of the conversation, but you know the Concentrated

1:01:41

flowable hot products technique that I

1:01:43

talked about in prior

1:01:45

podcasts was Definitely

1:01:48

a key component of that beer at that

1:01:50

time. We've since introduced

1:01:52

a Small

1:01:55

bittering charge in that beer like

1:01:57

10 10 IBU's but

1:02:00

everything else is happening on the kettle. When

1:02:03

we do that at our brewery

1:02:05

on the brew sheet, it says

1:02:07

NP-style, whatever we're

1:02:09

doing, our incognito or 702

1:02:11

trial edition. And

1:02:15

then I'd try to draw a picture of you

1:02:17

Kelsey with the little crown on next to it

1:02:19

as well. It

1:02:21

works out pretty well. The brewers understand immediately. What

1:02:24

you're going for, yeah, yeah. So

1:02:27

do any of you use concentrated

1:02:31

pellets like Cryo

1:02:33

or CGX on the hot side? And

1:02:35

do you see it in

1:02:37

conjunction with a cool pool? Cause it sounds like

1:02:39

all of you are doing some sort

1:02:41

of cool pool technique. Do

1:02:43

you see an added benefit that that adds

1:02:47

a haze positive quality to your

1:02:49

beer? Who wants to go

1:02:51

first? Well, you

1:02:53

can since, yeah. Sure, I mean, we

1:02:55

don't focus too

1:02:58

much on world pool hopping for these

1:03:01

beers honestly, but like if

1:03:04

we are gonna use, at

1:03:06

this point, if we are, when we use

1:03:08

something like Cryo or

1:03:10

CGX or whatever, that we

1:03:12

are bringing down

1:03:14

the load, honestly,

1:03:17

because we're concerned about the overall

1:03:19

balance of the beer and

1:03:23

on the other hand, like, you know, West Coast IPA, you know,

1:03:25

put it in there. We want that bitterness and everything

1:03:28

else, but I

1:03:30

don't, at this point, if

1:03:32

we could, I feel

1:03:34

like if we could drop that temperature, the

1:03:37

world pulled down even lower and didn't feel

1:03:39

like we were gonna contaminate every

1:03:41

single beer after that, we

1:03:44

would drop it even lower and try something, but I'm

1:03:47

going as low as I can go at this point. Yeah.

1:03:50

Hey, Kelsey on the

1:03:52

NZ Hop Fu, is that hazy? Does

1:03:54

that end up being hazy or

1:03:57

does that end up being clear? No, that's

1:03:59

a clear. I've seen

1:04:03

and heard from some other brewers that sometimes

1:04:05

like some of those New Zealand hops in

1:04:07

a cool pool end up throwing

1:04:10

some haze. We've certainly seen it

1:04:13

as well and just curious

1:04:15

but that one is clear for

1:04:17

you. Yeah, it does clear up.

1:04:19

I mean that one gets, you know, it gets

1:04:21

bio-fine. We don't have a filter or anything. Right.

1:04:25

We've also seen like low level haze

1:04:29

from certain hops for sure

1:04:31

and like West Coast IPAs or New

1:04:33

Zealand IPAs or whatever or just clear

1:04:36

IPAs but the, it's

1:04:38

typically not, I guess

1:04:41

in this point in craft beer even when

1:04:43

that haze is slightly there

1:04:46

for those beers, there's

1:04:48

nothing that I'm personally gonna do about

1:04:50

it to try to change that because

1:04:53

people can still look at that and know they

1:04:56

are definitely not getting a hazy IPA when

1:04:58

you know, again, it like looks like this.

1:05:03

Anything else to outside or should

1:05:05

we start talking about the Kelsey

1:05:07

method of dry hopping? And

1:05:11

P-style. And P-style, right. We're

1:05:13

just gonna embarrass Kelsey here. I should say this

1:05:15

is Vinny's term. This is Vinny's term. It's so

1:05:17

easy. It's so easy to embarrass him. It's, it,

1:05:19

oh, it's great. That's

1:05:21

what we're here for. Yeah.

1:05:24

Let's move to fermentation. Yeah. Let's

1:05:26

get into fermentation and dry hopping. You

1:05:28

know, Kelsey, why don't you, it sounds

1:05:31

like you use the same process here

1:05:33

that you use on West Coast IPAs for your

1:05:35

hazy IPAs or at least a similar

1:05:37

process. How does it vary? Yeah,

1:05:41

we do. The dosing rate, you

1:05:44

know, when we're talking about global concentrated

1:05:47

products that we're knocking

1:05:49

out onto a dip

1:05:51

hop, we typically

1:05:54

stick to around one

1:05:57

kilogram per turn.

1:06:00

And like I said, we're usually kettle full

1:06:02

at 19 barrels

1:06:04

that knock out and might knock out 17.5 into

1:06:06

the tank. We've

1:06:10

gone as high as 2 kilograms and

1:06:14

some of those beers are awesome but

1:06:17

expensive. And

1:06:20

so we kind of save that for special

1:06:22

projects. But yeah, I

1:06:24

mean it's very similar to what I've

1:06:27

described before where we're taking about 3

1:06:29

quarters to a full barrel of work that

1:06:32

is sitting at our cool full temp of about 165

1:06:34

to 170 degrees. We're

1:06:37

sending that through the heat

1:06:39

X into a tank that already

1:06:41

has the flowable pre-loaded. We'll

1:06:44

let that steep for a few moments. We'll

1:06:47

continue to knock out at

1:06:49

an adjusted knockout temperature that'll get

1:06:51

us to our target pitching temp.

1:06:56

The one thing that you have to

1:06:58

keep in mind when you're utilizing this

1:07:00

process is you will have a stratified

1:07:02

layer of hot work that's

1:07:05

at a temperature that will kill your yeast.

1:07:08

So if you're pitching in the top

1:07:10

or something with a fresh pitch or

1:07:13

otherwise, you absolutely need to burp

1:07:17

the tank through the cone with some

1:07:19

CO2 which if you

1:07:21

do this for about 30 seconds and

1:07:23

we've trialed this when the

1:07:25

work is at the man way door level. So

1:07:27

you can actually put your hand on

1:07:30

the door and feel that it

1:07:32

is exceedingly hot.

1:07:36

About 30 seconds of bubbles through the cone at

1:07:39

maybe 20 PSI is enough to

1:07:42

cause a homogenization and

1:07:44

bringing it to a temperature where the

1:07:46

tank is pretty safe to

1:07:49

go ahead and pitch. So

1:07:53

we're still getting up to speed with some of

1:07:55

this equipment on our end where we

1:07:57

haven't been checking our O2. levels

1:08:00

in our work stream and

1:08:02

knock out but when I did

1:08:04

a brew at the

1:08:07

propagator with SAM Firestone

1:08:12

we did check the differential between

1:08:14

the O2

1:08:16

levels pre and post this burp that we

1:08:18

did through the cone and It

1:08:21

wasn't enough to disrupt the amount of

1:08:23

dissolved O2 that we wanted in the

1:08:25

work to to have you know, happy

1:08:27

healthy yeast but

1:08:30

definitely an important step because you know,

1:08:32

that's a If

1:08:34

you're talking a barrel three-quarters

1:08:37

of a barrel out of you know 15

1:08:40

barrel tank, you know Whatever

1:08:42

you're knocking out. That's that's a lot of heat

1:08:45

that's in a you know small amount

1:08:48

of area so But

1:08:52

are you are you Evan and Steve are you guys using

1:08:54

the? Kelsey flowable

1:08:57

high oil technique as well

1:09:01

No, not for art. No we For

1:09:04

most of our hazy's we just

1:09:06

use pellets in the whirlpool Like

1:09:09

I said, we drop we do two pounds per barrel

1:09:13

The reason we go that high and we go about 180

1:09:15

on our whirlpool I

1:09:18

go that high because I'm trying to push

1:09:20

as many of those survivable compounds into that

1:09:22

tank To to

1:09:25

last through fermentation and

1:09:27

I also believe at that point I

1:09:29

mean we talk about bio transformation with

1:09:32

the contact of yeast and

1:09:34

hops I mean if I can if I'm pushing

1:09:36

that much hops in there I mean what better

1:09:38

time for my yeast to interact with my hops

1:09:41

is at that beginning stage of fermentation

1:09:44

and so we

1:09:46

knock out I Mean

1:09:49

are we just getting into that or do you want to get in the

1:09:51

fermentation stuff? That's my next Roll

1:09:55

in I'll just throw out actually let's let Evan

1:09:57

answer cuz I'm curious because I should don't know

1:09:59

if If Evan uses the

1:10:02

high oil extracts in the

1:10:05

brews, I mean being that you make a little

1:10:07

caricature of Kelsey on the brew logs, I'm pretty

1:10:10

sure you do but... We

1:10:14

use it more for West Coast than

1:10:16

we do for hazy IPA honestly because

1:10:20

we're looking for just

1:10:23

enough hop character to do

1:10:26

exactly like what Steve's

1:10:28

talking about with the bio transformation to where

1:10:30

we can have

1:10:33

a beer

1:10:35

that before we dry hop smells

1:10:37

like an IPA because I think

1:10:39

that when we

1:10:41

tried to do... There's enough

1:10:43

brews I've talked to out there that

1:10:46

do a hazy

1:10:48

IPA where they do no

1:10:50

hopping at all in the kettle. They

1:10:52

don't even do what Kelsey's talking about and then

1:10:55

they dry hop the beer and I think those

1:10:57

beers just have a hole in the middle and

1:11:00

they don't have that

1:11:03

bio transformation for lack of a

1:11:05

better term that you

1:11:08

can get via Whirlpool Editions or Kelsey's

1:11:11

technique and I think that's

1:11:13

needed in order for it to get

1:11:15

into the right spot. I

1:11:18

have a question about fermentation temperature.

1:11:21

Are you all thinking about

1:11:23

this? You hear a

1:11:25

lot now especially with West Coast IPAs,

1:11:27

I'm going to bring down that

1:11:30

primary fermentation temperature, sometimes even using

1:11:33

lager yeast like Kyle and Park

1:11:35

does and many others

1:11:38

trying to give it a clean slate or

1:11:41

are you thinking of this as

1:11:43

a warmer fermentation that's an English yeast

1:11:45

often so maybe it's more estuary and that's

1:11:47

going to meld with the hops. I'm

1:11:50

curious where you're all at there.

1:11:53

Evan, you take it. Yeah, so for fermentation

1:11:56

we are... single

1:12:00

IPA, we're typically knocking out

1:12:02

at 66 degrees to ferment

1:12:04

at 68 degrees with a

1:12:07

free rise to 72 thirds of the

1:12:10

way through fermentation and then we're

1:12:12

harvesting day three

1:12:17

or four depending on activity

1:12:21

and then we're immediately dry hopping.

1:12:24

Is that different than West Coast IPA?

1:12:28

I think for West Coast we're like for sure

1:12:30

day four and

1:12:32

that activity

1:12:35

that I mentioned earlier is so important

1:12:37

to make sure that we have fermentation

1:12:40

still happening. You

1:12:42

know, it's like this perfect moment that at

1:12:44

least our breweries waiting for where things

1:12:47

fermentation has slowed down just enough to where

1:12:49

we can harvest yeast because we need to

1:12:51

do that otherwise we would spend

1:12:54

incredible amounts of money which

1:12:57

I think we already do but

1:13:00

yeah man we do. Anyway, but

1:13:03

for West Coast on the other

1:13:05

hand, I mean day four

1:13:07

we're not looking for haze since

1:13:10

that's not important but on

1:13:12

the double and triple IPAs on the other hand, we are

1:13:15

fermenting a little bit cooler at 65 degrees

1:13:18

and then the highest it gets to 68

1:13:20

degrees but yeah,

1:13:23

I think overall

1:13:26

we do a really low

1:13:28

pitch rate on these beers and then a

1:13:30

really high oxygen amount and so you know

1:13:33

we are a brewery that

1:13:35

counts cells for

1:13:37

all pitches and so we

1:13:40

are pitching these beers at 375,000 cells per

1:13:42

milliliter per degree Play-Doh and

1:13:49

so that's over half of

1:13:51

the normal pitch rate that you

1:13:53

would use in a normal

1:13:56

ale fermentation but then

1:13:58

we're hitting it at like 20. 20

1:14:00

parts per million on O2 at

1:14:03

knockout to keep that

1:14:05

just absolutely rocking and so those

1:14:08

two things I think really

1:14:11

help and then what else

1:14:13

should I tell you? I think I think

1:14:16

you're intentionally stressing and then you're intentionally also

1:14:18

aiding and assisting. Yeah,

1:14:22

yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey. And our

1:14:24

and our all of you. Come on, Brewer. You've done

1:14:26

some good shit, Jamie. I'm like, that was good, dude.

1:14:29

Are all of your tanks single batch or are

1:14:31

they any of them double batches? I

1:14:34

was totally going to nerd out on that

1:14:36

too but I felt like I was talking

1:14:39

for too long, Vinny, but yes, they

1:14:41

are double batch brews. Do

1:14:44

you do it over two days or fill

1:14:46

the tank in one day? So it's

1:14:48

a, yeah, it's two days

1:14:50

of brewing for that and we're actually, and this is

1:14:53

where it gets even smaller

1:14:55

of a pitch. We're only pitching that

1:14:57

amount of yeast for this for the

1:14:59

single first batch and

1:15:02

instead of calculating

1:15:05

the total amount for both batches. Yeah,

1:15:07

that's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's

1:15:09

right. Yeah, we talked about Jamie and I

1:15:12

talked about this the other day, but that

1:15:14

term drow flowers them is brewing into one

1:15:16

tank over two days is something that we

1:15:18

found that we've learned from some other breweries

1:15:20

is like you're stressing the yeast somehow and

1:15:23

it's really aiding in haze and that

1:15:25

has worked for us. I'm curious Kelsey

1:15:27

and Steve, if you guys are doing

1:15:30

that. Wait, how do you spell this?

1:15:32

Drow? Drow flowers them.

1:15:34

I don't know how it's spelled. It's

1:15:36

just German for brewing over

1:15:38

a couple days. Love it.

1:15:41

Drow flowers them. Yeah, if you can

1:15:43

Google it on the craft beer and brewing

1:15:46

the website and I think it comes up. That's

1:15:50

probably one of the Oxford companion definitely.

1:15:52

Exactly. Thank you. Thank you,

1:15:54

Garrett. Thank you, Garrett Oliver. So Kelsey, how

1:15:56

about you? Yeah, so most

1:15:58

of these beers are are a single

1:16:00

turn. Art is

1:16:02

hard and occasionally if we make a

1:16:06

double batch of a hazy pale oil or

1:16:08

another hazy single IPA

1:16:10

they do get two

1:16:13

turns and those would be over the course of two days.

1:16:16

Otherwise our higher gravity stuff and

1:16:18

we tend to re-pitch our

1:16:20

yeast once a week and

1:16:22

we'll either do that into one or two

1:16:24

beers because we have

1:16:27

11 tanks. Most of the time

1:16:33

it's just a single. And

1:16:35

are esters an important part to a hazy IPA

1:16:37

for you or are you trying to keep it

1:16:40

a cooler fermentation temperature and then

1:16:42

I know you said you don't have a WART

1:16:44

DO meter so you wouldn't be able to check

1:16:46

this but it also makes me start thinking if

1:16:48

esters are an important part to either

1:16:51

any of you guys or anyone else like

1:16:53

you could take that approach sort of I

1:16:55

mean to a degree Evan's doing it but

1:16:57

you know that you hear about it from

1:16:59

like Weitzen

1:17:01

brewers or Belgian brewers where

1:17:03

they you know under pitch and

1:17:05

under WART aerate to maybe

1:17:07

get more esters but maybe that's not what you're

1:17:09

going for. Yeah we

1:17:12

ferment a little warmer than

1:17:15

Evan does and

1:17:17

just talking to Evan we're using the same yeast

1:17:19

strain so we're dealing with with

1:17:22

juice from Imperial. K38.

1:17:25

I'm sure we were talking about yeast then.

1:17:32

And I mean we're definitely on the

1:17:34

high end of aeration compared to anything

1:17:36

else that we do so you

1:17:38

know our cellar run is pretty short

1:17:41

we're knocking out through a you know inch and

1:17:43

a half hose and

1:17:47

it's you know we're running the

1:17:49

you know it's 5 LPM for

1:17:51

a 40 minute knockout at 17

1:17:54

and a half barrels you

1:17:57

know we'll bench test that soon I just got

1:17:59

the in this week. You

1:18:01

know, just kind of see what that is and dial it

1:18:04

in. Our pitching rate has been

1:18:07

higher than Evans by two-fold,

1:18:10

but we've actually been experimenting with bringing

1:18:12

that down a little bit for

1:18:15

these beers. And we don't make too

1:18:18

many adjustments for higher gravity if

1:18:20

ever, but we

1:18:22

knock out at 64, set our set point

1:18:25

at 70, and then when we're about

1:18:31

75% attenuated, we'll let it rise

1:18:33

up to 73. And we don't take the tank

1:18:36

down in temperature

1:18:41

at any point until we're ready to crash, so

1:18:43

there's no soft crash or anything going on. And

1:18:47

you asked about esters, Zenny, sorry. Yeah,

1:18:49

I mean, I would say just considering what

1:18:51

I said, like, we're on the upper end

1:18:54

of the temperature spectrum there, so I

1:18:56

think esters are pretty darn important and homogenous

1:18:58

with the hop character that we're going

1:19:00

for. How about you,

1:19:02

Steve? Yeah,

1:19:05

so we dock out at

1:19:07

70 and set the tank to

1:19:09

72. I'm

1:19:11

also like Evan, we underpitch our

1:19:15

yeasts. We're probably around 450,000 cells,

1:19:17

but we also, I don't option

1:19:19

it too heavily. So

1:19:25

we stress our yeasts pretty

1:19:27

heavily, which is why I only go

1:19:29

about two to three generations, and then

1:19:32

I cut it and get something new.

1:19:35

We got a smaller system, a seven barrel

1:19:37

system, but we fill 30 barrel tanks. So

1:19:41

it takes us four turns to do

1:19:43

that 30 barrel. So we'll put in

1:19:45

three turns with a smaller pitch day

1:19:47

one, and then come back day two,

1:19:49

put the last turn in, but with

1:19:51

no oxygen. And then usually when it's

1:19:53

time to harvest a

1:19:56

ton of yeast out of that 30 barrel, and

1:19:58

that will last us a while. And then

1:20:01

after, we don't dry hop during active

1:20:04

fermentation at all. We

1:20:06

wait for the beer to completely ferment out, and then we

1:20:08

soft crash from 72 down to 65,

1:20:11

harvest, and then dry hop. These

1:20:15

guys mentioned they use A30A. What are

1:20:17

you using? Similar to London Ale

1:20:19

III kind of variants, Steve? So

1:20:21

I do use juice in some beers.

1:20:25

Our house strain is actually, it's

1:20:27

actually a little bit off of

1:20:29

Chico. We use A72 from BSI,

1:20:31

is our house strain. I

1:20:35

wanted to go with something a little bit different, and I

1:20:37

really like the character that it gives our beer a lot.

1:20:41

So that was something that I

1:20:43

found. Actually, I heard it on a

1:20:45

podcast from a brewer that used

1:20:48

it, and I was like, I'm going to use that.

1:20:50

I like that brewer's beer. And I was like,

1:20:52

let me try that beer. And I called BSI,

1:20:54

and they gave me a sample. And I

1:20:57

said, this is it. This is what we're using. I

1:20:59

think that's so much, Steve,

1:21:01

part of what we all do here,

1:21:03

where you continue to find your

1:21:07

own way based off of what your preferences are.

1:21:09

And it's just funny whenever somebody comes

1:21:11

along and is like, oh, yeah, well, not to say

1:21:14

that this is what we're doing right now,

1:21:16

but in so many situations, yeah, like

1:21:19

what hops are in here, what yeast is in it, and

1:21:22

it's like, don't you want

1:21:24

to find your own way? Or

1:21:26

do you want to be

1:21:28

able to have that journey?

1:21:30

I think the journey is important, I guess, is

1:21:32

like- Very important. In order

1:21:35

to then, one, have that

1:21:37

much more pride in what you're doing, but then also, two,

1:21:42

it's yours. Like, hopefully, from

1:21:44

a standpoint of like, nothing

1:21:46

else tastes like this. I

1:21:50

couldn't agree more with that. When I

1:21:52

first started this journey, I didn't ever

1:21:54

want our beer to say that beer tastes

1:21:56

like so and so's beer. I

1:21:58

want them to say that's a sign of me. beer. Absolutely.

1:22:00

You know, in my habit, they're like,

1:22:02

Oh, that's finance, you know, and that's

1:22:04

something I really

1:22:07

like took a lot of pride in when

1:22:09

you know, making our beer and getting it to

1:22:11

where I want it. And, you know, when

1:22:13

I our customers can blindly taste

1:22:16

the beer and they'll say finance. Yeah,

1:22:19

that's right. Yes, that's what I want. You know,

1:22:21

and we'll because sometimes it's fun. We'll just walk

1:22:24

up to people, hey, try this beer, we won't

1:22:26

tell them what it is. You're like, Oh, that's

1:22:28

finance. And I'm just like, Okay, that's

1:22:31

what I want. Nice.

1:22:33

Nice. So this, as I'm listening

1:22:35

to this, I think there's some interesting tensions at

1:22:37

play, you know, obviously, there's this Kelsey

1:22:40

method of hopping using

1:22:42

advanced hop products, you know, right

1:22:44

at knockout. And, you

1:22:46

know, rather than Whirlpool, there are, you

1:22:48

know, Steve mentioned not dry hopping during

1:22:51

active fermentation, I think most of us

1:22:53

know, a lot of the, you know,

1:22:55

research that Omega has been putting out

1:22:58

is that hay stability, you know, definitely

1:23:00

is carries through better, you know, if

1:23:02

you are not dry hopping during active

1:23:05

fermentation, you know, and yet at the

1:23:07

same time, you know, Evan is also

1:23:09

talking about the importance of biotransformation as

1:23:12

this, you know, conceptual piece, you know,

1:23:14

that helps fill the middle of the

1:23:16

beers, these things all seem to work.

1:23:19

And interesting, like, you know, tension

1:23:21

with each other, where you're

1:23:24

trying to balance the flavor and

1:23:26

development versus also the

1:23:28

kind of, you know, physical, you

1:23:30

know, haze stability in this, you

1:23:33

know, maybe we can

1:23:35

talk about that a little bit. You know,

1:23:38

Evan, do you dry hop during active

1:23:40

fermentation, you mentioned biotransformation, but you're trying

1:23:42

to accomplish that without also pulling away

1:23:45

from this kind of hay stability? And

1:23:48

Evan, as a follow up to Jamie's

1:23:50

question, I mean,

1:23:53

you've you said you're harvesting yeast

1:23:56

before you make the dry hop. So you must be

1:23:58

far enough along that the yeast has Yeah, I

1:24:00

said I'm gonna flock out Do

1:24:03

you know where you're at into you

1:24:05

know what gravity you're at or you know?

1:24:08

attenuation you're at in Def

1:24:10

fermentation that you know that I

1:24:12

mean it's probably pretty far along if it's

1:24:14

flocking out already. Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely I

1:24:17

mean like as an example for say single

1:24:19

IPA single hazy IPA, you know if we're

1:24:21

finishing at four and a half play-doh We're

1:24:25

harvesting a little above five or five

1:24:27

two Maybe

1:24:29

as high as five five depending on

1:24:31

the situation and then there's a dry

1:24:33

hop And

1:24:36

that could be hop creep And

1:24:38

that's exactly what I was about to say and then there's a

1:24:41

small amount of creep that comes along with that and Yeah,

1:24:44

I mean we have a pretty

1:24:48

quick Warm

1:24:50

time on these beers of typically

1:24:53

around from when we send it

1:24:55

into the fermenter about

1:24:57

seven days maybe eight max

1:25:01

Where we dry

1:25:03

hop a beer and then three days later

1:25:05

we're crashing that beer and there's

1:25:11

Yeah, I think that the just

1:25:13

the thing that really at least

1:25:16

for us we've tried to

1:25:18

do true active

1:25:20

fermentation dry hopping and To

1:25:23

your point Jamie. Yeah, those

1:25:25

the haze levels on those beers are actually

1:25:28

we're actually worse and We

1:25:31

also felt like we weren't

1:25:33

getting the hop expression like yeah, we got

1:25:36

we got fruit and we got

1:25:38

some really neat character there, but I

1:25:42

Didn't it wasn't something that I personally was

1:25:44

very excited about and so as

1:25:46

we continue to move it towards the right at

1:25:48

the end of fermentation Just

1:25:51

enough time to exactly what you said Vinnie be able

1:25:53

to harvest yeast and then Something

1:25:57

that Kelsey touched on earlier that

1:26:00

about the Belgian candy sugar and

1:26:03

these other beers where for

1:26:05

us double IPA

1:26:07

and triple IPA, we're

1:26:10

harvesting yeast, we're adding a little bit of sugar

1:26:13

and then we're dry hopping at the same time.

1:26:16

And man, the amount of cool

1:26:18

things that are happening all at once with

1:26:20

being able to do this from having

1:26:22

healthy yeast all the

1:26:25

time, no matter if we're brewing a

1:26:27

triple IPA or a double IPA, like

1:26:30

we're going to end up with really good yeast. We're

1:26:33

getting way better haze stability because

1:26:35

we have some activity fermenting

1:26:38

with those hops and there's

1:26:41

this aspect of like just

1:26:44

dank sort of garlic onion characters that

1:26:46

are able to be minimized through that

1:26:49

small fermentation that I really like as

1:26:51

well and I feel

1:26:54

like I'm missing one thing, there might be another thing

1:26:56

but all in all, it ends up being really beneficial.

1:26:59

Do any of you think that you

1:27:01

get more and maybe too much of

1:27:03

that dank onion garlic quality when

1:27:05

you dry hop too early or are those

1:27:08

unrelated? Well,

1:27:10

I think you scrub a good amount

1:27:13

of that off. I feel like part

1:27:16

of that is volatile but

1:27:18

also is so varietal specific

1:27:20

and lot specific because we

1:27:23

certainly do get that sometimes but it

1:27:27

tends to be we end up with

1:27:29

that character when we've used too

1:27:31

much of a variety that is

1:27:33

a known contributor of that and

1:27:38

we try and minimize that by adding

1:27:40

those hops later. So yeah, I think

1:27:42

there is something to adding them too

1:27:44

early. How about you,

1:27:46

Steve? Yeah, I think

1:27:49

I said we dry hop kind of cooler.

1:27:52

The fermentation is complete. What

1:27:56

temperature is cooler? Okay.

1:27:59

So we're first. We're

1:28:01

fermenting at 72. Once

1:28:04

everything's done, once it's been at

1:28:06

terminal for a couple of days, we bring it down and we

1:28:09

dry hop. Like

1:28:11

Evan, I don't keep the beers on, or

1:28:13

excuse me, the hops on the beer very long. We're

1:28:16

dry hopping. All of our dry hopping is done over

1:28:18

two days in smaller doses. So

1:28:21

we dry hop day one, dry hop day two, make

1:28:24

sure everything passes a sensory test.

1:28:28

Once it passes sensory tests, we

1:28:30

start the cold crash process. So usually

1:28:32

the hops are not on the beer any

1:28:34

longer than five days before they're put in

1:28:37

the bright. I

1:28:39

think if hops sit on beer for

1:28:41

too long, that's when

1:28:43

you start kind of pulling some of

1:28:46

those flavors you don't want. And

1:28:48

I also think it goes like what Kelsey was

1:28:51

saying, that's

1:28:54

why you have to sensory your hops before

1:28:56

you put them in. I mean, if you smell a bag of hops

1:28:59

and you're rubbing it, and it smells like garlic and onion,

1:29:01

it's gonna smell like garlic and onion in your beer. Don't

1:29:04

use, save that for the hot side. Hey,

1:29:06

save that for your spaghetti sauce, you know

1:29:08

what I'm saying? Right,

1:29:10

so we always make sure

1:29:12

that everything smells right before

1:29:14

they go in. If

1:29:17

the hops smell good, then we drop them. If

1:29:19

not, we usually hold those. Sometimes

1:29:22

those hops, sometimes as that

1:29:24

smell, we just keep it for the hot side

1:29:26

and use it in the oil pool. So it

1:29:28

sounds like you don't

1:29:31

lager your condition, your

1:29:33

hazy IPAs that long. You

1:29:36

get them out and you found that balance that you don't

1:29:38

get a lot or if any

1:29:40

hot burn on the back end. Right,

1:29:43

yeah, it just comes through that whole process from

1:29:47

grainville all the way through. And

1:29:51

no, like I said, we're probably

1:29:53

grain to canning and I mean,

1:29:55

just because we have to, probably 14 to

1:29:58

15 days. We're

1:30:00

turning those beers around. We

1:30:03

have a lot of tanks.

1:30:05

So we have nine seven-barrel

1:30:07

tanks, one 10-barrel tank, six

1:30:10

15s and three 30s. And we don't

1:30:12

have a lot of brights. We

1:30:15

got to get

1:30:18

beer canned and then

1:30:20

get those brights open to get the beer in because

1:30:23

I do not like leaving our beer on the

1:30:25

hops for very long at all. I

1:30:28

like doing this seven-day cold on

1:30:31

the hops. I feel like there's

1:30:33

this development that happens, at least

1:30:36

for me, that I feel like the beer

1:30:38

is halfway there when we have it, say

1:30:40

warm at our 68 degrees or

1:30:43

whatever else. And then we crash the beer to

1:30:45

32 on these beers. And then I

1:30:47

want the

1:30:50

beer to sit for seven days and then we're

1:30:53

going through our transfer. But I feel like it's

1:30:55

not until we're then going to transfer it to

1:30:58

where I'm like, yeah, that's where it needs

1:31:00

to be. I

1:31:03

cut you off there. Sorry, Vinny. No, no,

1:31:06

Kelso. Both of you. You've

1:31:08

been speaking so much. I was going

1:31:10

to like Kelso get it right in

1:31:12

headwise. I love you, Evan. Jim, you

1:31:14

look bad, dude. Look at him turning red. I

1:31:18

was holding on to that line in my head,

1:31:20

Vinny, and you beat me too. I love it.

1:31:22

I love it. I

1:31:24

mean, seven days is a good amount

1:31:26

for most breweries out there for IPA.

1:31:28

So Kelso, where are you at on

1:31:30

that conditioning side? Yeah,

1:31:33

I mean, unlike Evan

1:31:36

and Steve, we're at a bit

1:31:38

of a disadvantage because our brewery

1:31:40

is set up as a unitank

1:31:43

only. Anything

1:31:45

that we've got on the non-unitank

1:31:47

side or serving tanks, and we

1:31:50

can't package off of those because

1:31:53

of the temperature and we don't have a counter pressure

1:31:55

canning line. So

1:31:58

when we're working with our schedule and

1:32:01

trying to figure out you know when we're

1:32:03

gonna package we tend to

1:32:05

brew most of

1:32:08

our tanks around a three-week turn where

1:32:10

we're packaging every Monday so

1:32:13

the hazy IPA is because

1:32:15

of the contact time concern

1:32:17

are getting brewed with

1:32:20

more of like a 17 day

1:32:23

tank residency so we tend to brew

1:32:25

hazy IPA toward the end of our

1:32:27

week when we've packaged

1:32:29

off several tanks and we're refilling them

1:32:33

and then you

1:32:36

know we do tend to do early

1:32:38

dry hop when we harvest

1:32:40

yeast like the day of and

1:32:42

that usually is something that's not going

1:32:44

to contribute a big polyphenol hit so

1:32:47

you know trying to avoid hot burn

1:32:49

you know we're using a concentrated pellet

1:32:51

at that point so that we're not

1:32:53

sitting on a bunch of

1:32:55

leaf matter that's going to give you that

1:32:57

you know grassy intensity and

1:33:00

you know forward thinking for additional

1:33:02

hop additions whether we're double dry

1:33:04

hop or triple dry hop those

1:33:06

additions are happening you know

1:33:09

much later in that second week

1:33:12

where you know it's going to sit on

1:33:15

those hops and we're dumping

1:33:17

the cone every day and you

1:33:20

know we haven't walked through

1:33:22

the whole dry hop process exactly but

1:33:24

you're shaving with shaving yeah we're saving

1:33:26

the cone shaving the cone and it

1:33:28

can't say we've already gone through this

1:33:30

yeah we have a vernacular for this

1:33:32

I know got to shave

1:33:34

it yeah you know you're getting the heat you're getting

1:33:36

the hops out but yeah

1:33:38

we don't want to be sitting on a

1:33:41

bunch of hot materials so as much as

1:33:43

with our limitations of our cellar we're trying

1:33:45

to mitigate this you know extended contact time

1:33:47

on hops you

1:33:49

know after we're doing our our you know

1:33:52

final charge of any T 90s and you

1:33:56

know also to just kind of

1:33:58

mix this in We were

1:34:00

talking about haze

1:34:03

coming from certain

1:34:05

southern hemisphere varieties on the

1:34:07

hot side. I mean, that

1:34:10

largely, from what

1:34:12

I understand, is derived from polyphenols. And

1:34:15

so, that is your hot

1:34:17

burn source. Anything that's contributing

1:34:19

haze is going to contribute

1:34:21

some element of harshness when

1:34:23

it is polyphenol. So,

1:34:26

we want to introduce that as late in

1:34:29

the dry hop as possible, especially

1:34:31

on our system, knowing that

1:34:35

we're going to have to sit on some amount

1:34:37

of those hops through the entire duration of our

1:34:39

tank time. So, if I'm using

1:34:41

a bunch of Nelson or, you know, especially

1:34:44

anything from Australia, Galaxy,

1:34:46

you know, Enigma, that type of

1:34:49

stuff, Thick Secret, I want our

1:34:51

warm beer in contact with those

1:34:53

hops for the shortest amount of

1:34:55

time. And when we're crashing

1:34:57

that out, I want to be dumping those out

1:35:00

of that tank as quickly as possible. But

1:35:03

we do a research step to

1:35:06

resuspend everything, you

1:35:09

know, before we are doing a final

1:35:11

crash. And

1:35:14

our tanks are outfitted with

1:35:16

a tangential recirculation port on

1:35:18

the upper body, where

1:35:21

we're coming out of the cone, you know,

1:35:23

spinning the tank and, you know, it whips

1:35:25

around. You can actually hear the

1:35:27

vortex going on inside the tank. And

1:35:31

I feel like with our limited

1:35:33

solar conditions, those tanks are the

1:35:35

best possible tank to be

1:35:38

able to get everything to drop down

1:35:40

into a tight, you know, formation in

1:35:42

the cone and be able to remove,

1:35:45

you know, the hot material from the tank. So,

1:35:49

yeah, I mean, we're kind of making the best

1:35:51

of what we have to work with. If

1:35:54

I could go into a Bright and package off of it, if

1:35:57

I had an extra 20, 20 square feet, square

1:36:00

feet of my cellar to do that, I

1:36:02

would, but I don't

1:36:04

have that luxury right now. Was

1:36:07

there more there from Steve? For

1:36:10

that, like, yeah, so as far as our process,

1:36:13

like I said, we soft crashed to 65. Another

1:36:17

thing that we do is we close the tank probably,

1:36:23

because the tank probably two

1:36:25

to three days before final

1:36:27

gravity is going to be hit, and

1:36:30

we build some natural pressure in the tank,

1:36:32

a little bit of natural carbonation. And

1:36:36

the reason that we do that is that we

1:36:38

dry hop everything under pressure. So

1:36:40

I have like a hop cannon on top

1:36:42

of my, on top of the fermenter, we

1:36:45

load 11 pounds of hops at a time,

1:36:47

CO2 purge it, bring it up to

1:36:49

the pressure of the tank, open it and it shoots it in. So

1:36:52

yeah, no, it's awesome. So that way,

1:36:54

like Kelsey was saying, how he recirculates

1:36:56

his tank, I kind of like to

1:36:58

let the hops, I feel this

1:37:00

style, you just want to be as gentle as possible. And

1:37:03

I think by building some of that natural

1:37:05

carbonation, I think maybe the carbonation inside, this

1:37:08

is just my theory, the hops

1:37:10

get in there and it just helps move everything

1:37:12

around and get

1:37:14

the extraction better. I mean, we

1:37:16

have seen times where we

1:37:19

forget to close those tanks. And

1:37:23

we dry hop, and it's just

1:37:25

not as good. It's just

1:37:27

the hop expression, aroma and flavor is just

1:37:29

not as good. Well, I

1:37:31

will say that like, to

1:37:34

add on what you're talking about, from my

1:37:36

experience, if we are

1:37:38

not, we're similar in dry

1:37:41

hopping techniques to where we're

1:37:43

not recirculating these tanks. But

1:37:46

if we don't put some pressure

1:37:48

on the tank to push

1:37:51

these hops from this like sort of pad,

1:37:53

lily pad that like forms on the top

1:37:55

of the tank. And if we're not like

1:37:57

putting some positive pressure on there, push these

1:37:59

all into the beer then I'm

1:38:01

in the same boat. Like there's two things

1:38:04

that I've experienced that happen on there. One

1:38:06

is the first thing you said where the

1:38:08

hop intensity is not what you wanted it

1:38:10

to be and you're just kind of nosing

1:38:13

the glass and going like where

1:38:15

are we at here? Yeah,

1:38:17

where's the aroma, where's the flavor? But

1:38:20

the other thing that I find really interesting too

1:38:22

is that if you're not getting those hops incorporated

1:38:24

at that time, we've seen

1:38:27

just this like pretty like

1:38:29

this dank kind of garlic onion thing

1:38:31

like rise up to where like all

1:38:34

the hops that were sitting in there

1:38:36

and this sort of that were in

1:38:38

my mind earlier

1:38:40

on were just kind of slowly like

1:38:42

you know drifting down into the tank.

1:38:45

Instead, once you put that positive pressure and

1:38:47

you start crashing the tank, you're now doing

1:38:49

a cold dry hop on these tanks and

1:38:52

that's where we started to

1:38:54

see some danker beers

1:38:57

out of what that is when

1:38:59

I'm personally looking for this nice

1:39:02

fruit expression. I'm also looking

1:39:04

for you know I like

1:39:06

the kind of resiny kind of

1:39:08

like deep cannabis sort of character. I think

1:39:10

that's absolutely wonderful but I'm just

1:39:13

personally trying to stay away from the garlic onion

1:39:15

character but I think that I don't

1:39:17

know. I just find that part of things pretty

1:39:19

interesting just getting those hops incorporated really

1:39:21

changes the overall profile for the beneficial.

1:39:26

And Evan, remind us Evan, you talked

1:39:28

about this on the West Coast IPA

1:39:30

podcast but you had a certain like

1:39:32

procedure of 15 PSI for

1:39:36

so much hours a day. Yeah,

1:39:38

just what I mean just one hour for

1:39:41

us and like you know we've done so

1:39:43

many, we've done this enough times to where like

1:39:45

earlier on we would look inside of the

1:39:48

tank first we would see

1:39:50

this lily pad of hops sitting up

1:39:52

there and then we would put the

1:39:54

positive pressure on there and then an

1:39:57

hour later, vent surveying the

1:39:59

tank back open. into the

1:40:01

blow-off bucket and then we get back on a ladder

1:40:03

and just take a look inside opening up that dry

1:40:05

hop port and those hops have been pushed in. I

1:40:07

mean you could pull it from the sample valve and

1:40:10

see that those hops have been pushed in and

1:40:13

it man it made a world of

1:40:15

a difference. Do you see any hops

1:40:17

still at the top or are they all in

1:40:19

the liquid at that after that hour? Yeah they've

1:40:21

been they've been pushed in at that point but

1:40:23

you have to give I mean at least for

1:40:26

us and what we're doing what we'll

1:40:28

do is we dry hop at the end of the day

1:40:30

and then we do it we push the hops into the

1:40:32

beer the following morning

1:40:35

because there's a time

1:40:37

period where you kind of have to at least

1:40:39

in our experience these these hops need to get

1:40:42

saturated with the liquid and then

1:40:45

once that's there then they can

1:40:47

actually get pushed in otherwise nothing

1:40:50

has happened for us whenever we've tried to

1:40:52

do it earlier. Yeah and I think this

1:40:54

is something that doesn't get talked about enough

1:40:56

and I don't know that there's an industry

1:40:58

standard or not I think maybe each hop

1:41:01

processor has their own but that comes down to

1:41:03

hop density and you know how

1:41:05

they're pelleted and and it's it's probably

1:41:07

something that would be a cool

1:41:10

research project for Hop Quality Group

1:41:12

or someone else to really start

1:41:14

looking at density and and I

1:41:16

know of some brewers that have

1:41:19

a very specific density

1:41:21

of their hop pellets that

1:41:23

they call out but you know I think

1:41:25

for most of us we're getting whatever our

1:41:28

purveyor broker you know whatever their

1:41:30

standard is. Wait you can

1:41:32

request lower density hop pellets?

1:41:34

I do know of

1:41:36

a brewer that has a very specific density

1:41:39

and I'm sure there's more than one but

1:41:42

yes yeah that they they're you know

1:41:44

doing their own hop blends and they're

1:41:46

taking them to a broker or

1:41:49

some metal pellet third party and they're saying

1:41:51

yeah this is the density I want and

1:41:53

they figure it out whatever

1:41:55

it is I'm sure it took them a while to

1:41:58

figure it out but yeah you can do that. If

1:42:01

you have the right

1:42:04

relationship and whatnot and whatever your situation is. But

1:42:07

yeah, like you said, Evan, I mean a hard

1:42:09

pellet is just going to, I mean, I think

1:42:11

some of, I don't know, you've probably all seen

1:42:13

it where you dump

1:42:16

a cone, you shave a

1:42:18

cone, and there's still almost

1:42:20

like dry pellets down there,

1:42:22

full pellets. And then

1:42:24

the flip side is something that's just

1:42:26

powder and give Yakima cheap.

1:42:30

A lot of credit for figuring out the

1:42:32

density of the cryo, the early lupin powder,

1:42:34

you had added and it just hung at

1:42:36

the top, but figured it

1:42:39

out over time. And now it

1:42:41

sinks like a regular pellet, as

1:42:43

I'm sure all the other hop

1:42:45

companies have figured out over time as

1:42:48

well. Should we

1:42:50

talk about some of the impacts that Steve was

1:42:52

hinting back at the first 20 minutes of

1:42:54

the podcast about some of

1:42:57

the impact of individual

1:42:59

hops, both on color,

1:43:02

on texture of

1:43:04

the beer, of haze stability,

1:43:06

and then also in this

1:43:09

kind of broader creative realm, flavors

1:43:11

that become complementary, that

1:43:13

work within this kind of

1:43:15

fruit flavor expectation. And

1:43:18

then of course, hops from different origins that

1:43:20

are creating different stories for you out of

1:43:22

these beers. Let's talk a little bit

1:43:24

about that. And why don't you start on this one, Kelsey,

1:43:26

since I haven't already talked a lot. Just

1:43:30

talking. Yeah, I mean, I

1:43:32

feel like Citra is kind of

1:43:34

the foundation point for a lot of these

1:43:36

beers. Citra

1:43:45

goes so well with the ester profile

1:43:47

of the yeast strain that we're working

1:43:50

with. I feel like that

1:43:53

creates a canvas that we can kind of

1:43:55

layer on things to go in

1:43:58

any sort of different composition. And

1:44:02

it lends well to

1:44:05

interesting varieties that might

1:44:07

be fruity, tropical, that

1:44:09

are Pacific Northwest or

1:44:12

even stuff that

1:44:14

we might sprinkle into a recipe

1:44:17

like Hallertau Blanc can add some

1:44:19

really interesting character. Going

1:44:22

down into the Southern Hemisphere is like an

1:44:24

always decision for a lot of these beers

1:44:26

where a lot of that

1:44:28

rich style tropical fruit character we're going

1:44:30

to get from Nelson and

1:44:34

Motuaka and Nectaron

1:44:39

a little bit. Some

1:44:41

of these hops we find that where

1:44:43

they might be 50% charge in a

1:44:45

West Coast IPA end up

1:44:49

being kind of a 10% accent

1:44:53

note on a hazy IPA because they're

1:44:55

just so overbearing

1:44:57

in what

1:44:59

they provide. And so it's

1:45:02

kind of what

1:45:04

compliments the citra a lot of the time.

1:45:07

And then thinking about the... So when there's a lot

1:45:10

more bitterness in the beer, it can handle

1:45:12

some of those more

1:45:14

intense Southern Hemisphere flavors

1:45:17

versus the softer fruitier

1:45:19

where at that larger percentage

1:45:21

they just have much more impact. Yeah.

1:45:24

And I think at that point

1:45:27

we're not looking at sort

1:45:29

of when we were

1:45:31

talking about bitterness being I guess a bit

1:45:33

of an aggressive element, something

1:45:36

that has a very aggressive, intense,

1:45:40

rough course kind of hop character

1:45:42

that a West Coast IPA wants.

1:45:47

We can sprinkle in a little bit of

1:45:49

that into a hazy IPA and add some

1:45:51

nuance and texture and interest

1:45:53

without completely smothering