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This podcast is brought to you by Craft

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Beer and Brewing magazine for those that love

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to make and drink great beer. To learn

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more or to subscribe, visit beerandbrewing.com or find

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us on social media at craftbeerbrew. It's

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episode 342 of the Craft Beer

0:25

and Brewing podcast. And for this

0:27

episode, we're in the brew house

0:29

for Beer Stutt Lagerhaus. But

0:32

my guest on the podcast today is Natalie

0:34

Rose Baldwin, brewmaster for Wayfinder

0:36

in Portland, Oregon, who just happens to have

0:38

family out here in Colorado and was making

0:40

a trip. And so we thought because it

0:42

was going to be convenient, we should meet

0:45

up here and have this podcast that we

0:47

were actually talking about in the same space.

0:49

But welcome to the podcast, Natalie. Hi,

0:52

thanks for meeting me in the brewery here.

0:54

Our last meeting was in the

0:57

same space at their post-GABF party.

0:59

Tiki party. The Tiki party, which

1:01

was a fun one, definitely.

1:04

And so it was good to get to connect there. And

1:07

I'm sure I pitched you on the idea of doing a

1:09

podcast. And now it's all coming back together. I

1:12

say I'm sure because I'm a little foggy

1:14

on all the details of that night. I

1:17

think most people are. Yeah, I mean,

1:19

Ashley brought out the sham bong

1:22

that night. I don't remember that,

1:24

but I'm pretty good at chugging

1:26

champagne, apparently. Oh, my goodness. And

1:28

my little brother was here with us, too.

1:30

And he's like this big six three hockey

1:33

player and Ashley handed him the sham bong. And it

1:35

was gone in less than one second. So,

1:37

yes, it was a foggy night for all of us.

1:40

When I was in Portland last year, working

1:42

on video classes or fresh hop class or

1:44

Josh Frean class that's yet to come. So

1:47

if you're an all access subscriber, subscribe to

1:49

the craft. Bring all access to your get

1:51

access to our great video classes. The Kevin

1:53

Davie class that's out there right now on

1:55

cold IPA. When I was in that

1:57

Portland, Yakima area, made a point.

2:00

my first day there to swing by Wayfinder

2:02

and I specifically asked the beer tender that

2:04

day, what are the beers, because

2:06

it was still in the early days of your

2:08

Wayfinder beers, like what are the beers on your

2:11

list that Natalie has designed and brewed? And

2:13

he had two beers and so I was like

2:15

I want both of those. So I went out

2:17

and sought out your beers. You

2:20

know over the years, a couple years ago

2:22

I was at the Decompub with Ben Edmonds before

2:24

one of our brewery accelerator events there. He

2:26

was like you got to try this beer, these Natalie beers

2:29

at the Decompub because you are an R&D brewer for Breakside

2:31

right before this. And he's been one

2:33

of your biggest champions and so we're all excited to

2:35

see when you took the

2:37

helm at Wayfinder. Anyway, through

2:40

this episode we're going to talk

2:42

about West Coast, Pacific Northwest Coast

2:44

pills. I think it's a specific

2:47

sub-genre of West Coast pills as to

2:49

be differentiated potentially from San Diego,

2:51

you know in Southern California, iterations

2:53

of West Coast pills. We'll kind

2:56

of explore some of that territory.

2:58

One of your beers that I

3:00

had at Wayfinder at

3:02

that visit was Fresh Hop Keller Pills

3:04

with Strata which made my own personal

3:07

top 10 list of favorite

3:09

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All right, Natalie, we normally start off the podcast with a little

4:52

bit of history. Tell us yours, what got you into brewing and

4:55

how did your career progress from there? I

4:59

got into brewing sort of accidentally and

5:02

really feel lucky that I've been

5:04

able to

5:06

sort of have the opportunities I've had,

5:08

but also have worked really, really hard

5:10

to kind of make

5:12

my way through it. And it's a really fun

5:16

story, I guess, sort of simple, but

5:18

I was my college job. I was

5:20

going to school for Biochem and

5:23

was having a hard time

5:25

keeping up with school and work

5:27

and my job during college

5:29

was a, I was a valet parker, so

5:31

I've driven a lot of cars. And

5:35

I just was having a hard time keeping up with

5:38

school, so I ended up dropping out and kept my

5:40

college job and was curious

5:42

about science still and was

5:44

really interested in working in hair chemistry and

5:46

I wanted to go

5:48

and learn a little bit more

5:50

about color theory and dye

5:53

and all that kind of stuff. And so I moved to Portland,

5:55

was going to go to Paul Mitchell School, got

5:57

there and just couldn't really pull it off. So I

5:59

had translated. with my valet job and

6:03

didn't make any money, so needed to get a second job

6:05

and started bartending at

6:07

a brewery and started learning

6:09

from the brewer there. I thought it was pretty cool

6:11

and similarly to what

6:13

I was interested in in color

6:17

theory and hair and stuff like that.

6:19

Science and art, as

6:21

everyone says, I've always been a maker, whether

6:23

it's sewing or building or

6:25

I wish I could draw and paint

6:27

a little bit better, not really one of my

6:30

skills, but I'm just into making things and the

6:32

creative outlet is exciting and the same reason you

6:35

hear a

6:37

lot of people in the brewing industry. So nothing

6:39

new there, but I really like it and vibe

6:41

with some of the creative outlets I have

6:43

in it. And anyway, I learned

6:47

to brew at Burnside Brewing in Portland,

6:49

Oregon, which is now closed, but at

6:51

the time was pretty cool, similar to

6:53

Breakside in a lot of ways as

6:55

far as the aspect of cool

6:59

food and food inspired beers and

7:01

stuff like that. And I was

7:05

working there. That's kind of where I learned how to

7:07

do all sorts of tinctures and flour beers and tea

7:09

beers. And I had a lot of creative freedom and

7:11

I just kind of ran with it. And after

7:14

a couple years there, I was ready to learn a

7:16

little bit more about, I don't

7:19

know, nerd out with Ben. Ben

7:21

is basically. I remember my friend. Ben

7:23

Edmonds you. Yes, the ultimate brewing education

7:26

under Ben. Yeah. Kind

7:28

of built off of that, a

7:31

handful of years ago, the Oregon Historical Society

7:33

did a family tree of brewers, which was

7:35

really cool because each state or each big

7:37

brewing region

7:39

has those big breweries that sort of

7:42

turn out employees that start their own

7:44

breweries, whether that was Full Sail and

7:46

Deschutes and Widmer and

7:49

you know, all McMinnamons also,

7:51

and all the family tree roots that went

7:54

out to some of the smaller breweries. And

7:56

it's really cool to have been a part of

7:58

Breakside because I don't know. I've watched that

8:00

happen since starting there and you know,

8:03

it's become a pretty cool infrastructure and

8:06

left Burnside to work at Breakside, which

8:08

is confusing. They are different words. And

8:14

yeah, I got to you

8:16

know nerd out with Ben and learn

8:18

a lot and he creates a really

8:20

cool team over there and you

8:23

know, I just, I, I loved Breakside. I loved

8:25

working there. And then he got you brewing on

8:27

that three and a half barrel tiny system. Doing

8:30

R and D under the stairs. Oh man.

8:32

What a, what a fun. What

8:35

a cave. Yeah.

8:37

I mean, when I started at Breakside, I

8:40

was hired on as a production tour because

8:42

I, you know, didn't know

8:44

a lot about technical aspects of brewing. I

8:46

got, you know, my

8:49

feet on the ground and my foot

8:51

in the door working over at Burnside, but it

8:53

wasn't quite as technical and working over at Breakside.

8:55

It was like, Oh, I don't know anything

8:57

at all. Cool, cool, cool.

9:00

And you know, being in the production environment,

9:02

I was, you know, there's

9:05

something very fun about being a

9:07

very good production brewer and you

9:10

know, being good with timing and just turn it

9:12

and burn it and no one had to fix

9:14

stuff. It's, it's very fun. But

9:16

again, just kind of have always leaned more on

9:18

the creative side. So when, um, I

9:23

don't think bored is the right word. I just sort

9:25

of like needed a creative outlet. And so I started,

9:27

um, we were working four tens at the time at

9:29

Breakside. And on my three days off, I worked at

9:31

a winery during wine harvest and,

9:33

uh, you know, just to work 90 hours a week

9:35

for fun when you're in your early twenties and

9:39

I can't do that anymore, but, uh,

9:42

now sort of like my creative outlet. And then at the

9:44

time, um, the R and

9:46

D brewer left and there was a big

9:48

shift. You know, the, Breakside

9:50

was opening a 10 barrel brewery

9:53

and we,

9:55

you know, had a 30 barrel brewery, a 10

9:57

barrel brewery, and a three barrel brewery at the

10:00

time. So it was just. kind of who was

10:02

brewing where and there never really was a consistent

10:04

R&D brewer at the Decum location. It was

10:06

just a bunch of people rotating through and I

10:10

ended up kind of

10:12

just liking it a lot and getting to know

10:14

the system really well and having a lot of

10:16

fun and yeah definitely not the ideal brewing conditions

10:18

but I loved it. I mean

10:21

I remember drinking a lager that you brewed on

10:23

that tiny little three and a half barrel system

10:25

that was rather compelling. Ben was super

10:27

proud of it and said you got to try this. You

10:32

were undertaking some ambitious things even

10:34

within that kind of small scope.

10:36

Yeah, I think that I didn't really know

10:38

that I think

10:41

that I had been in these bigger

10:43

brewing environments especially in production

10:45

brewing where you're not

10:47

like touching everything the same way where you brew

10:50

the beer, QA team does gravities,

10:53

takes care of everything and you know I had done that

10:55

at Burnside and when you switch over

10:57

to production it's just a whole different ballgame

10:59

and when I had the opportunity to have

11:01

a little bit of flexible schedule

11:04

and not be part of the

11:06

production beast I was like well

11:08

this is what it looks like

11:10

I'm fine and yeah it's

11:12

a funny little brewery underneath the

11:15

main original break side pub and

11:17

it's a hot little cave with

11:20

the glycol chiller

11:22

in the room but yeah I've

11:27

produced a lot of really great award

11:29

winning beers on that brewery since break sides opened and

11:31

I got to be a part of that team and

11:33

very proud of that. Every

11:35

great brewery has some of these like

11:37

humble origin stories and you see the

11:39

first system that Ken Grossman brewed on

11:41

for Sierra Nevada and yeah when you

11:44

see that first system of break side

11:46

and how Ben was brewing

11:48

in early days and that tiny little

11:50

space like oh okay you know everyone

11:52

has earned what they've achieved. Totally. It's

11:54

amazing to see what that brewery is

11:56

doing but then you know Kevin Davie

11:58

decided to hop with Lisa and

12:01

start up Gold Dot and join

12:03

Heater Allen and Wayfinder. He

12:05

became brew master for Wayfinder.

12:08

Yeah. So, you know, I

12:10

wasn't really looking to leave Breakside because

12:12

I was very happy and, you know,

12:15

did a lot of really cool stuff there and felt

12:17

like a big part of my identity was tied to

12:19

that. And when Kevin decided

12:21

to leave Wayfinder, I hadn't really applied to

12:23

the job initially and then decided to put

12:25

my hat in the ring and kind

12:28

of felt like one of the only spots in Portland

12:30

that was, you know, a good fit for

12:32

me. And most of

12:34

my career focused on lager beer

12:37

and I don't know, not that it was

12:39

a Wayfinder thing but just kind of funny

12:41

little lager beers that weren't necessarily

12:44

always true to

12:47

tradition. I like

12:49

to be nerdy and stick to things when

12:51

they're supposed to be a very certain way.

12:54

It isn't lager but Goza is like my

12:56

baby baby. I

12:58

went to Leipzig and 2018 I got

13:02

a Pink Boots scholarship and on top of the

13:04

Pink Boots trip I ended up going to Leipzig

13:06

because I really focused on

13:08

making Goza and I ended up

13:11

a couple of years

13:13

later having some success at

13:15

GBF got gold for the Goza

13:17

that I've been working on. I felt

13:19

very, very, very proud of that. That point being whenever

13:22

somebody, we get like a new

13:24

staff member at Breakside and they'd be like, oh,

13:28

have you ever thought about putting, I'm like, if you

13:30

fucking tell me to put fruit in the Goza you're

13:32

out of here. But

13:34

yeah, so point being most of my career is,

13:36

you know, something very... You choose what

13:38

you're dogmatic about. Exactly. Like

13:41

I like to get weird, I like to have fun and,

13:44

you know, the structure of

13:46

Wayfinder is really cool because there's a, you know,

13:48

people know it for a lager beer and that

13:50

was something that's very close to my heart and

13:52

I, you know, kind of wanted to

13:54

see what the customer allowance and brand allowance was

13:57

for. I don't want to like, I

13:59

think Esoteric. can have sort of like

14:01

an egotistical connotation but

14:03

to me, when I use

14:05

that word, I want it to mean more like

14:07

just a little bit weird and thoughtful

14:11

and whatever but yeah, taking over at Wayfinder

14:13

has been pretty cool. There's

14:15

something that is like

14:18

core edgy about the Wayfinder brand

14:20

where you expect to, you

14:22

know, push things a little bit and you know,

14:24

but within some reason, right? You know, it's got

14:26

a, you know, it's

14:29

not the craziest ingredients but it does need to

14:31

be the coolest beer. Exactly. I

14:34

like that. But

14:37

you know, changing from being a lead

14:39

at a brewery that has, you

14:42

know, a big team to being the

14:44

boss at a smaller brewery is

14:46

a shift and I felt

14:48

pretty prepared for all of that, you know,

14:50

with the skills that I learned at Breakside for,

14:52

I can remember it was six or seven years but for

14:55

a hot minute and yeah, ready

14:57

to take that on and has been

14:59

learning a lot in the last year

15:01

and you know, whenever you think

15:03

you know anything about anything, you are quickly reminded

15:05

that you don't know shit about shit and

15:08

I kind of think that's fun because

15:10

I don't know, just it's fun to learn

15:12

and I have, as most people do in

15:15

the beer industry, the network

15:18

I have of folks that are willing to like

15:20

hold me up while I'm in this learning stage

15:22

has been really incredible and I don't know,

15:26

super rewarding and fun and nerdy

15:29

and hard and brutal but also, I don't

15:31

know, all the things. It's been pretty fucking

15:33

cool. I think, you know,

15:35

when people ask me what traits

15:37

make up those traits of the greatest

15:40

brewers, it is that constant

15:42

openness to learning and

15:44

it's those brewers and I will tell

15:46

you amongst some of the world's greatest,

15:48

most award-winning and most highly respected brewers,

15:52

every time I have conversations with

15:54

them, they are wanting to learn

15:56

about things from other younger brewers, from

15:59

folks that are... pushing new, trying new

16:01

techniques and they value that every

16:03

bit as much as sharing what they

16:05

know because we're all contributing to this

16:08

broader pool of knowledge in the

16:10

brewing world and so it

16:12

is those folks that think they have it

16:14

all figured out that actually are probably in

16:17

the worst shape out here and so obviously

16:19

that's no one listening to this podcast because

16:21

anyone listening to this podcast clearly wants to

16:24

learn from how other people are doing things

16:26

and so we'll use that segue to talk

16:28

about how you do some of these things

16:30

in that kind of Pacific Northwest IPA realm

16:32

which is of course big for Wayfinder both

16:35

in the regular IPA world and in the

16:37

cold IPA world which really

16:39

are just shades of difference for each other these days

16:41

and then also of course in the

16:44

traditional logger space and in the hoppy logger

16:46

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16:48

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where we start us talk about ip a first and

18:20

then lager. Sir. Ah,

18:23

You're old. You're gonna laugh at me when

18:25

we talk. Oh yeah why? I mean way

18:27

fighter of we find her Actually your the

18:29

original called Ip Relapse as one of our

18:32

beers a year years ago. Guess an answer?

18:34

You walk into your Ip a program away

18:36

fighter that people have expectations around. Gal.

18:40

Had to take stock of things and you know

18:42

where have you us pushed over the last? you

18:44

know. six a month since then. Yeah, so

18:46

there's less even. Alas is because you

18:49

know my my whole career at Siegelman

18:51

and Break side think I would? Maybe

18:53

I have one or two beers year

18:56

because I just wasn't making as beer

18:58

is because I'm Dylan who. After

19:00

I left, a kind of restructured darn the

19:02

program. and he's he's the boss now of

19:05

our Indian running that whole program. But anyways,

19:07

He works at the slapped on location

19:09

and he was. He made the hoppy

19:11

beers inside doesn't have still and ah.

19:14

See how it's going to be? Hoppy beers, a

19:17

break side? You're going to someone else that you

19:19

need to make more than three now. barrels of

19:21

that clean. Ah, I'm You know I hadn't heard.

19:24

Bit of success with a reinvention of Woodlawn

19:26

Pale which is a long time break. Siberian

19:28

and I loved Make a Nasa those. My

19:30

beard. I dry hopped every year for

19:33

competition mouth about it and and then

19:35

I started. I lay signer Norbert Hofer

19:37

have to make ip a Saudi make

19:39

ip eggs and you know at work

19:41

at this you know brewery. That

19:44

is. I

19:46

mean like side one out World Beer Cup

19:48

for such a system or Gbr? it's ah.

19:51

For. A Ba and. Your.

19:53

i fundamentally understand and sir know what said

19:55

hops aren't things like that but it was

19:58

it was a little moment for me I'm

20:00

like, all right, you got to get it together. And

20:04

I've kind of been having like a

20:06

blast making hoppy beer. And

20:09

like you said, around cold IPA, folks

20:11

are excited to make their own cold

20:14

IPA, send them over, talk about it.

20:16

Um, want to make sure there's stuff

20:18

on draft. And when

20:20

I came in, there were like, there was

20:22

always the OG cold IPA and would

20:25

sometimes be an additional cold IPA. And I kind

20:28

of switched it so that we have rotating cold

20:30

IPAs. Um, and instead

20:32

of just always having cold on that's on,

20:34

um, during the fall and winter months and

20:36

we'll switch over to jazz, which and another

20:38

one over the summer and I don't

20:41

know, it's kind of fun to mess around

20:43

with those and, uh, do

20:45

that. But I got an email today from,

20:48

uh, this morning from a Bart at, uh,

20:50

Pinta in Poland, he outlines to me how

20:52

many cold IPAs they now make per

20:55

year, which is eight. How old IPAs

20:57

are made in the entire country of

20:59

Poland. And, uh, you know,

21:01

and so it's funny, it's fun to watch how

21:03

this thing that started a wayfinder just, you know,

21:05

percolated out into the world and it's become a

21:07

thing, huh, you know, it's pretty cool. But then

21:10

it creates this weight of expectation for you all,

21:12

because when people come back to wayfinder, I mean,

21:15

you know, you have to deliver something for

21:17

them. And when you talk to a lot of different

21:19

folks around the U S and I haven't had

21:21

as many international conversations, but you know, there's,

21:23

there's people that have been making a hoppy

21:25

beer, especially West coast IPA with 3,470 logger

21:29

use for a long time. And,

21:31

um, one of my buds, Jake at West bound

21:33

and down here in town, um, does

21:36

what makes really incredible beers that he

21:38

calls West coast IPA that aren't necessarily

21:40

labeled as cold IPA. So there's a lot of

21:42

really cool stuff people are doing. Highland parks doing

21:45

the same. Exactly for a long time. A lot

21:47

of Southern California brewers now doing the same. Mm-hmm.

21:50

And, uh, you know, the, whichever

21:53

way you want to call the beer,

21:55

it's exciting when people are, you know,

21:57

excited about innovation and innovation.

22:00

is something that's super close to my heart, so I love that. And

22:02

then for West Coast IPA, you

22:04

know, I kind of,

22:07

there's some other things. So like... Do you

22:09

now vary the yeast between Cold IPA and West

22:11

Coast IPA or do you now also use Lager

22:14

yeast for your West Coast IPAs and simply

22:17

change the grain bill so that there's... Yeah.

22:20

...it's not that adjunct focus? I've done

22:22

a little bit of both. Right

22:24

now, just because of Hustle Bustle,

22:26

I've been using some ale yeast

22:29

for our West Coast IPA. And,

22:32

you know, we have talked about kind of

22:34

switching that to 34.72, but it's a little

22:36

bit more of, I

22:39

need more yeast to be able to do that

22:41

and it's easy to get some... Can't

22:43

you just prop it up with, you know, your lagers? Come

22:45

on. Yeah, right? You know,

22:47

then we need it for lagers. But

22:49

yeah, so

22:52

my approach to West Coast IPA and again,

22:54

a funny part is, you know, you're as

22:56

far along in your career as I am

22:58

ten years in and pretty

23:00

established and a lot of these things I

23:03

haven't done before because I didn't have to

23:05

working at a big company. So this year

23:07

was my first year doing hop selection. One

23:09

of the reasons was because when hop selection

23:11

happened and I was offered the opportunity at

23:13

break side, I was doing wine harvest and

23:15

so I wasn't able to do hop selection.

23:17

And, you know, I've participated in conversations around

23:19

it and knew extensively about our hop lots

23:21

and things like that, but I had never

23:23

done that by myself. So this year was

23:26

my first year and we're a smaller

23:29

brewery, so hop selection isn't necessarily the

23:31

most accessible thing. And YCH

23:34

had a really cool open door

23:36

project this year that allowed some smaller

23:38

breweries to come in and do hop

23:40

selection on sort

23:43

of excess hops that weren't contracted

23:45

for. And, you know, it's nerve

23:47

wracking for the first time by

23:49

yourself and we have a small team and

23:52

we're busy and didn't, weren't able to send more

23:54

people up this year. So it was me by

23:56

myself selecting hops and I'm like, well, hopefully

23:58

I know how to do this. I've

24:00

learned a lot. My best friend, Sam,

24:03

works at Von Ebert and he's

24:05

sort of been my steward through a lot of the

24:07

hop stuff because that's one of his big passion projects. We

24:09

talked through the

24:11

hop contracts that we have

24:14

at Wayfinder and sort of which

24:16

ways I wanted to move things and adjust. When

24:19

I didn't really know what our West Coast IPA was

24:21

going to be because I didn't know what I wanted to do yet,

24:23

I didn't really know what to contract. Working

24:26

with my suppliers and all that kind of stuff has been a really

24:29

fun learning curve for me honestly.

24:31

That's kind of my approach

24:33

to West Coast IPA is getting

24:35

down and learning more about

24:38

my raw materials and

24:40

picking and choosing. Our

24:42

West Coast flagship right now is

24:45

called Winged Creatures and

24:47

it's old faithful. It's the exact opposite what

24:49

Kevin says in his Cold IPA lecture like

24:52

don't do citrus and co-mosaic but guess what,

24:54

Kevi? Yes,

25:00

yes. The truth comes out. It

25:02

does work. We're

25:07

making a really cool beer and then we can kind

25:09

of branch off of that and we're a newer team

25:11

together and making dope beer and

25:13

one of the –

25:17

Yeah, now as you get into making

25:19

West Coast IPA and having to wrap

25:22

all of these ingredients, hops into

25:24

it, talk about your creative

25:26

process. What does that look like? I love

25:28

that you come out of this creative meat

25:30

science background and so there's a little bit

25:32

of that alchemy that has to take place

25:34

in it. How do you start thinking about

25:37

flavors and ingredients? Do you

25:40

start with what you want somebody to taste

25:42

like, work back from it? Do you start

25:44

with the ingredients themselves and think about

25:46

where you can take these and what's possible from

25:48

them? How does that creative process work for you?

25:50

I think it's a little bit of both. Specifically

25:54

with winged creatures, I

25:57

am a big fan of crowdsourcing

25:59

and and gathering information. I just

26:01

wanna know, even if I'm cooking

26:03

something at home, I'm gonna read 17 recipes

26:06

and pick which things that I think

26:08

sound good. When

26:11

designing that, I know how Brickside

26:13

makes IPA, I know how Sam,

26:16

out of on Ebert, makes IPA. I

26:19

talked a lot with Jake from Westbound

26:21

and Down, just to switch it up

26:23

a little bit and learn some really

26:26

cool techniques with some maybe

26:28

non-traditional ways to use hop

26:30

extracts and things like that. So

26:33

my creative process sort of starts

26:35

with an end goal of maybe

26:37

a flavor profile and then building

26:40

the recipe around it, or sometimes it'll be

26:43

like one ingredient, be like, I know that I

26:45

wanna use this super dank mosaic and the dry

26:47

hop, and then what other things around it should

26:49

I build? In

26:51

West Coast IPA, I like a lot of the

26:56

tropical dank, not necessarily

26:58

pineapple tropical, but getting more

27:00

in the like guava, passion fruit,

27:04

that whole realm. So

27:07

I don't know, just kind of

27:09

picking what I want to

27:12

end up with and building hops

27:14

around that. There's a slightly

27:16

danker element generally to those

27:18

Portland-specific Northwest IPAs, maybe a

27:20

little more so than the

27:23

Southern California iterations of those.

27:26

I think that traditionally the

27:28

bitterness has been elevated, but I think a

27:30

lot of folks have, I

27:33

mean a lot of folks have been sort of- It's

27:35

IPA bitter, come on. Eliminating that though, like even

27:37

break side IPA over the last handful of

27:39

years has changed pretty, same,

27:42

same, but different. And I

27:45

think that I'm trying to figure out exactly what

27:47

I want. I like assertive bitterness, but I don't

27:49

like resiny

27:52

IPAs, so like how do you make

27:54

something that's not too juicy jammy, but

27:57

has enough structure in it. And yeah,

27:59

I've been- been getting down with

28:01

that, I feel like, you know, switch

28:03

a little bit over with West Coast

28:06

pills and for whole, let's

28:08

just go even in a whole other direction. Something

28:11

that I've been sort of fixated on, especially

28:14

as like a lager brewer, what are

28:16

we going to do with these hops that are

28:18

being feisty coming from Europe? And

28:20

what ways can you have American

28:22

hops taste cool in a lager

28:25

beer, whether it's inauthentic or

28:27

not? Like what are we going to

28:29

do? You know, the beer that you mentioned

28:31

you tried at Wayfinder

28:33

that was on your list this year, which is a

28:35

very, very cool thing for me. Also, before we even

28:37

talk about that, how did you, you said you were

28:39

in there in town and you tried those beers and

28:42

like when you're making the list

28:45

that your favorite beers of the

28:47

year, like what about that beer was exciting

28:51

for you or what made it? So

28:54

I'm going to pull up my phone here. You

28:56

know, I taste a lot of beers, you know, a couple thousand

28:59

in any given year. Some

29:01

I write reviews of for the magazine, some I'm

29:03

just tasting out and about. You

29:05

know, some hit me in certain ways. When

29:08

something really hits me, I just stop

29:10

and like pull up my notes on my phone and then

29:13

I just start writing about it because it's like,

29:15

this is something that I want to keep more

29:17

notes on. I check everything

29:20

in and untapped that I try to just

29:22

so I can always keep a record of

29:24

it. It's a great

29:26

database. I don't score anything because that's

29:28

super lame and nobody in the brewing

29:30

industry should ever be scoring things themselves

29:32

on untapped. But

29:35

I digress. I use it just so I can always keep

29:37

track of what I've had. Your library. Yeah,

29:39

right. It's just a quick database that

29:41

shows me what I have and I can go back.

29:43

I also do that. I pull down that spreadsheet at

29:45

the end of every year, kind of go through, remember

29:47

those beers that I had and where I have. It's

29:49

like, oh, you know, that's another part of my method.

29:53

But there was a moment where

29:55

I was sitting in a silver stamp

29:57

last fall and had some Tilcan on

29:59

Goos. draft goose and it was like this

30:02

watermelon character is something I've never

30:04

tasted out of Tilcan Goose. Like

30:08

briny? Little bit,

30:10

a little bit but it just had that

30:12

kind of cucumber watermelon character to it that

30:15

just felt so bright and so refreshing

30:17

and we're in hot ass Las Vegas

30:20

and the Silver Sand is amazing. What a

30:23

killer beer bar. But all of those things

30:25

I just, I went back, I never do this but

30:27

I went back the next night just

30:29

to go drink that beer on draft again.

30:31

I love when that happens. It's such a

30:33

like, it's such a wonderful feeling because

30:35

you just want to, you're like, was it as good

30:37

as I thought it was? And then when it is,

30:39

you're like, man, right. I went back the

30:42

next night and of course Dan from Milk

30:44

the Funk was there and Matt from Able

30:46

Baker so actually ended up hanging out with

30:48

them and all these random kind of connections

30:50

was really fun. But I made

30:52

those notes and you know, and

30:54

I did the same thing with, you know,

30:57

for Wayfinder. It

30:59

tasted like, you know, there's something about this and

31:02

I think the thing that struck me is that,

31:04

you know, there's this grassy-ish

31:06

character to European

31:09

Pilsner which it

31:11

should be there and there was

31:13

something about the idea that of the

31:16

fresh hop flavor that worked really well

31:18

in that context. They didn't fight against

31:20

that kind of, you know, core, you

31:23

know, grassy character and that grassy character

31:25

is malt as much as hops, you

31:28

know, and that together it worked really

31:30

well. And

31:32

then the kind of restraint and subtleness

31:35

of that kind of strata peachy note to it

31:37

just, you know, didn't need

31:39

to be over the top. It just needed to

31:41

hover in there and kind of soften and make

31:43

things really pleasant to drink. Anyway,

31:45

it struck me and so, you know, like I said, I

31:48

don't normally make, I've made notes for about eight or ten

31:50

beers this year and that was one of them or last

31:52

year. That was one of them. Yeah. That's

31:55

how it ended up on my list. That

31:58

was what you were hoping to get out of Listening to Our Crap. It's

32:00

worst episode of a podcast but then I didn't

32:02

share my the this just as i mean I

32:04

hired a lot of really great stories but I

32:06

was like this guy. Yeah.

32:09

So into the real I ask

32:11

is to sort of answer your

32:14

question again about process. So that

32:16

beer was. Oh my whole idea

32:18

was on his fresh hub strategy. Taste

32:20

like paint, not like state and how

32:23

do you do that would you? do?

32:25

You need a little bit higher alcohol?

32:27

Do need a little bit more malt

32:29

sweetness like what do you do and.

32:33

Again, this is part of messing around with lager.

32:35

We're in American hops and what's interesting is that

32:38

a west coast pills not necessarily like would move.

32:40

What can you do? What's cool? What what smells

32:42

good? What taste good? What is. You

32:45

know, I. Don't I'm just some I

32:48

like to mess around and this is sort of that.

32:50

like esoteric his own were. Like. Get a

32:52

little bit weird the not too weird

32:54

and my style in general is like

32:56

delicate light handed. What was the

32:58

process that use? Because I definitely your

33:01

me obviously. But notes in their backs

33:03

in quality for me? Yeah. com. Era,

33:05

where was it is? There are lots of

33:07

different processes for making for a shop. Years

33:09

we have tried to catalog every single one

33:11

of them. You know that we're excited. Prose

33:14

is very different from a single who approve

33:16

of the bridal approach. Your

33:18

vote for Fremont? Approach him so you

33:20

know there's lots of ways to make

33:22

really killer for us up your I

33:24

was really Sigma I love the idea

33:27

of making a us are blogger announcers

33:29

to fresh off by Pierre your yeah

33:31

know how did you capture that character?

33:33

He has some of that grassy hobby.

33:36

Digital character? yeah, character. but

33:38

then also some of those

33:41

softer, fruity notes. So. Let

33:43

a handful of years ago a break side

33:45

and made a fresh Hub Sterling pills and

33:47

it was a. Killer pills also

33:50

end it was. You.

33:52

Know maybe a little bit more. calories than than folks

33:54

want killer beer to be a had a

33:56

little bit of east veil to it and

33:58

damn Something about that,

34:01

like, lager used with the

34:03

fresh hop oils just has this,

34:06

like, really pretty, like, watermelon green,

34:09

grassy, but, like, bright and not,

34:11

like, bitter, and I just really

34:13

liked that. So, this

34:15

year, last year, I wanted to make

34:17

a Keller Pills to sort of accentuate

34:19

that, but I wanted to use Strata

34:22

instead of something like Sterling, because I wanted to

34:25

get that pink. What

34:27

I did was made a little bit

34:29

higher alcohol pilsner, and I can't remember

34:31

how I hopped it in the kettle.

34:34

I think that I kept the BUs

34:36

fairly low, around 20,

34:38

with a small charge of Strata

34:41

T90 in the Whirlpool.

34:44

And the goal was to

34:46

actually get a decent yield out

34:48

of a fresh hop pilsner

34:50

with a hops-added cold side that were frozen.

34:53

You know, that was, that's how I learned

34:55

how to do fresh hop processing. That's definitely

34:57

the break side method, right? Cold

34:59

side, fresh hop steep. Yep, cold

35:01

side, fresh hop steep after you

35:03

fractured the flowers after

35:06

freezing them with nitrogen. And, you know,

35:08

that's kind of how I know how to do it. And I

35:11

know that you have a lot of loss, because a

35:13

lot of hops, beer gets stuck in

35:15

the hops in the bright tank. So, the goal was to,

35:17

you know, make

35:19

it a little bit higher gravity, add some

35:21

deaerated water to bring that gravity

35:24

back down into like pilsner zone. But

35:27

the, you

35:29

know, something that we always talked about was

35:31

artifacts of fermentation. Like when you do those

35:33

higher gravity brews, whether you're diluting it with

35:35

water or whatever later on, what

35:39

are you getting from that

35:41

higher alcohol fermentation? You get a little

35:43

bit of glycerol and mouth fuel

35:45

and aroma and texture, you know, just

35:47

all these different things. And I

35:50

was like, so what about with like lager beer, with

35:52

a pale lager beer? Yeah, so

35:54

I think some of that, like a little bit of strata in

35:56

the world, a little bit of malt sweetness. And

35:59

then... The

36:02

beer sat on those frozen fresh hops

36:04

for I think two days and

36:07

we tried to get the

36:09

earliest pick strata so it

36:11

wasn't super stinky and worked

36:14

with Brad over at Crosby and he was super great

36:16

about making sure that we got the type of strata

36:18

that we wanted and ended up

36:21

being a little bit later than I was expecting.

36:23

Like an hour away from you two so it's

36:25

a pretty quick drive to get them there. Yeah.

36:28

We had six picked up Jose, one of

36:30

our brewers and Jose

36:32

has been in the brewing industry for

36:34

a long time and worked at Green

36:36

Flash before moving up to Portland and

36:38

worked around hops

36:40

his whole career. Never been to a hop field so we got

36:42

to go out there, pick them and put them in the van

36:44

and bring them back and put them in the beer and the

36:46

full romance of Pacific Northwest

36:49

fresh hop brewing. But yeah,

36:51

the main goal of the beer was

36:53

just to keep it pink and I didn't know if it was

36:55

going to work or not and it ended up not being

36:57

too dank and whether that was

36:59

by the decisions we made or

37:01

the luck of the hop gods,

37:03

you tell me. But

37:06

yeah, just some kind of cool approaches. How do you

37:09

freeze them with nitrogen then? You're

37:13

doing that yourself. Yeah, we did that ourselves. There

37:15

are a lot of really cool products. I mean it's just

37:18

a quick freeze process. Quick freeze

37:20

with liquid nitrogen, crush them, put them in a

37:22

hot bag, throw them in the tank. It

37:25

doesn't create more

37:28

distracting kind of polyphenol characters.

37:30

I mean that's interesting to

37:32

me. You think

37:35

that one of the benefits of that

37:37

kind of whole cone steep of a fresh hop is

37:39

that it's not pulling

37:41

some of the crazier, less desirable characters

37:44

out of it but when you break

37:46

things open like that, I don't know.

37:49

Yeah, and you have more contact and you're

37:51

not... What

37:53

kind of concentrate or kind of volume of fresh

37:55

hops are you using? Dang, let's see if I can pull this

37:57

out of my brain. I

37:59

did. go lower

38:03

volume. I think that I did, trying

38:05

to remember how much a box of hops

38:07

weighs, whatever. Those

38:11

of you who know know, it was two boxes

38:14

of cones. I don't know if that was 20 pounds

38:16

or 40 pounds or something like that. For

38:19

a, it was like a 20 barrel brew and we diluted

38:23

it up to like 25 barrels or something like

38:25

that. That's a pretty subtle fresh hop.

38:27

Just a kiss. Yeah. Amplified by a little

38:30

bit of Whirlpool T92. Yep.

38:32

I think it was like two pounds in the

38:34

10 barrel batch, so just barely. And

38:37

to kind of build off that, we were

38:39

having fun and I wanted

38:42

to make a West Coast Pills and

38:44

Crosby was doing a project where they

38:46

were freezing fresh

38:48

flowers and then putting

38:51

them through their CGX line and they

38:53

didn't, since it was a project, they

38:55

didn't pelletize them, they just had powder.

38:57

So they, we were part of

38:59

a trial program and we made a West Coast

39:01

Pills that was some German

39:04

hops outside and then American

39:06

hops dry hopped and included

39:08

in the dry hop was

39:11

the Strata CGX fresh hop

39:13

powder. Ooh. And ended up

39:16

being- With a nitrogenized and then,

39:18

you know, pelletized for

39:20

you or not pelletized with

39:22

powderized. Exactly. So instead of doing that last step

39:24

to pellet, so it was just that powder, which is funny

39:26

because we're like, all right, so what do we do? How

39:29

do we get this powder into the tank? And we

39:33

ended up, the product didn't smell as

39:35

good as I wanted it to cold, but

39:37

in the beer, it smelled great. And

39:41

we ended up, we won our

39:43

first medal together at Wayfinder as a team.

39:46

And for, I brought

39:48

you the un-fresh hopped version,

39:50

it's called Altered State because it's hard

39:52

to name beers and whatever, but this

39:54

is dope, West Coast Pills. And we

39:57

just made a non-fresh hopped version

40:00

of it with the

40:02

Stratus CGX, just a regular, not

40:04

fresh hop from Crosby. It tastes

40:07

pretty cool. There's

40:09

this cool pink, like we were talking about early.

40:11

It has some mosaic in there too. So a

40:13

little bit of dank, a little bit of pink.

40:16

And at the end has this guava

40:18

passion fruit pickup. And yeah,

40:20

I don't know. It's a cool beer. And

40:22

like I said, I've been having a lot

40:24

of fun doing projects with hop suppliers and

40:26

messing around with hoppy beer. It's

40:29

interesting to hear that approach to building

40:31

this kind of West Coast buildner versus

40:34

some of the Southern California approach, which

40:36

tends to be maybe a little

40:38

bit more citra driven. I just want to, let's parse

40:40

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41:30

I'm curious about this. So you've continued on

41:33

this West Coast Pilsner brand, but it

41:35

also seems to make sense to work

41:37

strata into this given that it's

41:39

an Oregon hop, given that you're so close to

41:42

it. I mean, there's almost a local and a

41:44

regional story to it in addition to the flavors

41:48

that make these beers your own

41:51

rather than just carbon copies

41:53

of a Southern California iteration on West

41:55

Coast Pils. I've

42:01

been a couple since I've been at Wayfinder, but

42:03

we built the Fresh Hop West

42:05

Coast Pills around

42:12

the CGX product. When

42:17

we were remaking, I'm like, is there anything

42:20

that we can do to replicate that flavor?

42:23

But the closest we could get to

42:25

some of the positive,

42:28

sweet, juicy components

42:31

would be a concentrated

42:34

nitrogen pellet, which is why we

42:37

chose that Stratus

42:39

CGX hop. Like

42:41

you said, we started

42:43

from maybe not

42:45

necessarily an end

42:48

goal, but more to see what something

42:50

could do and what it could be.

42:52

And we like that, building the beer

42:54

around it with accessible ingredients, which you

42:56

don't necessarily have all year. I

42:58

know a lot of hot producers

43:01

and suppliers are trying to figure

43:03

out ways to get people

43:06

fresh hops who aren't in the Pacific Northwest.

43:10

And I've done some projects with

43:12

YCH at Breakside for their 301

43:14

frozen fresh hop pellets too. Sometimes

43:18

it's fun to build stuff around an

43:21

ingredient, not always because we're trying to

43:23

be consistent. But yeah,

43:25

that was a particular cool approach. What

43:28

are some of the other West Coast Pillsner approaches

43:30

that you've taken? Again,

43:34

pulling things from my brain. If you ask me what's in any

43:36

of my recipes, I'm like, I don't know, I have to look

43:39

because it's an empty hallway in there. I

43:43

made a beer with

43:45

Sam from Bon Ibert and we went

43:47

with like Southern Hemisphere because I really

43:49

like it talked about earlier, I kind

43:51

of like that Venice white

43:53

grape peachy passion fruit type thing.

43:55

And we were just kind of messing around with

43:57

beer and I think we did like mosey.

44:00

Zayacryo, Citracryo,

44:02

and then some like Rawaka to

44:04

get some of that passion fruit. And we

44:06

went a little bit heavier on, you

44:09

know, sort of pounds per

44:11

barrel West Coast IPA, hot

44:14

side with lager

44:17

yeast fermented warmer than

44:19

our traditional lagers, but colder than a cold IPA.

44:21

So, you know, kind of, I think we knocked

44:23

out at like 52F and

44:27

kept it there and then did a temporary to like 57 or

44:30

something like that. And it was a little

44:32

bit more like West Coast IPA

44:34

with a pilsner with some, or

44:37

excuse me, with like lager fermentation. And,

44:40

you know, I think that I, we also

44:42

filtered that beer because, you

44:44

know, I didn't have a filter at break

44:47

side, but we find beers and so sort

44:49

of figuring out like, do I want to

44:51

filter these beers? Do I want to find

44:53

these beers? What makes everything

44:55

stay intact? And I felt like that

44:57

first one we did filtering the West

44:59

Coast pills sort of stripped some of

45:01

the sulfur that I wanted around and

45:04

it's all smelled and tasted great, but

45:06

it was a little bit brighter

45:08

pre-filter. So now we

45:11

just find, lightly find those and

45:14

don't filter them. So that's something that I've

45:17

learned and liked quite a bit, but

45:20

that's my only. You don't want to lose

45:22

the sulfur. I love that nice

45:24

little sulfur. And I think that's what I love

45:26

about a lot of Southern Hemisphere hops is that

45:28

they have those adjacent compounds that, and

45:31

I find that they end up like, you know,

45:33

I ended up describing them as like linen or

45:35

even like a white floral or

45:37

fresh, just fresh. They have this almost

45:39

like, you know, water on

45:42

a white flower bud kind of, you

45:44

know, after rain kind of little

45:46

bit of petrichor and a little bit of

45:48

that just fresh floral element to them. And

45:51

I, a lot of the things I do, I call it like

45:53

witchy brewing where I could read about

45:56

it and I could tell you why, but sometimes I

45:58

just like having a feeling about it. to

46:00

drive some people crazy, but like for me

46:02

the idea is in my head the

46:04

way that it looks is like you know picture like a

46:06

little cloud of hops in your beer

46:08

and then when that gets kind of like diminished

46:10

a little bit maybe like when you're smelling it

46:13

that little cloud isn't getting puffed in your face

46:15

when you drink it and I

46:17

don't know just those those stripping those some of those

46:19

sulfur compounds out just took out

46:21

some of the intensity that we were smelling

46:23

before that and you know trialing it the

46:25

other way at least with the

46:27

hops we were using worked really well for us and

46:30

we've liked that. That's interesting

46:32

it's almost like salt in that regard right like

46:34

it's not that it needs to be the flavor

46:36

but it also can bring out the definition and

46:38

other flavors and other aromas. Yeah I think so

46:40

or at least that's what we've been

46:42

experiencing. So cool

46:45

are there other hops that were or

46:47

do you you know what you're using

46:49

the same kind of west coast pilsner

46:51

base for this or do you vary

46:53

your malt based on you know the

46:55

kind of hop intensity and direction of

46:57

these things? I am

46:59

using a little bit less character for malt

47:01

for the west coast pill so I'm not

47:04

using something like sweet and characterful like environment

47:07

pills. We've been using a couple

47:10

different things we

47:12

just recently switched to Canada malting superior

47:14

pills I like that quite a bit

47:17

super pale dry

47:20

not inert but not loud

47:22

and not sweet and doughy

47:26

and have done some like

47:29

raw premium pills and stuff like that but I'm

47:31

leaning a lot more towards those like American straightforward

47:36

less characterful malts

47:38

and simple step

47:41

mash. Again I have

47:44

to look at things to remember but more

47:47

and more movement to domestic malt wherever

47:49

you know given the economic concerns on

47:51

that. I mean they also we've had

47:54

some really positive like the beers taste good so

47:56

it's not even just to you know you know.

48:00

you know, obviously we're paying attention

48:02

to our impact on the world by

48:04

importing things and I mean still use

48:06

a lot of continental

48:09

hops and grown malt and

48:11

things like that. But yeah, I've had

48:13

a lot of success with those malts and they taste good.

48:16

Sure. What do you use those more

48:18

characterful malts in? I

48:21

definitely will use some more

48:23

characterful malts in beers that are, I want

48:25

to be a little bit more driven by

48:28

malt. Not

48:31

to be too simple but like my

48:34

little baby at Wayfinder, my first beer

48:36

and kind of the thing that I've

48:38

been running with is French

48:40

Pills. Again

48:42

with my like esoteric vibes,

48:46

we've been, not that French Pills is a made up style

48:48

but it's not a made up style, right? I

48:52

like to make a beer style not to

48:54

be, I don't

48:56

know. Alsatian sounds so much more lyrical

48:59

and romantic but no. It

49:01

does but like we all know if people can't order

49:03

something off the menu, it's not going to sell. French

49:06

Pills, right? Yeah. People are like,

49:08

oh I know what French is. I love how

49:10

you know, in America if

49:13

you name something Italian, oh that sounds interesting.

49:15

It sounds romantic. I'm like, how am I

49:17

so exotic? I say

49:19

that because I grew up on a street

49:21

called Tuscany, Tuscany Place.

49:24

Wow, you're so cultured. Right, but

49:26

if you look at like subdivisions

49:28

in America, like how

49:30

there's just shit loads of subdivisions

49:33

in America like filled with like

49:35

similar tract homes, all

49:38

named after Italian roads,

49:40

Italian towns and so

49:42

here we are trying to evoke these ideas

49:44

of this romanticism on even some

49:46

of the most mundane things. Yeah, again, we're

49:48

having fun. For me it's like... So these

49:50

work. I mean we love to like be

49:53

snarky and cynical about using these terms but

49:55

it's not like it's

49:57

only unique to the beer industry. This is just a...

50:00

Yeah, I

50:02

think for me it's, you

50:05

know, it made a rose petal pill in

50:07

our last year called Midsommar and

50:09

we released it on Summer Solstice, my favorite

50:11

day of the year. And I'm just having

50:13

fun. What do we call a summer pills?

50:15

What's a summer pills? You tell me. Fun,

50:17

fun, fun. We're about

50:19

to make a batch

50:22

666, hell yeah brother,

50:25

lager and we're calling it the sparkling lager. What

50:28

is that? I don't know. But

50:30

anyways, French pills, I know some other folks

50:33

are making that but in my head what

50:35

it means is a little bit rustic. At

50:38

the time I couldn't really get Franco Belge. Is

50:41

that how we're saying this? Sure. Sure.

50:44

I couldn't really get French base malt

50:46

but I was able to get Dingemann's castle

50:49

at the time and use castle pills. So

50:51

you know, a neighbor doing my best and

50:54

Stristle's Fall is my favorite hop and

50:56

I really love that it tastes the

50:58

way that rose petals and black pepper

51:00

taste. And when you add

51:03

rose petals to beer they taste like sort

51:06

of black pepper and floral. So to

51:08

me, Stristle's Fall tastes like rose petals and

51:10

rose petals taste like Stristle's Fall. And

51:13

spelt is one of my favorite. So

51:16

you know, kind of getting this more

51:18

characterful, sweet, doughy,

51:20

Pils-R-Mall and then adding a little bit

51:22

of sweet, spicy,

51:25

body building

51:28

heirloom wheat. And it's kind

51:30

of funny because I'm like building up the beer

51:32

to make it dry. So I have all these

51:34

like characterful things but you know,

51:36

stepping and mash out to caution, doing things that

51:39

I think are creating a drier beer but also

51:42

still having some again, malt

51:45

artifacts around and mineral forward,

51:47

hoppy bitter but still on

51:49

that like floral black pepper

51:52

range and I

51:54

don't know, just again, having fun. The

51:57

first batch was one that I

51:59

was figuring out how to make. to make at the brewery. So it was

52:01

kind of like alpine strawberries and

52:03

whatever. And then I learned that if you

52:05

add magnesium to a beer that is getting

52:08

decocted, you can pick up more melanoidin. And

52:10

so the beer was like a little bit

52:12

sweeter and darker than I was expecting. And

52:14

then the next batch kept everything the same

52:17

and took the magnesium out. And the beer

52:19

was like more pale and didn't have as

52:21

much color pickup. So learning,

52:23

learning on the way here. And

52:26

yeah, the second batch and their

52:28

throughout was a little bit more on brand

52:30

of what I wanted. That like, whatever

52:32

you think rustic is, a

52:36

little bit rustic and a little bit fun. We do

52:38

filter it so it's not as rustic as it could

52:41

be, but that was my idea for

52:43

that. So that would be a beer that uses a

52:45

little bit more characterful malt and

52:48

traditional German beers and traditional

52:50

Czech beers were using a

52:52

lot of true to style malt.

52:57

We just made this beer, one of my

53:00

favorite labels. It looks like a cabinet of

53:02

curiosities. It's very beautiful, but

53:04

it's called Keepsake. It's a Vienna lager.

53:07

And like if

53:10

you were to put this in a competition, I don't

53:12

know that it would fit to the style very

53:14

well as a Vienna lager. It's 50-50

53:17

Pilsner and Marman

53:19

Vienna malt and

53:21

then a bag of a caramel

53:23

Vienna, or excuse me, half a bag of

53:26

caramel Vienna, just as a little bit. It's

53:28

pretty pale and has a little

53:30

bit of tete in it. And

53:33

I don't know, it's like that sweet

53:35

perfumey Vienna malt, but

53:38

it's not super, doesn't

53:41

sit on your tongue for super long and then just a

53:43

little bit of tete. So I don't know, this is probably

53:45

one of my favorite beers that we've made in a

53:47

little while. And it's just somehow

53:50

exists without being too loud and

53:52

just has enough character. I'm excited

53:54

for you when you get to try it because it's a

53:56

cool little beer. Sounds great. I'm

54:00

planning on talking to you about it but

54:02

you mentioned Goza earlier. Yeah. Being

54:04

this dogmatic style that you love to focus

54:06

on. It's certainly not something that we talk

54:08

about much here on the podcast but I

54:11

feel like I would be missing the opportunity

54:13

to dive into you nerding out on the

54:15

subject of Goza. Sure.

54:18

So talk to me about what you've learned

54:20

in brewing Goza but also visiting LightZig and

54:23

doing more of that kind of background

54:25

work on understanding how to brew that

54:27

beer. Yeah, so I remember when I

54:29

was like an itty bitty baby brewer and

54:32

Tanya Cornett came out with German Sparkle

54:34

Party which is the Broehlner Weisze and

54:37

I was like, this is so cool.

54:39

And I remember Whitney was opening the

54:42

Portland 10 barrel location and Tanya was

54:44

at the opening and she was like,

54:46

I'll introduce you to Tanya. I

54:48

was like, oh my god. And

54:50

now Tanya is one of my good

54:52

friends and, you know, JBF roommates and

54:54

we're actually speaking at CBC together this

54:56

year. And anyways,

54:59

Tanya is amazing. The

55:01

ultimate. Just amazing. Talk

55:03

about people who always want to learn and are

55:05

willing to do anything to make their beer

55:08

better. She is incredible and if you've never

55:10

had a conversation with her about how she

55:12

continues to improve beers

55:15

every single time she makes them, you could

55:17

learn a lot from her. She's great. She

55:19

intimidated me when we did that podcast two years

55:21

ago. It was two years ago. I've

55:24

never had someone show up to a pop. First,

55:27

we didn't have a lot of, we went through a.

55:29

Was she so prepared? I went through a PR

55:31

person and so I wasn't exactly sure that she even

55:34

knew what was going to happen. Yeah.

55:36

And I was a little afraid that it might not even have, I drove all the way

55:39

to Ben just for that podcast because I'm insane,

55:41

by the way. We like to have fun. And

55:43

she showed up with five pages of notes. Yeah, that's

55:45

how she is. Like just, she was,

55:48

I've never seen anyone that prepared for

55:50

a podcast before. Yeah, she's like that in

55:52

everything. This is why

55:55

she just perennially wins medals everywhere

55:57

in every competition in these

55:59

styles. Yeah, and working

56:01

alongside her and Ben for a

56:04

long time is one of the ways

56:06

I learned how to record

56:09

data and pay attention and really

56:11

absorb the things that are going on

56:13

around you in food

56:15

and just experience overall. And

56:19

anyway, side rant, but

56:22

Tanya was making German Sparkle Party

56:25

and then when she started working

56:27

with Ian, they make a Berliner

56:30

called Bay Window and I just

56:32

was really fascinated with their lacto

56:35

culture and you

56:37

have some around town with folks that are maybe

56:39

a little bit less experienced and there's lots of

56:41

weird sulfur and perm

56:44

and rubber and

56:46

all sorts of strange things. And so I

56:48

really wanted to make a beer that's in

56:50

that low alcohol range and I don't know

56:53

what my deal is with wheat, I'm realizing

56:55

as we're talking about this, but I

56:57

just really love something

56:59

that is so dry and so

57:02

attentive to acid and

57:04

still has something going on. It's

57:10

not just dry, it doesn't hurt your teeth.

57:12

Maybe this is part of when mixed culture

57:14

beer was really having a surge

57:17

in the US and I just felt like the

57:20

Berliners and Goza's were a little bit more

57:22

approachable and I really love

57:26

the whole briny, savory aspect of

57:28

Goza. I

57:33

just think it's so cool, especially when it's

57:35

well balanced with that lemony, wimey, sometimes

57:38

a little bit like tangerine passion fruit

57:40

thing that you can get from a

57:42

really nice coriander. Breakside

57:46

makes this beer called passion fruit sour and

57:48

there's a 90 barrel sour wort tank in

57:50

the brewery and there's a

57:53

heating element that keeps that

57:55

lactose strain warm and ready

57:57

to go all year. So it's really cool. really,

58:00

really easy for me to approach

58:02

any sour beer because I had this

58:05

strain at my full

58:08

disposal. So my project one year

58:10

is I wanted to make a Goza and I

58:13

really loved the Rubens Goza

58:15

at the time as like an American

58:17

interpretation where it's just like brewers gatorade,

58:19

you can just crush that all day.

58:22

It's so, just so pretty. And

58:25

I made the first batch and

58:27

we entered North American Beer Awards

58:29

and the

58:31

Rubens Goza got gold and the

58:33

Brickside Goza got silver and I

58:36

was like, oh fuck, I think I

58:38

got it did it. And

58:41

that was a really cool moment for

58:43

me in my career, you know, when

58:45

you have your shit together enough where you can like

58:47

actually do the thing you're trying to do. And

58:50

you know, not saying that

58:52

I hadn't been doing that for a long time,

58:54

but that particularly was like a cool goal for

58:56

me. But anyway, how do you build the recipe?

59:00

I a lot of it

59:02

was around figuring out the like TA

59:04

and pH of our house

59:06

lactose strain. So figuring

59:09

out different ways to have healthy

59:11

fermentations without negative sulfur

59:13

or you know, some another

59:16

thing is that like cold thp little

59:18

beast, right? Like sometimes with

59:20

those quick sours, all

59:23

sorts of weird stuff happens and

59:25

like the strain at Brickside specifically

59:27

had a, it just,

59:29

it fermented out. So like when

59:32

you ferment it

59:34

or when you kettle sour it, once the

59:36

pH and TA was

59:38

in range, there was an alcoholic

59:40

fermentation happening. So when you boil

59:43

the beer, you're boiling under 210

59:45

and boiling off a lot of the alcohol. So then

59:48

you have this like lower alcohol fermentation,

59:50

which sometimes kicks off a whole other

59:53

different kind of sulfur. So you know,

59:55

getting to know different like yeast adaptations

59:57

and things like that that we were doing. to

1:00:01

create this really healthy fermentation was probably

1:00:03

like the biggest focus. But the way

1:00:05

that we designed the recipe was, if

1:00:07

our TA and PH were gonna get as low as we

1:00:10

wanted them to be, what

1:00:12

do we do to make sure that the

1:00:14

beer is not too dry? Because

1:00:16

if you go to Leipzig, that beer is

1:00:18

like golden orange and malty

1:00:21

and sweet and

1:00:24

not necessarily the way that the American

1:00:26

interpretation is, or is

1:00:28

a little bit more lemon lime, pale yellow with

1:00:33

a wheat veil to it. And so

1:00:35

being authentic to having malt

1:00:37

character without

1:00:40

being too dry. So a little

1:00:42

mix of a couple of different types of wheats, not

1:00:47

kettle finding it. Are there specific wheats that you lean

1:00:49

on them for that? Yeah,

1:00:52

combination of flaked

1:00:55

wheat and what

1:00:57

is regular wheat called? Regular wheats? Sure,

1:01:01

malted. Malted wheat, nice, there we

1:01:03

go. Was there on malted wheat in it? I

1:01:05

don't remember. I

1:01:08

believe that we had three different kinds

1:01:10

of wheat in there in different proportions.

1:01:12

Not trying to get too weird, but

1:01:14

making sure that nothing was tasting like

1:01:17

Play-Doh-ee and Gummy-ee, but also had enough

1:01:19

wheat in there so that you

1:01:21

still had that little wheat veil. Because I think that

1:01:24

my favorite versions of the beer did have

1:01:26

that slight wheat haze to it. And

1:01:29

when it got a little bit too clear, the body

1:01:31

just didn't match the way that I wanted it

1:01:33

to be. And a big part

1:01:35

of it was Coriander selection, honestly. Getting

1:01:37

to know different Corianders and when to

1:01:39

add it. And definitely

1:01:42

learned a lot. Found some

1:01:44

really great Ukrainian Coriander. Also

1:01:47

liked Indian Coriander quite a bit. Those

1:01:49

are my two favorites. Especially, we had

1:01:51

one Indian Coriander that we liked quite a

1:01:53

bit. That was very hard to source.

1:01:57

And as you imagine, Ukrainian Coriander isn't super

1:01:59

easy to source anymore. unfortunately for a lot

1:02:01

of reasons but yeah part

1:02:04

of innovation and R&D right sustainability

1:02:07

of ingredients and sometimes you have to

1:02:09

pivot and beer styles change a little

1:02:12

bit because of availability and do

1:02:14

you remember TAPH goals for the

1:02:16

finished beer I don't remember

1:02:18

that I'm so sorry for everyone who just

1:02:20

listens to my memory and my lack of

1:02:23

memory I'm a referenceer I have to look at

1:02:25

things or else it doesn't exist and then the

1:02:27

salt components of that I mean especially with doughs

1:02:29

the big piece of it you know there's standard

1:02:31

sodium chloride you know but the intensity

1:02:33

of that you know if you're American you you know

1:02:35

and you tell someone salt in the beer you want

1:02:38

to put a shitload of salt in the beer you

1:02:40

know but some subtlety to it would probably you know

1:02:42

be more in line with the the original loud how

1:02:44

did you balance that and were there was there salt

1:02:46

that you leaned on that gave you the kind of

1:02:48

flavor you looking for you're all are gonna not believe

1:02:50

this but I think I remember something in

1:02:53

that like three barrel batch we're using like a I think it's like 125

1:02:55

grams of just sea salt and I

1:03:00

know people kind of mess around with

1:03:02

some fancier salts and we've done some

1:03:04

trials I believe previous to

1:03:06

me that Ben had done with sea

1:03:08

salt and just didn't really notice a

1:03:11

big difference on like fancier

1:03:13

necessarily or flavored salts or things like

1:03:15

that we just kind

1:03:17

of used a

1:03:19

bulk sea salt and

1:03:21

yeah obviously adds a lot of weight

1:03:23

to the beer and you know you're

1:03:25

balancing the you don't want to make

1:03:28

it like briny necessarily but I like

1:03:30

to describe it as sort of the way sea

1:03:32

breeze smells where you know it's salty but it's

1:03:34

not like gonna kick you in their face or

1:03:36

hurt your teeth or anything like that so yeah

1:03:40

not not too much in order to

1:03:42

avoid weight but enough to make it

1:03:44

noticeable sure how do you how do

1:03:46

the Germans match that and how did you mash it the

1:03:49

mash yeah we

1:03:52

did a little step

1:03:54

mash and mostly

1:03:57

because I'm stubborn and refused to use white

1:03:59

rice holes And so

1:04:01

again, I haven't, since I'm not

1:04:03

a break site anymore, I haven't seen that recipe in a little while.

1:04:05

So I haven't, I don't remember all the way, but I

1:04:07

think it was just probably three steps, 132, 144,

1:04:09

158 or something like that. And

1:04:16

just a careful beginning of water. And

1:04:19

yeah, just try to not stick

1:04:21

that mash with, I believe it's over 50% weed. Again,

1:04:25

who knows though. Yeah, and

1:04:27

then normal, the alcoholic fermentation

1:04:29

after the mash. Yep,

1:04:33

we just used 001 Chico yeast

1:04:36

and 66 Knockouts, 68

1:04:41

set the tank, leave it and chill. Did

1:04:43

do some, you know, adaptations

1:04:46

for the yeast so that they were prepared

1:04:49

to ferment in

1:04:52

a low pH environment. And

1:04:54

that was something that was super helpful for us. What do

1:04:57

you, when you say adaptations, what do you

1:04:59

mean? Condition this on a more acidic beer before

1:05:01

you pitched it? Or? Yeah, I

1:05:03

would do like take my

1:05:05

yeast pitch, some

1:05:09

dextrous solution along with some

1:05:11

sour beer and

1:05:14

put that in the tank. Often it was a bit of

1:05:17

the previous batch of

1:05:19

Goza or

1:05:21

just sterilized sour wort, put that in

1:05:23

the tank. And then, I'll answer

1:05:26

that. Yeah, I

1:05:28

mean, obviously those bottling, sour beer are

1:05:30

also now preconditioning and

1:05:32

acidifying their bottling

1:05:34

yeast for the same kind of reason. That's

1:05:37

what we got the idea from, yeah. Yeah, that

1:05:39

makes sense. Did you close the

1:05:41

tank at the end of fermentation for any

1:05:43

of the natural carbonation or is, you know,

1:05:46

there's just post fermentation carbonation? Bright

1:05:48

side. So, you know, whenever

1:05:51

someone wins a award from

1:05:53

the Deacon Brie, unless it's a lager beer, everything

1:05:57

has been carved in

1:05:59

a keg. Carved in

1:06:01

a keg. Carved in a keg. Wow. Racked

1:06:04

flat and carved in a keg with head pressure. Huh.

1:06:07

Because those tanks don't have carb stones. Okay. There's

1:06:09

only a Zwickel port on them and there's

1:06:12

no bright head. Force carved in a keg. Force carved in a

1:06:14

keg. Okay. Okay. So

1:06:17

I don't know. I think when

1:06:19

you feel like you don't have all the

1:06:21

tools, sometimes it's really frustrating, but you can

1:06:23

make world class beer as a professional brewer

1:06:25

in a lot of different ways and don't

1:06:27

limit yourself because you can carve

1:06:29

beer in a keg. It's going to be fine. Obviously,

1:06:31

like, you know, there's ways that

1:06:33

we... You win gold medals for beer carved in a keg. Yeah.

1:06:38

Apparently. And, you know, there's parts of us that,

1:06:40

you know, when I listen to Ashley talk or, you know,

1:06:43

some of my other friends that I respect a lot in

1:06:45

the beer industry, there's ways that we want to do

1:06:48

beer and there's ways that, like, those are our

1:06:50

standards and we are only going to do it

1:06:52

these ways, but sometimes you are doing your stepping

1:06:54

stones so that you can get there, whether

1:06:56

that's a financial barrier, equipment barrier, whatever it

1:06:58

is. You know, you can

1:07:00

make excellent beer if you hold high standards

1:07:02

and make sure that you are doing everything

1:07:04

in the most excellent, you know,

1:07:06

nitpicky way as you're going through it

1:07:09

with the tools that you have. There's

1:07:11

different ways to be excellent in

1:07:13

this picky and the multiplicity of

1:07:15

methods of being nitpicky. And

1:07:17

even if you do things different than Ashley, you can still be friends.

1:07:20

Yeah. Oh, she's never... We're

1:07:22

never rid of each other. We're good, good

1:07:24

friends. Well, we appreciate them giving

1:07:26

us space here. Let's zoom out. Let's talk

1:07:28

about, you know, big picture. What's next for you? What

1:07:30

do you hope over the next year or two in Wayfinder

1:07:34

to dig into and explore? You know,

1:07:36

just kind of building off the stuff that we've been

1:07:38

talking about, this is my... I'm

1:07:41

almost at one year at Wayfinder and

1:07:43

I've been, you

1:07:45

know, learning so much about what I

1:07:48

fundamentally want out of a team that

1:07:50

I'm working with and out of a

1:07:52

brand and, you know, whether that's our

1:07:54

sales team, our brewery team, whatever,

1:07:56

like, I don't know, it's just so cool to be

1:07:58

able to grow. that and like we

1:08:01

were talking about earlier whether you are

1:08:03

the most seasoned brewer with access

1:08:06

to every single class

1:08:09

or equipment or whatever it is you

1:08:11

know some some of my team is

1:08:14

Mike is pretty new he just

1:08:16

moved from Georgia to work

1:08:18

with us from Monday night he's kind of

1:08:21

washing kegs and was moving up here with

1:08:23

his wife and he is washing

1:08:26

kegs and kegging beer and you know

1:08:28

we'll write an SOP to have him

1:08:30

work with work on something and

1:08:32

he's like hey I'm you know I did this and

1:08:34

I think that there's a better way to do it

1:08:36

and it doesn't matter how green you are but like

1:08:39

I love working on a team that wants to

1:08:41

have conversations and you know it's a positive environment

1:08:43

so if you want to make a change it's

1:08:45

not like no one's cutting you

1:08:47

down it's trying really hard

1:08:49

to create an environment that we can all learn from

1:08:52

each other and you

1:08:54

know challenge I think sometimes has a

1:08:57

negative connotation but you know work and

1:08:59

grow together and I think that we're just going

1:09:01

to continue to make better and better beer because we

1:09:03

are asking all the questions and doing all the things

1:09:05

so you know like I

1:09:07

was talking about earlier making up

1:09:10

beer styles making that sparkling lager

1:09:12

that we're brewing it's

1:09:15

50-50 American mall and

1:09:19

environment pills excuse me American pills and

1:09:21

environment pills with I've never added dextrose

1:09:24

to a lager before but my goal

1:09:26

is to make this just like super

1:09:28

dry and super sparkly it might be

1:09:30

gross but I'm gonna try and then

1:09:33

it's kind of a

1:09:35

little bit of thoughts for

1:09:38

sort 30 minute 10 minute

1:09:40

I don't know I don't know what's

1:09:42

gonna happen it's gonna be a higher carbonation

1:09:44

higher carbonation as

1:09:47

high as we can get it yeah

1:09:49

mobile canning don't hate me make some

1:09:53

make some bottled versions that somebody kegs oh

1:09:55

yeah well just so you can get it

1:09:57

as high as you really want it well

1:09:59

probably Put some in glass

1:10:01

bottles to sit and wait for later. But

1:10:03

yeah, I don't know. I'm just having a

1:10:05

lot of fun Stretching

1:10:07

those limits of things that I think

1:10:10

are exciting and you know I we've

1:10:12

made a chamomile beer a rose a

1:10:14

rose beer this year and it's been

1:10:16

really fun to sort of

1:10:18

have our customer base really accept the

1:10:21

wild ways that we're messing with lager mostly

1:10:24

because they're excited about lager beer and We

1:10:27

do make a lot of things that are very true to

1:10:29

style like our German Pills and our helix

1:10:32

I feel very proud of that we're working

1:10:34

really hard to get that into the most

1:10:36

authentic version of itself and The way that we want

1:10:38

to brew it but I don't know we're

1:10:40

just having fun and I'm messing around with

1:10:43

American hops and in loggers like we talked

1:10:45

about earlier and just really trying my best

1:10:47

to Stay excited and I

1:10:49

think that you know after being an innovation for

1:10:51

so many years There's a lot of different points

1:10:54

where you feel really crippled by Need

1:10:57

to be innovative and creative and you know

1:10:59

right now I've been just feeling really

1:11:02

inspired and really creative and kind

1:11:04

of running with that while I have it And

1:11:06

you have some guardrails, you know to work in to

1:11:09

give some structure to everything also And

1:11:11

yeah some of all that are like logger ethics,

1:11:13

right? Like we're not gonna do anything gross and

1:11:15

not gonna do anything. I mean, sorry,

1:11:18

I shouldn't say gross We're not going to do

1:11:20

anything that wouldn't you know, we're gonna use

1:11:23

good quality ingredients and

1:11:26

healthy fermentation and Our

1:11:29

best decision-making processes along the way. We're just

1:11:32

trying to make really fucking good beer Well,

1:11:34

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to be a bring.com click on that

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subscribe button. I mean we've got

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great video classes with people that you've

1:12:37

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West Down and Down teaching a video

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course on that on bring west coast

1:12:43

type. Yeah, I wasn't enough current we've

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obviously. Yeah, Kevin Davey on the classes

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swivel up and coming with the Within

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as samar from thy neighbor. Several

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signs on a podcast. Absolutely brilliant

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Stan, I'm excited about Sir Bani

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Britain than those folks taking over

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this the ecliptic spot in there,

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keeping that going and signal. See

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that decommissioning and getting ready

1:13:22

to move his brand new

1:13:25

brewhouse into that seats. To. Self

1:13:27

big big time for that whole team is.

1:13:29

Very. Exciting! Anyway, lots of ways. explore

1:13:31

and follow all of the conversations and

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Now if you will learn more about

1:13:44

way, find your and the beers that

1:13:47

you're making away cider. Where do they

1:13:49

taste some work? Experience them or find

1:13:51

out more about them in the digital

1:13:53

space and in the realize. Yes,

1:13:56

you find. Ah, we find. Her.beer

1:13:58

and Son. on Instagram

1:14:00

at Wayfinder Beer. And

1:14:03

we distribute in California,

1:14:05

Oregon, Washington, and through

1:14:07

Crooked Stave in Colorado.

1:14:10

I can get your beer at my local

1:14:12

grocery store. It felt like such a treat

1:14:14

when I saw that on the shelves. Anyway,

1:14:16

thanks for talking to me about brewing. It's

1:14:18

been a real pleasure to dig into your

1:14:21

brewing mind. I forgot Arizona. Arizona too. Arizona

1:14:23

too. I didn't forget

1:14:25

Arizona, you're important. You can just also find it

1:14:27

there. Well, all right, great

1:14:29

talking with you, cheers. Thank you. This

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