Jeff Le has had a career at the highest levels of public policy and politics at the state, federal and international levels. A recognized thought leader in political advocacy and representation, his analysis and opinion-writing have been featured in The New York Times, POLITICO Magazine, USA Today, The Washington Post, FOX News, The Hill, Roll Call, Forbes, and local and regional newspapers in 30 states.

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Welcome back to another episode of create a new tomorrow. I am your host, Ari Gronich. And today I have with me, Jeff Le, and I've been looking forward to having this conversation for a long time. Jeff is a two-time tour guide in Afghanistan. He's an ultra-marathoner. He's in the political arena. And that's the thing that I really want to talk to him about. But this is a guy who's recognized as a thought leader, as in political advocacy. He's been featured on Politico magazine, New York Times, USA Today, Washington Post, I mean, Fox News, all kinds of stuff. But Jeff, I'm gonna let you tell a little bit more about yourself. And where it is that, you know, you feel like your history has met your present, and is like pushing your future forward.

Jeff Le

2:36

Thanks for having me. Ari. Flattery will get you everywhere. So, thank you for that very warm introduction. You know, when I talk about my life, I really must take time to talk about my parents, first and foremost, not just because they love each other very much, and here I am. But also, because, you know, it's their bravery and passion that allows me to be an American today. Right. So, they were Vietnamese refugees after the fall of Saigon. 46 years ago. 

3:25

Yeah, they were refugees in, you know, Thailand and the Philippines and escaped Vietnam and communism on a 32-foot raft. So, you know, when they made it to the United States in 1981, after six years, a year later, I was born. And that came with great rights, but also responsibilities. And growing up in Southern California. My parents had a gardening company. And it's important to highlight because it was my first job. My first job at eight years old was being the gardener's kid, and mowing lawns in the weekends. I learned two things about this. Number one, manual labor sucks. And education is really important, two people treat you based on what they think of you based on what you do. And so, understanding that we're only equal in concept, but maybe not in reality is an important lesson learn at a young age. I say all that because a lot of my professional and personal life was driven on this understanding. And I would break my life chapter into three chapters, and we can talk about each of them. Yeah, the first was a chapter in the international affairs arena, right? I got to work and travel and 85 countries around the world. There was so much to see and do, including, you know, what you referenced was, you know, my time in Afghanistan, you know, working in the international development, economic space, but also working in the human rights and advocacy, is base. And obviously, recent events in Afghanistan, are quite tragic and horrible. We'll talk about that. After that experience, it made me ask for mentally, what was I doing for the country back home? And so, the second chapter of my life was in politics, but you know, really with a stronger emphasis in state and local politics. I got to work for the governor of California specifically for five years. Jerry, yes, great way for Jerry Brown, Jerry Brown, the governor of California, so that the current governor of California, the previous governor of California, and which, for me was fascinating, because when Jerry Brown was governor, California, in the 70s, and early 80s, my parents arrived here. So it was so fascinating that their son could be advising the governor of California, the same governor, who was governor when they landed. So, think about that, from that, you know, the world is an interesting circle. And I was really proud of the work that I got to do in California, as you know, I mean, California, you know, covers some really interesting issues and technology and innovation.

Ari Gronich

5:53

California is crazy state.

Jeff Le

5:55

There's a lot of stuff to talk about, right? Fires, floods, you know, Silicon Valley, Hollywood, I mean, your amens, I mean, there's so much stuff that comes from there. And also what's not talked about the largest veteran community in the country, and 30 military installations that are sort of the backbone for our efforts in the Pacific, not talked about, but it's very important. Think about not just from a national security perspective, but also from a local economy perspective, having those installations there, those work I really got to work in really proud of. And now in this phase, I work in technology. And I'm really focused right now on housing, and really focused on reducing barriers for people to get to affordable safe housing, at a time where you have potentially millions of people being evicted, through no fault of their own. So, you know, for me, my goals have really been focused on trying to support empower the most marginalized at a time where the haves and have nots grow, what can we be doing to be smart and thoughtful about this, and not throw the baby with the bath wash.

Ari Gronich

7:09

Absolutely. So let's start to unpack some of this stuff a little bit. We're gonna go back, I actually I had a girlfriend. Long time ago, she had a tattoo on her butt that looked like a shipping label. It's said made in Vietnam. She had been a refugee who had escaped on a boat, like a rowboat, almost to Thailand. And so I find that interesting, because I know what it's like what it was like for her parents, who did the escaping, you know, and all of that what they faced and possibilities that they faced in order to escape a place. And where I'm going to draw the parallel in a minute is not necessarily to the Vietnam, but it's to Afghanistan, and all the refugees that are being forced, you know, to leave their home. And so, we'll draw that parallel as well. But what I want to get to at the first is, is that eight-year-old boy, who is being aware of the fact that your equality is not necessarily equal in the eyes of the people. So, I want to just kind of unpack this this one little bit for a second, let's talk about equality. And if there should even be anything called equality, and if so, what would it look like to you? So, let's just. 

Jeff Le

8:49

Yeah, it's funny. So, under the law, there is supposed to be equality, right? In society, that's certainly not necessarily the case. There is something very important which is equity. Equity is important. Yes. Equanimity too. Those two concepts are very important. And so, I believe in equality of, there's an equality of opportunity and potential. Outcomes are different. Outcomes or outcomes. But we also must acknowledge that, there are some folks that are born on third base. There are some folks that are born on first base, and there are some folks that are selling hotdogs in the stands. It's it is different. And so, where you start does affect how you play the game. Right? Like if you're playing Monopoly and you got Boardwalk and Park Place to Start, it probably affects the way you probably can maneuverer. And I can tell you that my you know, my parents coming to the United States with nothing, I can't say we had Boardwalk and Park Place. I think we were just happy to have it. Have a token on the board. Right, we're happy to be here. And very much at least in an Asian American Pacific Islander angle, particularly Vietnamese American one, there's one very much filled with gratitude, a gratitude that we get to be here and that we get to chase, the thing that you and I have talked about, which is the American dream. The American Dream, though, isn't the dream for your parents, the American Dream is the possibilities for your children. That's what that is. Because, you know, very few, you know, these refugees you cited and Afghanistan, they're here are like being resettled. They are not going to be the direct beneficiaries of the American experience and the opportunities here; their kids will be. That is the American dream. The parents will have to live with the trauma of what they lost and what they'll never get back. And I know we discussed like, oh, how lucky these Afghans are to make it. The survivor's guilt. That's real. And they're separated from their family, their friends, their loved ones, everything they've ever known. So, they're always going to be knothole. So, I think there's this notion when we talk in society about like, oh, these refugees are taking advantage of things. Oh, they're just trying to find a way to, you know, further themselves. No, it's a last resort. It is a last resort. I mean, you think about what makes you happy? It's your community. It's the people around you. It's the sense that you're living in your skin.

Ari Gronich

11:27

You know, it’s funny to me, as you're talking, I had a thought, right? How many people do I know that I grew up with? Who have never left? The place that we grew up. Quite a few. And how difficult it is for somebody, just to willingly choose to go move somewhere, even just out of city. Not just out of state but out of city. You know, how many people do I know that have lived on the same block. You know, as their parents lived, and their grandparents lived the same block the same neighbourhoods. And when I hear somebody say, you know, these people are, they're being forced. What I want to see happen, right. When I hear you say, they'll never be whole, what I want to see happen is block parties. I want us to be, you know, the 50s, again, when we welcomed the world, right, onto our blocks into block parties, and we actually understand and listen and question like, What was that experience that you went through so that people can become whole?

Jeff Le

12:52

Yeah, I mean, you're totally right. I think this first off, I mean, if you look at the founding of America, America is a nation of immigrants and refugees, by the way, seeking refuge. In the only scenario of options last, right, if you look at the history, right? We focus so much on the Mayflower. There are many other May flowers for many other generations that we never talked about. It's not as luxurious, right? But the reality is that you, we have a culture that has a connection to cultures of many. And part of our strength, if you talk about from innovation, what makes America so powerful, is that we have these viewpoints, perspective skills and abilities from all around the world that come here, the best of the best. And then they use those talents and skills to create things that change the world. That creates that new tomorrow. Right? If you look at, you know, for example, let's just talk about, let's say the vaccine, for example, one of the things that people don't talk about who worked on the science of these vaccines, right? The research and development are on the backs of immigrants, doing the lab and bench science. So, you know, America benefits from those talents. And to your point, we have to recognize, it takes a whole of society to put people in the best position to succeed. They deserve to have an at bats, whether they strike out whether they get a single, I couldn't tell you.

Ari Gronich

14:23

So, hold on a second. Let's again, I'm I like to unpack some of this. I don't agree. With the premise that all people should have an equal starting ground. Right. And say that because I'm going to have a different brain than you have different set of skills than you. I'm going to have abilities that you will never have. You will have abilities that I will never have. And I disagree with the philosophy of any possibility of starting from an even ground. Now, here's, here's to say, if I had $100 million, okay, my brain would know who I need to put that with. So that I could get things moving forward, somebody else's brain that's given $100 million is going to spend it on junk that's not going to move anybody forward or anything forward, another person is going to spend that 100 million totally different, right? They're going to actually like maybe go to classes and learn and gain a skill and do good in the world. So, money, or resources or family, like, you might have a much larger family of resources than I have, my family might have more money. So, I don't believe that there's ever going to be a time possible in which we have an equal starting point or equanimity in relationships, it have equanimity and other things.

Jeff Le

16:09

Well, I think historically, that's right. I mean, again, like we talked about my family's history in the United States is 39 years. Right. So, the starting point is different versus, you know, someone that's been here since their family has been here since 1840s. Whether we can agree that's different, and totally agree that there's different skills and abilities. I think it's the case of how do we best put people in positions, you know, to fulfil their talents and potential? I agree with you. Not everyone is gonna be a starting pitcher. Not everyone is going to be even playing that sport. I totally agree. But I do think on the services part, like the thing you talked about for society, right? Having that openness to learn to understand that benefits everybody, and that benefits a stronger country as a whole.

Ari Gronich

17:01

Yeah. But also. I guess what I want to get to is, can we agree on a solution, right? That starts us from a place of maybe not equanimity. But at least not fight or flight. Right. So having somebody not necessarily have to worry about survival skills, survival instincts, surviving in general. And that's where I believe that if we could get away from the nervous system being triggered into this fight or flight response constantly, right? Meaning, we give people a way to have shelter, have clothes, have food, have the things that are necessary to sustain a life. That starting point, at least, is a starting point that will allow people to move in a quicker fashion, right? But to your point, at eight years old, you started a job. At seven years old, I started a job. Right. Mine was paper boy, and we did lawn mowing for like five bucks a lawn. Five bucks a lawn, I think back then. It was like three bucks a lawn. Right. And so, here's the other part of that. So, I'm going to be my own devil's advocate on this. The struggle is what made you who you are, right? That having to work that early, the being forced into an a non-equal position, right. Whereas somebody who's wealthy, whose kids are wealthy, they don't have to do anything, they don't have to learn, they don't have to think they don't have to, and they'll lose anything that they're given pretty darn quickly. So, there's, the dichotomy in my in my head, and we give people an equal footing ground as far as like survival. And will that have an opposite effect of taking the struggle away that makes people really forged in strong?

Jeff Le

19:32

Yeah, so I think you know, if you think of that, you know that Maslow's hierarchy, right. So, if you reduce the existential crises, then it can allow people to forge and foster in the other ways. I think there's three factors I think about first is, you know, just personality, right. I think there's the things that are born innately like you were talking about earlier. Alright, that is a factor. The second one, I think, is really helpful is exposure to other people? So, I mean, if you think about, you know, everyone remembers their third-grade teacher, right? Like there are people that influenced your life in a unique way. Even if it doesn't seem like it's going to be changing your life, those people are really important that you can't really control for right is the quality of your teacher or the quality of, you know, important figures in your life? The third is luck. And that, I think, to the point you, I think you imply it, I think that's fair. We live in a society that tells us that if you work hard to do these things, and you're successful, and that, alternatively, if you don't work hard, you will fail, and that's on you. So, when we see people fail, we just assume they didn't work hard enough. That might not necessarily be true. So, it's like that. That's an interesting premise here on, you know, this path dependency of like this dichotomy of if you do this, you do this, if you do this, this happens.

Ari Gronich

20:56

See, I don't I don't believe that hard work means anything. Right. I've seen housekeepers who, I mean, like, go 10 hours, 12 hours a day, they work their butts off, and they're making, you know, five bucks an hour, so to speak. 10 bucks, whatever the minimum nowadays. And I see CEOs who do absolutely nothing all day, right? Who make massive amounts of money. So, I don't believe that it's equal hard work for outcome, right? It's what you create as value. It's how much value you're providing to the world. Right? So, the value you provide to the world is gonna depend on your personality, as you said, it's going to depend on your skill set your, you know, your history, but all but mostly your mindset skill set, isn't that correct? 

Jeff Le

21:57

It is and again, also, the degree of understanding systems. So, this is the other part like we were talking about, from, you know, the welcoming, I view, the welcoming is also an education on, how do you navigate? I think about my parents in the first two years, they were trying to figure out the DMV. I think everyone struggles, the DMV in some way. But imagine, you've come from this conflict, and you've been in transit. And now you're here and you have some sort of social network or you're working through, but then they're like, Oh, you have to get driver's license. Like, what is that? How does that work? So, there's also like, the quicker one can pick up the system. And as we talked about, I think really gifted creatives in this space, we'll learn the system, maximize what that looks like, and then break it. Right. I think that's where it gets really interesting. When you're starting in a position of the basics, you're not talking about breaking systems just yet, right? So, I think anything you can do to, again, expedite the ability to get people administratively in the points you talked about with this, you know, this hierarchy. That is helpful, because it will help for people's transition. to not feel like they don't belong here. Or at least you pretend you belong here.

Ari Gronich

23:22

So, belong here, an interesting phrase. So, I'm a firm believer that I should have the free ability to travel about the universe as I see fit. Right? I don't think I should have to have a passport. I don't think that there should be borders of any kind. I don't, you know, let me play. I'm gonna play this out. Like, yeah, well, your goal on here, I don't think there should be any limits. To me traveling around the globe. I look on a world view of Earth from space. And there aren't any of those, you know, barriers or lines that we've put onto the globe. Yes, you can see the Great Wall, but that still doesn't delineate the country, it only delineates one place. But the point is that this is earth, right? We all belong. If we live, if we exist, we belong on this earth. And so, stopping people from traveling, creating all these borders, what does that do psychologically? To somebody’s mind, right? I have a friend in London right now. And he had to get permission from the government to fly out of London to come to the US because of COVID right otherwise There would be a $7,000. Fine. Okay, in order to travel around the country around the globe around whatever, you had to get permission. I think that that's wrong. You've been to 85 countries. Right? You've travelled the world. You have seen, I'm sure more amazing things than 99% of all people. Because you've been to more places that, you know, most people have, like, like we said before, never lost their block, never got off their block, let alone travelled 85 countries. So, what do you think of belonging to the universe belonging to Earth, right, belonging in general? And how this whole issue can get alleviated? If we stop the nationalism thought?

Jeff Le

25:56

Yeah, yeah, um, I want to react really quickly about some insights. When you travel to different countries, I have two universal principles. And then we'll talk about the nationalism question that you raised. The first is in the travels, I got to experience and see with all the different people. Principle number one that I found is that regardless, where I went, who I met, how I met, what I saw, the people who had the least always gave the most, that's irrespective of nationality, irrespective of label, gender, you name it, I thought it was incredibly powerful. And from a humanist perspective, like just very inspiring, especially in places of the most hardship, I found people to be absolutely the most resilient, the most resistance to negativity, but also willing to sacrifice in a way that was in almost inhuman in some ways. Second principle, the more I travel, the more I miss home. And there's something about home that is important. And I struggled to understand what was it about home that it was, was it? Was it air conditioning? Was it my cereal in the morning? Was it the ease of driving on the right side of the road? What was it? And what I concluded was, it was a sense, where I didn't have to constantly translate in my head, a situation or scenario. And I think when you're what you're talking about, from a big picture perspective. When you talk about these barriers, or borders or labels, you're talking about haves and have nots. And you're talking about people that are deemed X and people that are deemed Y. And it's never done in a way that's done with rigor, right? It's just a label, right? It's based on what you talked about. It's based on nationality or passport, or it's based on a classification. It's not based on the individual, right, with rare exception, like your friend is a rare exception to get that exemption, for example, largely based by Guile in relationships. 

Ari Gronich

28:07

But he’s spoken in front of parliament in the United Nations. So, he's been a guest on this show. I mean, that will get him. Well, we'll get him anything, Jeff.

Jeff Le

28:18

Besides a cosmic karma. But to your point, though, you know, I do think the nativism part is dangerous, because it irrationally puts people into intellectually lazy buckets. That is dangerous from not just from an everyday life perspective, but from a policymaking perspective. Right. And, you know, as you know, that the government, there might be well intended actions or options. But implementation is always the question. And then there's always exceptions to the rule. That is the question. And so, it can be really hard to right size solutions for the most people possible. Understanding that is far from perfect. But fundamentally, one of the issues that I see here is the policy makers that use rhetoric to score political points, mainly campaign dollars, to then advance their own personal interest without actually doing good for the others around them. That is, and maybe that's human nature. I don't know, we can debate that. I would argue it's not because I've seen the most giving people on planet Earth. So, it's hard. It's hard to see the difference. But unfortunately, in the system, we're in Ari. It's very much driven on. There's only so much pie, and I'm going to claim the pie for my people versus some of us believe that. Actually, you can go in the kitchen and make pie and we'd all be better off. So, it's an interesting debate.

Ari Gronich

29:55

Yeah, there's plenty of pie. I always say to somebody who thinks that there's a lack of anything in the universe. Say count handful of sand grain, just a handful. Just count them. See if you can, if you can't, you probably don't have a lack in the world, right? How about counting the hairs on your head? Can you count how many hairs are on your head or pores or on your skin? Right? We don't have a lack of for anything. In fact, we have an abundance of so much. Part of what I feel is like going to a restaurant where there's a menu, that is five pages versus a one page menu, right? One causes anxiety. The other cause, you know, creates ease. I only have these choices. Yeah, this is all that I can do. Right. Whereas the universe right now, is the smorgasbord, we have this thing called the internet that allows you to have a buffet of all you can eat of your own topic, right? And so like, for me, I'm the kind of person who gets a little piece of everybody's, right. And I want a little I want to try a little bit of everybody. So, I don't get stuck in my own thoughts. 

Jeff Le

31:17

Well, also you don't get stuffed either. Right. So, you get to enjoy the taste without having to deal with that coma after so that's a smart strategy.

Ari Gronich

31:25

Right. But, that's how I like my people. You know, diverse. That's how I like my life is to have diversity to have levels. 

Jeff Le

31:41

Go outside to see different and I would also say difference. Right. Because I think one of the killers that we were talking about with nativism, is people just all go in their corners, right? And that creates groupthink. And groupthink is a killer. That's the thing that we need to be breaking. And I'm really, I really admire the way you sort of look at life in that you want to be exposed to as many things as possible. Not as little. 

Ari Gronich

32:06

Cancel Culture sucks. Let's just get it out. Like anybody who's cancelling anybody. You should be ashamed of yourself. Really, like down and dirty. You should be ashamed of yourself, cancelling people cancelling things that you have no idea about who they are, you never asked them a deep question, or found out why and you're cancelling them. I find it disgusting. It's actually like, I find that that whole concept, completely disgusting. Anybody who's an American like it's going against the Constitution, which is free speech, the idea of free speech, right? So, let's just like I'm just getting that out of my system. At the onset, right? Cancel culture sucks. So that being said, what's the solution? So, I like solutions. I'm all about solutions. These days, we've talked a lot about problems. Yeah. I want to get to some solutions with you. Okay. So, let's go to Afghanistan, for instance, and what's going on there. You had two tours. And you kind of have an insider's perspective. So, let's get perspective on that location.

Jeff Le

33:27

Yeah. I mean, obviously, Afghanistan has been in the news. What's fascinating about Afghanistan, is it's one of the most complex histories on planet Earth. I mean, just where it's located in the world is one of the busier more complex neighbourhoods, you can you just take a look around the neighbourhoods, it's busy. And what I learned from the years I was there, that one, one really important lesson, which is super helpful for both empathy, but also humility, is the longer you're in a place, the less you understand. And I think that's the case in many countries in many parts of the world.

Ari Gronich

34:04

Unpack that. Explain that.

Jeff Le

34:05

So, there's layers of complexity. And let's say, you know, you want to understand the United States. So, you stay here for a semester, or you stay here for a couple weeks. All right, you have a good handle. You stay here five years, what did you really learn? Oh, my goodness, there is way more to unpack than one thought. That's very much the case in a foreign country that is in a conflict, an active conflict zone, and you're trying to figure out, how do we promote better relations? How do we, you know, ensure more prosperity and economic development? How do we build things? And also, more importantly, how do we get rid of the bad guys? Which by the way, there's that construct of good guys bad guys, which we can talk about that. The great part about that experience two things one, I got to be outside of the Capital for lots of parts of it. And that's helpful because the country isn't just The State Capital or the nation’s capital, just like if you look at the United States right now, you know, there's Washington and there's everything else. Everything else is quite different than Washington very much as hasten Kabul and everywhere else and understanding that the local differences matter. But more importantly, the local sensitivities, the local people, local constructs are different. That helps you get a sense of what's possible. And the only way I could do anything Ari was with hiring local people who were invested in trying to promote a better

Ari Gronich

35:33

Hold on one second, I'm gonna pause you. 

Ari Gronich

35:57

Jeff, I'll be right back. I just got to do something real quick. 

Jeff Le

Yeah, of course.

Ari Gronich

36:40

Sorry about that, my ex is coming to pick up stuff for my son.

Jeff Le

36:52

Understand, understand. That's complexity.

Ari Gronich

36:56

Yes. All right. So where were we?

Jeff Le

37:01

We were talking about FSM. Yeah. I guess, to say, if you want to be successful, in a country, like that, you need to have local buy in. And you need to have local staff who are committed to building a very different country. That's not an easy sell. But when you do have folks who are interested in stronger prosperity or having closer Western alignments of the world, when they're all in, you're all in, here's the thing. They make a choice. That choice isn't just a job decision. That's a life and death decision. That's the difference Ari. So, the choose to support the Americans, like just how my parents supported the Americans. If you don't win, you lose. And that's what unfortunately, has been the case here in the last six weeks following the withdrawal of American troops from Afghanistan. And I think we can agree 20 years is a very long time. And we can agree that 20 years, what did that give us? Those are fair, valid, thoughtful, important questions that we should and absolutely need to learn from. But speaking at a human level, knowing that the vast majority of my local staff, people that made sure I was okay, made sure our troops were okay. That they're not going to be okay, now. That is crushing to me. Because they're the unlucky ones, the ones that won't make it to United States, and 46 years ago, my parents were the Afghans. And so, I feel a tremendous sense of both heartbreak, guilt, and shame, knowing that we couldn't do everything we really could do. You'll hear Ari, people say that, oh, we did the best we could. It could have been way worse, you know, right. And listen, I would love to go down the multiverse to determine the other scenarios I'd love to. But the reality is in the universe you and I live in today. There are family members of my former staff that have already been killed, or people are hiding in a hole in the ground or deciding which land border are they going to cross over? That's the questions right now. And that’s a difficult thing to accept for me. Putting aside the strategic questions, which we can talk about, of course, that's that that is well deserving, but just on a human level. It's something I haven't been able to shake. I don't sleep very well, to be honest with you. I tried to do the best I could and continue to try to support visa applications, whatever the case might be through our process, which is a 14-step process. And it's hard to know that even the greatest most powerful country in the history of the world, still can't get the stuff, right.

Ari Gronich

0:02

So, I'm gonna unpack a little bit because the humanity part, right, so let's just kind of talk about that in a way, that is more of a strategic thing. Right? So, we're in a country 20 years.

What were we doing there? And what should we have been doing there? Right? Those are the two questions that I asked like, what were you doing now? And what could we have been doing differently? Or better or whatever? Because the way I see it, and I say it on the show all the time is we made this shit up, we could do better. So, there's not a single thing on the planet that we've created as humans, that can't be improved upon or optimized more. So, I try to take out the judgment. Just put in. Okay, what are the facts? No, what did we do? And what should we have been doing to be more optimized? And then the last question on that is, people who are extremists? Are they ever going to not be extremists? And if so, what are the things that we're doing? To cause them to not be extreme?

Jeff Le

1:16

Hmm, yeah. The $64,000 question, among other things, actually, we'll call it $2 trillion, because that's how much it costs $2 trillion question. So, the first question of what were we doing there? I mean, the whole point of being there was to ensure that terrorists or extremism would not be able to attack the United States, homeland, and soil, that was the original cause and effect, right, 20th anniversary of 911 just happened, the whole idea is we were going to go to these places of safe harbour or against the bad guys, we're gonna kill all of them. And then they'll never mess with us again. That was the idea. So that's like phase one, right? Well, here's the thing. Phase two became, oh, well, okay, that's done now what? And you had two challenges. This, there was sort of a school of thought of, oh, we should build democratic institutions and shared economic values and alignments. In a place where you have no idea of understanding. That's a challenge. And then the second piece of that was, oh, by the way, we'll do this, we'll review it every year. So, it's not 20-year war, it's 21 year worse. That's how I viewed it. And guess what, when you have the handoff from one to another, it takes time to it's like Groundhog Day, right. And that's what unfortunately happened. And regardless of what the troop numbers were, or the casualties or the strategic value of x or y, it just did not change the fact that there was not a clear NorthStar of how we were going to do what we're going to do. And what was success. So, the second point, right, what can we've done better? What is success? Number one defining success, so you can meet success and move on, fundamentally did not happen. And that is shocking, because you would think the politicians would understand

Ari Gronich

3:09

So there was no end goal.

Jeff Le

3:12

Not sighted with consensus.

Ari Gronich

3:16

Okay, no analytic that we could measure that says that is success. Now it doesn't seem like military intelligence to me.

Jeff Le

3:26

No, I mean, listen, if success have superiority in the air on the ground, we're going to do that. That's not the issue. The issue is after all the bombs and toys that is the issue. Listen no one's gonna doubt American military superiority?

Ari Gronich

3:42

Oh, what I'm saying there was no target. There was no goal, you're shooting a gun at nothing.

Jeff Le

3:48

How do you shoot and this is the challenge. How do you shoot a gun at ideas? How do you shoot a gun at better governance? Right. This is a fundamental challenge that we're talking about, about the Maslow's hierarchy earlier. You know, what people really wanted. They wanted things to function. And the Afghan government though, the United States and Western Allies were supporting, we're not doing the basics. Some of that is incompetence. Some of that is massive corruption. Some of that is a lack of capacity. Some of it was lack of will. All of those things are a recipe for people saying, you know, what, maybe these Taliban people aren't so bad. So, the point you brought up very thoughtfully. Extremism. So, is it extremism or just wanting the basics? What is it and there are some folks like, you know, the horrible people that murdered our troops in the evacuation. Those folks are definitely there's nothing you can give them or sell them. Right. That's, that's a that's a very different premise. That's, unfortunately something that usually ends with a bullet. But for the vast majority Have the locals and communities even to help most of Taliban forces are probably thinking, You know what, I just want to have a place where I can raise my family, I can have money come in, and I can do the basics. And that basis would be ensuring that my kids a better life than me, kind of sounds like, you know, what my parents were thinking about when they came here. So this inability to deliver was going to be the downfall. And in 20 years, they couldn't deliver, therefore, we couldn't deliver. And without any metric for success, we were destined for failure. That's what happened. 

Ari Gronich

5:37

Okay. So, I don't know that I agree that people just want to survive and have the basics, like the Taliban, for instance. Right? If they were to do absolutely nothing right now. Not hurt anybody, not assume their control. They would probably have the basics. The thing people want control, and that control gives them a sense of safety. And that sense of safety, just like any gang on any block in South Central, or, you know, or anywhere else, Chicago doesn't matter. Any gang, any mob, any mafia, any family of people that choose a certain way of living to be a violent way of living. It's not just about survival. It's, it's about control.

Jeff Le

6:36

Well, I will premise and say this, that it's really important to distinguish the Taliban is not a monolith. So, when you say the Taliban, I mean, that's like, it's a lot of different groups, right? It's more of a federation, that might be a better way to describe them. And the point you raised about power and control. Yeah, that's at the top. That's at the top. If you're talking rank and file, it's a little different. You know, you hear stories of Taliban folks asking about, you know, what it's like in Australia. You know, it's a very interesting dynamic, right? They've been fighting for 20 years. That's all they know. And they're talking about, hey, what, you know, do you didn't even go to Australia? is a fascinating question. But to your point, yes. It gets back to who's in power? And then the accumulation of power and resources? Yes. But if we're talking the everyday person who is, you know, just trying to figure things out, I think it's a little different. But.

Ari Gronich

7:40

But so then we get to my big premise is silence is a bully's best friend. So, we got to get loud, right. So, what it sounds like, if I break it down to the smallest point, is it sounds like the bully in the in the school yard? Right? Whether the bully in the schoolyard wants control over the kids for lunch money? Or the Taliban or the Federation? One’s control over its people? Yep. So, it creates a dialogue that incites its people, right. It still is a bully. So, the question that I have is, why do we let the bullies win?

Jeff Le

8:35

We let the bullies win, because we are convinced that there's no other way or option? Right? To your point, to because if you're just looking at the numbers, the majority, it's the silent majority. Right. And these places, why don't they just overthrow them? Right. I think that's the question.

Ari Gronich

8:52

That's, really the question is, why do we allow that to happen?

Jeff Le

8:59

Well, it's similar to I think, what I see with bystanders in general, right? So, you see something horrible happen, and the people just stand around, right? Let's say there's a car accident, not always, but I'll give you an example. Two weeks ago, I was walking back from a work meeting, and someone had a really bad car accident. And so, I call 911. You know, what's crazy? Is no one else thought to do that. There are about 20 people. And these are all folks have a variety of lobbyists in Washington DC, you have to assume people have phones and this sort of stuff, right? Why is that somebody doesn't do something? And so, it's a really interesting question of like, you know, from an actor or a decision maker perspective, like what compels people to go outside of their bubble, outside of their world to something much bigger, to potentially put themselves to exposure or risk right. And the game theory of it in theory is that if everybody does it, they're in a better position. Right, and in theory, in this case, we can get help for someone who was in a bad car accident.

Ari Gronich

10:07

Yeah, you got 30 kids, or you got 30 kids in a class. One is a bully. So, 29 of them says, Hey, we're not going to be bullied by you. You can be our friend, but we're not going to be bullied by you. Defuse the situation, right?

Jeff Le

10:23

Yeah, some of that, too, is a question of, you know, who's really the boss here. And if you have conditions where the teacher is not around, maybe that is more likely to happen. So, I mean, using your schoolyard analogy.

Ari Gronich

10:37

Right, but in the schoolyard analogy, right, you got the principal and the teachers, right, that those are the bureaucracies. It's like to me, it's like Hamas, and the Palestinian government and the PLO, right. They're all different organizations, but it's like the superintendent, the district teacher, and.

Jeff Le

10:58

and the school board or the school board, and

Ari Gronich

11:01

All those people are the people who are fighting, and all these students are the people who are getting the grunt of the fighting, they're getting screwed because of these people. right. So that's where I go, like, how do we get and just in general in society. How do we get people? And you know, you’re part of the Homeland Security, I'm sure been part of some peace talks of some sort. How do we get people to stop going against their own self-interest? And to rise up and say, Hey, we could do peace, there's enough of us to make it peaceful. You don't want to be peaceful? But

Jeff Le

11:46

Yeah, the first thing I would say is, so many of us need the validation to do so. It's really interesting. Like, if someone told you, hey, Ari, I need you to do this for all of us. I think you would do it. If you sort of sat and thought about and said, you know, what, it all over interest. But in these sorts of situations where there's not a natural leader, it's very hard. And so, it gets back to like this principle of how do you become a better bystander, which then allows you to act? How do you act? And I want to think that you and I in that situation, we will look around, say, Hey, we're gonna take the bull by the horns, we're gonna do this. But it's not always the case. And in the Afghanistan context, there's long standing history, long, long, thin history of previous conflicts, battles won and lost. But usually, a history that says, hey, the writings on the wall. Let's acquiesce now. So, we can all live to fight another day. That is a long-standing history as well. So, there are some of these like cultural historical forces that are at play here. So that's maybe something beyond the school yard because I guess it's based on where the school yard is.

Ari Gronich

12:57

Right? I love having the discussion about you know, what human nature is? Because I don't think it changes between country to country or civilization to civilization as much as we think it does. I think cultural, Yeah, we have certain cultural differences on how much we've technologically grown in our civilization, right? So, US has the landmass, to create lots of web manufacturing, and, you know, things like that. So, we have a lot of technology that we've created, because our landmass has allowed that. A lot of other countries haven't built those. So, they're still living in a more tribal, you know, situation.

Jeff Le

13:45

Well, I would say, too, I mean, if you're talking about geography, right, it helps to have two oceans, you have two oceans, you're probably thinking about things differently from a security perspective, right. So that's, that's fair. That's fair.

Ari Gronich

13:57

So, we're gonna go into some other topics. But hold on one second. All right, so Asian hates, You and I talked about this a little bit. I'm gonna break it out into just hate in general, because I kind of feel like, doesn't matter if you're Irish, Jewish, Black, Latino, Asian, right. There's always somebody who's hating on somebody. And usually, it's a lot of people hating on one person or one group of people. But it doesn't really matter which group depends on where you live. It's everywhere. When I was in Greece, it was the Albanians, you know, Albanians are coming in and taking our jobs. Okay, so everybody's got their Mexicans, so to speak, the people that they consider to be entering and taking So let's talk about the hate and lack. 

Jeff Le

15:04

Yeah, I mean, if we've talked about hate broadly, this is actually a great starting point. The FBI recently released their hate crime report. Last year was the highest year of reported hate crime in 12 years. And that's among all groups. But it was interesting because there's a significant outlier with Asian Americans. So, if you're talking about, like, who's the latest to get picked on Asian Americans, but it's not to say that other groups aren't being picked on, it's not to say that Asians have never been picked on and are suddenly being noticed. Right. But it was very starkly if you if you look at data and evidence, there was a stark outlier. And that was certainly in Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders throughout the country, even in a place and people will say, well, you know, maybe that's just, you know, places that aren't as sensitive to groups. Well, in California, which is a pretty diverse place, hate crime was up over 100%, year over year. So, this is a place where 40 million people from pretty much everywhere, this is majority minority, the longest place where you have Asian Americans, the longest history of Asian Americans in the US, right? Chinese Japanese came here in the 19th century, railroads, economy, that sort of thing. So really close, long-standing histories of different groups and they had it pretty bad during that time. So, I think big picture, something was happening. It certainly didn't help that there is rhetoric that said that viruses came from certain places that probably didn't help. And, you know, I'd like to think that words don't matter. But they, they do. Because words are the thing you can't kill, like we talked about, right? You can't like point a gun to an idea. If there's an idea that says this group is the reason for your detriment, or your discomfort, and that's why you have to wear a mask. I think it's very complex. And as we just talked about there, there's always underlying things. Long standing past, right. And those fissures, with enough pressure become chasms. And this was a trend we saw across country, it certainly happened to me. It's not, you know, when acts of hate happened to me in the last 18 months, it wasn't new. It was just more blatant, right? It used to be like, Hey, your English is really good. Or, Hey, can you like with your eyes with the shape? Can you see like, do you see better on the science? Or like, Hey, do you eat dog? It's that sort of stuff, where it's like, I can laugh it off, right? A recent story I'll give you that happened to me. Two guys went up to me and we're like, hey, a Buddha. You know, can we rub your belly for good luck? And the thing is, Ari this is not the first time I've been asked, so I haven't answer

Ari Gronich

17:57

Budda is my nickname it has been since I was nine years old 

Jeff Le

18:01

Well, you and I share that.

Ari Gronich

18:04

I got these these big ear lobes.

Jeff Le

18:05

Yeah, me too. Me too. 

Ari Gronich

18:08

I've been told that there Budda ear lobes.

Jeff Le

18:11

I think they're lovely. I love your ear lobes. So, but you know, I have a response to this answer. And that is, Listen, I'm not a genie. So, if you rub my belly, you don't get any wishes. And as an Asian American, you're taught your entire life to defuse tension to blend in quickly. Because the alternative is, the communist government will kill you. So, you know, you're you come from a position of gratitude, right? You're happy to be here, you're just happy to be here. You just want to live your life. But you live in your life, having to sort of know the cost of doing business and existing here is dealing with that stuff. Right. Having people ask you about strange things from time to time, right, including what does a dog taste like? So, you know, that's something as early as age nine, age 10. 

Ari Gronich

18:59

Yeah, I had I had similar being Jewish, you know, all kinds of things. I was told that I killed I personally killed Jesus and I shouldn't be alive. Like, literally, my entire life was, you know, grew up being told, you're Jewish, you're your Jesus killer. You know, and then I started practicing Buddhism and now I'm a Jewish Buddhist that that was even worse.

Jeff Le

19:23

Well, yeah, because they don't know how to box you then.

Ari Gronich

19:25

Right? And then I started studying the Quran. I mean, I was 7,8,9 10 years old, 12 years old, and I'm studying these religions druidism, paganism and studying all this stuff. And I get labelled. So, I understand. Let's go back Asian American concentration camps, so to speak. We had those in our country tournament.

Jeff Le

19:45

Yeah. Ari, when we had internment, in the US. 

Ari Gronich

19:49

Right, we built you guys built the railway system in the early 1900s, late 1800s. That that allowed for us to build to travel the world, right? Around the country. 

Jeff Le

20:02

And Ari to your point on the internment camps during World War II. Did you see any? Did you hear of any Italians or German Americans? 

Ari Gronich

20:10

No.

Jeff Le

20:11

Yeah. So, I mean, the difference does matter.

Ari Gronich

20:16

Right. Difference absolutely matters.

Jeff Le

20:21

No good.

Ari Gronich

20:24

I'm like holding up the mic. This is how we do it

Jeff Le

20:28

Hey, you're getting your reps in.

Ari Gronich

20:36

Anyway, I'm just gonna hold this for the rest of the time because it's come apart.

Jeff Le

20:43

Yeah, I know. Sounds like you need. It's time for new mic.

Ari Gronich

20:46

So, hate in general. And, you know, but part of what I wanted to talk about with regards to Asian hate, specifically, and foreign hate specifically, is the concept of human trafficking. Okay, part of Homeland Security. So, you have a little bit more inside track down. Human trafficking. But this seems to be an issue of color, so to speak. I don't really hear too much, except for maybe Russian, Ukrainian. in whiter countries. But it also seems to be something that is perpetuated by the people who live there not necessarily the outsider, white ghost devil that is coming out and doing it. So, let's talk about that a little bit. 

Jeff Le

21:52

Sure. I mean, if you're talking about so I would say illicit trade in general. Yes, is perpetrated by local economic interests. So, let's start with that. There's a marketplace for that, right. So, whether it's heroin and opium, or in trafficking in persons, there's a market for that. And that's part of the reason why it happens. It's so just acknowledging the global trends for vice is profitable, especially when it's banned, right. So, from a contraband perspective is even more lucrative for some of these groups. So, your point, it is a global phenomenon. It is not bound by borders and that way, you're right. It's mainly global, South driven. And in, you know, communities that are not of European descent, with the exception of Eastern Europe, there's some stuff you'll see, particularly in Moldova, Ukraine, I mean, I would say more underserved parts of those parts of the country, right. And so, there are elaborate efforts of logistics that happen, because everyone's incentivized to find the best conduits for this. And that's irregardless of regime. But one of the big things is, you know, that's used as a strong ploy is they talk about it as an employment opportunity for somebody. And then employment opportunity turns into force imprisonment. That's the scenario that you hear quite a bit, especially if it's someone that's like, 16,17, 18. And they're trying to provide for their family in a situation that there are very few avenues for them.

Ari Gronich

23:37

Sorry, I'm listening, and I'm fixing at the same

Jeff Le

23:40

Yeah, no, no of course, I'm sorry, you had this look like you want to ask me questions. I'm like, Okay, I'm ready for the question.

Ari Gronich

23:45

Yes. So, let's talk about the so we have an economic reason, typically, in lower income areas that breed the idea of human trafficking. And so, who are the people who are doing the taking? Who are the people who are doing the trafficking?

Jeff Le

24:07

Sure. So, if you're talking about the, if you're talking about the Syndicate, right, so it's, I wouldn't say these are pretty elaborate sophisticated organizations. Federation's, if you will, of people who have a hierarchy, bosses, turf incentives and bonuses. And the folks who are in the taking business are your sort of rank and file. And they're incentivized because of their own survival questions. And there's a triangle to the top, like we've actually talked about in some of the themes that we discussed, right? There's a power dynamic, and people are using that as a opportunity as a survival mechanism. And it doesn't have to be even in the traffic person that we're talking about it's also the trafficking of, of people to try to make it to other countries, right? Specifically, you know, the coyote types, right, and let's say in Latin America to get people, the United States, there's economic incentives. And I would say, these are not exactly people that you know, how to say, have strong lawyers, or, you know, you can trust a handshake deal. And it's usually an exorbitant amount of money that's then leveraged. So that the person then becomes not just imprisoned physically, but in prison, and in their mind that this is sort of, there's no way out. You've already gotten as far as you go.

Ari Gronich

25:40

So the crux of the Asian hate started with the shooting in the massage parlour. Being that I'm a sports therapist, and I've been a massage therapist and all that stuff I had, I had a reaction to this. And because I know that the majority of these massage parlours are actually the home for home, for people who have been human trafficked from China from Asia, in some respects. It hit me a little harder, because I'm like, you know, these people are literally here, they're living typically inside of the places that they work. And like, you know, caught kind of beds or whatever. And, and so that kind of got my interest. Right. And so, I just want to talk about that part of what it is that people if we're you know, the citizenry, right, and we're looking for ways to help with Homeland Security with human trafficking with, you know, stopping this stuff, what are the things that people can look for?

Jeff Le

26:59

Yeah. So first, so I would say in terms of, you know, some of the Asian hate, I would say, it goes further back, I think, to your point, you know, the shootings in Atlanta. I think it really shocked so many people, because of what you talked about this realization that these were very marginalized women in situations of likely objects hopelessness. And what does that say about our society that we sort of nonchalantly. Look away?

Ari Gronich

27:35

Right. Oh, I mean, we literally were, we don't nonchalantly look away. We see a neon sign that says open. And it's a massage place. And we pretty much know that that is a happy ending place. You know, I mean, in the industry, at least, we kind of stay away from neon signs in the open. But we have the Homeland Security, we've got the government, we've got police, we've got all kinds of things. And in LA, I remember, when you go to get a massage license, there was one set of inspectors who are licensing the massage for everybody else. And then one set who was inspecting for the Asian American or Asian massage parlours that were basically turned into sex shops. And so, it's a systemized thing as well. Right?

Jeff Le

28:29

Yeah. And into your point, right. There are some things that are folks are incentivized in some ways to look at other parts of it rather than the true nature. What's your IMO? So, you know, let's talk about from a regulatory perspective. Right. And I'll talk about it from a taxation issue. I'll talk about it from a health inspection. Question, right. One thing that well, two things first, and I know it sounds really, it seems so unlikely in the world we live in. But you'd be surprised. You'd be surprised just how important it is to raise the issue with your local person, your local elected official, because it's so rare that they will get an inquiry about this. I mean, think about the inquiries that your local politician’s person gets usually about the trash, or about like a noise of a complaint or violation. But if you say something like that, the thing you're talking about with the neon sign, actually, it does stand out because that's not your normal complaint. So, to the point we talked about, it's a CSA. And it is surprising how little people are willing to do that, partly because they're scared of having to deal with more of a time suck or more paperwork that comes with that. Being a good citizen. That's, I mean, honestly, one part about it, and having a real discussion with people in your community about the subject. Again, it's something people would argue there's a million things to worry about. Right? The second thing and this is a group, I really admired a group called the Polaris Project, which works on Trafficking in Persons. They have pretty strong trafficking hotline and other services that they provide, especially for people that have recently got out of that situation. And that's really the heart issue. Right. The one issue is the root issues, the root issues are really tough. But if you're talking about the individual, the human level getting out, how do you put them in a situation where they can acclimate and integrate? Especially knowing that you're strong trauma, that might come from that exploitation?

Ari Gronich

30:37

What are the incentives that come through Homeland Security for actually policing, you know, human trafficking? I mean, getting rid of the sweatshops that are in the US getting. What is it? What are the incentives for Homeland Security to actually go and do this stuff?

Jeff Le

30:57

Well, I mean, there's first and foremost that the political incentives, the political incentives, and just being snarky about it, that the press release is really nice. They should be doing more of that they're not the big challenge, honestly. Ari, is scale. It's the question if you remove one, what happens, right? And it will most likely, because if economic incentives just become harder to get to. So, it's like, okay, you knock out one nest, and then five others happen, right? So, before you have an activity before the government says, Okay, we're gonna work on this issue is we're going to have a war against sex trafficking or war against trafficking persons issues. Fundamentally, you need to commit the resources, the time the investment, and, frankly, trust in a community. Because at the end of the day, it's the community folks who understand really the ins and outs and who's, who's a real barrier, who's a real player, because the government coming in? I mean, they don't know Adam, for me. Right? Right. And so, you do need the local buy in to have that disruption.

Ari Gronich

32:05

sounds the same as Afghanistan and needing the local.

Jeff Le

32:10

It's well, it's a human, it's a community, it's a universal community question, right? It's people coming from the outside coming in, it's gonna affect your life. Who's gonna? Who wants change to happen? How do you work together to do it? And how do you do it where everyone is safe? Right, very hard, especially if there's shadowy players involved, who have firepower and incentives to make sure you disappear. That is pretty scary. The government will say, we have other fish to fry, too. So that's the other thing, the government say, hey, we're focused on cybercrime. We're focused on, you know, insider trading, you know, things like this, which, I mean, from an economic perspective, I mean, those are pretty important things are taken from a human level. It's largely because at the end of the day, these are the most vulnerable people and they're not prioritized,

Ari Gronich

33:08

Right? So, then we'll take it away from the government's rules and responsibilities, right? We put it on the people, what can the people do? Who might be passionate about these things? What can they do specifically, to end this when they see it, to recognize it when they see it, etc?

Jeff Le

33:27

Well, I think one thing is to have open conversations about it. So, like, from what I see there's very little active discussions in the public space on this topic. I don't know what you've seen. I haven't seen much of it. And maybe it's because we're just overwhelmed.

Ari Gronich

33:43

I happen to have two friends who own two separate human trafficking non-profits.

Jeff Le

33:50

Yeah, I think that's an exception, 

Ari Gronich

33:52

I am. You know, it becomes on my mind, when I see Afghanistan and the refugees coming over, I think of human trafficking. To what they're going to be subjected to. Yeah. If they come over, and we don't say, Welcome to our neighbourhoods, let me get you a job. Let me help you. If we don't do that, what's going to happen is they're going to become traffic. Right? They're going to they're going to be exploited in some way. So, I'm looking at it like, Where can I see this as a solution that we can, you know, take on the run right now? You know, I'm tired of I'm tired of talking about problems. Really tired about talking about prompts because I don't see enough people actually doing the solving of them. They're talking a lot. They're making all kinds of plans in their heads. But there's nothing being done that's substantial, specific, targeted, that has a buy in of massive amounts of people, right? That's where I'm like, where do we go to get this? Whether it's our medical system, whether it's human trafficking, whether it's the environment, whether it's whatever it is, right? We have things that we know for a fact. Right? The chemicals that are in our food are causing cancer and killing us killing our health, yet we don't take it out of the food, we don't create the incentive, right? If the incentive was that the people needed to be healthy, that's the incentive, then everything has to happen in a way to make that happen. And otherwise, you don't get paid. Right? So, you only get paid when people get healthy in the medical system. When that caused all the fraud to disappear. Literally, the system would have to morph itself just to fit that one incentive. Same thing, I believe, with human trafficking. So, anything I believe with all these other things, there's one thing and it's the incentive that we give it.

Jeff Le

36:03

Yeah, I would say I mean, I think it's really unique that you have two friends that run organizations. I mean, what I tell folks is, you can take on the issue locally, or you can sort of raise awareness in broader groups, I find the local part more interesting, because that galvanizes people to sort of face what they've always known. The two things that I tell people they could do is number one, you either give the money, or to you donate your time, your time is way more valuable. So, if you donate time, so you know, there are people at Polaris, for example, that do you know, work on digital forensics, for example? Right, I think it's a fascinating part of how you take on that issue. And then from a political advocacy perspective, what you're talking about with incentives. One thing I've seen, that isn't necessarily done in the way of scale, is groups of people come together and advocate for budget line items in their local community to say, hey, we want to have services for this community. And by the way, the federal government will match some of that money, for example, right through department from one security. So there is there is a cost buy in part that way everyone's incentivized, but again, the policymaker doesn't hear this stuff generally. So, they need to know is on their radar, that is part of their political scoreboard. So that way, allows them wins and losses. So, you have to also create the incentives as well, because they don't have the same awareness or, you know, it's not on their radar politically, those are a couple things you wouldn't consider if you're talking about like real brass tacks, I think a couple things.

Ari Gronich

37:36

Okay. I like that line items on bills, helping co-sponsor bills putting,

Jeff Le

37:42

Well not just bills, I mean, just budget, right? I mean, every municipality has a annual budget, right? Think about it, right? The money it costs to take out your trash or the money it takes to work your parks, why not have money for your social services, that also include this portion, which by the way, will also include African refugee resettlement, which will include Haitian refugee resettlement, why not also talk about other communities in that as well, I, again, I don't think I don't think there should be a difference between like, what is good and what is bad refugees are people and, you know, moral crisis. Right.

Ari Gronich

38:16

So then here, so then here's the thing. We have these NIMBYs, and we have the YIMBYs. My Backyard are Yes. In my backyard. Yep. Let's talk about the consequences of being a NIMBY. The benefits and the consequences. So what are the benefits to being a not in my backyard kind of person,

Jeff Le

38:39

Your property value will stay up. Okay. I say that very cynically, but it's true. And this is a universal thing that you see, it could be in California, could be Florida, Texas could be everywhere. People might conceptually say, Yeah, you know, these folks have, you know, they have hardship, right. All these homeless folks, if they have a hard, you know, I want to support them, just not here. And that is a significant consequence, in my mind is part of it is protecting the value of your property or protecting the borders of your school district. I think it's pretty short sighted. But it's also this perspective of I want what's best for my local people and you care about rather than the bigger picture, which is, as a citizen of this country and a citizen, the world. We're from XY place, that means there's something that is important what I'll give you one example, when I was working in California, California has a significant homelessness crisis. As you might know,

Ari Gronich

39:43

Half a million. 

Jeff Le

39:45

That's the official count, right? Yeah. The official count official counting. That's not the real numbers. I mean, something probably much higher. But in every conversation, I'd have with organizations, people They're like, Yeah, that's a great idea. And by the way, there'd be no cost to them. So, no cost of them, you would have the land given or you'd have the structure given, you'd have services provided by service organizations, all it would be really interesting ecosystem to, again, ensure that people have their basics, right. And then people will oppose it on grounds of public safety. You'll hear that on grounds of health, you'll hear on health from time to time, you'll hear it from Oh, but that might affect, you know, how we do our gatherings are like, how do we how do we ensure there's jobs for them?

Ari Gronich

0:14

That seems like a nice question to ask how do we ensure there are jobs for them? Nothing that I hear, is there going to take our jobs, Not, what, how are we going to find jobs, they're going to take our jobs. They're going to impose their belief system, which we already know, we don't like that Muslim belief system because they're trying to kill us. So, they're trying to impose our belief, their belief system on us they want Sharia law wherever they go. So, we need to fight that. That's the that's the dialogue that I hear. I live in Florida. I don't live in California. It's a very different world since I know from California to Florida. Yeah, very different politics, very different kind of questions that people ask. It's, it's almost different. The news channels are different than.

Jeff Le

1:10

Well, Florida is also five states. I mean, if you live in Miami, and you live in Tallahassee, it might as well be Mars and Venus. Right. I mean, that's, I think that's what makes Florida really interesting. You have people from all sorts of perspectives, from all sorts of histories with a geography that's very complicated, right? You have the Gulf, and you've got the Atlantic. And it's also one of the most prosperous places, for a variety of unique factors. But also, this, I think, interesting mindset of it's fleeting, which I think is so interesting, because actually, it's far from it. I think it's got so I would argue untapped potential, would you agree, untapped potential for. 

Ari Gronich

1:56

There's a lot of untapped potential, and then there's a lot of that place is going to be underwater soon. 

Jeff Le

Well, I mean, from a climate perspective, absolutely. Especially if you're talking about the actual earth under the ground. Yes. That’s real issues. 

Ari Gronich

You know, people are very concerned. Long term of you know, that New Orleans is gonna be our beachfront property. Yeah. 

Jeff Le

Well, I think, you know, adaptation and investments and infrastructure. Some of that has started. But as you can imagine, it's woefully behind. I mean, look at I mean, you know, you see that story of horrible building collapse, right? That's, I mean, there's many more of those to come.

Ari Gronich

2:39

I'm gonna switch positions a little bit. Okay, your question? Sure. That is always on my mind. Yeah, of course. That's the question of politics and government versus private industry. And what role each should play. Okay. So, I'm in Florida, and is very much a small government state, want as little government as possible, then we look at all the things that need to happen. And that would take either government expansion or incentivizing and contracting out. Right. So where do we combine?

Jeff Le

3:29

Yeah. So first, I would say fundamentally, there needs to be a very strong understanding of what you're trying to achieve. So, let's start with that. Like even before you talk about like, which toy soldiers or you know, which chess pieces you move, what game are we playing? So, what are you trying to address fundamentally? If you're trying to address climate change, for example, let's just use that as an example. Climate change. It's got a lot of significant issues that come in the next 50 years. Is there any one being or actor or thing that's going to that solves that? Is there a silver bullet to take down that werewolf? I would argue these really transformative challenges. It is a whole society approach. The key question the government has to do, this is where the government does play is they're the convener. The government needs to be the convener because they're elected by people, right? In theory, their power source, should it be that they're directly elected by the people. And that's in theory. Okay. Now, you and I both know, that's not always the case, that sometimes they're there because of perpetuity. That's a separate issue we can talk about. But the government has to have the tent to bring people in to say, Listen, the people elected us to work on XYZ issues. We know it's impossible to solve this issue without everybody's doing their part, like we were talking about earlier about the bystander. Right. The power is having a place to start a starting point. In a place like Florida, when the leadership doesn't want to take something on, two things happen. Number one, nothing happens or two somebody takes it upon themselves to do something. And it has a variety of outcomes. Right. That's very Florida, in my mind. Right. And there are some basics like I would think, you know, even in a place like Florida, which has a band of anti-regulation. How much do they care about the Everglades? The answer is a lot.

Ari Gronich

5:40

Yes. Thank you froze.

Jeff Le

5:43

I was gonna say even you know, in Florida, right. The magic of Florida is its environment. 

Ari Gronich

6:23

Sorry about that.

Jeff Le

6:24

All good. But I guess what I was saying is in a place like Florida, one of its strongest incentives is its economic prosperity driven significantly by tourism, right. Tourism that is driven by the fact that Florida is a nice place to visit, largely based on the fact that the environments really nice.

Ari Gronich

6:46

Infinity in the mosquitoes

Jeff Le

6:48

Minus those two things, you still pick it versus the winter. In May.

Ari Gronich

6:52

A lot of people do.

Jeff Le

6:55

A lot of people do snowbirds, right? Think about the economic consequence of that migration. It's a significant one, so that you can have lower taxes. Right? The math works in a small government system, if the if you have the math come in, in alternate ways, right. But what if the environment didn't look the way it did? Then what would it be? You have to change the math; you've changed the formula. So even in a conservative governorship or conservative state legislature, they understand that the quality of their Everglades, the quality of their beach lines, is essential for their prosperity. So, it's a really interesting dynamic, right? Because, you know, people generally think, oh, deregulation as Republicans. That's not true. It's just the incentives are aligned differently. And it's in their interest do that. So that's why you will see Republicans in Florida, talking about environmental, certain environmental qualities on these issues, largely from the hook. You and I were just talking.

Ari Gronich

7:53

Yeah, the only the only, I think, issue I have with that is the water quality in Florida, is never seeming to be addressed. Yeah, drinking water or drinking water is so bad. Yeah. I actually get allergic to it. I ended up sneezing. I had to get a filter for the right at home. Yeah. Well, that's why you have to go to publix, but also there's, you know, all the anti-aging and an old age medication has been ionized basically in the water. And so, we drink parts per million, so many drugs, just out of our tap water.

Jeff Le

8:35

Yeah. And, you know, that's, again, the argument there is it's the thing you can't see. So, they don't want to take it on. Right. But what they can see is the cruise boats going to Florida, wanting to hang out in the beach and coco, right. That's what they see. So, it's, it gets back to power, convening, in what's seen as an existential crisis, not just for, you know, the economy but also for their political survival.

Ari Gronich

9:05

Okay, so the last, the last question I'm going to ask you is about buy in? Yeah. Public buy in? How do you get the public to buy in on the solutions when they're in like fight or flight survival? I've got to just take care of me. I'm too anxious, you know, like, majority of people, the people who had have the money and can afford it don't seem to spend too much time talking about it or trying to fix the issues, right? The people who it's affecting the most are the people who are in that fight or flight survival mode. How do we get buy in for them to advocate on their own best beheld behalf?

Jeff Le

9:48

You know, fundamentally, first and foremost, I if there's an issue that people care about, I always tell them two things. One, have a conversation with someone you care about the issue. And I know seems really mundane. But if you can have a meaningful conversation with someone that doesn't agree with you on everything, and it's someone you care about, and their judgment really matters to you, that's one of the hardest conversations you'll ever have. So just having a baseline, the second part is sharing why it's important to you. Because at the end of the day, people want to belong to something. We talked about the very beginning. It's about belonging. And if you're working towards something far bigger than yourself, I do believe people, if motivated, inspired, from a human level, that does drive change. That's a grassroots discussion.

Ari Gronich

10:37

So, what is it that will produce that fire inside people? Because you can look at it and see reality. Reality is that we have a mass amount of issues, a mass amount of problems, and a mass amount of people going, you did it, and I'm not going to worry about it. So, you fix what you did. Instead of saying, doesn't matter who fucking broke it? who messed it up? Doesn't matter. It's not optimized, it can be optimized. Let's go optimize it right. That's where I come from, like I say, judgment out. But we have the reality is that people see it every single day they walk by it, they look at it, and they don't do anything about it.

Jeff Le

11:26

Yeah, so I would say. So, I think you still have to anchor with people you care about, because there's strength in numbers issue, like we talked about, how do you take on the bully, still have to have the strength in numbers issue. So then you need to have

Ari Gronich

11:37

Maker with people you are in relationship with?

Jeff Le

11:41

Correct. The second thing you got to do is align the pressure points. And there's two places for that right. One is your local leader, because your local leader, again is technically endowed by the voter. And they you should be the one responsible for that are held accountable because they're in the elected position. So, once you have groups of people where you can get by and say, Hey, listen, it doesn't cost us anything to raise this issue with somebody, but it can cause that person if they don't do anything about it. That's the second thing. The third, and this is where we talk about, like, where does the private sector play? All of us? I'd like I hope all of us are working for organizations that have a civic understanding. They have responsibility in the places they serve, and operating not just because of taxes, but because it's a part of the ecosystem. You have to raise those issues there as well. I don't see that. I don't see that happening nearly as much, right. The company CSR says, this is what we care about top down, guess what, it's just checkboxes and checks. That's not actually change. But you know, what I found really interesting when I talked to Fortune companies, is I talked to them about education and alignment across their workforce, not top down. And if you did genuine surveys, like real surveys, if you did genuine one on one conversations with your managers about, hey, where do you see the company should invest its economic and political mind? I think you would get something what you're talking about much more. Especially if it's a company that understands if this is more than just good PR. Right. This is we have an influence in a community. It's in our interest to show we have influenced anyways, right?

Ari Gronich

13:21

Yeah, it's funny, we we have a company in my town. That is $17 billion company a year 50,000 employees. High tech, government contracting company. And I went and had a conversation about their health care, and how they're treating their employees, you know, what system of wellness? They have? They have none, of course. Yeah, I mean, once in a while, they have, you know, vaccine shots and a bunch of you know, health insurance questionnaires at a health fair that there's nothing that they're doing for their employees wellness, and I look at it, like the productivity that goes up the community field that goes up the loyalty, the all the things that happen in a company, when you take care of your employees, recruitment and retention, have like dumped in the last 40 years. Right? Like, companies used to be places where you could go and retire, you can't go and retire at a company these days at all. So how do we get those people to a place where they feel like they're being honoured? So those companies so that's number two. And, and I would suggest that in that number two, there needs to be a lot of discussion with CEOs and with those top-down execs, that are, you know, creating the problem that they're

Jeff Le

14:59

Well I mean, Ari, as you know, it's that stuff is strategic questions and bottom line questions and you know, who really can help push that? It's board members. And so, board members have a fiduciary responsibility, but also a governance responsibility. And certainly, that's the case when I talk to Fortune companies, I will talk to some of the boards about, hey, your CSR ESG portfolio looks like x. What does that actually mean? So that those are like the true stakeholders, right? It's the shareholder, the public to some degree, but the board members are the ones who couldn't light people's hair on fire or not. Right? That's what we want needs influence. But to your point, you can make an economic argument that if you don't invest in these things, people just leave and its way more expensive to retrain people. I think that's it fair in itself, not to mention, it diminishes culture, in a way where the consumer wants a modernize experience, whatever that looks like, hard to have a modernize experience. Is Morales garbage that affects that affects the delivery of the good or the service, right? 

Ari Gronich

16:05

Number three, you it too. We got number three was number three.

Jeff Le

16:11

Oh, the third, the third thing with bringing people together and what you're going to do? Oh, yeah, well, I was gonna say that. The third thing is you do have to name and shame. There is a naming and shaming that does have to happen. That Luckily, the media landscape is desperate for stories. And guess what, like, you can talk about the dying of the local media. But people still trust the local media, because they're going there for the weather for the traffic now their sports team did. And guess what, if you talk about an issue that you really care about, you've organized a couple people to do something that's going to get airtime, content, hard to find, especially content that's meaningful content, really tough to find on something that's compelling. It's not rocket science, Ari, to get people together, reach out to the local reporter, they probably need the story more than you do. And, you know, really facilitate something. And guess what, once that happens, PR people have to reach out, the company has to reach out, they have to respond. That's the nature of what they do. So that that elevates and amplifies the voice beyond just that, You and I talking about something that sucks?

Ari Gronich

17:24

Right, exactly. That's where, you know, my whole thing is these days is there's been a lot of talking and complaining and a lot, not a lot of collaborating. And more into how do we get to a place where we're not talking anymore, just doing the things you succeed?

Jeff Le

17:44

Yeah. I mean, you do have to talk to align to what you're trying to achieve. I think that has to be an iterative process. But there are levers,

Ari Gronich

17:52

there's, there's got to be a time where the talking and complaining has ended. And the acting and doing has begun. Yes, I agree. Yes, you can analyse and review and re structure, analyse, review, restructure, but you got to start somewhere, you got to start doing something new. And you know, for instance, like we have, I don't know how many bridges that need to be replaced. Right? So, it's got to start freakin replacing these bridges. Yeah, it's such, it's so simple. It's like some simple thing. The incentives right now are where my issue lies, because the incentives are not in doing things to repair or fix, but in creating things that will become obsolete, planned obsolescence, doing things that that stop progress from happening, making, you know, things technologically, that can come out tomorrow and not bringing them out for 10 years, right? That kind of thing. Like, I want to stop that stuff. I want people to start moving on their things, doing the things that we have available. It's just shifting that money incentive into a future incentive way.

Jeff Le

19:02

And also trying to boil it down into very actionable parts, right. If you're trying to solve a big issue, it can be overwhelming. But you know, my mother says, the best way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time. Right? It doesn't mean you just don't, you know, you don't just get your fork a knife. I mean, you really have to engage. But you have to be thoughtful in how you approach because there's only so much time, and you're fighting against these currents. But I think the things that we just talked about in terms of just I mean, those are low hanging fruit issues. And again, the more local you are, the easier it is the pressure because you're it's an everyday thing.

Ari Gronich

19:37

So if you're to leave the audience with a single thought, after all of this, what would that thought be?

Jeff Le

19:45

The thought is you can do more than you think. You can always do more than you think, and it isn't. If you want to sort of achieve important things. It certainly starts with just having the conversation like the one that you and I have been having talking to people that maybe don't see everything 100, than you get out of your comfort zone a little bit. And I know it can be a little scary. But I promise you, if we all did a better job of doing that, we'd be a much more connected stronger society. And we probably be more likely to act on things. 

Ari Gronich

20:20

Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on today. We're always trying to create a new tomorrow today and activate our vision for a better world. And Jeff, you've been a great help in giving people actionable steps and things and insights that they can do today to do that for themselves. Where can people get a hold of you?

Jeff Le

20:38

Sure. I think the best way you can find me is on Twitter at Jeffrey D Li. And I'll, we'll make sure to put that in the notes. But I'm so appreciative for the opportunity. I'm excited about all the great things that are coming today.

Ari Gronich

20:49

Thank you so much for being here.

Jeff Le

20:51

Thank you for having me.