0:01

Hey,

0:03

you're listening to

0:05

Creative Pep Talk,

0:07

a weekly podcast

0:11

companion for your

0:13

creative journey.

0:27

I'm Andy Jay. Pizza! I'm

0:30

a New York Times bestselling author and

0:32

illustrator, and I will be your guide

0:34

on this creative expedition. Let's

0:36

go! The

0:39

creative journey is

0:42

just obstacle after

0:44

obstacle. You know,

0:47

we give all of this attention

0:49

to these obstacles that

0:51

are on our path, in

0:53

front of us, stopping us

0:55

from getting what we want

0:57

in our creative lives. You

1:00

know, the haters, the critics,

1:02

the gatekeepers, the system, man,

1:04

like there's so many different

1:06

things that can stop us

1:08

from pursuing the creative self

1:10

that we want to be. But

1:13

I wonder sometimes if we give

1:15

too much emphasis on

1:17

those outer obstacles when

1:20

the biggest obstacle you

1:22

face is yourself. It

1:25

is an internal obstacle. How

1:27

do you navigate the biggest problem

1:30

that you have as a creator,

1:32

which is your own psyche? You

1:35

know, I look at the data around, and this, you know, you

1:37

can look at a bunch of different sources. I

1:39

don't know how exact this is, but it feels

1:41

pretty accurate to me. Like

1:44

80% of people feel like they

1:46

have a book within them. 15%

1:50

actually start writing that book, and only 30

1:52

out of 1,000, 3% finish that book. And

1:57

then, you know, we don't even need to get...

2:00

into the fraction that get published.

2:02

But the thing that really

2:04

bugs me is that if you

2:06

dive into the research around

2:08

the benefit of doing creative

2:11

work, like not publishing

2:13

creative work, just doing the work, it

2:16

has tremendous mental

2:18

health benefits. And to

2:20

know that 80% of people have

2:22

stuff in them that they think

2:24

needs to get out there, and

2:26

then just a fraction start and

2:28

then a tiny fraction finish. It

2:30

makes me believe that our

2:33

biggest obstacles are not on the

2:35

outside of ourselves, but inside of ourselves

2:37

and navigating and figuring out how do

2:39

you overcome the parts of you that

2:41

want to self sabotage and stop you

2:44

from doing the work is

2:46

of utmost importance.

2:49

And so if you feel like you

2:51

are having to battle yourself, and,

2:54

and you're some part of

2:56

you that doesn't want you to make the

2:58

work keeps winning. This episode is for you.

3:00

And if you stick around to the end,

3:02

I'm going to give you a

3:04

journal prompt that is a thought

3:07

exercise called a peek

3:09

behind the curtain that's going to help

3:11

you navigate through these voices and figure

3:13

out which one may be leading you

3:15

to where you need to go next.

3:38

You know, every single phase

3:40

of my creative journey, I

3:42

have to go through this

3:45

process of figuring

3:47

out which thought

3:49

or voice or idea in

3:51

my head should I pursue.

3:53

And then if I really

3:56

choose one, I have to figure out how

3:58

do I silence the other

4:00

voices long enough to make some

4:02

progress to actually do something. In

4:05

every single phase, I am

4:07

kind of blown away by how

4:09

difficult this is. Every time I

4:11

really open a new chapter every

4:14

three, five, ten years in

4:16

my creative journey, I'm stuck

4:18

again trying to get past

4:21

this inner impulse to do

4:23

nothing, to over analyze, to

4:25

be hyper vigilant,

4:27

to try to make something

4:30

perfect. I have to figure out

4:32

how do I get over that

4:34

perfectionism. It's really, really difficult. I'm

4:36

back in a zone like that

4:38

again as I'm trying

4:40

to birth new creative projects

4:42

and new creative babies. I'm

4:44

back in this place where

4:46

my psyche is

4:49

trying desperately to get

4:51

me to do nothing. I've

4:53

been thinking about these ideas.

4:56

They're very fresh to me and I've had

4:58

to go back and try to think

5:00

about when I've been in these places before

5:02

because I've been doing this professional

5:04

creative journey for something like 15

5:07

years. How did I get

5:09

past this? What did I do? What were

5:11

the things that helped unlock

5:13

some of the important work, at

5:15

least important to my own creative

5:17

progress? How did I unlock that?

5:19

The first thing that I think

5:22

I really needed to do was I

5:24

had to identify

5:27

which of these

5:29

competing impulses or

5:31

inner voices is the

5:34

real me. Which

5:37

voice am I going to hand

5:39

over the keys to and

5:41

give my power to and lose

5:44

myself in? Which of these is

5:47

the one that I will

5:49

identify as? Is it the one

5:51

that wants to play it super safe and

5:54

make sure I don't get hurt? Is it

5:56

the one that is saying I'm better than

5:58

that? I'm more than that? I've got

6:00

to reach higher than that. Is that the

6:02

one that says, no, I need to make

6:05

money. I need to gain status.

6:07

I need to make

6:09

a legacy and make a name

6:11

for myself. Like which voice is

6:13

me? Which one is

6:15

going to be who I am? And

6:20

this is not as easy as you might think.

6:24

And it reminded me of this TikTok

6:26

that I saw of this woman

6:28

who was like saying

6:31

that. She went to

6:34

therapy because she had all of these

6:36

inner voices in her head. And she's

6:38

like, oh my gosh, I've got voices

6:40

in my head. And she went to

6:42

therapy and she went through a few

6:45

sessions and after a few sessions, the

6:47

doctor diagnosed her with something absolutely

6:49

terrible that is just pure suffering.

6:52

And you know what it was?

6:55

Thoughts. She diagnosed her

6:57

with the notion that, yep, you're

7:00

definitely having thoughts like that voice

7:02

in your head, even that monologue.

7:04

Now, not everybody has a monologue.

7:06

Some people think more in pictures

7:08

than words but most people think

7:11

in words. And so you

7:13

have these thoughts and these

7:15

voices and you may think

7:17

that these are all one

7:20

in the same perspective. That every single

7:22

thought that you have is you. But

7:26

in fact, it's more complicated

7:28

than that because

7:32

all of these thoughts, they're

7:34

not on the same team.

7:37

They're not from the same perspective.

7:40

And I think it's a powerful step,

7:42

at least it has been for me to

7:44

realize that there's

7:47

a multi-headed monster within me

7:50

because there's one part of me

7:53

that really wants to just eat

7:55

a whole pizza. There's

7:57

another part of me that wants to watch.

8:00

what I eat and count my calories

8:02

and make good decisions. There's

8:04

another voice or perspective that

8:06

at times is like, hey, let's buy $3,000

8:08

worth of stuff on Etsy tonight. How

8:11

about that? You know, it's self-care. And

8:14

another voice is like, hey, that's not

8:16

self-care. Running up your credit card bill

8:18

is not how you care for yourself.

8:21

And so how do you

8:23

find which voice or which

8:25

perspective or which impulse is

8:27

your highest self? Which is the real

8:30

you that has your best interests

8:32

in mind? Which one is the

8:34

one to listen to? Because

8:36

you need to work that out because the

8:39

same voices compete when it comes to making

8:41

your creative work. Like you should make this

8:43

thing because it'll make you money. No, you

8:46

should make this thing because it'll gain respect.

8:48

You should make this thing because the

8:50

critics won't have anything to say about that.

8:52

Or you should not make anything at all

8:54

because you can't take any feedback. You just

8:56

don't think you can take that kind of

8:59

a rejection. And so you have to

9:01

identify which of these impulses has

9:04

the best interests in

9:06

mind. And as I

9:08

was thinking through this idea

9:10

of trying to listen to

9:12

these various perspectives and

9:15

make some sense of them, that kind of reminded

9:17

me of that old show, that

9:20

game show, The Dating Game. Have you ever

9:22

seen this? It's like an old TV show.

9:24

I think it's late 70s, early 80s. And

9:28

essentially, typically there's a

9:30

bachelorette and she

9:33

has three suitors. And

9:35

they're on the other side of this wall. She can't

9:37

see what they look like. She doesn't know their

9:40

name, but she can ask

9:42

them a series of questions. And

9:44

then at the end, she has

9:46

to pick suitor one, suitor two,

9:48

or suitor three. And

9:50

they had The Dating Game and then they had

9:52

The New Dating Game. But

9:55

I thought like, what would it look

9:57

like if we had a modern version

9:59

of it? this. If

10:01

we have a modern version of this,

10:03

I think the twist, the like modern

10:05

twist on reality TV is

10:08

this fun thing where we find

10:10

not just a bachelorette, but we

10:12

need to find someone with deep

10:14

psychological issues like trauma. And we

10:16

need to be able to film

10:18

that in real time and just

10:21

pick it apart and deconstruct it for

10:23

all of our viewing pleasure. Like that's

10:26

what most reality TV feels like to

10:28

me. It's like who can we

10:30

find someone who is mentally ill and

10:33

just tear them to

10:35

shreds for our viewing

10:37

pleasure. It just feels

10:39

super complicated

10:41

for me most reality TV. But that's what

10:43

I feel like would be the twist. So

10:46

instead of the dating game, what if it

10:48

was like someone with

10:50

all these attachment issues and codependency

10:52

and we'll call it this is

10:54

a working title, but we'll call

10:57

it the enmeshment game. That's kind

10:59

of psychobabble-y. So

11:01

we're going to workshop it

11:04

because I don't know if

11:06

it works that well. But

11:08

enmeshment is this psychological term

11:10

for someone who doesn't have

11:12

good relational boundaries and

11:15

they lose themselves in another person.

11:17

They're actually that's what they want

11:19

when they go date people. They

11:21

want to lose themselves in another

11:24

person. And I think

11:26

everybody has different versions of this

11:28

and we all have relational baggage

11:30

and trauma and what have you.

11:32

So no judgment. But we

11:35

have experienced either personally or

11:37

other people that when they

11:40

date somebody, they completely lose

11:43

their sense of self. They

11:45

take on that person's thoughts

11:47

and feelings and tastes and

11:49

favorite bands and preferences

11:51

and they start eating the same foods

11:54

as those people. Like that's what

11:56

it looks like to be completely enmeshed

11:58

where you lose the balance. of where

12:00

you begin and they end and you

12:03

just become them. And

12:06

so that's kind of what I think

12:08

the modern take would be, the enmeshment game instead

12:10

of the dating game. So

12:12

in this version of the dating game, instead

12:15

of sitting there and

12:17

listening to these voices and thinking like, which

12:20

one do I wanna connect with and

12:22

build with and really can add something

12:24

to my life and

12:27

take me to places that I wanna go, as

12:30

a partner, that person is gonna

12:33

sit there and think, which of

12:35

these voices do I want to

12:37

be me? Which one

12:39

do I want to hand over

12:41

the keys to and give my

12:43

power to and lose myself in

12:46

and identify as? Like

12:48

which one is going to be me? Now

12:52

all of those ideas hopefully

12:54

strike you as deeply unhealthy

12:57

because it's not good to

12:59

lose everything about who you

13:01

are and become whoever it is

13:03

you date. Of course, I feel like

13:05

every person listening to this knows

13:08

that that is a bad idea because

13:12

you are not any of

13:14

those voices, you are not

13:16

any of those people that

13:18

you're listening to. And I

13:20

think the same is true

13:22

for the voices or impulses

13:24

or sides of your psyche.

13:26

You're not the person that's

13:29

the voice that's calling you to something more.

13:31

You're not the person that says

13:33

you need to create an image

13:35

for yourself. You're not the person

13:38

that says, no, you suck. Don't

13:40

try anything. If you do, they're

13:42

all gonna laugh at you. You're

13:44

not any of those voices. You're

13:47

the one listening to and navigating

13:49

your way through them. Or

13:52

at least that is where I

13:55

have landed today. I

13:57

don't think anybody can be shamed.

14:00

about which one is you,

14:03

which one isn't you, are you

14:05

the observer, are is one of

14:07

these voices you? I don't know

14:09

but for the purposes of this

14:11

episode and for sorting through it,

14:13

I found that stance

14:16

to be super helpful as

14:19

a means of organizing all

14:21

of these different impulses and

14:23

figuring out which of these do I

14:26

need to partner with today and

14:28

that partnering idea is a much

14:31

healthier place for me. When I

14:33

give my whole identity over to

14:35

this person, it feels a lot

14:38

like that unhealthy enmeshment that can

14:40

happen if we're not careful in

14:42

the way that we attach ourselves

14:45

to other people and so here's

14:47

what we're gonna do we're gonna talk

14:49

a little bit about we're gonna dive

14:51

a little bit deeper into what these

14:54

voices might be and

14:56

how they work and how to

14:58

identify them and then how to

15:00

figure out which one might be

15:02

helpful in developing

15:04

your next creative project

15:07

or leading you through

15:09

the creative project you find yourself stuck

15:11

in today. Okay

15:33

so the second thing that I'm

15:35

trying to do as I navigate

15:39

these divisive difficult

15:43

obstacles within myself

15:46

is to attempt to

15:48

take a non-dual approach

15:51

and I'll explain what I mean

15:53

by that. I think non-dual attitude

15:56

is one of the top

15:58

three core values of this podcast,

16:00

in fact, just to take a tiny little tangent

16:03

off to the side for a minute, if you'll

16:05

allow it, because I

16:07

haven't done that yet. Just

16:10

a quick little tangent. I've

16:12

been thinking a lot about this show and thinking

16:14

about how does the

16:17

podcast work within the creative

16:19

ecosystem of what I do. I

16:21

do a lot of different things. I make picture books. I

16:24

illustrate for clients. I do talks. I do

16:26

classes. I do all these different things. I

16:29

thought a lot about how do I make the podcast the

16:35

most useful version of itself.

16:37

I get lost, not lost.

16:39

I think a lot about the power

16:42

of the medium because I

16:45

have a strong feeling that TV and

16:48

movies have a

16:50

lot in common and the only

16:52

difference between them is in budget because a

16:55

lot of money gets spent on TV these

16:57

days. Sometimes great

17:00

movies have really low budgets. It's

17:02

not that simple. It's also about

17:04

the viewing habits. When you sit

17:07

down to watch a movie versus

17:09

watching a TV show, you're in

17:11

a very different state desiring a

17:14

different thing. It's not unlike why

17:16

you might open Twitter versus

17:18

why you might open Instagram. They

17:21

are totally different mediums, even

17:23

if they share some things

17:26

in common. I have

17:28

that same kind of impulse as I

17:30

think about podcast versus an audio book

17:33

versus a blog versus a newsletter

17:35

versus a class. All

17:37

these different things serve very

17:39

different purposes. Then even within

17:41

the medium of podcasting,

17:44

there is all these different types.

17:46

You have ones that are seasonal

17:48

where it's like, here's 12 episodes at

17:50

a time and they have a start

17:52

and an end and a break and

17:55

everything in between. Then they have the

17:57

weekly show, which is kind of what

17:59

we've done. for the past nine years.

18:01

And I've thought a lot about what is

18:03

the purpose of having something every single week.

18:06

And we always try to give

18:08

ideas on this show that you

18:11

can put to action, that you

18:13

can do something with. And I

18:15

don't think that'll change, but I

18:18

do think that ultimately what those

18:20

actions are doing and what those

18:22

stories are doing are hopefully helping

18:25

you internalize helpful values, creative values,

18:27

that are not easy or not

18:29

always natural to creative

18:31

people. And

18:33

all of the values that I

18:36

want to bake into this show,

18:39

my intention is to only

18:42

bake in values that

18:46

have good information

18:48

behind them, that have research

18:52

and studies, not by me

18:54

doing research on the internet, but connected

18:56

to, you know, every time I

18:58

do an episode, I try to dive into

19:00

the deepest layer and

19:02

figure out what is behind this

19:05

thing and what do

19:07

the experts in neuroscience

19:10

and psychology have to

19:12

say about this idea at

19:15

the deepest layer. And

19:17

then I try to match that with

19:20

my own experience. And the perfect Venn

19:22

diagram is where those two things line

19:24

up or maybe three things, because it'll

19:26

be the research, it'll be my own

19:28

experience, and then it would also be

19:30

examples or case studies that I can

19:32

find out in culture of

19:34

creators who have done things that are

19:36

aspirational to me and to others. And

19:39

so hopefully every episode is in

19:42

the cross section of those three things. And

19:45

I don't always do a perfect job, but

19:47

that's my intention. And so as

19:50

I have been revealing like, what do

19:52

I want this show to be? I

19:55

want it to be stories and

19:57

practices and actions that you can

19:59

take. that help you internalize

20:01

and help me internalize and remind me

20:03

as well of things that are fruitful

20:07

values of creativity. And

20:10

I had a handful, but one of

20:13

the top ones is

20:15

non-dual approach. And

20:18

what I mean by non-dual approach is

20:21

non-binary in the sense

20:23

of our operating

20:25

system, I think especially like

20:27

our more animal nature, our

20:29

lower kind of intelligence,

20:31

wants a yes or a

20:33

no. It wants either the right

20:36

thing to do is to make it up

20:38

as you go or the right thing to do

20:40

is to start with the

20:42

end of mind and work backwards.

20:44

Like those are two opposite things.

20:46

But I strongly

20:50

agree with this quote from Niels

20:52

Bohr who was a physicist

20:56

and he said that often

20:58

the opposite of

21:00

a profound truth, like a

21:02

deep truth, is another profound

21:05

truth because that is

21:07

the tricky nature

21:09

of the universe. And that might

21:11

sound kind of trippy, but actually

21:13

it's just kind of like

21:16

seasons of the year. Early

21:18

on in the show, I did a episode

21:21

called Seasons and I didn't

21:24

even realize that at the time, but this was

21:26

a topic, this is a topic that has been

21:28

explored by tons and tons of creators over time.

21:30

When I did that episode, I had a lot of

21:32

people reach out and say, hey, you should check out

21:34

this or hey, you should check out that. Todd

21:37

Henry has a podcast episode about this

21:39

on his show Accidental Creative. Austin

21:42

Kleon has done a lot of work around

21:45

seasons. Sister

21:48

Karida Kent has done a lot of

21:50

work on seasons. This is not a

21:52

new idea, but essentially the idea

21:54

of seasons is that there

21:57

are different modes that you know.

22:00

need to be in at

22:02

different points in your creative

22:04

journey and in your life. So

22:07

there is a time and place to

22:09

be planting seeds where what you need

22:11

to be all about is

22:13

planting seeds. And then there are times in

22:15

your life where you need to be shining

22:18

on the things that are already planted. You

22:20

don't need to plant anything. You just need

22:22

to be shining your light on what's already

22:25

in front of you. And then there

22:27

are other times where you need to

22:29

quit shining your light, quit growing, quit

22:31

making more. You just need to harvest

22:33

what's there. And then you need times

22:35

where you're not doing anything at all.

22:37

Okay? So this is an

22:39

idea that's been explored in a bunch of different

22:41

ways, both in the creative spheres, but then also

22:43

just through time. Like this as an analogy and

22:46

as a metaphor is something that goes

22:48

through cultures. And so I don't place any

22:50

ownership on it. It's

22:53

a powerful example of

22:55

what I mean by a

22:57

non-dual approach. It's an

23:00

approach that says the creative journey is

23:02

a process that has different sections. It's

23:04

one of the things that got me

23:06

really obsessed with the hero's journey was

23:09

when I realized I didn't have to

23:11

just be either not living my creative

23:13

destiny or living my creative destiny and

23:16

reaching my creative goals. Instead, that there

23:18

are lots of phases in between that

23:21

and where you start and where you end.

23:24

And then even after you live your goals, you

23:26

have a whole other phases begin. And

23:28

so it's a really powerful tool

23:31

because when you start having a

23:33

dual approach where it's either this

23:35

or that, you get

23:37

into this space where it's kind of

23:40

like children arguing about which season is

23:42

the most important, which is

23:44

the best season. We

23:48

all have our flavors.

23:51

If you're a white woman

23:53

Instagram like Bo Burnham's person,

23:55

you're probably all about autumn

23:57

and PSL season. you

24:00

know, if you are a Spice Girl, you're a pumpkin spice.

24:02

Like that's who you are.

24:04

We all have our flavors. I'm a summer

24:06

guy, okay? That's what my birthday is. I

24:08

like it when it's hot, I don't like

24:11

the cold. But I have a more evolved

24:13

take, a more grown up take than just

24:15

summer's the best. I believe

24:17

that we need all of the different

24:19

seasons. There's a time and place for

24:21

totally different energies. And the same is

24:24

true in your creative practice. And

24:26

the same is true in your own psyche.

24:29

And so taking a non-dual approach,

24:31

what this looks like is understanding

24:34

that each of those three voices,

24:36

or however many voices are sides

24:38

to yourself that are behind the curtain, serve

24:41

a purpose and have a space and

24:43

time. Now, if

24:45

you've listened to the show for quite a

24:47

while, you probably know that I am a pretty

24:50

big fan of Ryan Holiday. He is

24:52

a guy that as a writer, he

24:55

started in the marketing world and then

24:57

moved kind of into the philosophical space

25:00

of like pop philosophy and applied

25:02

stoicism. And he's just an interesting

25:04

character. I think he does a

25:06

good job of being really articulate

25:08

and interesting and nuanced, which is

25:10

not something that most kind of

25:12

internet personalities are able to pull

25:15

off. And so, yeah, I

25:17

appreciate his work. And

25:21

I bring him up because he has

25:23

a book called Ego is the Enemy.

25:25

Ego is the Enemy. Now, I just

25:28

wanna say that I am assuming

25:31

that Ryan Holiday agrees and knows

25:33

that there is a reason why

25:35

we have an ego. You know,

25:38

there's a lot of talk in

25:40

the culture about ego death. And

25:43

I think there's a really good

25:45

argument for why we need ego

25:48

death in Western society right now.

25:50

I think there's an over-representation, with

25:52

ego as Americans and as Westerners.

26:00

And that ego's enemy may in

26:03

fact be a great stance in

26:05

a particular way where we really

26:07

need to let go of the

26:09

ego. In fact in my own

26:12

journey, in my own seasons of

26:14

creativity, I feel like

26:16

I have exited the hero's

26:18

journey, a thing that we've talked about a lot

26:20

on this show, the creative

26:23

hero's journey and entered a

26:25

different phase of my creative

26:28

life. And

26:30

that shift and

26:32

also not vilifying the hero

26:35

side or the hero phase but

26:38

embracing that that was an acceptable

26:40

and powerful moment to have and

26:42

then entering into a new thing

26:44

is a really useful

26:47

tool. Now for

26:52

a long time, the hero's

26:54

journey, Joseph Campbell's hero's journey

26:56

and seeing my creative

26:58

practice through that lens was very

27:01

powerful. But over

27:03

time I got introduced to

27:05

concepts from people like Steven

27:07

Pressfield. In his book, The

27:10

Artist Journey, he talks about

27:12

how there are distinct chapters

27:14

where you have the hero's journey. A

27:17

lot of creators have to do the

27:19

hero's journey where they have to figure

27:21

out what is your gift, what is

27:23

your thing and you're out there searching

27:25

and looking and finding. But then once

27:27

you find your thing, you enter into

27:29

what he calls the artist's journey

27:31

and the artist's journey is

27:34

not going and finding out something

27:36

totally different about yourself but rather

27:38

a more cyclical thing where you

27:40

are showing up and doing the

27:43

same thing over and over. You're

27:45

showing up and you're writing songs over

27:47

and over or poems or illustrations or

27:49

picture books and

27:52

it kind of mirrors the

27:54

tale Beowulf. I heard

27:57

someone interpret this tale through the

27:59

end. this non-dual lens where Beowulf

28:01

starts as this hero who is

28:03

this monster slayer and he slays

28:05

a monster and they crown him

28:08

king and now it's time for

28:10

him to be king. But

28:12

instead of learning how to be

28:14

in that season of life, learning

28:16

how to build a kingdom and

28:18

what it looks like to be

28:20

at home, he

28:23

can't shift archetypes.

28:25

He can't shift his identity. He

28:27

can't move on from the ego

28:30

to a different part of himself

28:32

and he gets distracted and he

28:34

gets called out and

28:37

searches out and finds

28:39

another monster to slay because he

28:41

can't change his habits and he

28:44

can't change his priorities and he

28:46

ends up getting killed by

28:48

this beast instead of learning

28:51

how to be king and learning what this

28:53

new phase looks like. And

28:55

I feel like when I talk

28:58

to creators about

29:00

this concept that it's really useful

29:02

because they can recognize that that

29:05

groove that they got into that

29:07

was so useful to the prior

29:09

season of their creative journey has

29:11

now become a rut, has now

29:13

become a not a habit

29:15

but an addiction and there needs

29:17

to be a shift and

29:20

I think the shift has to take place

29:22

where you don't demonize the prior season

29:24

but instead embrace that it

29:27

was there for a time,

29:29

for a purpose and

29:32

and that that was a good

29:34

thing but now it's time to

29:36

do something different. And

29:38

Rob Bell who's like a spiritual teacher

29:40

also has an episode on seasons on

29:42

his podcast and he

29:44

talks about like there's a

29:46

reason for a season and

29:49

I think that that mindset is

29:52

really useful and so

29:54

instead of maybe thinking of ego

29:56

as the enemy it can

29:58

be useful to say there's a reason for it. there's a time

30:00

and a place to develop a

30:03

healthy ego. The hero's journey is

30:05

really about leaving home, leaving your

30:07

parents home, finding your own independence,

30:10

finding your own self, identifying as

30:12

the I, identifying as

30:14

this is me and I need to do

30:16

what's good for me and take care of

30:18

me. But the

30:20

next phase might look like realizing that

30:24

that nucleus, that ego is really

30:26

important for you to self preserve

30:28

so that you're alive long enough,

30:30

not for your own benefit, but

30:32

for the body, that you are your

30:35

own cell, but

30:37

you're also part of a greater whole.

30:39

And the next phase might look like,

30:42

how do I tap into the part

30:44

of me that doesn't want to just

30:46

live for myself? And I

30:48

think that's what the ego is the enemy thing

30:50

is getting at. Okay, so we

30:52

dive, we dove really

30:54

deep into this

30:57

notion of non dualism. I

31:00

hope it was a fun ride. I

31:02

hope it didn't get too scary and

31:04

weird, but it's helpful for me to

31:06

kind of set the table that way

31:08

because it's easier to over identify with

31:14

one particular impulse and

31:17

your deeper self is gonna reject

31:19

that because it

31:22

knows that these different perspectives within

31:24

yourself have a purpose and

31:26

have a reason to exist.

31:30

And so when you go try to

31:32

lose weight or get healthier,

31:36

whatever it is you're trying to do and

31:38

that next voice shows up and is

31:40

like, hey, what about having fun? What

31:42

about connecting with people? What about like

31:45

sitting around the table, breaking bread, like

31:47

all that kind of stuff. Like you're

31:49

really gonna eliminate bread? Like breaking bread

31:51

is about being human. You're

31:54

gonna get these competing voices. And I think

31:56

if you have a dual approach and you

31:58

try to convince yourself like no

32:00

you're wrong that's the devil get behind

32:03

me like you are there's a part

32:05

of you that knows that they have

32:07

a point and that's the part of

32:09

you that ends up being really confused

32:12

because you're like they all have a

32:14

point I don't know which one is

32:16

right and to say well none

32:19

of them is right and all of

32:21

them are right at different times helps

32:23

you prioritize which is the one that

32:25

you need to partner with right now

32:28

and so in the next piece of

32:30

this we're going to talk about how

32:32

to do just that okay

32:39

it's time for our creative

32:41

call to adventure that

32:44

is the way we like to

32:46

in these episodes where we take

32:48

these bigger abstract ideas and we

32:50

find ways to take action on

32:52

them either big or small and

32:55

this one is a peek

32:57

behind the curtain this is a

33:00

journal prompt you can just do it on a scrap

33:02

piece of paper or in your

33:04

actual journal if you're journaling type

33:08

and here's the three pieces

33:10

the first thing is brain

33:12

dump brain buckets and then

33:14

brain balance and so

33:16

brain dump the first thing you

33:19

do is when it comes to

33:21

this creative endeavor that you're

33:23

trying to pursue maybe you're trying to write a

33:25

book or you're trying to create a new podcast

33:27

or you're trying to get into

33:29

YouTube or whatever it is you're

33:31

trying to start a shop or write an album

33:33

whatever it is write out

33:36

bullet point just brain

33:38

dump all of

33:40

the competing perspectives you

33:43

know the voice that says you

33:45

really need to quit making music

33:49

because everything's been done

33:51

or you're past your best or whatever it

33:53

is write out all of those maybe

33:55

there's a voice in your head that's saying you

33:58

need to completely

34:00

pull a okay

34:02

computer radio head moment and just

34:04

reinvent the wheel and not repeat

34:07

yourself and start

34:09

playing an instrument that you don't even know, whatever

34:11

it is. And

34:14

then there's voices in your head that are saying, what

34:18

you need to do is be true to yourself

34:20

and be true to your roots and go back

34:22

to who you used to be and who your

34:24

heroes were and you need to get out of

34:27

this digital age and the AI and all that

34:29

stuff, like all of the voices,

34:31

just list them all out. Every single thing that

34:33

you can think, even if you

34:35

don't know like, oh, they are all, they're

34:37

definitely competing, just as much nuance as you

34:39

can get, just bullet point every single one

34:41

that you can. Okay,

34:44

when you have that brain dump, the

34:46

second phase is brain buckets. I

34:52

don't think there's ever going to

34:54

be a fully accurate

34:58

depiction of what makes up the

35:01

psyche, what makes up your consciousness,

35:03

who you are, because

35:05

I think there is a level

35:07

of abstraction that we're

35:10

never going to get like, these are the

35:12

pieces of this thing. It's just a little

35:14

bit too fuzzy. But

35:16

for the purposes of this process,

35:21

the framework that's been helpful to me

35:23

is the id, the ego and the

35:25

superego. And if my knowledge

35:28

serves me, I believe this comes

35:30

from Sigmund Freud. And

35:32

those are the three buckets that I'm going to

35:34

suggest you use. And for

35:36

the purposes of this episode, we'll

35:39

say the id is

35:41

kind of your animal self. It

35:44

is the part of you that

35:46

is instinctual and pleasure

35:49

driven and anti pain driven. It

35:53

is the part of you that wants to eat Doritos

35:56

and watch crazy things on

35:58

the internet and whatever, right?

36:00

Like that's the id. The

36:03

ego is the part of

36:05

you that is the I, it is

36:07

the image, it is the

36:09

part of you that wants to look

36:11

good on Instagram. And it's

36:13

the part of you that wants to show

36:16

up at your high school reunion and be

36:18

like, look at me like that's the ego.

36:22

It's the part of you that has

36:24

that says I need to take care

36:26

of myself, I need to be my

36:28

own person. That is the ego. And

36:30

then you have the superego. And

36:32

the superego is maybe less known,

36:34

or at least it was to me. And

36:36

the superego isn't necessarily the thing that criticizes

36:39

you in terms of saying

36:41

you're bad. But it's the voice in

36:43

you that says you're better than that.

36:46

It's the part of you that tells you

36:48

that you have morals and ethics and

36:50

that you need to reach your true

36:52

potential. Now, part of the reason I

36:54

wanted to do this episode is I

36:56

wanted to do it as a little

36:58

bit of a confession. Because

37:01

I think that for

37:03

the nine years that I've been doing

37:05

this show, that I have been primarily

37:09

identifying as the

37:11

superego, and probably

37:13

really represent the superego in your

37:15

life if you're a long time

37:18

listener, not saying that I'm the

37:20

voice of your superego, but just

37:22

that your relationship to the

37:24

creative pep talk is probably you leaning

37:26

into your superego. It's

37:28

a part of you that says

37:30

you have a potential that you're

37:33

not reaching. And

37:35

I wanted to do this episode because

37:37

I wanted to say that like the

37:39

id, like the ego, the superego

37:42

has a place and has

37:44

a purpose. I actually think all

37:46

three of these things are

37:49

good things. And you need

37:51

them at all times. And to lean

37:53

into some of them at certain

37:56

times more than others. And

37:58

so when you're trying to

38:00

boost the side of you

38:02

that is your super ego, you probably

38:04

are in the place where you

38:07

turn to this podcast. And

38:09

the only confession or the only thing that

38:11

I want to add nuance to is to

38:13

just say that I personally

38:16

think that I have at times

38:18

in my creative journey over

38:21

identified with the super ego and

38:23

I'm entering a stage in

38:25

my life where I want to turn

38:28

that voice down ever

38:31

so slightly. I want

38:33

to let go of some of

38:35

my creative dreams because they're getting

38:38

in the way of me showing

38:42

up and being grateful for

38:44

where I am and being

38:46

present in the lives of the people

38:49

that I care about the most.

38:52

And my super ego is

38:55

a side of myself that

38:57

says you should push for more, you

38:59

should move to a new place where

39:01

you can level up, you know all

39:03

those things. Now like I said, I

39:06

think in balance that's a really powerful

39:08

thing. But any one of these,

39:11

if you choose to become

39:13

them, identify as them, leave

39:15

yourself in and give

39:17

the power to them that

39:20

it will be like the enmeshment game. And

39:23

so I'm trying to go into a

39:25

season where I turn

39:27

down that voice ever so

39:29

slightly and the way

39:31

that I've come to that decision is

39:34

this practice of listing out these things

39:36

and then organizing them into those buckets.

39:39

You know the id, the things that fall

39:41

in that are the things that bring you pleasure or

39:44

the things that avoid pain. You

39:46

know the voices that are critical, trying to

39:48

avoid the haters, all that kind of thing,

39:51

put that in the id bucket. The

39:54

ego will put things in that

39:56

bucket that are related to status

39:58

and trust. You

40:00

know there is a time and

40:03

place for the hero's journey. There

40:05

was a time and place where

40:07

I needed to get the certificate

40:09

I needed to get the award.

40:11

I needed to get the X

40:13

turtle markers of identity to help

40:15

people in my culture and and

40:17

people that could collaborate with me

40:19

to know that they could trust

40:21

me. And so there was a

40:23

season of time where I really

40:25

needed to do that. And

40:27

so the things that go

40:29

around: status and and identity

40:31

and telling people who you

40:33

are, an image and portfolio

40:35

and Instagram and make and

40:37

everything loved Rise and on

40:39

point like bats. Ego put

40:42

the stuff they're super. Ego

40:44

is probably what you would

40:46

identify most as a higher

40:48

mind, a bad herself, the

40:50

highest cells. And I think

40:52

that's a little bit dangerous

40:54

because when you think about

40:56

it as your. Higher self you

40:58

can identify as that saying. you could

41:00

think that's the person that I want

41:02

to be. I partially

41:05

was inspired with this episode by

41:07

a therapist named Hillary Mcbride to

41:09

on a pretty big fan of.

41:12

And see has this line that

41:14

I thought was just so brilliant

41:16

and she said that. I.

41:19

Type of spiritual abuse that

41:22

happens of commons in. Western

41:25

Society as where you go

41:27

to your spiritual home. whether

41:30

it's a synagogue, our church,

41:32

or and you get hot.

41:35

That your inner critic. Is

41:38

the voice of God. And

41:40

that they they conflate in May

41:43

and mess with that voice and

41:45

say that's the voice I'm going

41:47

to be and listen to and

41:49

Bow Tail. And it's a

41:52

voice that tells you you're never enough.

41:55

You're. you're you're on your far

41:57

off from your potential that you

41:59

need it reject where you're at

42:01

now so that you can work

42:03

for who you're going to be

42:05

later. And I think

42:08

that for me personally, that's

42:10

a voice that has been

42:12

useful, but has run

42:15

a little bit too rampant. But the

42:17

things that you put in the super

42:19

ego bucket or the things that are

42:22

saying, this is living my potential. This

42:24

is, it might be, I think a

42:26

lot of creative impulses like the, when,

42:29

when you hear an artist pontificating about

42:31

their art and getting romantic about it

42:33

and you're falling in love with it.

42:36

Again, all good stuff. But

42:38

I think that goes in the super

42:40

ego. If you think about

42:42

it like Rotten Tomatoes, like Rotten Tomatoes,

42:45

there's the audience score and the critic

42:47

score. The critic score is really that

42:49

super ego. If you find yourself over

42:52

identifying with or, or the voices that

42:54

you've listed out, the ones that are

42:56

like really trying to please the critics,

42:58

that might be your super ego that

43:00

says, you know, it needs to be

43:02

this high level, this highest mind, this

43:05

highest self and put it in

43:07

there. The third piece to this CTA is

43:09

the brain balance. It's for

43:11

you to look at these

43:13

things and to not unidentify,

43:16

not to throw them all out,

43:20

but rather to say which of these

43:23

do I need more of right now?

43:26

Which of these could help

43:28

me establish the next thing

43:30

that I need to be

43:33

about and do in my

43:36

creative journey today? And

43:38

here's how I am thinking

43:40

about this. If

43:42

we go back to the enmeshment game, you know,

43:45

I said it's probably not, it's kind of psychobabble-y.

43:47

It's not really the best word. It's

43:49

not really accessible. It's not gonna, you

43:52

know, light Gen Z on fire and really

43:55

take off if we name the show enmeshment

43:57

game. We got to find a different name.

44:00

for the same game. And

44:02

that's fine because all over the world

44:04

there are different names for the

44:06

same game. Like in one

44:09

place this card game might be called

44:11

War, and then in another region it's

44:13

called Battle, and in another

44:16

region it's called something totally different. Like

44:18

that happens all the time. In fact,

44:20

I think this whole brain

44:23

game and this enmeshment

44:26

game is already

44:28

known by a bunch of

44:30

different names. In

44:32

culture, we have all

44:35

of these people playing these

44:38

games all the time and

44:40

calling them totally different names

44:42

depending on where you grew

44:45

up and what

44:47

you're about and where you

44:50

find yourself. So

44:53

depending on where you

44:55

grew up, they might call the

44:58

enmeshment game business. And

45:00

you lose yourself into the

45:03

ego of making something out

45:05

of your life and identifying

45:07

as success. Or

45:09

maybe you grew up on the

45:11

west side of the country and

45:14

the enmeshment game is called Burning

45:16

Man for you and you lose

45:19

yourself into the animal nature that

45:21

is the id. Or

45:23

maybe you grew up like me in the midwest

45:25

in the enmeshment game for some

45:27

of us is called Church, where

45:30

you lose yourself into the super

45:32

ego and the highest self. But

45:34

more often than not, the

45:37

options on the table are

45:39

ones that over identify

45:41

in a particular flavor.

45:44

And maybe that's not completely

45:47

a bad thing. Maybe

45:49

the dating game

45:52

and the

45:54

enmeshment game doesn't become more healthy

45:56

by balancing all these things all

45:58

at the same time. but

46:00

maybe it's what do we need right

46:03

now? And so if you're sat in

46:05

that chair listening to these multiple voices

46:07

behind the wall, behind the curtain, and

46:09

you're thinking like, which one not should

46:12

I be, but which one

46:14

do I need to date for a

46:16

little while? And the person in the

46:18

first chair is like this party

46:21

animal guy and it's the id and it's

46:23

someone that you need to get in touch

46:25

with your animal nature. You need to get

46:27

in touch with fun. You need to get

46:29

in touch with the fact that you have a body.

46:32

Like there might be a time and place for that.

46:35

Or maybe the second person is

46:37

a businessman and you're like, okay,

46:39

this person I could partner with

46:41

and learn a thing or two

46:43

about creating a name for myself

46:45

and going out and achieving something.

46:48

And the person in the third

46:50

chair is a spiritualist and

46:52

a guru and somebody who is

46:54

in touch with higher things and

46:56

community and the greater good and

46:58

something bigger than yourself, like

47:00

that's the super ego. Like maybe

47:03

it's not that you need to do them all at

47:05

the same time, but you need to figure out which

47:07

one is the next season. And so

47:09

as you brain dump and put them

47:11

in the buckets, the next thing you

47:14

gotta do is pick one of these

47:16

three to have a heightened focus on.

47:18

Hopefully don't lose yourself in them, over

47:21

identify with them, hopefully have a bit

47:23

of a balance between these things. But

47:25

as you go to make those decisions

47:27

about which of these voices

47:30

in those buckets do you listen to

47:32

and let steer the ship in the

47:34

next season of your creative practice, what

47:36

you can do is

47:39

take a look at these three

47:41

buckets and say, which of these

47:44

do I need space for in

47:46

my creative journey today and move

47:48

with that one? You

47:50

take a peek behind the curtain, you

47:53

take a look at who these individuals

47:56

are and you say, which of these

47:58

am I gonna get? know

48:00

a little bit better, spend a little

48:02

bit more time, and do a creative

48:04

project focusing in on. Creative

48:46

Pet Talk is your weekly podcast companion

48:49

for your creative journey. I'm your host

48:51

Andy J. Pizza. I'm a New York

48:53

Times best-selling picture book maker and illustrator

48:55

for clients like Apple and Xbox. I've

48:57

talked teams at creative hubs like Warby

48:59

Parker and Sesame Street and I make

49:01

this podcast because as someone

49:03

with ADHD it takes a whole lot

49:05

of creativity just to get out of

49:07

bed in the morning, let alone attempting

49:09

to try to create a thriving creative

49:11

practice. This show is just me sharing

49:13

the things that seem to be helping me in

49:16

case it helps anybody else. Shout

49:18

out to Yoni Wolf and the band Y

49:20

for our theme music and soundtrack. Huge thanks

49:23

to Connor Jones of Pinning Beautiful for sound

49:25

design and editing the show. Massive

49:27

thanks to Katie Chandler, Ryan

49:29

Appleton, and Sophie Miller for

49:31

podcast assistance of all kinds.

49:33

Thanks to you for listening.

49:35

Until we speak again, stay

49:37

Pepto. you