0:00

The public of London is being failed

0:02

by an institutionally sexist, racist,

0:05

and homophobic met riddled

0:07

with billing and poor leadership,

0:10

the most damning report in the forces

0:12

history worn today. Following

0:14

the murder of Sarah Everard by serving

0:16

officer Wayne Cousins. The Met

0:18

police appointed Baroness Louise

0:21

Casey to lead an independent review

0:23

of its standards of behavior. One

0:25

of the findings of the Casey report, she

0:28

highlighted incidents including dildos

0:30

being put in coffee mugs bags

0:32

of urine thrown at cars and ethnic

0:34

minority officers being ridiculed as

0:37

examples of misconduct. Rate

0:40

victims were being failed with forensic

0:42

samples taken from them and stored

0:44

in fridges so full that evidence

0:47

was being ruined through combination. Women

0:50

and children had been left behind

0:52

and placed at greater risk than necessary

0:54

because of the decision to exclude violence

0:57

against them from a definition of

0:59

serious violence, which focused instead

1:01

on tackling knife crime and drugs.

1:04

What needs to be done? Casey

1:06

states that these failings are primarily

1:08

due to poor management and made

1:11

a succession of recommendations for

1:13

reform. These included

1:15

the need to repair, stop and search in

1:17

order to stop the met over policing

1:19

Black Londoners as well as

1:21

the need to narrowing and divert legacy

1:24

gap amongst officers. She

1:26

suggested bringing in specialist expertise

1:29

from outside to improve management.

1:32

She says the vetting system for offices

1:34

is broken, and the caseloads for

1:36

rape, sexual abuse, and domestic abuse

1:39

offices are unmanageably high.

1:41

Dane Louise added I absolutely recognized

1:44

the commitment that met officers make

1:46

to protecting the people of the capital

1:48

city every day. But everyone

1:51

within the met also now needs to

1:53

recognize that its failings go well

1:55

beyond the actions of bad Apple offices.

1:57

The met can now no longer presume

2:00

that it has the permission of the people of

2:02

London to police them. But it is

2:04

fixable if the that recognizes the

2:06

true scale of the challenge in front

2:08

of it with drastic and effective

2:11

action.

2:22

Hey, lovely listeners, and welcome to crime

2:24

analyst in the intelligent cell. This

2:27

episode is going to be slightly different.

2:29

I'm going to tell you about Sarah Everett's

2:31

horrific murder first of all. And

2:33

then you'll hear from my special guest, Henry

2:36

Riley, an LBC journalist, who

2:38

did an excellent investigation into a case,

2:40

and it's a case that you need to know about.

2:43

And within the interview, we also discussed

2:45

Baroness Louise Casey's independent review

2:48

into the culture of the Met and her

2:50

disturbing findings in the

2:52

wake of Sarah's murder. It

2:54

all interconnects. First

2:57

to Sarah though, who mustn't be forgotten

2:59

in all of this. Sarah Everard

3:01

was abducted raped and murdered on the third of

3:03

March twenty twenty one. When

3:05

she went missing, friends of mine sent

3:08

me the missing poster. And I posted

3:10

it on social media. You see, I used

3:12

to live where Sarah went missing. And my

3:14

friends told me that the police were knocking on doors

3:16

telling women not to go out at night.

3:19

Just like they did when Peter Sutcliffe

3:21

was killing women forty years before.

3:24

The man responsible was a serving met

3:26

police officer, Wayne Cousins. Sara

3:29

was walking home that night, she'd been

3:31

to see a friend. Cousins had

3:33

hired a car and driven to London.

3:35

And he was driving in the same area

3:38

at the same time. He saw

3:40

Sarah, he stopped her, and he

3:42

put her in handcuffs. He

3:44

put her in his hire car, and then

3:46

he drove her off to Kent, where

3:48

he raped her, and then he killed

3:50

her. And he disposed of her

3:52

body like he was disposing of rubbish.

3:55

What followed was an outpouring. Sarah's

3:58

case lit the spark of

4:00

grief, anger, and shock. Anger

4:02

from us women because we rarely

4:05

feel safe due to male violence. And

4:07

due to the fact that he was a police officer. Then

4:10

came Sabina Nessa's murder, and a

4:12

vigil for Sarah at Clark and Common, where

4:14

the police were heavy handed manhandling

4:17

women and arresting them, damaging

4:19

trust even further. And in the

4:21

wake of Sarah's murder, there was denial a

4:24

rotten apple, the commissioner said,

4:26

another officer said when cousins were sentenced

4:29

that he wasn't a police officer. But

4:31

the simple fact is that he was a police

4:33

officer. And then a senior officer

4:35

from New Scotland yard advised us women

4:38

to flag down buses if we felt unsafe.

4:40

And the North Yorkshire police and crime commissioner

4:43

said that women should become more streetwise

4:46

and inverted commas and that we should

4:48

challenge being arrested. I

4:50

mean, You literally cannot make

4:52

this up. And I've talked about that before

4:54

and the incredible mental gymnastics

4:56

by men to blame women rather

4:59

than focus on male violence. And the

5:01

men who commit it. And since

5:03

then, we've heard nonstop about other

5:05

horrific cases, and we talk about

5:07

some of them in this interview. What

5:09

I will say is that women really have

5:11

had enough. And if that's not

5:13

enough, Wayne Cousins' extensive

5:15

history of exposing himself has

5:17

recently come out. We talk

5:20

about that in this interview too, and

5:22

it connects to Henry's investigation. As

5:24

does Baroness Casey's independent review

5:27

into the Metz culture, which was

5:29

just published on March the twenty first.

5:32

Now I've read the three hundred and sixty three

5:34

page review and it's deeply

5:36

disturbing. Or be it not

5:38

new? Well, it's not

5:40

new to me and probably most

5:42

women who've worked in the met. It's

5:45

stark, an important reading.

5:47

Highlighting institutional racism, sexism,

5:50

misogyny, and homophobia. Baroness

5:53

Casey calls for a root and branch

5:55

reform at every level. It's

5:58

three hundred and sixty three pages long and

6:00

not one word is wasted. And

6:02

Baroness Casey highlights

6:04

eight key findings. And sixteen

6:07

action points. With the caveat

6:09

that if nothing changes, the Metropolitan

6:11

Police Service must be disbanded. Now

6:14

for disclosure, I got halfway through

6:16

the report, and I had to put it down

6:18

late into the night. I felt physically

6:20

sick and I actually felt sick the whole

6:22

day before the publication and I was

6:25

waiting for it to land. It

6:27

brought up a lot of things for me. And I

6:29

share some of those things in this interview

6:31

for the first time which I've not shared publicly.

6:34

I chose to share because all the women

6:36

that I know, including me, Hold

6:38

on to things that men do to us.

6:41

At home, in the workplace, in

6:43

the street, and somehow we

6:45

feel that we're to blame and the messaging

6:48

is always that we are to blame

6:50

and that we should keep the secret. Well,

6:53

I decided to share this with you

6:55

all. Not for sympathy,

6:58

but because I know it will help someone else.

7:01

And I, for one, thank Baroness Casey

7:03

for her report. I've met

7:05

her. She's a direct and plain

7:07

talker, one whom I respect,

7:10

and I would hug her if she were here right

7:12

now. And in this interview,

7:15

I share what my thoughts are and whether this

7:17

report alongside the many others

7:19

historically will make any difference

7:21

in reality in terms of future change

7:23

for the met. Okay. So that's

7:25

a longer introduction than what I'd planned.

7:28

But you can probably tell we talk about a lot

7:30

of very important details of how

7:32

we got here, how Wayne Cousins

7:34

and David Carrick and others were and

7:36

are enabled by a culture that

7:39

should uphold the law. And

7:41

so here's the content warning. This

7:43

is not an easy lesson. Okay.

7:45

With that having been said, let's dive into

7:47

this fascinating interview with Henry

7:49

Riley. Today, I'm joined

7:52

by very special guest, and it's

7:54

in the wake of a number of really

7:56

disturbing revelations

7:59

that have been continuous actually

8:02

in the Metropolitan Police Service. But

8:05

what I find really interesting

8:07

is that we knew about Sarah

8:10

Everard case. And subsequently, it's

8:12

come to light that Wayne Cousins had

8:14

a history of sexual offending

8:16

and he had been indecently exposing

8:19

himself to women. And in

8:21

fact, there were at least six occasions where

8:24

it was reported First

8:26

of all, twenty fifteen, and that's

8:28

when he was with the civil nuclear catastrophe

8:31

and no action was taken despite the

8:33

car registration being taken and handed

8:35

in. In November twenty

8:37

twenty, just four months before Sarah

8:40

was kidnapped raped and

8:42

murdered when cousins and decently

8:44

exposed himself to a woman who was

8:46

riding her bike in Deal Kent,

8:48

and she and got his registration and

8:51

no action was taken. And then

8:53

just days before Sarah

8:56

was abducted raped and

8:58

killed. There were two other occasions

9:00

where Wayne Cousins drove through a drive

9:02

through at McDonald's and he decently

9:04

exposed himself to

9:06

different women who reported him

9:09

to their boss, but more so they

9:11

both reported him to the Metropolitan Police

9:13

and They gave the CCTV

9:16

footage with the car registration and

9:19

the card he used to buy the food and

9:21

yet nothing happened. Now,

9:24

this is something that should alarm everybody

9:26

and I wanted to talk to a special guest

9:28

because well, he's gonna introduce

9:31

himself because this isn't just a

9:33

one off where we say, well, we'll learn

9:35

the lessons. And if

9:37

action had been taken in that case

9:39

with Wayne Cousins, then he would have been

9:41

suspended or he would have been

9:43

sacked. And that's what most people think.

9:46

But today, I want to talk about what

9:48

goes on in reality. And my

9:50

guests who were explain who

9:52

he is and what he does and what he found

9:55

out, well, please introduce yourself.

9:57

Thank you very much, Laura. Yes. My name is Henry

10:00

Riley. I'm a reporter at

10:02

the Radio Station

10:03

LBC. Thank you so much.

10:05

And what do you do, Henry Watts?

10:07

What work do you do? Can you tell my listeners

10:09

and and also this important investigation

10:12

that you uncovered some really concerning

10:14

things? That's right. Well, thank you very much for

10:16

having me on. So as a reporter, LBC,

10:19

I focus on sort of a a number of different

10:21

subject areas, a number of different topics.

10:23

And as you referenced right at the start, of course,

10:25

with the Casey Review, with various

10:28

troubling stories that have come out of the Metropolitan

10:30

Police, something that which we're which we're really keen

10:32

at LBC. It's a focus on is,

10:34

of course, some of the practices that go on

10:36

within police forces. And of course,

10:38

we're located in London, a huge

10:41

majority of our audience is based in London.

10:43

So the Metropolitan Police comes under

10:45

particular focus, indeed, up until

10:47

fairly recently, we were the only radio station that

10:49

used to host a regular phone in with the commissioner

10:52

of the Metz. That dates back to when Lord Stevens

10:54

was the commissioner in the early two thousand. So

10:57

it's it's a it's a well known radio station

10:59

for really trying to hold the top brass

11:01

of the Metropolitan Police to account.

11:04

And I was alerted by

11:06

someone who, in fact, two serving

11:08

offers who were who were in the met, one

11:10

still in the met, one who was with the met, who

11:13

who's now moved to a force up

11:15

north. And they were

11:17

essentially having a conversation with me

11:19

because I was keen to explore

11:21

some of these issues as you referenced

11:23

Laura with rogue officers and just and just to

11:25

see whether they were aware of any,

11:28

they they reached out to me and they were concerned

11:30

about one particular case. And this is the officer

11:32

of which I did a story. It was

11:34

involving a serving officer who

11:36

they told me some detail about and it's

11:39

it's it's fairly strong language, but but I think

11:41

it's important to explain Laura that he

11:43

was caught masturbating twice on

11:45

a train journey. And that was the indecent

11:47

exposure for which this officer was was actually

11:50

ended up being convicted for. And

11:52

so I was

11:54

bemused that that officer could

11:56

potentially still be in the job. I put

11:58

some questions in. I spoke indeed with some other

12:00

officers who who were currently in the force.

12:03

And what I was slightly struck

12:05

by was was a a few officers sort of said

12:07

to me, oh, yeah. No. This particular individual stood

12:09

in the force, and it was almost sort of like

12:11

it hadn't occurred to them that that this

12:13

may be a problem. Now that's not a

12:15

particular assertion necessarily on

12:18

their view of that, but it was it was it was

12:20

it was completely crazy to me. And I thought,

12:22

this is this is mad. This person is is still

12:24

serving officer. And, I mean, I can go

12:26

on Laura, but but, you know, what we found

12:28

was that this particular incident happened,

12:31

the act was in twenty seventeen, so it

12:33

was a while ago. And then in

12:35

twenty eighteen, there was a disciplinary hearing. Interestingly,

12:38

when you hear about these and you will have heard

12:40

countless instances of this lawyer, you

12:42

have when you have disciplinary hearings, they are

12:44

sometimes chaired by an external candidate. Now,

12:47

this particular disciplinary hearing

12:49

was chaired by Helen Ball. She was the

12:51

assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police

12:53

at the time until last September She

12:56

was the acting deputy commissioner when, of course,

12:58

the Steven House briefly took on the force

13:00

while they were looking for the new commissioner

13:02

which turned out to be some are growing. So so this wasn't

13:04

an external candidate who the met can say, well,

13:06

you know, we we had no say over this. We can't

13:09

sack rogue officers. This was someone in

13:11

the met an extremely high level,

13:13

and they then decided that the particular officer

13:15

in this case should receive a final

13:18

written warning despite the fact

13:20

they had publicly masturbated on a train

13:22

twice rather than being sacked

13:24

as an officer.

13:25

Well, I would like to say that I'm shocked

13:27

and I'm appalled And when

13:29

I read your article, I just felt

13:32

like this was just business

13:34

as usual. And that's

13:36

what continues to alarm me

13:38

about these cases. And in the

13:40

wake of Sarah Everard, of

13:42

course, there was this outpouring this

13:45

there was this anger that women

13:47

felt because it wasn't just

13:49

about saying, well, this is a a few rotten

13:51

apples. What the met went on to say was

13:53

that women should flag down

13:55

buses and just make ridiculous comments

13:58

about what women should do in the wake

14:00

of one of their officers kidnapping

14:03

using his warrant card to get

14:05

Sarah into a car that

14:07

he had hired. And

14:09

there was clear planning and premeditation. And

14:12

the way of just sort of explaining it

14:14

way was, well, we're always gonna have these

14:16

few bad apples. Therefore nothing

14:18

to see here. And women just

14:20

don't feel that way. We feel that we

14:23

are constantly the target of

14:25

male violence and predatory behavior and

14:28

so to have men carrying

14:30

warrant cards and using that

14:32

in the commission of a crime or even

14:35

with the officer that you've talked about,

14:38

and I will name him because he has been

14:40

named publicly, PC Terry

14:42

Malka, He was

14:44

masturbating late at night on a train,

14:46

and he was caught, as you said, not just once,

14:48

but twice. And he was also he also had

14:50

a vape pen and he was spoken

14:52

to, but the point was he continued to

14:56

masturbate on a train and

14:58

he denied it initially, and he claimed

15:00

that it was down to a sleep disorder. And

15:03

then he came up with, well, this was what

15:05

he called prior pism, which is a condition

15:07

that causes assistant and painful directions.

15:09

I mean, this to me is the equivalent of PMS

15:12

PoreMe syndrome, but it's

15:14

complete nonsense. And

15:16

he keeps his job. And

15:18

the fact that when I looked

15:20

at your article and I read more about

15:23

him, what was said by

15:25

the mayor was that he is office based

15:27

as if that is okay. Right?

15:30

As if there aren't women in these

15:32

offices, as if, you know, you can

15:34

have somebody who cannot be trusted holding

15:37

a warrant card and being kept on

15:39

office based duties. But the problem is, and I've

15:41

worked in the mayor, is that whoever puts

15:43

that sanction on him will move

15:45

on. And he will bide

15:47

his time and then he would just go back

15:50

to normal behavior. And

15:52

what we know about these types of behaviors

15:55

is they're gateway crimes their gateway,

15:57

crimes to stalking rape and admit and

15:59

murder. And that's what we've seen with

16:01

Sarah Everard. And we've seen I've seen it

16:03

because I've spent twenty seven years profiling

16:07

this type of behavior and the men

16:09

who do it, and yet it's not

16:11

taken seriously. And as you revealed

16:13

this was in the wake of The mayor

16:15

saying we take violence

16:17

against women very seriously, and yet they

16:19

have officers in their midst still holding

16:22

warrant cards and excuses being

16:24

made. Did that shock you

16:26

when you followed up and found that

16:28

out? It did shock me. And just

16:30

to add to that, you're quite right. The response

16:32

I got was that oh, well, he's a you know, he's

16:35

no longer public facing. He's although

16:37

he's in the South Area Command Unit, which is where

16:39

this officer, you named him, he's currently serving.

16:42

Know, he was now off his banks. Well, as

16:44

you pointed it out, and indeed, when I spoke with

16:46

Dane Vera Bear, she, of course, was the former victim's

16:48

commissioner until not long ago. And incidentally, spoke

16:50

with the former commander Roy Ram as well,

16:52

who both pointed out to me, doesn't

16:54

matter if you're office based. As you said,

16:57

Laurie, you still have a warrant card. If you

16:59

are out and, you

17:01

know, something kicks off as it were or or a

17:03

crime happens, you were expected as a police

17:05

officer, a serving police officer, to

17:07

jump in. It doesn't matter if you're office based. You

17:09

have that warrant card. You have the authority on

17:12

behalf of the Crown. This individual

17:14

is representing the

17:16

highest order of Britain, such

17:19

a privilege. And I know I'm, you know, telling not telling

17:21

you this law, but I'm just, you know, internalizing your own

17:23

head because there you've worked on the meth for many years. What

17:25

a privilege it is to have a warrant card.

17:27

And that should be a right reserved for

17:30

the real best, you know, the great the

17:32

great and the best and for the, you know, some

17:34

really amazing individuals in society. And

17:36

there are many police officers who are incredible and,

17:38

you know, I have friends in the in the job some

17:41

of the officers I I spoke with who who indeed

17:43

have blown the whistle are incredible and really

17:45

are the best of society, but that is a

17:47

a real privilege and that should not be

17:49

extended and, you know, whether you're office based or

17:51

whatnot, doesn't matter you're representing a

17:53

police force that is in serious trouble

17:56

and a police force asked questions to answer. And I thought

17:58

it was really interesting you referenced there, Laura,

18:00

about I mean, there is a sense that people

18:02

move on, don't they? And and this was in twenty

18:04

seventeen. And you've no doubt that the Baro

18:06

commander for that area changed and someone got

18:09

promoted or someone moved around.

18:11

And it ends up becoming a source of

18:13

I suppose rumors got the right word because it's true, but it becomes

18:15

almost an office fable, doesn't it? Oh, well, of course,

18:17

you know, PC, Terry over there was

18:19

done for this. Oh, really? And and and it almost gets

18:21

forgotten about. And just to add as well,

18:23

you said about Gateway. Funny enough, I I

18:25

spoke with Dame Diana Johnson, who, of

18:27

course, is the Chair of the Home Affairs

18:29

Select Committee, and she really put the Arkley.

18:31

This was at the time of the report last month.

18:34

And she was adding that Ashley, this

18:37

act of public indecency, this

18:39

act of masturbation, is

18:41

can be let's be clear here because

18:43

there there's no suggestion that this particular offer has

18:45

done anything on the scale or to

18:48

the horrific you know, nature of Elaine

18:50

Cousins or David Carrick. But nonetheless,

18:53

it is a warning sign, as you say,

18:55

and it doesn't matter if this if person is

18:57

is never going to commit an act

18:59

as heinous as that. It is something which

19:01

we should all be concerned by. It's something that

19:03

means you you certainly shouldn't be a

19:05

police officer. At the end of.

19:07

And so when you say, was I shocked? I

19:09

was in a sense because you you you you hear

19:12

these names of your David Carrix

19:14

and your Wayne cousins, and they've gone as such huge

19:16

millet media attention because of

19:18

the nature of their crimes. Something

19:21

like masturbation, which is on a scale,

19:23

which is certainly below anything

19:25

of the nature of the crimes, which those two

19:28

individuals committed. It just

19:30

struck me how there was a sense

19:32

of it was almost it didn't shock officers

19:34

who'd served with him. And I found that incredible,

19:37

and there was even a sense of and they didn't

19:39

say this really glee. I have to say, Laura, but there was

19:41

a sense of not a joke. Maybe

19:43

that's unfair, but a sort of not

19:46

an always ban to fair, but it was it was this

19:48

sort of known thing that was perhaps a bit

19:50

of a rumor and, you

19:51

know, maybe got bought up occasionally that this officer

19:53

had done this. It's not funny. It's not acceptable.

19:56

Well, I completely agree. There's nothing

19:58

funny about that sort of

20:00

behavior. And isn't it ironic that

20:03

the police are meant to uphold the law, but

20:05

yet here you have an officer who's

20:07

breaking the law very clearly and flouting

20:09

the law coming up with excuses for

20:12

his behavior. He also said Well,

20:14

he made a reference to previous sexual activity

20:16

with his girlfriend when he was asleep. As

20:19

if he had done something before with her,

20:21

that was an alarm bell again

20:23

for me. So what

20:25

I do know about this type of behavior is

20:27

that oftentimes it does escalate

20:30

And why would you want an officer

20:32

who's doing this? Bear in mind, he chose not

20:34

to go home and do it there. He chose to do it

20:36

in a public place and space. That

20:39

was intentional, and he tried to hide

20:41

it when he was about to be

20:43

challenged. He had the headrest cover

20:45

from the from a headrest. So he knew what he

20:47

was doing was wrong. And that's

20:50

also what I take issue with, and

20:52

to not be held to the highest standard,

20:54

to create this double standard, And

20:56

actually when I was in the mayor, the director of professional

20:59

standards was called a director of

21:01

double standards because we

21:03

knew that officers were not being

21:06

disciplined appropriately. The

21:08

misconduct, gross misconduct wasn't

21:10

being taken seriously. And

21:12

I had a number of experiences myself

21:15

with officers. One officer that was brought

21:17

back after he had been

21:19

arrested for Harrisman. Now

21:21

he had been working on

21:24

a murder squad on a very high profile

21:26

case and he had an affair with a

21:28

significant witness, and he was told

21:31

that he had to stop that relationship. And

21:33

he refused He flouted his commanding

21:36

officer. He continued and watch

21:38

more. She didn't want the relationship, and

21:40

he was stalking her. That's

21:42

what he was arrested for. Now

21:44

the Crown Prosecution Service declined to

21:46

prosecute him, and

21:48

he was actually found guilty

21:51

of Gross misconduct, and he was sacked and

21:53

dismissed from the Met Police. But

21:56

a very senior officer decided to

21:58

bring him back in. And he was

22:00

brought back in and he was given to my

22:02

unit without the full knowledge of

22:04

everything that had been done and that

22:06

when that officer started to cause problems

22:08

with women on my unit and had bodied

22:10

out with another officer on my unit.

22:13

And that other officer who he

22:15

became Bestmates with,

22:18

I was informed, had a history

22:20

of domestic violence, and had been

22:23

found on camera beating

22:25

his wife who was also

22:27

a serving met police officer. And

22:30

when I was told that history, I

22:32

was told but What we did

22:34

was we stopped his career for a year.

22:36

We wouldn't allow him to be promoted. That

22:38

was his punishment. That's why

22:41

I'm very cute to these things because when

22:43

people move on and that

22:45

so called punishment is about

22:47

stopping someone's promotion and yet they're handed

22:49

or given to my unit.

22:52

And I don't know the history because these histories

22:54

don't follow the responses around. It's the rumors

22:56

like you said that do. And I

22:58

was called into assisting commissioner's

23:01

office and a commander's office who

23:03

told me about his history, and then

23:05

it made sense why I was having

23:07

trouble with these two officers and why

23:09

my female colleagues on my team were all

23:11

having trouble with them. And

23:13

when I had spoken to my boss about

23:16

challenging this behavior, we were both

23:18

called in to this senior officer's room

23:21

And when it was laid out

23:24

about his behavior, he came at

23:26

me. I was sat on a chair with his

23:28

hand raised and shouting at

23:30

me now, you listen here young lady

23:32

and I just froze. I

23:34

didn't know what he was gonna do next, but his

23:36

body language was terrifying. And

23:39

I froze. And the commander

23:41

shouted at him. He then shouted

23:44

back that he was gonna call the police Federation.

23:46

He left the office slam the door

23:48

and some of the personal and professional

23:51

pictures up on the wall of this

23:53

senior officer's office fell to the

23:55

floor And what happened there

23:57

on out was even more shocking because,

24:00

yes, I had called out this behavior

24:02

and This officer

24:05

wasn't suspended and

24:07

when I called that out of why when I'm

24:09

working in the heart of New Scotland yard pro finding

24:11

dangerous and violent men. Why wasn't his

24:14

behavior being put under the microscope

24:16

and him being investigated? And

24:18

I said, I refused to work in a place that

24:20

treated me and women

24:22

like that, and it was declared a critical

24:25

incident. But everyone

24:27

wrapped around him. He called the police Federation.

24:29

He had everyone wrapped around him despite

24:31

his history and they brought him back

24:33

and he and the other officer were

24:36

sent to Bara. That was sort of

24:38

the punishment posting sent to Bara

24:40

and they still carried their warrant

24:42

cards. And in fact, the police officer

24:44

with history of domestic violence was

24:46

involved with a community safety unit who

24:48

dealt with domestic violence, cases,

24:51

and victims, and he

24:53

was investigated. But before that investigation

24:55

concluded, he resigned. And

24:58

he moved out of the met with full pension

25:01

and started lecturing at a university with

25:04

young vulnerable women That's

25:06

why I know a lot about how

25:09

women are treated and how this

25:11

culture of the bro culture

25:13

of covering up things and saying

25:15

to people, well, we're gonna

25:17

stop them from being promoted or we do some

25:19

kind of informal punishment. It just doesn't

25:22

work. And what happens is The

25:24

abuser gets enabled, but the

25:26

person who makes a complaint is

25:28

the one that gets maligned and isolated

25:31

and feel like they've done something wrong.

25:34

How can that be right? You know, when this power

25:36

and control dynamic plays out? And

25:39

I'm one of a number of people. And yes,

25:41

I've never spoken out about what happened.

25:43

But I went through Baroness Louise Casey's

25:46

report with great detail, and

25:48

yes, it's huge detail that she's written, but

25:50

it's the same stuff over

25:53

and over again. And we saw it with Lord

25:55

MacPherson after the Stephen Lawrence murder,

25:57

I was there in the met. When that was meant to bring

25:59

about wholesale change, and now we're

26:01

seeing it again. And I

26:04

just wonder what will it take?

26:07

What will it take? Because there's the one side

26:09

where they can say, well, this is just a too

26:11

bad apples. There's the other side, and I remember

26:13

after Sarah's, after Wayne Cousins

26:15

was convicted, a senior officer

26:18

came out and said, Well, he's not a

26:20

police officer. He's not a police officer

26:22

to us, but he bloody well was, and

26:24

he used his warrant card as

26:26

did David Carrick in the commission

26:29

of those crimes and that power

26:31

and control and that abusive power

26:34

is the worst thing. And when

26:36

there are in decent exposures prior.

26:38

I just want to go back to that, and then then you

26:40

can comment because I've said a lot of things.

26:42

But the gateway issue is a very

26:45

serious issue. And I've worked

26:47

on cases like Sally Anne Bowman who

26:49

was the aspiring model

26:51

in Croydon in two thousand

26:53

and five who was raped and murdered by

26:55

a man called Mark Dixie who had

26:57

a whole history of rate

27:00

of indecision exposure. He should

27:02

have been on the sex offender's register, but he

27:04

wasn't He offended not just in

27:06

the UK, but in Australia. He

27:08

was a prolific rapist. He had

27:10

decently exposed himself. It was never taken

27:12

seriously, and he escalated to

27:15

murder. It takes time,

27:17

but it happens, and the same with Libby

27:19

Squires, who was

27:21

abducted on the thirty first

27:23

of January twenty nineteen, and

27:26

she was raped and murdered, but she was flashed

27:28

at weeks before as were a

27:30

number of other women who

27:32

this individual went to students

27:35

home addresses or women, I should say,

27:37

peaked, masturbated, flashed,

27:40

And within a mile square radius, this

27:42

guy was operating, and he did all

27:44

these heinous things that were seen as lay level

27:47

nuisance behaviors. And then he

27:49

of ducks, rapes, and kills Libby.

27:52

And that's why I feel so strongly about

27:54

it. There there are these warning signs,

27:56

these big warning signs but

27:59

they're seen as just nuisance behavior

28:01

or the woman is seen as just being a difficult

28:04

woman. And that is not okay.

28:06

And everything that Baroness Casey's review

28:09

shows is that it didn't get

28:11

better after Stephen Lawrence and

28:13

the Lord MacPherson

28:14

report. It's gotten worse.

28:17

Yeah. Absolutely. And you referenced

28:20

the McPherson report, of course. That was I mean, it's

28:22

incredible to think that it was, you know, Stephen

28:24

Lawrence was merged in ninety three that

28:27

was commissioned in ninety seven and

28:29

then was published in ninety nine. So so,

28:31

you know, that that had years to

28:34

to come to the conclusions that

28:36

it did. So William McPherson, you

28:38

know, with those I think it was seventy

28:40

recommendations at at the time.

28:43

Labeling it institutionally racist. And indeed,

28:45

something was working on today for LBC in in

28:48

light of the Casey report was going back and looking

28:50

at what all of those commissioners since

28:52

have said, and there was a clip of of support

28:54

London at the time who at the

28:57

start art was very reluctant to accept definition

28:59

of institutional racism. He said he's he's he's he's

29:01

struggled to to really accept that and then

29:03

eventually decided he was the wrong right person

29:06

to stay in the job and turn the met around and

29:08

and therefore, adopted the definition then he was out

29:10

later that year. He he ended up going.

29:12

John Stevens, now Lord Stevens, said said

29:14

the same thing. Lord Blair.

29:16

Ian Blair said the exact same thing. I mean,

29:18

it was support Stephenson, Dan Crestedich,

29:21

Lord Hogan Hale. The McPherson report

29:23

has been referenced by every single commissioner

29:25

since, every single commissioner. And

29:28

rightly so, nothing has changed

29:30

as you say. Or no, maybe that's unfair, but

29:32

but the sentiment hasn't changed. Because

29:34

it's the same topic, isn't it Everard

29:36

And one thing I thought was particularly interesting, I

29:38

was listening to Baroness Casey on with my LBC

29:41

colleague, Sheila Focuzzi this afternoon. She

29:43

came to the studio and and was speaking with Sheila.

29:46

And, actually, Sheila was sort of asking

29:48

her, well, what? And I know you spoke with Sheila Fergus here a

29:50

number of times in LBC. Laura. And

29:52

it was it was what what how are we going to know this

29:54

as a success? What what would be your worst nightmare,

29:56

Louise? And Louise Casey

29:58

was saying that, actually, it's that in

30:01

ten years, we all go, oh, yeah, we that that

30:03

really should have been a big moment in that report and nothing

30:05

started. I'm sat here again as an ex reviewer

30:07

saying, There really needs to be a review into

30:09

this, but I've laid out the challenges. And

30:12

Louise Casey, one thing I thought was was particularly

30:14

interesting that she referenced with Sheila

30:17

was that actually the media, I

30:19

myself, yourself with the podcast,

30:22

essentially people who scrutinized the met are

30:24

actually seen as bit of a nuisance. And that

30:26

was something that was very starkly put

30:28

by Baroness Casey. She was saying that, actually,

30:31

what's given police in a bad name? The

30:33

response from many offices Louise Casey

30:35

spoke with was the media,

30:37

us bringing to attention rogue officers, us

30:40

reporting on, you know, various f o y's in to

30:42

how many offices have have convictions

30:44

or etcetera, etcetera, that

30:47

is the problem in their eyes. It's not the

30:49

fact that these instances actually

30:51

exist. It's not the fact that there are

30:53

such stark numbers. It's the fact that we report

30:55

on it. And actually, police officers, I referenced

30:57

this earlier, do an amazing job there

30:59

was, of course, an incident on on Saturday evening.

31:02

I think it was with every of those two officers in

31:04

in SoHo who were off duty

31:06

and jumped out and clearly on the face

31:08

of it early on, did a remarkable thing

31:10

and ended up what I know both went to hospital,

31:13

and and the bravery there is incredible. But

31:15

equally, you have to report the

31:17

good with the bad. And we've seen some amazing,

31:19

you know, instances I think of P. C. Alton, I

31:21

think it was who, you know, ended up tasering a man

31:23

after he was hit in the head and These

31:26

instances are incredible, but you

31:28

can't expect it to be a blank check from the media

31:30

just to talk about how how brilliant officers are.

31:32

And I do think from working in the media.

31:34

I don't know if you would agree with this, Laura, but it seems

31:36

to be a there was a reluctance to

31:39

call out various services

31:42

such as the police, such as the armed forces because

31:44

they put their lives on the line, they do such a fantastic

31:46

job. And as I say, they do, but

31:48

it doesn't mean you're exempt from scrutiny. And

31:51

so this sort of I

31:53

do feel like the barrier in terms of of

31:55

pursuing these cases and running with these stories

31:58

has been largely stopped. And and just to reference

32:00

just on the on the story that I ran as well, Baroness

32:02

Kate it was something Baroness Casey addressed yesterday when

32:04

she was speaking with journalists. And and largely

32:07

as we thought she she found it incredible that when an

32:09

officer is convicted of indecision exposure

32:11

on a train isn't sad. She said,

32:13

in what other line of work would you get

32:16

away with that? If I did that, that's

32:18

LVC, I would not expect

32:20

to be, you know, have a final

32:22

written warning. I wouldn't be in my job anymore.

32:24

I think that's absolutely plain to see. And

32:26

then we actually had an update on it last

32:28

week as well, Laura, where the depth May for policing,

32:30

Sophie Linden was in front of the Home Affairs Select

32:33

Committee, actually chaired by Diana Johnson, who

32:35

I referenced earlier, and she

32:37

has confirmed that this particular case,

32:39

this specific case, is being investigated

32:41

as part of Operation Onyx. So we should have an update

32:44

on the specific case. By the end

32:46

of this month, by the end of March, the commissioner

32:48

Mark Rowley has said, but, you

32:50

know, there's a lot to unpack in in what you said

32:52

but I do think that the the the thing that was

32:54

striking for me is almost to stain

32:57

the the frustration that the met have with

32:59

us for porting these stories, I find surprising

33:01

because, actually, the

33:03

the quicker we get the police force

33:05

working for everyone the

33:07

the more positive stories will have on the police. Right?

33:09

And and the more good work will be recognized as

33:11

opposed to these people who who have given them

33:13

for such a terrible name.

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34:40

Yes. And there have been

34:42

many, unfortunately. I

34:45

mean, we we talked about PC

34:47

Terry Melker. But what about the

34:49

two officers who stood on the cordon of Nicole

34:51

Smallman and and Phoebe Henry and

34:53

their bodies? They were meant to

34:55

be guarding them, and they took pictures,

34:57

and they took selfies. And

35:00

those two officers were PC Dennis, Jaffa,

35:03

and Jamie Lewis. And

35:05

their mother, the sisters' mothers, had to

35:07

fight for the truth and

35:09

for accountability. When they

35:11

took those pictures, they shared it with other officers

35:14

on a watch app group. That tells

35:16

you that the culture is one that

35:18

accepts that that behavior is okay. It's far

35:20

greater than just those two officers. And

35:23

then you've got PC Liam Boschine

35:25

who was just gelled for forty two weeks

35:27

because he sent a photo of two men having

35:30

sex with a decapitated woman's body

35:32

to colleagues, to work colleagues in

35:34

the met as banter. And

35:36

again, that tells us that this is

35:38

a culture It's not about

35:41

one or two people. And

35:44

my experience, when I'm one person,

35:46

but in Baroness Casey's report,

35:48

there are many other women who've their experience,

35:51

and there are many others who will never share their

35:53

experience. And so you mentioned

35:55

the words institutionalize, which

35:57

is what Lord MacPherson used,

35:59

then I remember I was in the racially violent crime

36:01

task force, and I remember so much pushback

36:04

when it was defining the the met were

36:06

institutionally racist.

36:10

And lots of officers said that they did

36:12

not accept that. And the same as Sapur

36:14

Khan said, so what happens when The

36:17

most senior officer and others don't accept

36:19

the findings of an independent review

36:21

because that's what's happening right now with Mark

36:23

Rowley. And I'm really disappointed he's

36:26

taken issue with the word institutionalized. But

36:30

these were baroness Louise Casey's words.

36:32

It hasn't changed in certainly my

36:34

experience of the met

36:36

and all the things that we've heard. And

36:38

I still use in training, Lord MacPherson's

36:41

quote, whenever I train officers, At

36:43

the end of my session, I always say, the

36:45

repetition of past mistakes amounts

36:48

to institutional incompetence. And

36:50

that's a very important thing because if we keep

36:53

doing the same thing over and over and over

36:55

again and but still say what we'll learn the lessons,

36:57

trust and confidence gets eroded. And

37:00

that's what's happened. Trust and confidence

37:02

has been eroded. Londoners are saying

37:05

that they don't trust the mayor. Women are saying

37:07

that we don't trust the mayor. But it's

37:09

also a national. It has a

37:11

knock on nationally, doesn't it? It's not

37:14

just about the mayor per se. This

37:16

rocks pleasing to its core.

37:19

And I would expect everybody to be

37:21

saying in pleasing, we would

37:23

do everything that it takes

37:26

to create change because I'm

37:28

fed up with hearing not all police. Yes,

37:30

I know some great police officers too, by

37:32

the way, across my career. Some of them are still my

37:34

good friends. But I get fed up when

37:36

we talk about male violence and people say, well, not

37:39

all men. Because the serious point

37:41

is it takes all police and

37:43

it takes all men to create this

37:45

change. And Louise Casey has

37:47

put great faith in this sixteen action

37:50

point plan the the recommendations.

37:53

And yes, it's stark reading. I I

37:55

felt nauseous to my stomach reading. Literally,

37:57

no line is wasted in that three hundred

37:59

and sixty three page review. But

38:02

she also said if change can't be

38:05

implemented, it must be disbanded, and

38:07

I have to say I lean towards that.

38:10

Rather than just keep hoping and

38:13

expecting the the right things

38:15

will happen. Because what we've seen

38:17

Historically, what the pastor

38:20

showed us is that the met

38:22

cannot change itself. And

38:24

Louise Casey said the met has to change itself

38:26

and it's not the public job to keep ourselves

38:28

safe from the police, but

38:31

it is such a systemic problem.

38:33

This misogyny and this racism

38:36

and sexism and homophobia. And

38:38

it's not just going to dissipate because

38:41

of three hundred and sixty three page report

38:43

has been written with stark findings.

38:47

White. And, you know, you said you felt

38:49

nauseous reading it. I mean, I remember one particular

38:52

passage that really suck

38:54

with me and that I felt extremely uncomfortable

38:56

about was this idea. I I didn't if you read this

38:58

specific part. It was almost about halfway

39:00

in, I think. About the

39:02

sort of initiation and there was a

39:04

description by an officer who

39:06

said that women were forced to eat whole cheesecakes

39:09

until they vomited. And

39:11

there was one occasion of a male officer being

39:13

sexually assaulted in the shower as part of their initiation.

39:16

And it's just that an initiation to

39:18

join a police force in the first

39:21

way. You know, surely that's going

39:23

for a drink or a coffee with your with your new

39:25

colleagues and talking about how much you want

39:27

to what you want to do good in the

39:29

police, it's it's about if you're a neighborhood officer

39:31

about wanting to crack down on crime or if you're a detective,

39:33

it's about wanting to bring perpetrators to justice.

39:36

Sort of about going out and have and

39:38

forcing colleagues to eat cheesecake.

39:40

And, I mean, it's was it was

39:42

something that I just felt If that happened

39:45

at university sixty years ago,

39:47

we'd be talking about it today. That is something

39:49

that's happening in the police according to

39:51

Louise Casey's report. Now, And

39:54

as you referenced, maybe I've been guilty of this

39:56

through the interview in saying not all police. I

39:58

I think what I'm what I'm saying is it's

40:00

it seems strange is not the right word. It

40:02

it seems extremely disappointing and extremely

40:04

worrying that if Baroness Casey

40:07

has found out that this cheese you know, cake

40:09

eating competition happens for initiation where

40:11

women forced to eat stuff in some sort of

40:13

sick joke. Then you're telling me

40:15

officers don't know that. Of course officers know that

40:17

happens. Swades of officers know that

40:19

happen. And then and and it's not good

40:22

enough to go, well, I'm I'm not

40:24

gonna get involved with that. It's you're a police

40:26

officer. Your job is to report

40:28

that and to make sure that doesn't happen again.

40:30

And I find that staggering that there

40:32

is this lavish culture

40:35

within the force and maybe it's not able to

40:37

on my part, but I find

40:39

the fact that that that still happens

40:42

totally amusing. I know it's not for you because

40:44

you work a extremely high level in New Scotland

40:46

yard, but I just found that extremely

40:48

worrying and amusing to

40:50

the point where something that we would have called

40:52

out at university

40:54

is happening at a police

40:56

force, the biggest police force in the land.

40:59

Yes. And, unfortunately, it is just

41:01

Everard And there were some there would be

41:03

some women who it didn't happen to them while

41:05

I will congratulate you and give you a gold

41:07

star because don't know any women

41:10

who haven't been treated poorly in the police.

41:12

I don't know one woman who I've surveyed

41:14

across my twenty seven years when I've said,

41:16

would you report a sexual assault

41:18

or domestic abuse to the police? The answer

41:21

is always no. And that's from those

41:23

who work in the police. That tells you

41:25

everything. Even when

41:27

MacPherson in the report concluded the

41:29

racially violent crime task force was set up,

41:31

I always said the sexism and

41:33

misogyny was far worse. It

41:35

was covert, but lot of it is

41:37

also over. It's just part of the culture

41:39

and you just have to put up or

41:42

get out. There is no other option.

41:44

And what Louise Casey's report shows

41:46

is that the abusers and the bullies

41:48

are rewarded, and off and what I

41:50

found they were promoted up to get

41:52

rid of them or to move them on or you

41:55

send them elsewhere. Therefore, you've got all the wrong

41:57

people going through the ranks. And you've

41:59

got the good people who try

42:01

and speak out being maligned, being

42:04

isolated, being bullied if your face

42:06

doesn't fit. And that coach has been going

42:08

on for a very long time. And for

42:10

me, it's quite simple. It is a leadership issue.

42:13

And it not being

42:15

seen as a priority. Well, it's the

42:17

same issue as saying that women's

42:19

safety and violence against women is a priority,

42:22

writing a plan, and it just being

42:24

a hollow plan and a piece of

42:26

paper that is not actioned. Nothing

42:29

has changed. And for me,

42:31

having set up, the violent crime

42:33

and intelligence analysis unit

42:35

and having been part of setting up the community

42:37

safety units and changing the

42:39

whole way the met business around domestic

42:42

violence and sexual violence having a proactive

42:44

task force going after dangerous perpetrators,

42:47

seeing all of that undone. Is

42:50

just so gut wrenching to me.

42:52

And yes, people can say, well, this is about austerity

42:54

and it's about the cuts. But a

42:56

senior detective was quoted at a meeting

42:59

in June twenty twenty two being asked

43:01

what resources were needed? How many

43:03

more detectors did they need? And his answer

43:05

was, I don't have a crystal ball. For

43:08

there to be senior leaders who

43:10

are not accountable who are not being

43:12

the voice of the troops and what's required

43:14

for there not to be a work force plan.

43:17

That is abject failure as well.

43:19

The lack of accountability and transparency.

43:22

And when we talk about women, being

43:24

let down. And Louise Casey specifically

43:26

pinpoints women being failed

43:29

and that there needs to be a new deal for

43:31

women and children because She showed

43:33

that the volume was high. We've had an increase in

43:35

reports. We've had a decrease in arrest,

43:37

prosecutions, and convictions. The

43:39

risk level's high. This is where all the murders

43:41

happen. Repeat perpetrators who

43:44

then go on and kill. But yet,

43:46

victims are being dismissed, victim

43:48

blaming is prevalent, No

43:51

follow-up on investigations. No

43:53

histories of perpetrators being checked.

43:56

Well, we know they're not doing that with police

43:58

officers. Let alone The criminals

44:00

missed opportunities, poor

44:03

use of data to inform performance

44:05

and lack of leadership, and there being no

44:07

proactive task force. To deal

44:09

with these dangerous men. That

44:11

for me is all leadership and accountability

44:15

and lack of transparency and

44:17

I just can't see how this is

44:19

going to change even with a scrutiny

44:22

panel and all these things because it it's

44:24

not just about the odd department here

44:26

and there, she spotlighted the firearms

44:29

department that was just rife with

44:31

misogyny. No female

44:33

toilets because women can't handle

44:35

weapons and pictures of women

44:38

holding weapons. The weapon being

44:40

air brushed out and a mop or a kettle

44:42

being put in the woman's hands. That's

44:45

an elite unit that gets all the

44:47

resources and yet the corrupt in

44:49

it that she pinpointed and spotlighted

44:52

is just absolutely vile.

44:55

And they can do what they want

44:58

and have been for a very long time, and

45:00

you can ask any officer about what goes

45:02

on in the firearms unit, the same with

45:04

the parliamentary and diplomatic

45:06

protection unit, which is where

45:09

Wayne Cousins and David Carrick were allowed

45:11

to do whatever they wanted in the darkest corners

45:14

there's still been no real investigation of

45:16

the management in that unit of how

45:18

those two officers were allowed with

45:20

his stories of abuse and decent exposure,

45:23

domestic violence, how they went unchecked.

45:25

There's still been no investigation into that.

45:28

I mean, you can't say to spam the firearms

45:30

unit, but you can disband and

45:33

start again, I believe,

45:35

with the parliamentary and diplomatic

45:37

protection unit that must be disbanded,

45:40

you know, and I'm not someone for radical

45:43

steps. I'm I'm somebody who's very measured.

45:45

But what do you do when it's just been

45:47

going on for decades? And

45:50

decades and independent reviews, the

45:52

money this must have cost. Right? For Baroness

45:54

Casey's, one year being embedded

45:56

in the mayor. What's the cost to

45:58

write that three hundred and sixty three page report,

46:01

the same for Lord Macpherson's review, and

46:03

the costs in women's lives, and

46:05

the damage of trust and confidence So

46:09

there's no easy answer here. And

46:11

Baroness Casey's saying, well, maybe in twenty

46:13

years, you know, she hopes that she's not gonna

46:15

be called back to answer why this

46:17

was a missed opportunity, but I guess

46:19

I still keep

46:20

replaying. Why is it going to be any different?

46:23

Yeah. And I think that's a fair point. I think

46:25

you know, Samap Rowley will be hanging

46:27

his hat on this operation

46:29

on X, which reports back at the end of

46:32

March. If you listened to I

46:34

mean, he was on with Nick Ferrari this morning at LBC.

46:36

He spoke with a few few other outlets as well.

46:38

And it does seem that he almost

46:41

and this is for one to a better expression, but

46:43

he he almost feels like he's sort of gonna put

46:45

a rabbit out the hat. There's sort of such stark numbers

46:47

that this is gonna really reassure journalists, reassure

46:50

that the public, that quite

46:52

how seriously the met is taking this

46:54

right. It's interesting. Certainly, from a journalistic

46:56

point of view, when smart world

46:59

has been in when did he take over it in late

47:01

twenty twenty two, didn't he? And so maybe

47:03

September or November, but he's he's made

47:05

all the right noises at the start

47:07

up until today. Now many people have argued

47:09

he shouldn't have gone far enough, but

47:11

you look at and actually, just to go off

47:13

on the site tangent, I think that what's interesting from

47:15

a media point of view, and we've been guilty of this.

47:18

Why hold my hands up of when you have

47:20

quote, police and commentator. For

47:22

a period, it was one of

47:25

five people. And let's be totally honest,

47:27

who also same thing and all and all were

47:29

well known to people in the industry.

47:32

And now you you look at whistle blowers who

47:34

are often on. I look at miss Rick Metab, I look

47:36

at parmesan, do I look at Shatnam

47:39

Chowdhury. And there's there's a real

47:41

sort of diversity in the media when

47:43

it comes to police and guests, which which there wasn't

47:45

at the start. And I do think that has equipped

47:48

journalists and equipped presenters when

47:50

they do get the likes of Samark Crowley online

47:52

this morning to press him because

47:54

often it's well these people would criticize,

47:56

wouldn't they? They haven't they haven't done the job. Well,

47:58

these women who I referenced have done the job at the highest

48:01

level. I think they've all been super. So they these people

48:03

are supremely qualified and

48:05

actually supremely qualified as we've learned

48:07

from the Casey report against all the odds. So

48:09

if anything, they are the most qualified because

48:11

they reach that rank despite everything, that

48:14

they've had to to go through. The the

48:16

next step from Mark Reilly will be on this big

48:19

report out. I'm very surprised

48:21

that he did confirm the issue

48:23

today in the way he did because he's

48:26

held his hands up a lot, and I'm not suggesting

48:28

that that means he's done with the issue. But, you

48:30

know, he he has been in the Metropolitan Police

48:32

for a long time. And, actually, one thing Nick Ferrari

48:34

asked in this morning was, are you telling me you've

48:36

never seen an instance of any

48:39

of this type of behavior. Louise case is written

48:41

three hundred and sixty pages of it, and you're telling

48:43

me Samark, you haven't witnessed it once.

48:45

And he said he hadn't. So that

48:47

is particularly interesting. They're, you know, whether

48:50

he has or not, and I'm not accusing him of being liar,

48:52

but it it seems it seems strange

48:54

that the remark at the highest level of policing

48:56

has never witnessed that. That

48:59

report from from remark could be interesting,

49:01

but the the lack of recognizing institutional

49:04

racism and taking issue with

49:06

that. I do wonder where that's come from because

49:08

it doesn't chime with what Samark Rowley

49:11

and what Dane Lynn Owens have been saying. Does it?

49:13

If you look at the the noises they've made since

49:15

they've been commissioner, they've said there's gonna be no

49:17

stone left unturned. They're not afraid of upsetting

49:19

the Apple cards. Well, today

49:21

does mark a slight shift from that because it's the first

49:23

time we've really seen some Mark growley distance

49:26

himself from a very clear finding. Into

49:28

that report. And actually, the the main finding,

49:30

the Metropolitan Police branded institutionally racist

49:33

in the late nineties, branded the same

49:35

again largely and, you know, institutionally

49:38

sexist and and many other things by Baron

49:40

SKC. And I think Samar Broley,

49:43

changing his tune on that. We're not changing

49:45

team, but but refusing to engage

49:47

in the way I thought he would, I did think was

49:49

surprising. You look at some of the big racial

49:52

reports we've had in the UK. We have the whammy

49:54

reports, which covered the experiences

49:56

of black and ethnic minority people in

49:58

the UK with a with a huge emphasis on

50:00

policing, of course. And, you know,

50:02

we've had that report We had the Sewell

50:05

reports that came out, think it was two

50:07

years ago now, which which almost went slightly

50:09

the other way and played down that. You do

50:11

get the sense of are the police almost trying

50:13

to balance the two reports and the

50:15

top brass of the met trying to balance the two reports.

50:18

I don't know, but I I found Samark's

50:20

reluctance to fully accept the

50:22

institutional racism, which we knew or

50:24

we were pretty sure would be a a key tenant

50:27

off the report today. I

50:29

found that surprising

50:30

I know perhaps maybe maybe more surprising

50:32

than it was to you. But I found that

50:35

surprising and and extremely worrying I have

50:37

to

50:37

say. When I do too, but then

50:39

look at his makeup is

50:41

a white male. He's not

50:43

going to experience racism. That's

50:46

a fact. And when we look

50:48

at the Metz makeup, what,

50:50

eighty two percent of the officers are

50:52

white, seventy one percent male.

50:55

That doesn't reflect the London that they

50:57

please because most of them from outside London

50:59

and that to me is really important. Twenty

51:02

nine percent of offices are female they're

51:04

the ones that are gonna experience it and you talk

51:06

to the ethnic minorities

51:09

and listen to what they have to say and they will

51:11

all have a story. It's the same

51:13

when I first came to LA. One of my friends

51:16

told me a black guy, very talented

51:18

musician, was on his

51:20

way to his music studio, armed

51:23

LAPD officers shouted

51:25

him out, told him to get on the ground at

51:28

gunpoint, and he told

51:30

me this story of what happened

51:32

and I was shocked. And I

51:34

tell you what else, that will never happen to

51:36

me. And so we can't

51:38

say that things don't happen

51:40

because we don't experience it. And I'm

51:42

deeply disappointed by some

51:45

art rowley's comment because

51:47

it's not for him to decide It's

51:50

been recommended and reviewed,

51:52

and the finding is baroness

51:54

Louise Casey's. It's not for him to say

51:57

I don't accept the institutional part.

52:00

The point is that we keep

52:02

using the Apple analogy, the few bad

52:04

apples or upset the Apple cart,

52:06

but if the barrel is rotten from the

52:08

inside and you've been in that

52:10

barrel for a long enough time, you're not going

52:13

to see the wood through the trees. And

52:15

so I think it's really important to listen

52:18

to the experiences of those

52:20

who have taken their time

52:22

and spoken out to

52:24

say what their experience is.

52:27

And the fact that it would misconduct about

52:30

fifty five to sixty percent of cases

52:32

result in no case to answer That

52:34

is shocking. Sixty percent.

52:36

How can that be? Because it takes

52:39

a lot for someone to report

52:41

something. Like with me,

52:43

it took a lot to get to that place.

52:45

And when we know that twenty percent

52:47

of serial perpetrators at least twenty

52:50

percent but less than one percent are dismissed.

52:53

That is shocking. And the fact

52:55

that even with employment tribunals, twenty

52:58

nine percent days, tribunals

53:00

are women. Well, women

53:03

are overrepresented in

53:05

tribunals when we look at the population

53:08

of women that make up the the staff.

53:10

So it tells you and

53:12

I was somebody who so Mark Rowley, when

53:14

he first came into the met, heard

53:17

asked when I go and speak to him and tell

53:19

him about the met, and

53:21

lots of officers when they come into the

53:23

met might ask you to do that. maybe

53:26

he goes from that experience of what you're

53:28

told, but I have to say as a junior officer,

53:30

I'm not gonna roll up into someone's office

53:33

who I don't even know and share with them.

53:35

My experiences and my deepest, darkest

53:37

secrets and things that that matter.

53:40

And don't believe any other officer

53:42

or member of staff would. So if he's going

53:44

on the basis of that of what he's been told

53:46

and his own experiences were then he's out of

53:48

touch and disconnected. And that's

53:50

even more worrying because Baroness Casey

53:53

puts her faith in him and

53:55

Dane Lynn Owens, the the two

53:58

new leaders of the mayor will create change.

54:00

But I know from working in the organization,

54:03

It doesn't come from two leaders. It

54:05

has to be bottom up, top down, and across.

54:08

You have to have accountability at every level

54:10

and you have to have everyone on board. And

54:12

that just doesn't happen in the mayor. It's too

54:14

big. It's too sprawling. There's

54:17

not accountability. There's not transparency. There's

54:19

this constant initiative ITUS,

54:21

as Baroness Louise Casey called

54:24

it, you know, where things

54:26

come down from on top for

54:28

frontline and others to do, and it's just

54:30

totally disconnected and and not joined

54:33

up. So, you know, I think the

54:35

fact that he's come out and said and

54:37

queried whether it's institutionalized is

54:40

now another major barrier to

54:42

having trust and confidence and seeing

54:45

anything change. And I just wonder

54:47

how many passes do you get? How many

54:49

you failed? You keep failing in public

54:52

protection. You're failing women, you're failing people

54:54

of London, your racist, your

54:56

sexist, your misogynist, how many passes

54:58

should the mayor actually get?

55:00

Well, quite and I think, you know, one thing

55:02

that will be to be particularly interesting in the coming

55:05

days is who sort of decides to

55:07

speak out from an ex senior leadership

55:09

point of view. I mean, we've seen in some of interventions

55:12

of Neil Bassou, I think, a good example who

55:15

was at an extremely high level

55:17

in the meds. And there's been extremely I

55:19

mean, at one point, almost I think it was three years

55:21

ago. This this man was tipped to be the next commissioner

55:23

of the force. And now he's no longer in the force.

55:26

He's been so kind that I believe to somewhere

55:28

else, I think the College of Leasing.

55:31

And so I think the interventions

55:34

of people like Neil Bassi will be particularly

55:36

interesting because he very rarely intervenes

55:38

on these big issues. I know. I think he did a channel four

55:40

interview last year where he was scathing of the

55:42

Nets and did indeed reference

55:45

in his view that there was institutional racism

55:47

in it. Well, that would be particularly stark.

55:49

And I I think a lot of it does come down

55:51

to representation, which you spoke

55:53

about earlier, the face of the met is

55:56

still white. It's still,

55:58

you know, you you referenced earlier about police

56:00

officers urging women to flag

56:03

down buses in in wake of Sierra Everard

56:05

That advice was given by a male

56:07

officer in the force in Nick Efgrave

56:09

when it was probably a slip of the tongue, but nonetheless

56:12

it was something he said. And the

56:14

the source of optic I find strange

56:16

that they would think it would be a good idea to put

56:18

someone like. However, skilled Nick F

56:20

graves is out into the media when

56:22

there was clearly concerns about the forces.

56:25

Dealings with and interaction

56:27

with and an actual overattitude to

56:29

women. It seems like the sort of imaging

56:32

problem has not been addressed by

56:34

the force It has a new leadership. I

56:36

don't know how much the the internal structure of

56:38

the metz have changed. The the press team, the

56:40

communications team, the the actual staff in

56:42

New Scotland yard I suggest not an awful

56:44

lot, I would imagine. Yeah.

56:46

It it does feel, you know, you you say how many

56:49

passes do do the met get. Well, certainly

56:51

from a media point of view, it will be every

56:54

time we hear about, every time we investigate,

56:56

every time we are tipped off. In

56:59

many ways about a particular story, we

57:01

will run with it because these issues deserve

57:03

to be spoken about. Baroness

57:06

Casey in her report cannot cover

57:08

every single stone. There are still things which I imagine

57:11

you were reading Laura and thought all they could

57:13

have included this. Even though every line of the

57:15

three hundred and sixty pages was extremely

57:17

well thought out and extremely relevant. There there's

57:19

still even more to be said incredibly despite

57:22

three hundred and sixty words a page

57:24

report. And so I do think the conversation

57:26

politically now will move, and we source

57:29

Akastama giving a press conference this afternoon.

57:31

I mean, when the leader of the opposition is

57:33

giving a press conference, solely

57:35

about the Metropolitan police. That

57:37

surely shows that that there is a huge

57:39

issue here. He has called a press conference because

57:42

And I'm not accusing Skistana of being of

57:44

playing politics here. You know, that's what you have

57:46

to do as a politician. You have to look at what the big talking

57:48

point is and the Metropolitan Police has become

57:50

such a big talking point that now,

57:52

Rishi Sunak, at Prime Minister's questions,

57:55

you would imagine will be asked about this. The

57:57

conversation now moves as to how we do break up

57:59

the met. And I I've spoken

58:01

with officers who have said that

58:04

just two things, actually, what officers have spoken

58:06

about, breaking off that terra elements

58:09

to the met. I mean, the sort of attitudes of

58:11

some of the particular units in the met is

58:13

a problem in the knob itself, but actually the sheer

58:15

scale of what the met has to do. It clearly

58:17

is challenging for any police force.

58:20

It was given to the mayor. It had it's with the mayor

58:22

for historical reasons. I I totally appreciate and

58:24

it's been with that force for many years. Do

58:26

we need to look at breaking that out and actually

58:29

the Metz or rebranded force

58:31

gets its basics right? And

58:33

actually something you referenced earlier, Laura,

58:35

was with regards to how we change

58:37

that culture and how when you're invited

58:40

to speak with Samark Rolly, it's difficult because

58:42

it's personal information you have to you.

58:44

Samark Rolly is an extremely whether

58:46

he means to be or not. You know, he he's an intimidating

58:48

figure. He's the commissioner of the mayor. He's a he's a huge

58:51

deal. And and one female officer who I spoke

58:53

with from the mayor who hasn't been off

58:55

so that long, she's been off so for about ten years,

58:57

said to me anonymously that actually

59:00

one thing she was very keen on and had raised

59:02

was having an anonymous complaints

59:04

procedure whereby she can

59:07

highlights because she felt that

59:09

actually if officer x was

59:11

misogynistic to her or put his

59:13

hand on her leg or whatever, she

59:16

would feel uncomfortable reporting it because officer

59:18

Rex is a high rank than her. Was if she

59:20

could anonymously say to

59:22

perhaps the Bara commander or whoever a dedicated

59:25

officer, I don't wanna go on the record because I

59:27

don't wanna reveal myself, but I and number

59:29

of my colleagues have concerns with officer X.

59:31

That's a way that she felt many

59:33

officers would be comfortable and would be a way to

59:36

root out people because you have

59:38

officers who who don't feel like they're they're risking

59:40

their career. They want to be police officers. They want

59:42

to stay in the job because they want to do a good job.

59:44

Felt that would be an important step. And I I'm not

59:46

saying that's the answer. I think it may be an

59:48

interesting thing to explore

59:50

though. Yes. And when I spoke to him, he

59:52

wasn't the commissioner. This was going back

59:54

you know, in time where various

59:56

people were chosen at random to

59:58

give him the lowdown on what he needs

1:00:01

to know about the met. Anonymity might

1:00:03

be something that is useful

1:00:06

because it is career limiting. If

1:00:08

you speak out is career limiting, so you'll

1:00:10

start between a a rock and a hard place, and that's

1:00:12

why you've got disproportionate amount

1:00:14

of women, e t's, employment tribe

1:00:16

units because there's nowhere to go with

1:00:18

grievance. There's genuinely nowhere to

1:00:21

go. Massage and sexism is seen as

1:00:23

something you have to deal with, and

1:00:25

that should never be the case. And

1:00:27

certainly not now. And of course, it does

1:00:29

connect too violence and

1:00:31

abuse of women, and that's what people

1:00:34

misunderstand or don't

1:00:36

make those links for whatever reasons. And

1:00:39

of course, this is in Louise Casey's report. She

1:00:41

doesn't really get into performance of

1:00:43

we're not even talking about how the mayor

1:00:45

does in terms of arrests prosecutions

1:00:48

and convictions and playing their part in each

1:00:50

of these key areas of of policing.

1:00:53

And what I do know from public protection

1:00:55

and her majesty's inspector is an the

1:00:57

mayor has been failing. And having been

1:00:59

the the best practice ever, I wrote

1:01:01

the book policing domestic violence with two

1:01:04

mayor police officers for all for university

1:01:06

presses Blackstone's policing guide. We

1:01:08

were at the top of our game and

1:01:10

slowly it's all been unraveled

1:01:13

and that is a very sad state of

1:01:15

affairs, but you have to

1:01:18

move with the times and you can't

1:01:20

keep saying, well, we've always done terrorism

1:01:23

and therefore it's going to stay within the

1:01:25

met or we've always done, you know,

1:01:27

firearms and therefore that will stay within the

1:01:29

met. I believe that it does need to

1:01:31

be broken up. It is time for change.

1:01:34

And you almost feel disloyal saying

1:01:36

that, and I'm sure anyone who's worked in the will

1:01:38

feel the same way, but really

1:01:41

serious repercussions and consequences and

1:01:43

actions are required to

1:01:46

not just rebrand the met, but

1:01:48

to actually create root and branch

1:01:50

change. And I just can't see it

1:01:52

happening particularly given

1:01:54

the action plan and Mark

1:01:56

Rowley's comments in light

1:01:59

of the review, that defensiveness that

1:02:01

is also part of the culture. And

1:02:03

Louise Casey also talked about that, that

1:02:05

as each of these cases have been exposed

1:02:08

in the media from Karen, and his

1:02:10

a t plus sexual abuse

1:02:12

acts towards women forty seven of them

1:02:14

raped. A career of seventeen years,

1:02:17

nine complaints Even whilst he

1:02:19

was being vetted, there were two domestic

1:02:21

violence allegations and he's still got in.

1:02:24

You know, as each of these horrific cases

1:02:26

have been revealed, Louise

1:02:28

case, he talks about the defensiveness, the

1:02:31

denial, the obfuscation, the

1:02:33

positive spin, And the bet

1:02:35

is there are champions at positive

1:02:38

spin. Making something that's an

1:02:40

object failure sound positive, and we

1:02:42

see that with every murder review where

1:02:44

lessons to be learned, it's

1:02:46

rolled out as we're sorry and there are lessons

1:02:48

to be learned here, but these lessons are not

1:02:50

being learned. So I

1:02:53

just don't have the the

1:02:55

faith and the optimism that

1:02:57

this is going to create that roots and branch

1:02:59

change without actually taking

1:03:01

apart the met, the

1:03:03

barrel, and starting again. And

1:03:06

I think when we think about Henry

1:03:08

also, Nicola Bouley's case. I'm gonna give

1:03:11

a slightly different context. You know,

1:03:13

the reason why the country

1:03:15

took such an interest and women in particular

1:03:18

is because when women go missing, the

1:03:20

police have not got a good history of

1:03:22

prioritizing those cases. And when Nicola

1:03:25

went miss you had all these very peculiar

1:03:27

circumstances and yet you had officers

1:03:29

saying there's no crime. Nothing to

1:03:32

see here. And no third

1:03:34

party involvement. And she's

1:03:36

probably gone in the water without

1:03:38

having even completed an investigation

1:03:41

and looking at the CCTV, and this is

1:03:43

in the wake of Sarah Everett and

1:03:45

all the cases that we've discussed. This has

1:03:47

a knock on impact on the

1:03:49

rest of the country and how do

1:03:51

we trust the police, particularly

1:03:54

if they're not going to accept the findings

1:03:57

of an independent reviewer like Baroness

1:03:59

Louise Casey that that is

1:04:01

also the

1:04:02

issue. Here, present day, Yeah.

1:04:05

No. Totally. And, you know, that's an interesting

1:04:07

point regarding Nicola Blue because I do think a lot

1:04:09

of people got that sense today. It really sort of galvanized

1:04:12

people didn't hit that particular case in looking

1:04:14

at And I think it actually had

1:04:16

such a detrimental effect and it was something we covered

1:04:18

a lot in LBC that that instant

1:04:21

dismissal of woman who'd

1:04:23

gone missing actually led to conspiracies

1:04:26

and led to people believing and

1:04:28

actually not believing creating the

1:04:30

most appalling conspiracies and

1:04:33

that you sense wouldn't have happened, Laura.

1:04:35

If it wasn't for the instant

1:04:38

dismissal from the police at

1:04:40

the start. And so, you know,

1:04:42

that that actually ended up having such a detrimental

1:04:44

impact. It was so detrimental for the family.

1:04:47

I imagine it was detrimental for the investigation of

1:04:49

the case. It's detrimental regarding Lancashire

1:04:51

police reputation now and actually the police's

1:04:54

reputation And actually, just a reference

1:04:56

on something else you said Laura about. Looking at this

1:04:58

idea of the myths being broken up and the structure

1:05:00

of the myths, and you said it's you know, it's it's difficult

1:05:02

for you to say somebody who who's worked at the organization

1:05:05

to then advocate it being broken

1:05:07

up is actually the forces

1:05:09

that would require it to be broken up. Are

1:05:11

just not politically there, which I think is particularly

1:05:14

interesting. Because you it's a Keirstyle referencing it

1:05:16

today. Rishi Sunak has given an

1:05:18

interview, but he he it certainly hasn't been

1:05:20

the top of his entree today. The

1:05:22

two main, of course, political figures that deal

1:05:24

with police are Sadiq Khan, who's been out today

1:05:27

giving interviews, saying what he's been

1:05:29

saying for a while and and, you know, in

1:05:31

many ways, what has been laid out today

1:05:34

is is what he's been saying for for a number

1:05:36

of years. But actually, we've got a home secretary

1:05:38

whose main priority, Laura, is clearly

1:05:41

not pleasing. It's clearly small boats crossings

1:05:43

and it's clearly immigration. And

1:05:46

she has spent the last few days in

1:05:48

Rwanda, and I'm not here to cast dispersions

1:05:51

on that particular policy. However,

1:05:53

I do think it's intriguing that That

1:05:55

particular policy requires such

1:05:57

attention from the home secretary that she's gone to Rwanda,

1:06:00

and yet it was the transport secretary.

1:06:02

Mark Harper who was on the broadcast round for

1:06:04

the government today. Now I have

1:06:06

no doubt that it's important that the RMT have

1:06:08

struck a deal with network rail and that there is a there

1:06:11

is a resolution to one of those disputes. That

1:06:13

is important. It's important to people.

1:06:15

However, on the day of the

1:06:17

biggest report into policing perhaps

1:06:19

since McPherson or certainly one of

1:06:21

The home secretary is not on the morning round

1:06:24

talking about this particular report.

1:06:26

I find that astonishing. There

1:06:28

is a sense that the home office too big at the

1:06:30

moment. There is a sense that the home office is too much

1:06:32

to deal with. You look at everything from

1:06:35

the DBSA and the passport office

1:06:38

seemingly incapable of processing

1:06:41

people's passport renewals in time for

1:06:43

holiday. You look at what the government

1:06:45

sees as a key issue of of the small boats crossing.

1:06:48

You look at various reports into not just

1:06:50

the met, but policing across across

1:06:52

country the remit of the home secretary

1:06:55

is so big. There actually seems to

1:06:57

be a sense that we can't even speak about breaking up

1:06:59

the police at first. Before we speak

1:07:01

about a home office that perhaps should be broken up

1:07:04

first because it's policing is

1:07:06

not high enough off the agenda for the home

1:07:08

secretary or indeed the home

1:07:09

office. Yes.

1:07:10

Well, it was high up the agenda when it came down

1:07:12

to cutting the numbers, which, of course,

1:07:14

have had a huge impact on policing. And

1:07:17

I guess this goes back to something my detective

1:07:19

chief superintendent used to say, which is

1:07:21

busy, but are you busy with the right

1:07:23

things? What are the priorities?

1:07:25

And I think it still comes back to that in

1:07:28

both places, policing and the

1:07:30

home office. What is the priority? If

1:07:32

it's not pleasing, And it is pleasing

1:07:35

across the UK. We're not just talking

1:07:37

about the met in terms of the reputation in

1:07:39

pieces. Our IP is as I

1:07:41

used to call it, your reputations and pieces

1:07:43

all across the country. That's why Nicola

1:07:45

Bully. That's why everyone

1:07:47

paid that interest. It couldn't be

1:07:49

trusted just what the police were telling us. They

1:07:51

weren't giving us information to back up

1:07:54

what they were saying. And then or

1:07:56

because women have been treated so badly,

1:07:58

how could we just agree that there

1:08:00

was no crime when her phone was found

1:08:02

still connected to a work call? And

1:08:04

she had been so actively involved in her life.

1:08:07

And that crisis of confidence is

1:08:09

something that is not going to go away.

1:08:11

And it's not gonna go away quickly, certainly

1:08:13

not for women, not from the women that

1:08:16

I hear and who call the police

1:08:18

for assistance because unfortunately women

1:08:20

will stop calling and then what happens?

1:08:23

We have to be doing much more listening

1:08:25

to women specifically and I get

1:08:27

back to even Lord Lamings. Victoria

1:08:30

Colmier, review who said

1:08:32

do the basics well and the rest will follow.

1:08:35

We're not even talking about policing doing the basics

1:08:37

well. The basics, the core

1:08:39

fundamentals, the policing principles,

1:08:42

are not being followed. And there's no

1:08:44

accountability when they're not

1:08:46

upholding the law. And that is

1:08:48

the biggest crisis in confidence that

1:08:51

we're currently facing. And I can't

1:08:53

see that there is an easy fix when

1:08:55

it comes to attitude, an

1:08:57

aptitude, and the priorities

1:09:00

you know, if we can't get the priorities right.

1:09:02

So Mark Rowley, Dane

1:09:04

Lynn owns, you know, all of those that are gonna

1:09:06

be charged with creating the change

1:09:08

and how they make that visible and how

1:09:10

it's transparent. How do you measure it?

1:09:13

Because the police are notorious for having

1:09:15

these pilots that they never

1:09:17

even have academics review

1:09:20

or they create change and there's no

1:09:22

barometer to tell you whether it improve

1:09:24

things. Whether things got better. And

1:09:27

what then happens is someone gets promoted

1:09:30

for creating this new Wacadesi idea

1:09:32

or an off day go and somebody else

1:09:34

is left to pick up the pieces. And then they come up

1:09:36

with another I new idea.

1:09:39

They get promoted and so on it goes.

1:09:41

And there needs to be some long term

1:09:43

thinking here and the long term accountability. And

1:09:47

I just don't know whether it's here

1:09:49

and whether we're going to see it. So

1:09:51

It is for the media to keep holding

1:09:54

their feet to the fire. And

1:09:56

that was one thing my old boss always used

1:09:58

to say to me. Accountability is about holding

1:10:00

people's feet to the fire and

1:10:02

yet we've seen very little and

1:10:04

sometimes you have to just listen and

1:10:07

accept what you're being told. And I think

1:10:09

Mark Rowley would do well to remember

1:10:11

that. The this review has come at great

1:10:13

cost and it was commissioner Cressida Dick,

1:10:16

who I know, who asked for

1:10:18

this review to be carried out. So

1:10:20

I just don't want to see it become a missed

1:10:22

opportunity but who are the people

1:10:25

who will continue to hold their feet

1:10:27

to the fire and UK policing.

1:10:29

Every police force must be accountable. Every

1:10:32

chief constable officer

1:10:35

holding a warrant card is accountable

1:10:37

and they have to be and they if they break the

1:10:39

law, they've gotta go. It's as

1:10:41

simple as that. In my

1:10:43

view, perhaps not in other peoples,

1:10:45

but it should be that

1:10:47

simple. Yeah. And I think that's a

1:10:49

really important point about the media heaping

1:10:52

the it's relevant in the sense

1:10:54

of keeping it in the public domain because, you

1:10:56

know, there will be whether the home

1:10:58

secretary wants to speak about it now or whether the

1:11:00

prime minister wants speak about it now.

1:11:03

There will be interviews in the future,

1:11:05

and I think it is incumbent on the media to

1:11:07

make sure that this is something that is constantly

1:11:10

pressed on. The only I mean, Samark

1:11:12

Rowley and Damien Owens have made such

1:11:15

in some ways ambitious, pledges, but nonetheless,

1:11:17

some of the promises they have made are

1:11:20

well documented in the political arena. And

1:11:22

if they if they do not keep those promises

1:11:24

and if they fall short, in some

1:11:26

ways, then the political pressure

1:11:29

will be immense. I mean, I I'm not a polling expert,

1:11:31

but I do look at the front pages today of the

1:11:33

newspapers, and I look at the front pages of

1:11:35

upside and Twitter. And you do get

1:11:37

the sense that there is a shift

1:11:40

in public consciousness on this now.

1:11:42

And actually, it's what people want to hear cabinet

1:11:44

minutes is being asked about. And when cabinet

1:11:46

ministers get constantly asked and

1:11:48

when Kersana gets constantly asked and when the

1:11:51

prime minister and whoever it is in the cabinet,

1:11:53

down to junior ministers get constantly asked

1:11:55

about specific issues, whether that's

1:11:57

the myth or whatever it is,

1:11:59

that is where you see the most action. And so I

1:12:01

do think the political pressure of this will

1:12:04

be interesting because war ministering law

1:12:06

is in three months time if we look at it and it's

1:12:08

it's fallen off the agenda. Or whether

1:12:10

it's still being asked, and then who

1:12:12

knows what what will happen? But politicians are,

1:12:15

in some ways, interesting beasts, because nothing

1:12:17

is more important than their political career.

1:12:19

And so they won't let the Nets get

1:12:22

away with this as it were. If it's gonna hamper

1:12:24

their career and hamper their goals, you know, we we keep

1:12:26

the only time we seem to hear about the police is with

1:12:28

regards to restoring those police officers

1:12:30

that ended up being cut under

1:12:32

austerity. Well, I think there are bigger questions

1:12:34

for politics decisions to be asked about now, and they certainly

1:12:36

will be asked. There absolutely are,

1:12:39

and the police notoriously work

1:12:41

on the basis of the next disaster will

1:12:43

happen and therefore this one will be swept

1:12:45

under the carpet and that's what's happened

1:12:47

historically and so I want to

1:12:49

ensure that that doesn't happen And for

1:12:51

the leaders, as I was trained,

1:12:54

you have have leadership and followership. You

1:12:56

have to have the staff wanting to go

1:12:58

with you. Right? You can have the best leader

1:13:00

at the top who ticks all the boxes on paper

1:13:03

and Danely knowns is is one of them

1:13:05

and are the staff going to follow?

1:13:08

Because a lot of them, there's this subversive

1:13:11

culture going on and unless you get into

1:13:13

that, then it can be very superficial

1:13:16

and nothing really changes. And it does

1:13:18

have to link to performance. You

1:13:20

know, how many bad apples serial

1:13:22

perpetrators within the police? Are they rooting

1:13:24

out? What are the numbers? Also,

1:13:26

how many domestic violence perpetrators are

1:13:29

being identified, targeted,

1:13:31

arrested, prosecuted, convicted,

1:13:34

How many sex offenders? You know, it has

1:13:36

to link through to performance, and that's when

1:13:38

trust and confidence will start to increase

1:13:40

when women are being listened to and

1:13:42

being bleed when children are being protected,

1:13:44

when the things that Londoners want

1:13:46

to have happen a scene within

1:13:49

a policing plan rather than the police thinking

1:13:51

they're superior and they don't have to

1:13:53

listen to the people of London and

1:13:55

in all police forces. They have to listen

1:13:57

to the people of that they serve

1:13:59

to serve and protect, but there has to be that

1:14:01

accountability So we'll

1:14:03

see what happens. And you can probably

1:14:06

tell I'm not holding my breath and it

1:14:08

does take everyone to speak out.

1:14:10

It does take everybody And

1:14:12

I think that's a very important point. And

1:14:15

why I shared what I did with you, Henry,

1:14:17

is because I believe that people

1:14:19

like me should be sharing their experience.

1:14:21

So that it's not just the few where you can

1:14:23

say, oh, it's just a few over here or a

1:14:25

few over there. I think you'll be

1:14:27

hard push to find any woman

1:14:30

or any person of color who's

1:14:32

worked within the met who or who's come into

1:14:34

contact with them who have

1:14:36

not had a negative experience

1:14:39

you know, and there are people who've not had contact

1:14:41

with the police. And what we know about that is their

1:14:44

perception of the police tends to be

1:14:46

okay. Until they have contact

1:14:49

with the police, and then it falls

1:14:51

disastrously. So when you've

1:14:53

got people saying they don't trust the police and

1:14:55

there's a large percentage of women more

1:14:57

than half saying that they don't. That

1:15:00

has to change and how are they going to make

1:15:02

that change? Well, We see.

1:15:05

We see what happens in the future. So

1:15:07

I thank you for your

1:15:09

investigation of looking at that

1:15:11

accountability, the following up because that

1:15:13

is important. We've talked about far more

1:15:16

about the broader context because that's

1:15:18

important too. And I thank you

1:15:21

for your for your thoughts. I'm sure we'll have other

1:15:23

conversations in the future. But is there anything

1:15:25

else you haven't shared that you want to

1:15:27

share with my listeners or or with me

1:15:29

that we haven't discussed?

1:15:31

Not really in the sense that I and I

1:15:33

I think this was a certain certainly an

1:15:35

eye opener just to go full circle. Back to

1:15:37

the to the start with with regards to

1:15:39

this particular officer. It certainly was an eye

1:15:41

opener. It's opened a can

1:15:43

of worms in the sense that when

1:15:46

you are reporting on particular

1:15:48

story such as that, you then

1:15:50

have follow ups from people who

1:15:52

who tell you things because you've reported

1:15:55

this story and it it does seem to spiral.

1:15:57

So the hope is, these instances

1:15:59

will be brought further into the lights

1:16:01

and not all of them public. You know, this was this was

1:16:03

like you say, Laura, this is an example of something

1:16:05

that was reported at the time. It

1:16:07

just happened that we followed up and we got

1:16:10

the the right information that this was happening,

1:16:12

not all of these things are reported, as you

1:16:14

well know. So sort of getting

1:16:16

our hands and getting stuck

1:16:19

into some of those stories that

1:16:21

aren't in the public domain, that Baroness

1:16:23

Casey doesn't have the time to include

1:16:25

as part of a a review that

1:16:27

go unnoticed that are perhaps

1:16:30

seen as as not a significant some

1:16:32

of the real headlines from pages we've seen

1:16:35

are just as important. And so I,

1:16:37

you know, the hope is that there

1:16:39

will be more stories such as this the

1:16:41

hope is that we'll get to point where they

1:16:43

become so rare that but I I, you know,

1:16:45

you know, you're certainly not holding your breath lower in the

1:16:47

near future. That was that was clear. But

1:16:49

hopefully, we get a point where there is an element

1:16:52

of trust there and we get back to the police force

1:16:54

that or get to a police force where we

1:16:56

we encourage the right people to go in

1:16:59

and that does a good

1:16:59

job, but we are clearly some way off according

1:17:01

to Baroness Casey today. And it's being

1:17:04

seen as as a privilege to protect

1:17:06

and serve. I've always said it across my twenty

1:17:08

seven years helping victims is

1:17:11

one of the greatest honor and privileges. Others

1:17:14

should see it like that too just to go back

1:17:16

to one of the things that you opened

1:17:18

this conversation with. And

1:17:21

when we think about the indecent

1:17:23

exposures, when we think about things that are seen as

1:17:25

traditionally nuisance things, that

1:17:28

women are conditioned to just see

1:17:30

that as things that you just have to

1:17:32

deal with and no women or girls

1:17:35

should have to deal with in decent exposure

1:17:37

being flash. And like I said, it is a gateway

1:17:40

to other more deviant

1:17:42

sexual behavior. And

1:17:44

whether that's something that's known or whether that

1:17:47

goes on behind closed doors, that

1:17:49

doesn't mean to say it's not happening. We

1:17:51

only know what's reported and David

1:17:53

Carrick came to light incidentally because

1:17:56

of one of the victims listening

1:17:58

to Sarah Everard mother give her impact

1:18:01

statement a call. And

1:18:03

hearing about the brutality and

1:18:05

her mom saying, you know, her final

1:18:07

when she realized she was in danger, it must have

1:18:10

just been the most horrific thing to know

1:18:12

she's immortal danger in her her

1:18:14

final minutes on the planet. And

1:18:16

it connected with a woman who then reported

1:18:19

Carrick. And of course, there had

1:18:21

been many other allegations. But

1:18:23

oftentimes, women don't share things that

1:18:25

have happened because it's just part and parcel

1:18:28

of the everyday chisel that we

1:18:30

have to deal with, and that's why with

1:18:32

Sarah the outpouring of

1:18:34

anger and grief of women sharing, their

1:18:36

experience of just walking down the street

1:18:38

and something happening. And and let's

1:18:41

not forget the police and crime commissioner, Alec,

1:18:43

from Northy Yorkshire, who said afterwards that

1:18:46

women should become more street wise

1:18:48

and should challenge if they're going to be arrested.

1:18:50

I mean, the the mental gymnastics that

1:18:53

people go through even in high office

1:18:55

to victim blame and

1:18:58

put the onus on women when

1:19:00

the onus has to be back on those

1:19:02

perpetrators who are abusing

1:19:04

women and who are causing the harm and causing

1:19:07

problems, and that's really what the Metz

1:19:09

energy should be invested

1:19:11

in doing, in finding those

1:19:14

people, rooting them out within their own organization,

1:19:16

but also outside of the organization.

1:19:19

That's what people trust the police to

1:19:21

be doing, but they have not been busy doing

1:19:23

that. They've been doing other things.

1:19:25

And as Baroness Casey said, a lot of it comes

1:19:27

down to self interest. They've been doing

1:19:29

things to help themselves, not

1:19:31

to help the people of London, and that

1:19:33

has to be addressed. So

1:19:36

There are so many things within that report. As

1:19:38

I said, there's not one sentence

1:19:40

that's wasted, but it is

1:19:42

alarming And as I said, it didn't

1:19:44

it doesn't link through to performance, and that

1:19:46

is important understand that

1:19:48

when they're busy doing all these other terrible

1:19:51

things. They ain't policing in London. They

1:19:53

are not doing what they should be doing because they wouldn't

1:19:55

have time to be doing that and focused on

1:19:57

the job. So I want them to

1:20:00

get back to core business. I want the good officers

1:20:02

to rise to the top and to be rewarded,

1:20:04

but that's not what the system looks like.

1:20:07

Right now, which is why it does need to

1:20:09

be dismantled in my opinion and

1:20:11

you start again. But, you

1:20:13

know, I'm a measured person I'm sure

1:20:15

Baroness Casey thinks would do these sixteen

1:20:17

things, give them a chance, give

1:20:19

the lead as a chance, give a new scrutiny

1:20:22

panel a chance, but she

1:20:24

did say she doesn't wanna be dragged

1:20:26

back in twenty years, which indicates

1:20:28

to me that that's on her mind

1:20:30

too, that that could very well happen.

1:20:33

So thank you very much, Henry. We've

1:20:35

talked a lot and I appreciate your

1:20:38

work and holding the met and

1:20:40

others their feet to the

1:20:41

fire. So thank you so much for talking to

1:20:43

me. Thank you, Laura.

1:20:46

I'm jumping in here. What did you make

1:20:48

of our discussion? There's

1:20:50

a lot to process, isn't there in terms

1:20:52

of the cases and also in terms of Baroness

1:20:55

Casey's report and Sarah Everard

1:20:57

murder. There's a lot for me

1:20:59

to process too. Authentic

1:21:01

and uncomfortable conversations are hard.

1:21:04

I find them hard as well. But

1:21:06

the one thing I don't want to have happen here

1:21:08

is that we lose sight of Sarah in all

1:21:10

of this. She deserves to be honored

1:21:13

and remembered. And I want to share with

1:21:15

you what Lord Justice Farfetch said on

1:21:17

sentencing Wayne Cousins. He

1:21:19

told Cousins that his crimes had damaged

1:21:22

the victim's loved ones and wider society,

1:21:24

shattering the Everard family, eroding

1:21:26

faith in the police, betraying his

1:21:29

wife and two children, and stoking

1:21:31

the fear women felt. You

1:21:33

have very considerably added to the sense

1:21:35

of insecurity that many have

1:21:37

living in our cities perhaps particularly

1:21:40

women when traveling by themselves and

1:21:42

especially at night, he said. Judge

1:21:45

Crawford told him that it was the abuse

1:21:47

of his position to commit his crimes

1:21:49

that was the worst part and that the court

1:21:51

would treat it as seriously as a murder carried

1:21:54

out for a terrorist motive. I

1:21:56

have not the slightest doubt that the defendant

1:21:58

used his position as a police officer to

1:22:00

coerce Sarah on a holy force pretext

1:22:03

into the car he had hired for this purpose.

1:22:05

It is most likely that he suggested to

1:22:08

Sarah that she had breached the restrictions

1:22:10

on movement that were being enforced during that

1:22:12

stage of the pandemic, he said. Sara

1:22:15

Everard was a holy blameless victim

1:22:17

of a grotesquely executed series

1:22:19

of offenses that culminated in

1:22:21

her death and the disposal of her body.

1:22:24

The judge said cousin spent a month traveling

1:22:26

to London to research how best to commit

1:22:28

his crimes and brought items to

1:22:30

use ahead of time And although cousins

1:22:33

pleaded guilty to his crimes, judge

1:22:35

forfeords said that he showed no genuine

1:22:38

contrition. There was significant

1:22:40

planning and premeditation. The victim

1:22:42

was abducted. There was the most serious

1:22:44

sexual conduct. The defendant was

1:22:46

responsible for significant mental and physical

1:22:49

suffering, which he inflicted on

1:22:51

the victim before her death. And the

1:22:53

defendant concealed and attempted

1:22:55

to destroy Sarah Everard body

1:22:57

Lord justice Farfetch said. I

1:23:00

also want to share with you what Sarah's

1:23:02

mother, Susan Everett, told the court in

1:23:04

her victim impact statement. She

1:23:07

said, there is no comfort to

1:23:09

be had. There is no consoling

1:23:11

thought in the way Sarah died. In

1:23:13

her last hours, she was faced with brutality

1:23:16

and terror, alone with someone intent

1:23:18

on doing her harm. The thought

1:23:20

of it is unbearable. I'm

1:23:23

haunted by the horror of it. I'm

1:23:25

reposed by the thought of what he did to

1:23:27

Sarah. I'm outraged that

1:23:29

he masqueraded as a policeman in

1:23:31

order to get what he wanted. I

1:23:35

want to end with a final thought and reflection

1:23:37

about Sarah's case the impact

1:23:39

of all these scandals, and whether the met

1:23:41

can change. Law justice

1:23:44

forfeited said the police are in a unique

1:23:46

position, which is a essentially different from any

1:23:48

other public servants. They

1:23:50

have powers of coercion and control that are in

1:23:52

an exceptional category. He

1:23:55

said police were expected to use these

1:23:57

powers in the public interest and anything

1:23:59

less risk trust in law and order.

1:24:02

If that is undermined, one of the enduring

1:24:04

safeguards of law and order in this country

1:24:06

is inevitably jeopardized. And

1:24:09

I wholeheartedly agree with that.

1:24:12

Offices must be above the law

1:24:14

and there must be accountability and transparency

1:24:16

and good leadership and followership. The

1:24:19

dominant culture must be a force for

1:24:21

good, not one of self interest and

1:24:23

self serving a male entitlement, which

1:24:26

is what Baroness Casey's review found

1:24:28

and with an eighty two percent white and

1:24:30

seventy one percent male demographic in

1:24:32

the met, and women not being

1:24:35

a majority or seen as a

1:24:37

priority I just can't

1:24:39

see that changing. Mail

1:24:41

entitlement, misogyny, and patriarchy

1:24:44

are the problem. Until

1:24:46

next time, be curious, ask

1:24:49

questions, and always trust your

1:24:51

instincts.

1:25:07

Here's my final two cents before the

1:25:09

episode wraps. If you like

1:25:11

what I do, please take two minutes to leave

1:25:13

a five star review wherever you listen

1:25:15

to crime analysts or on the website

1:25:17

WWW dot crime hyphenolysts

1:25:20

dot com. It really helps others find

1:25:22

me and also helps with the ratings.

1:25:27

Crime analyst is written, produced,

1:25:29

and hosted by me, Laura Richards.

1:25:32

Found engineering by Jason Shiseley at

1:25:34

Debridged

1:25:35

Audio, cover art and graphics

1:25:37

by Chris Rowbottom at Syndicate and

1:25:39

music by KillRude.

1:25:53

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