0:02

A listener. Production. A.

0:04

Warning. This. Episode

0:07

contains references to suicide

0:09

and domestic violence. If.

0:11

This content of fix you

0:14

the number for lifeline is

0:16

Thirteen, Eleven fourteen. Good

0:23

eye on former police officer

0:25

Brent Sanders. And

0:27

for the past twenty five years,

0:29

I've dedicated myself to sharing what

0:31

I've learned on the fourth to

0:33

the Australian public. So. They

0:36

can better protect themselves from falling

0:38

victim to crime. So

0:41

with the help of some of

0:43

the most respected current and former

0:45

detectives and high ranking law enforcement

0:47

agents going to pull back the

0:50

curtain on what life is like.

0:52

On the fourth, what they've learned

0:54

about how crime and criminals really

0:56

work. These

0:59

are real stories from

1:02

Rio detectives. This

1:05

week, the tangible impact

1:07

of General Judy's policing

1:09

and the dangers of

1:11

online criminal activity. He

1:14

had this mine are you going is is

1:16

actually real Am I potentially going to have

1:18

to take someone's life today. Yasmin

1:23

London is a thirteen year

1:25

veteran of the New South

1:27

Wales Police Force. Her career

1:29

coincides with the rapid rise

1:31

of social media in the

1:33

Two Thousand and Tins. As.

1:35

Others turned a blind eye. Yasmin

1:38

pro actively advocated for children who

1:40

were paying the price for the

1:42

general naive it he to the

1:45

hidden risks of the internet. We

1:47

were confronted snot with than adults. that

1:49

with a fourteen year old girl. I

1:52

have ah a cyber bullying incident. To.

1:56

Start were heading back to

1:58

Sydney's New Town in. The

2:00

Thousand and Six. And

2:02

two, a situation early in her

2:04

career. We.

2:08

Run a a day ceased it was in

2:10

the afternoon you know looking towards the end

2:13

of the shift in hyping, nothing massive was

2:15

gonna happen. Of course we said that the

2:17

dreaded to word which sees in I basically

2:19

illegal in police vague but the word quiet

2:21

and then all of a sudden you know

2:24

they Kj guys off our with an ads

2:26

and job down in a skin will. And.

2:28

So we jumped in in the

2:31

truck, lights and sirens down Cds

2:33

like a sense and we entered

2:35

a house which in our had

2:37

been oscillate destroys i'm broken television

2:39

with a foot barefoot that had

2:41

been through add ah yeah, I'm

2:43

cutlery everywhere, draws pulled out, beds

2:45

thrown in are all over the

2:48

room. Ah and we were met

2:50

with a a young man he

2:52

was probably in his mid thirties

2:54

who was suffering from some kind

2:56

of significance mental illness or mental.

2:58

Episodes he had said that he had

3:01

taken. I had been on there and

3:03

I spend a for a couple of

3:05

days and obviously having a mental illness.

3:07

He was in integrate space so when

3:09

are we came in try to talk

3:11

to him. He became pretty aggressive and

3:13

he ran out the corridor of these

3:16

apartments. And grabbed me by that

3:18

the chest and and flung mean see

3:20

the side of a wall and there

3:22

was one of those moments where you

3:24

really recognize the power and strength that

3:26

comes from paypal taking these sorts of

3:28

substances that he ran out and out.

3:30

We we sort of went on foot,

3:32

chase him all the down kings, three

3:34

essentially down see a clampdown which is

3:36

pretty long or pursuit in the Nc

3:38

live. we had to be pretty seats

3:40

at that point in time. We lost

3:43

him for a period of time and

3:45

you know on foot we were looking

3:47

for at Camp Down Try and find

3:49

him. We had ah the cause looking

3:51

and we ended up finding him in

3:53

an abandoned church and in that moment

3:55

you know when we walked into the

3:57

church not expecting him to be there

3:59

at. Harm you know it was really

4:01

dark, pitch black darkness essentially in the afternoon

4:03

and you have that moment where you're not

4:06

sure what you're gonna find on the other

4:08

side of that. send them what that might

4:10

look like in our members of fear in

4:12

in that that moment for me was was

4:14

a lot it was. It was a lot

4:17

to try to calm my breathing to sort

4:19

of get my head right. We walked in,

4:21

we were searching for him. My partner told

4:23

me to draw my gun. And.

4:26

Sure enough, a couple of minutes into

4:28

our search I saw the glints over

4:30

thirty center made a kitchen knife ahead

4:32

of me and it was him and

4:35

he was still very agitated. It's an

4:37

hour and a lot looking at that

4:39

kitchen. Nice because he was. he was

4:41

doing see your rights with it and

4:43

I wasn't sure in that moment like

4:45

he had this Mine: Are you going?

4:47

Is he actually real? My potentially gonna

4:49

have to take some and lost today.

4:52

They. Teach you you know in the police

4:54

academy that this moment my com for some

4:56

it happens the some you have a city

4:58

career in it and it never occurs And

5:00

it was lucky that day I didn't have

5:02

to. my partner bag you know a lot

5:05

more experience. amazed at a talks me syrup

5:07

or I did have to cover the sky

5:09

for a couple of minutes while my partner

5:11

walked up to him and spoke to him.

5:13

calm him down, got him to put the

5:15

knife down and we handcuffed him and got

5:18

into the ground on that. It was a

5:20

pretty intense situation really early on in my

5:22

police. Curry and we got back to

5:24

add to the station that afternoon. the

5:26

know we'd finished a couple of hours

5:28

later. We have to schedule this, this

5:30

gentleman and or member reflecting and and

5:32

sort of saying this off the cuff.

5:35

Sort. Of semi serious. Remark but trying to

5:37

act cool at the time for my partner and

5:39

said well you know that was that was pretty

5:41

intense you know, is that usual and he kind

5:44

of went to me might that's the job, take

5:46

account of, hard not and get on with it.

5:49

You six weeks in your a probationary

5:51

constable on all the training in the

5:53

world. goes out the window she

5:55

just happened to that church young as sea levels

5:57

come up and everything else and all of a

6:00

sudden you just yourself. You don't

6:02

see yourself as a police officer six weeks in. You've

6:04

got the uniform on and all the rest of it.

6:07

Suddenly you're there, you've got a police issue firearm

6:09

in your hand and that moment of actually pointing

6:11

a firearm at somebody and there are many police

6:13

who as you rightly say were 20, 30, 40

6:16

year service never had to do it. You're

6:19

doing it six weeks in. When

6:21

you look back over that, how does that play

6:23

out in your mind? That whole prospect of pulling

6:27

that trigger, applying a little bit of pressure with

6:29

that index finger and suddenly that person's dead and

6:31

all the ramifications that go with that and

6:33

these are heartbeat decisions. Yeah,

6:36

it is full-on. There's no other

6:38

way of really describing it because

6:41

the weight of responsibility in that moment

6:43

is something that I don't think many

6:45

members of the public really respect or recognise

6:48

is a daily risk for you as a

6:50

police officer. You know holding

6:52

out a loaded firearm, we're not used

6:54

to that. In the police academy you

6:56

have maybe two or three

6:59

goes with real bullets at the shooting

7:01

range. Most of the time you're firing

7:03

blanks, these little plastic blue bullets that

7:05

are in the magazine. So it's the

7:07

weight of that. It is as you say the

7:09

trigger. I just squeeze on

7:11

that and in the pull

7:14

of a finger someone's life potentially

7:16

is gone and you've

7:18

also got to consider do I have the right.

7:20

You're going through the legislation in

7:22

your head and you know your code of conduct

7:24

and the rules around when

7:26

you can pull a firearm out, what's

7:28

an expected situation. This ticked every box.

7:30

You know we were looking at a

7:32

situation where a man was either you

7:35

know imminently or immediately going to

7:37

take a life or hurt himself.

7:40

So you think about that. If I

7:42

had to fire could I be held

7:44

criminally responsible? And then the

7:47

ultimate is taking someone's life away regardless

7:49

of what had happened. You know

7:51

and in this situation this was a

7:53

man who had yes

7:55

taken some illicit substances but was suffering

7:58

a mental illness and that's an... That's

8:00

a no win situation. Nobody wants

8:02

that to go wrong. In

8:05

many ways, he couldn't help the situation that

8:07

he was in yet. We

8:09

were looking at a situation where he might have lost

8:11

his life. For me, I had

8:13

to really reconcile, could I pull the

8:16

trigger if it came to it? If

8:18

I did, how do I live with myself after

8:20

that? It's such an interesting

8:22

way to look at it, Yasmin, because you're right. It's

8:26

the legal justification, and

8:28

he takes a few steps toward your brandishing

8:30

a 30-centimetre knife. You have

8:32

genuine fear for your life or the life of

8:34

your partner, which basically, without going onto the minutia,

8:38

gives you the legal right to

8:40

use fatal force against him. There's

8:43

that, but this case also

8:45

highlights the huge number of incidences

8:48

that police both experience

8:50

and experience find themselves in. Tragically,

8:52

often some of these top-end high-level

8:55

violent confrontations are committed by people

8:58

who, at another time and another circumstance, you

9:00

could be sitting down having a very rational

9:02

discussion with them. It's a

9:04

lose-lose, isn't it? Really, I guess, in many situations

9:07

when we look at it like that. It sure

9:09

is. It is lose-lose. I do look at

9:11

those situations, particularly those that hit the media.

9:14

There's a lot of criticism from armchair experts. The

9:16

police should have done this. They should have done

9:18

that. Why didn't they do that? Why didn't they

9:21

just shoot to maim? One

9:23

of the really important things for the public to

9:25

understand is we're not taught to maim. A,

9:28

there's a really good chance you're going to miss the

9:30

limb that you're going for. We are taught to stop

9:32

the threat, full stop. That

9:35

is a situation. No person, no human

9:37

being. I say human being because police

9:39

are human beings. They wear a uniform,

9:41

but there is a person behind it.

9:44

That person has to wear many hats

9:46

in their day. I

9:48

think there's a really interesting conversation

9:50

around perceptions of police and how

9:52

they're judged, but conversation for

9:54

another day. However, those

9:57

are lose-lose situations for the

9:59

people involved. Nobody wants anybody

10:01

to lose their life or be injured at

10:03

the end of the day but we

10:06

you know have taken an oath

10:08

to protect the public, to protect

10:10

life and property and if

10:12

we don't do that you know we can

10:14

be held responsible personally so it isn't a

10:16

great situation to be in. Also

10:18

coupled with that is the is

10:21

the incredible inaccuracy of handguns. Yes. You would remember

10:23

back at the Academy the first time you picked

10:25

up a gun and they get you about what

10:27

it's probably not even 10 foot from that target

10:29

and you shoot six rounds and you go up

10:31

how many are it maybe one is in there

10:33

and you're looking around to three the other five

10:35

rounds. Oh my gosh and it looks so close

10:37

like yeah I got this. I can't miss. I've watched bad

10:40

boys a few times. I'm all good and no

10:42

you it is actually really hard when you have

10:44

to start to learn how to use the sights

10:46

on a handgun. If you're left-handed

10:48

or right-handed depending on your stance you know

10:51

they teach you all of this stuff but

10:53

the thing is in the Police Academy you

10:55

don't get a lot of opportunities to practice.

10:58

You can't you know bullets are expensive so

11:00

there's not a lot of opportunity

11:02

to perfect your skills and I think

11:04

that's a really interesting misconception when it

11:06

comes to the police is all the

11:08

training that you get or don't

11:10

get and how applicable I

11:12

guess it is to the real-world scenarios that

11:14

you're faced with. You know the Police Academy

11:17

was amazing and I had a fantastic

11:19

time and learnt and grew so much

11:21

but the real job and

11:23

the real learning starts the day you graduate.

11:26

And the idea and you mentioned it before and

11:28

we do hear this yes well why didn't

11:30

the police just you know shoot them in the arm or shoot them in

11:33

the leg. It's not like the TV

11:35

shows. You know from from

11:37

10-15 meters away

11:39

shooting at someone as awful as it is you go for

11:42

that body mass and even then there's

11:44

a chance you're gonna miss. There's a good chance you're gonna

11:46

miss. To say well if you shot him in the wrist

11:48

he maybe dropped his gun. It's not gonna happen. I

11:53

imagine some snipers would struggle with that depending

11:56

on how far away they are. It's

11:58

not easy and in that situation You know,

12:00

you've got to take into account the pressure

12:02

from all angles, the people around you, the

12:04

members of the public. That's the other thing.

12:06

When you think about shooting someone, you've

12:08

got to think about crossfire. You've got to

12:11

think about who's behind that person. You

12:13

know, who are they holding? You know, we're

12:15

in situations where offenders will grab a child,

12:17

you know, and hold them in front of

12:19

their central body mass. How are you

12:21

going to deal with that situation? You know,

12:24

these are all of the considerations that might

12:26

go through a police officer's head in a

12:28

situation like that. Six weeks in,

12:30

this has got to be quite a light bulb

12:32

moment for you, and it's not one that most

12:34

experience six weeks in. Did it get

12:36

you to question Yasmin, you know, your career

12:38

choice? Did it get you to question yourself,

12:40

you know, personally, okay, is this for me?

12:43

Could I have taken that next step if

12:45

need be? Where did you go with

12:47

that? Yeah, definitely. There was a

12:49

huge moment or moments of reflection.

12:52

Firstly, it was could I pull the trigger if I

12:54

had to? You know, did I have a calm

12:57

enough mind to assess the situation

13:00

effectively and make a good solid

13:02

decision? And I think rightly

13:04

or wrongly, and this is a scary thing to learn

13:06

about yourself, to be honest, I

13:09

felt that if I was pushed, I would have done it. And

13:13

that's a moment, you know, of itself,

13:15

you know, if I was pushed, could

13:17

I take a life to protect the

13:19

public or myself or my partner? Yes,

13:21

I could. And you

13:23

do judge yourself in many ways. And did

13:26

I question whether I wanted to be a

13:28

police officer? No.

13:30

You know, you get caught up in many ways

13:32

in the excitement of a job like that. It's

13:36

exciting in ways, but you know, the seriousness of

13:38

it, that's the word where we had to really

13:40

decide is this for me? It

13:42

was an interesting sort of

13:44

point of reflection where I believed that I

13:47

could have done it and what came with

13:49

that? Yasmin, you know,

13:51

the comment that was made to you by

13:53

your partner, Senior Counselor, he's got about 10

13:55

years in the job, almost

13:57

a bit of a shrugging of the shoulders looking down his

13:59

nose. is a bit sort of and there's

14:01

a bit of blokey carry on with that

14:03

too but that sort

14:07

of apathy, did you find as you move

14:09

through the job and you experience more things

14:12

like that, did you find yourself becoming a

14:14

little sort of harder in your thought process

14:16

and things like that? I think

14:18

everybody becomes a little bit harder in the

14:20

way that you think about things. It's a

14:22

self-preservation technique essentially. You're dealing with people on

14:24

the worst day of their lives in the

14:27

worst situation of their lives every day of

14:29

your week but I guess it's

14:31

something that should be considered a

14:33

lot by police officers. I'm

14:35

of the belief that that way of

14:37

thinking is a massive contributor to

14:40

the rates of PTSD that we're saying that

14:42

the lack of access

14:44

for mental health services, the lack

14:47

of a willingness to admit when you're

14:49

struggling or that something has affected you,

14:51

that sort of shut down

14:54

moment where you have to take a can

14:56

to harden up, that's the job, the response

14:58

to that. I think in 2024, in

15:01

today's day and age, it's not a

15:03

very mature response and I

15:05

think there's things

15:07

that in my time I've tried

15:10

to do better. I've tried to make sure

15:12

that I've recognized if somebody was struggling,

15:14

I've watched if I had colleagues that

15:16

were having a hard time. I've asked

15:18

the question, are you okay? It's important

15:22

for us as police

15:24

officers to make sure that we're

15:26

looking after each other and not putting

15:28

ego before our health and that was

15:30

maybe a catalyst moment, that first six

15:32

weeks kind of being a bit shocked

15:35

at that response. Maybe it

15:37

made me do the opposite in

15:39

terms of the way I addressed

15:41

my colleagues then. That's really

15:43

interesting because you're right, you go back further and

15:45

further at time in the job and the general

15:48

consensus was you didn't complain, you didn't put your

15:50

hand up, you just did what you had to do

15:53

and anything other than that was seen as

15:55

weakness and that type of thing. I

15:57

say this with due respect, you said at times you felt

16:00

like a bit of a square peg and a

16:02

round hole and you equated that to your

16:04

personality which is very open, very

16:07

empathetic coming up against a

16:09

different type of personality. Yeah, I think

16:11

I probably wasn't meant

16:14

to be in a paramilitary organisation

16:16

in that context. My

16:19

parents had probably attest to the fact that

16:21

I was always a very outspoken rebellious child

16:23

and that's always sort of gone with me.

16:25

So the rules are meant to

16:27

be bent or broken according to my life. So

16:31

yeah, I was a different kind of

16:33

police officer. I didn't fit the mould. In

16:37

many ways, I liked to be really positive. I liked

16:39

to be a good communicator. I

16:42

tried to be myself despite the

16:44

fact that I was wearing a

16:46

uniform that people would always make

16:48

assumptions about me purely because I

16:50

was wearing it. While

16:53

I think that was difficult early on,

16:56

people made judgements about the fact that I

16:58

looked a certain way or maybe I was

17:00

a bit airheaded. I

17:04

had a colleague I remember early on

17:06

who didn't know me when I first

17:09

started at Newtown. He called me a lava lamp.

17:11

I went, what do you mean lava lamp?

17:15

She said pretty

17:17

to look at but not much else going on.

17:20

No other functions that

17:22

are any good. So you go through

17:24

that and that's your sort of introduction

17:26

to a police force that's

17:28

meant to be about protection but culturally

17:31

it could be really different. I

17:33

think for me, I'm

17:36

gay and at

17:38

that point in time didn't fit the

17:40

mould. I guess the public persona, if you

17:42

will, what the public would think a lesbian

17:44

looked like. They watch Mardi

17:46

Gras and see dykes on bikes and think that

17:49

is the category that I should be within and

17:51

I didn't fit that. So

17:53

there was a lot of challenging of is

17:55

she really gay? She just needs

17:57

to be turned with the right man.

18:00

I had off-the-cuff remarks happen like that,

18:02

but I also had really serious situations

18:04

that impacted my safety because of that

18:06

attitude. I had a police sergeant that

18:08

I worked with who made

18:10

a move, obviously was rejected, and he

18:14

wouldn't talk to me. There were about six

18:16

or eight weeks while we were on shift

18:18

together, so wouldn't answer the police radio. So

18:20

if we look at that situation that we've

18:23

talked about earlier where we've got a person

18:25

with mental ill health who is violent, and

18:28

you've got a person who won't respond to

18:30

your calls on the police radio, that places

18:32

you in significant jeopardy. And so these are

18:34

the situations where you don't fit the mould

18:36

when you aren't the normal sort of cookie-cutter

18:39

police officer that sometimes you

18:42

come up against and

18:44

you've got to find your way through that.

18:46

You've got to find your allies and your

18:48

advocates and really lean into

18:50

your resilience and knowing who

18:52

you are and what you stand for.

18:56

But as a 23-year-old, I didn't

18:58

know myself that well, and that confidence

19:00

comes with time and maturity. So it

19:02

was a gross area and period of

19:04

time for sure. Police

19:06

force has always continues to be a very

19:08

tough environment for women. I mean, you can't

19:10

dress that up. It just is. The

19:13

time that you went into the job, which is close

19:15

to 20 years ago, far more

19:18

men than women. Women

19:20

were the minority on section and that type of thing.

19:22

And we know, and I've had the privilege of having

19:25

a lot of ex-serving police women on the other side

19:27

of the desk. And they do.

19:29

They talk about this. It's a common theme through all of

19:31

it. Interesting too picking

19:34

up there, Yasmin, it's

19:36

dealing with other female police officers that

19:39

can sometimes be perhaps equally

19:41

as tough. Would that be a fair call? Absolutely.

19:44

I think, you know, to build on your point about

19:46

how difficult it is for women in the police, One

19:49

of the ways that they succeed is to

19:51

become like men. And In many ways, you

19:54

know, as much of a man as any

19:56

other man in the police force and to

19:58

really go toe to toe and nose to

20:00

nose with them. And for yeah, you do

20:02

come across women who, ah, Aggressively

20:04

anti feminist and who don't like

20:07

the wide that you look oh

20:09

that sink in I didn't know.

20:11

Make assumptions in ways that are

20:13

some. Categorically untrue

20:16

and and Joji without getting center years.

20:18

So in one of the things that

20:20

always does work in the job though

20:22

is to become a good operate on

20:24

and that's how you gain respects and

20:26

sorry I. The time you pay attention

20:28

you'd get opportunities to sorry what you've

20:30

got. You know how you can contribute,

20:32

how you do with an offender, how

20:35

you write you know a report, how

20:37

you deal with a brace. Everything like

20:39

that starts to come together and your

20:41

reputation like it or lump it begins

20:43

to proceed you and sorry you can

20:45

look. Like I do Or you can look

20:47

like your typical doc on a bike. Whatever

20:49

you want to be. Not the one is

20:51

better than the other at all, but just

20:53

in terms of assumptions that people might make

20:55

about you based on physical appearance. your your

20:57

work will will speak for you as they

20:59

insulate. Two

21:17

thousand and twelve you moved to

21:19

the Rose by command. Very wealthy

21:21

Sydney suburb. one of the wealthiest

21:23

city suburbs had some Sydney harbour

21:26

this automates and ah the assumption

21:28

perhaps poison saw the police and

21:30

otherwise is a pretty cozy command.

21:33

His involvement to were to police

21:35

the reality for you was quite

21:37

different. Yeah, i think i grew

21:39

up in the ice and suburb so

21:42

i had a really good understanding of

21:44

of rice bay and the types of

21:46

people that lived there and i guess

21:48

when i started the types of experience

21:51

that were very unexpected so it's a

21:53

very high socio economic area you know

21:55

people made the assumption both are in

21:57

the police force an external that were

22:00

people didn't really have problems, you know, that they

22:02

had these amazing super yachts that they went out

22:04

on and, you know, maybe their worst part of

22:06

their day was when their bag of coke didn't

22:08

turn up. But what

22:10

I actually found was there was a

22:13

significant amount of mental health in that

22:15

command. Domestic violence

22:17

obviously occurred, but

22:19

it was quite different to

22:22

what you might experience in other

22:24

areas. So let's say Western Sydney and

22:26

the volume of physical assaults that might

22:28

happen there. We were dealing with

22:31

financial domestic violence. We were

22:33

dealing with emotional domestic violence

22:35

coercion, these sort of quite

22:38

sophisticated ways of dealing with

22:41

different people in those situations. But

22:44

of course the physical was there too. I can

22:47

recall, you know, a job not so

22:49

long before I finished up there where

22:51

we had a recidivist victim and

22:54

we had a job in Paddington and we

22:56

turned up to this job and her throat

22:58

had been slit. She was still alive. It

23:00

obviously hadn't caught the jugular. But

23:02

I remember this moment where we sort of come up

23:05

to her and started talking to her and asked who

23:07

did it and she told us that she did it

23:09

to herself. Like that was the level of protection

23:12

that she wanted to afford her

23:14

partner in that moment. And, you know,

23:17

it really speaks to the difficulties that

23:19

police have in court processes as well

23:21

when you're dealing with that sort of

23:23

level of mental health and domestic violence

23:25

that's going on. And that was happening

23:27

in, you know, the richest postcode in

23:29

Australia. So it was seen

23:31

as a cruisy command and yep, we went down

23:33

to Bondi and, you know, had a coffee with

23:35

the lifeguards every now and then. But

23:38

it really did have a dark underbelly as

23:40

well once you were there for long enough.

23:42

It's interesting. You know, that term coercive

23:45

control, Yasmin, is one that we're getting

23:47

more familiarity with, aren't we? And

23:50

it's interesting to note that, you know, when you

23:52

work in areas, and I don't mean

23:54

to generalise, but when you work in what are

23:56

recognised as say tougher areas of Sydney, Domestic

23:59

violence is. There's often a nice

24:01

as a cool com takes its or

24:03

possibly alcohol fueled and things such as

24:05

that. you go into a different demographic

24:07

and it was interesting suited to you

24:09

know, use terms like financial and coercive.

24:12

Control. And I would say

24:14

at the risk of generalizable think

24:17

weekends overwhelmingly miles. Who

24:19

are cover Sibley controlling their partners

24:21

three finance through through all sorts

24:23

of different mains and dumb and

24:26

is powerful people. They really are and

24:28

they will be the first to turn around and

24:30

say the in a high on your i'm a

24:32

barista, I'm a lawyer out and it's really interesting.

24:34

Hasn't he been in the job long enough? Ego.

24:37

Of what sort of lawyer I and

24:40

now sound them environmental lawyer and say

24:42

the Sky A Cat will get new

24:44

level of understanding of their own posturing

24:46

that you're putting on right now doesn't

24:48

mean anything and I'm working within the

24:50

law and my rights and what I

24:53

should be doing to protect the public

24:55

so you can call them on that

24:57

That Yes, there was certainly powerful people

24:59

controlling many parts of their families. I

25:01

certainly their partners that united are in

25:03

the some significant ones where we had

25:06

men who were controlling their. Elderly mothers

25:08

by withholding medication in I to try

25:10

and make sure that they died a

25:12

little earlier said that I could receive

25:14

an inheritance it I All of that

25:16

started to come in supply and we

25:18

learn about the spectrum of domestic violence

25:20

not just being physical abuse that all

25:22

of these other facets of them be

25:24

seen a to be on the lookout

25:26

for and how do you gather evidence

25:28

around that sense you know for. For.

25:31

Offices in A in the come on. We

25:33

weren't really taught on any major level. How.

25:36

To do that in, I had Yo

25:38

Yo procedures for an investigation and particularly

25:40

when it comes to domestic violence. The

25:43

statement: hiking gear, your ability to question

25:45

and into the paypal was really important.

25:49

Those sorts of crimes weren't common until

25:51

he got to places like Rise By.

25:53

In my experience, interesting to you know,

25:56

I'm again without preps, trying to generalize

25:58

if you're working and I. The

26:00

and a command entered a

26:02

tougher demographic. The. Sort of

26:05

a police car pulling up that the front of

26:07

the house it doesn't attract. No one bats an

26:09

eyelid. in fact, in a young some in some

26:11

areas. if there's no police car in the straight

26:13

on a day or a couple days people gamble,

26:15

what's what's going on here? You. Go

26:17

to simulate Rose by. A

26:20

police car pulls up outside one of those

26:22

big Rose by an eye on mentioned some

26:24

of these homes the homes of carry packers

26:27

and some of these other people to see

26:29

a police car in the street to see

26:31

police actually going to an address. This is

26:33

something that many people in those environments haven't

26:36

seen. Who's calling you

26:38

to summers because he would be a

26:40

reluctance to even those on the receiving

26:42

end. And often times with domestic violence,

26:44

police aren't getting cold by the tiger

26:47

to the violence. other so you're often

26:49

getting caught by neighbors by children. But

26:51

things on that guess it's definitely. Say

26:53

it's neighbors are an interesting one in an

26:55

area like this because of their yeah perception

26:57

and as some sensitive in the rights and

26:59

way that they want to leave say in

27:01

a to speak and police cars handing off

27:04

in straight sets. The why is interesting because

27:06

he know you're going to deal with neighbors,

27:08

he will come up to you and demands

27:10

and I while there and this sort of

27:12

presumption, an expectation that I have a right

27:14

to know the ins and outs of what's

27:16

going on. This is dire straight they are

27:18

in that land. This is my house. Has

27:20

your why do you know that are yes I

27:22

do effect of her allies. Is our it?

27:24

I guess it's. It's. Something

27:26

that you do learn in a in a

27:29

come on like rise Bay that. In.

27:31

Many ways tape like that. A really easy to

27:34

deal with when you know how to deal money,

27:36

know the right things to say when you're dealing

27:38

with a guy is can manipulate people quite easily

27:40

that way and they don't really realize it and

27:42

say you know and I don't expect it from

27:44

a loyal a police officer a them. on

27:47

that's not to say no not that we

27:49

manipulate paypal but it's it's about knowing how

27:51

to address paypal whether they are a billionaire

27:53

or there is an usher in a school

27:55

in are you treat everybody equally but you

27:58

know what levels to pull when it comes

28:00

to trying to make that situation work for

28:02

you. And by that I mean make

28:04

sure that everybody is safe, that we're getting

28:06

the information that we need, that we're understanding

28:09

the facts of what's actually occurred and creating

28:12

a better outcome basically because we're there.

28:15

They do call the neighbours, the kids will

28:18

call. We have had,

28:20

speaking of kids, I worked a lot

28:22

as a youth liaison officer and dealing

28:24

with a lot of kids who were

28:26

very violent and families who

28:28

were really reluctant to call because they

28:30

didn't want to compromise their child's futures,

28:33

thinking that they were going to get

28:35

charged with offences and taken to court

28:37

and getting a criminal record. So this

28:40

reluctance to involve police

28:42

by many facets of that

28:44

community, you had to really earn

28:46

their trust first before they would give you a

28:48

call and tell you what was really going on.

28:52

Yasmin, you mentioned high levels of

28:54

mental health issues. I'm just

28:56

interested in a snapshot of the typical type

28:58

of mental health issues that our frontline police

29:00

officer in Rose Bay would be dealing with.

29:03

It could be everything. It could be

29:05

anxiety, depression. It can be drug

29:08

overdoses that have happened

29:11

sometimes. Partners or kids

29:13

or family will say that they've done

29:15

it for attention and that there isn't

29:17

actually mental illness and you're dealing with

29:19

that scenario. Where

29:22

I was probably called most and spent

29:24

the most of my time, as probably

29:26

every other officer at Rose Bay would

29:28

attest to, is a location called The

29:31

Gap, which for any non-Sydney listeners, that's

29:34

a 96-metre high cliff top in

29:36

Watson's Bay. It

29:38

is one of the most famous suicide hotspots in

29:41

the world. So if you were to Google The

29:43

Gap, typically it comes up in the first page

29:45

or the first ten search results of the best

29:47

ways to kill yourself. As

29:50

an officer there, particularly

29:52

at certain parts or times of the

29:55

year, we'd be there sometimes several times

29:57

a week, sometimes several times a year.

29:59

shift to deal with people who were

30:01

wanting to end their life. And

30:04

that was a lesson in of itself. We

30:06

again in the police academy got a bit of training

30:09

on how to speak to people in these situations

30:11

and circumstances. But really when you are

30:13

on a cliff top with someone trying

30:15

to understand why they're there

30:18

and wondering if the next thing you say

30:21

might not be the right thing or might

30:23

make things worse and cause them to jump,

30:26

that's a pressure and an experience that

30:28

nothing can really prepare you for. And

30:31

so you have to go really within yourself

30:33

and I talk a lot about that human

30:36

element of policing because that's what you are

30:38

relied upon to give. You are talking person

30:40

to person. You metaphorically take a

30:42

uniform off and you're there trying to

30:44

understand how you can help a person

30:47

in crisis. And

30:49

sometimes they might have schizophrenia, they're hearing voices

30:51

and there's nothing that you can do about

30:53

that other than try to get them to

30:56

listen to you over the voice that tells

30:58

them to jump off that cliff. Just

31:03

on that yes, in 2014 you'd been at the Rose Bay Command

31:05

for a couple of years and as you say, no doubt

31:08

numerous visits to the

31:10

gap in that role. There

31:13

was a case though in 2014 you got a call in

31:15

the morning that there was someone at the gap. Can

31:18

you walk us through this case? Sure.

31:21

This incident changed my life. It

31:23

was really one of those moments

31:25

that just set me on a different path.

31:28

So we had a job come in,

31:30

lights and sirens down to the gap and

31:32

we got out of the car, walked

31:35

up the stairs to gap loss and

31:37

we were confronted not with an

31:39

adult but with a 14-year-old girl

31:42

who was over the incorrect side of the fence

31:45

up at the gap over a cyberbullying

31:48

incident. Back

31:50

in that year, I knew about

31:52

social media, I knew about Facebook

31:54

and I'd heard of Instagram but

31:57

this was a situation that really woke me up to

31:59

the power of... social media and the online world

32:01

for young people. So

32:03

I spoke to this girl and asked her

32:05

what had happened and tried to get out

32:07

of her, you know, what caused her to

32:09

come to this point. And she said that

32:11

someone had taken a picture of her in

32:13

class without her knowledge and had

32:16

uploaded it to Instagram where people

32:18

who she thought were her friends

32:20

and then other random strangers critiqued

32:22

how she looked, you know, told

32:24

her that she had a terrible face, that

32:27

she was fat and ugly. And

32:29

then at the end of this message thread, someone

32:31

said, why don't you drink bleach and kill

32:33

yourself? Now,

32:37

she obviously didn't choose that method,

32:39

but it did take her to

32:41

a cliff edge within moments of

32:43

stepping off it. And in

32:46

that moment, you know, I

32:48

didn't really know what to say

32:50

to that. I had no experience

32:52

in the online world and didn't

32:54

really know about social media. And

32:57

so I just had to keep talking

32:59

to her and talking to her about

33:01

the reasons that she had to keep

33:03

going to really empathize and validate her

33:06

feelings, despite the fact that I couldn't

33:08

agree with them. But

33:11

I've since learned, obviously, you know, the right way

33:13

to deal with people is to validate where they're

33:15

at. And this

33:17

particular conversation, you know, it was a long one. This one

33:19

took hours, hours to get her over the correct side of

33:22

the fence, which we did in the end. But

33:24

it wasn't just me as well. It was polar

33:27

in the sky. It was Marine Area Command waiting

33:29

in the water for when she went off. And

33:33

those moments, it's just that's never

33:35

left me. And that really did

33:38

make me realize the power of the

33:40

online world for kids. And

33:42

for us as adults, you know, how much

33:44

we need to do better in understanding how

33:46

to help them manage the risks that it

33:48

poses for them. And

33:50

so at that point in time, I was doing a

33:52

little bit of work as a Youth Liaison Officer in

33:54

the command. And part of my job was to go

33:56

to schools and to educate kids and students on a

33:59

range of different things. And at that

34:01

point in time, I had a slide deck with the

34:03

Telecommunications Criminal Code Act on it where I was meant

34:05

to turn up and tell kids that if you shared

34:07

a nude image or you were mean to someone online,

34:09

you were going to be arrested and go to jail

34:12

for 12 years. This

34:14

is ridiculous. And they could see

34:16

right through it as well. And so for me,

34:18

I like to be effective in the things that

34:20

I do. So I changed the way that we

34:23

delivered that information. I did it

34:25

without permission as per my childhood

34:28

tendencies to not listen and

34:30

not abide by the rules. But

34:33

I wanted to start making a difference

34:35

in kids' lives in this area. And

34:38

so I guess, yeah, it set me on a

34:40

different trajectory. As part

34:42

of that as well, we created a

34:44

youth-based film festival which was

34:47

inspired by those events, which was

34:50

really a purposeful event where we got

34:52

kids to use mobile phones as a

34:54

tool for good, of empowerment, of storytelling

34:56

rather than a tool to bully each

34:58

other. And so we created

35:00

this amazing film festival about a year

35:02

later where kids in their

35:05

thousands participated and created

35:07

short stories on their mobile phones about

35:09

their experiences in the online world and what

35:11

they wanted the adults around them to do.

35:14

And the crux of that tragically was

35:17

this young girl, goodness me, 14 year

35:19

nine, who's

35:21

standing on the edge of the gap for

35:24

several hours, could have ended obviously

35:27

tragically. I'm

35:30

really interested in exploring some

35:32

of the work that you've done as a result of that

35:35

moving forward. Could I just take

35:37

half a step back when that

35:39

young girl steps over the other side

35:41

of the fence and she's back there with you and

35:45

you embrace her or somebody does and she's now

35:48

safe. What happens there? What's the police involvement?

35:51

Because there's a real conundrum isn't there with

35:53

the work that you do with those people

35:56

and how draining, exhausting it must be and

35:58

you get them back over the... there.

36:01

And then it's sort of like there's almost nothing.

36:05

It's an ongoing battle and I really

36:07

hope in my time since I've been in

36:09

the police that this has improved. But in

36:11

my time we had so

36:13

many instances countless where we would talk

36:15

people back, we would schedule them, which

36:18

means that we take them against their

36:20

will a lot of the time to

36:22

the police, to the hospital

36:24

I should say, where they are

36:26

to see a psychiatrist, a doctor and they may

36:29

or may not be admitted. In

36:32

many cases, unless

36:35

you stay with them as a police officer, they

36:37

will not voluntarily stay there. They don't want to

36:39

be scheduled. They don't want to go into a

36:41

clinic a lot of the time. And so we

36:43

would have situations we're on the same shift. We

36:45

would schedule someone in the morning. We would take

36:47

them to the hospital. We would

36:49

have to leave because we only had

36:51

a couple of trucks on a shift

36:53

and we'd have to get back to

36:55

our area and we'd find that same

36:58

person back at the gap in the

37:00

afternoon because the hospital had released them.

37:02

And I remember we had quite a

37:04

few arguments with the numbs in the

37:06

emergency departments and the security officers because

37:08

somebody had to babysit this person until

37:10

they could be seen. And if they

37:12

were triaged and they weren't triaged as

37:15

a person that was going to cause themselves

37:18

immediate harm if they were sitting with a

37:20

police officer in a hospital, which is highly

37:22

likely is going to be under control, then

37:24

they're often left. And so we have to

37:27

sit there, limited resources in the police force,

37:29

and make sure that they stay and actually

37:31

receive the treatment that they need or

37:34

we leave and risk that they will go

37:36

off and hurt themselves and they'll go through

37:38

with what we just intervened in or that

37:40

we'd have to deal with them again six

37:42

hours later. And

37:44

respectfully, the skill that it takes to talk somebody

37:47

back from an edge like that, that

37:49

is a skill, there is no doubt. But when

37:51

you're there sitting with them at the closest hospital, what

37:53

is Prince of Wales or wherever it might be? The

37:55

main sense of Prince of Wales, yes. You're sitting alongside

37:57

this person. You're not a... side

38:00

counsellor, you're not a psychologist you know but

38:02

you're sort of almost having to play that

38:04

pseudo role with them as you're looking at

38:06

your watch going well it

38:08

seems very inadequate

38:11

that process for mine. Has

38:13

it improved to your knowledge? Look not

38:15

to my knowledge I believe that you know

38:17

police are still in situations where I mean

38:20

hospitals are in the same boat right there's

38:22

no resources there is limited

38:24

funding and it goes in a variety

38:26

of different areas certainly not to security

38:28

guards or people who have the opportunity

38:30

to sit and do nothing but you

38:32

know hang out with a patient. So

38:34

no I don't believe

38:37

it has improved there was you know

38:39

a memorandum of understanding that was being

38:41

negotiated around the time that I left

38:43

I hope that it has improved because

38:45

we need police to be on the

38:48

job we need them to be out

38:50

there protecting the public rather than you

38:52

know sitting in a hospital ward with

38:54

a patient while that's incredibly important and

38:56

that person needs support and care it's

38:58

not the job of police to do

39:00

that. So Yasmin that tragic

39:02

case as you said it and it's I don't

39:04

think I'm overstating it it changed your life it

39:07

changed the course of your

39:09

career in the police and even perhaps we could

39:11

argue led to a springboard from leaving the police

39:14

and the work that you still do. You

39:16

mentioned that part of what you did

39:18

was through your youth aid was bring

39:20

these young people together and the term

39:22

I think pocket filmmaking is that can

39:24

you explain that? Yeah pocket

39:26

filmmaking so what we

39:28

tried to do given that this you know

39:30

situation that happened with the girl at the

39:33

Gap was was caused by a cyberbally incident

39:35

you know the centre of that was a

39:37

mobile phone we were really

39:39

trying to be creative about the way

39:41

that we could ensure that young people's

39:43

voices were heard in an accessible way

39:45

and to utilise a tool like the

39:47

mobile phone for good and so we

39:49

created this film festival where kids could

39:51

tell their stories about their

39:53

experiences both good and bad to the

39:56

adults in their lives. The

39:58

film festival was called Realise and it's still

40:00

going today, whatever

40:02

it is, 15 years later, 10, my

40:04

maths is terrible, whatever it was. But

40:07

it was a powerful moment. In

40:10

that time, what we

40:12

knew that we needed to

40:14

attract kids and adults

40:16

alike to this festival was to have

40:18

an ambassador. I

40:20

had watched a celebrity called

40:22

Charlotte Dawson for a while

40:24

experience some pretty significant online

40:26

trolling. I'd read the media

40:28

and seen the reports. I

40:32

approached her and asked her if she would be

40:34

our ambassador. Like

40:36

the amazing woman that she was, she didn't

40:38

even blink and I didn't hesitate and said

40:41

yes, absolutely. So I got

40:43

to know her over the time that we

40:45

ran Realize in the first couple of years.

40:48

She was an amazing woman, obviously

40:51

no longer with us, also

40:54

a situation where she took her own

40:56

life, but a significant part

40:58

of her experience was negative

41:01

online behavior directed towards her by members

41:03

of the public. As

41:06

part of Realize and getting to know her, I

41:08

started to work with her a little more around

41:10

her experiences. I

41:13

guess it was another moment, another layer

41:15

of exposure to this world and

41:17

the impact that it has on everyday human

41:20

beings. When I was talking to

41:22

Charlotte, we'd meet and have a Gozleme

41:24

down at Double Bay Markets and she talked to

41:26

me about how people would send her pictures of

41:30

dead babies on Twitter and how could she

41:32

get rid of that. I'd

41:34

learnt a little bit more about it, obviously

41:37

subsequent to this experience. We

41:39

tried to put in reports. We

41:41

didn't know much about the eSafety Commissioner

41:43

at that time and it would take

41:45

days for Twitter to remove posts like

41:48

that from her feed, let alone mean

41:50

and nasty comments or people that had trolled

41:53

her. It was a

41:55

really tricky scenario from a human perspective

41:57

because Charlotte was a really strong

41:59

woman. and really fierce advocate

42:02

and did not want to

42:04

back down to trolls. Now

42:06

the advice that we would often give

42:08

someone in those scenarios is to not

42:10

respond, is to block, report, restrict, whatever

42:13

it might be, but Charlotte

42:15

wouldn't do that. And on one hand,

42:17

I totally respected Maya her fight, but

42:19

on the other hand, all

42:21

it did was encourage more and more

42:24

trolls and pylons in her life.

42:28

We had situations where she

42:30

had my personal number, so she'd call me

42:32

in the middle of the night and just

42:34

want to talk about what had gone on

42:36

and she was quite emotional and upset about

42:38

it as would anyone be. And

42:41

it's certainly not the reason

42:44

that she's no longer here, but certainly

42:46

a contributor to her mental health at

42:48

that time and another example that we

42:50

can't let this sort of behaviour go

42:52

on. Your connection with

42:54

Charlotte Dawson both in a professional

42:56

level and a personal level was

42:58

such that I understand that with

43:01

her tragic death taking her own life,

43:03

it becomes a coroner's case and you

43:05

I think submitted a report to

43:07

the coroner. I thought the right thing

43:09

to do, I went and saw the

43:12

OIC who was at King's Cross, which

43:14

is the area that Charlotte had lived

43:17

and I asked if it would be okay if

43:19

I submitted a report and

43:21

just detailed her experiences and the

43:23

people that we had tried

43:26

to investigate, tried

43:28

to bring some charges against.

43:31

We didn't end up being successful in

43:33

that because it was really difficult to identify

43:35

beyond a reasonable doubt that this person

43:37

who wrote this comment was the person sitting

43:40

behind the screen at the time. But

43:43

I thought it was really important that that was

43:45

included, at least for consideration for the coroner. Yasmin,

43:48

you're 10 years on from the incident

43:50

at The Gap and it was

43:53

that incident as tragic as it was but not as

43:55

tragic as it may have been had it not been

43:57

for your intervention, Which took you

43:59

on that different the half way through the police

44:02

which is now leads you Yeah, leaving the place

44:04

of your own volition and and going there meant

44:06

that. So that path with as you've just described

44:08

the company that you now that you now running

44:10

that young go see Be twenty four now. Do.

44:13

The wonder. Where. She is

44:16

has she got on, Do not? I don't

44:18

know, but I wander off and. I.

44:20

Have say that sees ha. I

44:23

mean when we got off that

44:25

cliff, it's obviously very high intensity

44:27

situation. Did I feel

44:30

like see would return soon

44:32

thing in my.said she would

44:34

be okay. I'm. In. I

44:36

die situations as well. What brought her to.more

44:38

immense was obviously a cyber bullying incident. A

44:40

terrible thing that happened. It's certainly not the

44:43

only thing that was going on in her

44:45

life, so that's one of the things you've

44:47

gotta remembered. As always. Elements.

44:50

That contribute to a person ending

44:52

up in that particular situation. But

44:54

sometimes it takes that to change

44:56

your life. That takes that to

44:58

really recognize way you want to

45:00

go. She struck me as a

45:03

girl that was going to be

45:05

okay. She had an amazing support

45:07

system, a lovely and wonderful family.

45:09

Do. I wonder where she is? Yes. A.

45:12

Hype that sees iti. I

45:14

really feel axes and I'm really grateful

45:16

to try to role in. Making so

45:18

that that I was and hella. Yes

45:24

when I want to thank you so

45:26

much for coming in to the studio

45:28

to have a chat with today. Thirteen

45:30

years of service to the good people

45:32

New South Wales and ah, thank you

45:34

so much for your service and thank

45:36

you for the work that you continue

45:38

to do in that area. That is

45:41

that much much needed area with regards

45:43

to understanding, dealing with and trying to

45:45

reduce cyber bullying. And because this is

45:47

a world that you're too young children

45:49

growing up and mine have grown up

45:51

and and we just cannot do enough

45:53

in that spice and. To have got their.

45:55

on the back of the with he didn't the places

45:58

to such a wonderful story and and think you some

46:00

for sharing it with us. Thank you so much for

46:02

having me, it's been an absolute pleasure. Crime

46:08

Insiders Detectives is a listener

46:10

original production. It's

46:13

hosted by me, Brent Sanders, produced

46:15

by Ed Gooden and

46:17

sound designed and imaged by Link

46:19

Kelly. If

46:22

this content affects you, the number

46:24

for Lifeline is 13 11 14.