0:04

A Warning. This

0:06

episode contains references to child

0:08

sexual abuse. As well,

0:11

there are details surrounding the death of

0:13

a child. If this

0:15

content affects you, help is always

0:17

available by contacting Lifeline on 13

0:19

11 14. You

0:28

know, I'm former police officer Brent

0:30

Sanders and for

0:33

the past 25 years I've

0:35

dedicated myself to sharing what I've learnt

0:37

on the force to the

0:39

Australian public so they can

0:41

better protect themselves from falling victim

0:43

to crime. So

0:46

with the help of some of the

0:48

most respected current and former detectives and

0:50

high ranking law enforcement agents, I'm going

0:53

to pull back the curtain on what life

0:55

is like on the force and

0:58

what they've learnt about how crime

1:00

and criminals really work. These

1:04

are real stories from

1:07

real detectives. This

1:10

week a former police

1:12

inspector who helped expose

1:15

historical institutional child sexual

1:17

abuse within the

1:19

Catholic Church. They

1:21

were there to protect and guide Death Lock and

1:24

they prayed and

1:27

abused and then after that abandoned

1:30

Death Lock. Troy

1:35

Grant spent 22 years in

1:37

the police force and

1:39

would later go on to become the

1:41

Deputy Premier of New South Wales. His

1:45

career is diverse and has seen

1:47

him take on some intense and

1:50

confronting challenges. None

1:53

more so than the

1:55

investigation, arrest and prosecution

1:57

of pedophile priest Vincent

1:59

Ryan. During investigation I studied

2:01

their canon law, so the law

2:03

of the church, I read the Bible extensively. In

2:06

all the interviews I had with them I just threw

2:08

it back in their face, the hypocrisy. We'll

2:12

go into that case in further detail

2:14

throughout the episode. But

2:16

to start, we're going back to 1993, where

2:18

Troy, a constable at the time, was posted

2:23

to a small rural town in

2:26

northern New South Wales. So

2:32

stationed at Brie Warriner in northwest

2:34

New South Wales, it's about an

2:36

hour east of Burke. The

2:38

population is about 3,000 people. In

2:42

December of 1993, very

2:44

routine, just working a

2:46

night shift with my partner Jason Williams,

2:48

who is still today a

2:50

lifelong friend, just called to an

2:53

incident at the Brie Warriner RSL Club about 2.30

2:55

in the morning. The band

2:57

was playing, the club was pretty well

3:00

packed, so we made our

3:02

way into the club to attend

3:04

to this pretty routine call of someone having an

3:06

argument or a fight or nothing

3:08

of any significance, and made

3:10

our way into pretty much the middle of the club. Country

3:15

clubs are sophisticated in their design or whatever, everything

3:17

sort of lumped in the gather pill tables are

3:19

very close to the pokies, very close to the

3:21

bar, dance floor and that sort of

3:23

thing. So made our way to

3:25

the end of the bar to see the complainant, and

3:27

it seemed that there was nothing much in it. So

3:30

it could have been a fur-feave of a call,

3:32

just to lure us into the club.

3:35

And at that point we were approached by 12 individuals

3:39

who started just mouthing off of

3:41

us and just being pretty unruly. Knew

3:45

them all, those small communities, you know everyone

3:47

in the place, so they were easily

3:50

identifiable. And we

3:52

were just conversing with them, trying to get them to calm

3:54

down as they were getting more and more agitated, pretty

3:57

much over nothing, but it became pretty apparent

3:59

very quickly. that we'd been

4:01

lured there. And as

4:03

a police officer, you do a lot of

4:05

nonverbal communication and you can sort of communicate

4:07

with your partner without saying a lot. We

4:11

knew that it was necessary to

4:13

get us and those 12 out

4:15

of the very crowded area, the

4:17

populated area, because we could

4:19

just sense that there was trouble happening. As we

4:21

moved and shepherded them, for what of a

4:23

better word, towards the door, one

4:26

of the offenders threw a king hit and

4:28

punched my partner in the back of

4:31

their head and then a melee evolved and

4:33

we were attacked by the 12 individuals

4:35

who threw haymakers and started

4:37

kicking and it was just a brawl erupted.

4:41

At one point, as we were trying

4:43

to defend ourselves and still

4:45

try to get the group out the door into

4:47

the street, an offender picked up

4:50

a bar stool and cocked it over his

4:52

shoulder and moved into to clout

4:54

my partner and I stood

4:56

in and took the blow from the stool to

4:58

protect him. And our

5:00

police sherts at those times, they had these epaulettes on

5:03

them. They're only fairly new at the time and

5:05

I'd lost a bit of balance and one

5:08

of the offenders then grabbed one of the epaulettes and dragged

5:10

me to the ground and I landed on all

5:13

fours and then I got pinned

5:15

to the ground. And

5:17

then I got started to get beaten, kicked

5:20

in the face and a fair

5:22

thrashing. They tried to

5:24

take my gun off me, grabbed my head and tried

5:27

to pin me and I just protected my

5:29

firearm with all my might as you do

5:31

and you're trying to do, which

5:33

then left me exposed. I couldn't cover or protect

5:36

any other part of my body or face

5:38

at that point so that I wasn't letting go of

5:41

the firearm. That offender

5:43

admitted that they were trying to get my firearm and

5:45

ordered it to execute me so

5:47

their intent was the

5:49

most serious and at that point I

5:51

didn't see it but witnesses described in court

5:54

another offender picked up a glass,

5:57

a scooter glass and smacked

5:59

it onto the floor. side of a table to make

6:02

a shaft and stepped in and then stabbed me

6:04

in the side of the head near my

6:06

temple and that not

6:09

only caused a wound in the side of

6:11

my head and the side of

6:13

my face that the glass shattering also then

6:15

caused significant lacerations to

6:18

my left ear and eyebrow and other parts

6:21

of my face. At

6:23

that point the assault continued my

6:25

partner was able to break free of the

6:27

attack that was happening on him and he

6:31

was able to lift me up and were

6:33

able to re-establish the momentum

6:37

and we settled

6:39

it and moved it outside and the

6:42

group dispersed fairly well not

6:44

before tipping over our land crews or

6:46

our troop carrier disconnecting the radios

6:49

to not give us any communication then they

6:51

made their way to the nearby river

6:53

to arm themselves with branches

6:56

and sticks to come back. So UHF

6:59

radio back in the day very isolated areas people

7:01

in the club one of the policeman's wives, the

7:03

sergeant's wife was a barmaid so she was over

7:05

to radio her husband who raised the alarm and

7:08

reinforcements came and there's a bit more of

7:10

a confrontation till that was all settled and

7:14

then we got on with dealing with

7:16

the situation. Troy

7:20

you know most coppers that

7:22

have worked on the show know that stage

7:24

you've been in the job four or five

7:27

years and whether you're in a regional area

7:29

country town or in a more urban build-up

7:31

area task force raptor we

7:33

have in the city here in Sydney they've got the

7:35

you know the riot squad and

7:37

that type of thing where we know if

7:40

something happens to one or two police

7:43

in a city like Sydney or Brisbane

7:45

or even in a major center like

7:47

Newcastle back-ups not too far away situation

7:49

like this two three four five

7:51

minutes there can be a lot of damage

7:53

a lot of injuries inflicted on police without

7:55

back-up getting there. Yeah with

7:57

our question and you know Wi-Fi or mobile

8:00

phones back in 1993 and

8:03

being isolated remote the telecommunications were

8:05

UHF radios and single sideband radios

8:07

that was on the

8:09

HF frequency so that's what we all we had

8:12

and yeah it's

8:14

challenging as how it's a next level

8:16

of danger what you're exposed

8:19

to and I don't think it's probably ever

8:21

properly appreciated that regional policing

8:23

country pleasing that's the norm in

8:26

many cases and you know getting

8:28

back up is often a significant

8:30

time that's acquired you to 30 morning

8:32

to get people out of bed who are fast asleep

8:34

dressed and kitted up in there so you know

8:37

two minutes feels like a lifetime when you you're

8:39

getting attack and the attack may

8:42

well have only lasted three or four minutes but it felt

8:44

like a lifetime and I was convinced

8:46

I was about to die that night there was no

8:48

doubt in my mind my

8:51

partner Jason I've said my

8:53

entire life saved my life that night I don't

8:55

think if he wasn't able to get me up

8:58

off all fours there's probably

9:00

only a matter of time with

9:02

the beating that I was taking that

9:05

would have lost control of my firearm and

9:07

who knows what would happen

9:09

that time so Jason saved my life and suffered

9:12

significant injuries himself as a consequence so

9:15

still great mates today and will be lifelong

9:18

mates and just did what coppers do you

9:20

know always have your mates back

9:23

did you receive anything in the way of support after

9:25

that I would say now who we are what are

9:27

we now 2024 this was

9:30

to occur over the weekend in Sydney the officers

9:32

involved would be taken off duty it would almost

9:34

be compulsory for them to go through some psychological

9:37

programs and things such as that I

9:39

doubt that there was anything of that

9:41

nature back in 93 no

9:43

no there wasn't like the the support I

9:45

got from my commander was called the patrol

9:48

commander then was inspector Roger Smith you know

9:50

he launched 20 cops from Burke came over

9:53

to take care of the arrests and the

9:56

investigation of it all after

9:58

all stitched up and you know especially the

10:00

night in observation I went

10:02

back to work and helped with the

10:04

investigation back to the scene and head all wrapped

10:06

up and banished and all the rest of it

10:09

had a dislocated jaw and a fractured

10:11

eye socket to boot that's

10:13

just what you did it was just a different

10:15

era a different time but yeah the

10:17

professional help definitely wasn't there

10:20

and and I was probably in

10:22

an era where it was just starting

10:24

to emerge as a necessity but not

10:26

sure the police and I don't even think to this very

10:28

day quite grasp or understand

10:31

how to help each other how to

10:33

have those tough conversations certainly the improvements

10:35

from 93 to the

10:39

current day are significant and lots of great

10:41

stuff being done and I saw a lot

10:43

of that investment when I ultimately became police

10:45

minister and introduced a program called

10:48

back up for life which

10:50

focused on not only looking

10:52

after those police that could no

10:54

longer go on policing that they weren't

10:56

just you know exited out the door

10:58

and forgotten implemented programs like beyond the

11:00

badge to try and keep them connected

11:02

and help them get work and and

11:04

live a healthy and prosperous life thereafter

11:07

my father was in the police force for

11:10

30 years and in 1977 he

11:12

was kidnapped and tortured on the job so

11:16

I saw what he had gone through and

11:18

suffer than and he had zero help and

11:21

it was if any complaint it was like you're a silk

11:23

you know that was the sort of mentality in his

11:25

era so I saw him struggle

11:28

from that incident throughout his life particularly the

11:30

alcohols he's refuge to to

11:33

deal with it and not much else things

11:35

are a little bit better when it

11:38

happened to me I got some fundamental

11:42

counseling sort of offerings and that sort of

11:44

thing but and even then

11:46

the culture was still you know I'm okay yeah

11:50

another spoon of cement move on so

11:53

there's a little bit offered then but I got

11:55

the support from my teammates and my colleagues they're the

11:57

ones that got me through and my good mates in

11:59

other emergency who were good friends with, they're the ones

12:01

that ultimately got me through. Troy,

12:20

going forward to 1995,

12:22

you were involved with

12:24

the investigation of Vincent

12:26

Ryan. Could you just speak

12:28

of your involvement with this case? Yeah,

12:31

sure. So I took a transfer into

12:33

the Hunter after Brie Warriner and stationed

12:35

at Currie, but

12:37

had a yearning to try

12:40

criminal investigations. So

12:42

I went through the A-List program at

12:45

SESNOC Detectives and was working out of there. An

12:48

opportunity came up for a secondment

12:50

into the Major Crime Squad Child

12:52

Protection Investigation Team, CPIT. That's had

12:54

many names over the years, and

12:57

that was for six months based in Newcastle, on

12:59

top of the Newcastle Police Station. So,

13:02

when in there I was

13:04

trained in interviewing juvenile victims.

13:08

It was called the IROC, the Initial Response Officers Course

13:10

Training, back then. Trained

13:13

because there were so many youth victims out west. That's

13:16

why I already had the training at the time. So

13:19

yeah, I was in their really busy

13:22

office, sadly. I

13:24

covered an area from Wyom to Tweed Heads. So

13:27

there were two officers for the North Region

13:29

Crime Squad in Chatswood

13:31

and Newcastle. One crime squad

13:33

split in two. One day

13:35

the boss, Sergeant Rhonda Mulligan, just came up

13:37

to me and said, there's

13:40

two guys here that need to speak to somebody,

13:42

and I think you're the right person. And

13:45

I was introduced to them. Went and

13:47

sat in the room and heard their story,

13:49

and they told me about

13:51

a sexual assault at Merriweather

13:55

in the church grounds by

13:57

Father Vincent Ryan back in 1978. and

14:01

this was 1995, so 20 years later

14:04

and detailed in amazing detail

14:07

what had happened to them and four

14:09

other alter boys. I

14:12

took their statements and

14:14

then began an investigation. Investigation

14:17

then led to just

14:19

more and more information coming out, a little

14:22

bit of publicity had

14:25

followed and other victims

14:27

then started to come forward and

14:29

suddenly I had a victim in from 1988 to

14:32

1994, one single victim

14:34

that he'd preyed upon as

14:37

well as the the Merriweather 75 crew that was sort

14:41

of two investigations that had joined and

14:45

I'd executed a search warrant as part

14:48

of those proceedings on a lot of

14:50

the diocese premises and the location

14:53

of the offenses as well and my search

14:56

warrant uncovered significant records

14:58

of not only

15:00

the knowledge of the church

15:02

and the diocese of the offending but

15:05

detailed documentation of their cover-up

15:08

of the crimes and the relocation

15:11

of the of the priest throughout

15:14

the country. Then

15:16

that gave me my third investigation for

15:19

what was a misprison of a felony was

15:21

a common-law misdemeanor at the time.

15:25

So my time was running out and that

15:27

was all done in six months so I

15:29

went and saw the boss who

15:31

had only come in after I had

15:33

been there and wasn't aware I was on so calm and he thought

15:35

I was just part of the team and I

15:38

just asked him what he wanted me to do with the brief

15:40

as to who to hand it to etc. He

15:43

just said well you're not going anywhere so

15:45

he then transferred me into the major crime

15:47

squad and I continued on

15:49

with the investigation and ultimately ended up with

15:51

35 victims

15:53

over a continual period of 20 years of

15:56

offending and he

15:58

ultimately got to the time. the

16:00

longest sentence for a child

16:02

sex offender in the state. It

16:04

was surpassed not long after by the famous Dolly

16:06

Dunn incident and

16:09

many others since, which is good. And

16:11

yeah, he was sentenced to 17 years, reduced

16:14

to 13 on appeal. And

16:18

yeah, it was an amazing

16:22

investigation to get back

16:25

in the day, again, without very limited computer

16:28

support. There was a lot of old school

16:32

investigation and a lot of beating

16:34

the path and notes and a

16:37

lot of approval to travel back

16:40

then. So you had to type out your

16:42

own transcripts of interviews and things.

16:44

So it was a job that

16:46

was all consuming, I guess, and the victims themselves,

16:49

you get a real attachment to them to make

16:51

sure that you're doing the best job you can to support

16:54

them and get them the justice they deserve.

16:56

So yeah, it was a

16:58

massive job. I had about 30 other briefs on my

17:00

desk at the time as well. So it wasn't just

17:03

one investigation I was doing. I was doing about continually

17:05

about 30. And there was four of us in the

17:07

team and we all had the same workload. So

17:11

yeah, and it was

17:13

amazing. The DPP refused to

17:16

charge the Monsignor who had orchestrated

17:19

the cover up, which

17:21

was very, very disappointing based

17:23

on his age and age of

17:25

the matter and some other justifications. I'm not

17:27

sure I still agree with

17:30

them or certainly still not happy with

17:32

them. And from

17:34

that investigation incident and the

17:36

Pandora's box opened in the Hunter, that

17:39

there was hundreds of victims

17:41

that then came forward, hundreds and hundreds of victims

17:44

that identified, I think a total of 100 priests,

17:47

brothers or lay

17:49

people within the diocese of Maitland,

17:52

Newcastle, and that

17:54

ultimately underpinned a large part

17:56

of the Royal Commission into institutional

17:58

child abuse as well. well. So normal

18:02

investigation that just went massive

18:04

and then I ironically had a lot

18:06

to do with the establishment of the Royal

18:09

Commission when I was in Parliament. I was asked to

18:11

advocate for a Royal Commission and which I

18:13

did. We had a special Commission of Inquiry

18:15

in Newcastle about it as well. So it

18:19

was like went full circle in a

18:21

lot of regards. You know, being a

18:24

comfortable first-class doing this sort of investigation,

18:26

not designated as a detective at the

18:28

time. So great support

18:31

from the Major Crime Squad team, particularly

18:33

the boss detective, Superintendent John

18:35

Ewer, a really great man, great

18:37

leader who supported me

18:39

no end and great support

18:41

from the Assistant Commissioner Peter

18:44

Walsh at the time for the northern region

18:46

who knew me from my work

18:48

and he was a great supporter of my work. He

18:51

was transferred over to northern region and our paths crossed

18:53

again. He was a wonderful support

18:55

with this investigation and probably one

18:57

of the finest police officers that

18:59

New South Wales Police Force has ever had was Assistant

19:02

Commissioner Peter Walsh. Where

19:05

do you start as

19:07

a police investigator trying to

19:09

investigate allegations of sexual crime that

19:11

are 20 years old historical sexual

19:14

crimes? What are the nuts and

19:16

bolts of that? How does that

19:18

progress forward? Yeah,

19:20

it's a great question because my

19:23

investigation has been featured in a

19:25

documentary initially on the ABC called

19:27

Revelations that Sarah Ferguson put

19:29

together. We're in episodes

19:31

one and two. During

19:34

that program I give access

19:36

to Sarah of the brief which I still have

19:38

and it's so difficult to

19:40

prove a sexual assault period. It's one

19:42

of the most difficult crimes to prove

19:44

in the court of law and it's

19:46

all about corroboration and validation of the

19:48

victim's story. So the more stuff

19:50

you can get to corroborate the

19:53

better. So I thought outside the square I got

19:56

them to draw me mud

19:58

maps for whatever better word. And

20:01

those additional bits

20:04

of corroboration with the drawings and the

20:07

other evidence I gathered just

20:09

made it a slam dunk and this guy pleaded

20:11

guilty to every offence. The

20:15

average timeframe of a

20:17

victim survivor of child sexual abuse,

20:19

the average timeframe of that person

20:21

coming forward to report their abuse,

20:23

25 years. Tragically

20:26

as you said Troy, not only

20:29

are cases of this nature notoriously

20:31

hard to investigate and prove, you're

20:34

often dealing with cases which are 20, 25 years

20:36

often even older than that.

20:39

Would that be correct? I guess the

20:41

difference with this type of case was that

20:44

the offences themselves

20:46

were so grotesque and

20:49

so appalling that

20:52

sadly and this is

20:54

the consequences of this that the

20:58

benefit you get is that there's

21:00

nothing lost because those victims never

21:02

forget and it's the smallest

21:04

details are entrenched in their memory so

21:07

they're able to provide those

21:09

to you which is horrific to

21:11

think about that those sorts

21:13

of images and memories and recollections

21:16

dominate their mind

21:18

and that's what causes so much damage is

21:20

how they get over it on top of

21:22

the guilt they feel, the shame, all

21:25

those other emotions that they deal

21:27

with and they should never feel any of those

21:29

but it's quite understandable why they do. So

21:32

the passage of time does make

21:34

it more difficult without question.

21:38

I think we were fortunate that also helped

21:40

the victim civilly because I was able

21:42

to provide all those documents of the

21:44

church's knowledge to their lawyers for the

21:47

civil proceedings and they got paid

21:49

as I understand it's all subject to

21:51

non-disclosure and that I understand it's the

21:53

largest civil payout in

21:55

the country's history for this type

21:57

of offences as it should have been. So

22:00

the passage time is a very difficult thing to

22:02

deal with but in this sort of case

22:05

the offending was so

22:07

horrific and graphic that the imagery remained

22:09

with the victims and they were able

22:11

to provide that very difficult. I'm

22:13

a stranger to these boys and the courage that

22:15

they all have, I'm still, this

22:19

many years later in awe of them, of

22:21

the courage that they had, that it

22:23

took to come and open up about

22:25

that and expose themselves to more vulnerability.

22:28

They're still great advocates and supporters for other victims

22:30

to this day and I'm still in contact

22:32

with a lot of them,

22:34

not all of the 35 because you've got to be

22:36

mindful that if you stay in contact

22:38

with them you're then still a constant reminder and doesn't

22:41

allow them to move on from it. But there's

22:43

a few that rely on staying in contact with

22:45

me to help them cope and that. So I

22:49

do that for them and will

22:51

do for as long as it's needed. They're

22:55

heroes in my mind and I just admire them

22:57

deeply. And

22:59

I'm sure Troy that feeling would be reciprocated

23:01

because they would see you as a hero

23:03

also I'm sure in their mind and so

23:06

much is that not only

23:08

are these individuals up against an

23:10

offender who abused them

23:13

terribly but they're up

23:16

against an institution who

23:18

historically has gone out

23:20

of their way to protect and hide and

23:22

move around these individuals. So not only are

23:24

you up against as a victim survivor of

23:27

these crimes and as an investigator of these

23:29

crimes, not only are

23:31

you having to prove beyond reasonable doubt

23:33

what these offenders did but you're up

23:35

against this massive, massive

23:37

organization behind them which has

23:39

for decades gone to great

23:41

lengths financially and otherwise to

23:43

hide, protect and move these

23:45

pedophile priests around. Yeah

23:47

and the ones involved in the

23:50

cover up in my investigation

23:52

have been involved in many other

23:54

cover ups and are synonymous with

23:57

the subject matter and the The

24:00

challenge I had was

24:02

that I was married in a Catholic church

24:05

and married at the

24:07

time, my

24:09

wife's family Catholic, so I

24:11

knew the church as well and trying

24:15

to comprehend just

24:18

the audacity not

24:20

from a naive point of view but those in

24:22

the position had a

24:25

flock of people who the Bible taught behaviour

24:27

asked to repent and confess and

24:31

the Catholic church puts the onus

24:33

on the parishioner to

24:36

live a good life and if you don't they

24:38

really come down on you from an

24:40

emotional point of view they put a lot of guilt trip

24:42

for whatever better word on you. Yet

24:45

for them to be acting

24:47

in this way is abhorrent. I'm not

24:49

sure there's anything worse than what they

24:51

did. They were there to

24:53

protect and guide their flock and they prayed

24:58

and abused and then after

25:00

that they abandoned their flock. They

25:02

did everything in the institution's interest not in

25:05

the victim's interest even when the victims were

25:07

known to them and I think that's

25:09

one of the hardest things for people to grapple with. Victims,

25:12

anyone investigating. So during

25:15

investigation I studied their canon law, so

25:18

the law of the church I read

25:20

the Bible extensively and

25:22

in all the interviews I had with them I just threw

25:24

it back in their face, the

25:27

hypocrisy of it all

25:29

and the Monsignor Patrick Cotta who was

25:31

the architect of

25:33

all the cover-up and

25:35

he was connected to other fathers who

25:37

have connected through to George Pell and all sorts

25:39

of things so went to that level. I've

25:45

described him as just an absolute

25:47

mongrel, he's one of the worst humans I've ever

25:49

met because when I interviewed him he was

25:53

chastising me in the interview

25:55

for having the audacity of challenging him

25:57

or questioning him when

25:59

the evidence was was so blatant and

26:02

you know, it's vernacular

26:04

to say but if ever you wanted to spit on

26:06

someone's grave it's his. Just one of

26:09

the worst humans I've ever met in my life and I've met a

26:11

few. And that was the arrogance

26:13

and that just

26:16

mystified you. You just couldn't get

26:18

it but I just kept throwing church law back

26:20

at them through canon law, through the Bible. I

26:22

quoted Matthew chapter 18 back to

26:25

them that those that

26:27

harm a child should have a

26:29

millstone hung around their neck and thrown to the depths

26:31

of the sea. That's how serious it is if you

26:33

harm a child. Yet they

26:36

had audacity to stand up on Sunday and

26:38

preach a sermon that they

26:40

were contravening just to get

26:42

some pleasure and self

26:44

gratification which is supporting. Troy,

26:48

look, there's

26:51

very few who have gone

26:53

that close to the cold face and

26:56

faced that and worked within that and

26:58

the frustration and the anger that must

27:00

well up within yourself and others that

27:02

work in that field. But goodness me,

27:05

I guess tempered a little

27:07

by the fact that it's

27:11

probably a bit of a word for it but

27:13

the success that you had as a result of

27:15

this investigation and the flow on investigations and

27:18

the Royal Commission, you

27:20

must feel for yourself and others that had

27:22

the involvement that you had some

27:24

feeling that

27:26

you had made steps towards change

27:29

and that hopefully moving forward we hear and

27:31

see and there's a hell lot less of

27:33

this going on than what there was in

27:35

the past where it was almost endemic through

27:37

that institution. Yeah,

27:40

this is completely honest with you. People

27:43

and mates and stuff when it all became

27:45

known and very public in the media was

27:47

saying to me, how do

27:50

you not just in a room thump these guys

27:52

when you hear some of the atrocities they'd commute

27:54

on? How do you hold back or how to

27:56

contain yourself from letting what's a

27:58

very natural instinct to... you know,

28:00

seek vengeance on behalf of others or

28:03

retribution or something. I

28:05

said you do that, you spoil it for

28:07

the victims, they'll get off, they eliminate any

28:09

chance they've got of justice in whatever form

28:12

of justice is out there.

28:16

And I've taken that mindset throughout

28:19

the whole involvement in this, whether it was

28:21

the investigation itself or later Special

28:23

Commission inquiries or Royal Commissions and I

28:25

used to get asked to do

28:28

a thousand media interviews or current

28:30

affairs and 730 reports and

28:32

they all wanted to tell this

28:34

story and I said no, it's

28:36

not my story, you know. And

28:40

I only participated in the Revelations one because

28:42

that was the victims asking me to. I've

28:45

always made sure it's about them so the

28:48

feedback they give me is, they're

28:51

grateful and they've asked me to participate in

28:53

Revelations. I check with them before

28:56

I've done this podcast to make sure they're happy and

28:59

which they are because they just see it

29:01

as a way to expand the awareness of

29:04

what's out there and get other thinking

29:06

about supporting victims, child sexual assault

29:08

etc. So again,

29:11

they're heroes to me because they're selfless

29:13

despite what's happened to them because they

29:15

just want it not

29:17

to happen to anyone else and that's what

29:19

drives them and that's the

29:21

only reason I sort of talk about these

29:24

investigations now is because they asked me to

29:26

for that outcome. I'm

29:28

pleased for them that there are big

29:31

progress that have been made in many areas

29:33

in this response but certainly far away from

29:36

finished or as good as it can be.

29:40

And Troy on a personal level, you know, we spoke

29:42

earlier about that exceedingly violent confrontation

29:44

in that RSL club in Baroah

29:47

and as you say, it stays

29:49

with you, it haunts you it's

29:51

something that never quite leaves you.

29:55

Could I suggest that working in investigations

29:57

such as the one that you've been

29:59

highlighting? That was 1995. Now this is close to

30:01

30 years ago. You

30:04

would carry the weight of that still close to

30:06

30 years on I would imagine. Yeah,

30:09

I do and I don't. So

30:12

I didn't have children at

30:14

the time. I have children now. So

30:17

I think the weight changed

30:20

if that makes sense. So I

30:22

was young, keen and thoroughly I

30:24

just threw myself into it and I was just

30:26

single-minded, focused to get these guys the best outcome.

30:29

And I didn't think about it in

30:31

any way about how it was affecting

30:34

me or impacting me. So there was

30:36

none zero thinking of that. I just

30:38

couldn't. I was in disbelief of what I

30:40

was learning and seeing and hearing during the

30:42

investigation itself. I guess

30:45

the the impact

30:47

and the of the enormity of it all.

30:49

So I felt it after I had my

30:51

own kids and

30:53

just you get an

30:55

extra sense of protection around them. And you

30:58

feel a bit more vulnerable now. How

31:00

am I going to protect them? I

31:02

think your behaviors can change. And the

31:04

kids had no idea why I probably was that way for a

31:06

while. And my wife probably knew

31:08

and understood, but it's hard to explain to

31:11

them as kids as to why you don't

31:14

let them do something or you're extra

31:17

cautious. But I

31:19

still sent them to Catholic school that both

31:22

baptized Catholics. And a lot

31:24

of my mates said, how the hell after all, you know, how

31:27

can you have anything to do with the church? And I said, well,

31:30

it was individuals that did

31:32

the wrong thing on behalf of the church.

31:34

There wasn't the church itself. And we were

31:37

in the bush and the Catholic

31:39

education system superior to the public one at the

31:41

time where I was transferred and had

31:44

to do the right thing by my kids and give

31:46

them the best opportunities. I guess

31:48

that only elevated the level of angst you think and

31:50

protection that you put around your own kids. So I

31:52

think it's had a bigger impact then.

31:54

And just

31:57

seeing the victims

31:59

now. If you can

32:01

catch up with them for a beer and stuff like that just

32:03

to see the fact that I have survived and they're doing okay,

32:05

it just makes you proud

32:07

of them. So you get a bit of pride

32:09

out of that, that they're going okay and you

32:11

may well have had a little bit to do

32:13

with that. Troy

32:17

2005, there was a

32:20

case that you were involved in the death of

32:22

a child who choked on a toy. Can

32:25

you walk us through that case? Yeah

32:27

and as most listeners in

32:30

policing history know that anything

32:33

you do with a child that involves

32:36

any tragedy is probably the hardest thing that

32:39

you have to do in the role if you

32:41

could deliver a death message to a parent about

32:43

a child that's really traumatic

32:45

and really difficult. The

32:48

sexual assault of children obviously horrific as

32:50

we've spoken about. The

32:52

case that I'm talking about now

32:54

was the death of a nine-year-old in Tenterfield,

32:56

something that

32:59

just had massive ramifications

33:03

on a whole community because

33:05

it was so innocuous in what it

33:07

happened and could

33:09

so easily have happened to any

33:11

one of the children there or in the country or

33:13

throughout the world to be frank, was

33:16

a little boy with his brother

33:18

playing at home on a weekend with

33:21

his mother preparing the lunch and they were

33:23

playing a game that was a cheap

33:25

version of the game Mastermind

33:29

and I'm not sure if you're familiar with the game but

33:31

it's got a table or a

33:33

board made of plastic and

33:36

it's got these little coloured pins that you put

33:38

into holes, about four or five holes and you've

33:40

got to guess the code at the other end by lining

33:42

up the pins in the correct sequence of

33:45

colours and he

33:47

was playing with that and he was

33:49

just being silly as nine-year-old boys are and he

33:52

put one of the pieces in his mouth,

33:54

just in his teeth and was showing his

33:56

mother And she did what

33:58

mothers do, she said spit that out,

34:00

don't put that in your mouth. then

34:02

she reached the to grab it off

34:04

him and as he turned he inhaled

34:07

to run and he swallowed this place

34:09

which got stuck just above his lungs

34:11

in in his throat. And

34:13

I H O two this. City's

34:16

family home. Paramedics,

34:19

Arrived. Very swiftly but did

34:21

old I couldn't. And.

34:24

Just couldn't save him. I

34:27

was just on. Judy, it's very, very normal.

34:29

Dion was called to the Tentacle Hospital. Iris

34:32

license a the incident and went into

34:34

the emergency room where the know you're

34:36

always some was they are deceased. with

34:39

his parents in. Understandable,

34:41

uncontrollable, Grace.

34:46

And. A.

34:49

Guess is case sticks out for me for it

34:51

for color. Raisins was that. The

34:53

cops will now and listeners and know when

34:56

you go. they saw situations. You.

34:58

Don't know what to say we the how of the right words are.

35:01

Now you get something. say oh hey doing what

35:03

the? It's pretty obvious I'm not doing real well.

35:06

And I really was loss for words

35:08

but I and my can introduction to

35:11

the mom science and some details on

35:13

investigation. And. I

35:15

said is, is there anything I can do and. She.

35:17

Turned around and to south screaming on

35:19

patrol when something may and ponting may

35:21

same bring my son by frame was

35:23

on back and. And

35:26

I was confronting says that point of this,

35:28

Dad. He. Has always going to

35:30

do the right job and that sort

35:32

of stuff. Was got an extra level

35:34

determination than experience in that grace. To.

35:38

Get to the bottom of it.

35:40

And the investigation itself was pretty straightforward

35:42

so far as out happened, what

35:44

happened or but in the bush some

35:47

when you do the post mortems, traveling

35:49

doctors usually the qualified one and

35:51

doctor. Came. Up from Amado

35:53

to do the post mortem and. We.

35:56

have woodsmen nor would it have wards and back in

35:58

the time that would assist the corridor in

36:00

the performance of the of the post mortem

36:03

but the Wartzman had had a

36:05

lot and he just wasn't up to the job and

36:09

Being a child. He just couldn't do it. So as

36:12

Has happened throughout history particularly in the country

36:14

is police step in and do the job. So

36:17

I was the Wartzman that assisted the doctor

36:20

to carry out the post mortem which That

36:23

was a confronting part

36:25

of the investigation, but I just

36:27

focused my mind as to Put

36:30

whatever difficulties you what I have

36:32

was feeling dealing with it to

36:34

getting an answer as to

36:36

why this happened

36:40

why they weren't able to dislodge this piece

36:42

of toy, etc and In

36:45

the where it was and once we did the

36:47

post mortem the autopsy and in the opening dark we

36:50

found that the device

36:53

itself all of the toy the piece Where

36:56

it was lodged. It just couldn't move because

36:58

of what it was made of in the nature

37:00

of of The tube that

37:02

led into the lungs The body

37:05

comes down the branches off into the two lungs Like

37:09

a why and it got stuck in one of

37:11

the lungs and that's where he suffocated blocked there

37:14

block the airway So

37:16

we extracted that and sent it away

37:19

and I'm not sure why but I just asked for

37:21

some additional tests to be done on

37:24

the product itself and And

37:26

ultimately came back and had to prepare a report

37:28

for the coroner and for a coronal hearing But

37:32

I didn't do it just as to the cause

37:34

of death and here there. I actually expanded the

37:36

investigation as to How

37:38

do I get this product off the shelves? So

37:40

at least we're eliminating something that's dangerous

37:43

away from Sale and this is

37:45

a toy that you wouldn't buy at a

37:47

major retail. You'd buy mastermind there This is one that you

37:49

buy at a cheap shop the two

37:51

dollar shops, etc. So Just

37:54

investigate it two-pronged to explain the

37:56

death but also then to build

37:58

a case to get this product

38:01

removed from the shelves and to launch

38:07

an investigation into how it happened to stop it ever being imported

38:09

again and products of this type. I'm

38:12

really happy to say that the coroner supported

38:14

me and made significant recommendations

38:16

in that regard and ultimately

38:18

the product is no longer available in Australia.

38:20

You can't buy this thing. So hopefully

38:24

some lives may have been saved or at least

38:26

not placed in jeopardy. It

38:29

just shows that for me a learning out

38:31

of that was that you can do more in the

38:33

police and your ability if you think

38:35

outside the square to have

38:38

a bigger impact or try and you know do more

38:40

in the prevention space not just deal with the report

38:43

put it and get the job done tick a

38:45

box sort of thing just look what else can

38:47

be done what else can you do to contribute

38:49

to public safety and that's

38:52

why that investigation sticks in my mind. Troy

38:55

the stories that you've told the experiences that you've

38:57

had there will be so many listening that will

38:59

take so much from it. I

39:02

want to thank you so much for coming along

39:04

but also very sincerely thank you for the 22

39:06

years of service to the folks

39:08

of New South Wales 20 of which was

39:10

in those regional towns and small

39:13

country areas in New South Wales and it's just

39:15

been an absolute pleasure to have a chat to

39:17

you Troy. Thanks for dropping in. You're

39:19

very welcome really appreciate the time and wish you all

39:21

the very best and been a pleasure to serve. Crime

39:28

Insiders Detectives is a listener

39:30

original production. It's

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hosted by me, Rint Sanders produced

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