0:00

A Warning. This

0:06

episode contains references to

0:08

suicide. As well, there

0:11

are graphic descriptions of violence

0:13

against women and sexual assault.

0:16

If you're in danger and need support, dial 1800RESPECT

0:18

on 1800 737 732. If

0:26

it's an emergency and you're in

0:28

Australia, dial 000 or contact Lifeline

0:30

on 13 11 14. You

0:40

know, I'm former police officer Brent

0:42

Sanders. And for

0:44

the past 25 years, I've

0:46

dedicated myself to sharing what I've learnt

0:48

on the force to the

0:50

Australian public, so they can

0:53

better protect themselves from falling victim

0:55

to crime. So

0:57

with the help of some of

0:59

the most respected current and former

1:01

detectives and high ranking law enforcement

1:03

agents, I'm going to pull back

1:06

the curtain on what life is

1:08

like on the force and what

1:10

they've learnt about how crime and

1:12

criminals really work. These

1:16

are real stories from

1:18

real detectives. This

1:22

week, a former New South Wales

1:24

police officer who's seen the worst of

1:26

the worst. I just

1:28

see the drug trade as kind

1:31

of a war that

1:34

perhaps we don't really need to have. Brett

1:37

Stephens joined the force as a

1:39

fresh-faced 21-year-old. 13

1:42

years later, he stepped away from policing

1:44

and chose a different path. But

1:47

those 13 years left a

1:49

mark on Brett, as policing does

1:51

to so many people. That's

1:54

how bad I'd got. And

1:56

cold. I had no empathy for

1:59

anyone. We'll

2:02

talk about the step he took after the

2:05

force but to understand the type of character

2:07

breaders we'll go back to a few of

2:09

the stories that shaped him into who he

2:11

is today. To

2:13

start we're going to the King's

2:15

Cross in Sydney in the late 1980s. So

2:23

Korean John was the former Twakundo

2:26

champion for the Korean Army

2:29

and he had moved to Australia and

2:31

he's gone, I can make money working

2:33

or I can be a standover man

2:35

for the clubs, so porkies

2:38

or those places and he definitely brutalised

2:40

some guys who needed to be thrown

2:42

out but he used to go a

2:44

bit overboard and he also was

2:47

working for the Triads. So he had

2:49

a reputation as a really hard

2:51

man, justifiably deserved.

2:54

And so one day and we were looking for

2:56

him the day before we were looking for this

2:58

guy because he had slipped the throat of a

3:00

Japanese restaurant owner and then knocked out a patron

3:03

and walked out the door with a patron. So

3:05

we get these two couples come

3:07

running in, they've got blood all over the guys

3:09

and the wives are sort of carrying him in

3:12

and they said look some Asian guy, they

3:14

almost ran him over, they bit the horn

3:16

and he smashed the window and beat up

3:19

both men and they've left the car in

3:21

Darlingers Road which is totally choked Darlingers Road.

3:23

To a standstill. To a standstill. So

3:25

the boss goes to these B crew, he goes boys

3:27

just go up there and see what's going on right

3:30

and so they're gone for about five minutes and you

3:32

hear, this is 11.1, King's Cross

3:35

11.1, can we have backup

3:38

outside near porkies nightclub

3:41

and so you hear that, it goes quiet, then

3:43

can we have more backup? Can we

3:45

have more backup? Can we have more? He keeps

3:47

saying this and the boss goes what the hell are they

3:49

doing? Can you go up and see what they're doing? And

3:52

The whole street is choked, the traffic

3:55

is all choked, and there are hundreds

3:57

of people. And there's a ring for

3:59

the people. Bomb A Building is

4:01

right. right? A ring of

4:03

police. We've. Guess. Who Green

4:05

John standing rock the middle of the ring

4:08

for the so they formed the ring but

4:10

nobody's doing anything. a kites and most of

4:12

these guys who have attended they're actually from

4:14

other stations so the not quite so I'm

4:16

and that's when I also say that to

4:18

be going to work in apply for the

4:20

Ebola, be physically capable. To. Work in

4:22

this topic varmint because it is

4:24

very physical A So I woke

4:26

up. And I step into this

4:29

ring and then courage on obviously has been

4:31

looking round a silly realize or step into

4:33

the ring or yelling okay how my get

4:35

a fake despite everything the police his reputation

4:37

is on the line he not just them.

4:39

it's a month we didn't have sizes or

4:42

icy or anything or so that so we

4:44

can be fought. so what would I do?

4:46

how would I defy disguised as only one

4:48

wilde gonna really the fight is going on

4:50

at seat so I just looked at him.

4:53

And he finishes do is caught any

4:55

look enemies like already ago Korean john.

4:59

You're. Under Arrest. This lesson that Japs wrote.

5:02

We're going to put handcuffs oh yeah, and

5:04

I'll look over his shoulder. And.

5:06

He's gone. To. Thirty said and

5:09

would bang. And drop them. And.

5:11

With the lead him again it goes. All

5:14

the crowds yelled at they will goes quiet.

5:16

And. Is of not about. I.

5:18

Was always the most incredulous person there that

5:20

of the of the about that we just

5:22

like handcuff him and with lifted the mountain

5:24

just caring for right in that room in

5:27

the back of the trucks. The. Point

5:29

he's he's that the perception of

5:31

every one is that you don't

5:33

miss with the cops, the King's

5:35

Cross, not even those just maybe

5:37

that's the perception and that is

5:39

a perception you need when you're

5:41

going up against real very hard

5:43

mean by and I give for

5:45

example the way respect there was

5:47

no hard feelings. Who. is this

5:50

what had to be done right and

5:52

i've always worked during the course of

5:54

my life working with gangsters and everyone

5:56

else the given respect i think that

5:58

is important lot of these guys had

6:00

no respect when they've grown up. They've grown up

6:02

in very violent homes and so on. They come

6:04

out, they are a product of their environment. I

6:08

will give them respect. I think

6:10

that's a really good way to put it

6:12

mate and I take so much from what

6:14

you're saying here, Brett. The

6:16

only way in those environments that you

6:18

garner respect from those individuals is to

6:20

do exactly what you've done. Now there

6:23

would be many who have

6:25

never set foot in those

6:27

environments who would perhaps take

6:29

a lofty view of that, oh well that's ridiculous, you're

6:31

dropping to their level and stuff. But the

6:33

reverses, the next coppers that

6:36

go in, the violence level will increase. Absolutely.

6:38

When I worked with the

6:41

Bloods and Crips and the Norteño-Sireño gang members, I

6:43

actually ended up coming quite, I had a lot

6:45

in common with them. I believe

6:47

in honor, courage. They do too. They're

6:50

not phony tough. Nothing worse than having

6:52

a phony tough person. They

6:55

had all these qualities that I had too,

6:59

which was bizarre for them and me.

7:02

Violence becomes kind of

7:04

nothing to you. I'm

7:07

not trying to sound like I'm brave

7:09

or anything, it's actually a process where

7:11

you become so acclimatized to the adrenaline

7:13

rush and all that stuff. After a

7:16

while, particularly in the cross, there was

7:18

no adrenaline rush. Someone's

7:20

got a gun, so by the time

7:22

you get to the TRG, you're already

7:24

emotionally in the right space.

7:26

You're not going to go and shoot someone

7:29

just because they're doing something dumb. You can

7:32

usually get a feel of people who are going to

7:34

actually try to kill you as opposed

7:36

to maybe just trying to threaten you. When

7:38

we talk about, Brett, the

7:41

necessity of having

7:43

to step up to the plate, it's

7:46

a necessary capacity at the

7:48

time. It's a necessary evil. You've worked

7:50

in the cross, you've been on the

7:52

TRG and it's part of an

7:56

armor that you put around yourself

7:58

in those environments. The question I'd

8:00

like to ask, Brett, is once

8:03

you go through that and you come out the other side

8:06

and you look back at that, does

8:09

your view change? Is

8:12

there a futility almost to it that I

8:16

found this myself? There was a lightning

8:18

bolt moment for me when in

8:22

a situation where in

8:24

a gang house where these

8:26

little kids came running out,

8:29

tiny little ones and long story

8:31

short I was struck with this

8:35

realization that we're just part of

8:37

this cycle and what

8:39

we're doing works for tonight, it'll work for tomorrow

8:42

but if I came back here in 20 years,

8:45

that little one and nappies would be the one and the

8:48

facial tattoos and for

8:51

me and I'm not putting this on

8:53

anyone else except myself, looking

8:55

back it was like that feeling of it's almost

8:58

futile, it's not really achieving too much other

9:01

than the immediacy of what happens at that

9:03

moment. What are your thoughts on that, Brett?

9:06

I actually see the whole thing as

9:08

the whole war on drugs, the whole,

9:12

it's pointless. I mean these

9:14

young men need status, status

9:17

and have a good life and build a family and

9:19

their genetics go on, right? That's a

9:21

fundamental basic human

9:24

dimension but we've

9:26

decided to ship all the manufacturing that these

9:28

guys had jobs to do which were good

9:30

jobs. They've all gone so

9:32

next thing the cartels came in and go

9:35

hey, why don't you sell this, this is

9:37

your new job and to work in that

9:39

world where you better be hard and strong,

9:41

right? Because the gang has a territory and

9:43

the gang has to be the most brutal

9:46

gang to hold that territory or another gang

9:48

will come in and take that territory and

9:50

guess what? You've got no way of supporting

9:52

your family and so the

9:54

police, the courts, we're all just stuck in

9:56

the middle, you know, turning this over.

10:00

these men need a

10:02

job to give them status. Without that

10:05

it's all

10:07

a waste of time. Okay and all we

10:09

can do is holdable, build more prisons. I mean

10:11

America went from 200,000 in the 70s to 2.4 million

10:13

prisoners. Has

10:19

anyone seen the correlation? It's interesting and

10:21

we were talking off air. I was

10:23

chatting to a inspector from New Zealand

10:25

Police who went through the academy just

10:27

a couple of months after me

10:30

who was saying that New Zealand's

10:33

had a 75% increase in gang membership

10:36

in the last five years. And so I guess

10:39

where I'm going, well I'm not sure where I'm going with this

10:41

but we think that we're getting

10:43

on top of it. We think if we build more prisons, if

10:45

we do this we're going to reduce

10:48

this but it's in many ways the

10:51

facts would say almost the opposite. It's cool

10:53

being the gang. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's cool.

10:56

Yeah. Use your status. If you're a

10:58

warrior elite, if I'm a blood or

11:00

a crib, I mean they don't just let anybody.

11:03

You've got to be a warrior, right? And

11:05

so kids want to be you. They don't want to

11:08

be the cop. They want to be you, right?

11:10

Even though you're going to have a short life. They've got short

11:12

life strategies, right? So they're not going to be around for a

11:14

long time. They're either going to be locked up

11:17

for a long time or they're going to be dead or they're going

11:19

to be maimed. Brett,

11:21

let's go to 1988. You

11:24

received a call with regard to

11:26

a woman being kidnapped. Can

11:29

you walk us through that case? I

11:31

just started work. We're standing in a

11:33

station that came over Kings Cross One

11:35

or any car in the vicinity. A

11:37

woman's being kidnapped and dragged into this derelict

11:40

hotel which is just up near the Kings

11:42

Cross Hotel in Victoria Street. Got

11:44

on the radio and said, yeah, Kings Cross One.

11:46

I said to the boys, you take the truck.

11:48

We'll all run. There's about four of us. And

11:50

we just ran up the street piling through people.

11:53

Because even though it's seven o'clock in the morning

11:55

and it's a beautiful sunny day, there's still hundreds

11:57

of people on Cuddiness Road. Right? We're

12:00

just pushing through people. When we

12:02

get up to this derelict hotel, there's a guy lying

12:04

out the side of it. He's got a broken leg

12:07

that broke his leg and they've dragged the girl he's

12:09

with into this hotel. There's

12:11

a few guys standing there who'd been with him

12:14

but the guy in question has disappeared. I go

12:17

in, we have to split up because it's a big

12:19

hotel. It's about four or five stories.

12:21

I'm by myself and I come down and I hear

12:24

this pitch

12:26

black by the way inside, even though it's sunny

12:28

outside, pitch black inside and in

12:30

the torch and I come down and I hear this

12:34

soft faint

12:36

sobbing kind of thing. I come down,

12:38

then I realise that the

12:40

sobbing's coming from the bathroom. I

12:42

go over to the bathroom and I find her. So

12:45

I get other cops that come down

12:49

and I was very uncomfortable. I didn't want

12:51

to touch her. The instinct was to tell

12:54

her that you're there but

12:56

it's a

13:02

bit weird. It's alright mate. I've never

13:04

had that reaction before. Just think about it. Just

13:07

take a breath mate. It's alright. I've

13:09

never had an emotional response

13:14

before. What

13:19

do you think caused that? No.

13:23

When did you last chat about this one

13:25

mate? A

13:29

while ago? Yeah, not for a long time. Yeah,

13:34

something about it, say down there? Yeah,

13:36

I think it was the way she looked at me. I just

13:39

suddenly pitched at it. I don't usually pitch at

13:41

that. Right, right, right. Just back there for a

13:43

moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alright. Just

13:45

when you're ready? Yeah, I'm good. Alright,

13:48

so she looked

13:50

at me and

13:54

her face was unrecognizable. It

13:56

had been, Everything

13:58

was broken, shattered. They're.

14:00

Not deal with have a right victims and

14:02

on something right? But this was beyond the

14:04

pale. right? And. So.

14:08

They. Come down, Put on a

14:10

stretcher, get around mirror out and then

14:12

we come on the daylight. Even worse,

14:14

this old aboriginal guy. Who's.

14:16

Down from the north. And.

14:19

Was this kind of loitering? Always Paypal?

14:23

This guy's arm. He.

14:25

Just.will Galapagos if that on not put up

14:27

with his. And he walks

14:29

off and I'll go grab him. And.

14:31

Die. And. He goes all

14:33

show you where he is. He's got a

14:35

knife. Yields. Even city kill

14:37

you if you can become the answered. A.

14:40

Guy: Where is he. Up to these

14:42

is in a tunnel. So. The

14:44

Dog a tunnel. In this

14:46

all dearly out till. I

14:50

got they are Follow this guy up. Much

14:53

he comes up with a cup level Blacks. And.

14:57

He a years is in they are did nothing

14:59

the very. Just. Carpet

15:01

on the floor. And also my is

15:03

nothing in it. He goes under school. When.

15:06

I pulled that carpet back. And.

15:09

Is a hole. In the

15:11

floor. Day. Was you

15:14

just smelling straight away. right?

15:17

And the hold any better be a guy. The.

15:19

Tunnels about one have made his high spirits

15:22

bet that hi to go to Crouch and

15:24

Monkey Cruel Fruit I'm annoyed came down there

15:26

was some of their clothes flowing the so

15:28

he bought a close up odds. A bunch

15:30

of pile of garbage up in the corner

15:32

in the room is kind of about the

15:35

size of this room. right? But it's.

15:37

There and he's dug a hole

15:39

for the concrete wall. And.

15:42

The makes what makes what makes one so they

15:44

did this is what they worked on right and

15:46

so the do i do is they can get

15:48

out and if dug a hole so you to

15:50

dance the isn't any be able to get out

15:52

of the building say may have already gone but

15:54

this is a really strong smell sumptuous so and

15:56

of coming about the busily up i had the

15:59

quarter before come from. the, you

16:01

know, because you don't, you might be just standing there waiting for me on

16:03

the other side of the wall. And I

16:06

go into this next one. It's very dark,

16:08

sort of quiet still. And

16:10

then I'm, and then

16:13

I thought, you know what, I can't

16:15

smell it anymore. The stench. I

16:18

wonder if he's back in that room. So

16:20

I went back to the room behind

16:22

me and I looked across at

16:25

this pile of rubbish in the

16:27

corner. But next thing I

16:29

saw this little ruffle and this eye piece looking

16:32

into the torch and

16:36

he's quickly rolled over. So

16:39

if he had lent forward dead, and

16:41

so I handcuffed him and

16:43

then we dragged him out and I got up and

16:46

he just lying on the floor there, face

16:48

up, and everyone's just looking at him and

16:52

I look at the leachie and he's gone. Okay.

16:57

And then we went

16:59

back to the station, the deez came, took

17:01

him away and then we got

17:03

word that she's afraid. So

17:06

they had released him. She wouldn't charge

17:08

him. So you have no complainants. So you

17:11

got no offender. Just to take

17:13

a couple of steps back, the girl that he

17:16

abducted, kidnapped was with her

17:18

boyfriend and he's, this guy

17:20

has attacked her. You were saying, I think he had

17:23

a broken leg. The guy was this all part

17:25

of the same attack. So they've walked up a lane

17:27

and from the side, there

17:31

was a chair and there's a sort

17:33

of a window there, but from the side, it

17:35

doesn't look there. It licked the hotel and they've

17:37

gone, hey, we're coming up and partying. They're obviously

17:39

a bit pissy. So, and he's from Sweden. She's

17:42

a local girl and she's climbed up and

17:44

he's climbed up and then they pushed the guy out

17:46

and he fell back and broke his leg. Okay. And

17:49

then they've dragged this guy's drag off.

17:51

And when I was coming down the

17:54

hall in the dark,

17:57

what the first indication on you. why

18:00

I was where I was going was there

18:02

was this glint of blood all over the

18:04

wall from a

18:06

hand and there was hair in

18:09

it as well. Her hair, long hair

18:12

was mixed in it. So and

18:14

then I found her in the shower

18:17

thing. So he's dragged into the

18:19

Sterilicked Hotel, a hotel that he

18:21

clearly lives in, in some

18:23

sort of hovel and then

18:25

he's decamped, he's taken off. In

18:28

memory, what was the timeframe between that

18:30

occurring and you arriving on site? No,

18:33

it must be like minutes. Right. That

18:35

all happened that quick. It happened that

18:37

quick. You know, the

18:40

attacks, they don't take long. Usually

18:43

like a few minutes and it's over, but

18:46

it's the unbelievable barbarity.

18:48

I think it was just

18:50

the brutality, the unbelievable brutality. To the

18:52

point that, yeah, that's what I stood

18:54

out. Right. And so

18:56

you've got intense emotions running

18:59

in that. And to also

19:01

think that comps don't get emotional.

19:06

But I had, I was on a journey where,

19:10

like, I don't really get upset about these things.

19:12

I mean, I can't even believe I got upset

19:14

then about that. And I think I

19:16

was really because maybe when I do have these

19:18

memories about it, you don't go into too much

19:20

detail. But if you're having a big discussion about

19:22

it, yeah, suddenly when her face turned around and

19:25

looked at me in the torchlight, that's

19:27

why I have the image and I just got a

19:29

bit emotional about it. Yeah. But

19:32

generally speaking, doesn't

19:35

bother me, you know. And

19:38

I did have one woman, I had a woman jump off a building

19:40

and land right in front of me when I was

19:43

on patrol and, and

19:45

eight stories. And she hit

19:47

the pavement and then she lifts her head and

19:50

looks at me and was trying to

19:52

speak to me and then slowly faded.

19:56

Couldn't speak. Nothing came out. And then she

19:58

dies like that. So that's a,

20:01

you have these moments where watching people die

20:03

or get shot or whatever is one thing,

20:05

but when they're looking you in the eye,

20:07

is they going? Well that's...

20:11

It's interesting too, Brett, you know,

20:13

you talk about your exposure to

20:16

this type of thing. This case that we're talking

20:18

about, it's 1988,

20:20

that's 35 years. Yeah, yeah,

20:22

a long time ago. And

20:25

can I just say, and I'm just playing devil's advocate here,

20:28

you know, you and I know

20:30

that in the coppers there's

20:32

stuff you see over and over, whether it's this

20:34

stuff, whether it's fatal car

20:36

accidents, everything, and we

20:40

can say it doesn't affect us, but here

20:42

we are 35 years down the track

20:46

and I say with absolute due respect, this

20:48

is still buried within you to the point where

20:50

you had to take a breather

20:52

a few moments ago because it came back to you. Mm

20:56

hmm. Stuff stays with you, doesn't it? Mm hmm. Some

20:58

of it. Brett,

21:16

I'm going to take you, if I could, to 1992. You'd

21:20

been in the TRG Tactical Response Group for a period of

21:22

time. I think you may have just left at this time.

21:25

You're living in Bondi with your wife and

21:28

there's an incident which occurs out the front

21:30

of your house. Yeah,

21:32

so I just

21:34

got home from

21:37

work and we lived one

21:39

street back from Bondi Beach, right? And it's right

21:41

in where all the shops are and there's a

21:43

Commonwealth Bank drop box just to my

21:45

left, basically, from my house. So I live

21:48

in the Terrace House. We're two

21:50

boys and my wife's there and we've got

21:52

the front bedroom which oversees the street. And

21:55

my wife, she's dead

21:57

asleep, she sits up and she goes... I

22:00

just had a dream I was being shot at right?

22:02

It's actually said to me right and

22:05

what happened was because I'm getting changed and I'm

22:07

taking the gun out and everything I say we're

22:10

in Bondi Pam the boss said nothing happens here

22:12

that's what the actual boss only been there for

22:14

like a week and

22:17

and so next thing she lies

22:20

down and it goes bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang

22:22

bang bang bang bang bang so about done

22:24

the shots I think all up so

22:26

look out of the window as I'm

22:29

taking the cup so I just cuffed the gun

22:31

up you know maybe used to put the cuff

22:33

the gun the cuffs on the weapon the

22:35

secure the weapon because you've got kids right so

22:37

I'm undoing it and I'm looking out

22:40

at this car sitting in the middle of

22:42

the road in this small street on me

22:44

in the jacks avenue and

22:46

I look across there and this is guy coming towards

22:49

us and the guy in the car is going get in get in the other

22:51

blakers I've been hit I've been hit and

22:53

he's got the pistol in his hand and so I'm

22:56

getting that night I have to I've

22:58

got speed loader so I speed load it and all

23:00

that sort of thing and I come out the guys

23:02

drops on the road and when I come out in

23:04

the body armor in a pair of shorts the

23:08

the guy looks at me he takes off

23:10

in the Holden Commodore station wagon and

23:13

I roll over and this this guy's looked at me

23:15

and then he's he's not moving so I roll over

23:17

and come over to him you

23:20

know gun out because I don't know who

23:22

else is involved in this just one guy

23:24

and then I see a security guard so

23:26

he's further up the street so basically the

23:28

guys were doing a drop at the

23:30

drop box and for them from the

23:32

Bonde hotel and he's fired at these guys put

23:34

all these bullet holes in this windows around the

23:36

guys and the security guards got up and they've

23:39

had a gun battle he

23:41

got hit clipped his heart but he's still able to

23:43

keep going for a period of time uh

23:46

so I come over there and I roll him over

23:48

on his back gang tattoos and that

23:50

type of thing sort of looks at me

23:52

for a second but then clouds over and then he's

23:54

doing the arganal breathing um which

23:57

is the the body actually trying to suck in

23:59

oxygen he was gone

24:01

and then he dies. So

24:04

I'm looking at it and I

24:06

look up and these girls are crying, these

24:08

young girls are crying because there's only about a living o'clock.

24:11

And I look at these girls going, what

24:13

are you crying about? And I look up at my wife and

24:17

she's looking at me and I didn't

24:21

just say anything to her. I just got up and

24:24

I walked in, grab a

24:26

beer out of the fridge, put the tennis on

24:28

and I sit down and watch the tennis. And

24:31

I've got a beer and I've got a gun on my

24:34

hand, my gun, but I'm going to be, I'm just

24:36

watching the tennis. And

24:39

my wife comes in and

24:41

then looks at me and I'm

24:44

really weird. And then she walks

24:46

over to the bedroom door and

24:48

she goes, you're an asshole.

24:52

And then slams the door and I

24:54

looked at her and went, what's wrong

24:57

with her? That's

25:00

how bad I'd got and

25:02

cold. I had no empathy for

25:05

anyone, right? She's someone's kid,

25:07

really. I

25:10

mean, and then when I end up working with the

25:12

gang members, the Bloods and Crips

25:15

and the LaTunias and Srinios, and

25:17

then I actually saw them crying.

25:23

You know, someone said their best mate's been killed

25:26

and they made him human. And

25:28

that's when I went, oh

25:31

God, I am

25:33

an asshole. And

25:37

I can understand where

25:40

policing the hard places, you

25:43

lose your humanity, right? You

25:45

lose your humanity. But

25:47

that's a kind of a protective mechanism maybe. But

25:49

I don't really think too much about it. I

25:52

think it's just you get used to it, right?

25:54

It becomes nothing to you. I mean,

25:56

I should turn up shootings in LA

25:59

and content. in all these areas

26:01

and everyone's just standing out. No

26:03

one's crying, you know, except if you had a

26:05

family member, if they knew them, but everyone's kind

26:07

of just hanging around, you know, just looking at

26:09

it. Because you're a nerd

26:11

to it, it becomes so normal. You

26:15

just become a very brutal person.

26:18

And I don't know how my wife put up

26:20

with me. Mate, could I

26:22

say clearly, you don't have to be working in East

26:25

LA to become desensitized to that. You've been

26:27

10 years in the job at that stage,

26:30

just come off TRG. And

26:32

you yourself, you had trouble getting

26:35

your head around why those girls were crying.

26:37

Yeah, why are you gonna, what's wrong? What are

26:39

you crying about again? And then sitting

26:41

there watching the tennis mate having

26:44

a beer, having just nurse to blow, who's

26:46

died outside and looking at your wife going,

26:49

well, did you find, because

26:51

it's a great story that you tell, Brett,

26:53

and it forces you,

26:55

I guess, to see it through the

26:58

perspective, in the sense of your wife. And

27:01

suddenly, does it suddenly dawn on you

27:03

like, oh, yeah, that's perhaps

27:05

not normal, I

27:07

need to address this? Is that how you push

27:09

through the other time? Yeah, I didn't see that

27:12

for a long time. Yeah, yeah. But I saw

27:14

it later. Do you go

27:16

back to that incident, into that night,

27:18

as the point at which you're face-to-face,

27:20

your wife's going, you're on another planet,

27:22

you're going, what's your problem? I'm

27:25

sure she's got an angel sitting over

27:27

her shoulder, maybe her grandmother, like, wish-bringing his

27:29

foot crap. He's at the pub,

27:31

he's not on the way home. Yeah,

27:34

and yeah, she picks it out. But there

27:36

is, I've just seen some

27:38

really freaky stuff in my life, I think, sometimes,

27:40

that I'm willing to say that, who knows? That's

27:43

why I try and stay on the straightenera nowadays,

27:46

and not upset people

27:48

too much, who knows? Because I don't want Karma coming

27:50

back and biting me. You

27:53

said that at the time, you

27:55

didn't sort of realise that

27:58

that decent citation for yourself... was

28:00

any issue whatsoever but it was later

28:03

that it sort of dawned on you. Just

28:05

walk me through that. How much later and what

28:07

was it that made

28:10

you realise I know maybe... It was a few years later and

28:12

it was a few years later and it

28:14

really came down to having that relationship with

28:16

the gang members themselves and then seeing them

28:19

as human beings, not just

28:21

seeing them as another guy

28:23

who dies, another guy bites the dust. Seeing

28:28

there was depth to

28:30

them and it's not something

28:32

you should really want to

28:34

celebrate. When I think

28:37

about the heroin addicts,

28:39

really we were blocking

28:41

up and whatever and I think about

28:44

the girls you were talking about and

28:47

I just hope that there's not a

28:49

cop like me around if

28:52

my kids become addicted to

28:54

drugs because I'd want something

28:56

to freaking help them, not persecute them. I've

29:00

changed my view on

29:03

information and all of that. I

29:09

just see the drug trade as kind

29:12

of a war

29:14

that perhaps we don't really need

29:17

to have and I would rather

29:19

if people become addicted, let's treat it but

29:22

really understand that and really

29:24

it's just giving employment to these guys.

29:26

I think eventually someone, I know they're

29:29

already doing it with marijuana but they'll

29:31

probably end up doing it with cocaine or something else

29:33

like that because they're not going to let the trade

29:35

go. I'll just

29:37

take you back to a point you made, a comment

29:39

you made that I thought

29:41

was an interesting one that you've

29:45

got kids yourself. You said that

29:47

you just hope that if one of your kids had a

29:49

problem with drugs or something that they

29:51

didn't end up being dealt with with a cop like you.

29:54

It seems to go hand in hand with the

29:56

realisation you had working with the gangs that

29:58

once you meet them and you... you realise that they're

30:01

real people and they have aspirations and

30:03

they're just taking a path which is different to you

30:05

and I and others. Did

30:07

you mind going back to the young Polynesian

30:09

bloke dying outside your house? You

30:12

mentioned before with someone's son

30:14

and we know how wonderfully

30:18

close those Polynesian families

30:21

are and the

30:23

death of one of their young ones, the

30:25

black cloud that it would bring to that massive, extended

30:29

Polynesian family but as

30:31

you quite rightly said it's very easy to look beyond that at

30:33

the moment and go, oh he's just a gangster, he's put himself

30:35

in the wrong place at the wrong time. But

30:38

now the different part here,

30:40

the better part I don't know, Kula, what you will is

30:42

saying well hang on. Well amongst the gangs

30:44

though, I mean they at

30:46

least, they celebrate their

30:50

death. I mean they're usually just killing

30:52

each other. This is when

30:54

they end up shooting kids and getting

30:56

away, it's just dumb. They

30:58

shoot each other, they shoot each other. And

31:00

we had one where the

31:03

gangsters are shooting outside the house and

31:05

the dads open the door and he's got a

31:07

Sunday dinner, he's all dressed up for

31:09

it, he gets hit in the chest, he

31:12

bleeds out and the

31:14

family's there, the grandparents, oh my

31:16

god, kids. He's in LA, he's in LA. And

31:22

just two dumb drug

31:24

dealers having to shoot out on the

31:26

street. So

31:28

Brett here we are, 2024, you've been out

31:30

of the job for quite a number of

31:33

years. Can you just give us a sense

31:35

of where you're at now in your

31:39

working life and what you've taken from those

31:42

years police? Well

31:45

the police has given me the ability

31:47

to be really good at dealing with

31:49

and understanding chaos and so I set

31:51

up a company with my brother who

31:54

also used to be in the cross and then with

31:56

the fire rescue and we've set up a company which

31:59

is is

32:01

national and international dealing

32:04

with crisis and emergency risk management

32:07

for organisations, which

32:10

is everything from the healthcare industry,

32:12

hospitals, aged care to

32:14

commercials, Sydney Water where we run

32:17

massive exercises for them. With

32:20

FireRescue, I worked

32:22

up in the mines and got accredited

32:24

as a FireFire, FireRescue, Industrial

32:27

FireRescue. With the Army, I

32:29

went into the Medical Corps and I'm now a

32:31

combat medic with the Army and actually saved some

32:33

lives, which is really a great thing. And

32:37

also had a great opportunity

32:39

to train young soldiers going to Afghanistan

32:41

and Iraq what it's really going

32:44

to be like when people are trying to kill you. And

32:47

you've got to be prepared emotionally

32:49

and physiologically for that process, which

32:51

is what I bring into my

32:54

business emergency management. And I go, it's not

32:57

just about the theory, it's the physiological responses

32:59

that your body has to these

33:01

type of crisis, which is kind of

33:03

telling you to run away really quick

33:05

or fight, right? Or some

33:07

people just shut down. And also

33:09

how bosses need to

33:11

be able to be able to

33:13

gather their thoughts and have processes

33:15

in place to make systems work

33:18

for you and your

33:20

people work for you rather than just the

33:22

chaos overwhelm you and cost

33:24

you brand reputation of things like that.

33:26

And that's from international hotels.

33:29

I've been to Russia and I've worked

33:31

in China and Japan and all

33:33

across the world,

33:36

which also in some places

33:39

actually took me to dealing with local

33:41

gangs, which were impacting

33:43

on business operations. In other words,

33:46

liaising with the guys to directly protect

33:49

the business. That's an asset to

33:51

you, right? Which meant, you

33:53

know, some of the family members get some work and all that

33:55

type of thing. Okay, this is

33:57

what you do. All experiences that I have... there

34:00

had prepared me for that capability.

34:03

Whether it be in the Army or for my

34:05

business world, you've got to be

34:07

of value to people. And

34:10

with the Army, once I went out to support

34:12

the commandos and the SAS Sergeant rang me in

34:14

and he says, oh yeah, Sergeant

34:17

Stevens, what value do you bring me? Right?

34:20

And really makes you reflect on something about yourself right at

34:22

the moment. And I go, oh, this is my experience and

34:24

this is what I do. Because I have a car in

34:26

30 minutes to pick you up. And

34:28

so there is life outside the emergency

34:30

services and police and everything. You've just

34:33

got to understand what value do you

34:35

bring the organisations that

34:37

you want to deal with and

34:40

don't expect them

34:42

to know that. You've got to basically sell yourself.

34:45

And you want to be, I see the work health

34:47

and safety, the risk management space. I mean, that's a

34:49

really good space, cyber crime and all those areas. But

34:53

if you're able to do everything rather

34:55

than just one thing or be with

34:57

a group of guys who are also

34:59

over for strengths, you provide more value

35:01

to the organisation, then rather just be

35:03

a single consultant. Yeah. Yeah.

35:06

Well, look, Brett, I just want to thank you so

35:08

very much for coming into the studio here in Sydney

35:10

today. It's been an intriguing chat

35:12

with you and I'm sure that it's

35:14

taken those that listen to this podcast

35:17

into a world that most have

35:20

only ever really seen from the lecture,

35:22

the lounge rooms, watching shows

35:24

on TV, working in the cross through

35:27

the 80s, 90s, the tactical response groups, some of

35:29

those tough days in Bondi. And

35:31

of course, since then you work within the gangs

35:34

both here and overseas. Brett, I just want to thank you

35:36

for your honesty, for taking

35:39

us into those environments and thank

35:42

you, mate, so much for that 13 years

35:44

of service. And it sounds like it's doing

35:46

good stead for the environments that

35:48

you're working now here and overseas. So thanks so much

35:50

for coming in. I really appreciate it. It's been great

35:52

to meet you. Thank you for having me. I'm inside

35:55

as detectives. Thank you. listener

36:00

original production.