0:02

A listener production. A

0:05

warning. This episode contains

0:07

references to violent crimes. If

0:10

this content affects you, the number for Lifeline

0:12

is 13 11 14. G'day,

0:22

I'm former police officer Brent

0:24

Sanders. And for

0:26

the past 25 years, I've

0:28

dedicated myself to sharing what I've learned

0:30

on the force to the

0:33

Australian public so they can

0:35

better protect themselves from falling victim

0:37

to crime. So

0:39

with the help of some of the

0:42

most respected current and former detectives and

0:44

high ranking law enforcement agents, I'm

0:47

going to pull back the curtain

0:49

on what life is like on the

0:51

force and what they've learned about

0:53

how crime and criminals really work. These

0:58

are real stories from

1:00

real detectives. This

1:04

week, a detective who was involved

1:06

in some of New South Wales

1:08

most infamous cases. Ended

1:11

the scene and it was a bloodbath

1:13

everywhere. You can imagine two blokes being

1:16

not only stabbed but bludgeoned to death

1:18

with a baseball bat. It was horrific.

1:24

Former deputy commissioner Dave Owens

1:26

is a 31 year veteran

1:28

of the force. Dave

1:31

was intimately involved in

1:33

several high intensity operations,

1:36

including the infamous killing of

1:38

Braar boys member Tony Heinz.

1:41

We'll hear about that case. But

1:44

to start, we're heading back to

1:46

1998 and to the

1:48

violent shooting of police

1:50

officer Chris Patrice. during

2:00

the night shifts I was the inspector and had

2:02

a car crew out so we were actually going

2:05

up to get a cup of coffee because we're

2:07

at Rose Bay there was an all-night very good

2:09

coffee place just near Rush Cutters Bay at

2:11

the time the boys had followed a car

2:14

you can imagine Rush Cutters Bay around

2:16

that time there's no traffic there's no

2:18

one around why you're around at this

2:20

hour of the morning so what we

2:22

didn't know was earlier in the

2:24

night the early hours of the morning some

2:26

people came into the eastern suburbs with the

2:28

intention of actually going and shooting the

2:31

King's Cross Drug Enforcer who was known by most

2:33

people as Tom and Sam so there

2:35

was a drug war going on and

2:37

they'd aim to go and kill him so

2:40

on the way there Johnny Photopoulos

2:42

who was the senior constable and Chris

2:44

Patricio was the constable in the car

2:46

crew came across their vehicle they simply

2:48

followed it up Alma Street which is

2:51

where the White City tennis courts are

2:53

they wanted to have a look at who was in the car and what

2:55

they're doing four of them have

2:58

jumped out of the car and absolutely bolted across

3:00

the sports field Chris has

3:02

climbed the fence to follow the

3:05

bloke the main offender Michael Kanan and

3:07

as Chris is up the top of the

3:09

fence so it's a the mesh

3:11

fence they use for tennis courts so it's fairly

3:14

high as he's at the top of the fence

3:16

Michael Kanan has turned around and

3:18

shot him through the right thigh and then shot him

3:20

in the wrist now in the process

3:22

of doing that Chris has fallen

3:24

and broken his ankle at the same

3:26

time so he was out of action

3:28

so constable Photopoulos is then

3:30

engaged in a shootout with Michael Kanan

3:33

and Michael Kanan was shot in both legs

3:36

he was shot in the buttocks and he was also shot

3:38

in the wrist in

3:40

Kanan shooting back at the police

3:43

because he was injured at the time Kanan

3:45

also shot himself in the foot how

3:48

I became involved was as I said I was simply

3:50

going for a cup of coffee see what the boys

3:52

are doing were they all right was it a slow

3:54

night and what were they doing for the next couple

3:56

of hours on the shift so I

3:58

drove down the road a little bit bit behind

4:00

them but it's dead still

4:02

down there you could hear everything so when they

4:04

drove up the street I heard the first gunshot

4:07

go off so I was still in the main

4:09

drag where White City is so I lit the

4:11

car up in other words put the lights on

4:13

top of the car to brighten it

4:15

up and say boys I'm here if you

4:18

had them across my way they're fine and

4:20

then all hell broke loose I used to

4:22

you could see literally in the light it

4:24

was like a movie with the gunshots going

4:26

off left right and centre so went around

4:28

to Alma Street

4:31

followed the sands of the gunshot and

4:33

saw him running across

4:35

the fields but I also saw

4:37

Chris Chris was lying in it's

4:40

like a ditch where they keep the scene for

4:42

the cricket pitches he'd fallen down and in there

4:44

so I could only hear him yelling

4:47

saw Johnny photobolus with his

4:49

hand on one offender pointing a gun

4:52

into a basically a black square which

4:54

was the tennis courts mate what the

4:56

hell's going on needed

4:59

to know so John's arrested

5:01

the offender at the same time

5:04

as shooting Michael Canine so

5:06

the guys got some guts on him and

5:08

I believe under the pressure he has John

5:10

has saved Chris's life by remaining so calm

5:13

as he did so I got there first

5:15

of all I had to secure Canine because

5:18

we know where the firearm was it was

5:20

as black as anything down there so

5:22

in talking to Canine he was in that much

5:24

pain he indicated where the firearm was because I

5:26

was worried that he was lying on it he'd

5:29

still have access to it secured the

5:31

firearm and then went across

5:33

to Chris to render first aid

5:35

to him we set

5:37

up multiple crime scenes because you can

5:40

imagine we got a bloke lying with

5:42

what four shots in him on a

5:44

tennis court you got a firearm near

5:46

him you got Johnny photobolus at

5:49

gunpoint with another offender who'd been

5:51

shooting and you got the other

5:54

bloke Chris lying in the cricket

5:56

pitch to manage that number

6:00

of hours we still had two guys

6:02

on the run because we knew there

6:05

were four of them so setting up

6:07

multiple crime scenes doing searches set

6:10

up a command post got state crime

6:12

in worked our way through

6:14

obviously got Kanan under guard up

6:17

to the hospital got Chris treated very

6:19

quickly as well and then speak to

6:21

the bloke who state crime spate to

6:24

the bloke who Johnny Fotopoulos had arrested

6:27

at the soon now what it

6:30

turns out going back through we didn't

6:32

firstly know that they were on their

6:34

way to gun shoot you

6:38

know Tom and Sam that came

6:40

up later but what we then

6:43

realized through doing search warrants on

6:45

sites in houses and just forensics

6:47

who came to the soon and

6:49

were fantastic can arm

6:51

resouni and kazee and

6:53

an unknown bloke back in July 1998

6:57

so we go back from December back

6:59

to July they were driving around

7:01

five dot and a lot of your

7:03

listeners will remember this incident may stop

7:05

near a five dot hotel

7:09

three mates were punching on out the front

7:11

of the hotel so one of them geld

7:13

out I'll punch on one

7:15

of the you know being being blunt one

7:17

of the Aussie guys is your back a

7:19

racial slur to Kanan and his mates so

7:22

Kanan has jumped out of the car produced

7:24

a gun and shot four shots into the

7:26

crowd now he's

7:29

done it just because a comment was made

7:31

this is what the blokes like one

7:33

of the Mars was shot in the arm bloke

7:36

by the name of right was shot in the lower

7:38

abdomen bloke by the name of

7:40

her was shot in the lower left

7:42

chest now both right and hurl died

7:44

in hospital the next day from the

7:46

injuries that were inflicted by Michael Kanan

7:48

the fourth shot went through one of

7:50

their shirts and missed completely as we

7:52

went back so the firearm

7:55

from the white city shooting was matched

7:57

to that shooting putting

7:59

things together a little bit more at the

8:02

time there was a crook running

8:05

around that basically he

8:07

developed his own group which

8:09

was called DK boys. Now

8:11

Denny Karam was his name just

8:14

before the shooting at White City.

8:17

Denny Karam's boys which included mainly

8:19

Middle Eastern young males they used

8:21

to recruit and what they basically

8:23

did was sale and distribution of

8:25

cocaine in the inner west and

8:28

they absolutely used intimidation and

8:30

violence to expand their trade.

8:33

Kanan and Co were all

8:35

part of DK's boys. Kanan

8:38

organised a meeting of the group and

8:41

whilst Denny Karam sat in his

8:43

car he was armed at the same time

8:46

whilst sitting in his car he

8:48

was ambushed by his own blokes who shot him

8:50

16 times in the head. Now they wanted to

8:52

make sure they did the job. So

8:56

that's out of a simple

8:58

car stop down in Rushcutters Bay on

9:01

the 23rd of December 1998. Takes

9:04

you back to the shooting of

9:06

these these two young blokes out the front of

9:09

Five Dock to Denny Karam's

9:11

murder and you go these are

9:14

what these people are like they're driving around in the

9:16

middle of the night looking for a target to go

9:18

and shoot and kill that was their idea of fun.

9:21

So this happened in 98 am I right

9:23

in saying David Kanan didn't end up being

9:25

sentenced for this particular shooting in the police

9:27

until 2006 is that right or have I

9:30

got that wrong? Yeah no that's right. What's

9:32

the delay what's all that about? He had

9:34

other trials he had to go through the

9:36

murder trials so it gets

9:38

put in priority so at the time there

9:41

was also a problem in 1999

9:43

the White City shooting because they

9:45

deal with the Five Dock shooting

9:48

shooting of Denny Karam and the White

9:50

City completely separate trials they cannot be

9:52

held together so that delays it but

9:54

in 1999 the matter

9:57

was put in November before magistrate

9:59

at Redford. pattern. Pat O'Shea and

10:02

I quote what she said was

10:04

the circumstances in which constables patrician

10:06

photopolis became involved with Kanan and

10:08

cohorts indicated police harassment

10:11

of youth. She

10:13

said the cops if they hadn't have stopped them wouldn't

10:15

have been shot. So

10:18

he goes to trial at that stage

10:20

I think I'm right in saying he's

10:22

already serving two consecutive life sentences. Three.

10:24

Three. Three life sentences. So the two

10:26

guys at five o'clock. Yes. And Denny

10:29

Karam. Yes. And Denny goes for the

10:31

white city shootings and he gets

10:33

12 years on top of that. So

10:35

he's got three life sentences plus 12. Plus 12. Is

10:37

he still inside? Yeah. He's not going to be released.

10:40

He's not going to be released. Yeah. Just for the

10:42

benefit of the listeners too. 98

10:44

when Karam's running around, Kanan rather

10:47

running around shooting coppers having shot

10:49

and killed two. How old is he? He's not an

10:51

old bloke is he? No he's very young. No no.

10:53

He's 19? He was, I was going to say he'd

10:55

be 2022 somewhere around there. And

10:57

was he well known to those in the job

11:00

at that time or I suppose at that age

11:02

you haven't really accumulated much in the way of.

11:04

He was known through intelligence a lot

11:06

because of Denny Karam's group DK

11:09

boys because you know the police

11:11

intelligence group does a lot of

11:13

work behind the scenes on linkages

11:16

and Denny Karam was

11:18

linked through the DK boys to Michael

11:20

Kanan to all of these others but

11:23

to convict them you got to put them in a

11:26

time date and place basically with

11:28

a gun in the hand or somebody turning

11:30

giving evidence against him. So

11:32

Dave we just circle back around you've arrived on

11:34

the scene. Fellow

11:36

officer Chris Patrice has been shot a

11:38

couple of times. He's fallen off the

11:40

fence. He's broken his ankle. You've

11:43

arrived and there's a bit of an interesting

11:45

exchange between yourself and Chris at that time.

11:48

Well again it's pitch black. I got Chris there

11:50

screaming. He did the moment you know is I

11:53

had to I had no gloves so I had

11:55

to put my hands straight over him

11:57

to stop the flow of the blood. Chris

11:59

is in absolute stand-up guy, he's

12:01

aces and I said you know mate for God's

12:04

sake basically there are only bullet holes this way

12:06

through and he's screaming and I'm thinking hang on

12:08

what what's going on and I'm trying to adjust

12:10

myself and everything and I was actually standing on

12:12

the ankle that he'd broken which he was in

12:15

that much pain he couldn't tell me. So the

12:17

bullet holes at that stage the pain of the

12:19

shooting was was was nothing compared to the pain

12:21

of you standing on the broken ankle. You get

12:23

a hundred kilo guy standing on your busted ankle

12:26

and it's gonna hurt. I'm sure Dave he's reminded

12:28

you of that now and again perhaps over

12:30

a year since. Yeah afterwards as I

12:32

said he's a lovely bloke and

12:34

as I said Johnny Fotopoulos absolutely

12:36

saved his life by remaining cool

12:39

calm under pressure returning the fire

12:41

and you know to this day

12:43

Chris is thankful that John was

12:45

there. Dave I could take

12:47

you forward to 2003 you're the

12:50

commander of Marubra police station now for those

12:52

that aren't listening in from Sydney New South

12:54

Wales. Marubra is a beachside suburb south

12:56

of Cudgy you've got sort of you know

12:58

Bondi Cudgy Marubra the main beaches down through

13:01

there. You're the commander of

13:03

that of that station. Dave what does that

13:05

entail? What's a typical day look like for

13:07

someone in that role? It

13:09

was my first local area command

13:11

and I'd say hands down

13:13

it was one of my hardest because

13:15

geographically it was so big it

13:18

went from La Perouse through

13:20

Marubra up to Randwick so you had

13:22

New South Wales University as well you

13:25

had the Bra boys down

13:27

at Bondi had the Housing Commission behind

13:29

there and it

13:31

was a very big transient

13:34

population on

13:36

your day you had a limited number

13:38

of detectives working out of the office

13:40

we had the special operations group working

13:42

out of their general duties who were

13:44

pushed very very hard and just do

13:46

a wonderful job and as I found

13:48

I also had Bob Carr

13:50

in my electorate he was a local member it's

13:53

different when you're policing the Premier's

13:55

local area because when things happen

13:57

I they've got to be informed

14:00

but you've also got to protect the Premier

14:02

from people that dropped into his

14:04

address, want to talk to him, want

14:06

to give him things, stuff like that. Politics

14:09

come into play as well. We

14:12

think of particularly of course those just

14:14

outside Sydney, I think of the eastern

14:16

suburbs of Sydney, we think of the

14:18

Bellevue Hills, we think of you know

14:20

the North Bondi, Velcluz, very, very salubrious,

14:22

expensive areas. You start to go a

14:25

little further south into areas like Maroobra,

14:27

Lapras, particularly 20 years ago. These

14:30

were tough areas. These were tough areas.

14:32

Yeah, I'll help you. You know, a lot of

14:34

crime, high crime areas. And as

14:36

a commander there, you would be getting

14:38

called out to sort of oversee a

14:40

lot of some of the more high

14:42

profile or more serious crimes. You might

14:45

not be having the hands-on investigation per

14:47

se, but you're on the ground, you're

14:49

overseeing it and then liaising back through.

14:51

Your first local area command, it's

14:54

yours. You want to make an impact. So

14:56

you are very hands-on. At

14:58

your second, third and fourth local area

15:00

command, you may not go to as

15:02

many jobs, but I went to every

15:05

job. It was also a time when

15:07

they had the Prince Henry Hospital was

15:09

still a hospital, the open grounds, the

15:11

golf course out there. If you go

15:13

there now, it's high rise buildings everywhere.

15:16

At Maroobra, it's all changed. Long

15:18

Anzac parade, it's all changed. It's

15:20

high density housing. Back then, it

15:22

was lower

15:24

socio-economic people down

15:26

there and right out at La Perouse,

15:29

you had a very active

15:31

population. And when I say active, active in

15:33

crime, but also trying to do the best

15:35

they could through the little school that was

15:37

there. So talking

15:39

about that sort of, like you said, Dave,

15:42

you know, first command, you're wanting to be

15:44

seen as much for the troops as

15:46

well. That's a big part of that. There's

15:49

a case that you're involved in down there in

15:52

Kudji investigating the killing of a member

15:54

of a very infamous group of locals

15:57

down there known as the Bra Boys.

16:00

Can you have a chat to us about

16:02

that particular case? Yeah, sure. It was about

16:04

August 2003 and you've got

16:06

a group called the Bra Boys. As you

16:08

said, they are an infamous Sydney bootside

16:12

surf group. They basically recognised

16:14

by the tattoo. My brother's keeper was

16:16

tattooed across their neck. And what they

16:18

basically said is, we are so tight,

16:20

we look after the young ones here

16:22

because they come from housing commission. We

16:25

give them what their parents can't give. And

16:27

we set up the social sign. Now, you

16:29

had Kobe Abbotton at the time. He was

16:31

a very well-known big wave surfer. That's how

16:33

he was making his living. He's very good

16:35

at it as well. But

16:37

the Bra Boys were meant to be

16:39

this tight-knit group looking after each other.

16:41

Now, some of the names

16:43

in the group were Tony Hines

16:46

and Kobe's brother, Joy Abbotton. Now,

16:48

Tony Hines, he

16:50

was one of the most violent people I

16:53

have ever come across, and

16:55

he was so unpredictable when he

16:57

was either on drugs or alcohol. You

16:59

just couldn't pick. Most people you can,

17:02

you know, when they're going to do something. This

17:04

guy was just, you know, M.A. triple D. He

17:06

really was. Now, Joy

17:08

Abbotton and Tony Hines were mates.

17:11

However, Tony

17:14

Hines, for some reason, believed

17:16

that Joy Abbotton had slept

17:18

with his wife. So

17:21

as a result of it, he made

17:23

threats against Joy Abbotton and his new

17:25

girlfriend. And as a result

17:28

of that, Joy shot him three times

17:30

in the head and once in the hand and

17:32

then disposed of the body over a cliff at

17:34

North Maroobah. Now, my

17:37

recollection is how I came into it was Joy

17:40

did have a new girlfriend. She

17:42

witnessed what went on and became

17:46

not paranoid, but really distressed at

17:48

what could happen to her. And I

17:50

fully understand that. We've

17:53

gone and seen her as a result of

17:55

a disturbance. And the story

17:57

started to unfold. She was extremely.

18:00

distressed, started rambling about what it occurred

18:02

and we're thinking hang on this isn't

18:05

you know putting two to two together. So

18:08

her story was straight up that Joy

18:10

had shot and killed Horns as they

18:12

believed Horns was going to rape her

18:14

and was going to then kill both of them and

18:17

as I said she believed Avedon disposed

18:19

of the body. So at

18:21

the scene that we found so at

18:23

North Maroobra her block of units was

18:26

directly opposite the park there

18:28

were drag marks across the park and

18:30

putting two and two together okay if he's disposed

18:33

of a body where would you dispose of it

18:35

over a cliff. When we went to the

18:37

edge of the cliff it's the

18:39

body was actually under the cliff but

18:41

you could see part of it protruding

18:43

out. We had to get rescue in

18:46

to find out was it a rock fisherman

18:48

or was it actually Tony Horns. We

18:51

found out it was Horns he was actually

18:53

naked fully naked at the bottom of the

18:55

cliff except for one shoe. Now I don't

18:57

know the significance of that other than obviously

18:59

Joy had taken the opportunity when

19:02

he was naked to shoot him and he has

19:04

done that and then disposed of the body. Avedon

19:07

was subsequently arrested and charged he

19:10

was extremely concerned that Tony

19:12

Horns was gonna kill him

19:15

and the only reason why he killed him before

19:17

was because he believed his girlfriend was going to

19:19

be raped and killed and he was going to

19:22

be killed and he'd dispose of

19:24

the body as I said it was supposedly

19:26

because Joy incorrectly

19:29

the rumor was had slept with Horns'

19:31

wife at the time and

19:34

this was supposedly payback. So

19:37

Dave just for a bit of clarity Joy Avedon

19:40

admits to shooting this chap three times in

19:42

the head once in the hand kills him. Some

19:45

would be questioning well okay how do you

19:47

then do that then dump a

19:49

body over the cliff to get

19:51

rid of it and then still come back and claim self-defense.

19:54

So how's that reconciled legally? Yeah

19:56

it's all one act so he

19:58

was that that

20:01

he's taken the action that he has,

20:03

self-defense, he's killed him and

20:06

in that act he has dragged the

20:08

body across and disposed of it. Now

20:10

if he had have had somebody come

20:12

in and help him dispose of the

20:14

body, well then that person would have

20:17

been charged with actually accessory after the

20:19

fact, i.e. disposing of the body. So

20:21

it's seen as one complete act

20:24

from the shooting, the death and the

20:26

disposal of the body, it's not he

20:28

shot him, that's a crime and

20:31

he disposed of the body, it's all one act. His

20:33

relationship with the police would not have been a

20:36

particularly rosy one, his trust the police wouldn't

20:38

have been great, so it would have been

20:41

relatively easy for his defense counsel to say

20:43

look of course my client wasn't

20:45

going to call up the police and say there's

20:47

a dead bloke in my lounge room, so you

20:49

see a little bit of panic and it all

20:51

sort of flows over and away we go, but

20:54

the case itself goes back to what happened in

20:56

the lounge room in the house. Yes, it's a

20:58

single case there was

21:00

no love lost between the Abidens and the

21:02

cops and

21:05

yeah he probably didn't think he'd get a fair deal

21:07

if he rang up and said hey

21:09

guess what Tony Einses did in the living room and

21:11

i shot him. Now

21:14

Dave you're commanding an area like

21:16

Marubra which geographically, I mean

21:18

it's spread out to a degree but when

21:20

we talk about the Bra boys in their

21:22

hold, a gang like that, their hold over

21:24

Marubra, we're talking a fairly small sort of

21:26

a location in some degree. I'm just wondering

21:28

Dave if you could sort of shine a

21:30

light on that relationship that the police have

21:32

with a group like that, very high profile,

21:34

a gang basically, do you

21:37

foster that relationship? How do you work

21:39

that from a policing perspective in an

21:41

area like Marubra 20 years

21:43

ago? Yeah 20 years ago

21:45

you can try and foster it but they

21:48

didn't want a bar of us and we didn't want a

21:50

bar of them basically. Whenever we dealt with them it was

21:53

in a violent confrontation normally, it was never

21:55

you know we'd like to work with you

21:58

and run programs, we had the PCYC

22:00

but they were at Pagewood and

22:02

they're very tribal and they stuck

22:04

to Maroobra Beach and Maroobra to

22:07

put any programs in were fruitless

22:09

basically because they weren't interested in

22:11

reform at that stage. What they

22:13

were was a group who they

22:15

thought they looked after each other,

22:17

they looked after the young kids

22:19

and to a degree they did

22:21

but then when they got to

22:23

a certain age it started with

22:25

violent crimes, break-and-enters, you know street

22:27

assault stuff like that. It was

22:29

met with a show of force by

22:32

the cops you know back then absolutely.

22:35

Was there a dust up in a kudji

22:37

hotel sometime after

22:40

this between perhaps off-duty

22:42

police and members of

22:44

the Brubwoods? Yeah it was

22:46

actually my first day as the

22:49

local area commander at Maroobra and

22:52

we were down at Goldman Academy we

22:54

all go down for a attestation parade

22:57

and that night the Waverly

22:59

police had a function I think

23:02

it was at the Randwick or

23:04

Maroobra RSL and the Barboys

23:07

had a function on another floor and as

23:09

they were all leaving the doors

23:12

opened and all hell broke loose

23:14

in a melee. I think from

23:16

memory I think it was that Randwick RSL

23:18

just right next to the kudji oval there

23:20

you go upstairs to the above floor now

23:22

the McDonald's there and you're right I've

23:25

been over the years to a few sort of

23:27

rugby type functions and bits and pieces there and

23:29

I think that was it and they spilled down

23:31

onto kudji bay road unfortunately at the same time.

23:33

Yep and both parties had consumed

23:36

alcohol and yeah a

23:39

fair melee resulted. We're

23:57

going back to 2003 to the... killing

24:00

of two men for our next case. Can

24:02

you walk us through what happened? 15th

24:04

of September, a gentleman by the

24:06

name of Ram Tiwari was sharing

24:09

a Kingsford unit with two

24:11

other university students. So

24:13

the three of them were all Singaporean nationals.

24:16

They were all being sponsored by the government,

24:18

which they do, to come out and go

24:21

through uni, gain the qualifications and go back

24:23

home. What happened was the

24:27

two engineering students were beaten

24:29

to death with a baseball bat

24:32

and stabbed at the same time. And

24:35

Tiwari, this Ram Tiwari who

24:37

lived there, in sequential

24:39

events, what happened was he wakes up,

24:42

finds the two deceased, allegedly barricades

24:44

himself in the room, and he

24:47

calls triple zero and tells them that he's

24:49

found his two flatmates deceased. So

24:51

General Judy's go down, Detective's go down, I got the

24:54

phone call, Bosch, you need to come and see this

24:56

one. So when I went down,

24:58

they suited up at the back boy, boy suited

25:00

up on me and put the forensic overalls on

25:03

the suits that they got and

25:05

at the scene and it was

25:07

a bloodbath everywhere. You can imagine

25:09

two blokes being not only stabbed,

25:12

but bludgeoned to death with a baseball

25:14

bat. It was horrific in what we found.

25:17

Initially at the scene, Tiwari,

25:19

we had to treat him as

25:21

a victim because he rang and

25:23

said, look, I was asleep. I

25:25

then barricaded myself in because I

25:28

found my two flatmates dead. But

25:30

we also, you just

25:32

have this thing at the back, you know, where the

25:34

hair stand up on the back of your neck and

25:36

you go, no, look, he's a person of interest as

25:38

well. Let's get his story down. Let's start doing some

25:40

of the forensics. So he was

25:42

either the luckiest bloke alive because he's

25:44

two flatmates are bludgeoned to death and

25:46

he slept through it or

25:48

he was a perpetrator. So

25:50

we've kept him in custody, taken

25:53

him up, made sure he was looked after. And

25:55

then what we had to do was work the

25:57

crime soon and at the same time get his

25:59

story. down. What is the

26:01

story you allege? Tell us in

26:03

detail what story is so then

26:06

we can start going through it, when I say

26:09

we the detectives can start going through it and

26:12

start finding inconsistencies through that

26:14

story. So he wasn't

26:16

in custody for I think about

26:18

the first 48 hours he came

26:20

and he assisted police. Now the

26:22

Singaporean representative came out here from

26:24

government and looked after him, made

26:26

sure that he was right. They were very very

26:29

good so we knew where he was all the

26:31

time. He actually went to a friend's place, we

26:33

made sure that he was there, we made sure

26:35

that he was looked after because we didn't want

26:37

him going anywhere. So what we

26:39

then found was working through it

26:42

he was a Singaporean student who's

26:44

attending the university. Okay that's good.

26:47

He was actually filing his subjects

26:49

and he was falsifying the documents to

26:52

send back to Singapore because he was

26:54

from a fairly well-off family

26:57

and it would have been a big

26:59

loss of face for him to have

27:01

the government paying and then him losing

27:03

you know filing through the course. It's

27:06

alleged that he's flatmates found out that

27:09

he what he was doing and he

27:11

was going to let the family know that

27:13

he was actually filing the courses. So again

27:15

the loss of face. He actually

27:17

owed one of the flatmates $5,000. So

27:22

then it goes and the detectives found

27:24

that he'd actually purchased the baseball bat

27:26

two days prior. The

27:28

detective going through then went

27:30

and got his service record because

27:33

he served in the Singaporean Army and

27:35

he actually went through commando training. So we

27:37

started putting all these facts together and

27:40

he was charged at that time. We're going back in

27:42

time saying look this is what happened. So

27:45

Tiwari went through two separate

27:48

trials and one of

27:51

them was a mistrial and then the second

27:53

one he was found guilty on two charges

27:55

of murder in the Supreme Court and he

27:57

was sentenced in 2009. to

28:00

48 years jail.

28:03

So what happened was in 2012, he

28:07

and his family were going to appeal no

28:09

matter what. They appealed everything. They mistriled everything.

28:11

They tried to get out on technicalities on

28:13

everything. I guess if you're a parent you

28:15

would try and do that with your son. So

28:18

in 2012 he appeared in

28:20

the New South Wales Court of Criminal Appeal

28:22

which is only three judges sitting. It's no

28:25

jury and they quashed

28:27

his conviction citing a reasonable doubt.

28:29

Now it's interesting in what they

28:32

found because what they found was

28:34

there's considerable suspicion about his version

28:36

of events. So they didn't actually believe all

28:39

of his version of events but

28:42

that was both to its content and the tone

28:44

in which it was given. They

28:47

described the Crown case as it was plausible what

28:49

they put forward. It was very plausible with Tawari

28:51

having the moons to both kill the men and

28:54

purchase a baseball bat and he was trying to

28:56

do as a commander. So again he knew how

28:58

to use an eye of the art of money

29:00

and he had the opportunity and he bought the

29:02

baseball bat. But

29:04

what happens is you have two deceased

29:07

who can't talk for themselves and

29:09

you have Tawari who's alive. So

29:11

he gives a version of what

29:14

he found which is the two

29:16

deceased on the day he claimed

29:18

were acting extremely behaving unusually

29:21

and one of them had actually purchased

29:23

a baseball bat for protection just before

29:25

he was killed. Now

29:27

was it protection from Tawari

29:30

or was it protection from an unknown

29:32

person and that's where the reasonable doubt

29:34

came in. The police have

29:36

to talk on behalf of the dead but

29:39

sometimes you just can't

29:42

completely wipe out a version that somebody is

29:44

telling to the court when you can't talk

29:46

to the people involved. What did you buy

29:48

a baseball bat? And his

29:50

explanation could have been because my flatmate was

29:52

scaring the bejesus out of me that's why

29:54

I bought it but we didn't have that.

29:56

So there was a lack of forensic

29:58

evidence at the house. But they

30:01

believed Tuari had greater knowledge and

30:03

or greater complicity

30:05

in the murders. However,

30:07

there was a reasonable doubt that the third party

30:09

could have also been involved. So therefore,

30:12

it was quash. So basically for

30:15

nearly 10 years, and I know that it took

30:17

me very well, it

30:20

consumed his life with everything that

30:22

went on. The technicalities, the military,

30:24

trying to get access to the

30:26

military records, basically putting the picture

30:29

back together. And then

30:31

this guy comes and says, well, you know, these guys

30:33

were acting strangely on the day of our only bought

30:35

a baseball bat two days before as well. So

30:38

not money. Even if his fingerprints

30:41

were over the baseball bat, I guess the argument would be,

30:43

yeah, but he bought it. He lived

30:45

there. He lived there. He lived in the

30:47

house. He's going to be an every day. Yeah, of course they were.

30:49

Was he doing a nada? Yeah, of course it was. Yeah, it's not

30:51

going to be a case, is it where DNA is going to tip

30:53

at one another to be there? No, no. Did

30:55

he walk through the crime scene? Yeah, he did. He

30:57

was going to come out. Yeah. You

30:59

know, everything that was put forward was then

31:02

could be refuted because the guy lived there.

31:05

And what you do with the three judges in

31:07

the criminal appeal is you take out any emotion.

31:09

Yeah. So with a jury, you can paint the

31:12

picture, which I painted, you know, he falsified

31:14

his records. He owes five

31:16

grand. He's got commando training. He bought the

31:19

baseball bat. You know, he allegedly slept through

31:21

it. And the jury go,

31:24

I don't believe that. Whereas the

31:26

judges are, and rightly so, stick to

31:28

the law, the facts of what occurred.

31:31

And as I've said is, the dead can't talk for

31:33

themselves. So Dave,

31:36

you had a 31 year

31:39

career and you medically retired

31:41

in 2012. Now,

31:43

can I say, Dave, you attained

31:45

the rank of deputy commissioner in

31:47

New South Wales, which is,

31:49

you know, you're one branch of the tree above

31:51

the top. There's a handful of people who get

31:53

to that

31:56

level of commissioned officer. But 2012 after

31:58

the... 31

32:00

years medically retired that must have been

32:02

a big decision to make. Yeah

32:05

it was a massive decision look it was I

32:08

guess taken out of my hands to some

32:10

extent because of physical injuries. I have a

32:13

busted vertebrae in layman's terms and

32:15

I've had the same shoulder

32:17

reconstructed three times. So the choice

32:21

was taken out of my hands to a degree. A

32:23

lot of blokes end up a lot worse than me

32:25

coming through but I decided look

32:27

it was time for me to call it quits

32:29

you know and try something different. Dave

32:32

those injuries that led to that

32:34

medical retirement were they injuries that

32:36

occurred on the job? Yeah yeah

32:39

they were look the it's

32:41

sort of funny in a way I wish

32:44

it never happened but the guy ended up

32:46

in the nicest country guy you'd ever want

32:48

to see again. Buddy Easton Booches never

32:50

killed me as the

32:52

commander there we got Renwick racecourse in

32:55

and and we're talking you know back

32:58

a while ago is the public area there

33:00

wasn't what it used to be you know

33:02

it wasn't back then what it is

33:04

now and blokes used to get

33:06

there they used to absolutely just pour it

33:08

down their throats and we had

33:10

a couple of blokes from the country and of course

33:12

they were two brothers they were two bookings six foot

33:14

nine and six foot eleven and

33:17

they had an absolute skin full

33:19

started taking their clothes off started

33:22

punching blokes walking past them and everything so

33:24

we decided to go and grab them because

33:26

they're in the distance so I've run up

33:28

with another bloke and as I've got closer

33:30

you know the eyes are going up and up

33:32

and I'm going oh this is gonna hurt me

33:35

and I grabbed him and

33:38

as I grabbed him he's gone

33:41

when I get hold of you I'm gonna kill you

33:43

because he was just pissed he didn't know he couldn't

33:45

I don't think even recognize that I was in the

33:48

cops so I thought alright what's the easiest

33:50

way if he can't swim he can't hit me so

33:52

I sprayed him with the OC spray in there the

33:54

eyes and there's his bloke

33:56

six foot nine swinging and I'm four

33:58

foot nine stuck in everything I

34:01

can, but he ended up grabbing me and

34:03

we twisted when we fell to the ground and

34:05

that he was literally that big and that

34:07

heavy. That's what fractured my

34:09

vertebrae. And as a

34:11

result of that, they want to go and

34:13

put a titanium cage and all of that.

34:16

I'll put up with it until it really,

34:18

really is unbearable. But you know,

34:20

when he's over it up, he's actually sitting in

34:22

the dock with him. He's actually the nicest bloke

34:24

in the world. He was a country bloke. He

34:26

just had a skin fall and

34:29

just couldn't control himself. A big unit.

34:31

Oh, he's a massive rig. Yeah. As

34:34

you say, in the distance, he looked good. It's

34:37

when I caught up with him and went, oh, Jesus

34:39

is going to hurt. And

34:41

what year was that then, Dave? Oh, geez, we're

34:43

going back to about 2005. And

34:47

I just pain managed it through. You

34:49

know, you just put up with it and you go through and

34:51

then of all things

34:53

stupidly slipped and tore my shoulder

34:56

out, got it reconstructed, didn't take,

34:58

thrown a tennis ball and it ripped out

35:00

again. And then, you know, third one,

35:03

I went, look, you know, someone's trying to tell

35:05

me you can't keep doing this job. So

35:07

I just retired and started my own business. And

35:09

that's seven years after the

35:11

incident at the racecourse. And

35:13

also something that folks perhaps wouldn't be aware of,

35:16

Dave, even at the rank of Deputy Commissioner from

35:18

a physical perspective, you have to be able to

35:20

pretty much attain. This is how it always was.

35:22

I think it was in this time. You have

35:24

to be able to attain the same physical performance

35:26

as a 1920 year old constable

35:28

that's coming out of the academy. Yep. As

35:31

the rank of constable. So when you start carrying injuries like that

35:33

and none of us are getting any younger at that stage after

35:35

30 years service, if you can't

35:37

meet the physical requirements required

35:39

for constable, even though you're Deputy Commissioner,

35:42

that's pretty much it. Is that sort

35:44

of... Yeah. And it's pain

35:46

management. You know, you're waking up and you're broken and busted

35:48

every day and you're just going, do

35:50

I need to be doing this anymore? And that's what it

35:52

came to. And the commissioner was really good at the time.

35:54

And you know, it's what labels

35:56

you. It's what you identify as. But

35:58

then one door... closes and another one

36:01

opens. We were identified

36:34

in emergency services so that's

36:37

your identity and what I try

36:39

and say to him is that was

36:41

your identity what you learned

36:43

in that phase now take across.

36:46

You know you ran a team,

36:48

you supervised, you managed, you've got

36:50

all these skills, you're top-notch investigators,

36:52

you've got these skills. If you

36:55

choose to go back into the

36:57

workforce actually see yourself for

37:00

the value that you're worth and equally

37:02

if you can't work anymore that's also

37:04

okay and that's really important. So I

37:06

work with quite a few

37:08

people now and I get great delight

37:10

in seeing them going back and actually

37:12

thriving in the workforce. Dave

37:16

I just want to thank you so very much for

37:18

coming in here to the studio and having a chat

37:20

to us this afternoon. I want

37:22

to thank you you know for your service

37:24

thank you for that 31 years of service

37:26

to predominantly the good people of

37:28

these suburbs of Sydney of which

37:30

I was one during that time. It's been a privilege to

37:32

have you on board Dave and thanks for coming in for

37:34

a chat and I know a lot of people that listen

37:36

to us will take a lot from it. Absolute

37:39

pleasure. Crime

37:44

Insider's Detectives is a listener

37:46

original production. It's

37:48

hosted by me, Brent Sanders produced

37:51

by Ed Gooden and sound

37:53

designed and imaged by Link Kelly.

38:00

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