0:02

A Let's production. A

0:05

warning. This. Episode references

0:07

the death of a

0:09

child and contains graphic

0:11

descriptions of violence. If.

0:13

This content of fix

0:16

you.lifeline On Thirteen Eleven

0:18

fourteen. You

0:25

Die On Former Police Officer

0:27

Brent Sanders. And

0:29

for the past twenty five years,

0:31

I've dedicated myself to sharing what

0:33

I've learned on The Force to

0:35

the Australian public. So. They

0:38

can better protect themselves from falling

0:40

victim to crime. So

0:43

with the help of some of

0:45

the most respected current and former

0:47

detectives and high ranking law enforcement

0:49

agents going to pull back the

0:52

curtain on what life is like.

0:54

On the fourth, what they've learned

0:56

about how crime and criminals really

0:58

work. These.

1:01

Are real stories from

1:04

real detectives? This

1:07

week a high ranking detective

1:09

who investigated somewhat the Uk

1:12

is most chilling crimes. So

1:15

they stay. I couldn't tell anybody what was

1:17

the actual motive for it. What?

1:19

I don't know is it's probably. One.

1:22

Of the most. Horrendous crimes

1:24

that. I've. Been involved with.

1:28

Nigel Donohue join the South Yorkshire

1:30

Police when he was just sixteen.

1:33

He. Had a distinguished career and was

1:35

a high ranking detective for much of

1:38

the thirty two years he spent in

1:40

the force. To.

1:43

Start were heading back to

1:45

the mid nineties. Nodules

1:48

just received an unusual call

1:50

about the death of a

1:52

fourteen year old. At. A

1:54

dental practice? it

1:58

was a particularly of unusual

2:01

case in that we had

2:03

a young man who got

2:05

a very rare genetic disorder

2:08

receiving treatment at a dentist. I

2:11

got involved when I received

2:13

a phone call to say that this young

2:15

man had passed away and it

2:17

wasn't being treated as suspicious and

2:20

my initial thoughts were how does a

2:23

young 14 year old child end up

2:25

in a dentist and then ended

2:27

up going to hospital in an ambulance and

2:30

is dead. It just

2:34

seemed completely alien so

2:37

I ended up going to the scene and I would

2:39

look at the scene and we'd

2:42

had some photographers down before I got

2:44

involved or taking some forensic photography

2:47

and had a look

2:49

at it so I wasn't

2:53

comfortable that there wouldn't

2:55

be anything suspicious behind it. I needed

2:57

to understand a number of things

3:00

namely why

3:03

was he being an ethertized at

3:05

a dentist, what kind of condition

3:08

did the child have and what was involved

3:10

in in the whole setup that

3:12

led it to the tragic outcome that we

3:15

had. So having

3:17

gone to the scene I decided that we

3:19

needed to recover a lot to do equipment

3:21

so we forensically dealt with the

3:24

scene, recovered the anaesthetic

3:26

equipment, had a look to see

3:28

what medicines were present if any

3:30

and basically had

3:33

to start as a layman setting

3:36

out the parameters of the investigation to

3:38

see what we were dealing with because

3:40

I saw three elements to it so

3:43

I split it up into an

3:45

investigation that looked at the medical

3:47

equipment, the medicines and

3:49

the genetic condition

3:52

that the young man had so we had to find out

3:55

what was golden hour syndrome, What

3:58

were the medical implications of dealing with? So. One

4:00

with thought and what it would kill

4:02

them was being used. In. The

4:04

surgery that could have programs contributed to

4:06

his death. When. You talk

4:09

about the Gardener syndrome that's not something on

4:11

familiar with. Was the dentist aware of that?

4:13

Should he have been aware of that with

4:15

the young lad as a patient or witted

4:17

that solicit. Yeah. Eight sip

4:19

it is a red condition that least

4:21

to disfigurements in in this young man's

4:23

kiss. It affected his job

4:25

and his respiratory tract was not. It's

4:27

so odd thing to the time to

4:29

read his medical notes and quiet into

4:32

the background which we soaps of Bill

4:34

I found the haven't done. That.

4:36

Would have found the in his medical

4:38

not safe evidence of any on the

4:40

static procedures that should have been done.

4:43

In. A hospital environment because of

4:45

the. The. Dangers associated with

4:47

another one of his respiratory tract

4:50

and as it turned out. Through.

4:52

The inquiries that we did it said. It

4:55

would appear that the a nice the

4:57

test in charge of it hadn't read

4:59

is no sudden referred to those knows

5:02

along with a number of failings that

5:04

we subsequently. On. Com. As

5:06

a result to the investigation we

5:09

discovered that those some negligence involved

5:11

in the medical equipment. And.

5:13

I got involved with a an agency

5:15

never heard of called The Medical Devices

5:17

Urgency in London. And soap. Some

5:20

advice and at work very well with

5:22

the as an expert from down the.

5:25

And basically what we uncovered. Is

5:27

that when you use in on

5:29

this anesthetics. You. Have

5:31

guessed specific tops associated with

5:34

guess so that the labeled

5:36

and. We. Discover

5:38

that they just tops had been

5:40

interfered. With. So the

5:42

oxygen. Top of.

5:45

Beans. Interfered. with

5:47

as up the nitric oxide so when the

5:49

your mother being put on the on the

5:51

statistics. Though. It signal that

5:53

cancer a piece of equipment on the

5:56

pulse oximeter the indicates that is it

5:58

was of in trouble. We

6:00

need oxygen and when they an eighth assistant.

6:03

Though. Was dealing with him was flush him

6:05

what he thought was out of oxygen. Subs.

6:09

Had been interfered with. They were actually solution

6:11

and. When. I to soak side.

6:14

And the upshot to they all was

6:16

every time. They. Indications where

6:18

the saturation levels were altered.

6:21

It was getting lost. By.

6:23

In in a city still thought to a solution

6:25

and will is a new that Solas looks and

6:27

him with notches oxide. And.poison

6:29

them. Would

6:32

the outcome of fame different if he hadn't

6:34

had that a genetic disability or would it

6:36

have been the same with regards to the

6:39

flushing? With that not to set foot. To.

6:41

Be on a style. I'm. I'm

6:44

eliminate when it comes to terms with it

6:46

but says what I don't know is if

6:48

you pump so mom full of duchess oxide

6:50

whether you've got a condition that serve. As.

6:53

Severe as Bradley's were all not

6:55

eventually. If you keep flush him

6:57

mais. With. Notches outside you

6:59

gonna boys and men. And

7:01

ultimately. Seriously. Injured man thought

7:04

would be my suspense of it. Am

7:07

I right in saying it? It it got

7:09

as far as both the in a subtest

7:11

and the dentist being charged criminally as a

7:13

result of this. Yes, But

7:15

the prosecution against the densest. it

7:18

didn't quite there yet. The a

7:20

decision was made to lay his

7:22

charges on file when they have

7:24

an atheist. Took full responsibility and

7:26

received a custodial sentence. Yeah, got

7:29

six months' imprisonment. And

7:31

what happens was something like that. Again,

7:33

we're Lyman Nodule if in a nice

7:35

assist is found guilty of what is

7:37

basically yeah, august manslaughter or something along

7:40

those lines as as he struck from

7:42

the register once he comes back. And

7:44

that's exactly where armed career over here,

7:46

yet career ended. I'm a net. Is

7:49

is kill save a girl. Described

7:52

him as a decent understand this

7:54

sensitive mom. Would. Have been

7:56

shattered by Bradley's It does. And.

7:58

it took goal responsibility for what

8:00

happened but yeah

8:04

it was a tragic case that should

8:06

never have happened and he

8:09

faced justice quite rightly so. Nods

8:14

if I can take you forward to

8:16

July 2004 detective

8:20

inspector in Sheffield and

8:23

you investigated a very gruesome case involving

8:25

the discovery of a young man in

8:28

a roadside ditch can you just explain

8:30

that case in your involvement in it?

8:33

Yeah I was the actual on call

8:35

seeing a detective that

8:38

particular afternoon so it was

8:40

about 4 p.m. in the afternoon somebody

8:43

travelling home down

8:45

the quiet country lane in a very

8:47

remote area of Sheffield saw

8:50

some disturbance at side of

8:53

the road and when I said disturbance somewhere the

8:55

grass had been dragged back and

8:59

she stopped and actually saw that there was a

9:01

body in the ditch it was an off-duty police

9:03

officer on her way home who lived in that

9:05

area so

9:08

I attended at the scene with a colleague and

9:11

the location was near a

9:13

dam reservoir

9:16

but very close to the borders of

9:18

Greater Manchester, Derbyshire and

9:21

the extremities of Sheffield and Barnes

9:23

I saw an extremely rural location

9:26

and if I'm honest with you when I first turned

9:28

up and saw the

9:30

body and you could see instinctively

9:32

that it was a gruesome

9:35

murder I didn't

9:38

know whether I was dealing with that

9:40

as a scene or as a deposition

9:42

site I literally had all options open

9:44

because of the it just seemed

9:46

so hard to place and I didn't

9:48

know what is it going to be something

9:51

to do with my district is it

9:53

a cross-border crime because

9:55

so you know the demographics of the UK different

9:57

forces where it's so much to do with greater

10:00

Manchester with something to do with Derbyshire.

10:02

Lots and lots of questions and

10:05

you just have to set off with a very

10:07

open mind and consider

10:09

all possibilities and see where it takes you.

10:12

So that's that

10:15

much challenging again for different

10:17

reasons and it didn't help

10:19

that when we it was a

10:21

nice warm summer's evening when we were starting

10:23

the forensic side of things we

10:25

had a torrential downpour so

10:29

that caused me some concerns as

10:31

well at the time about loss potential

10:33

loss of forensic evidence. Can you

10:35

just walk us through how that

10:37

investigation sort of unfolded and came together

10:40

from there? Okay so

10:42

obviously because of I thought

10:44

it might be potentially a stranger

10:47

murder or connected to organized

10:49

criminality so a on-duty

10:53

detective super intend that SIO was called

10:55

to the scene and

10:58

between that officer and I

11:00

we secured the scene

11:02

but we got quite a lucky breakthrough

11:04

very early on the evening we

11:07

came across a rucksack outside the parameters of

11:09

what had been cordoned off when I'd first

11:12

arrived and we found

11:14

a wallet and inside that

11:16

wallet was the some

11:18

identification of a mail and

11:20

as it turned out later on in that evening

11:22

very late on we discovered the

11:25

name of that boy

11:28

did some family checks and found they were missing

11:30

for a moment they thought he were out with

11:32

friends so that took a

11:34

bit of a twist on it. The

11:37

following day obviously we

11:40

kept the scene secure overnight

11:42

we got the forensics scientists

11:44

out from all the different

11:46

specialisms the body remained

11:48

in situ until the following day and

11:50

that was taken for post-mortem examination so

11:53

that side of the investigation the

11:55

SIO ran the case

11:58

the detective super intend over us all

12:00

the pathology and all the forensic stuff.

12:03

And the following day I started with all the

12:06

coordination of the crime scene,

12:09

the locality, and that extended

12:11

over a considerable

12:14

distance. So that was difficult.

12:17

During the course of the day when we were

12:20

searching the immediacy around where the body had been

12:22

found, we also got a

12:24

phone call from a local farmer to

12:26

say he'd found some abandoned camping

12:29

equipment. So it had made the news

12:31

that we were investigating the suspicious death

12:33

of someone. And he said

12:36

he'd found some, I think it was a

12:38

tent, discarded in his field and

12:40

he didn't know whether it was connected so he rang

12:42

us up. And that was

12:44

near to a village that was closed by

12:47

a place called Bolsterstone. So

12:50

we got specially searched teams off so it

12:52

worked, gridded, they did all the grid work

12:54

and systematically searched

12:57

all the ground. And we

12:59

deployed, one of the first times

13:02

we'd actually deployed a blood dog

13:05

and the dog went to the campsite. So

13:07

we started at the campsite where we'd discovered

13:12

not far away from the body and

13:14

the dog was able to track blood

13:17

tracers. And what it

13:19

actually did is it tracked a zigzag

13:21

pattern down to a gate and

13:24

then back onto the road and took focus to where

13:27

the body had been discovered. And

13:29

there were three significant areas where there

13:31

were heavy blood staining and

13:33

what that indicated straight away is that

13:36

an attacker had started at

13:39

that point and the person

13:41

had been attacked. It sustained injuries

13:44

and was trying to flee the attackers.

13:46

Bear in mind this is in middle

13:48

at night in a pitch black environment

13:51

whilst being pursued by his assailants

13:54

who were acting at him and it

13:56

took us all the way down to where he was. undoubtedly

14:01

suffering with significant injuries and

14:04

that's where they finally killed him in the ditch. And

14:07

am I right that it was whilst they

14:09

were camping that these three others I think

14:12

two young men and a young young lady

14:14

in their late teens or mid teens did

14:17

they steal the the eventual weapon

14:19

from a local farm? Is that sort of

14:21

how you piece things together? So

14:24

effectively one of

14:26

the offenders the gentleman called John

14:28

Sordon he lived in

14:31

and around Ballsterstone and he knew

14:33

the area well so Terry

14:37

Herster was the victim was left whilst

14:40

sleeping in the tent and I've

14:44

never established what went off but we

14:46

believe there might have been some disagreement.

14:49

Terry stayed behind unbeknown

14:51

to him is fall nicely those

14:54

three walked all the

14:56

way back to the the Ballsterstone

14:58

village and there's a church

15:00

near to the pub in it's it's traditional

15:02

what you'd say is ideal

15:04

at Yorkshire countryside and pub

15:07

and the graveyard had

15:11

a shed in it where the

15:13

local caretaker kept

15:15

his garden equipment and

15:18

in there there was two

15:20

sides there was a big five six foot side

15:22

and then a big handheld

15:24

side that he used to maintain

15:27

so the broke into there and

15:29

the the mindset

15:32

I had is that somebody who

15:35

lived locally knew that that existed

15:38

and probably seen or

15:40

perhaps even been in that building before

15:42

so they went back there specifically stole

15:44

those two items which they took back

15:46

and they were the items that they

15:49

used to kill Terry for

15:51

those who aren't 100% sure site there's like

15:54

a can be a shorter or long handled

15:57

it's a tool that's used to cut through wheat and things

15:59

such as Is that I think an image I get

16:01

is the grim reaper I think carries a scythe with

16:03

them is am I right? Is that am I on

16:05

the right track? Yeah, and people have

16:08

people have used that description to me in the

16:10

past and that will allow

16:13

people to visualize exactly what it is. So

16:15

the long handled scythe that

16:17

was traditionally used for cutting wheat

16:21

years before technology landed that's

16:23

exactly what it was. Big five

16:25

six foot massive

16:27

weapon with a very

16:29

sharp large blade on it. Tragically

16:33

when we discovered him he also had a

16:35

plastic bag on his head and it forensic

16:37

investigation could show that he'd had

16:39

his head stamped on and

16:42

when the body was removed there was

16:44

a well underneath his head several

16:46

inches deep to show

16:48

the ferocity of what had taken place.

16:52

Which of the offenders stumped on his head I

16:54

don't think we have it established and

16:57

then the final indignity was

16:59

the scythe was left embedded through his

17:01

neck and into his face. The

17:04

obvious question Nigel I mean it's there's

17:06

a thousand but one in my mind

17:08

is was there any

17:11

motive that could be established was there

17:13

any reason for such a violent that

17:15

was it was it a drug related

17:17

issue with a what was

17:20

how did you arrive? No it wasn't

17:22

drug related we asked

17:24

the questions that have never been fully

17:27

answered and to this day I couldn't tell

17:29

you what was the motivation. There

17:31

was some suggestion that there might have been a link to

17:33

the 17 year old and a girlfriend

17:39

and he was jealous

17:41

of Terry's interest but

17:43

that is pure speculation so

17:45

to this day I couldn't

17:47

tell anybody what was the actual motive

17:50

for it. What I don't

17:52

know is it's probably one of

17:54

the most horrendous crimes

17:56

that I've been involved with

17:59

and what makes makes it doubly horrendous,

18:02

not that this is minimising it, is

18:05

our two 17 year old boys and

18:08

a 15 year old could coerce

18:11

and plan in so

18:13

much detail to get

18:15

someone isolated in such a lonely

18:18

place and then go in

18:20

the middle of the night fully intending

18:22

to steal property that they knew existed,

18:25

i.e. besides, and then go back and conduct

18:27

such a horrendous attack on someone, i

18:31

don't think they'll ever rationalise what went on in

18:33

their heads. Being

18:36

of that young age themselves as offenders,

18:38

could i ask what

18:40

was the end result with regards to them

18:42

found guilty or three varying

18:44

degrees of culpability i guess, custodial

18:47

sentences but they would be, they'd be

18:49

aligned with their age too i suppose,

18:52

what happened there? Yeah that's obviously

18:54

something to take into consideration, along

18:57

with their reaction

18:59

and how they responded obviously. So

19:01

they pleaded not guilty until

19:03

they got to the trial

19:06

date and then entered

19:08

guilty please. So all

19:10

three were convicted on their guilty

19:12

please, they got life imprisonment with

19:14

minimum sentences. So the minimum

19:17

sentences that were handed out is that

19:19

Mr Sorden, he was jailed

19:21

for a minimum i believe of 17 years, the

19:23

other lad

19:25

Jermaine James, he got

19:27

15 years i

19:29

believe it was and then Rebecca

19:32

Peters, the 15 year old girl,

19:34

she got a 12 year minimum sentence. She

19:37

did subsequently appeal that

19:40

some years into her sentence and

19:42

it was deemed that she

19:44

cooperated and had started

19:48

showing some

19:51

kind of understanding of

19:53

what she'd done was responding

19:55

to treatment and had started

19:58

maturing and her sentence. minimum

20:00

sentence was reduced on appeal to 10 years.

20:04

Did you interview any of the three offenders

20:06

yourself? No,

20:09

no, so because of the nature of

20:11

the investigation, obviously

20:13

it was dealt with as a

20:15

major incident so Mr.

20:18

Hardy, the Detective Superintendant and I

20:21

oversaw the strategy and strategic

20:23

planning and we brought

20:26

in expert interviewers, fully trained

20:28

interviewers, we got the specialist

20:30

family support people in. My

20:33

role in that is to ensure

20:35

strategy is implemented and we've got

20:37

a good investigative

20:39

plan layered out so it's

20:42

more direction. There was

20:44

a lot of officers employed on that

20:46

investigation. You would be

20:48

close enough to it I'm sure Nigel. When

20:50

these three children and that's what

20:52

they are, they're all under 18, they're legally

20:55

children, did they

20:57

show remorse? Did they show degrees of

20:59

contrition? They pleaded not guilty right up

21:01

until the death knoll but I

21:04

mean because these are the

21:06

actions of a psychopath

21:08

and oftentimes not you'd

21:10

know better than most that when you get

21:14

a group, two, three, four, whatever committing

21:16

such a violent crime, you often have

21:18

one who is

21:20

of all my psychotic tendencies and

21:22

the others sort of follow along

21:24

behind. I'm interested,

21:27

was there any sort of structure like that

21:29

within this that you became aware of following

21:31

the arrest? It's

21:35

a term that people bandit quite

21:37

often psychopath and

21:39

I'm not here to go into the ins

21:42

and outs of psychopathic

21:44

behavior. What I

21:46

can tell you is that they

21:48

were subject whilst incarcerated to waiting

21:50

child, they were subject to reviews

21:53

by psychologists for all the

21:55

obvious reasons and

21:59

they showed no remorse whatsoever

22:01

to any of my team. It's

22:04

only after conviction that one

22:06

of them, to my knowledge, has shown

22:09

any contrition and started responding,

22:11

and that was the young lady. What

22:14

I can say without a shadow

22:16

of a doubt is they were callous beyond belief

22:18

in what they did. Whether or

22:20

not they officially were

22:23

diagnosed with psychotic tendencies

22:26

or psychopaths, I

22:28

couldn't answer that. But what

22:30

I can't say, it was a

22:32

cold-blooded, planned, premeditated, horrendous attack with

22:36

no apparent motive. And

22:38

even if there'd have been a motive to injure him, to

22:40

do what they did is just be

22:42

unbelief. 2007,

22:59

2008, you're the senior investigator, an

23:03

extremely confronting case which involves

23:05

a fair bit of vigilantism,

23:07

I think we could call it, for want of

23:10

a better term. Can you explain this one to

23:12

us? Yeah,

23:14

it's in a

23:17

nutshell, a gentleman

23:19

driving home from work decides

23:21

he needs to make a phone call to a family

23:23

member, pulls his car up on an estate, and pulls

23:25

up at the side of the road on a grass

23:27

verge. And while he's

23:29

on his phone, he hears a

23:31

man walk up and taps on his driver's

23:34

door window. He

23:36

winds the car window down to be confronted

23:38

by someone asking him if he's a smack

23:41

dealer. And that individual then

23:43

pours petrol from a canister over

23:45

his head, over the top

23:47

of the car, crouches down, sets fire to

23:50

it, and sets fire to the gentleman, who's

23:52

then trapped in his car. The

23:55

engine's running, and he's struggling

23:57

to get the seatbelt on fastened. And

23:59

he eventually... they managed to get the

24:01

seatbelt on faster when it's burnt through. The

24:04

car's still gently

24:06

ticking over, manages to get himself onto

24:08

the grass verge and with

24:10

the assistance of some passers by they managed to

24:13

pull the fire out and the car just rolls

24:15

a few feet out of the road into a,

24:17

I think it ran into a tree and

24:20

as you no doubt already

24:22

worked out he suffered a horrific burn

24:24

injuries. So

24:26

the chaps walked across the road, he's seen this

24:28

guy in a car perhaps on

24:31

his phone, what was he

24:33

thinking that led to him doing what he did? What

24:35

did he think was taking place on the side of

24:37

the road? He'd got it and

24:39

he said that there was a local

24:41

drug dealer, someone coming onto the estate regularly

24:43

and selling drugs, smack being an

24:46

abbreviation or a term for heroin.

24:49

He's seen this man on the phone, he's

24:51

gone to his garden shed, got his kind

24:53

of petrol, walked across the road

24:55

casually, knocked on the side window and just

24:58

doused him in petrol, accused him of being

25:00

a smack dealer and then run away with

25:02

the can and disappeared

25:04

onto an estate. We

25:07

subsequently did some enquiries during daylight

25:09

hours the following day and

25:12

recovered the petrol canister

25:15

but what happened in the early hours of

25:17

the morning while we were getting the scene

25:19

secured, the man who was responsible actually

25:22

surrendered himself to the officers at the scene

25:25

where he was arrested for obviously attempted

25:27

murder and again the following

25:29

day we had to do all the

25:31

forensic evidence gathering. Was

25:33

there any backstory to that individual as to

25:35

why he did that? Let's say the guy

25:37

is a

25:40

drug dealer, let's say he is there selling drugs,

25:43

it's still a pretty extreme step to take. The

25:45

fact that he wasn't of course makes it even

25:47

more tragic. The guy that took that action, did

25:50

he give any sort of an explanation? Had

25:52

there been something that happened to a family

25:54

member or something? What would cause such a

25:56

reaction like that? Just he

25:58

got children and they did. didn't want drug

26:00

dealers on his estate. The tragedy of this

26:03

is if he'd have been able to

26:06

find the time to actually contact

26:08

the police, I had a team

26:10

of officers in a drug squad

26:13

and I got proactive officers who would

26:15

have targeted that information, developed that information,

26:18

which is exactly what I had to

26:20

do. So we have a

26:23

team tied up with dealing with an attempted

26:25

murder and the offside of

26:27

that was that a drug dealer

26:30

somewhere on this estate, oh sadly,

26:32

looks remarkably like the victim. So

26:35

that was the other twist to it. And

26:37

very quickly, we located always

26:39

the person that was involved in

26:41

drug dealing and he was arrested

26:43

and prosecuted and sent to prison. The

26:47

guy that was charged with attempted

26:49

murder, as you said, he's a

26:51

family man, he's got children and

26:53

he's just at his wit's end

26:55

for whatever, he got a

26:57

21 year minimum sentence

26:59

for attempted murder. Yeah,

27:02

I actually had a look at a

27:04

newspaper clip this afternoon before I came in

27:06

reporting on the case. He

27:09

was 33 years old that man and

27:13

the newspaper reported is he'd

27:16

actually got 24 years, but

27:18

nonetheless over two decades in

27:20

prison as a minimum life

27:22

sentence. So he's

27:25

still in prison over

27:27

something and this is where

27:29

vigilantism is something that the police,

27:32

we discourage people for all

27:34

the reasons that this case highlights.

27:37

Don't take the law into hands, every little

27:40

piece of information you're passing, if he'd have

27:42

come to us with that information, what he

27:44

didn't know is there might

27:46

be an intelligence package that we're already working

27:48

on to develop it from other sources. As

27:51

it turned out, there were bits of information that

27:54

we were able to action and

27:57

he wouldn't be in

27:59

prison. The drug

28:01

dealer got quite a relatively

28:03

low sentence. I think it was either

28:05

six or twelve months imprisonment. He

28:08

didn't have to do what he did. He

28:10

ruined his own life, his own family's life,

28:12

his family's reputation. He ruined the

28:14

lives of the poor man who just

28:17

wanted to catch up with a family member on his

28:19

way home because he was running late. And

28:25

again, I have to ask the question, why

28:27

would you do that? Why would you put

28:29

yourself in that position? The

28:31

police are the people to go to if

28:33

you've got concerns, go to the police, pass

28:36

that information on and let the police try and deal

28:38

with it. Don't set the law into your own hands.

28:42

And there's just a catalogue of

28:44

disaster and heartbreak left behind

28:46

by people doing what he did. The

28:49

gentleman that was in the car, did he make

28:51

a full recovery as much as you can after

28:53

something such as that? Well

28:56

obviously his life was

28:59

ruined, significant injuries.

29:04

I'll quote from a reporter's

29:06

notes, we'll spoke to him. He

29:10

was specifically asked that question and his

29:13

response was, I still have anger inside

29:15

me. I haven't had time just

29:17

to sit and think about things. I just want to try

29:19

and put this behind me and get on with the rest

29:21

of my life. Not

29:23

defeatist language but a resignation that

29:25

my life has changed and

29:28

I just need time to reconcile it and

29:30

come to terms with it. He

29:32

didn't die, his injuries

29:34

obviously have had numerous skin

29:37

grafts and yeah,

29:40

you can just tell that from

29:43

that comment he's just completely disillusioned

29:45

and can't understand why

29:47

this has happened to him. That's

29:50

all he did was pull off a main road onto

29:52

his 8th street to make a phone call.

30:00

about it's in a case like this,

30:02

it's just a decision made

30:04

in a heartbeat that leads to a

30:06

disastrous outcome. In

30:08

a 32 year career, you've

30:10

seen a lot, you chose that story

30:13

amongst the others. What

30:15

was your motivation behind choosing that

30:17

particular story? I

30:20

think it's just to

30:22

highlight a very strong social message

30:24

really. It's the

30:27

police have a difficult job and they don't

30:29

always get it right, we know that. But

30:33

someone's life, a number

30:35

of people's lives have been changed by

30:37

people not doing

30:40

the right thing. It's a strong message, it's

30:42

a social message that we

30:44

don't do that because of everything

30:46

we've discussed and if you've got

30:48

that kind of information that you

30:51

can share or you've got

30:53

those feelings, don't act on

30:55

them because it's not

30:57

what's expected and it's a

30:59

harrowing story. It was

31:01

completely avoidable and we've

31:05

all heard people in bars saying

31:07

what they'd like to do to people and

31:11

sadly people get it wrong and when

31:13

it does go wrong it's usually catastrophic and

31:15

the messaging I wanted to put across there

31:18

is talk to the police,

31:21

get that message out, relate with people,

31:24

don't do something as hideous

31:26

as that gentleman chose to

31:28

do. So

31:31

Nigel after 32 years of

31:33

service, you're in your late 40s at

31:35

that time, still a relatively young man,

31:37

there came time to step away from

31:39

the job but it was

31:41

a set of circumstances that you didn't, the

31:43

impression I got you weren't totally happy

31:46

with it and perhaps totally not in control

31:48

of that situation. How did that come about? At

31:52

the time I retired around 2012-2013 and the run up to that,

31:54

the government were looking at

31:58

making efficiencies over the years. and

32:01

police forces were being asked to make

32:03

cuts and the chief constables

32:05

were looking at how they could make cuts

32:07

and where they could make savings. There were

32:10

different calculations being used. What does 5% cut

32:12

in cost look like? What does 10 look

32:14

like? What does 20?

32:17

So a couple of years before

32:19

I retired I actually received correspondence

32:22

from my chief officer asking me

32:24

what my intentions were because

32:27

I was one of a number of officers that were due

32:29

to come up to 30 years so

32:31

30 years you can retire and

32:36

there was a little known regulation

32:38

called Regulation 33 which is

32:41

hidden in police regulations or was at the

32:43

time where a chief constable

32:45

on the grounds of efficiency could order you

32:47

to retire. So whilst

32:50

I was told that that wasn't going to be

32:52

implemented I came at a

32:54

time of service and I were looking at the

32:57

political landscape and

32:59

it was at that point I made the

33:01

decision that I needed to consider an alternative

33:03

career because if that

33:06

was going to be imposed I'd soon

33:08

have choice over my own destiny and

33:10

future rather than mittled you've

33:13

got to retire so I started planning for a

33:15

second career. And that

33:17

stepping away from from the job in the

33:19

UK some years later led to a decision

33:21

2018 or thereabouts I think Nigel to to

33:23

come here

33:27

to Australia. Can you just share with us

33:29

the role now because I think there's an

33:31

interesting circle back into from

33:33

your policing career into into what it

33:35

is you're doing now through Charles Sturt

33:38

University? Yeah I mean it

33:40

was a fantastic opportunity that was afforded

33:42

me. So when I made the

33:44

decision I was going to leave I planned

33:48

some further studies. I've been doing

33:50

some training to junior

33:52

officers in our crime training department

33:54

so I decided to qualify myself

33:56

as a teacher because I

33:58

found I enjoyed passing on. knowledge

34:01

to junior officers and

34:03

I went into higher education so

34:06

I got myself qualification I

34:08

then studied a master's qualification

34:11

in international criminal justice which

34:14

I found really interesting. I was

34:16

working in AHA and an opportunity was

34:18

presented and I was asked would I

34:20

be interested in applying because

34:22

there might be some vacancies coming up. It

34:24

was a colleague I knew who was working

34:26

out here and he said just

34:29

keep an eye on website there might be some

34:31

adverts coming up and it was no more complicated

34:33

than that and obviously in my

34:37

early 50s to mid 50s

34:40

I looked at the job advert I got all

34:42

the requisite skills that they were asking for I

34:44

got the experience to come out as a lecturer

34:47

and I thought why not why would

34:49

I not do that and come out on a temporary visa

34:52

which was being offered and I've

34:54

never looked back since. It's

34:56

one of the best decisions I've ever

34:58

made. Just to clarify Nigel that role

35:00

through Charles Stute University is you overseeing

35:03

the School of Policing Studies

35:05

down there in Melbourne? I may have got the terminology

35:07

wrong but that's the sort of role that you're now

35:09

in. Yeah so initially I

35:11

came out as a lecturer so I was

35:13

teaching on the program. I'm now

35:16

the role is the associate head of school so

35:18

I oversee the

35:21

course of study and make sure that things

35:23

are running administratively

35:27

well that the teaching staff we're recruiting

35:29

properly and we've got people with the

35:31

right skill set. Obviously

35:33

student experience all

35:35

that kind of managerial role now which

35:37

which I really enjoy and

35:39

I work closely with the head of school in making

35:41

sure that we try and get

35:44

the program to be the best it possibly can.

35:47

Interesting for you with a 32

35:49

year career in the UK police

35:52

now in such a senior role

35:54

overseeing the education of Australian

35:56

police. There must be a lot of similarities

35:59

but perhaps some different differences as well from

36:01

the training in the UK. The

36:03

major differences, I mean New

36:05

Zealand Australia full of Commonwealth law

36:08

so it's not as daunting

36:10

as you might think coming across here because

36:12

a lot of case law that's used here

36:14

comes from Commonwealth law and cases

36:17

I'm familiar with so the legislation I

36:19

understood Australia's

36:22

got its own nuances and different

36:24

legislation but the principles are the

36:26

same. The only difference

36:28

between the UK and Australia that

36:32

I think is noticeable is all

36:35

police officers in New South Wales are routinely

36:37

armed in the UK they're

36:39

not there is a definite need for firearms and

36:41

a firearm response in the world in which these

36:43

people are living in but

36:46

I'm not a

36:48

massive advocate of being routinely armed but

36:51

that's just me I'm seeing as

36:53

a bit strange in that respect by my

36:55

colleagues in Australia. Nigel

36:58

our first guest who's

37:00

an ex UK police officer 32

37:03

years serving the good people of Yorkshire

37:06

and surrounds thank you so

37:08

much for coming in thank you for

37:10

your service thank you for your continued

37:12

service now here in Australia and it's

37:14

been great to meet you and thanks

37:16

for dropping in for a chat. My

37:19

pleasure and can I thank Australia for accepting

37:21

me as the Yorkshire ambassador. Thanks

37:23

so much thank you. you