0:03

A Warning.

0:05

This episode contains references to

0:07

violent crimes. The number

0:10

for Lifeline is 13 11 14. Please listen with care. Welcome

0:21

to Crime Insider's Forensics. For

0:24

those joining us for the first time, my

0:26

name's Katherine Fox. I'm a

0:28

former GP, crime author and screenwriter.

0:32

I'm enthralled by forensics and have spent

0:35

thousands of hours researching for books and

0:37

screenplays. So, I thought,

0:40

why not turn my research into

0:42

a podcast? Every week,

0:45

you'll be joining me in discovering

0:47

how forensic science is helping solve

0:49

high profile crimes in Australia and

0:51

around the world. This

0:55

week, how firearm and

0:57

ballistic analysis helped catch one

0:59

of Australia's most notorious killers.

1:02

I was wanted to or needed to sift

1:04

the soil underneath the head looking for the

1:07

three missing bullets. That would indicate

1:09

that she'd been shot at that location as opposed

1:11

to being shot somewhere else and then transported. Jared

1:15

Dutton is one of Australia's

1:17

most respected ballistic experts. It's

1:21

Jared's job to inspect and analyse

1:23

a crime scene through the lens

1:25

of guns, bullets and explosives. The

1:28

evidence that I found and the evidence I examined

1:30

was indicative of two people.

1:32

It makes no sense to me that

1:34

only one person was involved there. He'll

1:37

recreate, reconstruct and often reenact

1:39

crimes to get to the

1:41

truth and to bring justice

1:43

for those who may have been injured or

1:45

killed. One

1:48

case that stood out to Jared is that

1:50

of Ivan Millett. Now,

1:53

this is a case that a lot of

1:55

you know well, but the ballistics evidence is

1:57

something I hadn't heard before and it's example

2:01

of how forensics can help catch

2:03

a killer. I

2:08

was attached to the New South Wales Police Ballistic Section at the

2:10

time. We take turns being on

2:13

call for probably a week at a

2:15

time or thereabouts and any shootings

2:18

requiring our attendance were available

2:20

to attend either in office

2:23

hours or out of normal hours over the

2:25

weekends etc and I was on call at

2:28

the time the first two bodies were found

2:30

in the Blanglow Forest and I remember

2:32

I was with my partner going to another job in

2:34

the Blue Mountains at that time

2:36

we were we operated as the bomb

2:39

squad and a suspected device was

2:41

placed outside I think it was the Katoomba

2:43

council chambers we were heading up to there

2:45

and we heard on commercial radio actually that

2:48

two bodies been found in the Blanglow Forest

2:50

south of Sydney and I do

2:52

recall even saying to my partner at that time or

2:54

gee you know if they're if they've been shot

2:56

will be at an autopsy the following day because

2:59

that's part of our role and indeed that's how

3:01

it panned out because that one of the two

3:03

victims one of them had been shot

3:05

multiple times and in the head and that's how

3:07

I first came involved heading

3:09

to the autopsy at the Glebe mortuary the

3:11

next day for the post

3:13

mortem examination upon Caroline Clark and

3:16

she was shot as it

3:18

turned out ten times in the head with a 22 caliber

3:20

firearm given the

3:22

body was decomposed how

3:25

much information could you garner from the

3:27

post mortem they

3:30

disappeared around April and they weren't

3:33

found I think it was September and

3:35

so they'd been lying in the forest Blanglow

3:37

Forest over the winter months and

3:40

indeed they'd been one of the bodies

3:42

was placed underneath an overhanging

3:45

rock and the other was covered with

3:47

with bush refuse and branches and whatnot

3:49

so they were protected from

3:51

the elements somewhat and also it was the

3:53

cooler months so the decomposition that you'd normally

3:55

expect was not as bad as so much

3:57

as sometimes you're just left with skeletal remains

4:00

mains and there's no there's no flesh

4:02

so know

4:04

how someone might have died because

4:07

if their injury was only soft tissue

4:09

which has since decomposed what that evidence

4:11

was no longer there. So

4:14

the condition of those two bodies was not

4:17

too bad and so at the mortuary of

4:19

course yes they were partially decomposed but certainly

4:21

we weren't dealing with a skeleton and

4:24

it was some you know the bodies are

4:26

x-rayed and it was clear from with Carolyn

4:28

Clark at least that she had multiple objects

4:30

inside her head and you could see even

4:32

the bullet defects in

4:35

the skull from the x-rays and

4:37

so us attending the

4:39

autopsy is not only to recover those

4:41

bullets for later examination but we were

4:43

trying to work out if we can

4:45

the direction the bullets were fired from

4:47

and any other evidence which is going

4:49

to assist us in trying to work

4:51

out what's happened in the Commission of

4:53

these crimes and indeed what evidence we've

4:55

got which might help tie us to

4:57

the offender or offenders. So

5:00

postmortem then presumably you have the photographs from the

5:02

scene and angles of

5:05

head anything like that is that presuming

5:07

too much already or not? At that

5:09

time I don't know whether I would have had seen

5:12

photos these days when photos are

5:14

quickly uploaded digitally to a sort of

5:16

database we use a forensic register and

5:18

in fact a lot of the states

5:20

in Australia use a program which captures

5:22

all this information both in written form

5:24

or typed form and photographs probably

5:27

wasn't until later that actually got to see

5:29

photos of the scene and the context in

5:31

which the bodies were found because that becomes

5:33

important in the event with Carolyn

5:35

Clark we found seven bullets in her

5:37

skull and yet there were ten entry

5:40

wounds so three bullets were missing where are

5:42

they and so of course then it

5:45

becomes highly relevant where was she

5:47

in the forest where was she lying I

5:49

was wanted to needed to sift the soil

5:51

underneath her head looking for

5:53

the three missing bullets because

5:55

that would indicate that she'd been shot at

5:57

that location as opposed to being shot. somewhere

6:00

else and then transported to another location

6:03

and indeed also looking for

6:05

the presence of any fired cartridge cases

6:08

and indeed that's what we found near her body with

6:10

10-22 calibre fired cartridge

6:12

cases from the murder weapon only several

6:14

metres from where she was secreted

6:17

next to a large log. For

6:19

people who aren't familiar and I

6:22

think a lot of people in Australia particularly are

6:24

not familiar with guns and ammunition, can

6:26

you describe that it was in a cartridge and a bullet?

6:29

Cartridges are often mistakenly referred to as

6:31

bullets, meaning a whole unit if you

6:34

like, it's not correct. A bullet is

6:36

a part of a cartridge. So

6:38

a cartridge consists of the bullet which is

6:40

the part that leaves the gun, cartridge case

6:42

which is generally a brass container

6:45

if you like which holds the bullet

6:47

and within the cartridge itself there's gunpowder

6:49

or propellant and a

6:51

primer. There's two main forms of

6:54

primer, basically that's the ignition source

6:56

for the propellant so when the

6:58

firing pin strikes the cartridge the

7:00

primer which is a pressure sensitive

7:02

chemical explodes it ignites the propellant

7:04

and that creates a large amount

7:06

of gas which

7:08

burns very quickly and that's what propels the bullet from

7:10

the gun. Bullet leaves

7:12

the gun, you've still got what remains

7:14

in the gun as the cartridge case

7:16

and that needs to be removed or

7:19

extracted for a fresh

7:21

cartridge to go into the chamber. Now

7:23

that can be done manually or it can be done by

7:25

the mechanism of the firearm itself. For example

7:27

in a bolt action rifle you have to

7:30

manipulate the bolt itself, the breech

7:32

bolt via a handle to lift it up,

7:34

pull it back, that extracts and ejects the

7:36

fired case, you push it forward, push it

7:38

down again and then you've chambered a new

7:41

cartridge ready for firing.

7:43

So there's lots of different ways that can

7:45

happen but suffice to say you either pull

7:47

it out yourself by means of the mechanism

7:49

or the mechanism does it for you in

7:52

the case of a semi-automatic or a self-loading

7:54

weapon and you need for machine guns. removed

8:00

or just ejected from the weapon. Once

8:03

I'd had a look at the bullets we had

8:05

recovered in the cartridge case, we were fortunate in

8:08

this particular case, I was able

8:10

to determine that the type of firearm that

8:12

was used to kill Carolyn Clark at that

8:14

scene was a self-loading or semi-automatic firearm

8:17

and in fact it was a type of Ruger

8:19

rifle, a common form of

8:21

semi-automatic Ruger rifle. I

8:23

was able to determine that by looking at the marks

8:26

left on both the bullet and the cartridge case

8:28

because the marks left behind were

8:31

particular to that model of rifle only

8:34

and didn't apply to other forms of

8:36

firearms because sometimes when we have these

8:38

sorts of instances occur, we'll

8:40

say to the investigators look let's say a

8:42

22 caliber firearm was used but

8:45

we know from the database that there

8:47

are dozens and dozens of manufacturers that

8:49

construct their rifles in this way and

8:51

use a similar form of

8:53

rifling or dimensions of rifling etc which

8:55

means that we can only give them

8:57

a list of possible types and

9:00

that might be a four-page of a

9:02

couple of dozen or even more. In this case

9:04

I was able to say the investigators look based

9:06

on what we've got this was

9:09

this model rifle because the marks

9:11

were peculiar only to that

9:13

model of rifle and that was really fortunate because

9:15

then we can narrow our focus instead of thinking

9:17

oh gosh you know there's many

9:19

different makes and models that could be

9:21

responsible where do you start that's easier

9:23

if you know that you've only got

9:25

one maker model to look at. In

9:29

terms of caliber can you just briefly

9:31

talk us through caliber and the significance and

9:35

what it actually means? You

9:37

can talk about generic or

9:39

nominal caliber and specific caliber

9:41

so what was used in this

9:43

case was a 22 caliber firearm.

9:46

22 basically means it's

9:48

approximately the cartridge or the bullet is

9:50

0.22 of an inch in diameter so

9:52

if we talk about a 38 caliber

9:55

bullet that's going to be 0.38 of an

9:57

inch a 45 caliber bullet. Now

10:01

that's an imperial way of saying things and

10:04

the Europeans use a metric term

10:06

and in fact 22 calibre is actually 5.6mm

10:08

and that's also correct. Calibre

10:11

designation is an absolute minefield

10:13

of there's no consistency is

10:16

just developed the way it is and the way

10:19

cartridges are named and called is just

10:21

a dog's breakfast let's say. So

10:24

if we say a 22 rifle is

10:26

a nominal .22 of an inch then

10:28

you have specific calibre. In

10:31

this case the specific calibre used

10:33

was a 22 long rifle cartridge.

10:36

That's the name of the cartridge and that's a rimfire

10:38

cartridge. To give you another example of a

10:40

22 calibre cartridge is .223 Remington.

10:44

That's another type of 22 calibre cartridge

10:46

but it's very different from the 22 long rifle

10:49

and in fact when we talk

10:51

about 22 calibre there's many many different

10:53

types of cartridges that have

10:55

that same nominal calibre but their

10:58

specific calibre is different

11:00

and so these cartridges are different sizes,

11:02

different lengths. The only commonality is

11:04

that they have a bullet that's

11:06

approximately .22 of an inch

11:08

and after that the variations are

11:11

quite wide. And

11:13

at the autopsy there

11:16

are seven bullets contained within the

11:19

skull of one of the

11:21

victims. How

11:23

do you go about determining entry and

11:25

exit wounds and from where they could

11:27

have been fired from which direction for

11:29

example first? Bullets

11:32

were named to bone

11:35

and particularly bone like the skull which

11:37

is a sort of brittle substance.

11:40

The hole will leave a clean entry on

11:42

the outer table of the bone but on

11:44

the inner surface of the skull once the

11:46

brain's been removed you can see a cratering

11:49

effect where the bullets as it's

11:51

on its passage through the bone actually

11:53

punch out pieces of bone so that

11:55

you have a clean round

11:58

hole on the entry surface. side, but

12:00

on the exit side it leaves a crater

12:02

and that gives you an idea

12:04

of the directionality and in fact if you shot

12:06

the skull from inside out you would get the

12:08

opposite of that because that's just how that material

12:11

behaves when struck with bullets. Carolyn

12:14

Clark was shot ten times as

12:16

I mentioned and from three

12:18

different directions, the left, right

12:20

and the rear and the

12:23

cratering inside the inner table of the skull was

12:25

quite even because if bullets hit at an angle

12:27

you won't get an evenly

12:29

shaped defect and so the

12:32

way each of these bullet

12:34

holes were, their locations

12:37

and their actual shapes indicated that

12:39

the bullets had pretty much hit the bone

12:41

perpendicular and because we

12:44

had three different directions they're coming from it meant

12:46

that either the body

12:48

was moved in between and the shooter was

12:50

still and shots were fired, the

12:52

body moved, shots were fired, the body moved

12:54

and the shots were fired to account for

12:57

those three different directions or the

12:59

shooters moved around the victim

13:01

firing from different angles. Now

13:05

because the ten cartridge cases that we

13:07

found in the forest near her body

13:09

were all in one small area and

13:13

knowing that the Ruger 10-22 rifle is

13:15

a semi-automatic rifle and it automatically ejects

13:18

the cartridge cases, the shooter

13:20

stayed virtually in the same spot for

13:22

all ten shots because all the

13:24

cartridge cases rejected into a very small

13:26

area. Had the

13:28

shooter walked around the body to account

13:30

for those different angles into the head, the

13:33

cartridge cases would have been spread over a

13:35

much wider area. So that's just an

13:37

example of something we

13:39

can determine from a reconstructive aspect

13:41

what's happened. So did

13:43

the shooter fire several times

13:45

into her head, move the

13:48

body, pick up the gun, fire again or

13:50

was there another person moving the body for

13:52

whatever reason as it was rolled in towards

13:54

the log where she was found. But

13:56

in any case it was fairly clear that

13:58

the shooter didn't move. for all

14:00

10 shots and that is important and the

14:03

fact also that we found three bullets in

14:05

the soil underneath where her head

14:07

was indicated that she was

14:10

shot at that location. So that may or

14:12

may not be critical evidence but it allows

14:14

us to tell something as to how this

14:16

event took place. Would

14:19

you request to go back to the crime scene?

14:22

Obviously these

14:25

remains were brought to the morgue before you

14:27

got to see them. Yeah

14:29

absolutely in fact what the how it would

14:32

normally work is we would be at the scene firstly

14:35

then we'd be at the autopsy

14:37

then I always go back to the scene because

14:40

armed with that information from from

14:43

the autopsy you can then have

14:45

a greater understanding of the scene

14:47

and so it's vitally important to

14:49

go back a second time from

14:52

from my perspective and I'll pretty

14:55

much always do that and in this

14:57

case of course we didn't go to

14:59

the scene initially the crime scene examiners

15:01

from Goulburn attended and but

15:04

of course once the bodies get to the

15:07

mortuary their x-ray just one of them has

15:09

multiple bullet wounds in the head then

15:11

we get involved so in

15:13

this case it was your topsy first but

15:15

then going back to the scene and looking

15:17

at where was the body and then of

15:19

course that's when we found cartridge cases and

15:21

the other evidence like the extra bullets in

15:23

the soil and indeed anything else

15:25

that's going to be of a

15:28

value or have evidentiary value.

15:31

You've been to

15:33

the post-mortem you've retrieved the bullets and

15:36

you've got cartridges from the scene what is the next

15:38

step for you you go back to the lab and

15:40

what happens? So after

15:42

we finished with the scene and that

15:45

was a good result because it was clear

15:47

Carolyn Clark had been shot ten times in

15:49

the head the travelling companion Joanne Walters she'd

15:52

been stabbed to death no

15:54

firearm injury so she was

15:56

shot ten times in the head we

15:58

recovered a total of ten bullets and

16:00

there were 10 cartridge cases. That

16:02

was great because we don't normally

16:04

recover certainly

16:07

all the bullets and indeed

16:10

the cartridge cases for example could be picked up and

16:12

we don't have those at all. But

16:15

what we'll do after collecting that is we'll

16:17

take the bullets back

16:20

to the laboratory essentially they'll need

16:22

to be cleaned because these bullets when

16:24

the skull of Carolyn

16:27

was opened as I said this

16:29

should have been lying in the forest for some months and

16:32

so the decomposed brain had settled

16:34

into a pool on one side of the

16:37

head and we were recovering

16:39

the bullets just using gloved hands

16:41

scooping this stuff out with our fingers because

16:44

they're just looking for little hard lumps because

16:46

you don't want to use a sharp tool or a

16:48

metal tool to recover these because they could mark the

16:51

bullet and that was the process

16:53

and I clearly remember doing that with

16:55

Peter Brett who was the forensic pathologist

16:58

and here's one clink and we dropped that

17:00

into the tray here's another one so it

17:02

was that was that was how these were

17:04

recovered but then we might rinse

17:07

them at the mortuary but back in the lab we'll give

17:09

them a proper cleaning of decomposed

17:11

material and then

17:13

we're going to microscopically examine

17:16

the features left on the surface of the bullets and

17:19

we're going to microscopically examine and measure

17:21

the features on the cartridge cases now

17:25

when a cartridge is fired in a gun from

17:27

it the moment it's loaded into a magazine fed

17:30

into the chamber fired extracted in it

17:32

and the case ejected that

17:35

process will mark both the case and the

17:37

bullet in certain ways so anywhere where the

17:39

cartridge case in this case they were made

17:42

of brass there's relatively soft metal compared to

17:44

the steel of the firearm mechanism everywhere

17:47

they they contact the the

17:49

firearm mechanism has the potential to

17:52

leave small

17:55

microscopic what can be microscopic

17:57

marks and they can be a like scratch

18:00

marks or they can be like impressed marks. So

18:02

the firing pin impression for example, when

18:04

you pull the trigger the firing pin hits the rim of

18:07

the rimfire cartridge, hitting the

18:09

rim crushes the priming compound I explained

18:11

before that ignites the cartridge. So

18:14

the firing pin impression in the

18:16

brass rim is an imprint of

18:18

the face of the firing pin.

18:20

And microscopically the face of that

18:22

firing pin, we're only talking several millimeters square

18:25

in size, has

18:28

geographical features which impress

18:30

themselves into the brass. The

18:33

bullets when they're fired from the gun, they're

18:35

in intimate contact with the inner surface of

18:37

the barrel, the bore. And as

18:40

the bullet travels down the bore, they're

18:42

in part of a twist from what's called the

18:44

rifling. That twist spins

18:47

the bullet so that when it leaves

18:49

the barrel, it has gyroscopic stability. That's

18:51

what gives it accuracy. And that intimate

18:54

contact of the bullet with the surface

18:56

of the bore is basically scratching it.

18:58

And so the surface of the board,

19:00

which is in contact with the inner

19:03

surface of the barrel, has

19:05

a series of very fine

19:07

scratches, both from the rifling, which is

19:09

cut into the bore by the manufacturer

19:12

of that particular gun, as

19:14

well as even finer scratches

19:16

which are particular to that

19:18

barrel and not other barrels. So

19:21

when we measure relative locations,

19:23

widths, and sizes of all these features,

19:26

we can then refer to a database

19:28

which has basically been compiled for many,

19:30

many decades. The FBI in

19:33

America started this database, but now it's

19:35

administered by the Association of Firemen Tillmark

19:37

Examiners, which is the friendly group

19:39

of people who deal with these sorts of incidents.

19:41

It's the largest of its type in the world.

19:44

And that database is

19:46

of thousands, tens of thousands

19:49

of different firearms and

19:51

the sizes and widths and

19:53

types of rifling, firing pins,

19:55

extractors, ejectors, breech face types.

19:57

All of these characteristics are measurable. and

20:00

the database lists many of these

20:02

firearms. It's never complete because there's

20:04

always new guns and there's

20:07

a lot of obviously rarer guns which

20:09

probably might not be on there. But

20:12

by measuring the information on

20:14

the bullets and cartridge cases, comparing it

20:16

to this database, that tells

20:19

you then these guns based on whatever

20:23

parameters you have, it

20:25

indicates the type of gun that could

20:29

have fired those cartridge cases

20:31

and bullets. And I mentioned earlier, when

20:35

I went through this process, it indicated only one

20:37

gun. And primarily that was not

20:39

only from the type of rifling employed in

20:41

the Ruger 10-22 rifle, but

20:44

the type of firing pin employed in

20:46

this particular gun at that time, not

20:48

now, they've changed it, but

20:50

at that time it was a particular shape

20:52

and offset between 12 and

20:54

1 o'clock in relative location terms when

20:57

looking at the breech face. It's the

20:59

only gun that's out there that leaves these

21:02

types of characteristics. And so

21:04

we could say to the investigators, look,

21:07

the gun that was used to kill Carolyn Clark

21:09

was a 22 caliber Ruger

21:12

self-loading rifle or semi-automatic rifle. That's the

21:14

gun that was used and

21:16

we can discount all others. That's

21:18

really, really helpful because you

21:20

can narrow the search down. But as time

21:22

went on, I looked at other Ruger

21:24

10-22s coming in for examination

21:27

for other jobs. And like

21:29

a lot of jobs that we

21:31

get with murders that

21:33

aren't initially solved, these

21:35

get stored in the ballistic section and

21:38

they're referred to from time to time

21:40

when we get other Ruger rifles for

21:42

examination or were requested to check a

21:44

particular gun against those exhibits. But

21:47

that's what happened in this case. These series

21:49

of murders, or at least for the two

21:51

girls or Clark, wasn't solved straight away and

21:54

the exhibits ended up being folded in

21:56

what we call our unsolved crime drills

21:58

that has... bullets and cartridge

22:00

cases from many, many shootings,

22:03

which a suspect or an offender has

22:05

never been identified. And all we can

22:07

do as the time goes on is

22:09

compare other guns that come into the

22:11

section against what we physically have in

22:13

these unsolved crimes to see if we

22:15

can by chance come across the murder

22:17

gun. And that's what happened. And they

22:19

got filed away and looked at less

22:21

and less because we

22:23

didn't know who killed them. And it wasn't

22:25

forthcoming at that time. And we just

22:27

thought, and I thought, this is just going to be another

22:29

double murder with no

22:32

offender identified. And that sometimes happens.

22:35

And that of course was the process up

22:37

until the time that another couple

22:39

of bodies were found in the blind glow forest.

22:41

But that changed everything at that point. So

22:43

I'd worked out as

22:45

much as I could determine from the exhibits, passed

22:48

that on the investigators. They used that information. They

22:51

followed up undoubtedly many, many other

22:53

inquiries. And as time

22:55

went on, as the months passed, all

22:58

of these leads petered out and it

23:00

really looked like it was going to be an

23:02

unsolved double murder. Just

23:18

to put it in context, this was before

23:20

the Port Arthur massacre in Tasmania. And

23:24

the way Australia treated guns may have been

23:26

different then. How common

23:30

was that weapon in Australia at the time? It

23:32

was a very common and popular rifle. In fact, it's one

23:34

of the finest 22 rifles that's ever

23:37

been made. It really is a very, very

23:39

good design. And of course, the

23:41

gun laws at that point were across

23:43

Australia were much less stringent than they

23:46

are now. So although they would

23:48

know from records from the

23:50

Ruger factory that thousands, indeed

23:52

might have even been tens of thousands they

23:55

knew had been imported into the country, it

23:57

wasn't as clear where they all

23:59

went. that wasn't as easy as it

24:01

might be today to try and track them

24:03

down. And so, of course, we

24:05

looked at, I looked at many,

24:07

many hundreds of Ruger 10-22 rifles during the

24:09

course of this inquiry, on

24:12

the chance of trying to find the murder weapon. And

24:14

it really was a, you know, looking for

24:16

a needle in a haystack because we knew

24:18

there were many, many of these model

24:20

guns in Australia, probably, you might

24:23

think, well, we don't really have to worry

24:25

about Western Australia as much as the ones

24:27

in New South Wales, for example,

24:29

but still, we didn't know where

24:31

they all were. And once we did know, we

24:33

certainly looked at, and as I said, I did

24:35

look at hundreds of these. And

24:37

over a period of years, I

24:40

was comparing test fires I made with

24:42

some of these rifles, compared back

24:44

to the exhibits from the murder scene,

24:46

to try and see if the same

24:48

microscopic marks were showing, which would

24:50

then indicate that, you know, out of

24:52

all the Ruger rifles out there, the

24:54

only one committed was responsible for

24:56

being used in this murder. And, and that's

24:59

what I was looking for. So looking

25:01

for those similarities, microscopically

25:03

between different examples of

25:05

this model rifle, because even though they

25:08

would leave similar marks, just as like

25:10

you might consider, there are many Ford

25:13

Fosteevers out there on the road, let's

25:15

say, Ford imported 2000 blue

25:19

Fosteevers. But if you put them all in one spot,

25:22

they're all going to probably look a little bit different,

25:24

because some are going to have scratches, and some are

25:26

going to have different features, and one's got

25:28

a ball bar, or one might have a tow bar, and so

25:30

on and so forth. So

25:32

there are there are things which allow us to, even though

25:35

they're all the same model, you look

25:37

closer, and you can tell them apart. And

25:39

indeed, that's what it was like. For

25:42

the 1022 rifle we were looking for,

25:44

is looking for those idiosyncratic

25:46

things which were appearing on the

25:49

murder exhibits, looking for that turning

25:52

up on another example of

25:54

that rifle. So what was

25:56

the next step for you

25:58

in that case? Over the

26:00

period of months following as I said, I looked

26:03

at many test firings. I

26:05

testified many, many dozens, in fact,

26:07

hundreds of 10-22s. I

26:10

did go and look at a whole swag of 10-22

26:13

rifles which had been tested as

26:15

a result of several years earlier,

26:17

Assistant Commissioner Colin Winchester of the AFP

26:19

was shot dead in Canberra. A

26:22

Ruger 10-22 rifle was used in that particular

26:24

murder and they had a lot

26:27

of test firings from different

26:29

10-22 rifles. So I went

26:31

down to Canberra and looked

26:33

at all their test firings. Just

26:36

because they've got quite a lot all

26:38

in one go, it made perfect sense

26:41

to it. Let's see if Canberra

26:43

is not that far from the Wangloa Forest, it's

26:45

still then the whole Southern Highlands sort of area.

26:48

It was essential I go and have a look at those and of

26:50

course, after physically comparing

26:52

all the ones they had with the murder

26:54

exhibits, there was no, I still

26:57

hadn't found the murder gun. I'm

26:59

moving on to other jobs, these things get

27:02

filed, I might turn up one week, the

27:04

investigators have found another 10-22 rifle, can you

27:06

test for it and check

27:08

it against the murder exhibits? Yep, did that, no, it

27:10

wasn't begun. So my

27:12

contact with that became less and less.

27:15

That all changed in 1993. Another couple

27:17

of bodies were found in the forest and

27:19

it became apparent at that time then that this

27:22

isn't just an isolated thing, it really looks

27:24

like we've got a serial murderer or

27:26

murderers and they're secreting bodies in

27:28

the forest and at that

27:31

point the task force was set up

27:33

to investigate this and indeed one of

27:35

the largest police searches ever conducted and

27:37

so the whole inquiry then kicked

27:39

off in far greater earnestness if you

27:41

like and as a result of that,

27:43

yes more bodies were found, one of

27:45

which was shot and that's when this

27:47

particular snowball really started to gather

27:50

some momentum. You

27:53

were called in, did you attend that scene? The

27:56

Two bodies What were found were a couple of Australians who were travelling

27:58

in the forest. They

28:00

disappeared in a similar sort of time

28:03

frame as as the others sun's out

28:05

hum. Their. Whole

28:07

lot of specialists on standby thing because if

28:09

I realize if we're gonna search the forest

28:11

then if other bodies were found we need

28:13

to be able to. Basically.

28:15

Do what's required. At very short

28:18

notice without sort of then stop the. Joint

28:21

gather everything. It's noises so. I

28:23

was on standby, but it is. It

28:26

turns out those two bodies that was

28:28

and the third and fourth body's not

28:30

are those were shot. They'd been stabbed

28:32

to death and so on our heads.

28:35

Lists. Involvement with that then the sixth

28:37

and seventh bodies sam because of that

28:39

with to Germans and Gabor know your

28:41

bell had been shot six times in

28:44

the heads. So after the third and

28:46

fourth money were found. The.

28:48

System is conducted in the forest. hundreds

28:50

of place searching for many weeks and

28:52

there's only a short time I did

28:55

I sound. Of. His body that

28:57

was smiling. Smittle. She was

28:59

another German. She'd also been stabbed to

29:01

death. There was no evidence of farm

29:04

injury with her inside and my it

29:06

more involvement was limited but when they

29:08

sound the six and seven bodies in

29:10

a similar area in another part of

29:12

forest that's when double know you buried

29:14

been shot six times in the hid

29:17

his companion and you have shade she'd

29:19

been decapitated, we never found her skull

29:21

and I was secreted with the know

29:23

sort of at reasonably close area. But.

29:26

Of most valued at that

29:28

particular scene after going down

29:30

and examining the area where

29:32

the bodies were found because

29:34

it turns. Diving in

29:37

the forest for some years and he had

29:39

bullets any skull but they were so badly

29:41

corroded. All I could say was i with

29:43

point two two caliber point to during fights

29:45

but the max that would have been left

29:48

on them but the gun that followed them.

29:50

Were. Destroyed by the

29:52

decomposition process. And. So

29:55

that was disappointed because I was

29:57

very tiny obviously to. To.

29:59

pay the bullets from his skull to

30:01

the bullets from Carolyn Clark's skull to determine

30:04

if the same firearm had been used. Even

30:06

to determine if it was the same, had

30:09

the same class rifling let alone be

30:11

able to actually identify the same gun.

30:14

But not that far away from

30:16

where their bodies were found, we found an

30:18

area of the offenders had

30:21

set, and I say offenders because I'm quite

30:23

certain there were two

30:25

people at this location. We

30:27

found some cartridge cases, 22 caliber cartridge

30:29

cases. And from memory I think

30:32

there were 47 Winchester cases and 46 Eley

30:34

brand. And of the Winchester

30:37

cases, as I later found when

30:39

I did my microscopic examination back in the

30:41

lab, they were all fired in the same

30:43

gun that was used to kill Carolyn Clark.

30:46

That was unequivocal, the marks were very clear.

30:49

And that was nice

30:52

to be able to definitively

30:54

link two of the crime scenes because although

30:56

we have seven bodies in the forest, we

30:59

can assume it's the same killer or

31:01

killers that was linking the same gun

31:03

used at two locations to show now

31:05

this is definitely the same person or

31:07

persons using the same gun. But

31:09

at that location as it turns out with

31:11

all of the Winchester with the Ruger

31:14

10-22 marks, the Eley brand

31:16

cases all had totally

31:19

different markings on them for totally

31:21

different rifle. And there weren't

31:23

any of the fire and pin impressions and

31:25

other marks that indicated the Winchester brand cartridges

31:27

were used in one gun

31:30

and the Eley in another. It was

31:32

pretty clear to me had two people, each

31:34

with their own gun, firing their own box

31:36

of ammunition. And not

31:38

having any crossover I think is

31:40

very, very telling who that second

31:42

person was, who knows. There's

31:45

always been conjecture about that. But that

31:47

alone from a ballistics perspective to me

31:49

it makes no sense that if

31:52

it was only one person they're just going

31:54

to use one gun with one type of

31:56

cartridge in one rifle then use a

31:58

different gun with a different type. So it

32:00

turns out both of the cartridges used were

32:04

what's called subsonic and

32:06

that means they fire a bullet slower than the

32:08

speed of sound. Now

32:10

why that's important is because the bullets that

32:12

we recovered from Carol

32:15

and Clark had marks on them

32:17

consistent with having been caused by

32:19

the bullets scraping past a battle

32:21

in a sound suppressor. So

32:25

if you use supersonic

32:28

bullets that are fired supersonically with

32:30

a gun fitted with a sound suppressor, that

32:32

will suppress the sound of the discharge of the

32:35

cartridge but you'll still get a supersonic crack as

32:37

the bullet breaks the sound barrier. You can

32:39

silence the gun but not the bullet. Using

32:43

subsonic cartridges or bullets that travel slower

32:45

than the speed of sound, you don't

32:48

get a supersonic crack and the

32:50

sound suppressor suppresses

32:54

the noise of the explosion of the cartridge

32:56

which makes them much, much quieter. And

32:58

so both of those cartridges are

33:01

Winchester and Ealy as it turns out

33:03

fire a subsonic bullet. And

33:06

so that all married up with the

33:08

information that was apparent at that

33:10

time. As I said

33:13

we could draw correlation between two of the

33:15

scenes. And

33:17

correlate between the bullets

33:19

from both victims and that was a shame but

33:22

that's how it is sometimes when this

33:24

worked. It's interesting

33:26

that you suspect there were two different

33:28

people involved of your findings. Did

33:30

the police agree with you, the investigators do you know? Look

33:33

I know Clive Small who is the commander of

33:36

the task force there which was set up to

33:38

investigate the Blanglow forest murders. Always

33:41

steadfastly said he believes it's only one person.

33:44

He would be privy to the information I

33:46

don't have. I'm just looking at it purely

33:48

from a ballistics perspective. And from

33:50

a ballistics perspective the evidence

33:52

that I found and the evidence I examined was

33:57

Indicative of two people. It Makes no sense to

33:59

me. The only one

34:01

person was involved. They're. Based

34:04

on was a said that brains of cartridge

34:06

cases and know cross over of at the

34:08

same with them being used across most brands

34:10

etc. After doing this work for many decades

34:13

now things sort of makes sense on I

34:15

don't make sense to me. that's far more

34:17

logical to me that to pay for involved

34:20

that sign. How

34:22

did you get to actually.

34:26

Examine. The gun

34:28

that was believed to have killed.

34:30

Gambling. Can. Year.

34:33

So this is this is where a

34:35

Be Time sort of caught them. Interesting

34:37

as I said yeah, that's not. The

34:40

snowball was gathering momentum now that we've

34:42

got seven bodies in the task force,

34:44

Often looking at many, many different suspects

34:46

that I thought could have been involved

34:49

at some point Lookout I'm not sure.

34:51

Where the information would have come

34:53

from, but I understand that. Audible

34:55

let and presses Summaries: Brothers whip

34:57

potential suspects along with probably what

34:59

would have been hundreds and hundreds

35:01

of other potential suspects. Pull.

35:04

Onions who was a backpacker who.

35:07

He was back in England for

35:09

London's and and saying i understand

35:11

something in the major about the

35:13

and will these bodies banks and

35:15

in the forests and have I

35:17

been abducted and so on and

35:19

he thought oh goodness yeah that

35:21

that sounds like a something always

35:23

some went through so he was

35:25

it picked up as a hitchhiker

35:28

I'm in those on the southern

35:30

outskirts of Sydney a belief and

35:32

driven sails boy a chap who

35:34

who. at some points that addicts act

35:36

a little strange and then pull leisure on

35:38

the pretext of getting some to set sail

35:40

from hundred and eighty seat or something like

35:42

that which poll said he thought was on

35:45

because it sits in the center console and

35:47

when he pulled over just off the highway

35:49

on the on the him always you had

35:51

said he's a three some of the seat

35:53

and pulled out a a revolver and and

35:56

wrote which as poll said it wasn't the

35:58

revolved into stay me as well as much

36:00

as the road did. He managed to

36:02

get away from that situation and ran down the

36:04

road. That person fired after him with this revolver,

36:07

but he wasn't struck. And he piled

36:09

into a car that he managed to flag

36:11

down and went and reported this incident

36:14

to the police. But it was

36:16

never properly followed up for whatever reason.

36:19

And again, I can't come on what

36:21

happened there. But then, you know,

36:23

years later when he's watching this media story

36:26

about all these bodies coming turned up in

36:28

the forest, he thought, wow, that's too

36:32

close to my experience to be

36:35

a coincidence, surely. And he got in contact through, obviously,

36:38

through his local police

36:41

who perhaps were interpalled with the task

36:44

force. And he told his story and

36:46

they were very interested in that. And they

36:48

flew him to Australia to conduct an interview

36:50

and indeed to run through

36:52

some possible suspects. And because he had such

36:54

a good description, Paul was a

36:56

great witness and he had very clear

36:59

recollection of some of the issues that

37:02

he was able to narrow down the list of suspects.

37:04

And when he was shown photos

37:06

of possible suspects, which fitted

37:08

his description, lo and behold,

37:10

he's identified Ivan Malat,

37:12

who is one of any

37:15

number at that point, I understand. So

37:18

when the task force now look into

37:20

the movements of Ivan Malat and

37:22

what he was doing at the times, the people

37:24

have disappeared. Interestingly, you find that

37:27

Malat was either on holidays or

37:29

sick or was otherwise not at

37:31

work on the days that these

37:34

seven victims have disappeared. And

37:36

the closer they looked, the more interesting

37:39

he became as a suspect because things were

37:41

starting to fall into place and

37:43

everything was starting to indicate more and more that

37:46

he was a very good suspect as

37:48

opposed to sort of ruling him

37:50

out for whatever reason. A series

37:53

of raids were carried out on Ivan

37:55

Malat's property and some of the

37:57

other members of his family and they were conducted.

38:00

simultaneously. I was involved

38:02

in conducting a

38:04

search upon his house with a couple

38:07

of the detectives from the task force

38:09

and the crime scene

38:11

chap who had carried you this from the

38:13

very start from Goulburn. We

38:15

just wanted to look through the house and just see what was

38:18

what evidence might be

38:20

immediately apparent which might be useful

38:23

but on the morning of that first day that one of

38:25

the detectives was up in the ceiling space there

38:28

was a whole lot of boxes of

38:30

Christmas decorations and other stuff stored up

38:32

in the ceiling space but but this

38:34

detective was was actually running

38:36

along the wall cavities which

38:38

were filled with bats in

38:40

one particular location he's shown his torch and

38:42

could see a plastic bag resting on a

38:44

noggin about a meter down inside one of

38:46

the wall cavities and he recovered

38:48

this looked inside and

38:51

he and he called for me and I went and

38:53

had a look what he's found and

38:56

I was tremendously excited because inside the

38:58

bag was a an aftermarket

39:00

magazine for a Ruger 10-22 and most

39:04

importantly a complete brick bolt assembly that

39:06

I knew instantly was from a Ruger

39:08

10-22 rifle because I was very familiar

39:10

with it by that stage and the I

39:14

was tremendously excited to see that

39:16

because what's the chance why would

39:19

anyone disassemble a gun and leave certain

39:21

components in inside a wall cavity and

39:24

so I was very interested to look closely at

39:26

this breach bolt and and

39:28

indeed after three days of helping search

39:30

and not you know assist with any

39:32

firearms evidence that was at that house

39:35

and that included most

39:38

parts of the Ruger rifle we never

39:40

the barrel we never found we

39:42

didn't find the stock of a cocking lever but

39:44

all the other components because this gun had been

39:46

disassembled we found in

39:49

various locations and

39:51

for example the receiver that part

39:53

of the gun which has the Sierra number stamped on

39:55

it was found wrapped in plastic and a boot in

39:57

a hall cupboard so And

40:00

they had disassembled the gun, probably got rid

40:02

of the barrel because he knew that

40:05

police could potentially match bullets

40:07

but didn't understand fully what we could do

40:10

with the breach bolt in relation to the cartridge

40:12

cases. So after three days I

40:14

told the commander of the task force,

40:17

you know, I really need to examine this in the

40:19

laboratory, the breach bolt, because

40:21

it's from a Ruger 1022, I'm sure

40:24

Malatia is your main suspect at the present

40:26

time. If I can positively

40:29

match that breach bolt as being used at

40:31

two of these murder scenes, that

40:33

then is solid evidence that

40:35

implicates him. Now as

40:38

it turns out there was a mountain of circumstantial

40:40

evidence that implicated Malat in these murders. So I

40:42

said to the task force, I need to go

40:44

back to the laboratory, I

40:46

want to examine this breach bolt and how I did

40:48

that was in the ballistic section, we have

40:51

a firearms reference library. It's like a book library except

40:53

it's full of guns. And

40:56

in Sydney I guess

40:58

at that time there must have been, we had about 8,000 different

41:01

makes models. It's a

41:03

very important tool for us in the investigation

41:05

of firearm crime. In fact we can't

41:07

do our work without it. So

41:10

I took a 1022

41:12

rifle out of our library, disassembled it,

41:15

introduced that breach bolt into the mechanism,

41:17

reassembled it and testified it. Now the

41:19

bullets were irrelevant because

41:22

we didn't have the barrel and bullets would be marked by

41:24

the barrel that was fitted to the

41:26

library gun so that was of no interest. What

41:29

was interesting to me was how that cartridge

41:32

case would be marked in

41:34

the firing process by

41:36

the breach bolt that we found in the wall cavity

41:38

at Malat's house. So

41:41

after I testified in our water tank, collected

41:43

the cartridge cases, go to the

41:45

comparison microscope which is essentially a specialised

41:48

optical instrument which allows us to examine

41:50

two things under the same magnification simultaneously.

41:53

So we're making a direct comparison

41:55

of the microscopic surface of two

41:57

items that we can see in the same image.

41:59

if you like. So normally we'd

42:02

have our murder or our

42:04

crime scene exhibits on one stage on one

42:06

side. You see that on the left hemisphere

42:08

of your, of the view piece and

42:11

they're test fired cartridge cases on

42:13

the other side. And so you

42:15

can look at both surface contour

42:18

at the same time and draw a

42:20

direct comparison. So I've done

42:22

this hundreds of times with other guns. You put them

42:24

on there and within seconds sometimes, even though it's the

42:26

same model of gun, you'd look

42:28

at that and go, that's not the murder gun

42:30

because microscopically there were just

42:33

far too many differences. Sometimes

42:35

you put them on there and go, Oh, that

42:37

looks a little bit interesting. And you need to spend

42:39

some time using different magnification,

42:41

different light sources, different

42:44

angles of light sources and

42:46

so on. You're adjusting the focus. You're manipulating

42:48

these constantly looking at all of the marks.

42:51

And I've been doing this for now for quite

42:53

some long time with guns

42:55

that have come in. And I like in

42:58

the process and this is the analogy, how

43:00

I think about it and which might make

43:02

sense to not a person. If

43:04

you're walking down a city you've never been in and

43:07

you don't know anyone there and

43:10

you, there's just people walking towards you,

43:12

hundreds of people, thousands of people and

43:14

they all look different. You don't know them, but

43:17

you see one person from time to time, you go,

43:19

Oh, that looks like my friend Fred

43:21

or that looks like a auntie auntie barrel

43:23

or whatever it might be. But as I

43:25

get closer, you realise, I know that's

43:27

not them because I thought that their hair's a bit darker and

43:30

I can see their faces a bit different when their eyes are

43:32

a direct color, whatever it might be. But

43:34

initially it's something similar. That's

43:37

the process. It was like looking

43:39

at fired cartridge cases and bullets ever

43:42

since the start of this inquiry compared

43:44

to the murder guns, but never seeing

43:46

the same microscopic, the same pattern

43:48

of microscopic marks on

43:50

the murder gun. Then the

43:53

morning that I looked at my test

43:56

fired cartridge cases compared to the

43:58

murder cases. the

44:01

instant I put them on the microscope

44:04

and started adjusting the focus, I

44:06

literally, honestly, I still feel it now, can feel

44:08

the hairs stand up on the back of my

44:10

neck because

44:13

what I was instantly recognising

44:15

was that pattern of microscopic

44:17

marks that I've been looking for on

44:20

the murder exhibits all this time, when

44:23

now appearing on my testifiers

44:26

that I just made using the breech vault from

44:28

the wall cavity in my lats house. And

44:31

that was tremendously exciting. So, I spent

44:35

the requisite amount of time looking at

44:38

those properly and examining

44:40

them in great detail

44:42

and getting it peer checked by one of

44:44

my colleagues to say, well, have a look

44:46

at these, what do you think? Without giving

44:48

them any other information, just see what you

44:50

reckon, and then going, yep, the same guns

44:52

fired those. And so, that

44:55

then became a very important

44:57

piece of evidence to marry something

44:59

we found in his house back

45:02

to two of the murder scenes. And as I

45:04

said, with the circumstantial evidence, we found lots of

45:06

stuff that we could draw correlations to different victims,

45:08

whether it was their property, whether it was their

45:10

clothes. We all, we had a very, when we

45:12

did this search in the different

45:14

properties, we had a list

45:16

of property and clothing and photos of

45:18

clothing they were wearing, and they were

45:21

known to have at the time they

45:23

disappeared. And so, having

45:25

this list available as we're doing a search was

45:28

really useful. And indeed, that's what

45:30

happened. We found all sorts of stuff

45:32

that was very clear. It was from

45:34

various victims in his house. Again, it

45:37

wasn't just one or two things. It

45:39

was a veritable mountain. But the files

45:41

evidence, at least, provided a very unequivocal

45:43

link between something in his house and two

45:45

of the murder scenes, which was

45:48

very important in the context of the trial.

45:52

Did the jury have any trouble understanding the evidence at

45:55

all? Our role as

45:57

a forensic specialist is to... that

46:01

evidence in a clear and understandable

46:03

way. And in fact for this

46:05

particular job I'd made up a

46:07

number of charts with photographs showing

46:10

the various features that I

46:13

was able to use in

46:15

drawing the correlation between that breech bolt and

46:17

the marks that would leave on cartridge cases.

46:20

We're very fortunate the marks that were left

46:22

were very clear and concise and very

46:24

high quality. So once you'd showed a

46:26

jury to say well just in

46:29

a methodical process this is how we do this

46:31

work, this is what I'm looking

46:33

at, this is why I can say what I

46:35

say etc that was just lit out in a

46:38

methodical manner by the by the prosecutor

46:40

and put before the jury

46:42

and I don't think they had any trouble understanding

46:45

that because you're given the time and the importance of

46:47

this job is such that you know you need to

46:49

be able to explain it properly. You just go through

46:51

it piece by piece and explain

46:54

why we say what we're saying

46:56

and what allows us to say that

46:58

and just justifying our conclusions. That

47:03

was just so fascinating because we've heard

47:05

so much about Ivan Milat but the

47:07

actual logical progression from the ballistics evidence

47:10

that was used in his trial is

47:13

something I don't think we know much about at all. So

47:15

thank you so much for sharing that and

47:17

thank you very much for joining us. Thanks very much for

47:20

having me. Crime

47:29

and Sliders Forensics is a listener

47:31

original production. It's hosted by me

47:34

Catherine Fox and is produced by

47:36

Ed Gooden. Sound design and

47:38

imaging is by Lyn Kelly.