Episode Transcript
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0:02
A listener production. A
0:05
warning. This. Episode contains references
0:07
to violent crimes. The.
0:09
Number for lifeline is Thirteen,
0:12
Eleven, Fourteen. Please.
0:14
Listen with K. Welcome
0:20
to Crime Inside Forensics. For
0:24
those joining us for the first
0:26
time, my name's Catherine Fox. I'm
0:28
a former Gp crime author and
0:30
screenwriter. I'm
0:33
enthralled by forensics and have spent
0:35
thousands of hours researching for books
0:37
and screenplays, so. I thought. Why
0:40
not turn my research into a
0:42
podcast? Every week? You will be
0:45
joining me in discovering how forensic
0:47
science is helping solve high profile
0:49
crimes in Australia and around the
0:52
world. This
0:54
week How Killers accord using
0:57
Three D Crime Scene Recreation
0:59
Technology. Not
1:01
only to realize gonna produce still
1:03
images of that soon environment from
1:06
any angle view that you wish
1:08
you can fly through as a
1:10
your the on the road. Angus
1:14
Newton is one of New Zealand's
1:16
most respected ballistics experts. He's an
1:18
encyclopedia of ballistic evidence and today
1:21
is walking us through a case
1:23
that occurred just before three technology
1:25
became commonplace. Then. We'll
1:28
understand how things might have been
1:30
different if that three technology was
1:33
there to be used. So to
1:35
start were going back to two
1:37
thousand and nine to a drug
1:40
deal gone wrong and two people
1:42
looking for revenge. The.
1:49
Drug dealer ripped off the
1:51
to customers and subsequently attempts
1:54
were made by the to
1:56
customers to complete the deal
1:58
that involved. inviting the
2:01
drug dealer to their place with
2:04
some deal sweeteners just
2:06
to get there, complete
2:08
the sale. So
2:10
they invited him round and the victim
2:12
turned up to their flat
2:15
in Palmerston North. He
2:17
would have entered the room through
2:20
the front door which led directly into the lounge.
2:23
He would have shut the door behind
2:26
him and turned
2:28
and faced a modified rifle
2:31
being pointed in his direction. I
2:34
don't know what went down in between the time
2:36
he entered that room and when the shop was
2:38
fired but the good
2:40
thing about this particular case is what
2:43
occurred inside that room enabled
2:46
me to fully reconstruct events. Firearms
2:50
can be excellent storytellers. They
2:52
can give you everything that
2:54
occurred in that snapshot of time when
2:56
that bullet leaves the muzzle of
2:58
the gun and strikes
3:01
the victim or alternatively
3:03
they can actually keep their secrets very close to
3:05
their chest and thankfully for us
3:08
in this instance the
3:10
gun decided to give up all its secrets. Did
3:14
you actually attend the crime scene when you heard there
3:16
was a shooting? Yes,
3:18
yeah. So I received a call I
3:21
think towards the evening of
3:24
the day of the shooting. It
3:26
was a request to come down and attend the scene
3:29
the following day so we
3:32
took steps to organise that
3:34
trip from Auckland to Palmerston North
3:38
to arrive the following day of
3:40
the shooting. What
3:42
do you actually take in your scene, Ted? These
3:45
days it's changed. I can't recall
3:47
what we took right back in 2009
3:49
because systems have changed
3:51
so we operate across
3:54
the country but we also have
3:57
General Scene Attendance Staff. In
4:00
Oakland, when it's and crusher, it's. And
4:03
I will assist us
4:05
at scenes these days.
4:07
So. The farms examiners
4:09
will attend to saying if we
4:11
have to fly to for instance
4:13
Pounds and north the in a
4:15
general seen examiner from Wellington will
4:17
drive up. And. They'll
4:19
bring to sort of equipment
4:21
that a general seeing requires.
4:24
Let's protective gear, flood testing,
4:28
Equipment. Shoe
4:30
Print gets luminol kits
4:32
any other sort of
4:34
equipment that requires. For.
4:37
Is required for general scene and
4:39
examinations and we were just type
4:41
the the farm specific. Equipment
4:44
Sir Things that we need
4:46
to record. The.
4:49
Far, I'm evidence. And
4:51
assist with the reconstruction
4:53
sex trajectory kits for
4:56
instance, tools for removing
4:58
bullets from walls those
5:00
sorts of farm specific.
5:03
To your requirements. North.
5:06
Atlantic Treaty. A tradition
5:08
kits contains the equipment that's required
5:10
to reconstruct a trajectory. So in
5:13
order to reconstructed decree you need
5:15
to points in space for Bolland
5:17
his password. So for instance a
5:19
good example would be a poet
5:21
passing through an anti war. To
5:25
leave a whole and the first will pass
5:27
through the wall cavity and then exit out
5:29
the other side and so you have two
5:31
points and spies who the entry hole in
5:33
the into home in this case. And
5:36
so there's a we need to rican such as a teacher in
5:38
we can. Join.
5:40
Those two points and spice and sixteen
5:42
and other backwards to we we the
5:44
shop has been fired from to afford
5:46
to we're the bullet as travel towards
5:49
and their advert for his methods of
5:51
clinic than those two points in exceeding
5:53
it out the most. Commonly
5:56
used would be a
5:58
trajectory rod. Strike
6:00
Middle Road generally coated and colored
6:02
plastic and so you can insert
6:04
the roads into the injury hole,
6:06
through the wall cavity and out
6:09
through the X L A It
6:11
instantly catches the direction of the
6:13
bullet through that wall cavity. Seguin
6:15
see the direction with it's up
6:17
would stand with direction left or
6:19
right. Then you
6:21
can attach lasers to the into the
6:23
to victory road and point and forward
6:25
towards we the book. Might. Have
6:28
cable to and you might need to do
6:30
that. Just look down range and john find
6:32
other services at the bullet struck. Or.
6:36
You can. Put.
6:38
The laser on the ancient side and point
6:40
back to with with a gun would have
6:42
been located. And you
6:45
can do that for mobile trajectory
6:47
roads. for example, a maybe pinpoint
6:49
a location with a gun was
6:51
fired and with a i'm point
6:53
for signs and. That
6:55
can help you reconstruct events. When.
6:58
You arrived. What
7:00
did he signs saying? The
7:04
first. Job.
7:06
That we required to look at
7:08
was where the deceased was located
7:11
as. He had
7:13
left. The. Shooting
7:15
incident location and walked about
7:18
eighty meters down the road
7:20
and in because of the.
7:23
Loss. Of blood that he
7:25
was suffering from. He collapsed
7:27
behind a brick wall at
7:29
an address on the same
7:32
street and that's where he
7:34
was located as sell first
7:36
task was to examine the
7:38
victim's body. Is
7:41
location. And anything
7:43
else it might have been. And
7:45
his immediate vicinity that would assist with
7:47
the reconstruction. Did. Even though
7:49
that t the actual scene and in
7:52
time and put it together then what
7:54
is? He waits until post mortem. What's.
7:56
The what's the sense that for He. Peed
7:59
tissue. reconstruct what had happened in
8:01
that apartment. The
8:04
interesting aspect of the
8:07
deceased scene was
8:11
the presence of the firearm. The
8:13
firearm was located originally
8:17
right next to where the deceased was
8:19
located. It had
8:21
been uplifted and taken away by
8:24
police the previous evening. You don't want to
8:26
leave a firearm overnight in a
8:29
scene if possible. That was
8:32
checked for safety by the investigating
8:34
officers and exhibited and taken
8:37
away that night. I hadn't had a chance to see it
8:39
but I was made aware that the
8:42
firearm had been located next to the
8:44
body. That was relevant
8:48
to events that transpired
8:50
subsequent to that.
8:52
The next stage was to
8:54
look at the intervening space between where
8:57
the deceased was located and the flat
8:59
where the incident took place. That
9:02
was just to track the deceased movements and that
9:04
was easy enough to do because he was bleeding
9:06
a lot. Those bloodstains
9:08
were easily visible
9:12
on the road and pavement. It
9:14
was easy enough to track his movements in
9:17
the intervening space.
9:21
Once we'd done that then it was
9:25
time to go to the postmortem. That
9:27
was undertaken on the following day. We traveled
9:29
down to Wellington where the
9:31
postmortem was to take
9:33
place and attended that
9:36
postmortem. When you're there at
9:39
the postmortem, presumably
9:41
they x-rayed the body to see if there were any bullets
9:45
still inside.
9:47
Did you find anything at the scene before that?
9:50
Any bullet marks or bullets
9:53
themselves or cartridges? Was there anything left
9:55
at the scene? That
9:57
stage we hadn't got into the main shooting scene. So
10:00
we were kind of operating
10:03
a little bit blind more so
10:05
than we would normally. You'd normally look at the main
10:07
scene. In most
10:09
instances the body is actually deceased within the main
10:11
scene area where the shooting took place. This
10:14
was a little bit different because you walked away from
10:16
the scene for some distance and we didn't get a
10:19
chance to look at that main shooting scene before we
10:21
got to the post-mortem. So
10:23
a little bit different. We knew
10:25
after the x-ray that
10:27
there were no bullets inside
10:29
the victim. There
10:32
was an entrance and
10:34
an exit wound amongst
10:36
other things. So we
10:38
knew that when we did get into
10:40
the main shooting in the scene we'd
10:43
be looking for the bullet that
10:45
had struck and passed through the
10:47
victim. There was only one
10:49
bullet wound? There
10:52
was only one shot fired but there were actually
10:54
multiple wounds. The results from the
10:56
post-mortem showed that the bullet
10:58
had originally crossed his
11:01
lower neck close to where his
11:03
right collar bone is located.
11:07
It had then crossed from
11:10
right to left and entered
11:12
his shoulder just
11:14
above his left armpit. It
11:18
had travelled across the
11:22
tissue immediately
11:24
above his left armpit severing his
11:27
nerves and his arteries and
11:29
veins that go into his left
11:31
arm and then exited out
11:33
of the rear of his left shoulder. So
11:36
the general direction was
11:39
slightly downwards and from
11:41
his right to left. Initially
11:43
when you think about that you think, okay,
11:45
was his arm by his side or where
11:47
was his arm? He was obviously moving in
11:49
time and space. People normally just stand there.
11:52
I imagine. How
11:55
was the arm then? I'm just trying to work it
11:57
out. If it's gone through at that angle and then
11:59
damaged the nerves. and veins. So
12:01
this is jumping slightly ahead. Later
12:05
on in laboratory we got a chance to
12:07
look at the victim's clothing
12:09
including the sweatshirt that he was wearing at
12:11
the time. The
12:14
really interesting finding from that sweatshirt
12:16
was a number of holes across
12:20
the upper right sleeve and
12:23
across his chest on the right hand
12:25
side. I think there were about seven
12:27
holes. We detected
12:30
copper around the hole
12:32
that was at the
12:34
very right end of that series of holes.
12:36
So that was the first entry hole because
12:39
as the bullet passes through a
12:43
surface that deposits what we
12:45
call bullet wipe on
12:47
the surface around the entry hole and
12:50
it'll only generally be the first
12:52
hole that passes through every subsequent
12:54
hole that bullet wipe generally has
12:56
mostly disappeared. Although there
12:58
are exceptions to that. But
13:00
listen since we detected copper
13:02
around that right and most hole and
13:07
the sequence of seven holes showed us that the bullet
13:09
had passed in and out of that sweatshirt as
13:12
it traveled across from his right shoulder across his
13:15
chest. The
13:17
postmortem results show that there were
13:19
no injuries to him in
13:21
that location. So the bullet had
13:23
never actually struck him it only
13:26
passed through the sweatshirt in that
13:28
location. It then struck his neck
13:30
or his lower neck about where
13:32
its voice box is located before
13:37
entering his body
13:39
just above his left arm. So if
13:42
you actually by the time you elevate
13:45
his sweatshirt, his right arm and
13:47
you elevate it and you extend
13:49
it straight out and probably slightly up
13:52
then that explains the seven holes across
13:54
that right sleeve onto
13:56
his chest and then you actually have
13:59
to bring your head down. down for
14:01
the bullet then to crease his neck
14:03
and then travel across and strike his
14:07
interd just at others left armpit. So
14:10
that almost paints a picture of a
14:13
possible defence posture. He's
14:15
almost raised his right arm to
14:18
fend off what's coming whilst attempting
14:21
to crouch down to
14:24
evade what's coming. So
14:27
that could be one explanation for that. Were
14:29
there any people of interest at the
14:32
time? Yes
14:34
there were. So there were believed
14:36
to be two people inside
14:38
the flat apart from
14:40
the victim. One
14:43
person held and fired the gun
14:45
and there was believed to be another person there at
14:47
the time. And those were
14:49
the two people who had
14:51
been ripped off during the drug deal. Were
14:54
they in police custody or
14:56
were they on the run? Where were they
14:59
at the time of the post-mortem
15:01
and the crime scene examination?
15:04
So several hours after when
15:06
the shot was believed to have fired, they
15:09
presented themselves to the local police station
15:13
and informed the
15:15
police that there had been a shooting at the
15:19
flat where they were living. But
15:22
their story ultimately
15:25
didn't marry
15:27
up with the evidence. So
15:30
their original story that they told police
15:32
was that the
15:34
victim had turned up their
15:37
flat with the firearm and
15:39
had threatened them with the firearm. A
15:43
fight had taken place and
15:45
during that fight the
15:47
gun had been fired accidentally and the
15:53
victim had received the gunshot. He
15:56
had subsequently left the flat and
15:58
died down the road. They
16:01
called the police, they were unsure what
16:03
had happened to the victim after he left the flat
16:06
and they were there to inform
16:08
the police of this incident. So
16:11
that was their vision of events. But
16:14
they didn't call an ambulance or call police
16:16
in the meantime? No,
16:19
there was several hours in between when the shooting
16:21
took place and by the time they decided to
16:24
present to police. So
16:40
where are you up to now? You've
16:43
got the gun. You've
16:46
now gone back to the crime
16:48
scene after the post-mortem.
16:50
So what happens now with
16:52
your involvement? Yes,
16:56
after the post-mortem the following day,
16:58
so day 3 of our
17:00
involvement in the investigation, I'm
17:02
back in the main scene. So we finally
17:04
get back to the flat where the incident
17:06
occurred and
17:09
walk into the lounge where the
17:11
shot has led to have been
17:13
fired and realise that there's
17:16
a lot of work to be done.
17:19
The lounge
17:21
was relatively cluttered, quite full
17:23
of furniture and it
17:25
was clear that a lot
17:28
of activity had taken place post-shooting.
17:31
Not just in
17:33
the lounge but in the
17:36
house generally. The lounge
17:39
was covered in blood stains and
17:43
there were also blood stains located in various
17:45
other locations and there
17:48
was firearms evidence as well. Eventually
17:50
once we got into the lounge
17:52
and started examining it in detail,
17:56
we found a bullet hole in
17:58
the wall. next to
18:00
the front door. The
18:02
bullet had passed through the jib board
18:04
wall and smacked into
18:07
the brick wall behind. So that
18:09
gave us the ability to reconstruct your trajectory. So
18:11
we were able to, in this instance,
18:15
we used a piece of string line.
18:18
So we were able to connect one end of the
18:20
string to the hole in the brick, pass
18:22
it back out through the hole in the jib,
18:25
and extend it all the way to the other
18:27
end of the lounge. And that gives you a
18:29
line, a trajectory line, upon
18:31
which both the shooter
18:34
and the deceased can be placed. They have to
18:36
be on that trajectory line. The
18:40
next thing that was noticeable was a
18:44
forward tissue spatter
18:46
pattern on the wall surrounding the bullet
18:48
hole. So
18:50
that occurs when a bullet
18:53
exits someone. You
18:55
will get very,
18:57
very fine tissue spatter traveling in
19:00
the same direction as a bullet.
19:02
So we turn that forward tissue
19:04
spatter. And
19:06
that very, very fine tissue
19:08
spatter had deposited on the
19:10
wall immediately around the
19:13
entry hole where the bullet had smacked into
19:15
the jib. And
19:17
that told us that the
19:19
deceased was relatively close to that
19:21
wall when that bullet
19:24
had exited him and smacked into
19:26
the jib. So
19:28
we could not only then place
19:30
the deceased along that trajectory line, but we
19:32
could also place him relatively close to that
19:35
wall. So we were able to place
19:37
his deceased pretty close in
19:40
space. And that was in
19:42
line with the front door. So he would have been
19:44
standing pretty close to the front door when
19:46
he received the shot. Was the
19:48
front door open or closed, do you think? Would
19:51
have been closed. And
19:53
the reason I say that is there was
19:56
a tremendous amount of
19:58
blood staining on the... floor
20:00
immediately beneath the front door
20:03
and on the surface of the front door that's
20:06
facing the inside of the lounge. The
20:09
blood staining contained drips
20:11
and transfer
20:14
stains and spatter stains as
20:16
well. And the impression
20:18
was from that blood staining that someone
20:20
was standing next to that closed front
20:23
door attempting
20:25
to get out so
20:29
they were trying to manipulate the door handles
20:32
in order to get out. The
20:35
front door had two door handles, a
20:37
lock and a handle.
20:42
And if you recall from the postmortem
20:44
examination the deceased had lost
20:47
the use of his left arm because that
20:49
nerve bundle that serves that arm
20:51
had been severed. So he
20:53
actually didn't have the use of his left hand. So
20:57
he would have been trying to open that front
20:59
door with just one hand and with
21:01
two handles he would have struggled
21:03
for some time. And
21:05
that was reflected in that blood staining. It was just
21:07
a huge amount of
21:10
drips and transfers. The
21:12
impression was that someone had been trying for some
21:14
time to get out while they were bleeding. Does
21:17
that go in the suspect's
21:21
favour in the sense that if
21:23
you're looking at a murder charge they
21:25
could have shot him again if they'd intended to murder him while
21:28
he's trying to escape. I
21:31
guess so. And that's a
21:33
question of intent that we struggled to
21:36
answer forensically. Given
21:38
the mechanism
21:40
of the rifle that we're dealing with, this
21:44
firearm was a modified bolt
21:46
action rifle and it
21:48
would have taken time for that
21:51
gun to be reloaded and another shot had been
21:53
fired. The problem with
21:56
the Suggestion
21:58
that another shot might be. The been
22:00
fired was. Answered. By the
22:02
rest of the blood standing in the room.
22:06
Was clear that the
22:09
rifle had been used
22:11
as a. With.
22:15
Subsequent to the shooting. There
22:17
was cast off. Bloodstains was
22:20
in the room as those
22:22
the rifle had been swung
22:24
around. With. A net room, And
22:27
you recall that the Far I'm was actually
22:30
found with a deceased. So
22:32
the sedition is that despite
22:34
using the use of his
22:36
left arm the victim was
22:38
do i will to grad
22:40
the rifle. Off.
22:44
To. Suda. Use.
22:46
It to attempt to sell him.
22:50
Most he's bleeding on earth. And
22:52
the in producing. Cost
22:54
of Signs as he swung it around with
22:56
in the lounge and is in taken It
22:58
was him when he left the house. So
23:02
that would support the suggestion that the
23:04
victim had brought the gun with them.
23:07
But then you've got an answer. The question
23:10
of how the in has he been shot
23:12
with It. Is
23:14
in. Craved. Back of
23:16
the shooter and live with
23:18
it so. Those.
23:21
Sorts of opening questions, but. We
23:25
know that. The.
23:27
Gun. Did. Not arrive with
23:29
the victim. And it always
23:31
been at the flats and we know
23:34
that because of of evidence that we'd
23:36
subsequently located within their house. What?
23:38
Citizens wasn't. So is and
23:40
ammunition with the same. Caliber
23:42
and brand as it was used
23:44
in the. Susan. We
23:48
also found a section of
23:50
foreign burrow. That
23:52
have been cut off and was
23:54
physically fit. It's. Back.
23:57
To the gun that was used. A.
24:00
and also other
24:03
parts that had been used to
24:05
modify it. So the original stock
24:08
had been removed from the firearm
24:11
and a pistol grip had been
24:13
placed on
24:15
the firearm instead. So you converted it from a rifle
24:17
to a pistol. And
24:20
we found the other parts of that air pistol that
24:22
the pistol grip had been taken from. So
24:25
it would be clear that that rifle had
24:27
been modified by the person living
24:29
in that place. So
24:31
there was no way to
24:33
support the suggestion that the
24:36
victim had brought the gun to the flat. What's
24:38
your next step? Were you told
24:40
the story presented by the suspects or
24:43
did you go into that crime scene only
24:46
with the post-mortem information? We
24:48
had no information as to what the suspect's
24:50
story was at that stage. We were operating
24:54
independently, just
24:56
examining the crime scene as we saw it and
24:59
gradually letting the evidence lead
25:02
us towards what had happened. It
25:06
wasn't until much, much later that
25:08
we were informed about the suspect's
25:11
version of events and
25:13
then it was just
25:15
a matter of completing the
25:18
investigations and the examinations to
25:20
enable us to reconstruct events based on
25:22
the evidence rather than any sort of
25:24
particular story or version. It
25:27
sounds monumental, his effort to escape that
25:29
crime scene. Yeah, absolutely. I'm
25:33
still flabbergasted how he managed to get out the door
25:35
with only one hand. But
25:37
he did, he managed it. The
25:40
victim was a bodybuilder. Well,
25:43
not so much a bodybuilder, but he was definitely... He
25:47
obviously attended gym because
25:50
he was a very well-built individual.
25:53
The shooter on the other hand was not.
25:56
The shooter was a Drug addict.
26:00
Only on us was not
26:02
his main interest, so there
26:04
was a sunni discrepancy and
26:06
physicality and it may be
26:08
reflectance than water kids even
26:10
given the extent of the
26:13
victims injuries in the. Situation.
26:16
That he facing. And. They were two
26:18
people in the rain. Same. The
26:22
question is what was the second? Person doing
26:24
well as is going on. And
26:26
that supposedly why that second
26:28
person was charged also with
26:31
murder. That second person denied
26:33
any involvement. And the incident.
26:36
However, the was suggesting
26:38
that they were present
26:40
based on what I
26:42
understand to be lipstick
26:44
found on a. Beer.
26:47
Bottle. Of the same
26:50
type that they were seen drinking
26:52
and town prior to going to
26:54
the police station. And
26:56
also text messages from the fine. Were.
26:59
Sent to the victim asking
27:02
him to. Come around and
27:04
complete the drug now. Trial.
27:07
Security Presents. It
27:10
he evidence the cause it sounds here
27:12
he said see said kind of concept
27:15
that they're saying this happens and it's
27:17
have a severe dynamic say when somebody
27:19
is being sought. An
27:21
amazing and it's in that situation and
27:23
the time to send themselves or not
27:25
or daily task or and it goes
27:27
wrong, so how then do? Get
27:30
that he's a nice interest. To Juri. Without.
27:33
Sort. Of these great three, Davies will
27:36
reconstructions and things. I
27:38
should start off by just outlining
27:40
what the charges worse as the
27:42
shooter was charged with murder and
27:45
he acts plead guilty. He
27:48
was on the and the stain it.
27:50
If he plead guilty the other person
27:53
would not face any charges of was
27:55
it doesn't work like that and she
27:57
was also charged with murder Subsequently see
28:00
please not guilty to murder and that
28:02
trial wins the heat And that was
28:04
the first time that I was required
28:06
to give evidence in disguise. Disguise
28:09
does prissy. All the advances that
28:11
have been made recently was at
28:14
the zoo evidence and the ability
28:16
to record the crime scene with
28:19
a laser scanner and present. that's.
28:21
Digital. Evidence in court but we
28:24
still had the means we were
28:26
able to the present. Floor
28:28
diagrams, west decree reconstructions and
28:30
place and we I would
28:32
to give the jury and
28:34
idea of what happened in
28:36
terms of the farms reconstruction
28:38
and it's a matter of.
28:41
Very carefully. Out.
28:44
Mine. The evidence.
28:48
In a way that the
28:50
jury can understand, answering questions
28:52
about the evidence, considering different
28:54
I policies as a present,
28:56
he. And. Gradually
28:58
just hoping that's your explanations
29:01
are understandable to the jury
29:03
could because of certain the.
29:06
Although it's very much. A.
29:08
Scientific approach he to have to
29:10
pitch it to the jury who
29:12
ran scientists and yet to make
29:14
it. And stand who to him
29:17
And that's. Part of
29:19
their all this is translating that
29:21
science into to a jury so
29:23
that I can understand and I
29:26
fully make good decisions about it.
29:30
Today. However, to do that case
29:32
differently with everything that you could
29:34
available Now with Digital Photography reconstruct.
29:36
Since. The. To think
29:38
that would be presented very differently. I
29:41
is definitely the advances it
29:43
with the now to do
29:46
finds using the laser scanner.
29:49
Woods. Change. How
29:51
things are done by said
29:53
saying originally. So the. Time
29:56
spent in the seen. Before.
30:00
or the laser scanner was introduced, is
30:03
extended because you have to record
30:05
and measure almost every aspect within
30:07
that scene. And I recall
30:09
some of my scene notes are just
30:12
littered with measurements. So
30:16
distances between furniture items, overall
30:19
measurements of the room, heights
30:22
of various items of interest within
30:24
the room, lengths
30:26
of bloodstains etc etc. It's so much time
30:29
was spent with a tape measure recording that
30:32
scene in your notes. And
30:34
that's all superseded by the use of the 3D
30:36
laser scanner now. It can be set up in
30:38
a room, takes its
30:40
scans and that records everything in
30:42
infinite detail and you can obtain
30:44
measurements from that data for any
30:46
object in the room that's been
30:49
successfully recorded. So that saves
30:51
a tremendous amount of time. But
30:53
then you've also got the outputs that
30:55
the laser scanner can produce. So
31:00
not only can the laser scanner produce still
31:02
images of that scene environment either
31:05
from any angle or view that
31:07
you wish. So for instance floor
31:09
diagrams of every piece of furniture or item
31:11
that's in the room, we can
31:15
produce any sort of 2D
31:17
viewpoint that you like. But
31:19
the other really useful output that
31:22
the courts are finding extremely useful is digital
31:25
fly-throughs of the scene. So
31:28
using a virtual camera
31:30
you can fly through any
31:33
crime scene as though you're there
31:35
in the room. And that
31:38
really takes the court including
31:41
the jury into that
31:43
crime scene and allows them to
31:45
see that scene for themselves and
31:47
that's a tremendous advantage. When
31:50
you do test shooting, what are
31:52
you shooting into and
31:55
how do you protect the environment from that
31:57
bullet and how do you stop that bullet
31:59
from being damaged in the process. There
32:02
are various mechanisms that we can
32:05
apply to our test
32:07
shooting to recover the bullet. It depends
32:10
on the calibre of the
32:13
gun really. Any high-powered gun
32:16
requires a sturdier backstop and
32:21
steps have to be taken to
32:23
recover that bullet in an undamaged
32:26
state. So the
32:28
first setup that
32:30
we have that we can use is
32:32
a water tank. It's a
32:35
large stainless steel tank
32:37
that contains a large amount
32:40
of water and
32:42
we point the gun into one
32:44
end of the tank and
32:46
fire into the water and the
32:49
bullet will strike the water and
32:51
sink harmlessly to the bottom of
32:53
the tank and we can recover it. That's
32:55
all well and good for small
32:58
calibre guns like the two-and-two long rifle
33:02
or some small calibre handguns. That's
33:04
not a problem. Those bullets are
33:07
easily recoverable, the water protects them,
33:09
they're largely undamaged and
33:11
they're perfect for our comparisons. How
33:15
do you go with bullets that are actually damaged
33:18
in whatever they embed
33:20
in or they've hit
33:22
bone or they've been
33:25
affected by the elements outside?
33:27
How can you
33:30
work around that in trying to compare
33:32
this bullet to this gun and
33:34
a bullet that you do under control circumstances from
33:36
that gun? Yeah good
33:39
question Catherine. It's almost every instance
33:42
the bullet that we recover will
33:44
be damaged to some extent. It's
33:46
just the nature of the job. So
33:49
we are always faced with the challenge of
33:51
comparing a less than perfect example
33:55
to ones that are perfectly
33:58
obtained. It
34:00
just depends on the extent of damage. So
34:03
as long as enough
34:07
information is left on the bullet as
34:10
it travels down the barrel and picks up
34:12
that barrel detail, if
34:14
there's enough of that information retained on
34:16
the bullet, then we can work with
34:19
that. When the
34:21
damage starts to obscure or
34:23
obliterate a lot of that
34:25
detail, then we're limited
34:27
in the conclusions that we can
34:29
come to. We may
34:31
be able to provide
34:35
an opinion that the
34:37
bullet could have come from that gun or
34:39
any other of the same type of gun
34:41
with the same type of rifling because
34:44
all the microscopic detail might have been
34:46
damaged or obscured. Or
34:49
if there's some of that microscopic detail surviving
34:51
but not enough to link it to the
34:53
gun, then our interpretation is adjusted
34:56
accordingly. We just may not be able
34:58
to get to the
35:00
highest level of conclusion that we'd like. Are
35:03
homemade guns presenting issues for you now? Not
35:08
in huge numbers. We're just encountering
35:10
our first 3D printed
35:12
guns, even though
35:15
they've been available for some time and we've
35:17
sort of been expecting it. One
35:19
of the biggest issues for us
35:21
is blank firing
35:24
guns. These are guns that are used
35:27
by film studios or
35:30
sporting officials. They fire a blank
35:33
cartridge. It's a cartridge with
35:35
no bullet, just a propellant. So
35:38
it makes the noise and the
35:40
flash. In
35:43
New Zealand up until recently, you didn't
35:45
require a firearms license to go and
35:47
buy one of these guns. The
35:50
criminal fraternity were doing this, so buying up huge numbers
35:52
of these blank guns. They're
35:54
actually booting them. These guns have a
35:57
barrel of destruction, so even if you did put a...
36:00
fully loaded cartridge into
36:02
this gun and try and
36:04
fire it, the barrel obstruction
36:07
would prevent that bullet from flying out
36:09
and actually have disastrous consequences
36:11
for the shooter because that barrel
36:13
would likely explode. But
36:16
these people were easy, well-trained
36:18
to remove those barrel obstructions
36:20
and essentially turn a
36:23
blank gun into a normally firing
36:25
handgun and that
36:27
has been a real issue for us in recent
36:30
times. The proliferation of these guns
36:32
in the hands of criminals has
36:35
been noticeable and we've had our first
36:37
fatality as well. Angus,
36:39
thank you so much for joining us. There's
36:42
so much more to criminal
36:44
activity that we just keep learning more and more
36:46
about that you have to keep ahead of. Thank
36:49
you very much for joining us today. Thank
36:52
you Cathy. I really appreciate the opportunity
36:54
to come on to this
36:56
episode and give you a brief explanation
36:59
of what we do. It could certainly fill
37:01
another two or three episodes so I'll leave
37:03
that hanging. Prime
37:13
Inciders Forensics is a listener
37:15
original production. It's hosted by
37:17
me, Catherine Fox and is produced
37:19
by Ed Gordon. Sound Design
37:21
and Imaging is my link to Kelly.
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