0:02

A listener production. A

0:05

warning. This. Episode contains references

0:07

to violent crimes. The.

0:09

Number for lifeline is Thirteen,

0:12

Eleven, Fourteen. Please.

0:14

Listen with K. Welcome

0:20

to Crime Inside Forensics. For

0:24

those joining us for the first

0:26

time, my name's Catherine Fox. I'm

0:28

a former Gp crime author and

0:30

screenwriter. I'm

0:33

enthralled by forensics and have spent

0:35

thousands of hours researching for books

0:37

and screenplays, so. I thought. Why

0:40

not turn my research into a

0:42

podcast? Every week? You will be

0:45

joining me in discovering how forensic

0:47

science is helping solve high profile

0:49

crimes in Australia and around the

0:52

world. This

0:54

week How Killers accord using

0:57

Three D Crime Scene Recreation

0:59

Technology. Not

1:01

only to realize gonna produce still

1:03

images of that soon environment from

1:06

any angle view that you wish

1:08

you can fly through as a

1:10

your the on the road. Angus

1:14

Newton is one of New Zealand's

1:16

most respected ballistics experts. He's an

1:18

encyclopedia of ballistic evidence and today

1:21

is walking us through a case

1:23

that occurred just before three technology

1:25

became commonplace. Then. We'll

1:28

understand how things might have been

1:30

different if that three technology was

1:33

there to be used. So to

1:35

start were going back to two

1:37

thousand and nine to a drug

1:40

deal gone wrong and two people

1:42

looking for revenge. The.

1:49

Drug dealer ripped off the

1:51

to customers and subsequently attempts

1:54

were made by the to

1:56

customers to complete the deal

1:58

that involved. Voicing the

2:01

drug dealer to the applies

2:03

with some deal sweetness just

2:05

to get there that a

2:07

complete the sale. And

2:10

so they invited him around. In the

2:12

victim to end up. To. The of

2:14

Flats and com sonos. Who

2:18

They've ended the room. Answer

2:20

is a front door slid directly into the

2:22

lounge. He would have

2:25

shut the door behind him

2:27

and turned and faced a

2:29

modified rifle being pointed in

2:32

his direction. I

2:34

don't know what went down and between tiny

2:36

into that room and when the shot was

2:38

fired, but. The good

2:40

thing about this particular cases

2:42

what occurred and side that

2:44

room. Enabled. Me to

2:47

fully reconstruct events. Firearms can

2:49

be excellent story tells. And

2:52

can give you. Everything. That

2:54

a kids and that snaps at a

2:56

time when that bullet leaves the muzzle,

2:58

the gun and. Strikes

3:01

the victim. Or.

3:03

Alternately that can actually keep the secrets

3:05

very close the chest and thankfully for

3:07

for us in this instance the gun

3:10

the sun to give up all the

3:12

secrets. Did you

3:14

actually kinda convincing? Win easily. There was

3:16

a season. Yes

3:18

yeah so I received the call

3:21

a think in the towards the

3:23

evening. Of the day

3:25

the shooting I was a request

3:27

to come down the teen the

3:29

scenes the following day so we.

3:32

Took. Steps to organize that trip

3:34

from Oakland, pounds and north

3:37

to arrive and the following

3:39

day of the shooting. Where.

3:42

Do you see protein? You seem to

3:44

have these days of science.

3:46

Can't recall what we took

3:48

wrote that countries as nine

3:51

because systems of china sites

3:53

we have right across the

3:55

country but we also has

3:57

an general seen attendance Das.

4:00

In Oakland, when it's and crusher, it's. And

4:03

I will assist us

4:05

at scenes these days.

4:07

So. The farms examiners

4:09

will attend the saying If we

4:11

have to fly to for instance

4:13

Pounds and north the in a

4:15

general seen examiner from Wellington will

4:17

drive up. And. They'll

4:19

bring to sort of equipment

4:21

that a general seeing requires.

4:24

Let's protective gear, flood testing,

4:28

Equipment. Shoe

4:30

Print gets luminol kits

4:32

any other sort of

4:34

equipment that requires. For.

4:37

Is required for general scene and

4:39

examinations and we we just ate

4:41

the the farm specific. Equipment

4:44

are things that we need

4:46

to record. The.

4:49

Far, I'm evidence. And

4:51

assist with the reconstruction

4:53

sex trajectory kits for

4:56

instance, tools for removing

4:58

bullets from walls those

5:00

sorts of farm specific.

5:03

To your requirements. North.

5:06

Atlantic Treaty. A tradition

5:08

kits contains the equipment that's required

5:10

to reconstruct a trajectory. So in

5:13

order to reconstructed decree you need

5:15

to points in space for Bolland

5:17

his password. So for instance a

5:19

good example would be a poet

5:21

passing through an anti war. To

5:25

leave a whole and the first will pass

5:27

through the wall cavity and then exit out

5:29

the other side and so you have two

5:31

points and spies who the entry hole in

5:33

the into home in this case. And

5:36

so there's a we need to rican such as a teacher in

5:38

we can. Join.

5:40

Those two points and spice and sixteen

5:42

and other backwards to we we the

5:44

shop has been fired from to afford

5:46

to we're the bullet as travel towards

5:49

and their advert for his methods of

5:51

clinic than those two points in exceeding

5:53

it out the most. Commonly

5:56

used would be a

5:58

trajectory rod. Strike

6:00

Middle Road generally coated and colored

6:02

plastic and so you can insert

6:04

the roads into the injury hole,

6:07

through the wall cavity and out

6:09

through the X L A Met

6:11

instantly catches the direction of the

6:13

bullet through that wall cavity. Seguin

6:15

see the direction with it's up

6:17

would spam instruction left or right.

6:21

Then you can attach lasers to the

6:23

into the to victory road and point

6:25

and forward towards we the book. Might.

6:27

Have cable to and you might need to

6:30

do that. Just look down range and john

6:32

find other services at the bullet struck. Or.

6:36

You can. Put.

6:38

The laser on the ancient side and point

6:40

back to with with a gun would have

6:42

been located. And you

6:45

can do that for mobile trajectory

6:47

roads for example a maybe pinpoints

6:49

a location with a gun was

6:51

fired and with a i'm point

6:53

for signs and. That

6:55

can help you reconstruct events. When.

6:58

You arrived. What

7:00

did he signs saying? The

7:04

first. Job.

7:06

That we required to look at

7:08

was where the deceased was located

7:11

as. He had

7:13

left. The. Shooting

7:15

incident location and walked about

7:18

eighty meters down the road

7:20

and in because of the.

7:23

Loss. Of blood that he

7:25

was suffering from. He collapsed

7:27

behind a brick wall at

7:29

an address on the same

7:32

street and that's where he

7:34

was located as Cel. First

7:36

task was to examine the

7:38

victim's body. Is

7:41

location. And anything

7:43

else it might have been. And

7:45

his immediate vicinity that would assist with

7:47

the reconstruction. Did. Even though

7:49

that t the actual scene and in

7:52

time and put it together then what

7:54

is? He waits until post mortem. What's.

7:56

The what's the sense that for He. Peed

7:59

tissue. reconstruct what had happened in

8:01

that apartment. The

8:04

interesting aspect of the

8:07

deceased scene was

8:11

the presence of the firearm. The

8:13

firearm was located originally

8:17

right next to where the deceased was

8:19

located. It had

8:21

been uplifted and taken away by

8:24

police the previous evening. You don't want to

8:26

leave a firearm overnight in a

8:29

scene if possible. That was

8:32

checked for safety by the investigating

8:34

officers and exhibited and taken

8:37

away that night. I hadn't had a chance to see it

8:39

but I was made aware that the

8:42

firearm had been located next to the

8:44

body. That was relevant

8:48

to events that transpired

8:50

subsequent to that.

8:52

The next stage was to

8:54

look at the intervening space between where

8:57

the deceased was located and the flat

8:59

where the incident took place. That

9:02

was just to track the deceased movements and that

9:04

was easy enough to do because he was bleeding

9:06

a lot. Those bloodstains

9:08

were easily visible

9:12

on the road and pavement. It

9:14

was easy enough to track his movements in

9:17

the intervening space.

9:21

Once we'd done that then it was

9:25

time to go to the postmortem. That

9:27

was undertaken on the following day. We traveled

9:29

down to Wellington where the

9:31

postmortem was to take

9:33

place and attended that

9:36

postmortem. When you're there at

9:39

the postmortem, presumably

9:41

they x-rayed the body to see if there were any bullets

9:45

still inside.

9:47

Did you find anything at the scene before that?

9:50

Any bullet marks or bullets

9:53

themselves or cartridges? Was there anything left

9:55

at the scene? That

9:57

stage we hadn't got into the main shooting scene. So

10:00

we were kind of operating

10:03

a little bit blind more so

10:05

than we would normally. You'd normally look at the main

10:07

scene. In most

10:09

instances the body is actually deceased within the main

10:11

scene area where the shooting took place. This

10:14

was a little bit different because you walked away from

10:16

the scene for some distance and we didn't get a

10:19

chance to look at that main shooting scene before we

10:21

got to the post-mortem. So

10:23

a little bit different. We knew

10:25

after the x-ray that

10:27

there were no bullets inside

10:29

the victim. There

10:32

was an entrance and

10:34

an exit wound amongst

10:36

other things. So we

10:38

knew that when we did get into

10:40

the main shooting in the scene we'd

10:43

be looking for the bullet that

10:45

had struck and passed through the

10:47

victim. There was only one

10:49

bullet wound? There

10:52

was only one shot fired but there were actually

10:54

multiple wounds. The results from the

10:56

post-mortem showed that the bullet

10:58

had originally crossed his

11:01

lower neck close to where his

11:03

right collar bone is located.

11:07

It had then crossed from

11:10

right to left and entered

11:12

his shoulder just

11:14

above his left armpit. It

11:18

had travelled across the

11:22

tissue immediately

11:24

above his left armpit severing his

11:27

nerves and his arteries and

11:29

veins that go into his left

11:31

arm and then exited out

11:33

of the rear of his left shoulder. So

11:36

the general direction was

11:39

slightly downwards and from

11:41

his right to left. Initially

11:43

when you think about that you think, okay,

11:45

was his arm by his side or where

11:47

was his arm? He was obviously moving in

11:49

time and space. People normally just stand there.

11:52

I imagine. How

11:55

was the arm then? I'm just trying to work it

11:57

out. If it's gone through at that angle and then

11:59

damaged the nerves. and veins. So

12:01

this is jumping slightly ahead. Later

12:05

on in laboratory we got a chance to

12:07

look at the victim's clothing

12:09

including the sweatshirt that he was wearing at

12:11

the time. The

12:14

really interesting finding from that sweatshirt

12:16

was a number of holes across

12:20

the upper right sleeve and

12:23

across his chest on the right hand

12:25

side. I think there were about seven

12:27

holes. We detected

12:30

copper around the hole

12:32

that was at the

12:34

very right end of that series of holes.

12:36

So that was the first entry hole because

12:39

as the bullet passes through a

12:43

surface that deposits what we

12:45

call bullet wipe on

12:47

the surface around the entry hole and

12:50

it'll only generally be the first

12:52

hole that passes through every subsequent

12:54

hole that bullet wipe generally has

12:56

mostly disappeared. Although there

12:58

are exceptions to that. But

13:00

listen since we detected copper

13:02

around that right and most hole and

13:07

the sequence of seven holes showed us that the bullet

13:09

had passed in and out of that sweatshirt as

13:12

it traveled across from his right shoulder across his

13:15

chest. The

13:17

postmortem results show that there were

13:19

no injuries to him in

13:21

that location. So the bullet had

13:23

never actually struck him it only

13:26

passed through the sweatshirt in that

13:28

location. It then struck his neck

13:30

or his lower neck about where

13:32

its voice box is located before

13:37

entering his body

13:39

just above his left arm. So if

13:42

you actually by the time you elevate

13:45

his sweatshirt, his right arm and

13:47

you elevate it and you extend

13:49

it straight out and probably slightly up

13:52

then that explains the seven holes across

13:54

that right sleeve onto

13:56

his chest and then you actually have

13:59

to bring your head down. down for

14:01

the bullet then to crease his neck

14:03

and then travel across and strike his

14:07

interd just at others left armpit. So

14:10

that almost paints a picture of a

14:13

possible defence posture. He's

14:15

almost raised his right arm to

14:18

fend off what's coming whilst attempting

14:21

to crouch down to

14:24

evade what's coming. So

14:27

that could be one explanation for that. Were

14:29

there any people of interest at the

14:32

time? Yes

14:34

there were. So there were believed

14:36

to be two people inside

14:38

the flat apart from

14:40

the victim. One

14:43

person held and fired the gun

14:45

and there was believed to be another person there at

14:47

the time. And those were

14:49

the two people who had

14:51

been ripped off during the drug deal. Were

14:54

they in police custody or

14:56

were they on the run? Where were they

14:59

at the time of the post-mortem

15:01

and the crime scene examination?

15:04

So several hours after when

15:06

the shot was believed to have fired, they

15:09

presented themselves to the local police station

15:13

and informed the

15:15

police that there had been a shooting at the

15:19

flat where they were living. But

15:22

their story ultimately

15:25

didn't marry

15:27

up with the evidence. So

15:30

their original story that they told police

15:32

was that the

15:34

victim had turned up their

15:37

flat with the firearm and

15:39

had threatened them with the firearm. A

15:43

fight had taken place and

15:45

during that fight the

15:47

gun had been fired accidentally and the

15:53

victim had received the gunshot. He

15:56

had subsequently left the flat and

15:58

died down the road. They

16:01

called the police, they were unsure what

16:03

had happened to the victim after he left the flat

16:06

and they were there to inform

16:08

the police of this incident. So

16:11

that was their vision of events. But

16:14

they didn't call an ambulance or call police

16:16

in the meantime? No,

16:19

there was several hours in between when the shooting

16:21

took place and by the time they decided to

16:24

present to police. So

16:40

where are you up to now? You've

16:43

got the gun. You've

16:46

now gone back to the crime

16:48

scene after the post-mortem.

16:50

So what happens now with

16:52

your involvement? Yes,

16:56

after the post-mortem the following day,

16:58

so day 3 of our

17:00

involvement in the investigation, I'm

17:02

back in the main scene. So we finally

17:04

get back to the flat where the incident

17:06

occurred and

17:09

walk into the lounge where the

17:11

shot has led to have been

17:13

fired and realise that there's

17:16

a lot of work to be done.

17:19

The lounge

17:21

was relatively cluttered, quite full

17:23

of furniture and it

17:25

was clear that a lot

17:28

of activity had taken place post-shooting.

17:31

Not just in

17:33

the lounge but in the

17:36

house generally. The lounge

17:39

was covered in blood stains and

17:43

there were also blood stains located in various

17:45

other locations and there

17:48

was firearms evidence as well. Eventually

17:50

once we got into the lounge

17:52

and started examining it in detail,

17:56

we found a bullet hole in

17:58

the wall. next to

18:00

the front door. The

18:02

bullet had passed through the jib board

18:04

wall and smacked into

18:07

the brick wall behind. So that

18:09

gave us the ability to reconstruct your trajectory. So

18:11

we were able to, in this instance,

18:15

we used a piece of string line.

18:18

So we were able to connect one end of the

18:20

string to the hole in the brick, pass

18:22

it back out through the hole in the jib,

18:25

and extend it all the way to the other

18:27

end of the lounge. And that gives you a

18:29

line, a trajectory line, upon

18:31

which both the shooter

18:34

and the deceased can be placed. They have to

18:36

be on that trajectory line. The

18:40

next thing that was noticeable was a

18:44

forward tissue spatter

18:46

pattern on the wall surrounding the bullet

18:48

hole. So

18:50

that occurs when a bullet

18:53

exits someone. You

18:55

will get very,

18:57

very fine tissue spatter traveling in

19:00

the same direction as a bullet.

19:02

So we turn that forward tissue

19:04

spatter. And

19:06

that very, very fine tissue

19:08

spatter had deposited on the

19:10

wall immediately around the

19:13

entry hole where the bullet had smacked into

19:15

the jib. And

19:17

that told us that the

19:19

deceased was relatively close to that

19:21

wall when that bullet

19:24

had exited him and smacked into

19:26

the jib. So

19:28

we could not only then place

19:30

the deceased along that trajectory line, but we

19:32

could also place him relatively close to that

19:35

wall. So we were able to place

19:37

his deceased pretty close in

19:40

space. And that was in

19:42

line with the front door. So he would have been

19:44

standing pretty close to the front door when

19:46

he received the shot. Was the

19:48

front door open or closed, do you think? Would

19:51

have been closed. And

19:53

the reason I say that is there was

19:56

a tremendous amount of

19:58

blood staining on the... floor

20:00

immediately beneath the front door

20:03

and on the surface of the front door that's

20:06

facing the inside of the lounge. The

20:09

blood staining contained drips

20:11

and transfer

20:14

stains and spatter stains as

20:16

well. And the impression

20:18

was from that blood staining that someone

20:20

was standing next to that closed front

20:23

door attempting

20:25

to get out so

20:29

they were trying to manipulate the door handles

20:32

in order to get out. The

20:35

front door had two door handles, a

20:37

lock and a handle.

20:42

And if you recall from the postmortem

20:44

examination the deceased had lost

20:47

the use of his left arm because that

20:49

nerve bundle that serves that arm

20:51

had been severed. So he

20:53

actually didn't have the use of his left hand. So

20:57

he would have been trying to open that front

20:59

door with just one hand and with

21:01

two handles he would have struggled

21:03

for some time. And

21:05

that was reflected in that blood staining. It was just

21:07

a huge amount of

21:10

drips and transfers. The

21:12

impression was that someone had been trying for some

21:14

time to get out while they were bleeding. Does

21:17

that go in the suspect's

21:21

favour in the sense that if

21:23

you're looking at a murder charge they

21:25

could have shot him again if they'd intended to murder him while

21:28

he's trying to escape. I

21:31

guess so. And that's a

21:33

question of intent that we struggled to

21:36

answer forensically. Given

21:38

the mechanism

21:40

of the rifle that we're dealing with, this

21:44

firearm was a modified bolt

21:46

action rifle and it

21:48

would have taken time for that

21:51

gun to be reloaded and another shot had been

21:53

fired. The problem with

21:56

the suggestion

21:58

that another shot might be have been fired

22:00

was answered by the rest

22:02

of the blood staining in the room.

22:04

It was

22:07

clear that the rifle had

22:11

been used as a weapon

22:15

subsequent to the shooting. There

22:17

was cast off blood stains

22:20

within the room as

22:22

though the rifle had been swung around

22:25

within that room and

22:28

you'll recall that the firearm was actually found

22:30

with a deceased. So

22:32

the suggestion is that despite

22:34

using the use of his

22:36

left arm the

22:39

victim was still able to grab the rifle

22:43

off the shooter,

22:46

use it to attempt to assault him

22:50

whilst he's bleeding on it and

22:52

then producing cast

22:54

off stains as he swung it around within

22:56

the lounge and he's then taken

22:58

it with him when he's left the house. So

23:03

that would support the suggestion that the victim had

23:05

brought the gun with him but

23:08

then you've got to answer the question of

23:10

how then has he been shot

23:12

with it. He's

23:14

then grabbed it back off

23:16

the shooter and left with it.

23:19

So all these

23:21

sorts of opening questions but we

23:25

know that the

23:27

gun did not arrive with

23:29

the victim. It had always been at

23:32

the flash and we know

23:34

that because of other evidence that we subsequently

23:36

located within the house. What sort of

23:38

evidence was that? So we found ammunition with

23:41

the same calibre and

23:43

brand as it was used in

23:45

the shooting. We

23:48

also found a section of

23:50

firearm barrel that had

23:52

been cut off and

23:54

was physically fitted back

23:57

to the gun that was used. and

24:00

also other parts

24:03

that had been used to modify

24:06

it. So the original stock had

24:08

been removed from the firearm and

24:11

a pistol grip had been placed

24:15

on the firearm instead. So you converted it from a

24:17

rifle to a pistol. And

24:20

we found the other parts of that air pistol that

24:22

the pistol grip had been taken from. So

24:25

it would be clear that that rifle had

24:27

been modified by the person living

24:29

in that place. So

24:31

there was no way to

24:33

support the suggestion that the

24:36

victim had brought the gun to the flat. What's

24:38

your next step? Were you told

24:40

the story presented by the suspects or

24:43

did you go into that crime scene only

24:46

with the post-mortem information? We

24:48

had no information as to what the suspect's

24:50

story was at that stage. We were operating

24:54

independently, just

24:56

examining the crime scene as we saw it and

24:59

gradually letting the evidence lead

25:02

us towards what had happened. It

25:06

wasn't until much, much later that

25:08

we were informed about the suspect's

25:11

version of events and

25:13

then it was just

25:15

a matter of completing the

25:18

investigations and the examinations to

25:20

enable us to reconstruct events based on

25:22

the evidence rather than any sort of

25:24

particular story or version. It

25:27

sounds monumental, his effort to escape that

25:29

crime scene. Yeah, absolutely. I'm

25:33

still flabbergasted how he managed to get out the door

25:35

with only one hand. But

25:37

he did, he managed it. The

25:40

victim was a bodybuilder. Well,

25:43

not so much a bodybuilder, but he was definitely... He

25:47

obviously attended gym because

25:50

he was a very well-built individual.

25:53

The shooter on the other hand was not.

25:56

The shooter was a drug addict.

26:00

body fitness was not his

26:02

main interest. So there was

26:04

a certain discrepancy in physicality

26:07

and that may be reflective in

26:09

what occurred even given

26:11

the extent of the victims injuries

26:14

in the situation that he

26:16

was facing. And there were two people

26:18

in the room so the question

26:22

is what was the second person doing

26:24

while this was going on?

26:26

That's possibly why that second person was

26:28

charged also with murder. That

26:31

second person denied any involvement

26:34

in the incident. However

26:37

there was a suggestion that they

26:39

were present based on what

26:42

I understand to be lipstick

26:44

found on a beer

26:48

bottle of the same

26:50

type that they were seen drinking

26:52

in town prior to going

26:54

to the police station and

26:56

also text messages from the phone were

26:59

sent to the victim asking

27:02

him to come around and complete

27:04

the drug deal. And at trial

27:07

how did you present

27:09

the evidence because it sounds

27:12

you know he said she said kind

27:15

of concept that they're saying this

27:17

happened and it's obviously very dynamic scene when

27:19

somebody is being shot and

27:21

they're moving and it's in that situation and they

27:23

try to defend themselves or not or they attack

27:26

her and it goes wrong. So

27:28

how then do you get

27:30

that information across to a jury without

27:33

sort of these great 3D visual reconstructions

27:36

and things? I

27:38

should start off by just outlining what

27:40

the charges were so that the

27:42

shooter was charged with murder and

27:45

he actually plead guilty. He

27:48

was under the understanding that if he plead guilty the

27:51

other person would not face any charges. Unfortunately

27:54

it doesn't work like that And

27:56

she was also charged with murder subsequently.

28:00

Not guilty to murder and that

28:02

trial wins the heat. And that

28:04

was the first time that I

28:06

was required to give evidence in

28:08

disguise. Disguise does prissy.

28:10

All the advances that have been

28:12

made recently was at the zoo

28:15

evidence and the ability to record

28:17

the crime scene with a laser

28:19

scanner and present. that's. Digital.

28:22

Evidence in court but we still

28:24

had the means we were able

28:26

to the present. Floor

28:28

diagrams with to victory reconstructions and

28:31

place and we I would to

28:33

give the jury and idea of

28:35

what happened in terms of the

28:38

farms reconstruction and it's a matter

28:40

of. Very carefully.

28:43

Out. Mine.

28:45

The evidence. In

28:48

a way that the jury

28:50

can understand, answering questions about

28:52

the evidence, considering different I

28:54

policies as a present, he.

28:58

And. Gradually just hoping that's

29:00

your explanations are understandable to

29:02

the jury could because of

29:04

certain the. Although it's

29:07

very much. A. Scientific approach

29:09

he to have to pitch it

29:11

to the jury who ran scientists

29:13

and yet to make it. And

29:16

stand who to him And that's. Part

29:18

of their all this is translating

29:21

that science into to a jury

29:23

said that I can understand and

29:25

I fully make good decisions about

29:28

it. Today.

29:30

However, to do that case differently

29:32

with everything that you could available

29:34

Now with Digital Photography reconstruct. Since.

29:38

Do think that would be presented very differently. I

29:41

is definitely the advances it

29:43

with the now to do

29:46

finds using the laser scanner.

29:49

Woods. Change. How

29:51

things are done by said

29:53

saying originally. So the. Time

29:56

spent in the seen. Before.

30:00

or the laser scanner was introduced, is

30:03

extended because you have to record

30:05

and measure almost every aspect within

30:07

that scene. And I recall

30:09

some of my scene notes are just

30:12

littered with measurements. So

30:16

distances between furniture items, overall

30:19

measurements of the room, heights

30:22

of various items of interest within

30:24

the room, lengths

30:26

of bloodstains etc etc. It's so much time

30:29

was spent with a tape measure recording that

30:32

scene in your notes. And

30:34

that's all superseded by the use of the 3D

30:36

laser scanner now. It can be set up in

30:38

a room, takes its

30:40

scans and that records everything in

30:42

infinite detail and you can obtain

30:44

measurements from that data for any

30:46

object in the room that's been

30:49

successfully recorded. So that saves

30:51

a tremendous amount of time. But

30:53

then you've also got the outputs that

30:55

the laser scanner can produce. So

31:00

not only can the laser scanner produce still

31:02

images of that scene environment either

31:05

from any angle or view that

31:07

you wish. So for instance floor

31:09

diagrams of every piece of furniture or item

31:11

that's in the room, we can

31:15

produce any sort of 2D

31:17

viewpoint that you like. But

31:19

the other really useful output that

31:22

the courts are finding extremely useful is digital

31:25

fly-throughs of the scene. So

31:28

using a virtual camera

31:30

you can fly through any

31:33

crime scene as though you're there

31:35

in the room. And that

31:38

really takes the court including

31:41

the jury into that

31:43

crime scene and allows them to

31:45

see that scene for themselves and

31:47

that's a tremendous advantage. When

31:50

you do test shooting, what are

31:52

you shooting into and

31:55

how do you protect the environment from that

31:57

bullet and how do you stop that bullet

31:59

from being damaged in the process. There

32:02

are various mechanisms that we can

32:05

apply to our test

32:07

shooting to recover the bullet. It depends

32:10

on the calibre of the

32:13

gun really. Any high-powered gun

32:16

requires a sturdier backstop and

32:21

steps have to be taken to

32:23

recover that bullet in an undamaged

32:26

state. So the

32:28

first setup that

32:30

we have that we can use is

32:32

a water tank. It's a

32:35

large stainless steel tank

32:37

that contains a large amount

32:40

of water and

32:42

we point the gun into one

32:44

end of the tank and

32:46

fire into the water and the

32:49

bullet will strike the water and

32:51

sink harmlessly to the bottom of

32:53

the tank and we can recover it. That's

32:55

all well and good for small

32:58

calibre guns like the two-and-two long rifle

33:02

or some small calibre handguns. That's

33:04

not a problem. Those bullets are

33:07

easily recoverable, the water protects them,

33:09

they're largely undamaged and

33:11

they're perfect for our comparisons. How

33:15

do you go with bullets that are actually damaged

33:18

in whatever they embed

33:20

in or they've hit

33:22

bone or they've been

33:25

affected by the elements outside?

33:27

How can you

33:30

work around that in trying to compare

33:32

this bullet to this gun and

33:34

a bullet that you do under control circumstances from

33:36

that gun? Yeah good

33:39

question Catherine. It's almost every instance

33:42

the bullet that we recover will

33:44

be damaged to some extent. It's

33:46

just the nature of the job. So

33:49

we are always faced with the challenge of

33:51

comparing a less than perfect example

33:55

to ones that are perfectly

33:58

obtained. It

34:00

just depends on the extent of damage. So

34:03

as long as enough

34:07

information is left on the bullet as

34:10

it travels down the barrel and picks up

34:12

that barrel detail, if

34:14

there's enough of that information retained on

34:16

the bullet, then we can work with

34:19

that. When the

34:21

damage starts to obscure or

34:23

obliterate a lot of that

34:25

detail, then we're limited

34:27

in the conclusions that we can

34:29

come to. We may

34:31

be able to provide

34:35

an opinion that the

34:37

bullet could have come from that gun or

34:39

any other of the same type of gun

34:41

with the same type of rifling because

34:44

all the microscopic detail might have been

34:46

damaged or obscured. Or

34:49

if there's some of that microscopic detail surviving

34:51

but not enough to link it to the

34:53

gun, then our interpretation is adjusted

34:56

accordingly. We just may not be able

34:58

to get to the

35:00

highest level of conclusion that we'd like. Are

35:03

homemade guns presenting issues for you now? Not

35:08

in huge numbers. We're just encountering

35:10

our first 3D printed

35:12

guns, even though

35:15

they've been available for some time and we've

35:17

sort of been expecting it. One

35:19

of the biggest issues for us

35:21

is blank firing

35:24

guns. These are guns that are used

35:27

by film studios or

35:30

sporting officials. They fire a blank

35:33

cartridge. It's a cartridge with

35:35

no bullet, just a propellant. So

35:38

it makes the noise and the

35:40

flash. In

35:43

New Zealand up until recently, you didn't

35:45

require a firearms license to go and

35:47

buy one of these guns. The

35:50

criminal fraternity were doing this, so buying up huge numbers

35:52

of these blank guns. They're

35:54

actually booting them. These guns have a

35:57

barrel of destruction, so even if you did put a...

36:00

fully loaded cartridge into

36:02

this gun and try and

36:04

fire it, the barrel obstruction

36:07

would prevent that bullet from flying out

36:09

and actually have disastrous consequences

36:11

for the shooter because that barrel

36:13

would likely explode. But

36:16

these people were easy, well-trained

36:18

to remove those barrel obstructions

36:20

and essentially turn a

36:23

blank gun into a normally firing

36:25

handgun and that

36:27

has been a real issue for us in recent

36:30

times. The proliferation of these guns

36:32

in the hands of criminals has

36:35

been noticeable and we've had our first

36:37

fatality as well. Angus,

36:39

thank you so much for joining us. There's

36:42

so much more to criminal

36:44

activity that we just keep learning more and more

36:46

about that you have to keep ahead of. Thank

36:49

you very much for joining us today. Thank

36:52

you Cathy. I really appreciate the opportunity

36:54

to come on to this

36:56

episode and give you a brief explanation

36:59

of what we do. It could certainly fill

37:01

another two or three episodes so I'll leave

37:03

that hanging. Prime

37:13

Inciders Forensics is a listener

37:15

original production. It's hosted by

37:17

me, Catherine Fox and is produced

37:19

by Ed Gordon. Sound Design

37:21

and Imaging is my link to Kelly.