0:00

For. Exclusive podcast for more,

0:02

sign up a pager on.com/partners

0:04

in Crime Media. I'm

0:07

Rebecca Lavoy and this is crime

0:09

writers. I'm. Primary

0:23

Design. Is the original True Crime Review

0:25

podcast that digs in a true crime

0:27

pop culture Other podcasts and in this

0:29

episode a slew who identify as John

0:31

Doe's gets a call from a man

0:34

presumed dead It for years is he

0:36

the baby who disappeared in the nineteen

0:38

seventies and what is his connection to

0:40

a death row inmate and his own

0:42

nephew who vanished decades later? Review the

0:44

podcast Hello John Doe. Join me to

0:47

get that done and more Is True

0:49

Crime Author, Tv, Journalist and host of

0:51

these are their Stories by Guess My

0:53

Husband and Love of My Life Kevin

0:55

Flynn hi Kevin Reporting. For duty.

0:57

Hello gun! Kevin hello Rebecca

1:00

also with. That

1:03

on of I was eight a you said hi Kevin is that if

1:05

hello Kevin I went to get this. Get it right on the script

1:07

cause you wrote that. I. Made was

1:09

hello John Doe. Oh, also where

1:11

that is, private investigator certify pet

1:13

detective, resident cat lady and author

1:16

of the Paper Green series of

1:18

cozy mysteries Lara Bricker hello Large

1:20

Brecher hello Rebecca my Long Island

1:23

big sister, and finally I resident

1:25

doubting Thomas, the author of The

1:27

City trilogy of novels, host of

1:29

strange arrivals and are Patriotic deep

1:32

Die Book Club podcast Oh Toby

1:34

Ball, hi Toby hello. Rebecca

1:37

the fifth among. It's

1:39

okay. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. Thursday's program

1:41

Jews what's coming up A Monday show.

1:44

Monday. Wouldn't be talking about new

1:46

podcast from Texas Monthly. it's called

1:48

Shane. And Sally oh so get in and

1:50

a question for you. Yeah, you took the dog

1:52

to the vet? Yeah, today I did. How are

1:54

they doing? Our dogs do a great

1:57

yeah Why? he's going somewhere. Know I just wonder

1:59

how they're doing. Nothing a clone. well you

2:01

know soon as he would older get

2:03

their little heart murmur but it hasn't

2:05

gotten worse. he still good would have

2:07

to point out. sad when I was

2:09

making the appointment for steward set up

2:11

there were having trouble does that because

2:14

you're like Wow Records show that we

2:16

euthanize is as nice as. and

2:19

said i'm glad that was it on

2:21

did start yet when we wins he

2:23

like okay would to care that for

2:25

yeah yeah. I

2:28

did a little sore hand activity that

2:30

he posted as is that I took

2:32

Briscoe yesterday and he sixty or today

2:34

and I did Briscoe yesterday to very

2:36

same things happened. One is at Bristol

2:38

has gained. Ten percent of his

2:41

own body weight over the winter he

2:43

gained seven pounds. So you know is

2:45

sixty six pounds instead of fifty nine

2:47

pounds is a squishy faced. The last

2:49

Etti businesses that my that was like

2:52

oh separate for dogs here as cities

2:54

like guy he's a six or nine

2:56

any of the city san. Cisco

3:00

yeah, sharper unit as a he needs and

3:02

I I'm blaming it on the accidental purchase

3:04

of the large side note bones when he

3:06

usually is this supposed to has not been

3:08

yes and a second. Thing that happened was when

3:11

I sat now. You. Know the annual

3:13

appointment is fucking expensive as any. Did all

3:15

those sauce or whatever sizzler like three hundred

3:17

bucks or whatever like. We're glad we're seem

3:19

to buy their heart worm stars like it's

3:22

expensive Express the anal glands yeah so god

3:24

is still so I was second hour and

3:26

era like a little be like one hundred

3:28

and twenty bucks and i was like wow

3:30

that's really cheap and illegal you to hundred

3:33

and sixty five dollar credit and i was

3:35

like. Ideal for what? And

3:37

he said, well, we charge you

3:39

for stewart euthanasia specifically for us

3:42

as you still alive. Repayment

3:48

plan. So there was Super Did

3:50

has a real bad late arthritis

3:52

attacks A few months ago we

3:54

saw it that he wasn't doing

3:56

great. So insistent boy minutes and

3:58

down, but alive. Bring a

4:01

man and I think that we were thinking met with

4:03

like four days after we have x we call them

4:05

we were thinking that might be a like we're. We're

4:07

thing I've never said he. Was in bad shape,

4:09

he couldn't stand up and he couldn't sit

4:11

down like it was best. Hard yes and

4:13

so I think maybe they had like. Put.

4:16

On the chart that he might have to be put down.

4:19

I don't know. offices. Yes thing. So

4:22

what happened was that there was

4:24

somebody else and got put in

4:26

the wrong digital file. So somewhere

4:28

there's a dead dog walking around.

4:30

Is or isn't that Dogs are there. Was never charged. Dog

4:32

walk out the summer wells Who the

4:34

dog named Stuart probably be like. We

4:36

haven't seen Sword Alonso like this issue

4:38

as you put him down as much

4:41

as assists. Yeah so yes I have some and

4:43

Kevin was there was zero. There were like. A

4:45

zombie isn't ghosts. Anyway,

4:48

how did I realize they're fine?

4:50

Thank you Kevin for making as

4:52

that appointments. As I said, rumors

4:54

of his demise were greatly exaggerated.

4:56

Big makes a plane is an accent I did

4:58

I did thank you for said that are A

5:00

so we owe it to me up on Monday

5:02

shall we know our dogs allies? As I mean

5:04

we can now now that we've delayed it long

5:06

enough to talk about the Pagans. You are

5:09

right Miss Gravy Train ssssss

5:11

a still feel it's very

5:14

excited about himself. Wagon T.

5:16

Can't wait I write as go ahead

5:18

and drop that first flip right now

5:21

leading us. Anywhere knows me,

5:23

knows I'm a long way from perfect.

5:25

And they man also say that us to do with

5:28

this case go. For. Desire to

5:30

do with the temporal. I. Still don't know

5:32

how. To let season. Of

5:34

that at Milan and worm and why did for

5:37

someone in New Zealand. Among

5:39

the missing persons cases online sluice tied

5:41

Matthews followed was as two boys from

5:44

the same family who these twenty five

5:46

years apart. He was shocked to receive

5:48

a call from a man who thought

5:50

he might be still up. Stephen Brandenburg

5:53

the baby who went missing in Nineteen

5:55

Seventy Four. businesses in the forgive me

5:57

in the means is distorted or vomit

5:59

the place. And I'm not even good with

6:01

the Peters. I don't know how in the world I

6:04

found all this out. Ty determined Steve Patterson

6:06

was indeed the John Doe they'd been

6:08

searching for and helped him reconnect with

6:11

the mother he never knew. Sandy

6:13

Brandenburg claimed the underground adoption was brokered

6:15

by her husband. Soon after,

6:18

Franklin Floyd disappeared with Sandy's oldest daughter

6:20

and lived on the run with her

6:22

for years. Authorities would

6:24

not tie all these threats together until

6:26

three more people were dead or missing.

6:29

The actual folders for

6:31

the case I would say

6:33

would stack about six feet high. It's

6:36

one of the most unique cases I

6:38

was ever involved with. From

6:40

iHeartMedia, Revelations Entertainment, First and

6:43

Last Productions, and Neon Hom

6:45

Media comes Hello John Doe.

6:47

We hear Todd work with Steve to learn

6:49

more about where he came from, though the

6:51

answers are discouraging. It also guides

6:54

listeners through the connections to the Sharon

6:56

Marshall and Michael Hughes cases and Todd's

6:58

efforts to reunite a family torn apart

7:00

by tragedy. Spoiler alert, we

7:02

are going to be talking about plot points from

7:04

Hello John Doe. So if you want to remain

7:07

spoiler free, go to the estimated time code in

7:09

our show notes for our thumbs up or

7:11

thumbs down reviews. So Kevin, you have to

7:13

admit Todd is a very interesting character.

7:15

Yeah, I mean, factory worker

7:17

by day, internet sleuth by night,

7:19

but he seemed to be really effective

7:21

one. He is definitely the emotional

7:24

center of this podcast. Even

7:26

though it's about Steve and the family

7:28

in that whole situation. You know, he

7:30

has a very comfortable read, sounds a

7:33

little Bill Rankin folksy. So he definitely

7:35

draws him in makes him accessible. And,

7:38

you know, we hear at the beginning

7:40

of Episode One, that there is a

7:42

big change in the story. And since

7:45

we are in the spoiler area of the podcast,

7:47

I would say that we find out at

7:49

the end that right after they finished recording

7:51

the podcast, that Todd died, which,

7:54

you know, looking back makes it

7:56

seem so tragic, Especially you

7:59

realize like what. The his

8:01

relationship with the dad was a deeper

8:03

aware of the podcast you know that

8:05

he had. These two siblings had died

8:07

and I remember the first time we

8:09

went to raise a river. My mom.

8:14

See us. The

8:17

Red Murders see got it all over. There

8:21

that are under cards in almost got

8:23

blood on her hands to just hold

8:25

your hands of citizens done that. But.

8:27

I'll see you find out that he grew

8:30

up sitting on the graveyard and as he

8:32

was comfortable around death and we the people

8:34

were not and we've seen armchair salutes that

8:36

are you know the there because are working

8:38

to their own trauma the just busy bodies

8:40

as a true crime said assists but his

8:42

interest really seem natural as and auto die

8:44

deck as somebody who created a sound a

8:47

sin around and John Doe's and Jane Doe's

8:49

and the to sort of makes his fate

8:51

sort of shocking. at the end. Sly was

8:53

really surprised at Pods skills. I mean it's

8:55

was pre actually like developed a pre name

8:57

is name is so much so that the

9:00

government has it up hiring him as a

9:02

contract and another up his job said she'd

9:04

made the first john Doe database after basically

9:06

being a hobbyist. So much so that his

9:09

was it me he is. why not write

9:11

that? He was like doing this all the

9:13

time. I mean it, it's not on interesting

9:15

that he took this on his at avocation

9:18

and a he actually did a bunch of

9:20

work and made progress and all these cases

9:22

right? right? I think what I

9:24

thought was interesting about that is that

9:26

right now I'm in a lot of

9:29

times we cannot like at least me

9:31

Anyways, I'm from. I roll my eyes

9:33

were like always it's more our minds

9:35

lose trying to find Maura Murray or

9:37

something illegal. Here we go again with

9:40

a Pdf browns and I feel like

9:42

because of the com more common now.

9:44

sometimes there's like a negative connotations and

9:46

you forgot or least I forget that

9:48

actually earlier in that sort of world

9:51

that there were legitimate volunteers with an

9:53

interest. In finding and helping

9:55

families you know that have

9:57

somebody missing or. Doing good work, you

9:59

know? He was dedicated to this

10:01

for a long time and starting with

10:03

this tent burrow case and then he's

10:06

successful.and then he creates some website and

10:08

it's the first of it's kind and

10:10

so this is like hearing Lake the

10:12

pre internet flute internet sleuths even though

10:15

he's in the internet era of you

10:17

know them say like this is like

10:19

before everybody else and jumped on the

10:21

internet sleuths, bandwagon and listening to the

10:24

evolution of his work in the area.

10:26

how emerges as website with this John

10:28

Doe network or Don't network. And

10:30

he's banned their director since then.

10:32

It's really interesting because it's like

10:35

somebody who followed their passion and

10:37

was able to then actually make

10:39

that I'm gonna call their career

10:42

really. Yeah. So when

10:44

I was in his podcast toby I

10:46

saw it last episode one I'm like

10:49

this is really interesting. I suspect this

10:51

tag is though to be about side.

10:54

And. All this stuff so he has done to

10:56

he has like this like skill and he was

10:58

in this game longer for other people were and

11:00

i just i guess is going to be about

11:02

a bunch of different stuff that he did to

11:04

that you are hope for this story when you

11:06

started listening through that he realizes his name be

11:08

about as one story. You know it's

11:11

orbit hard to tell from the beginning

11:13

frame but I'm yeah I see good

11:15

at least would have been better if

11:17

is done that way because I think

11:19

the difference between how addressing pod is

11:21

the how interesting this asshole story is

11:23

a to discovered goals they are but

11:25

unfortunately they had a dive into this

11:27

was really room case and I said

11:29

with the idea that this is the

11:31

case of high base you know this

11:33

is the case that like when I

11:35

look back on my career to date

11:37

this is the one that does who

11:39

stuck. With me and I, you know I

11:41

get that and I get why that would

11:43

be the podcast you want to make of

11:45

the of the options make a podcast but

11:47

from the standpoint of a listener ah yes,

11:50

all of it. Hard to tell right as

11:52

he dies of the ads, you know there's

11:54

not going to be another one. And

11:56

maybe his suicide. I'm just gonna hit

11:58

my five like most. How in cases

12:00

and our because the run that school

12:03

yard. But. In retrospect, know into

12:05

that soccer the happen. Having.

12:07

Add him talk sort of

12:09

more generally Er et les

12:11

blancs about more cases because

12:13

I'll be honest, liked. There

12:15

are times when I was disputed. I'm kind

12:17

of lost as to. What's. Going either

12:20

else he gets his storytelling. I think I've

12:22

just kind of checked out for little bit

12:24

and I'm back and I am not quite

12:26

clear what's happening here so do I looked

12:29

at it again he said review what you

12:31

wanted to be made it out review was

12:33

there but in this particular case a similar

12:35

to had this like incredible resource to decode

12:38

directed in one direction when sir a broader

12:40

look as if would have been would been

12:42

better. At Kevin. this

12:44

story actually overlaps with another

12:46

story that we have reviewed.

12:48

media around am a really

12:50

grim case right? Yeah, I'm

12:53

Sharon story was covered in the

12:55

girl in the picture and the

12:57

as his family tree goes that

12:59

when Steve and Phillips even was

13:01

given up for adoption really need

13:03

to get into that story I

13:05

see was the baby and the

13:07

oldest sibling was a girl name

13:09

is Suzanne was the birth name

13:11

rank and don't wear this overlap

13:13

with Franklin. Floyd Scissor very evil

13:15

person as have been you know

13:17

the next husband and so he

13:19

facilitates the adoption of the youngest

13:21

is not enough room in the

13:23

car or some crazy said and

13:25

then eventually runs away with the

13:27

oldest daughter renamed to share and

13:29

and they've lived this crazy life

13:31

on the Rhine, were passes or

13:33

offices, daughter and eventually his wife

13:35

and they have a child and

13:37

she dies under mysterious circumstances and

13:39

when he wants to play Michael

13:41

who is not his grandson but

13:43

his actual son. Allegedly, it's actually not

13:45

that he's he says that it is. Yeah,

13:47

That's where yeah yeah I mean and said

13:49

that part is unclear and sick He is

13:52

believed to have killed Michael Woods and dispose

13:54

of the body. A lot of people from

13:56

crime is seem to story for I do

13:58

recognize it us to be. It wasn't

14:00

Omaha that sounds like and it is

14:02

the girls a picture story. But what's

14:04

really interesting here is that in Girl

14:07

in the Pits is Steve's existence comes

14:09

as a relative surprise my maybe more

14:11

so as a coda that all this

14:13

happened and all the similar surprises the

14:15

and to find out stay there was

14:17

this one loss, siblings and were coming

14:20

added from it's a poorly different away

14:22

me said certainly I saints little more

14:24

interesting to com added in this direction

14:26

because I think it's more powerful for

14:28

Steve to learn of sharing. And

14:30

of everything that happened with her and

14:33

with Michael and that aspect, it's much

14:35

more saucy then to start with Sharon

14:37

and Michael story and then be brigade.

14:40

See bet it does again, it just

14:42

feels like a footnote. Yes I

14:44

will say of that couple things seizes

14:46

up in Traumatized Your he says. It's

14:48

very clear. The one thing about this

14:50

podcast and I know that's hard as

14:52

if a well intentioned person of egg

14:55

very clearly. but the subtitle of like

14:57

my close to Two like Reunited Family

14:59

ah the was receive lied He did

15:01

not want to be reunited with his

15:03

people. He was not obligated to be

15:05

reunited with these people. And the idea

15:07

that this is like Todd's missing year

15:09

unlike. Stephen legs but not

15:12

any was doing sign like yes everyone

15:14

is know who he was. I think

15:16

that what he found out who he

15:18

was he was like nope the same

15:20

good It's not being part of this

15:22

family like this is not what I

15:25

want to be. Pump the brakes and

15:27

this emotional and and he. Started drinking.

15:29

And he was very much backpedaling. I

15:31

think I mean like this is like

15:33

the worst case scenario and finding out

15:35

who you are right? Oh that's that's

15:37

all I'm thinking as I'm listen to

15:39

this is on. I've mentioned this before

15:41

that like my father was adopted and

15:43

I like for years of and like

15:45

eyes to get my dna testing done

15:47

other night or three like this and

15:49

I'm like no this was the most

15:51

depressing ancestry dna type style connect the

15:53

dots, who are your family members and

15:55

where did you come from stories and

15:57

just also being Steve and then hearing.

16:00

Read or some of these details. Like

16:02

the description that his adopted mother girls

16:04

of the state that he was in

16:06

when she went in and found him

16:08

with like maggots in his diapers. Pitiful

16:11

magazine a daughter was

16:13

slammed to in. Moscow

16:17

mouth mommy require stood or

16:19

of him watched him and

16:21

tier runners down her. On

16:24

here she said this is. Hardly.

16:26

That was a detail I don't know

16:28

if I needed to now necessarily. I

16:31

mean it definitely shed light on the

16:33

situation that was happening in the house

16:35

with Sandy, his biological mother. Or is

16:37

shed light on what his mother wouldn't

16:39

how she characterized it in order to

16:41

justify illegal adoption, exactly? I mean, just

16:43

imagine your this guy and you're You're

16:45

now finding out like not only the

16:47

good, the bad nearly, but like the

16:49

good, the bad, the ugly, in the

16:51

trauma and everything. I agree with Toby,

16:54

I think I would have liked to.

16:56

Perhaps here's some other thesis. Not.

16:58

Necessarily just this case because I also found

17:00

myself just like zoning out a time since

17:02

I think part of as of because I

17:05

kind of that mold and to this like

17:07

listening to Todd's voiceless. Very soothing to

17:09

me and sometimes like twenty. Minutes had

17:11

passed on to like oh, set,

17:13

what has happened, but I think

17:16

the level of information that was

17:18

gleaned about the family dynamics in

17:20

the family history was retarded. housing.

17:23

Lorries the like you want a year. Different

17:25

things. Are you seduce? You should join us

17:27

on Patriot Yes. Yeah, the patriot that has

17:29

less partners in crime edu of over there

17:31

hundred this and Canyon is or isn't as.

17:34

Sites and podcast episode a cover

17:36

of variety of stories. Every month

17:38

we have a bout between sixteen

17:40

and eighteen different podcast said come

17:42

out each month Latimer them are

17:45

podcast like today's episode come Out

17:47

Early an ad free their loss

17:49

of exclusives like the Crime Writers

17:51

on Ask Her Show yes. Classic

17:54

One this week. Selby Ball

17:56

finally had any. As

17:59

we age. Princess Bride Yes and

18:01

he to get his review get a

18:03

get his review and how this all

18:05

happened all this crazy thing happened. And

18:07

how didn't happen to begin with? Yep, still

18:09

be. Also has a podcast recording coming

18:12

up on May seventh as is for

18:14

his story about did that club still

18:16

be What books should people be reading

18:18

the bone up on this episode called

18:21

among the Prose is by Max Marshall

18:23

and it's about a crime ring run

18:25

out of a frat at the College

18:27

of Charleston. Really cool topic. Also we

18:30

have law breakers leave it to Bricker

18:32

podcast that are married with podcast. You

18:34

want to know more about the Sixty

18:36

that a sign up for our newsletter.

18:39

To go to primarieson.com and then just

18:41

put your email address in there. It's

18:43

Thursday. Saturday should be the day to

18:45

get in in your mailbox. Brand new

18:47

newsletter as all sorts of stuff Primaries

18:49

are behind the scenes. Recaps Crime is

18:51

a week pet of the week that

18:53

when see the penalty because of the

18:56

we don't want to see i'm Fine

18:58

are posted a week all sorts of

19:00

new months including stuff that we have

19:02

selected and curated from our Amazon storefront.

19:04

We can see some of our favorite

19:06

things were what are this week's Amazon.

19:08

Recommendations: Oh I really love arm as

19:10

a word or know Show sock said

19:13

the best. Until

19:15

be ball what are your

19:17

to listener inspired deep thought

19:19

recommendations will lead off with

19:22

see as self organizer rak

19:24

self adhesive black bathroom cells

19:27

Home farmhouse while sour inside,

19:29

organization and storage to poor

19:31

are V wow wow kinda

19:34

seems pretty nice. Bomb over

19:36

the other one is in

19:39

Asia Trays Pegboard self white

19:41

pegboard bins pegboard box pegboards.

19:43

By sober seven point five

19:45

inches. By three point Five

19:48

inches. By one point two

19:50

inches compatible with Ikea status

19:52

peg birth. Of

19:55

a of headboard but I'm the eyes

19:57

of Iran is early pegboard in that

19:59

says. Paypal or pegboard related.

20:01

am on a cool. Very cool.

20:04

Maybe he gets sad when you

20:06

stop us from that amazon.com/shop lasts.

20:08

Crime Riders on. We earned commissions

20:11

on qualify purchases. Do all your

20:13

shopping from that point amazon.com Last

20:15

Stop Class crime writers on. Kevin

20:18

the oriented business section as is very important.

20:20

By Cynthia do with. You

20:22

we have any patriot patrons. Easy the weaknesses.

20:25

Are patriotic patron saints are

20:27

L L Design and gasoline.

20:32

Blasio. Or less Kathleen he says it

20:34

is as thank you for supporting us on teacher

20:36

and a hobby. Stay with us forever. If

20:39

you listen to this business section and learned about

20:41

all the cloud is deathly, have. Bought. Their you

20:43

consider joining us. Killed five. Bucks. A

20:46

month Six bucks a month. The amount as

20:48

A to you for supporting our work with

20:50

you supporters on T Three and and we

20:52

really really appreciate We cannot make this tag

20:54

as without you Kevin is As and the

20:56

business excess sends the business section of Go

20:58

Ahead and Say That Music Out. Wait.

21:00

a. Second,

21:04

Before the break were talking about Steve

21:06

and I he he'll his discovery that

21:08

he's part of his family. What are

21:10

your thoughts on them? Okay, I do

21:12

have thoughts about. Sandy. And

21:14

Mary that who are brought up and I

21:17

got to see beyond like the clientele aspect

21:19

of this. This story really is mostly about

21:21

this family and in many ways issues with

21:23

a typical adoption. Although we can see there's

21:25

a lot of crazy shit piled on top

21:28

of this is what. The

21:30

I mean Steve hardly seems to care about

21:32

the idea that he's been a john doe

21:34

is really on up on zillions of wanting

21:37

to be wanted, which I think is very

21:39

natural in a lot of cases, even though

21:41

guess there's additional shit piled on top of

21:43

that. But the more interesting segments

21:45

about this podcast our towards the end

21:47

when we started confronting those conflicted feelings

21:50

of everybody sort of in this area.

21:52

In the in, this is the Roses

21:54

been diagram. all by being

21:56

different wavelengths about how they want

21:59

to engage and what this means

22:01

for their identity and who they

22:03

are because you have sisters, half-sisters,

22:06

you have people that aren't biologically

22:08

related to others, some that are

22:10

and they're all kind of confronting

22:13

this now as well as this

22:15

sort of non-consensual meeting that eventually

22:17

happens between Steve and Sandy which

22:20

certainly leaves him with mixed feelings

22:22

even before like his adoptive family

22:24

and his girlfriend get involved and

22:27

I think sort of shape his

22:29

perspective about what happened. See I

22:31

get that feeling that Steven was not, I mean

22:33

listen I'm not, I don't know Steven and we

22:35

can't speak for Steven right, we don't know him but

22:38

he was not in a great place before all this. No.

22:41

He wasn't in a great place you can tell because he didn't even

22:43

want to talk to his own parents about the fact that he knew he

22:45

was adopted right. That speaks to

22:48

something that he was already like in some sort

22:50

of like place where he couldn't communicate about this

22:52

right. Yeah. And he knows this

22:54

secret, he finds out that he's a victim

22:56

of a kidnapping that he was adopted, he

22:58

decides to wait years before exploring, he's carrying

23:01

this around and he's the kind of person who's

23:03

going to be like this is no big deal. It is

23:05

a fucking big deal Steven, it's a big deal and you know

23:07

that it's a big deal, your pretending it's not a big deal.

23:09

I felt so bad for this guy right. Yeah. And

23:12

like he's clearly the kind of person who holds a lot

23:14

of stuff in and then even the detail of finding the

23:16

adoption papers it's like what were you doing in your parents

23:18

closet? Oh I was looking for a gun. Like he

23:20

is just Christ Steven. Like

23:23

he would just say the most alarming

23:25

things like so casually right and

23:27

it's like oh I'm in the car, I don't want to

23:29

talk to you inside because it's like his girlfriend would talk

23:31

for him because he had been drinking so much that he

23:33

couldn't, you know what I mean? Like

23:36

I felt so bad for this guy and

23:38

yeah and obviously all the siblings had very

23:40

different feelings about Sandy. Some of them were

23:42

like oh she's the greatest so she'll give

23:44

you the shirt off her back and the

23:46

other one's like I fucking hate her. I

23:49

definitely and it's like everyone has

23:51

a different memory about different things about

23:53

it. Of course they do

23:55

because Sandy's life was a shit show. Like

23:57

Sandy was a victim of trauma multiple times.

24:00

Sandy was also like an alcoholic when

24:02

she was younger. Sandy had all these

24:04

issues. Sandy's memory is shit.

24:07

She doesn't remember anything about her own life.

24:09

And it's like, Todd, love you

24:11

Todd, but you're super functional. Stop trying to force

24:13

all these people to be functional when they're not

24:15

ready to be. Like, that's one thing

24:17

that makes me crazy. I'm just gonna divert here for

24:20

a second. When people say things like family's family, you

24:22

gotta like it along with your family. They're your family's

24:24

only one you have. I'm like, fuck you. You do

24:26

not. Maybe that's the way your family is, but not

24:28

everybody's family is like that. And I

24:30

feel like Todd had this very functional

24:33

life. And so through his

24:35

mind, everybody can have that. Because I'm optimistic,

24:38

so everybody can be optimistic too. It's like,

24:40

no. Todd, not everybody's as

24:42

fortunate as you are. And I

24:44

don't know, that's kind of made me nuts. Well, can I just

24:46

say, a lot of our adult listeners understand

24:48

if they come from an adoptive family, that

24:51

everybody approaches this differently. And there's no wrong

24:53

way to sort of feel at any different

24:55

time. And it certainly seemed like, Steve, whether

24:58

or not he ever wanted to get to

25:00

know Sandy, because it certainly seemed that like

25:02

he had sort of picked at the scab

25:04

before Todd had come along, you know, on

25:07

Facebook or whatever, that however he felt, and

25:09

however he feels today, it's kind of how

25:11

he's supposed to feel. And if there's anything

25:13

that everybody was too enthusiastic about, was trying

25:16

to get them together and

25:19

create some sort of familiar connection when he just

25:22

simply wasn't ready to do that. Right. So

25:24

Toby, you've learned this before, but this podcast

25:26

goes on for a long time. And

25:29

the stuff that like Kevin's talking about and I'm talking about are

25:31

just sort of, honestly, they're little strings of

25:33

things that I pulled out here and there. And

25:35

then in between there was just a lot, but

25:37

I don't really remember. Like, did

25:40

you have a sense of this thing kind of

25:42

like going on and on and on,

25:44

and there's like a lot of like folksiness in between,

25:46

and like, I don't remember like two thirds of this

25:48

thing, to be completely honest with you. Yeah,

25:51

I completely agree. I mean, it makes it

25:53

hard to talk about, right? Cause you're trying

25:55

to recall like stuff that happened in like

25:57

episodes three, four, and five or whatever. like

26:01

not 100% sure. Yeah,

26:03

I don't know. I mean, it's interesting in a

26:06

thing that was narrated by

26:08

the guy who sort of was

26:10

the prime mover behind all this, but

26:12

in some ways it feels like it's

26:15

less his journey than it

26:17

could have been, which might

26:19

have made it more compelling. It's also

26:21

just got this kind of unique, like

26:24

written in the script folksiness

26:26

where he's constantly saying things.

26:29

I wrote a few down. He says

26:31

the stakes were as high as a

26:33

Georgia pine. See,

26:35

it works for her. He talks

26:37

about somebody giving 110%. He

26:40

talks about something being like Groundhog Day. I

26:42

mean, it's just like all these kinds of

26:44

like folksy kind of stuff. And

26:46

maybe he really talked like that all the time. I mean,

26:48

that's fine. I've certainly met people who are kind of like

26:51

that, but to have it in a script

26:53

and reading it off just kind of felt a little

26:55

bit different and maybe trying too hard to write

26:57

in your own voice. Again,

26:59

the hard thing with this, I think, it's

27:02

not like some other stuff where it

27:04

felt like it was really padded, but

27:07

it just felt as though there was a

27:09

lot of time spent on

27:12

everything. And then it wasn't

27:14

always clear how

27:16

things tied together, I guess. And

27:18

so it was like, what am I listening to? And

27:21

one of the things that really struck out to me, and

27:23

Kevin was talking about this earlier, is

27:25

there's a point which is like, I'm like, hold

27:27

on, this sounds super familiar. Like what's going on

27:29

here? So I like looked it up

27:32

real quick and I'm like, oh, okay, so I know

27:34

this story. But that documentary,

27:36

I think just hit

27:38

a lot harder for some reason than this

27:40

one does. That story is to

27:43

me much more clear, even though we reviewed it, like I

27:45

don't even know how many months ago. And

27:47

I wish I could put a finger

27:49

on exactly what it is that had

27:52

a hard time keeping my attention. But

27:54

I do think it may have been sort of

27:56

the meandering nature of it, and just kind

27:59

of optimists. basically ruminating about things

28:01

or telling little side

28:03

stories or whatever. It became

28:05

very hard to understand what was important

28:08

and what wasn't. I totally agree, Toby.

28:10

I had the exact same feeling. I

28:13

know we don't talk about ads, but then

28:16

between that, I was fast-forwarding through five

28:18

minutes of ads every time I'd get

28:20

into listening to this. Can I say

28:22

one thing about the ads? There

28:26

was a built-in ad break that was intentional

28:28

and then one that wasn't. I'm just

28:30

going to say this. If you know

28:32

how to do a built-in ad break, do

28:35

all your ad breaks that way. An ad

28:37

break in between paragraphs is so jarring and

28:39

it really detracts from the listening experience of

28:41

any podcast, but especially in between two paragraphs

28:43

of a dude talking. It

28:45

makes no sense editorially, especially if

28:48

you know how to do it, and then later you

28:50

decide, okay, we should be doing two ad breaks because

28:52

we're selling the shit out of this podcast. Just

28:55

go back, edit the file, do your little music

28:57

bumpers, please, because there's just no reason not to.

29:00

It's bad for the listener. What

29:02

about Mary's motivations, Kevin? Do you have a note

29:04

about that and so do I. We should

29:07

just say Mary is Steve's mother.

29:10

The adopted mother. Yes. Granted,

29:12

again, we can't get in these people's heads. This

29:15

is obviously through Todd's lens of interviewing. We only

29:17

have what we have. Yeah. Okay.

29:20

First of all, I was hung up on

29:22

the assertion that Sandy, the birth mother, was

29:24

it more than just postpartum and PTSD like

29:26

she says. They necessitated the

29:29

adoption, the giving up, the passing off.

29:31

The relationship with the guy, yeah. With

29:33

Steve. So, I mean, because what

29:36

we hear at the beginning of the

29:38

podcast, the beginning of episode two, that

29:40

the circumstances were that Mary, who had

29:42

very recently lost a child, went in

29:44

and found, as

29:47

Laura said earlier, these children living in

29:49

squalor. Can I just interject one thing? Yeah. Sandy

29:52

says she knew Sandy, but Sandy doesn't say

29:54

she knew Mary. Sandy says she doesn't

29:56

know who Mary was. Didn't they work

29:58

together or something? Mary says she worked

30:00

with Sandy in the factory and then Sandy

30:03

says she said her name was Mary Washington

30:05

and I didn't know who she was. Now

30:08

while Todd acknowledges that there

30:10

are discrepancies in their stories, he doesn't

30:12

really challenge them on that, right? So

30:14

while I think it does make a

30:16

difference as far as if Mary's been

30:19

telling Steve the whole time I took

30:21

you because if it weren't for me,

30:23

you'd never be potty trained. That

30:26

says a lot about the nature of

30:28

their relationship which we kind of come

30:30

in and soon as like this is

30:32

a hero relationship. She

30:34

adopted him from this horrible situation.

30:37

Now certainly Sandy also is pretty sus

30:39

that while she seems to repeat the

30:41

same details of the story over

30:43

and over again, we also find out

30:46

that she married a man who sexually

30:48

abused one of her other children, right?

30:50

So she'd been living this life of

30:53

at risk behavior and getting into bad

30:55

situations already but I kind of, I

30:57

really didn't think much about Mary until

31:00

the end where, I mean

31:02

Steve was already dealing with these complicated

31:04

feelings of meeting Sandy at this motel

31:06

get-together. We're here at week, you think?

31:09

I think you will open your heart. Both

31:12

of you need it. We didn't

31:14

want Jerry Springer in but. Both of you

31:16

need it. Because you weren't going

31:18

to go. And it's no

31:20

false fault. If you want

31:22

to yell, yell at her. I'm not going to

31:24

yell at her. He said, I ain't going to

31:26

yell at her. Mary shows up and

31:28

she's clearly trying to play spoiler, right? Because

31:31

every time we hear from her again, it's

31:33

about how awful it is and perhaps this

31:35

is the reaction one might expect an adopted

31:37

mother might have with the presence of the

31:39

birth mother, you know, even after years and

31:41

years and years. I don't

31:43

know but to the detriment of the listener,

31:46

P.O.D. didn't really challenge that and he

31:48

acknowledges he's not a journalist and he

31:50

probably is a little biased because he's

31:52

going along on this journey. But I think

31:54

to both Mary and Steve and Sandy's detriment,

31:57

we didn't try to get a clearer picture of

31:59

what that was really. really all about. OK,

32:01

so Toby, you have a note that actually

32:03

reflects something that I feel very strongly about

32:05

about this podcast. And again, we

32:07

can't review something we didn't hear. However,

32:10

episode 11 is the episode that

32:12

came out after we hear that

32:14

Todd has died. And episode 11,

32:16

we heard the producer of the

32:18

podcast narrate the episode where she

32:20

is going to Todd's memorial, right?

32:23

So basically, she's the narrator, and

32:25

she's basically now talking about what

32:28

happened and the process and

32:30

the post process and everything. Episode

32:33

11, I'm like, she should have

32:35

been the host of the podcast and the podcast

32:37

should have been her following Todd. Why

32:39

wasn't it that? Wouldn't that- Her following

32:42

Todd following Steve? No, Todd should

32:44

have been the subject of the fucking podcast. Yeah,

32:46

I agree. Right? I mean, tell me, what do

32:48

you think of that idea? I mean, doesn't that

32:50

make sense? Yeah, no, well,

32:52

it is kind of like you say you can't

32:54

review what you don't have. I mean, it feels

32:56

like this is like a teaser of what it

32:58

could have been. Yeah, it's a co-hosted even,

33:00

like Gilbert and Kelsey. I

33:03

mean, you get a sense of Todd from his

33:05

narration, and at the beginning, he kind of talks

33:07

about all the stuff he did. And

33:09

that was almost kind of weird because I was like,

33:12

oh, like you must really be

33:14

something. But then you find

33:16

out that it's all true, right? It's like, it's not just

33:18

this guy blowing smoke. But yeah, I

33:20

mean, he comes across as this, like, I mean,

33:22

he's likable during the show, but then when you

33:24

hear other people kind of talk about him, you

33:26

realize that it's not just, you

33:28

know, people can be likable when they read

33:30

off a script, but that he had this

33:32

side to him where he was a joker.

33:34

Like he dealt with all the scrim stuff,

33:36

but maintained his optimism. People

33:39

really liked him. He was a big joker. Like

33:41

his son seems to have a really good relationship

33:43

with him and stuff. So sort

33:45

of being to the side of the mic

33:47

rather than right behind the mic might have

33:50

been a fine way of going about this.

33:52

And again, you know, I think it's just

33:54

easier to follow quite honestly. I mean, if

33:56

you're more sort of following his frustrations.

34:00

or his triumphs or

34:03

whatever, and even just talking to him about

34:05

what he felt about what was going on.

34:07

Like it would have been kind of interesting

34:10

to maybe hear him talk about sort of

34:12

Steve's resistance to some of the stuff that

34:14

he's trying to get Steve to do. It

34:17

would have allowed him to editorialize a little bit

34:19

more than he does in just the voiceover. So

34:22

in some ways, episode 11, even

34:24

though it's like a bonus episode and it's at the

34:26

end it doesn't really touch very

34:28

much on the main story. It touches a little

34:30

bit, but not a ton. Like in a

34:33

lot of ways that felt like the strongest

34:35

episode to me. I completely agree. And kudos

34:37

to them for putting this scene together when

34:39

it wasn't what was originally gonna happen and

34:42

making something that's affecting, right? You

34:44

do get the loss from people's

34:46

lives that him passing at

34:48

a young age is. Yeah, yeah, I agree

34:50

with tonight's epilogue. And I think that the

34:53

producer was super solid. I really liked her

34:55

when she did come on. But I disagree

34:57

that I felt like if they'd done that,

35:00

then I would have been saying, well, I

35:02

should have just been Todd, his story all

35:04

along. I mean, I had an easier time

35:06

sort of following the narrative than the rest

35:09

of you guys say so. So maybe that's

35:11

why I would see it differently. I

35:13

can totally respect that idea. You

35:15

think it might've improved the podcast. I think it

35:17

would have been a good podcast like that, but

35:19

I was fine with the direction they took. Okay,

35:23

let's do what we do. Let's let our listeners know. Should

35:25

they check out? Hello, John Doe. Laura Brooker, what do you

35:27

think? Thumbs up or thumbs down for this podcast? I

35:30

love going first. This

35:32

is a mild thumbs down for me.

35:35

I feel like Todd is a very

35:37

interesting character. I feel like the work

35:39

that he's been doing for a long

35:41

time before everybody else decided they wanted

35:43

to be an internet sleuth and actually

35:45

dedicated his life to this is

35:47

fascinating. I feel like the way

35:50

this story was told was really hard for

35:52

me to connect with. And I actually had

35:54

to just keep trying to re-listen to it because

35:56

I kept zoning out as I was listening,

35:58

which is often a hard thing. a problem with me

36:00

when I'm listening to something that's not like pulling me in

36:03

and then I'm like, oh shit, I have to find

36:05

a way to engage with this. But

36:08

I did like that we learned

36:10

more about Todd in the last

36:12

episode of this. And I feel like having

36:15

more of a focus on him

36:17

and maybe more than one

36:19

or two cases that he had been involved with, I

36:21

think that would have been like the legacy of the

36:23

type of work that he's been doing for all these

36:26

years. So it is a mild

36:28

thumbs down for me. Tell me about it. You

36:30

know, I think like Laura, this is a little bit of a tough one

36:32

for me to kind of wrap my head around in

36:34

that it's sort of a compelling

36:37

person and narrator talking about a

36:39

case that like just didn't leave

36:41

much of an impression on me.

36:43

And I found kind of hard

36:45

to sort of maintain my interest

36:47

in. I'm kind of

36:49

stuck between the slight thumbs down and a

36:52

some sideways. I guess I'll give it a

36:54

thumbs sideways just because again, the narrator, like

36:56

we can hear about what

36:58

he's done. Like he's not

37:00

just like another even like particularly

37:02

dedicated internet sleuth. Like he's somebody

37:04

who has created things that are

37:07

actually of use for broad paths

37:09

of people and including law enforcement

37:11

while maintaining a very sort of

37:13

optimistic, upbeat personality, which you get

37:15

a very strong sense of through

37:17

the course of the podcast. But

37:19

again, I think I echo Laura

37:21

in that I kind of struggle to

37:23

remember all the

37:25

details or just have more than a general

37:28

sense of what was talked about because it

37:30

didn't seem like everything was

37:33

always sort of vital to know. So

37:35

anyway, some sideways. Kevin Flynn. I'm

37:38

going to thumbs up. I think that

37:40

beyond the crime story here as it

37:42

is, this is really more of a

37:44

story, a look at a family. Pete

37:46

Patterson, how he became a John Doe

37:48

is not nearly as interesting to

37:50

us or really to him as

37:53

to the family that he

37:56

disappeared from and

37:58

what life could have been. struggle,

38:00

the emotional struggle with that and everybody

38:02

has including Todd, the host. Todd is

38:05

a very engaging guy and I think

38:07

that he tells the story in a

38:09

very accessible folksy way, which made it

38:11

for me easy to follow along, although

38:13

I will concede some of the points

38:16

of my fellow panelists. I do think

38:18

that if you maybe look past this

38:20

story and the connection to the other

38:22

crime stories that

38:24

we talked about up top, that at

38:27

its heart this is a story about

38:29

the emotions of family and

38:31

chosen family and issues

38:33

like who am I, where did

38:35

I come from? So for me it's a thumbs up.

38:39

I, gosh, I'm

38:41

going down sideways. I was really conflicted about this.

38:43

The first couple episodes of this I did not

38:45

dislike listening to at all because I just,

38:48

I'm really confounded about why this was made

38:50

the way it was made given everything that

38:52

was available to these podcast makers. I mean

38:54

you've got really talented people working on this

38:56

show. You have a

38:59

very fascinating central figure who

39:01

is legit like the

39:04

origin. He's like

39:06

the original internet sleuth man.

39:09

He was like the first one doing

39:11

this thing that's so important right now

39:13

and he's such an unusual person to

39:15

have been the first one doing it.

39:18

And the fact that he is the

39:21

host and not the subject is wild

39:23

to me, super wild to me. And

39:26

it's okay that it's like through the lens of a case

39:28

but I think that it was just made in

39:31

such a way that the

39:33

case ended up swallowing the interesting parts

39:36

of the podcast and not to its

39:38

benefit. And there's a

39:40

twist that is really

39:42

important obviously that illustrates my

39:44

point very much so because

39:47

I'm just going to leave it there. It's

39:50

confounding to me that this was made the way it was. It

39:52

also suffers from these. This has to be

39:54

a so many episodes disease and

39:57

I think it could have been this many episodes if it had

39:59

been made. with a different angle through a different way.

40:02

And when we kind of are revealed to people who are

40:04

working on it near the end of the show, it

40:06

becomes even clearer that it should have been made in

40:08

a different way. So

40:11

yeah, some sideways for me on this.

40:14

It certainly has some upsides. It's

40:18

really hard to listen to in many aspects.

40:20

So yeah, that's where I land on Dear

40:22

John Doe. All right, that's gonna do

40:24

it for us. But before we go, Laura Bricker, I have to

40:26

ask, do we have a cat of the week this week? We

40:30

have an animal we haven't had in

40:32

a while. Now, do y'all remember last

40:34

year when I rented goats to

40:36

eat my poison ivy outside my house? Yep.

40:39

Outside my condo? Wow, if

40:41

you are looking for a goat,

40:43

the tiny remote Italian island

40:46

of Alacudi has 100 residents and

40:48

100 wild goats, ideally. However,

40:52

this year, the ratio of humans to goats has

40:55

become out of balance. The island

40:57

is overrun by six

40:59

times the amount of desired

41:01

goats. More

41:03

animals per capita than anywhere else.

41:06

And they're calling on the public to

41:08

help solve this through an adopt a

41:10

goat program. So if

41:13

you would like a goat, an

41:15

Italian goat, you can adopt one

41:17

now. Wow. All

41:19

right, Laura Bricker, folks wanna reach out to you to find

41:22

out more about goat adoption. How can they find you online?

41:25

They can find me at Laura Bricker. All

41:27

right, Toby Ball, folks wanna reach out to you online. How can

41:29

they find you? At Toby Ball NH.

41:32

By the way, Kevin does an awesome glam

41:35

slash goat impression. Yeah. Oh

41:39

God, at the end of the article it says, ideally we would

41:41

like to see people try to domesticate them rather

41:43

than eat them. Kevin, fine, how can

41:45

you be found? You can find

41:47

me in our Facebook discussion group. If you

41:49

wanna follow me on Twitter or Instagram or

41:52

anywhere else, you can find me at Reb

41:54

LaVoy. Please, please, please join our Facebook discussion

41:56

group. It's pretty freaking awesome there. Just find

41:58

us on Facebook as a... post on

42:00

our page to join the group. We'll let you

42:02

in if you can name any one of the

42:04

four of us. Get episodes early and ad-free plus

42:06

more than 500 episodes of

42:08

extra content at our Patreon. That's patreon.com/partners

42:11

in crime media. It is freaking awesome.

42:13

We've got all kinds of levels, all

42:15

kinds of stuff. You will love it

42:18

back there. Our theme song was composed

42:20

and performed by Ty Gibbons. Our line

42:22

editor is the terrific Livi Burdett. The

42:25

executive producer of this program is my

42:27

lamb, Kevin Flynn. His show was

42:29

recorded in the Treehouse yoga studio

42:31

above the Mockingbird Cafe in Bay St.

42:33

Louis, Mississippi Studio, otherwise known

42:35

as Studio C, the closet, and a New

42:38

Hampshire basement where we also make non-contensual surprise

42:40

visits to long-lost relatives. On behalf of all

42:42

the crime writers, thanks so much for listening.

42:44

We will catch you later. Todd,

42:47

not everybody's as fortunate as you are. And

42:49

I don't know, that's kind of made me

42:51

nuts. I was just saying to put a bow on

42:53

that is that it will be able to... That's ironic for me to say. Sorry

42:56

Todd. Sorry RIP Todd. Oh,

42:59

oh. RIP Todd.