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Just want to remind folks that Rebecca and I will be

0:49

at Obsessed Fest this year. Yes. It's

0:51

October 20th to 22nd. It's in Dallas, Texas.

0:54

And speaking of our friend Patrick Hines, he

0:57

has a new book out.

0:57

Yes, and it's hilarious. You have your

0:59

copy. It's called Failure

1:02

is Not Not an Option. That's

1:04

right. So, you know, we know Patrick's

1:07

life is ridiculous. So he's put together 12

1:10

of his most embarrassing and outrageous stories

1:12

in this book. They're all, you know, true

1:14

to life. I mean, I didn't go fact check

1:16

them, but I'm just going to assume they're funny

1:18

enough. Didn't go

1:19

back in time. Not going back in time.

1:22

Did you know, Rebecca, I don't know if you got to the

1:24

part in the book yet, that he and his

1:26

husband, Steve, they spent 18 months

1:29

transforming their apartment into a daycare. Into

1:31

a daycare. Yeah.

1:32

Yes. And then they closed after

1:34

one week. Yes. Because they realized they

1:36

don't like other people's children. And

1:39

Patrick was once very excited to spend

1:41

the weekend with gay icon

1:43

and golden girl living legend, B. Arthur.

1:46

I'd say he's always hinted at what a disaster this was.

1:49

So now we get to hear the

1:51

whole story. Also, Patrick

1:53

spent his whole lifetime wondering if

1:56

his lesbian mother hooked up with Glenn

1:58

Close. Yep.

1:59

attraction Glenn Close when they

2:02

were in their 20s and guess what he

2:04

actually got an answer from

2:06

a slightly tipsy Glenn

2:08

Close herself at a Christmas party. So

2:10

you got to read all about it. Failure is not not

2:13

an option is out now in hardcover and as an audiobook

2:16

you can get it wherever you get your books and you

2:18

should get it but only if you like to laugh.

2:20

For exclusive podcasts and more sign

2:23

up at patreon.com slash partners

2:25

in crime media. I'm Rebecca

2:28

LaVoy and this is Crime Writers

2:30

On.

2:43

Crime Writers On is the original true

2:45

crime review podcast that digs into true crime,

2:47

pop culture, other podcasts and

2:50

on this episode for decades

2:52

the Boy Scouts kept confidential records

2:54

of sexual predators within their ranks

2:57

but the organization did almost nothing

2:59

to prevent the largest sex abuse case

3:02

in history. We'll discuss the

3:04

Netflix documentary Scouts Honor

3:06

the secret files of the Boy Scouts of

3:09

America. Joining me to get that done

3:11

and more is true crime author TV journalist

3:13

and host of the These Are Their Stories podcast

3:16

my husband and love of my life Kevin Flynn.

3:18

Hey Kevin. Hello Rebecca. Also with

3:20

us is private investigator certified pet

3:22

detective resident cat lady and author

3:25

of the Piper Green series of cozy mysteries

3:27

Laura Bricker. Hey Laura. Hey

3:30

Rebecca. And finally a resident

3:32

doubting Thomas the author of the City

3:34

Trilogy of Novels host of Strange Arrivals

3:36

podcast and our patreon deep dive book

3:39

club podcast host Toby Ball. Hi

3:41

Toby. Hello Rebecca. Okay

3:43

so Kevin. Yes. This is Thursday's

3:45

podcast. It is. What is coming up on Monday's

3:48

show?

3:48

On Monday we're gonna be talking about the new podcast

3:51

Exposed cover-up at

3:53

Columbia University. I

3:54

believe that it's hosted by Laura Beale

3:56

is it not?

3:57

I haven't listened yet but I believe

3:59

so right? Yes, I know that. From the Doctor

4:01

Death series. Yes,

4:02

and the only reason I know that, by the way, is because

4:04

she emailed to tell us about the podcast.

4:08

And apparently you'd already booked it, right?

4:09

It was already on the schedule. I'm

4:12

excited to listen to that one because lots of people have

4:14

been telling us we should, and every time that happens

4:16

I'm always like, oh, we should probably listen.

4:18

She's writing it in because she wants redemption from Crime

4:20

Riders on. Why?

4:21

Did we do something to her? I think

4:23

the last Doctor Death we were, or the

4:26

last thing she was on, that

4:28

place in Switzerland was abandoned.

4:30

Yeah, that Doctor, like Doctor, and Bad Batch, isn't she

4:32

also Bad Batch? Oh,

4:34

maybe, yes. I forget. She's the one

4:36

with all the hands. I love Laura, though. She's really

4:39

nice. I've always never had a problem with her, yeah.

4:41

Yeah, she's a really, really lovely person.

4:43

All right, so Kevin, before we start the

4:45

program, is there anything that you would like to plug this

4:47

week? Yeah, I just want to let you know that next

4:49

week is my

4:50

annual Walk a Mile in Her Shoes fundraiser.

4:53

You've been hearing me talk about this. I will put on a pair of high-heeled

4:55

shoes and I will walk with a bunch of other people to raise

4:57

money for the Crisis Center of Central New Hampshire.

5:00

And they provide emergency services

5:03

for women and families in need who

5:05

are having crisis, crises, crisises? Crises.

5:08

Crises. You

5:11

know, intimate partner violence, things of this

5:13

nature. And it's a great cause. Folks,

5:16

if you want to donate

5:18

and sponsor my walk, which I'll

5:20

be streaming live on Facebook, you

5:22

can do so by going to CrimeWritersOn.com.

5:25

There's a link right there. Throw a little money our way. Last

5:28

year I was the number one fundraiser. Thanks

5:31

to you. Thanks to you guys. I just

5:33

don't want to come in second place again.

5:35

Not again, but I just don't want to come

5:37

in second place. You have come in second place. Yes,

5:39

you know, I just want to impress

5:41

everybody again there that we have listeners

5:44

from all around the world who are

5:46

willing to support us financially,

5:49

even if it's a small way. If it's five bucks, that's

5:51

fine. Some people are doing

5:53

up to $100. Loving all of it. It

5:55

goes to a great cause. And you

5:57

get to see me walking in high heel shoes.

5:59

again. I'll just say there's one other

6:02

man there that is very competitive that Kevin wants

6:04

to beat. Yes. He

6:06

may or may not wear a uniform. Yes. Kevin

6:09

wants to beat him again. He always beats you. Last

6:11

year you beat him and you would like to beat him

6:13

again. That guy has

6:14

like a set of like pinky boots boots.

6:16

Yes. That are just, yeah, I mean

6:19

like patent leather and they go up to

6:21

his thigh and he

6:21

like moves fantastic in them. Yes.

6:25

It might be because he has a job that requires physical

6:27

fitness as one of the requirements.

6:28

And you do not? And I put balance, agility,

6:30

yeah. Hey, balancing this microphone. I'm like, Shane, come

6:32

on. Yes, yes.

6:34

I'll say the Crisis Center

6:36

Central New Hampshire, just to expand upon

6:38

it, it's one of those organizations where if

6:41

someone needs to leave because

6:43

they're experiencing domestic partner violence, they provide

6:45

a place to go. They also provide

6:47

counseling services. They provide items

6:50

for families. They do so much work. And as an

6:52

organization like this in your community that you like to help out,

6:54

I encourage you to seek them out and provide

6:56

whatever help you can. Yeah. Okay.

7:00

So can we have a really interesting documentary to talk about? Should we just get down

7:02

to it? Yeah. Why don't you go lead

7:04

off? All right. Let's lead off with that first

7:06

clip right now. This is a human rights movement we're talking about

7:08

today. A civil rights movement for

7:10

children against one of the biggest offenders

7:13

in the world, the Boy Scouts of America.

7:15

The thought of as a leading youth group for skills

7:17

and character building, the Boy Scouts

7:20

often attracted adults who preyed on

7:22

children. For decades, the national

7:24

headquarters cataloged these incidents in confidential

7:27

files, but publicly denied

7:29

there was a problem.

7:31

They wanted you to project their image of safety.

7:33

Market, there's an image of safety. That's

7:36

not what you were seeing, though. That's totally

7:38

not what I'm seeing.

7:38

It wasn't until a former scout sued

7:41

that the files were disclosed, revealing

7:43

leaders knew about but never acted

7:45

on hundreds and hundreds of cases

7:47

of abuse. And even today, after

7:50

a multi-billion dollar settlement with

7:52

victims, whistleblowers say the Boy

7:54

Scouts are failing in their mission to protect

7:56

its members.

7:57

I'm not going to say it would be quiet, but

7:59

I know kids are still there. still at risk of being

8:01

sexually abused in scouting.

8:03

The Netflix documentary Scouts

8:05

Honor, the secret files of the Boy Scouts

8:07

of America, looks into the cover-up

8:09

behind the largest sex abuse case

8:12

in history. Survivors,

8:14

journalists, and insiders recount what happened

8:16

when the organization that urged young men to

8:18

be honest and trustworthy ignored

8:21

its own ideals in favor of self-preservation.

8:23

Spoiler alert,

8:25

we are going to be talking about plot points from Scouts

8:27

Honor. So if you want to remain spoiler free, go

8:30

to the estimated time code in our show notes for

8:32

our thumbs up or thumbs down reviews. Additional

8:35

note, I am the host of Netflix's You Can't

8:37

Make This Up podcast and we covered

8:39

Scouts Honor however, that has not

8:41

affected my review.

8:44

So Toby, let's talk about the Boy Scouts.

8:47

What are they all about in your mind?

8:49

So you know the Boy Scouts, I

8:52

think more than most organizations,

8:54

like there's definitely like a picture you

8:56

have in your mind of the Boy Scout

8:58

in their uniform and Eagle Scouts and helping

9:00

old ladies across the street and

9:03

learning about camping and going on camping

9:05

trips. Learning to tie a square knot. All this

9:08

stuff, right? So it's like, it's

9:10

sort of like non-sport stuff for

9:12

boys. And so that's obviously

9:14

like a brand and an image that

9:17

they have fostered for like,

9:19

I don't even know how long it's been around, but

9:21

for well over a hundred years. It

9:24

also seems in some ways like

9:27

a piece of the past

9:28

maybe.

9:29

But I think what this documentary does pretty

9:32

well is showing that it's not just the image

9:34

they have with the public, but it's their self-image

9:37

and the way that they kind of buy

9:39

into this sort of idealized version of

9:41

themselves and aren't willing to

9:44

sort of confront the realities of... It's

9:47

not like it could only happen with the Boy Scouts,

9:49

but the Boy Scouts didn't take the necessary

9:52

steps, I think in large part because

9:54

of their self-image of being this sort

9:56

of virtuous place for

9:58

boys. I mean, it's ubiquitous,

10:01

Boy Scouts. You say Boy Scouts to people and everybody

10:03

knows what you're talking about, there's no confusion.

10:05

You know what's interesting? I

10:07

mean, Laura will talk about, I mean, there's obviously parallels

10:10

to the Catholic Church, you know, sex

10:12

abuse cases. I just kept thinking when

10:14

I was watching this about parallels to

10:17

private schools and, you know,

10:19

prep schools where, you know,

10:21

one of the things that gets pointed out here is that

10:23

Boy Scout troop leaders, you know,

10:25

anyone can be a troop leader, right? And

10:28

the Boy Scouts are image, image, image,

10:30

image, and they have files that they are keeping

10:33

for some reason. And I keep

10:35

thinking about the reason that I have a parallel to prep

10:37

schools is because, you know, private schools,

10:39

teachers don't have to be certified. They

10:42

don't have to go through the same sorts of checks

10:44

or anything. And I mean, maybe some schools have

10:46

those processes, but others don't. And

10:48

it is, again, all about image. It's all about

10:51

building character. It's all about you

10:53

send your kids here and they'll come out as

10:55

sort of like different kinds of people.

10:57

And it is very much about you guys

10:59

get to sleep here and your parents

11:02

don't kind of situation. And

11:04

Laura, that's what struck me with the Boy Scouts

11:07

thing is that it is uniquely suited

11:10

for abuse because the kids are

11:12

away sleeping at camps

11:15

and at, you know, out activities with

11:18

adults who have not been vetted. And that makes

11:20

it a unique environment set

11:22

up for abuse. Yeah. And

11:25

I will say I'd like to kind of put this sort

11:27

of out there that, you know, my son

11:29

was in

11:30

scouts for quite a while from

11:32

Cub Scouts up through Boy Scouts. But

11:35

when he was in

11:36

scouts,

11:37

this had all come out and their

11:40

protocols were so strict that

11:42

like he could not even ride to

11:44

a camping trip in a car with

11:47

a scout leader that was not his parent

11:50

if there were not other children there. Like it

11:52

was so strict that set

11:55

by who though, because that was your trip.

11:57

I'll tell you, that's not what it's like in

11:59

every.

11:59

group though. It's a national, it's that they

12:02

have new guidelines and I know

12:04

that my ex-husband, when he

12:06

was going to be chaperoning, he had to go through

12:08

all sorts of training and it

12:11

was a pain. It was not inconsequential,

12:13

the amount of training he had to go to even

12:15

go on a camping trip as a chaperone.

12:18

So after this, there

12:20

are a lot of protocols in place and there

12:22

are a lot of safety measures in place.

12:24

The way it was explained to me locally was this was like

12:26

coming down from national. These

12:28

were new protocols that were put in place because of everything

12:31

that had happened. Yes, I agree

12:33

with you, Rebecca. Prior to that, it

12:35

sounds like a nightmare in a way, having

12:38

people being put in this position

12:40

where they are out there with children

12:42

unsupervised.

12:45

Did you get the sense though, Kevin,

12:47

that it really is just like kind

12:49

of willy nilly depending on where you are, who

12:51

you are? Like there isn't a lot of regulation going on

12:53

and they had these records and didn't do anything

12:55

with them.

12:56

Yeah, well,

12:58

I mean, to Lara's point here, Michael Johnson,

13:00

who was the guy that was hired

13:03

to sort of run the safety, says

13:05

that there is lip service to

13:07

this but they are not really doing the things that they are supposed

13:10

to be doing. They are not even going to do like a background check. Like

13:12

I needed that to be an umpire and I am not like anywhere

13:14

near a kid, right? Well,

13:16

I guess I am near the catcher but that just... You

13:19

are never alone with me. No, God, no.

13:21

You

13:21

are in front of teams, coaches, parents. Exactly.

13:24

They are saying way worse than you

13:26

ever do. Yeah, yeah. They

13:28

do. But the idea, I am still

13:30

stuck on the idea just basically of

13:33

why the scouts were compiling

13:36

these records if they cannot

13:38

act on them because if their idea

13:40

is like we are going to have these files so

13:42

that we can make the place safer, they

13:45

never acted on that. But if they

13:47

are going to be like, well, we want to cover this up,

13:50

why are you taking these notes and

13:52

creating an alphabetized system showing

13:55

all the ways that you are failing?

13:57

I just did not

13:58

get why. You know? The Catholic Church did this.

13:59

same freaking thing. Well, I don't know if you ever

14:02

worked at a grocery store or a place

14:04

where they're like, by the register they would put

14:06

up a little thing like, don't accept checks

14:09

anymore from these people. And I wonder

14:11

if it started, they thought, well, we're going to

14:13

keep a list of the 30 people

14:17

who are bad scout masters and we'll let them

14:19

know, we'll let people know, and then they just snowballed

14:22

and there was too many to do anything about. I have

14:24

no idea. I mean, that's like the only

14:26

thing I could possibly think of, why

14:28

you would just like take the names

14:30

and then not do anything with it. I mean,

14:32

my assumption was that just in a place

14:35

that's got to have a decent sized bureaucracy, there

14:37

was probably somebody who thought it was a good

14:40

idea to collect all this stuff, but then the

14:42

person who was supposed to sort of put anything

14:44

into action was like, fuck no, we're not

14:46

doing this. So it wouldn't

14:49

surprise me if it was just two people with

14:51

different ideas about what was going on or

14:53

two departments. Because that happens, that

14:55

feels like that happens all the time. And with something

14:58

as explosive as this, like

15:00

I just, when they talk to the general counsel,

15:03

you know, I mean, that guy just seems like, in

15:06

some ways I felt bad for him. I'm like, this is a freaking

15:08

no win situation for you.

15:11

Like you're just getting nailed for all the stuff

15:13

that's happened before. But

15:15

his response is exactly the kind of response

15:18

of a guy who's not going to act on

15:20

a file cabinet

15:23

full of sex abuse cases. I mean,

15:25

it is just sort of, you know, this institutional,

15:29

you can't power us all, this has performed my time,

15:31

you know, wasn't responsible. I mean,

15:33

it just is all this sort of not

15:36

owning up to things and trying to move forward

15:38

without taking too much heat.

15:40

I'll tell you that we're a microcosm of our

15:42

entire society.

15:43

If we had a problem, our society

15:45

had a problem, many other institutions

15:48

had the problem. We just happen to be

15:50

the one with the deep pocket

15:52

right now. And the one that's willing

15:54

to make the social commitment to try to make it

15:56

right and to try to apologize.

15:59

to try to do everything we can to keep

16:02

it safe, try to compensate

16:04

for these victims, but then to continue

16:06

the mission. But

16:08

can we talk about the files? I mean, the perversion

16:11

files, that was actually the name of

16:13

those files, and that they had

16:15

them going back more than 100 years.

16:19

That's the part that is kind

16:21

of astounding, that it was

16:24

so prolonged at

16:26

the core. And that makes me sad, because

16:28

like I said, I have family members that were in

16:31

Scouts that are now in their

16:33

60s that have had very positive

16:35

experiences. And

16:37

it's sad that something that

16:40

at its heart could have been about teaching about the outdoors

16:42

and camping and being a

16:44

good citizen has this 100 plus

16:47

year history

16:49

of

16:49

hovering things up and putting it in files

16:52

like that. To me, that's just very sad.

16:55

Well, in the modern case, there's more than 82,000

16:59

victims in a contemporary case. That's

17:01

what makes it the largest. And by the way,

17:03

that's just people who have come forward and talked

17:05

about it. So we know there are many,

17:07

many, many, many more victims in these 82,000. So

17:11

ultimately, the Boy Scouts hire this guy, Michael

17:13

Johnson, as their youth protection, youth

17:16

safety officer. And he's

17:18

former law enforcement. And in my opinion,

17:20

and this, I think, often

17:23

happens where institutions in an effort to protect themselves

17:26

hire somebody sort of as a figure

17:29

head, right? They're like, we've hired this person. We've

17:31

hired this ombudsman. Or we've hired this

17:34

in some corporations. It's like our chief diversity

17:36

officer. We've hired a person to solve a

17:38

problem that we know we have, who

17:40

they don't actually think is going to

17:43

do anything. But because they have the job, they think

17:46

having the job is enough, right?

17:49

They didn't get what they paid for in Michael

17:53

Johnson, right, Toby?

17:54

Yeah. I mean, he shows up.

17:57

And he's like, what are

17:59

we going to do about that? this problem and

18:01

that's his career. He goes

18:06

about looking into things and finds that

18:08

not only are people not taking it seriously

18:11

and deluding themselves or whatever,

18:13

but I think he talks a couple times about

18:16

the guys in charge of the Boy Scouts who actually

18:18

has his name put on a

18:21

publication about child safety

18:23

in the Boy Scouts and he didn't actually

18:26

even read it. He had

18:28

some lackey who was on this committee.

18:30

He doesn't even really know what's

18:33

in it. So he's there

18:35

for a while and then he finally gets so

18:38

frustrated that he becomes a

18:40

whistleblower, right? He leaves and becomes a whistleblower

18:43

and is among the people, although

18:45

I guess we'll talk about the other case later that

18:47

really breaks it all down, but who exposes

18:50

what's going on and his point is

18:52

that it's like inherently

18:54

a high-risk organization.

18:57

Just when you're giving adults

19:00

that kind of access to kids, especially

19:02

in overnight situations, like you've just got

19:05

to think of that as being high-risk even

19:07

if it's only like a certain percentage of

19:09

the time, but they didn't approach safety

19:11

that way, right? They didn't consider it high-risk.

19:14

What were they telling you to say? Oh, that

19:16

Boy Scouts of America is safe. The

19:19

Boy Scouts of America's gold standard. The

19:21

Boy Scouts of America has

19:23

a rigorous application of screening

19:25

process. The Boy Scouts of America

19:28

conducts criminal background checks of all of its leaders.

19:32

The youth protection program is

19:34

better and by far than any

19:37

other youth-serving organization

19:39

program. Yeah, I don't know if you know.

19:41

I mean, there's the Scout Oath, which

19:43

starts off, on my honor, I

19:45

will do my best

19:46

and they obviously did not live up to

19:48

those ideals. And then there's also the

19:51

Scout motto, which is be

19:53

prepared. So you always have to be prepared

19:56

for me transitioning into the business

19:58

section. Oh,

19:59

Kevin. We're we were not

20:01

prepared for that, but I guess we should have been

20:03

yeah, I'm here sitting here.

20:04

I'm tying knots Yeah, I'm

20:06

doing toting chip, which is like you take the

20:09

knife and you like whittle. Yeah, right.

20:11

I did I went to summer camp I'm

20:14

So

20:14

old-fashioned I can't I can't

20:17

add I can't we'll talk about that after

20:19

the business action go ahead

20:20

Okay, so when I say be prepared be

20:22

prepared to watch us live

20:24

on patreon Talking about

20:26

only murders in the building on October 3rd We want

20:29

you to watch the season finale on Hulu

20:31

and then join us live as we give our reviews

20:33

for a For a quick turnaround

20:36

on an excellent to hopefully be an excellent

20:38

episode great discussion about one

20:40

of our favorite TV shows Does it will

20:43

we will we guess who the killer

20:45

or killers are and will we be

20:47

satisfied with the way it ends up

20:49

join? There you can sign up for

20:52

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Episodes of crime writers on early and ad-free

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you also get exclusive podcasts more than 400 of

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get well the crime writers on after show

21:07

you get married with podcasts where Rebecca

21:09

and I dish out advice like to

21:11

the the woman who Whose

21:15

kid kept biting everybody at daycare.

21:17

I love that what to do about that.

21:19

It's gonna be marked forever No,

21:21

it's the kids. He's a baby

21:22

gonna be scarred. Yeah, he's a baby Yeah,

21:25

Laura bricker has this great episode

21:27

called what a dump because

21:29

some dog Some giant

21:31

dogs mystery dog is pooping all

21:34

over.

21:34

It's like Clifford the big red dog is pooping

21:36

all over Clifford's big brown

21:38

dookies what yeah Marma

21:41

do yeah So she's looking in

21:43

that and of course we have Toby balls deep dive

21:45

for book club the latest book is

21:48

Called beneath a ruthless son

21:50

is written by Gilbert

21:52

King who's the investigator

21:54

behind bone Valley But

21:57

we got bone and dookie on

21:59

the same Business section. It's really we're

22:02

really mature.

22:02

Yeah. Yeah, we really are we get we

22:05

get that a lot by the way how mature

22:06

we are Say yeah,

22:09

I know you are but what am I? Yeah I also

22:11

want to let you know that if you're looking for other things to listen

22:14

to we have these are their stories the law And order

22:16

podcast this week. We're talking about a classic

22:18

episode of SBU This

22:20

is the one Chris is the one where we see Olivia

22:22

come out of Brian Cassidy's bedroom They're like, oh

22:25

apparently they're wearing his shirt. They've been fucking

22:27

yeah She needed that D.

22:30

Neither the D. Yeah, absolutely And this is a

22:32

case where apparently like both Amaro

22:34

and Cassidy while they're undercover They're

22:36

going under the covers. Yes the women

22:38

while they're undercover. Yeah, listen And your

22:41

shoes are a process play. So you drag

22:43

me through the market with my lawyers call. I didn't

22:45

break that Anybody did

22:47

you might be close? I Cynthia and

22:49

I have a relationship. Yeah, like being a charisma

22:52

mister Holdier than now the Christian all your own

22:56

And so Kevin before we end the business section do

22:58

we have any patreon patron saints of the week this

23:00

week a patreon patron saints are

23:03

Michaela Mayucci

23:04

and Hillary

23:07

Bless you

23:08

Bless you Michaela and Hillary. Thank

23:10

you so much for being patrons. Thank you for everybody

23:12

who supports us on patreon I would like

23:15

recommend that you maybe try out

23:17

our patreon for a couple of months because this

23:19

is good stuff back there You get it for seven days

23:21

for free if you want Yeah, but even if you don't support

23:24

us there We really appreciate listening to our dumb

23:26

business section anyway, because you know We

23:29

appreciate you that way. All right, Kevin is us in the

23:31

business section

23:31

I don't know you want to talk about dog dookie anymore.

23:33

No, all right. Well then bus ends

23:35

the business I'm

23:36

gonna go and pay that music out right

23:39

now

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25:44

Okay, so Laura, there is a component of this that

25:47

does cross over, of course, with

25:49

the church. There's a conversation here that

25:51

I don't think is insignificant about Mormon

25:54

influence on the Boy Scouts and

25:57

how a lot of Boy Scout meetings do take place

25:59

in the place in church basements so there

26:01

is not not

26:03

a religious affiliation

26:05

with the Boy Scouts. Oh, totally. And

26:07

I will say again, going back to my

26:09

own family's scouting experience,

26:12

there are two scout troops in town. One

26:14

is affiliated with the Catholic Church and

26:17

one is affiliated with... I feel like

26:19

they were in the basement of the Jehovah Witness Church.

26:21

Ooh, with the Jets and the Sharks. I

26:23

know. So it was like, which troop are you

26:25

going to go to? The Catholics or the Jehovah Witness one?

26:27

But so they always had that, you

26:30

know, sort of behind like, okay. And

26:32

it wasn't any sort of overt religion

26:34

sort of brought out. But yeah, there

26:36

was that affiliation. And I was

26:39

like, of course, the Mormons

26:41

are involved in this. Yes. You know what I

26:43

mean? Yeah. Was it the Mormons that were

26:45

more upset about gay troop leaders?

26:48

They didn't have an influence. Yes. I

26:50

mean, absolutely they were. Absolutely they

26:52

were. More upset about that than

26:55

children being molested. So go

26:57

figure. But we'll get rid of these gay

27:00

leaders and then then we will be

27:02

morally straight and clean. Yeah.

27:04

Like was that was the language that was used? I'm

27:06

like, are you fucking kidding me right now? Really?

27:09

I'm

27:09

just gonna throw something out there. And you

27:11

may all disagree with me. I think

27:14

a lot of the norms of the Boy Scouts

27:16

and everything that they represent are

27:18

so freaking old fashioned and

27:21

weird to me. The whole idea

27:23

that boyhood and masculinity is shaped

27:26

by things like going

27:28

in the wilderness, tying knots, being a man in

27:30

a certain way.

27:31

Of course it's homophobic.

27:35

Of

27:35

course it's like tied to

27:37

all of these things that are rife for abuse.

27:40

It is just like the

27:42

Catholic Church where it's like you have

27:44

to be a certain way. You can't

27:46

sin. You have to be pure because that's the only

27:48

thing that makes you a good kind of person. The

27:51

Boy Scouts is very similar in its view

27:53

of masculinity where like boys have to

27:55

be a certain way to be a boy. Like

27:58

that's just like it's like taking you back. to

28:00

like the 1930s and 40s and 50s,

28:02

it's like reading an Ernest Hemingway book

28:04

where it's like the code of honor. Like

28:07

you have to do these certain things. It's like you're

28:09

returning from war and you have to have all

28:11

these skills. It just to me

28:14

feels very,

28:16

very stuck in a time and place

28:19

and a mindset that

28:21

is very, very ripe

28:24

for possibilities of

28:26

like the kind of judgment that of course

28:28

would be the same kind of place that would be like a hunting

28:31

ground for predators. That's what it's always like.

28:34

It's always like the places that say they're the purest

28:36

and the best and the most old fashioned where

28:38

the most predation happens. We hear about it

28:41

over and over and over again. It's

28:44

like how do we not think

28:46

that this is going to happen here? I don't know.

28:49

That's just my take on it. Yeah, and then every

28:51

once in a while in this, I mean I agree.

28:54

And part of, as a parent, I was like, oh great,

28:56

my kid doesn't have to be on cell phones for the whole

28:58

weekend. That was like I was so ecstatic.

29:01

But within the people that are turning

29:03

a blind eye, the perversion files

29:06

and all this stuff, every once in a while there's somebody

29:08

that's doing the right thing. We have

29:10

the doctor that gets a disclosure

29:13

in New Orleans, reports it to, I

29:15

want to know is this Harry Connick's

29:17

father? It is, yeah. Harry Connick?

29:20

It is, yeah. Yes, yes.

29:21

And he does something. So I'm like, okay,

29:24

so every once in a while you hear somebody

29:26

trying to bring some accountability to

29:28

the

29:28

situation. So when he hears about that the Boy

29:31

Scouts are running a pedophile ring in New Orleans,

29:33

he decides he's going to do something? I

29:35

mean it's just so... It

29:38

had to be a whole ring. Yeah. Couldn't

29:41

ignore that. Yeah. Yeah. I

29:43

think though if you like say, well, it was the church's influence

29:45

that they conflated homosexuality

29:48

with pedophilia, I think it lets the

29:50

organization off a little too easy because

29:52

I think it was probably something inside. But

29:56

you quote, you actually quoted part again of the

29:59

Scout oath. I'll keep myself physically

30:02

strong mentally awake and morally

30:04

straight and so whatever that

30:07

means That's code for no

30:09

gays and the gays are bad and that You

30:12

know this is a time where like being gay was

30:14

illegal and you certainly wouldn't want any Homosexuals

30:17

to be teachers and that's just so old-fashioned

30:19

and out of day. We know that's absolutely correct

30:21

two things before that

30:22

physically strong really strong

30:24

what physically What's

30:26

the

30:26

actual fuck? What is that?

30:29

That's like saying like only sporty kids

30:32

are good kids. That's fucking terrible

30:33

Yeah, but it just you know the

30:35

implication that you know being morally straight

30:38

means that if you're gay you can't you

30:40

know You're immoral. Yeah And

30:42

but I will say like I can certainly see today's

30:45

Supreme Court saying this but I was really surprised

30:47

that Yesterday's Supreme Court gave

30:50

a private organization like the Scouts the

30:52

ability to ignore the civil rights of gay people Just

30:55

like they would for a church like a church is I

30:57

want a religious exemption They gave this private

31:00

group essentially. What is a religious exemption

31:02

or a moral exemption? Yeah, and allow

31:04

them to violate the civil rights

31:07

of of gay scouts and gay scout leaders.

31:10

It's just like Man, well,

31:12

you know, you should be paying two billion dollars, but

31:14

Kevin Yeah,

31:15

how surprised were you to hear about the guy who

31:17

wrote the policy on care for the Boy Scouts

31:19

organization?

31:19

Oh back to me Douglas Smith. Yeah. Yeah,

31:21

he was convicted of child pornography Yeah, and

31:23

you know, this is really I think it says really more about

31:26

public perception and attitudes about these

31:28

issues than it does about The Boy Scouts

31:30

themselves that the guy that you

31:32

know, roast the safety

31:34

manual had child pornography

31:37

It's because it's a giant red flag like

31:39

if an archbishop being in a sexual predator you

31:41

go, man That serves blah blah blah the

31:43

idea that systemic abuse in the Scouts

31:46

didn't resonate with the public after

31:48

that incident They I think it's really puzzling.

31:51

I mean, I think it just goes to show like it's

31:53

just him It couldn't be all the Boy Scouts because they're

31:55

all American and pure and we all got merit

31:57

badges when we were in it

32:00

I found that surprising. I

32:02

have a question and Toby, this is something that I just,

32:04

it wasn't addressed in the documentary and it's not a failing

32:06

of the documentary, but I'm curious about it. So

32:09

the Catholic Church owns a tremendous amount of

32:11

property and also has a lot of religious

32:14

influence and historic influence.

32:17

In the Mormon Church, we know it's one of the largest property

32:20

owners in the United States of America and they have a lot

32:22

of cultural influence. I've been talking

32:24

about organizations that

32:26

we've looked at before on the podcast,

32:28

other documentaries about them where abuse has

32:30

happened, Scientology, same thing. Obviously,

32:34

they're much smaller than they pretend they are, but they have a

32:36

lot of money. MLMs would be another

32:38

one. There's a business motivation

32:40

there. But the Boy Scouts are a very decentralized

32:43

organization. They probably have a headquarters.

32:45

They get dues to run the

32:47

troops and stuff. What

32:50

is the incentive for

32:52

self-protection, you think? Because

32:54

it's like, they're just a brand. It's

32:58

not like they have a church in every town in

33:00

America, like a building. You know what

33:02

I mean? That's the thing that's confusing

33:05

to me because it would seem to me like

33:07

they'd be very incentivized

33:09

to keep their brand right.

33:10

Yeah.

33:12

I guess it cuts two ways.

33:14

One of which is it's got to just be

33:17

super, super difficult to have

33:19

a sense of what's going on in all these places

33:22

because it's so decentralized and there's

33:24

so many troops. I think

33:27

the second thing, again, is I

33:29

think there's just a tremendous amount of denialism

33:33

going on in the leadership

33:35

for years and years and years. They must have known were

33:38

they not shown the perversion

33:40

files? The guy was supposed to be

33:42

running the perversion files that it wasn't shown

33:44

the perversion files, so probably not.

33:47

Yeah. Maybe not. I think

33:50

the fact that it's so decentralized can

33:53

allow headquarters

33:55

to say, oh, that's

33:57

messed up, but it doesn't,

33:59

it's just...

33:59

this town here or it's this town there

34:02

or whatever, like we have

34:04

a certain amount of responsibility but for the

34:06

most part, we're giving handbooks

34:09

and outfits and a curriculum

34:11

more or less to these places

34:13

and then they've got to kind of do it themselves. So

34:16

I think they can kind of convince

34:18

themselves that it's not like

34:21

the larger model that's these individual

34:23

things that are happening and not

34:25

be introspective enough to say, you know,

34:28

if it's happening frequently, like

34:31

maybe there's something wrong with what we're doing that's

34:33

allowing this to happen, especially for

34:36

a thing like the Boy Scouts which

34:38

is basically just selling an image

34:41

that any chink in that they

34:43

could see as sort of an existential threat to

34:45

their organization. So I think it's one of those,

34:48

you know, we can't give an inch on this rather

34:51

than we have this problem, let's address

34:53

it in sort of a thoughtful,

34:55

comprehensive way and move forward.

34:59

I mean, I think it may be true. They

35:01

think that that's the kind of thing that

35:04

tarnishes their image

35:06

enough that they're no longer viable

35:08

or at least in the way they are now.

35:10

So Kevin, there were some pretty startling

35:12

cases and startling victims that we

35:14

heard from in this documentary.

35:16

Yeah, there were and they

35:18

were all sorts of ages because this goes back

35:21

decades and decades. So you have a couple people like

35:23

in their 50s and I think the youngest

35:25

one that they spoke to was Tim Crummons and

35:28

I thought that his story was just particularly heart wrenching.

35:31

As he was assaulting me, he

35:33

kept saying you're nothing and you're never

35:35

going to be nothing.

35:38

That shame became mine and

35:40

it's still there. And when something

35:43

goes wrong, it confirms in

35:46

my mind what I have always known

35:48

to be true. I am nothing and I'm

35:50

never going to be nothing.

35:52

That's what the assault is. I mean, maybe it's

35:54

because he's the youngest and this is all like really fresh,

35:56

but like this abuser really found a way to ratchet

35:59

up the trauma.

36:00

with his berating him during the abuse like

36:02

that. But I thought that his story

36:05

about like smashing the scouting

36:08

award that his father got, smashing

36:10

it and then gluing it back together

36:12

and then like sometimes smashing it again, putting it

36:14

back together, I mean it's like you can't write

36:17

that kind of symbolism. You know,

36:20

you would consider it way too corny in

36:22

a novel, but here

36:24

it's just, again, it's just so moving.

36:26

He's trying to work through this stuff and,

36:29

you know, he's really trying to put

36:32

his own pieces back together.

36:34

You know, it's funny, before we started talking

36:36

about this, I, you know, I didn't want to be

36:38

like, I actually looked up Girl Scouts and

36:41

like, and like sex abuse stuff. And I found

36:43

a bunch of cases of Girl Scouts

36:45

and sex abuse cases, most of which were

36:47

against male troop leaders, interestingly.

36:51

But there's actually a page on the Girl Scouts

36:53

website that says, you

36:55

have to talk to your girl about physical and sexual

36:57

abuse. Here's how the Girl

37:00

Scouts have, I guess, proactively taken this

37:02

stance about talking

37:04

to kids about sex abuse and like

37:06

they've actually made that part of their brain.

37:07

Who do they say kids are supposed to report to?

37:09

Well, the website says, Kevin, secrets shouldn't

37:11

be kept. Some secrets shouldn't be kept. Tell your girl

37:13

that anyone asked me to keep a secret. Is there

37:16

a red flag for any adult to ask a

37:18

child to keep information from your parents? Basically,

37:21

I mean, really, this is all about

37:23

not keeping secrets. I said it doesn't necessarily say who

37:25

you report to.

37:26

Listen,

37:28

I'm not saying the Girl Scouts are perfect, but there's

37:30

a ton of articles about how cookies are a racket. And

37:34

not a huge amount of articles about this. And

37:37

look,

37:37

their lawyer is correct that this does happen

37:39

in virtually, no, I'm going to say every

37:42

youth organization or any place

37:44

that you have, you don't have to need

37:46

a week to take children into the woods

37:48

by themselves to find a way

37:51

to prey on them. But to just say,

37:53

yeah, it also happened here. It happened there. And

37:56

we're just the ones with the deep pockets. It's kind

37:58

of like, fuck you, man. Yeah, that's like. you're really

38:00

minimizing your role in it by

38:02

just saying, oh, well, you know, we're the ones with the deep pockets

38:04

and so they're coming after us.

38:06

I want to give Laura the last word on something. Yeah.

38:08

Boy Scouts of America General Counsel, Laura, what was your impression

38:11

of him?

38:11

I think he comes across as kind of a dick.

38:14

Agreed. Sorry. Nope,

38:16

I think that's fine. I think that's

38:19

basically, he just deflects,

38:21

he offers different explanations.

38:24

You know, I said, I quoted him earlier,

38:26

if we had a problem, our society had a problem,

38:29

the Boy Scouts did not abuse these kids.

38:32

We had some bad people who got in.

38:34

At this point in the game, the

38:36

deflecting, like we're

38:38

past that, okay? Now we're in

38:40

the making amends,

38:42

doing the right thing, admitting

38:44

what happened, making compensation

38:47

available to the victims. Like we're not

38:49

still in this, like, well,

38:52

maybe it happened. So I think he just came across

38:54

as a dick. Etsy has it, everyone.

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39:21

mugs, totes, and rings? Yep,

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40:55

right, let's do what

40:55

we do.

40:57

Let's let our listeners know

40:59

should they check out Scouts Honor, the

41:01

secret files of the Boy Scouts of America. It's a documentary

41:03

on Netflix. What do you think, Laura Brekker? Thumbs up or thumbs down for this

41:05

documentary? Yeah, I'm going to go thumbs

41:07

up

41:08

with this. You know, this is actually short as far as documentaries

41:10

and shows go that we watch. And

41:15

often I am like, oh, great. It

41:18

was short. In this case, it could have probably

41:20

been longer. But I still

41:22

feel like it got the job done in terms of covering

41:26

the history of the perversion

41:28

files, the abuse, how it came

41:30

to the surface. And just,

41:33

you know, setting up that this was, you know, something

41:36

that was going on for over 100 years. And

41:38

they had some of the victims in

41:41

this documentary who really

41:43

told very compelling stories about

41:46

their experiences. And I think

41:48

this was very well done. It does, like I said, make

41:50

me sad. My son was a Scout and he had a great Scouting experience.

41:54

And it's sad to

41:56

know that this institution is so flawed

41:58

that it's not being used.

41:59

that other people did not have that experience

42:02

and that it's just really, really

42:05

unfortunate what happened and

42:07

really heartbreaking

42:07

to so many

42:10

boys that we hear about in this documentary.

42:13

Toby Ball, what do you think? Thumbs up or thumbs down for

42:15

Scout's honor?

42:16

Yeah, I'm a thumbs up. I think it's an

42:18

important topic. I think they do a

42:20

very sort of good systematic job

42:23

of exposing it, talking

42:25

about the history and giving

42:28

some, in addition to sort of

42:30

like institutional history, also giving some

42:32

case histories and focusing

42:35

on a small handful of people in their different

42:37

roles. I think they

42:39

could have dove in a little bit more

42:42

about sort of the culture

42:44

and what the Boy Scouts really represent

42:46

in this day and age, if

42:49

they represent anything and sort of why.

42:53

They do talk about this sort of backlash

42:55

against the people who are trying to expose things and

42:58

maybe jumped into that a little bit more. But

43:01

as for what they do have, yeah,

43:03

I thought it was very good. So a good thumbs

43:05

up. Kevin Flynn. Yeah,

43:08

I'm a thumbs up. This is excellent. I was

43:10

a Boy Scout. This was not my experience. But

43:13

growing up in this world and living today,

43:15

not surprised at all. But what was surprising

43:18

about this particular case, it's

43:20

not the numbers of people. That is really,

43:23

really incredible. It's

43:26

the fact, as you say in the title here, that the Scouts kept

43:29

files on all of the people it could

43:31

find out who were predators

43:34

and instances of crimes being

43:36

committed and they just kept

43:38

them and didn't do anything with them. And

43:41

especially for an organization that sort of touts

43:43

itself as doing a good turn

43:45

daily and doing things that are right

43:48

and morally good, they completely

43:50

failed in this case. And so I thought it was great.

43:52

They had some really powerful interviews with survivors.

43:55

They gave the Scouts a chance to tell

43:58

their side of it.

43:59

They took the opportunity. I don't know how well

44:02

they afforded themselves, but you can certainly

44:04

see that this is a topic

44:07

that is worth exploring because,

44:09

you know, the Boy Scouts in a way financially may get

44:12

away with this in the sense that they

44:14

just declare bankruptcy. There's nothing

44:16

left for the survivors. They become creditors and

44:18

not survivors. So in any event, this was

44:20

an eye opening documentary. Thumbs up.

44:23

Yeah,

44:23

thumbs up for me too. I'll talk less about the

44:25

documentary than about the Boy Scouts. 82,000 victims

44:28

and the victims that have come forward in

44:31

this lawsuit, right? This story,

44:33

though, it's not over for these

44:35

people, but it's over in the public eye

44:38

because like right after this happens, other news about the Boy

44:40

Scouts, oh, we're letting in girls now. We're

44:42

letting in other kids now. And it's like they're

44:45

very, very good at like sort of preserving

44:47

the sanctity of the brand. It's largely been

44:49

forgotten in the public eye and it should not be. I

44:52

will just say, whether you're a parent

44:54

or just a person in the world, any

44:57

brand or organization that claims that

44:59

it's about moral goodness, just

45:01

like run, run, man, just run at

45:04

things that are actually good are messy.

45:07

They don't claim to be perfect. Anything that

45:09

is actually good never

45:11

claims to be perfect. Ever,

45:14

ever, ever, ever. That is a lesson to take

45:16

away from this. Things that are good do not

45:18

claim morality and they do not claim

45:21

to be perfect. And Boy Scouts is a fantastic

45:24

example of that. So I'm going to say about that

45:26

big thumbs up for me for Scouts Honor.

45:28

I really think the documentary is great. I think

45:31

everybody should watch it, whether you're a parent

45:33

or not, whether you have scouting experience or not,

45:35

I think it's just super duper good. It's a great investigation,

45:38

it's revelatory and new facts emerge.

45:41

That's it for me. Big thumbs up for Scouts Honor.

45:44

That's going to do it for us. But before we go, Laura Bricker,

45:46

do we have a Cat of the Week this week?

45:50

We do,

45:51

but it is not a cat.

45:54

What kind of animal is it? It is a

45:56

bunny. Oh, I love bunny. And

45:59

this bunny is named.

45:59

Chloe and this

46:02

came from Jen and I hope I

46:04

don't butch your name

46:05

B-A-K-K-E?

46:07

Baki? Back? Back?

46:10

John Baki, longtime New Hampshire

46:12

listener.

46:13

Jen saw a post from a woman

46:15

a few weeks ago in her one of her

46:17

local social media asking if anyone

46:19

in the Rochester-Barington-Gonig area was

46:22

missing a gray lop-eared rabbit that

46:24

was hanging out in her yard. No one responded. She had

46:26

caps, no clue how to care for a rabbit

46:29

and she had just had surgery so she just kind of

46:31

let this rabbit go in and out of her garage until

46:33

Jen went to the rescue and it was

46:35

a longtime free-range in the house rabbit

46:38

owner reached out and went over and

46:40

picked up the rabbit. She called the police.

46:43

Nobody had reported this bunny missing

46:45

and it just hopped right in Jen's pet carrier

46:48

and Jen already has one in-home

46:50

free-range pet rabbit who was neutered. Couldn't

46:52

tell if this was male female went to the vet

46:55

found out it is a girl

46:58

bunny and so welcome to

47:00

the house.

47:00

Did they have a gender reveal party for the rabbit?

47:02

They did. They did have a gender reveal

47:04

and they didn't set up any titanium or

47:07

explode anything like that other New Hampshire. Is

47:10

bunny gender a construct though? That's the concept.

47:13

You know who else is a gender free-roaming

47:16

bunny in the house person is my sister

47:18

Jen in New York. Oh she's a free-roaming

47:20

bunny in the apartment person which is

47:23

whenever bunnies are like blind so like

47:26

she's like hopping into the sofa and stuff.

47:29

It's very funny. It's funny to me. I don't think it's funny

47:31

to my sister but it's

47:32

funny. Oh that poor bunny. Well also. Is

47:34

that a great life? Is it

47:35

a poor bunny? She's got a great life. Yeah

47:37

and this is Chloe is very cute. There's a beautiful

47:39

picture of Chloe out in the garden. Also

47:42

Chloe loves to eat from the garden and

47:44

is super great about using her litter box.

47:46

So I don't know it kind of makes me want to have a

47:48

bunny but I think my cats would probably try to eat a bunny.

47:51

Jen good job. They're pretty big. You

47:53

can get a big one and that's bigger than your cat just FYI.

47:56

Okay Laura brick or folks want to reach out to you and send

47:58

photos of their unusual animals

48:00

to you, whether they be free range or not. How can they

48:03

find you on social media? They

48:05

can find me at Lara Bricker on Twitter. Toeiball,

48:07

what about you? How can you be found?

48:08

At ToeiballNH. Kevin

48:11

Flynn, what about you? I'm a Kevin P. Flynn.

48:12

And if you want to reach me anywhere

48:15

and tell me that I'm wrong about the Boy Scouts

48:17

or any other institution claiming morality,

48:20

you can find me everywhere at RebLavoy.

48:23

You can also find the show everywhere at Crime

48:25

Writers On. But I really do encourage you to

48:27

join our incredible Facebook

48:30

group. Just go to Facebook. You'll find

48:32

our page. Join the group. If you know any of our

48:34

names, we'll let you into our group. I'm just going to make a quick pitch

48:36

for our group, Kevin. I know I'm belonging

48:39

to a lot of Facebook groups. Our group is the best

48:41

one on Facebook. Agreed. It's healthy. There

48:43

are no jerks. The discussions are great. People

48:45

are supportive. It's just the best people

48:48

there are awesome. Get episodes

48:50

early and ad free at Patreon.com

48:52

slash Partners in Crime Media. You'll also

48:54

get the Crime Writers On After Show Married With

48:56

Podcast, Laura Bricker's Leave It to Bricker

48:59

podcast and Toby Ball's Deep Dive

49:01

Book Club podcast. We're on YouTube, too. Our

49:03

theme song was composed and performed by Ty

49:05

Gibbons. Our line editor is the wonderful

49:08

Livvy Burdette. The executive producer

49:10

of this program is Kevin Flynn. This

49:12

show was recorded in the Treehouse Yoga Studio

49:15

above the Mockingbird Cafe in Bay

49:17

St. Louis, Mississippi studio, otherwise

49:19

known as Studio C, the closet

49:21

in our New Hampshire basement where Kevin remains

49:24

unsuccessful in teaching me the difference

49:26

between a square knot and a double clove hitch.

49:28

On behalf of all the crime writers, thanks so much for

49:30

listening. We will catch

49:33

you later.

49:34

Right over left, left over right. The

49:37

latest book is called

49:40

Under the Fucking Hell. I

49:42

have to look it up every time. Burden of a. Yeah, I'm

49:44

always like beneath underneath. Yeah,

49:47

under

49:47

a ruthless sun. Beneath a ruthless sun. Yeah,

49:50

it's.

50:06

For today's show and tell, I present

50:09

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50:11

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