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See Walmart Plus terms and conditions. That

1:25

digs into true crime, pop culture, other

1:28

podcasts. And on this episode, a

1:30

decade ago, she failed to get soldiers and

1:32

detainees to go on the record about Guantanamo

1:34

Bay. Now these same people

1:36

are ready to share their stories about the

1:38

infamous military prison. Sarah Koenig

1:41

breaks into Gitmo in season four

1:43

of Serial. Joining me to

1:45

get that done and more is true crime

1:47

author, TV journalist, and host of These

1:49

Are Their Stories podcast, My Husband and Love of

1:52

My Life, Kevin Flynn. Hello, Kevin.

1:54

Hello, Rebecca. Also with

1:56

us is private investigator, certified pet

1:58

detective, resident cat lady, and

2:00

author of the final curtain, Laura

2:02

Bricker. Hi, Laura. Hey, Rebecca. And

2:05

finally, our captain of all things cynical,

2:07

the author of the City Trilogy, host

2:10

of Stranger Rivals, and our Patreon Deep

2:12

Dive Book Club podcast host, Toby Ball.

2:14

Hello, Toby. Hello, Rebecca. So

2:17

Kevin. Yes. This is obviously

2:19

Monday's program. Obviously. What's coming up

2:21

on Thursday's show? On Thursday, we're

2:23

gonna be talking about the podcast series,

2:25

Hello, John Doe. Hello,

2:27

comma, John Doe. All

2:29

right, well, Kevin, we haven't talked about cereal in a really

2:32

long time. It's because you haven't made cereal in

2:34

a really long time. Okay. And

2:36

it's funny, because I will say this in the review

2:38

too, but like, since we've been talking about cereal for

2:40

so long, we've been talking about cereal a lot this

2:42

week in anticipation of making this podcast. So I'd like

2:44

to get right to it. Is that okay with everybody?

2:47

Yeah. Let's dig into it, Rebecca.

2:49

All right, let's do it. Leading off. But

2:51

even as Guantanamo faded as a topic of

2:54

national discussion, we kept thinking about

2:56

it, wondering what was going on down

2:58

there. We figured there has got to

3:00

be a way to do this story. In

3:03

2014, Sarah Koenig and Dana Chivas

3:05

traveled to Guantanamo Bay, hoping to

3:07

find the untold stories about the

3:09

infamous military prison. They

3:12

found many friendly soldiers willing to repeat

3:14

army talking points, but no one willing

3:16

to be candid about life at the

3:18

detention center. Biggest mission here at

3:20

Guantanamo Bay is making sure of the

3:22

safe and humane legal transparent care and

3:24

custody of our detainees. And

3:26

so, you know, this fully-folded, this

3:30

fully-folded into that humane part. We want to make

3:32

sure that we're carrying, you know, oh yeah. A

3:35

decade later, the pair reached out to those

3:37

people, many who had left the military and

3:39

were now willing to go on the record.

3:42

Many remembered Gitmo as a plum

3:45

wartime assignment in sunny Cuba, filled

3:47

with strong drinks and sexy personnel.

3:50

Others have slowly come to terms with what the

3:52

mission was and the role they played in it.

3:54

What I have realized over the intervening

3:56

two decades is that it

3:58

was punitive. because you go in with

4:01

a person and they would like not

4:03

want to talk to you. And they pray or

4:05

whatever. And then it was like, okay, you son of

4:07

a bitch. So I'm going to do this

4:09

for eight hours and I want to just make you miserable.

4:12

Koenig also spoke with former prisoners,

4:14

some with little or no connection

4:16

to the Taliban or Al Qaeda

4:18

when they were detained. They

4:20

endured mistreatment at the hands of guards and

4:22

were denied their liberty long after the justice

4:25

system cleared them for release. And

4:27

then I started breathing because, because

4:29

every breath was like so painful through

4:32

my broken ribs. Really,

4:35

really painful. And

4:38

then they were making fun because I was like

4:42

gasping for it. We're laughing.

4:44

So how that's so. In

4:47

season four of Serial Koenig and Chivas

4:49

drift away from the podcast format it

4:51

popularized 10 years ago, telling a variety

4:54

of stories week to week about Guantanamo

4:56

Bay from the people who were there.

4:59

Instead of a deep investigation into policies

5:01

and procedures at Gitmo, the hosts seek

5:03

personal unexplored stories from more than 100

5:05

of those on the ground.

5:08

The podcast promises an oral history

5:10

of the military detention center, long

5:13

cloaked in mystery and infamy. Spoiler

5:15

alert, we are going to be talking about plot

5:17

points from the first five episodes of

5:20

Serial Season Four. So if you

5:22

want to remain spoiler free, go to the estimated

5:24

time code in our show notes for our thumbs

5:26

up or thumbs down reviews. Now,

5:29

Kevin, your first note is about the

5:31

style of this podcast. And I'm curious

5:33

about your thoughts about what this podcast

5:35

actually is and what it isn't. Well,

5:38

Serial itself has never been as successful,

5:40

say, as the spotlight team. Right. It's

5:42

not known for the investigative

5:44

part of the story. It's really focused

5:46

on sort of the entertainment part and

5:49

the journey and the way that that's

5:51

all presented. Its real strength is the

5:53

storytelling. But this season so

5:55

far does feel like an extended

5:57

episode of This American Life. Which

6:00

is actually the origin of this particular thing.

6:02

This was going to come out as an

6:04

episode of This American Life by Dandys Shivis

6:06

and Sarah Kanek said, let's try to get

6:08

back to this and do this as a

6:11

whole podcast. But I'm left

6:13

wondering sort of what serial is then?

6:15

Is it just Sarah Kanek reports? Which

6:17

would be fine. When it was presented to

6:20

the world, it wasn't as a true crime

6:22

podcast. It was supposed to be one

6:24

story told week to week, meaning one story

6:26

strong enough to be told week to week

6:28

and that was the novel thing. And it's

6:31

free to be whatever it wants to be

6:33

though. The only through line in serial seems

6:35

to be Sarah. This is extra textual

6:37

but I just feel like I'm kind of like

6:39

wondering, okay, well, what is serial going to be

6:41

going forward? Well, I think it is important to

6:43

note that serial is now owned by the New York Times. So

6:46

when we're talking about this journalism, we're actually

6:48

talking about journalism that is backed by the

6:50

New York Times. It is no longer a

6:52

This American Life product. Although This American Life,

6:54

the origin story there, if you look at

6:57

the This American Life website, they still have

6:59

the description of the show, which is something

7:01

that I don't love, but it is what

7:03

it is. They say they do journalism that's

7:05

like movies for radio. And that I think

7:07

sort of speaks to some of what you're

7:09

talking about. What do you think

7:11

about the style of the podcast, Toby, and

7:13

what it is or it might not

7:15

be? Well, it seemed a little bit

7:18

like I feel like there's a little Tversky going

7:20

on in this. I don't know

7:22

whether it's amusement or whatever, but there's sort

7:24

of this whimsical aspect to their description of

7:26

some of the like relationships. I

7:28

think particularly in episodes three

7:31

and four, where it's focusing

7:33

on Ahmed and these two

7:35

interrogators and sort of this strange relationship that

7:38

they have and what they kind of get

7:40

out of it. If you put aside everything

7:42

about the reality of what was going on

7:44

with Adnan and just take a look at

7:47

the first season of Serial as just like

7:49

a piece of work, they haven't been able

7:52

to reach that, like that kind of, you

7:54

know, just enrapturing people and having people at

7:56

the end of each episode sort of re-evaluating

7:58

things and all that kind of stuff. this.

8:00

I don't feel they've ever really

8:02

recaptured that and I don't feel like they

8:04

do it this time either but

8:06

I do think this story

8:09

is a little more successful than

8:11

the ones they've had since then.

8:13

I think this is a stronger

8:15

central story than

8:17

either seasons two and especially season three.

8:20

So I guess that's kind of my take is that I

8:23

sort of feel like this is the best that

8:25

they've done since the first season but they don't

8:27

capture that same kind of

8:29

shifting fans narrative that they did

8:31

in season one. Whatever the thoughts

8:34

about how accurate they actually were

8:36

in trying to create that situation.

8:38

Okay so Lara we know that you

8:40

know there were hundreds and hundreds of people

8:43

detained at Gitmo over the years and we

8:45

know that many of them were never tied

8:48

to any you know terrorist organization

8:50

of any kind. They were never charged

8:52

a lot of them. We know

8:54

that there are only 30 people there now

8:57

with varying degrees of legal situations.

8:59

Do you think that this is a

9:01

story that is very timely right now?

9:03

I don't and I guess

9:05

that was sort of what I was wondering as

9:08

I was listening to this. I mean it was

9:10

well reported, it was interesting but I was like

9:12

is the time to talk about this like has

9:14

it come and gone and not

9:16

to diminish anything that happened

9:18

there or is still happening there

9:21

but you know we hear right in the beginning this

9:23

is a story that they tried to tell back in

9:25

like 2015 and that's

9:27

when I feel like something

9:30

like this would have hit the

9:32

mark for me a little bit more but also

9:34

you know having worked as a journalist you

9:37

always have those stories that you're like I want to tell

9:39

this story I want to tell this story but nobody will

9:41

talk to me at this point and so

9:44

you think when will I be able to

9:46

tell this story and that's what we hear

9:48

from the beginning that at that time nobody

9:50

that had worked there was willing to speak

9:52

with them and now they are.

9:54

I mean I kind of go back and forth but

9:56

part of me just felt like this season does hit

9:58

the mark more than and some others, but

10:00

at the same time, I think

10:03

what I liked about Serial Season

10:05

1 was feeling connected

10:08

to a central figure in

10:10

the narrative. And here we've

10:12

kind of go in and out with

10:15

different players, but to me there wasn't

10:17

really that central person that I was

10:19

following. You know, I don't

10:21

disagree with you. I will say that

10:23

I think a lot of the flaws

10:25

of Serial Season 1 journalistically have to

10:27

do with the format because it was

10:30

being reported in real time. And I

10:32

think that retrospectively, I think it could

10:34

have been done more responsibly and better

10:36

if it had been done in

10:38

the same style but not in real time.

10:40

I think that the process really

10:43

got in the way of the journalism being

10:45

better. That being said, I think

10:47

a way to organize this to

10:49

make it more focused and more sort

10:51

of about one thing would be perhaps

10:53

to even come up with

10:55

a framework like locations on

10:58

the base or a framework of,

11:00

you know, not to follow one character, it

11:02

could sort of follow a timeline. It's

11:05

not really following any one thing. It's kind

11:07

of jumping around in time back and forth,

11:09

back and forth and different people. And the

11:11

access is great and the voices they have

11:13

for the most part are great, but it

11:15

is sort of like angle over here, angle

11:17

over here, angle over here. And it is,

11:19

you know, the idea is that it's a

11:22

cohesive narrative. It's not doing that. If they

11:24

don't care about that, then that's also fine.

11:26

One thing, Kevin, that's interesting is that at

11:29

the very beginning of the podcast, Sarah says,

11:31

per good or for bad, and I'm not

11:33

asking you to make a judgment on that,

11:35

but she basically absolves the show of having

11:37

to do any exposition

11:39

about a bunch of stuff about Gitmo by

11:42

saying there's a ton of other reporting on

11:44

this that you can read, so we're not

11:46

going to be doing any of that. But

11:48

she does briefly explain that Gitmo was basically

11:51

invented very quickly to be

11:53

an extrajudicial place to hold people. Basically, you

11:56

know, in my own work on this and

11:58

one of the podcasts I oversee. I've

12:00

come to learn that basically officials in the United

12:02

States wanted a place to hold people where they

12:04

didn't have to follow the laws of the United

12:06

States Especially what came to be at Guantanamo Bay,

12:08

but Guantanamo Bay isn't just Gitmo, right? It's a

12:10

whole big place That's been there for a really

12:13

long time. Oh, yeah I mean, it's easy to

12:15

forget that Guantanamo is the sprawling naval base We know

12:17

it's sort of other missions and other things that they

12:19

have to do and it's located in Cuba Which

12:22

is essentially a hostile host nation. So

12:24

makes it a natural black site It

12:26

isn't like these other bases that we

12:28

have in Europe where

12:30

the host nations are going to

12:32

express alarm at the enhanced Interrogation

12:35

techniques that you know are

12:37

euphemistically used but I started to get

12:39

this sort of you know Top

12:41

gun shirtless volleyball on the beach vibe from

12:43

like all the young people stationed there. I

12:46

parried my ass off in Gitmo Everybody's

12:48

in good shape. Everybody's looking good.

12:50

Everyone's 10 and hot. Everyone's drinking

12:52

and young Massive amount

12:55

of drinking massive amount of partying I

12:57

mean just everyone was getting drunk and

12:59

getting laid and in the Puerto Rican National Guard

13:03

They had the best each party.

13:05

That's really what that

13:07

base is aside from This

13:09

very important and very high-profile aspect

13:12

of the Navy they didn't build Gitmo

13:14

to be you know Oh, we need

13:16

a place to go because we're gonna

13:19

need some day to house terrorist suspects

13:21

and hold them It was like this

13:23

is a good location to do that

13:25

And so I sent her for a second we

13:27

use it for that kind of thing before though We

13:30

used it with Haitian refugees We used

13:32

it with people with AIDS from Haiti

13:34

like we have used it to actually

13:36

detain people before So it's like

13:38

because we've used it for things before That's

13:40

how they knew it would be good for this.

13:42

So it hasn't always just been like a So,

13:46

you know, so maybe the casting of it the

13:48

location might be like you seem very obvious But

13:51

they are right that we were kind

13:53

of going ad hoc with how do

13:56

we address these security issues these military

13:58

issues? and The

14:00

fall with Gitmo is not necessarily that

14:02

it was in Guantanamo Bay. It was

14:05

what we ended up doing and the

14:07

way that we bent the justice system

14:10

in order to interrogate detainees, in

14:12

order to deprive them of their

14:15

liberty long after their cases had

14:17

been adjudicated, and essentially

14:19

get it wrong that a lot

14:21

of the people that they grabbed

14:23

up had nothing to do or low-value

14:25

targets that didn't need to be

14:27

held for two decades to find

14:29

useful information that they just never had or

14:32

even if they had it wouldn't be any

14:34

good now. So that's part of the reason

14:36

why it's so infamous. Yeah. And

14:38

Toby, there's like a complete in many ways. The

14:41

ad hoc nature of Gitmo and the

14:43

speed with which it was built and

14:45

it was built incredibly quickly. I

14:48

mean, basically they just flew in a bunch

14:50

of fencing one day, set it all up.

14:52

These actual buildings were built incredibly quickly and

14:54

it was staffed so quickly the foundation

14:57

of it had a lot

14:59

of unprofessionalism sort of baked into

15:02

it. And that sort

15:04

of comes through, I think, in the way

15:06

we hear about how prisoners were treated

15:08

from the start, about the way we hear

15:11

sort of people thought about their

15:13

roles there. And of course the

15:15

treatment of prisoners obviously baked into that too. But

15:17

what are your thoughts about that, about how sort

15:19

of people saw themselves and their roles there? It

15:21

feels like there's a lot of stuff going on,

15:23

right? Because it's during the quote unquote war on

15:25

terror. And it

15:27

feels as though these quote

15:30

unquote terrorists or enemy combatants or whatever

15:32

you want to call them, detainees, like

15:35

in the minds of a lot of people

15:37

kind of took on this sort of larger

15:39

than life danger. And I don't

15:41

remember the exact year when this was happening, but

15:43

it was like, are we going to close down

15:45

Gitmo? Well, what are we going to do with

15:47

these people? And people were like, we don't want

15:49

them on our shore, even if they're

15:51

in the supermax prison. God

15:54

only knows what they'll do. But I was kind

15:56

of struck by sort of this combination of sort

15:58

of like profound seriousness and found unseriousness

16:00

that you kind of hear about

16:02

going on and that they think

16:05

like they're they're fighting this like

16:07

existential threat and you

16:09

know they're using enhanced interrogation and

16:12

basically treating a lot of these people

16:14

like they're terrorist masterminds when in fact

16:16

they just really aren't and so there's

16:18

this like super serious part of it

16:20

which is seems kind of misguided and

16:23

then as we kind of talked about before this like

16:25

not serious thing where it's just like people

16:27

drinking and hooking up and you know all

16:30

the stuff to the point where an observant

16:32

Muslim is just like I had to find

16:34

some people to just like hang out with

16:36

and like not get involved in all this

16:38

stuff because it was so pervasive you

16:41

know in some ways it seems like

16:43

a pretty good metaphor for what was

16:45

going on like just kind of generally

16:47

which was taking seriously some things that

16:50

probably should have been taken less seriously

16:52

and then sort of blowing

16:54

off stuff where having some discipline

16:56

probably would have been advisable or

16:58

helpful or something. So Laura

17:00

at the beginning of the podcast we hear Sarah

17:02

and Dana go to Guantanamo Bay.

17:05

They're there I mean this is old tape we

17:07

hear it from like a decade ago but we

17:09

do hear this old tape and we do hear

17:12

their descriptions of what sounds like

17:14

you know it's basically they're frustrated because they can't get

17:16

this reporting them but at the same time by

17:18

the end of it they're sort of like pulled in

17:21

to the Guantanamo experience and the

17:23

idea that there is this Guantanamo

17:25

experience for visitors. We

17:28

pass up the souvenir offer on day one maybe

17:31

you caught Sarah's hesitation in the

17:33

tape because how inappropriate

17:36

but by day three oh totally getting

17:38

a bobblehead there we were shelling out

17:40

cash for Fidel Castro bobbleheads to bring

17:42

to our loved ones back home. That

17:45

was so bizarre to me you know going

17:47

into this I'm thinking of very serious topic

17:49

and we hear about how they're being escorted in

17:52

by like the public affairs officers who are like oh

17:54

you guys want to stop at this mini mart and

17:56

then you know they're talking about the gift

17:58

shops and how they they're collaborating with

18:00

Disney and you can get a t-shirt

18:02

that says Guantanamo Bay with Minnie Mouse

18:05

and palm trees and it don't

18:07

get better than this and I'm like

18:09

seriously? You know, so we

18:12

hear that and then we, you know, along

18:14

again this sort of tourist angle where they're

18:16

like stopping to look at the pretty water

18:18

as they're like walking around and Sarah's making

18:20

notes and it's like a very Sarah sort

18:22

of delivery as she's reading those notes from

18:25

back then where she's like, I'm pretending

18:27

to give a crap, naval thingies in

18:29

the water, used to tie up battleships.

18:32

It's like an act that everybody's putting on

18:34

like here we're pretending to take you on

18:36

this tour of Guantanamo but we also know

18:38

that you're here for another reason but we're

18:41

not going to talk about that because we're going

18:43

to use our like four buzzwords or whatever but

18:45

oh, here's the pretty view. I was

18:47

getting a real shrimp salad, the crab

18:49

crib vibe from that whole thing and

18:52

like oh let's buy a bobblehead doll of Castro

18:55

and I mean the fact that

18:57

multiple ones I mean I guess it's the size of a city

18:59

so yeah, I mean people rotate in and out.

19:01

Yeah, it's a bowling alley there. You

19:04

know, yeah, I mean. There's an escape

19:06

room by the way. That's the way PX is on a

19:08

lot of bases, you know, but if you want a t-shirt

19:10

that says like I enjoy a few of

19:13

my own subcultures, you don't go to Gitmo, you

19:15

can like get it from us at

19:17

places like patreon.com. You can

19:20

get it by going to our merch

19:22

shop which is crime.threadless.com. We're obviously in

19:24

the business section of the podcast now.

19:26

Is that not obvious from the music

19:28

playing beneath? I'm just saying if there's anyone

19:30

who's new listening to the podcast, this is

19:32

the business section of our podcast in which

19:34

Kevin hawks a bunch of stuff over a

19:36

very funny music bed. Go ahead, Kevin. Yeah,

19:39

right now at patreon.com/partners in crime media

19:41

and get all sorts of exclusive podcasts

19:43

including the Crime Writers on After Show.

19:45

It's a big show. It's a really

19:47

big show this week. You know what's

19:50

going on? What's going on? Well, Toby

19:52

Ball, our resident, I don't know much

19:54

about pop culture. We finally got

19:56

him to watch

19:58

the Princess. bride. So

20:01

we're going to get Toby's perspective

20:04

of the princess bride. And I think that we should probably all

20:06

try to give him an assignment. I don't

20:08

know the next pop culture thing that he

20:11

should watch by the way, kind of accidentally.

20:13

You got to listen to the podcast in

20:15

order to find out what's happening. Toby is

20:18

also going to make a return appearance on

20:20

Toby Ball's deep dive book club. Toby is

20:22

recording a new episode on May 7th and

20:24

the book is called Among the Bros. Toby,

20:27

tell us who your guests will be. My

20:29

guests will be Elon Green,

20:32

Jeff Brumley, Tony Slenniken and Beth

20:34

Ritchie. Laura Bricker also has her

20:36

own podcast. It's called Leave It

20:38

to Bricker. Laura didn't

20:40

go to Gitmo, but she did get

20:43

behind the doors of the secret Grange

20:46

in town. And I mean, they

20:48

had secret handshakes and secret passwords and stuff

20:50

like that, right? Oh, yeah, it was a

20:52

whole event. And I got in with some

20:54

some locals and I had to stand up

20:56

and introduce myself and say that I was

20:58

there because I was seriously thinking of joining.

21:00

But I got the story for y'all. It's

21:03

not like men only, is it? No,

21:05

it's not, which is what sets it apart.

21:07

It's like the masons for farmers, but women

21:09

are allowed to have leadership roles in the

21:12

Grange, unlike the masons. Wow. You

21:14

know what they call that? Collusion. Price

21:18

fixing. Okay.

21:21

Yeah, we also have married with podcasts, podcasts

21:23

in which Rebecca and I married a couple

21:25

dish out advice to married couples to parents,

21:27

to people in relationships, completely unqualified advice for

21:30

people still like to hear it. Now, if

21:32

you want to get like, again, we don't

21:34

have any bobbleheads. But if you want to

21:37

get t shirts that have our faces on

21:39

it, or the crime writers

21:41

on logo or some of our

21:43

more famous sayings, like I learned

21:45

that in cat detective school, or

21:48

it's Dirty John, not Stupid Deborah,

21:51

or as we mentioned with

21:53

Toby, I enjoy a few amongst subcultures. You

21:55

get a matter of story, the easiest way to get it

21:58

is to follow the link in our weekly news. to

22:00

sign up at crimeriderson.com, put your email address in.

22:02

Once a week, we're going to send you a

22:04

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22:07

the Week, Pet of the Week, posts

22:09

of the week, and any merch that

22:12

we have that's probably more tasteful than

22:14

Mickey Mouse, like Guantanamo Bay. Yes. All

22:17

right. Although I can't 100% guarantee

22:19

that everybody's tastes are different. That's true. Everybody's tastes

22:21

are different. Okay, Kevin, does thus

22:23

end our business section? Thus ends

22:25

the business section. All right. I'm going

22:27

to go ahead and fade that music out right now.

22:31

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22:33

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22:35

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25:02

Kevin, we need to talk about some of the voices

25:04

we have in the podcast. One of the first people

25:06

we meet is Raul who Sarah met

25:08

a decade ago on base and then she

25:10

gets a chance to talk to him today. Raul

25:13

when he was on base was following the messaging

25:15

he was given and today is a little bit

25:18

more frank about his experience in

25:20

Guantanamo and in the military. What do you

25:22

think about Raul? Poor baby Raul as he

25:24

referred to himself. Yeah, I mean the before

25:26

and after interviews show that a lot of

25:29

people I mean Raul included sort of stop

25:31

believing the shit they were shoveling. In that

25:33

moment I felt like at least

25:35

I feel right now in my heart what I wanted that

25:37

moment was just for you to take me back home with

25:39

you guys and take me off the

25:41

island. Yeah, I felt trapped. I

25:44

felt trapped because I couldn't say anything I

25:46

couldn't know I was I was now in

25:48

that moment I was now lying. You Know

25:50

the story with Raul might not have revealed

25:53

big systemic revelations about Guantanamo Bay for the

25:55

listeners, but I think the target of the

25:57

season seems to be. You know to some.

26:00

Mop all these smaller stories so then

26:02

they can do the zoom out which

26:04

is something that they like to do

26:06

in cereals. the zoom out I least.

26:08

and seasons two and three. I mean

26:10

the already said, like they're not going

26:12

to be doing history Channels less military

26:14

history channel examination of Guantanamo Bay, but

26:16

barely try to tell a sort of

26:18

these smaller stories to sort of give

26:20

people a different kind of look at

26:22

and so roles Part of that. He

26:24

was an interesting get. Well

26:26

we also hear from a

26:28

man that that podcast let's

26:30

be Anonymous Mr. X gal.

26:33

By the way as I get I guess

26:35

it was the only way they would speak

26:37

with him when you're was given a given

26:40

a role he played in the story I

26:42

don't know if I spare. I mixed feelings

26:44

about allowing his anonymity given the role he

26:46

played but I understand is the source as

26:48

a source here so we'll let that go.

26:51

For now I'm Lara He was part of

26:53

as it so called Special Projects Team Spam

26:55

at get know what to think about the

26:57

scenes that Mr. X describes and how they

26:59

did their work in this. This. Team.

27:01

So this is more when I

27:03

sort of imagined happening there. So

27:06

I can't say I'm like surprise. Although I will

27:08

say. I. Am surprised by

27:10

that wheezy seeing that he

27:12

does. where he like basically

27:15

orchestrates. A seat

27:17

abduction of one of

27:20

the detainees. Were there

27:22

like will we know people like and sauce

27:24

when they're first caught more them when they

27:26

been sitting here for a while and it's

27:28

this guy that they've been trying to get

27:30

to like break for a while and Mr

27:33

X watches them like anything so to like

27:35

cotton candy in the way they're interrogating and

27:37

so they like take this guy on a

27:39

boat, drive him around in the dark in

27:41

and also by the way he's Mister Axis

27:43

dressed in like gone To like the Walmart

27:46

of Get Now to Get. A costume for

27:48

the sake of dukson. C Drive I'm I'm I'm

27:50

a little. Longer and then they would he

27:52

come back to land to a new

27:54

isolated cell phone that had been altered

27:56

to be as bleak as possible, covered

27:59

in her new. Coming in he

28:01

would have no idea where he was.

28:03

He was an unknown. Like maybe it's

28:05

another country, Maybe a silence? Maybe it's

28:07

gonna move new. Know who knows Ah

28:10

by do not a good morning. I.

28:12

Mean this is like straight out of like

28:14

Central Casting which is ironic because the guy

28:16

that their kidnapping actually has written a book

28:19

and I believe at one point was made

28:21

into a movie about not mistaken. But so

28:23

they take this guy's to dislike sake island

28:25

which is actually we're just gonna timer on

28:27

take a back where came from and I'm

28:30

like. This. Is like next.

28:32

Level and the fact that like can you

28:34

just see sitting around. Like dreaming

28:36

up this elaborate ruse.

28:39

To get this detainees.

28:41

Who can fast? And then I mean

28:43

some of the other things he's doing,

28:46

like having the national anthem playing for

28:48

eight hours, writing poems for people. unlikely

28:50

this is The Stones, but also like

28:52

what does? Fuck that with my. Take

28:54

way from a cell Saga Thirteen year old

28:56

South Africa Atlanta said that I would have

28:58

come up with them when I was thirteen.

29:00

Photo here will put him in abode, would

29:02

just drive around in circles. or we also

29:04

know for ten were arabs. walks try to

29:06

get him to confess it's gonna kick ass.

29:08

Still believe that is both. Can make it

29:10

to North Africa in two hours. Of

29:15

yeah, geography man. I will say

29:17

until the to me are taken as Emmy

29:19

we heard about the Earth's Right which lead

29:21

our new about before but like these prices

29:23

were getting the sick kicked out of them

29:26

all the time. This is like and known

29:28

saying many many guards to Murray despised these

29:30

prisoners and had no respect for them and

29:32

were being them up pretty routinely intervene in

29:34

a beard save routinely their been and leopard

29:36

keenly their humiliated routinely enlist or x as

29:39

he was surprised. When. He saw

29:41

that this prisoner had then been and the

29:43

way to this interrogation of you are allowed

29:45

to do that. He was surprised me. There

29:47

was some things about this story that I

29:49

was just like man this whole idea that

29:51

you're like I'm here a year and a

29:53

psychological torture only we're totally above board like

29:55

here you know like as just like it

29:57

just smells so much bullshit listening to the

29:59

story. And I know this guy

30:01

is now saying that he's like on the

30:04

better side of it. but oh no, I

30:06

mean, I was deeply uncomfortable glistening. this story

30:08

on a couple of levels doesn't make sense.

30:11

Yeah, so I say this idea

30:13

that he would be aware that

30:15

there was brutality occurring with the

30:17

girls seems. Not believable whether he

30:19

actually thought they would be able to

30:21

stop it in certain instances when he

30:23

was trying to elicit information from somebody

30:26

had some larger plan to did not

30:28

involve physical abuse, blood or know how

30:30

that goes the our know how much

30:32

they talked about. I think how people

30:35

who are doing the a special projects

30:37

were like treated like the a lead

30:39

of the elite there so maybe he

30:41

saw people would listen to arm. But

30:44

together as he goes back to

30:46

my point of a couple points

30:48

ago which says I guess the

30:50

perception of these detainees was much

30:52

much different than what their reality

30:54

was. So. Despite the

30:57

fact that he could just

30:59

pick up somebody who's actually

31:01

like selling black market honey

31:03

and eyes and bring him

31:05

in his Vienna torture, I'm

31:07

essentially to Cc Saturday Info:

31:10

Or dented is this is haphazard

31:12

is arbitrary but in once they're

31:14

they're still working. Assumption is these

31:16

are the worst of the worst

31:18

and to be treated accordingly. in

31:21

his ghost out say that racism

31:23

in islam a phobia played a

31:25

large part in this to like

31:27

uses or other them and that's

31:29

what happens when they bring in

31:32

interpreters who are religiously and ethically

31:34

aligned with the detainees. That

31:36

did that sort of racism and his

31:38

arm a phobia is projected onto these

31:40

people who are Ashley's Us Military staffs.

31:43

Either you hear about it and you're

31:45

like this is where discipline sid come

31:47

into play and where you know commanding

31:49

officers be telling people to knock it

31:51

off And fact, I think those people

31:53

seem to have bought into a just

31:56

as much as anybody. And

31:58

and away at all. kind of a sex. Mr

32:00

acts as you feel That is how

32:02

the outside this this ecosystem that's gone

32:04

are the gods is you know I

32:07

had my things I was gonna do

32:09

and I can try intended by don't

32:11

Hurt a Body and I'm not like

32:13

it's I don't hate Muslims are arabs

32:16

said well you know your complicit in

32:18

this terrible campaign against these people who

32:20

a large numbers I'm really didn't do

32:22

any saying if they are American citizens

32:24

would be loosened our set night. Well

32:27

can and so we I get to

32:29

med story which the two part episode

32:32

rights and and other say One thing

32:34

that I feel very strongly about which

32:36

is I have an issue with reporting

32:38

that just summarily says remember this is

32:40

post Nine Eleven and we are really

32:42

scared As all muslims that points I

32:44

just wanna say like we were super

32:47

city to muslims before Nine Eleven If

32:49

you look at pop culture in the

32:51

nineties be sort of Movies made about

32:53

terror cells in the nineties are sucking

32:55

bananas is a huge suspicion. Of

32:58

Middle Eastern people, Muslims in the

33:00

Nineties in the eighties like this

33:02

fear and as other end of

33:04

Middle Eastern people and Muslims in

33:06

the Nineties and the for Nine

33:08

Eleven it was rampant to this

33:10

idea that only happened since Nine

33:12

Eleven to naturals anyway offered some

33:14

six the camp he is a

33:16

translator, he's doing his work and

33:18

there's this assumption that because he

33:20

can understand what the prisoners are

33:22

saying and he is doing his

33:24

job in a way that seems.

33:27

To me ethical and other people who are

33:29

not muslims who also speak Arabic agree that

33:31

he's doing his job and ethical way we're

33:33

of might be annoying for since there's an

33:35

assumption of course as he must be a

33:37

salute or right So we hear a story

33:39

plowed over two episodes. What do you think

33:41

of his story and the arguments are you

33:43

want me to. it's kind of sums

33:46

up america's antipathy towards muslims writ

33:48

large after nine eleven the right

33:50

it's really starts and but it

33:53

really added rocket fuel to be

33:55

antipathies as many specialists military had

33:57

any of will be recognized difference

34:00

between Sunni and Shiite Muslims when we're

34:02

talking about whether Iraq helped the Taliban,

34:04

right? It's just those two things didn't

34:06

go together. Again, this

34:09

cultural misunderstanding, these soldiers were

34:12

ready to turn on one of their own soldiers.

34:14

It just profound. It didn't matter that, you know,

34:16

he was Syrian, you know, we were at the

34:18

war with Syria, and then he was a translator

34:20

working with them. They were just ready to believe

34:23

he was a double agent. And

34:25

that feeling persisted all the way

34:27

through his prosecution where, I mean,

34:29

they even say the government is

34:31

acting in bad faith at every

34:33

turn trying to nail him for

34:35

essentially taking photographs with a disposable

34:37

camera in the wrong area. But

34:39

it is funny to me to see how Jeff,

34:43

who was his, I don't want to say interrogator, but after.

34:45

You're an interrogator. Yeah, you've called

34:47

Matt. His debriefer. Whatever

34:50

it is, like, okay, it's all said, you can

34:52

go. But first, we need to talk to you

34:54

for four or five months. Jeff really

34:57

seemed to believe his time with Ahmed was so

34:59

positive. But I mean, it

35:01

didn't it didn't seem genuine to you like

35:03

when Sarah confronted Jeff, like with the letters

35:05

from the attorney saying like, yeah, enough of

35:07

this, you're like pressuring and blah, blah, blah.

35:09

That Jeff seemed to remember it very

35:12

differently. And even though you might take somebody

35:14

to Lake Tahoe, along with their

35:17

tag along on their honeymoon and you feel

35:19

like, hey, we're doing great. Isn't this fun?

35:21

You know, we're just like we're cooperating on

35:23

this thing. We weren't just interviewing him. The

35:25

attorney doesn't mention what we spent a whole

35:28

day moving him that was exhausting. We

35:30

took care of him wherever he went. We took him

35:32

up to Tahoe. I mean, we

35:34

weren't up Tahoe beating him up and

35:36

questioning him. Yeah, I mean, to be

35:39

I understand you're like you're

35:41

annoyed by this. But I don't want

35:43

to. He couldn't possibly understand

35:45

that maybe Ahmed would see it

35:47

differently, that he would just like

35:49

to move on. And, you know,

35:51

it's this Kafka s machine that

35:53

you're in just continually depriving people

35:55

of their liberty for silly, stupid

35:57

reasons. You know, yeah. Akhmed's

36:00

story was quite something. It just was like,

36:02

this is how you get into the gears

36:04

of this machinery, it's just gonna grind you

36:07

up because no one's using any common sense.

36:09

Isn't it amazing, Lara, that Jeff didn't

36:11

even know what Akhmed did

36:13

or didn't do? He

36:16

was like, well, my understanding is that he

36:18

got himself into this trouble, you know? He

36:20

hung out with these people and he did

36:22

these things. And Sarah's like, no, he didn't.

36:24

Like, he didn't do these things at all. And

36:27

he's like, what do you mean? Like,

36:29

they don't even know what they're doing or they don't

36:31

believe it when they're told it. And this happens again

36:33

and again and again in the podcast. Like, we know

36:35

that after the Mr. X thing, there is

36:38

data that shows that torture does not work, it

36:40

does not elicit confessions, that people lie when

36:43

they're tortured to get tortured to stop. And

36:45

that then, officials, military, governments say

36:47

that that lie is the truth and that torture

36:49

works. Like, it happens over and over and over

36:51

again. But torture does not work, it does not

36:53

get confessions and it does not elicit facts, it just

36:56

does not. But then we hear that guy in the tape

36:58

saying, oh, no, no, that stuff was all true. And it

37:00

wasn't. But it's like, Jeff is just

37:02

like, he didn't know why he was doing what he

37:04

was doing. Like, what did you think of that whole

37:06

thing? Well, I think the whole Jeff part, like just

37:09

to piggyback on what was already said, was so strange

37:11

to me because, yeah, you hear what Ahmed, what happened,

37:14

where he's like, I'm taking notes by hand,

37:17

this is like prehistoric, can I please use

37:19

a laptop to take the notes? Yes, other

37:21

people are doing the same thing. He's

37:23

trying to get his throwaway disposable camera working

37:25

and there's like this random shot on

37:28

that, oh, now you've got secrets or

37:30

whatever. But then the whole thing,

37:32

like Jeff, he just felt so out of

37:34

touch, like when he calls in the phone,

37:36

they're like, oh, it's him, he's finally calling.

37:38

Like, they're like long lost friends, which

37:41

was also bizarre. But then I find

37:44

that if you are having this extended

37:47

like debrief interview with somebody for

37:49

months, don't you typically

37:51

have an idea of what you're debriefing

37:53

them from? Like, I know when I

37:55

get cases, when I do work as

37:57

a criminal investigator, I get the point,

38:00

police reports and I read them before I go

38:02

out to talk to witnesses so that I actually

38:04

know like what happened or was alleged to have

38:06

happened. Like that's the story to me

38:08

here is like where did this breakdown in

38:10

communication begin and how do

38:12

we think we're getting any actually

38:16

accurate information when the people that are out debriefing

38:18

don't even know what the hell is going on?

38:20

Do you know I mean I'm like where is

38:22

the oversight here and where is somebody saying hey

38:25

here's the one page at least just something about

38:28

what ACMED did or didn't do,

38:30

right? Yeah, so it feels like Jeff

38:32

to me is kind of like a

38:34

counter to what they were doing at

38:36

Gitmo and I think is why people

38:38

who are professional interrogators think is what

38:40

actually works which is that you create

38:42

a relationship with the person rather

38:45

than torturing them or psychologically or

38:48

physically or whatever in order to

38:50

coerce something from them that

38:53

creating a relationship sort of mutual

38:55

empathy is a better way

38:58

to get people to tell you

39:00

things that are actually true establishing

39:02

some trust. He clearly is

39:04

good at it. You know the fact that

39:06

ACMED asks him like is everything okay with

39:09

you when Jeff was going through some difficulties?

39:11

Jeff was like no one ever said that

39:14

to me before. I mean that's what you're

39:16

trying to do, right? You're trying to get a relationship

39:18

where this guy feels comfortable, he values

39:21

you, whatever and then you can kind of

39:23

try and draw out what you

39:25

want to draw out. So yeah, I

39:27

just, you know, they don't make a big deal

39:30

or if they even really mention like

39:32

the contrast but to me

39:34

it just seemed really, really stark. That

39:37

being said, like it's not super

39:39

efficient. It

39:42

took a long, long time and took a trip

39:44

to Tahoe and you know all

39:46

this stuff but you know as

39:48

opposed to Mr. X

39:50

who has a psychotic break and comes

39:52

to believe that or I

39:54

probably should say realize that what was going

39:57

on in Kipmo and what he was doing

39:59

was more about being

40:01

punitive rather than trying to

40:03

extract actual actionable information. Like

40:06

Jeff, I don't think has to look back and

40:08

have that on his conscience.

40:10

It's like the whole time I was trying to get

40:13

information and it seemed like there was

40:16

like a fair amount of

40:18

mission creep or as you were

40:20

saying, like because he's not properly briefed, he's

40:22

looking for something that in his ignorance he

40:24

believes is there but which is in fact

40:27

not. So anyway, I just

40:29

thought that was an interesting contrast but showing

40:31

how even that, even like sort of the

40:33

best practices as far as the stuff goes

40:36

can get fucked up if there's not

40:38

like the initial groundwork or people aren't

40:40

working on the right assumptions, then

40:42

you can just kind of go on and on and

40:44

on searching for something that's not there. So

40:47

Kevin. Yeah. Episode 5,

40:49

we hear about this guy Baumgartner who's

40:51

assigned to be the warden at Gitmo.

40:54

He thinks that he can apply rules

40:57

and logic and Geneva Convention being one

40:59

of the rules that he wants to

41:01

push that to its limits and then

41:03

also the logic of a warden who

41:05

sometimes negotiates with inmates to come up

41:07

with a set of standards that

41:09

will work for both sides. He believes

41:11

he can apply those kinds of things to a place that

41:13

is in its foundation

41:16

insane and shouldn't exist. And

41:18

of course, it doesn't work ultimately. What did you

41:20

think of this episode? What did you think of Baumgartner and

41:22

what did you think of sort of the treatment of this

41:24

story? Well, I'm eager to hear part

41:26

two of the warden's story. I mean,

41:29

the problems with Gitmo, primarily around the

41:31

treatment of these detainees is they're not

41:33

treated like prisoners of war. They aren't

41:35

afforded the same protections as

41:37

those captured under Geneva

41:40

Conventions. And

41:42

he comes in and like, you know, he

41:44

tries at first to, I mean, his marching

41:46

orders are quiet prison. And

41:48

you know, we've actually seen things very

41:50

recently about civilian prisons and about do

41:53

you want to have this a punitive

41:56

area or do you want to have this an

41:58

area that is secure and people are detained,

42:00

but they're treated decently and

42:02

there's, you know, prospect for

42:04

criminal rehabilitation in the

42:06

civil area. But the reason that these

42:09

guidelines were negotiated and ratified in the

42:11

Geneva Convention is because they made sense,

42:13

they were respectable. It was the kind

42:16

of thing that was to prevent

42:18

this particular kind of treatment. And

42:20

so to give them, you know,

42:22

a prisoner's counsel, which is like

42:24

what Allied POWs got in German

42:26

stalagues. Like that makes sense and

42:28

it did work for a while, but

42:30

we hear right off that it doesn't

42:33

work and that it goes really, really

42:35

badly. That's kind of a cliffhanger here

42:37

between episodes five and six where we are at the

42:39

moment we're recording this. So kudos for

42:41

thinking there's a way to do it, right? And

42:43

being the first to be thoughtful enough to try

42:45

to put some of this stuff in place, but

42:47

it's just, you know, Gitmo himself is not like

42:49

a civilian prison because it's designed for them to

42:51

never leave. And so

42:53

you can placate prisoners by helping

42:55

facilitate prayer hour, but if it's

42:58

going to be like, it doesn't

43:00

matter what you do, they're never going to let

43:02

you out of here. You know, it's

43:04

going to cause friction, it's going to destroy morale

43:06

and it's going to eventually lead to some kind

43:08

of resistance. Yeah. So I

43:10

actually found this episode problematic in a couple

43:13

of levels. So Bumgarner's story is a very

43:15

interesting illustration of what is wrong with Gitmo

43:17

period. That there's this

43:19

idea that there can be a place

43:22

that is a justice looking

43:24

place built on such an

43:26

unjust idea, right? And

43:28

Sarah tries to get us out a little bit

43:30

when we hear that argument that she has with

43:32

him where she's like, don't you understand why this

43:35

wouldn't work? Why you can't apply rules where you're

43:37

asking people just to comply when they're angry and

43:39

they're angry rightly because they should not be there.

43:41

Like a guy that was supposed to be out

43:43

seven years ago is still there or a guy

43:46

that's never been charged, hasn't been able to see

43:48

his family forever. And there's no reason for him

43:50

to be there. Like she has this argument with

43:52

him. I've been here for four years. I

43:54

haven't talked to my parents. They don't know

43:56

whether I'm dead or alive. I feel like I'm

43:59

dying. Hate the food.

44:01

I can't speak to anyone. I miss my

44:03

sisters Fuck you. I'm

44:06

not gonna do anything you asked me to do Why

44:08

would I cooperate you all I have the only power

44:10

was on a roll now and I couldn't stop But

44:13

you know, she also says these things about him. There's

44:15

this one line that really bothered me where she says

44:18

You know, she's talking about arashiti, which is the

44:20

guy he was negotiating with and she says that

44:22

you know after it kind of falls Apart she

44:24

says that his analysis is that during this time

44:26

bomb Gartner whose time made it under pressure made

44:28

a calculated move from good guy Genuinely trying to

44:30

do the right thing by the prisoners to tough

44:32

guy and then Sarah says I don't think that's

44:34

quite it I think it's more likely that while he

44:36

was at Guantanamo Bum Gartner was

44:38

always the same guy basically a reasonable guy,

44:40

but also a cop through and through for

44:43

the cops What's the problem? Just follow the

44:45

rules and logic and she's talking about the

44:47

herbs the extractions So when they would pull

44:50

the prisoners out of their cells force tubes

44:52

down their throats to feed them and it's

44:54

torture I mean, it's basically the purpose is

44:56

to break hunger strikes and feed them but

44:58

it is horrible inhumane cruel treatment And

45:01

this is like very clean

45:03

clinical cop serving perturbed language

45:05

being put on this super

45:08

inhumane horrible act and

45:10

this happens again and again and again in this episode where

45:13

it's like even when

45:15

they're negotiating for things like

45:17

Letting the guys pray and not making

45:20

horrible noises and giving them time It's

45:22

like these are basic human rights

45:24

that these guys have now and it's like it's

45:26

being treated like they're given privileges And that's never

45:28

acknowledged in the episode It's just sort of like

45:31

this guy came in and he was doing all

45:33

these things and he was negotiating with them No,

45:35

it was basically resetting the levels to what it

45:37

always should have been It's like even below what

45:40

it should have been and that's like never acknowledged

45:42

and it's like this episode is to me very very emblematic

45:46

of the problem with the fact that this

45:48

place even exists and it's to

45:50

me points to the problem of There's

45:53

plenty of other reporting about this that you can just look at

45:55

that we don't have to talk about and

45:57

this episode to me illustrative of

45:59

that Because it's like you

46:01

can't really get away with pretending all this

46:03

is normal when it's fucking not. And

46:06

to me that's right on its face in this

46:08

episode. I don't know, I found it really difficult

46:10

to listen to at many, many points. But good

46:12

on Bumgarner for being willing to come on and

46:14

talk about it. Because he does not come off

46:16

great in this episode, even as he does have

46:18

this turnaround and this realization that he's

46:20

not happy, in retrospect, telling some of these

46:22

stories. So that's where I land on that one.

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48:00

for Thumbs Down for Serial Season Four. Yeah,

48:02

I'll go thumbs up on this. When I

48:05

think about Serial, I think about, this is where

48:07

we began. And so part

48:09

of me is, I think, always harder

48:11

on Serial than other podcasts because I've

48:13

had more time to think about it

48:15

over the years. But I think there

48:17

is something comforting about listening

48:20

to the delivery style and the narration

48:22

style and the writing of a Serial

48:24

podcast, which again, we talked about. It's

48:26

like, listen to Sarah. Part of

48:28

me though, I mean, I'm going thumbs up, is

48:31

that a lot of time has passed with regard

48:33

to this particular story. And I did wonder like,

48:35

I don't know, so I'm gonna say it, what I always say,

48:37

why now? And why now is because a lot

48:39

of time has passed. So, you know,

48:41

there is reporting out there about Gitmo.

48:43

There is other media that you can

48:46

consume. If you like to

48:48

listen and actually hear from some of

48:50

the actual people that were involved as

48:52

regards to like bigger issues, then

48:55

this podcast is gonna tick that box for you. So

48:57

thumbs up. Toby Ball, what do you think?

48:59

Thumbs up or thumbs down for Serial season four? Yeah,

49:02

I'm gonna thumbs up as well. I guess I didn't

49:04

have the same problem that Lara did with the why

49:06

now, just in terms of it's still, I mean,

49:09

it's still there. And I think it's

49:11

important to kind of chronicle this

49:13

period where in many ways, we just

49:15

kind of lost our way. And I

49:18

think that's what this does pretty effectively,

49:20

showing not just the things that we

49:22

sort of already know or assume about

49:24

treatment of detainees and stuff like that,

49:26

but also how, you

49:29

know, these presumptions about Muslims, about

49:31

Arab peoples and stuff, like it leaked

49:33

out into not just the detainees, a

49:35

lot of whom, or even most of

49:37

whom shouldn't have been there, but to

49:39

people on staff who are Muslim or

49:42

Arab. And it just, it's

49:44

hard to know quite where to point your

49:46

finger in that maybe it happened so fast

49:48

or there was incompetent leadership or whatever, but

49:52

it's just, it's not the way anybody would design something

49:54

if they had a chance to like kind of think

49:56

it over. So I

49:59

think it's important. I think now

50:01

is a good time to tell it just because people

50:03

are willing to talk in a way that they weren't

50:05

before. The storytelling is

50:08

really good. Again, does

50:10

it have the same entertainment value

50:12

regardless of journalistic stuff as Serial

50:14

One? It doesn't, but I think

50:16

it does have more than two and three.

50:20

I think it's good. I found it very interesting.

50:23

Thumbs up. Kevin Flynn. Yeah,

50:25

I'm going thumbs up. Serial will always be,

50:27

it's going to be compared to Season One,

50:30

which is probably not fair. For

50:32

me, though, Serial was never about

50:34

true crime. It's about the format.

50:37

Serial, one story told week by week. It

50:40

is in the name. So this format

50:42

is kind of drifting away from that, but

50:44

what for me remains constant and that I

50:46

enjoy. And we really didn't talk about it

50:49

in the review part, is the narration of

50:51

Sarah Koenig. Stephen King

50:53

one time talked about how when

50:56

he got found out as Richard Bachman, he

50:58

talked about this one thing about how the

51:00

Beatles just wanted to slip into some club

51:02

and just pretend to be somebody else. And

51:04

then it would never work because people know

51:06

the sound of the Beatles and you can't

51:08

get away from that. And Stephen King's writing

51:10

is the same. You read it and even

51:12

though it's someone else's name there, you recognize

51:14

his writing. It's the same

51:16

as Sarah Koenig's style of narration.

51:19

It's steady. It's well done.

51:21

It's flat, but it maintains

51:23

its energy, which is more

51:25

than like when these people are trying to imitate

51:27

it, they can't do. It's more of a thrust

51:29

than a leap in elocution. And it

51:31

sings because it's married to a high level of

51:34

writing with a frequent,

51:36

surprising, casual turn of phrase.

51:38

So Serial is often imitated,

51:41

never reproduced. What is it? Often

51:44

imitated, never duplicated. It's

51:47

still a podcast that we hold to a

51:49

higher standard, but nevertheless, this

51:51

is an interesting season and while you

51:53

don't have to listen week to week, I

51:56

shall. Yeah, I can't say this is a bad podcast.

51:58

I'll give it a thumbs up. Not

52:00

a perfect thumbs up. I do definitely hold this podcast

52:03

to a very high standard. And I will tell you

52:05

exactly why I'm not giving any strong thumbs up right

52:07

now. Because there's

52:09

a lot of telling and not showing in this podcast.

52:11

I spoke about one of my issues with it in

52:13

the review. I'll tell you my other issue with it

52:15

right now. For the sake

52:18

of keeping the narrative fun,

52:21

for lack of a better word. For the sake of

52:23

keeping it tight. For the sake of keeping it like

52:25

a movie for the radio. There

52:27

are very often narrative shortcuts taken where

52:29

we know the reporting has been done

52:31

because Sarah tells us but does not

52:33

show us. So we hear for

52:35

instance that she talked to a bunch of people

52:38

who said some really interesting things. We

52:40

never hear from any of those people. And we

52:42

hear instead a very quick turn of phrase that

52:44

is a dismissive, quick confirmation that something is crazy

52:46

or something is important or something is horrible. But

52:49

in this story in particular, I

52:51

need to know that. I need to see it. A

52:54

clever quick sentence about it is not

52:56

enough for me in a story of

52:58

this import. So yeah, this

53:00

is a good podcast. The story is

53:02

important. The best parts of it for

53:04

me are the people we

53:06

hear from that are not the narrator.

53:09

Like I love hearing from the people

53:11

who are impacted by the story. Hearing

53:13

people who are unwitting characters

53:15

in the story who didn't realize that they were

53:17

participating in something that they were participating in. Those

53:19

are really interesting and new voices to

53:22

this narrative. This is one of

53:24

the biggest crimes that our country has

53:26

ever committed and is continuing to commit. And

53:29

yeah, it's a really interesting piece of journalism and

53:31

I have certain questions about it but I am

53:33

going to continue to listen to it. So yeah,

53:35

thumbs up for me for Serial Season 4. Now

53:37

it's time for my favorite part of the podcast, a little

53:39

something I like to call the Crime of

53:42

the Wake. Crime of the Wake. A

53:44

court has appointed a Belgian man of

53:46

drunk driving charges. His defense? He

53:48

has ABS, auto brewery

53:50

syndrome. The man has a

53:53

rare intestinal disorder that causes his body

53:55

to make its own alcohol. The

53:58

internal booze brew is just like that. in

54:00

beer, wine and spirits and affects

54:02

those with ABS the same way

54:04

but with milder symptoms like slurred

54:06

speech, loss of coordination and burping.

54:09

The Brewer's Police Court let him

54:11

go after the defense brought in

54:14

three doctors who all concluded the

54:16

man's claim was true. His lawyer

54:18

said it was just a coincidence,

54:20

a completely unfortunate coincidence that the

54:22

man they believed was drunk driving

54:24

also works in a brewery. So

54:27

panel if this man were to bottle and sell

54:29

the alcohol his body makes what do you think

54:31

it would be called? Laura Bricker. Something I would

54:33

not be drinking that's basically what the answer to

54:35

this question is. What do you

54:38

think Toby Ball? Bud Light. What do

54:40

you think

54:42

Kevin? Yak Daniels. Oh

54:44

my god that's not bad. Alright

54:46

so Laura Bricker folks want to reach out to you and

54:48

sell you a bottle of whatever this guy's making how can

54:51

they find you online? Don't sell

54:53

me any of this disgusting stuff at

54:55

Laura Bricker on Twitter and Instagram. Toby

54:57

Ball how can you be found on

54:59

social media? At Toby Ball NH.

55:01

Kevin Flynn what about you? I'm getting off

55:03

of Twitter but you can find me on

55:06

Facebook in our Crime Writers on Facebook discussion

55:08

group. You can follow me everywhere at Reb

55:10

LaVoy. You can also follow the show everywhere

55:12

at Crime Writers On. You can find us

55:15

on YouTube, you can find us on Reddit.

55:17

I encourage you to join our incredible community

55:19

Where Kevin Is in our Crime Writers on

55:21

Facebook discussion group. Just find us on Facebook,

55:23

hit join the group, we'll let you in

55:26

if you know any one of our names.

55:28

Get episodes early and ad free at patreon.com/partners

55:30

in crime media. You'll also get all the

55:32

other stuff we make back there more than

55:35

500 episodes right Kevin? More than 500. Our

55:37

theme song was composed and performed by

55:39

Ty Gibbons. Our line editor is the

55:41

terrific Livvy Burdette. The executive producer of

55:43

this program is Kevin Flynn. This show

55:45

was recorded in the Treehouse Yoga Studio

55:47

above the Mockingbird Cafe in Bay St.

55:50

Louis Mississippi studio otherwise known as Studio

55:52

C the closet and on a Hampshire

55:54

basement where we also break the rules

55:56

by feeding the iguanas. On behalf of

55:58

all the Crime Writers... Thanks so much for

56:00

listening. We will catch you later. Later. I

56:03

mean, we're friends on Facebook. So, yeah, I mean, it couldn't have been all that

56:05

bad. You know, they certainly have an affection. I'm friends with a lot of people

56:07

I don't like on Facebook. I

56:11

don't like it. Perfect

56:44

crime media. One

56:52

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57:04

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57:09

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57:11

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57:13

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57:15

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57:17

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