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cosi.org. It

0:29

is podcast recommendation time and this time

0:31

I am going to recommend a podcast

0:33

from one of my friends. And this

0:35

is a podcast that I would love

0:37

even if Kristen wasn't my friend but

0:39

she is. And that podcast is Murder

0:41

She Told. One of the

0:44

things I love best about Kristen's show

0:46

is that you are not going to

0:48

hear the same cases you've heard on

0:50

other podcasts. In Murder She Told, Kristen

0:53

focuses on lesser-known true crime stories generally

0:55

in New England, sometimes beyond, and they're

0:57

told from the perspective of a

1:00

victim's advocate. You will see

1:02

this most in her work on the Reeves-Johnson

1:04

case. This is a missing persons case from

1:06

Kittery, Maine. It happened in 1983 and not

1:08

only was

1:10

she given access to the case file

1:12

to make a podcast, she currently actively

1:14

works on the case as new leads

1:17

come in. But no case really hits

1:19

quite like the Danielle Bertolini case does

1:21

and that's because Danielle was Kristen's childhood

1:23

friend and she was murdered in California

1:25

in 2014. There has been no justice

1:29

in that case and Danielle's

1:32

episode features an interview with

1:34

her mother and with the lead detective on

1:36

that case. Murder She Told is an investigative

1:39

podcast that is rooted in deep

1:42

research, straightforward narratives, and the victims

1:44

and their families are at the

1:46

center of every story. You can

1:48

learn more at murdershetold.com and search

1:51

for Murder She Told now wherever

1:53

you get your podcasts. In

2:06

2012, Mickey Schunich left on her bicycle

2:08

to ride home. When she vanished,

2:10

over a thousand tips came in, but it took

2:13

two to lead to her killer. What

2:15

they later learned was Mickey wasn't his

2:17

first victim. I'm Charlie and welcome

2:19

to Crimelines. I

2:29

hope everyone's having a good week. I

2:32

wanted to give a

2:34

reminder slash announcement that I do

2:36

have a Patreon and Apple subscription

2:38

account and that allows you

2:40

to get all of the Crimelines content

2:42

ad-free and there is also bonus

2:45

content every month. Historically, those bonus

2:47

episodes have just been like regular Crimelines episodes.

2:49

What I put up there isn't really anything

2:51

different than what I would do in the

2:53

main feed. But then I had an

2:55

idea. I have talked before

2:57

about how if I made another podcast, it

3:00

would be just taking the Forensic Files episode

3:02

and getting into all the details that they

3:05

left out along the way with updates on

3:07

the cases because a lot of the convictions

3:09

ended up being appealed and more information came

3:11

out. I definitely

3:13

do not have the time to

3:16

do something that research-intensive on top

3:18

of Crimelines, but then it

3:20

occurred to me that I could just take that

3:22

show idea and make it my bonus content. So

3:25

starting in April, the Patreon and

3:27

Apple subscriber bonus content will become

3:30

its own series called Beyond the

3:32

Files. So be like Crimelines

3:34

episodes in that we'll follow the timeline

3:36

and there are going to be deep

3:38

dives, but we're going to take a

3:40

look at Forensic Files and their portrayals

3:42

specifically. If you're

3:44

already on Patreon or Apple subscriptions, you'll

3:46

see these episodes pop up just

3:48

like the bonus content always has. You

3:51

don't have to change anything or move to

3:53

a new tier because this will just take

3:56

the place of the monthly bonus content you've

3:58

always gotten. And if you're not- supporter

4:00

already and want access to Beyond the Files,

4:02

the links will be in the show notes.

4:06

I'll be up front. It is $5

4:08

USD a month to get to Beyond

4:10

the Files episodes per month, plus all

4:12

the Crimelines episodes ad-free. I

4:15

try to keep my pricing in the

4:17

affordable range because I'm not

4:19

someone who will spend $15 or

4:21

$20 a month on someone's Patreon, so

4:24

I certainly don't expect my listeners to pay

4:26

that much for mine, if that makes sense.

4:29

So with that announcement slash self-promotion

4:31

out of the way, let's get

4:33

into this week's case. This

4:35

one is a topic suggestion sent in

4:37

by Tiffany, so thank you Tiffany for

4:39

that. We are talking

4:41

about Michaela Schunich, who pretty much always

4:44

went by Mickey. She was

4:46

born in May 1990 and grew up

4:48

in Lafayette, Louisiana with an older sister

4:50

named Charlie and a younger brother named

4:52

Derek. Mickey was an

4:55

introspective person, a little quieter than her

4:57

older sister, but still funny and outgoing

4:59

in her own way. She

5:01

loved horseback riding and just animals in

5:04

general. After high school, she

5:06

decided to stay at home and go

5:08

to college locally at the University of

5:10

Louisiana at Lafayette, and

5:12

there she was studying anthropology.

5:15

Mickey was someone who generally rode her

5:17

bike everywhere she needed to go. Pretty

5:20

much anywhere in Lafayette she wanted to

5:22

be was within about 20 minutes or

5:24

so. On Friday, May 18, 2012,

5:26

Mickey was just days away from

5:30

her 22nd birthday and she went out with

5:32

friends to listen to some

5:34

live music at a place called

5:36

the Artemosphere Bistro. This is

5:38

a small venue. It's basically a house

5:41

that's been converted into an

5:43

artsy bistro, and as usual,

5:45

Mickey rode her bike. She

5:48

was there from about 10-15 at night until

5:51

1245 when she

5:53

and another friend named Brettlee left

5:55

and rode about a mile to Brettlee's

5:57

house. They hung out there and

6:00

until about 1.20 in the morning when

6:02

they decided to go get something to

6:04

eat. There are only

6:06

a few food options available at that hour

6:08

and most of them are drive-throughs, which is

6:10

one thing Mickey could not do on her

6:13

bike. So she and Brettlee used his

6:15

car to go pick up some Taco Bell and

6:17

they were seen on the security camera there at

6:19

1.24. They

6:23

then went back to Brettlee's house to

6:25

eat where they were when a friend

6:27

called Mickey on her cell phone around

6:29

1.30. They talked

6:31

for a little bit and according to Brettlee,

6:33

it was about 15 minutes

6:35

after this call that Mickey said she

6:37

needed to go. She

6:40

said she had to get some sleep because her

6:42

little brother had his high school graduation the

6:44

next morning. Mickey left at about

6:46

1.45 and because it

6:48

was about a four mile ride to her

6:51

house, she would have been

6:53

expected to get there by about 2am,

6:55

but she never made it. Initially

6:58

Mickey's parents were mostly just annoyed that

7:00

morning that she was running late getting

7:03

home in time for the graduation, so

7:05

they left without her assuming she would just meet

7:07

them there. But the ceremony

7:09

started at 11.30 and Mickey hadn't

7:11

shown. It wasn't outrageous

7:14

to think that Mickey was running late,

7:16

but not coming at all was not

7:18

like her. Hospitals

7:20

to her cell phone went straight to voicemail,

7:23

so her mom started calling around to

7:25

area hospitals to see if she

7:27

had been admitted somewhere. And

7:29

while she did that, Mickey's older sister

7:31

Charlie called Brettlee knowing that Mickey had

7:33

plans with him the night before. Brettlee

7:36

told Charlie that Mickey had left around

7:39

1.45 and mentioned how Mickey specifically said

7:41

she had to go home and get

7:43

some sleep before the graduation.

7:46

So as of 1.45am, Mickey fully intended

7:48

to be there for her brother and

7:50

she was heading home. Knowing

7:53

this and not being able to find anyone who

7:55

talked to Mickey after she left Brettlee's house, the

7:58

family called the police to report her

8:01

missing. Searches

8:03

began immediately with family, friends,

8:05

and volunteers walking every possible

8:08

path from Brettley's house to

8:10

Mickey's house in the

8:12

hopes of finding any clue as to

8:14

where she went. The

8:16

family was sure she left Brettley's because

8:18

Brettley said so and they trusted him.

8:21

The investigators however trusted no one so

8:23

they were looking into the possibility

8:26

that Brettley was lying. Brettley

8:28

was taken to the station for questioning

8:30

which started out normal enough with them

8:32

just asking what happened that night leading

8:35

up to Mickey leaving his house. But

8:38

then the questions got a little pushier.

8:40

They said things that were attempts

8:43

to get Brettley to make

8:45

some concessions. Things like, we

8:48

know accidents can happen and

8:50

maybe you panicked. Brettley

8:53

stuck to his version of

8:55

events so then the investigators

8:57

got more directly confrontational and

9:00

downright accusatory saying things like

9:02

how Brettley was probably in love with Mickey.

9:04

She was a pretty young woman, maybe

9:06

he tried something and she turned him

9:08

down and they could see how something

9:10

could have escalated. But

9:13

Brettley was adamant. He and Mickey were just

9:15

friends, had always just been friends and Mickey

9:17

was alive and well when she left his

9:19

house that night. It's

9:21

not clear if the investigators believed him after

9:24

his interview or not but they definitely believed

9:26

him when they pulled footage from cameras along

9:29

the path from his house to Mickey's. At

9:32

1.47 and 1.48 AM,

9:35

the cameras caught Mickey riding in the

9:37

direction of her house. As

9:40

they checked cameras closer to her

9:42

house, she didn't appear. So

9:45

they knew for sure Mickey had left Brettley's

9:47

house but she wouldn't have made it even

9:49

halfway home based on what they could see

9:52

on the cameras. On

9:54

May 21st, instead of

9:56

celebrating Mickey's birthday, a prayer vigil was

9:58

held in downtown downtown Lafayette that

10:01

was covered by the national media

10:03

and that helped get a lot of eyes on this case.

10:06

Elizabeth Smart, who is the face

10:08

of hope in situations like this,

10:11

spoke with the local paper, the daily

10:14

advertiser, encouraging the community

10:16

to stay optimistic. She

10:18

said that until the missing person is

10:20

found, no one should give up and

10:22

think they'll never come home. She

10:25

encouraged the family to lean on each

10:27

other's strengths so that they weren't

10:30

driven apart and lean on

10:32

strengths is exactly what they did. Mickey's

10:35

sister, Charlie, canceled her summer internship

10:37

and became the spokesperson for this

10:39

case. She was doing

10:41

everything from organizing volunteers to

10:44

doing radio interviews to making

10:46

sure the social media awareness on

10:49

the case was up to date

10:51

and accurate with the latest information.

10:54

And if you talk to any family

10:56

advocate, they will tell you that keeping social

10:58

media one up to date and too accurate

11:00

is a feat on its own. A

11:04

few days after Mickey went missing, a big

11:06

piece of information was released to the public

11:08

on this case and that was the CCTV

11:10

footage of Mickey riding her bike home that

11:12

night. This gave the public an

11:15

idea of what she was wearing and what her bike

11:17

looked like, but it also stopped

11:19

the tips and the conversation on

11:21

social media that was regarding Brettlee.

11:24

Just because someone was cleared by the police, it

11:26

didn't mean the public wasn't still saying, have they

11:29

looked into her friend, he's the last one to

11:31

see her, that seems suspicious. So

11:33

releasing this definitely quieted

11:35

those voices. They

11:37

then also released additional footage of a

11:40

pickup truck and two cars that passed

11:42

in the same area as Mickey around

11:44

the same time. They were

11:46

called possible witnesses and that was certainly

11:48

true of at least one car that

11:50

was actually going in the opposite direction.

11:52

But the truck, The truck did

11:54

seem a little suspicious. It was behind

11:57

Mickey and came through the intersection shortly

11:59

after she was. The Dead. According

12:01

to some reports, it looked like it's

12:03

brake lights came on. After it

12:06

passed by the camera. The

12:08

investigators could not get a plate number

12:10

off the truck, but from what they

12:13

could see it with a white Chevy

12:15

Silverado know this is hardly an unusual

12:17

are rarer vehicle in Southern Louisiana. However,

12:19

they were able to narrow it down

12:21

to disease seventy one model thanks to

12:24

the help from a local dealership. A

12:27

big tip came in on Saturday, May

12:29

twenty sixth. Twenty twelve a week after

12:32

Mickey. What Method? Fishermen.

12:34

And the Whiskey Bay Area sound

12:36

bite off the I Ten bridge.

12:38

He having see me extensive reports

12:40

admit his disappearance they call the

12:42

police. Showing. Turley. A photo

12:45

of the black and gold bite see

12:47

identified it as Mickey's. The.

12:49

Bike Looks like it had been l

12:51

in the swamp for a week, but

12:53

more than that, the back tire was

12:55

absolutely mangled. It. Wasn't the damage

12:57

you would get from throwing it

12:59

off the bridge? It looked more

13:01

like it had been hit, possibly

13:04

by a white Chevy Silverado. The

13:06

discovery of. The bike gave the searchers a

13:08

new area to look and Texas Aqua Search

13:11

team in to help. But.

13:13

It also made the

13:15

communities collective heart sink.

13:18

This was a good twenty five to

13:20

thirty miles from where Mickey was last

13:22

seen and in the opposite direction of

13:24

her house. She. Hadn't

13:26

gotten her by dealt their herself. In.

13:30

The early days of the search, over

13:32

a thousand tips came in about white

13:34

trucks or suspicious men. Rarely

13:36

where the tips about both, but they did

13:38

get a lead on a eighteen year old

13:40

named Rocky. He. Drove a white

13:43

truck and more than that, he was

13:45

about to go on trial for a

13:47

Dui manslaughter case. Was. A

13:49

possible he was driving around intoxicated

13:51

and hit Mickey. Now. Worried

13:53

about what that would mean for his upcoming

13:56

trial, he may have decided to get rid

13:58

of the evidence. Now this

14:00

was but one tip out of many

14:02

that were being investigated at the same

14:05

time, but this tip did

14:07

leak onto social media and it blew

14:09

up. Suddenly more

14:11

tips came in about Rocky and some

14:13

even implicated his girlfriend saying that she

14:15

was with him that night. This

14:18

was a really hot lead but so

14:21

many of the tips were

14:23

just based on what was already being put

14:25

out on social media. The

14:27

one independent tip they got, the

14:30

one that started all of this, that

14:32

was determined to be a hoax. Either

14:35

the tipster wanted attention or wanted to

14:37

cause a headache for Rocky, but what

14:39

they really did was waste investigators' time.

14:43

By early June, the major searches

14:45

had been called off. They

14:48

had covered all of the key areas they

14:50

knew to look, like around Brettley's house, the

14:52

route to Mickey's house, and

14:54

the Whiskey Bay area. They had

14:57

come up empty handed so unless there was

14:59

a major tip, there was little for them

15:01

to do. Things seemed

15:03

publicly like they were starting to slow down

15:06

but they were actually heating up thanks to

15:08

a tip that came in on June 14,

15:10

2012. Mickey

15:14

had been missing for nearly four

15:16

weeks when a Lafayette car dealership

15:18

told the police about a man

15:20

who really wanted to buy a

15:22

white Chevy Silverado Z71. He

15:26

said he owned one but it was stolen recently

15:28

and he wanted to get another. He

15:31

was insistent that it had to be that

15:33

model and it had to be white. While

15:36

he was there, the TV news came on

15:38

with a segment about Mickey's case and

15:41

the man looked visibly nervous. The

15:44

tip said that this man was

15:46

named Brandon Laverne. This

15:49

name caught investigators' attention because one,

15:51

it was a specific tip with

15:53

information connected to a known element

15:55

of the crime and

15:57

two, they had Brandon's name from

15:59

another another tip that came in

16:01

a week earlier. The information

16:03

from that tip was less directly tied to

16:06

a known element of the case, which is

16:08

why it wasn't a priority. But

16:11

that caller, someone who knew Brandon,

16:13

said that he had been acting

16:15

suspiciously since Mickey went missing. That

16:18

same weekend she went missing, Brandon

16:20

showed up with stab wounds, having

16:23

claimed he was mugged in New

16:25

Orleans, even though he had

16:27

no plans to go there. New

16:29

Orleans is two hours away from

16:32

Lafayette, so it's not

16:34

somewhere you necessarily go without

16:36

notice. So

16:38

the investigators decided to run the

16:40

history of Brandon's vehicle insurance. If

16:43

his truck was stolen and he was ready

16:45

to buy another one, he very likely got

16:47

money from the insurance company. The question

16:50

was, was his truck stolen before

16:52

or after Mickey went

16:54

missing? The investigators learned

16:57

that Brandon did in fact file a

16:59

claim on the stolen vehicle, and

17:02

on it he stated his truck was

17:04

stolen in Texas between 11pm

17:06

on May 30th and

17:08

6am on the 31st. So

17:12

not just after Mickey went missing,

17:14

but after the police publicized that

17:16

they were looking for that truck.

17:19

The truck had been found in Texas,

17:22

but it was completely burnt out. Absolutely

17:25

a shell of a truck left, and

17:27

no evidence could be

17:29

recovered. On

17:31

June 20th, the police were able to

17:34

pull Brandon's phone records from the day

17:36

before Mickey went missing until the day

17:38

after he reported his truck stolen. And

17:41

they found out that on May 18th, the

17:43

night Mickey went out with her friends, Brandon

17:46

called several numbers between 4.20pm

17:48

and 12.18am. In

17:52

looking up these numbers, they

17:54

found that they were from

17:56

advertisements for escort services. Brandon's

18:00

phone then had no activity until 8

18:03

20 in the morning when he called his fiancee. And

18:06

then there were also some calls that

18:08

weekend to medical facilities. So the police

18:10

then got a warrant for his medical

18:12

records. Brandon had

18:14

shown up on the morning of

18:16

May 19 with stab wounds to

18:19

kind of his upper back neck area, a

18:22

stab wound to his chest as well

18:24

as an injury to his hand. At

18:28

the time, the police were of course

18:30

called to the hospital to take the

18:32

report. And Brandon told multiple stories between

18:34

what he told the nurses, what

18:37

he told the police and what he told others. The

18:52

basic story was that he stopped at a gas

18:54

station to ask for directions around 3 or 3

18:57

30 in the morning. One time he

18:59

said it was a big white guy with gold

19:01

teeth that attacked him with a knife stealing his

19:03

wallet with about $40 in it.

19:06

In another version, it was actually a big

19:08

black guy and then it was three black

19:11

men. And then the hand injury was actually

19:13

not from the stabbing, but from a separate

19:15

fishing incident. And you know,

19:17

the story just never aligned. As

19:20

for which gas station Brandon was when

19:23

this happened, he was a bit fuzzy

19:25

on this. They eventually questioned

19:27

him enough to narrow it down to

19:29

an area. And they found that the

19:31

only gas station that fit all the

19:33

elements he had told them about was

19:35

one that was on South Carrollton in

19:37

New Orleans. The police went

19:39

out there to investigate and the manager

19:41

said he was unaware of anything happening

19:44

overnight. Brandon hadn't come in,

19:46

he didn't ask to use the phone to call

19:48

the police, he didn't ask for an ambulance, and

19:50

no one witnessed the attack. The

19:52

manager let the police check the security

19:55

footage, which showed nothing. The

19:57

stab wounds were non-life threatening, but the

19:59

injury... to Brandon's hand was

20:01

bad enough that he needed surgery to

20:04

repair a damaged tendon. The

20:06

surgery was supposed to happen on May

20:09

25th, but he showed up and

20:11

he had poison ivy so they postponed it

20:13

for a few days until it cleared up.

20:16

So this man was stabbed, exposed to

20:18

poison ivy like he had been in

20:20

a field or the woods. Then

20:22

he had his truck stolen and torched and all

20:24

of that happened in less

20:27

than two weeks following the disappearance of

20:29

a woman who they think he was

20:31

in proximity to. Now

20:34

they couldn't tell the license plate number on

20:36

the truck on the cameras from the early

20:38

morning of May 19th. Those

20:41

dark images are too grainy,

20:44

but they could make out the shape of

20:46

the items in the truck bed. So

20:48

they used the license plate number of

20:50

Brandon's stolen truck and tried to find

20:52

an earlier image of the truck on

20:55

traffic cameras from when the sun was

20:57

up. And they found one.

20:59

They found his truck going through an intersection

21:01

earlier on the 18th and they could clearly

21:03

see what was in the bed. And

21:05

it all matched the shapes that you

21:08

can make out in that grainy after

21:10

dark footage. So they were

21:12

sure this was Brandon's truck behind Mickey.

21:15

And now he could have just been a

21:17

witness if not for the other suspicious circumstances

21:20

around him like the stab wounds and the

21:22

stolen truck. And I

21:24

guess I haven't mentioned the other thing.

21:26

They pulled Brandon's record and learned he

21:28

was a registered sex offender. Back

21:31

in April of 1999, Brandon, who was 20

21:34

at the time, broke into the home of

21:36

someone he knew and raped her. She

21:39

said she was in bed and he

21:41

blindfolded her and bound her wrists. Brandon

21:44

initially told the police that the incident was

21:46

consensual and she had invited him over. However,

21:50

in February of 2000, Brandon

21:52

pleaded guilty to aggravated oral

21:54

sexual battery in a plea

21:56

deal and he was sentenced to

21:58

10 years in prison. of which

22:00

he would serve just over eight. His

22:04

wife, who was a couple months pregnant when

22:06

he went to prison, divorced him and moved

22:08

out of the area with their child. When

22:11

Brandon was released, he was required

22:13

to register as a sex offender.

22:16

In Louisiana at the time, due to a 2006 law,

22:20

Brandon's driver's license had to have a stamp

22:22

on it indicating that he was a

22:25

sex offender. And this stamp was

22:27

not subtle. It's not like

22:29

the little checkbox for being an organ

22:31

donor or the indicator that you need

22:33

glasses while driving. It

22:35

was orange, all capital

22:38

letters saying sex offender right

22:40

under the photograph. This

22:42

law has since been struck down, but in 2012,

22:46

Brandon would have that stamp

22:48

on his license where he should have

22:50

had it. He certainly didn't want

22:52

it on there. And he was accused of

22:55

once offering a DMV worker $500

22:58

to not print the license with the stamp on it.

23:01

And the police learned that he had

23:03

altered his license in some way to

23:06

remove it. They learned this

23:08

because they had a record of a mobile

23:10

home purchase from earlier in the year. And

23:13

the seller had photocopied his ID, which did

23:15

not have the stamp on it. Removing

23:18

the stamp was enough cause to

23:21

pull over 33 year old Brandon

23:23

Laverne and detain him, which

23:25

they did on Thursday, July 5th, 2012. He

23:30

refused to speak to the police saying he

23:32

wanted a lawyer and they

23:34

then booked him on the charges of

23:36

first degree murder and kidnapping in Mickey's

23:39

case. Shortly

23:41

after the arrest, the investigators contacted

23:43

Brandon's half sister in Texas who

23:46

lived in the same area his

23:48

truck had allegedly been stolen from.

23:51

And she decided she would go ahead and tell

23:53

the police what she knew. She

23:56

said Brandon had come to our house to visit

23:58

and told her he needed to burn. his truck

24:01

and then reported missing and that's because

24:03

he got wrapped up in something criminal

24:06

in Louisiana. It's

24:08

not clear if he said it was

24:10

weapons related but that's definitely the impression

24:12

she got from whatever it was he

24:15

did say and she agreed

24:17

to help him. She

24:19

followed him to the spot where he torched his

24:21

truck and then drove him back to her house.

24:24

Brandon then reported the truck stolen in the

24:27

morning and got a rental car before driving

24:29

back home. So

24:31

this confirmed what the investigators already suspected

24:34

and that was that Brandon was the

24:36

one who destroyed his truck and

24:38

they believed he did so to

24:41

get rid of evidence in Mickey's

24:43

case. Also after Brandon's arrest they searched

24:45

his home and his new truck and

24:48

in that new truck they found an

24:50

envelope with a Mickey's mother's

24:52

phone number written on it which was

24:54

odd. It doesn't sound

24:56

like they could find evidence that he tried to

24:58

contact the family but it showed he was to

25:00

some degree paying attention to the

25:03

case. And

25:05

then in Brandon's home they found

25:07

two wallets with identification of other

25:09

people and a suitcase with

25:11

the ID tag that was for a woman.

25:15

At this point they were wondering if

25:17

they had a serial killer on their

25:19

hands and they investigated these

25:21

people as possible victims. They

25:24

learned that the owner of one of

25:27

the wallets was already deceased and the

25:29

suitcase had been donated to Brandon after

25:31

he lost everything in a house fire

25:33

earlier in the year. That's

25:35

why he had to purchase a new mobile home

25:37

and use an altered ID to do so that

25:39

then got him picked up by the police. But

25:43

they were able to confirm that the woman who

25:45

owned the suitcase was alive and well. So

25:48

that left them with one wallet and

25:50

they were unable to locate that person.

25:52

We'll go ahead and call her Susan. They

25:55

were able to get in touch with Susan's

25:57

brother though and he said that he hadn't

26:00

seen her in a few months. She

26:02

had been living with him but they had issues

26:04

and she moved out. He still

26:06

put money in her bank account to help

26:08

her but she was not returning his calls

26:11

so he decided to stop putting money in

26:13

the account with the idea that this would

26:15

push Susan into reaching out to make contact.

26:19

But it didn't and then he found out

26:21

that she hadn't been touching the bank account.

26:24

Though I changed her name, her real

26:26

name did leak out and it's probably

26:29

a good thing it did. It's interesting

26:31

this case has a name that leaks that turned out to

26:33

be a bad thing and one that turns out to

26:35

be a good thing. Some

26:37

online sleuths took the name

26:40

of the woman, did some online searches

26:43

and they found a very brief

26:45

and somewhat obscure mention of her

26:47

working on a production in the

26:49

area that she lived in. They

26:52

passed the info on to the police who were

26:54

able to make contact and confirm that Susan was

26:56

alive and well. It turned

26:59

out her purse had been stolen so

27:01

she was a victim but not of murder. However,

27:04

it turned out there was another

27:06

murder victim in Brandon's past. When

27:10

Mickey's case went to the grand jury and Brandon

27:12

was indicted on July 18th 2012, he was also

27:17

indicted in the murder of Lisa

27:20

Pate, someone the Schunich

27:22

family had never heard of. Lisa

27:25

Pate was 34 years old in

27:28

1999 when her family last heard from her. She

27:30

was someone who lived a bit on

27:32

the fringes dealing with drug addiction so

27:35

the family wasn't entirely sure when she

27:37

was last seen. They

27:39

could place it at late June

27:41

or early July 1999. That

27:44

was about the time she stopped showing up

27:47

for visits with her minor children. Like

27:50

a lot of people dealing with

27:52

substance abuse, Lisa had a pattern

27:54

of getting sober and relapsing. Getting

27:57

sober and relapsing. She Attended

27:59

at least two. Rehabs but she couldn't

28:01

kick her habit for good. It

28:03

appears she was living in hotels at the

28:05

time of her disappearance. Leases.

28:08

Family reported her missing and had

28:10

their family attorney doing some media

28:12

pushes to ask for tips. Then

28:15

on Tuesday September, twenty first linked to

28:17

Ninety Nine. So a few months after

28:20

she went missing. A man named

28:22

Gus and a few friends were hanging out

28:24

in his backyard. He and his

28:26

girlfriend had recently moved into the

28:28

rental house and so does decided

28:30

to explore part of the overgrown

28:33

patch. Of the property. After

28:35

following a trail through that area, He

28:37

saw three boards and line on the

28:40

ground. He lifted one and saw a

28:42

school. He. Called the police

28:44

and based on Denzel comparison the

28:46

body was identified as Lisa Page.

28:49

Brandon. Ended up being a

28:51

suspect in leases case before making

28:54

even went missing. He.

28:56

Had grown up in the area and he

28:58

knew the people who had been living in

29:00

the house at the time we some went

29:02

missing. So. Before Gus and his

29:04

girlfriend had moved in, Multiple.

29:06

People said branding confessed that

29:09

he had killed her, including

29:11

inmates who serve time with

29:13

him and including someone branded

29:15

had been allegedly stocking. Since

29:17

high school. This. Woman who

29:19

we will call Jill told the police she

29:22

was. Terrified of Brand and. He

29:24

had been a bully from middle school

29:26

until he dropped out of high school.

29:29

It. Was a relief to her that he

29:31

left school and would hopefully leave her

29:33

alone. But. At some point

29:35

in jails leader teen years she won

29:37

a local beauty pageants and somehow that

29:40

just put her back on Brandon's. Radar.

29:43

She. Has made some pretty heavy

29:45

accusations against him, though I don't

29:47

see that any of this was

29:49

prosecuted or dealt with legally. She.

29:52

Said he would follow her around town. He showed

29:54

up at our house with a gun. And.

29:57

he made threatening phone calls which were

29:59

recorded and Based on the investigative report,

30:01

linked in my show notes, these

30:03

were turned over to the police at the time.

30:07

Jill obviously didn't see or hear from

30:09

him from February 2000 when

30:11

he went to prison until April 2008 when he was

30:13

released. According

30:16

to her, he showed up at her house two

30:18

days after he got out, and her

30:20

husband chased him off the property. Jill

30:23

told the police that the last time she saw Brandon

30:25

was in June of 2012, about a month after

30:28

Mickey disappeared. She was

30:30

outside with her daughter and Brandon just

30:32

showed up. She grabbed her daughter and

30:35

got in the car but the window was still

30:37

rolled down so Brandon tried

30:39

to reach in like he was going

30:41

to hug her. She

30:43

was able to drive off without incident.

30:46

Jill said over the years she heard that

30:49

Brandon had confessed to killing Lisa and

30:51

that he confessed to cutting the brake lines

30:53

on a car that she was in. There

30:56

was a crash and the other person was

30:58

killed and Jill was seriously injured. But

31:01

everything Jill knew about this was hearsay. She

31:05

didn't hear Brandon say any of these

31:07

things herself. But Brandon

31:09

was enough of a suspect in Lisa's

31:11

murder that prior to him being released

31:13

from prison in 2008, they

31:16

convened a grand jury and presented the

31:18

evidence against him for Lisa

31:20

Pate's murder. The grand jury

31:22

at that time declined to indict. So

31:25

this was the second time Lisa's

31:28

case was presented to the grand

31:30

jury and this time they did

31:32

indict 33-year-old Brandon Laverne for both

31:34

Lisa's murder and Mickey's. On

31:37

July 27th, he pleaded not

31:39

guilty in both cases and

31:41

the next hearing would not

31:43

even be scheduled until October

31:45

when the filings were due.

31:48

So both families settled in for what

31:50

they thought was going to be a

31:53

long trial process. That

31:55

all changed a week and a

31:57

half later on August 7th. police

32:00

said they had a credible tip as

32:02

to the location of Mickey Schunich's body.

32:05

And some very observant journalists noted

32:07

that Brandon had been signed out

32:09

of lockup for nine hours that

32:11

day. So before it

32:13

was officially confirmed, it was widely

32:15

assumed that Brandon had talked. About

32:19

an hour north of Lafayette, Brandon

32:21

led investigators to the woods behind

32:23

an old private cemetery. There

32:26

they found the buried remains of

32:28

Mickey Schunich. Formal

32:31

identification took a few days, but the

32:33

source of the information was her killer,

32:35

so the family knew it was her. In

32:38

a plea deal that took the death penalty

32:40

off the table, Brandon had agreed

32:42

to confess to both the murders of

32:45

Mickey Schunich and Lisa Pate, as

32:47

well as lead investigators to

32:49

the recovery of Mickey's remains.

32:53

In the case of Lisa Pate, Brandon said he

32:55

met her around June of 1999 while she was

32:59

living at a hotel. He

33:01

invited her to come stay with him, which

33:03

was a house outside of Lafayette. After

33:06

a few days together, Lisa told him that she

33:08

wanted to go visit her kids and asked if

33:11

she could take his vehicle. He

33:13

said no. So then she asked

33:15

if he would drive her back to

33:17

Lafayette, and he said no to that

33:19

as well. So

33:22

Lisa was at this house with a guy

33:24

who was refusing to bring her back to

33:26

her family, and they weren't

33:28

in a place where she could reasonably walk home.

33:31

So she waited until Brandon fell asleep

33:33

and tried to sneak out the door

33:36

with his keys, but he caught her.

33:39

In a rage, Brandon beat, strangled,

33:41

and then suffocated Lisa with

33:43

a plastic bag before hiding

33:46

her remains behind his acquaintances

33:48

house. Now Brandon's confession

33:50

did align with the evidence. Though

33:53

it was held back at the

33:55

time, Lisa's face had multiple fractures

33:58

and plastic was Found

34:00

around her skull. But.

34:02

We have to remember that this story in

34:05

the one he would tell about Nicky. A

34:07

really just as versions and in my

34:10

opinion he has motivation to downplay what

34:12

happened. In this case, he

34:14

was provoked by Lisa trying to steal

34:16

his vehicle. And. Then he

34:19

would claim a provocation of sorts

34:21

with Mickey as well. Brandon.

34:24

Said he was driving around that night

34:26

he and had been drinking. He.

34:28

Got hungry so he had it's. a fast

34:30

food restaurants. While he was

34:32

driving am playing on his phone, he

34:34

said he saw something out of the

34:37

corner of his eye and it was

34:39

Mickey on her bike. He tried

34:41

to break but he ended up hitting her

34:43

back tire. Brendan. Said he

34:45

immediately got out of his troth, apologizing

34:47

to Mickey while she was pretty upset.

34:50

Somehow, the to pretty quickly came to

34:52

an agreement not to call the police

34:54

over the incident. In his

34:57

confession, he said that he didn't want the police

34:59

called because he had a gun in the truck.

35:01

And he wasn't allowed to have a

35:03

firearm As a convicted felon, Said.

35:06

It didn't want the police because

35:08

she indicated to him that she

35:10

had. Drugs. On her. And

35:13

by drugs at most he means

35:15

part At the time though all

35:17

marijuana either medical was illegal in

35:20

Louisiana. Anyway, according to

35:22

Brand in they agreed to several it

35:24

between themselves and he offered to give

35:26

Mickey a ride home as her bike

35:28

was unavoidable. Mickey. Hesitated

35:30

to accept this ride but then decided

35:32

to go with them. So. They put

35:35

her bike in the back and she got into the

35:37

club with him. As Brand

35:39

into rove her home he said

35:41

he offered her one hundred dollars

35:43

for the damage. Mickey. Countered

35:45

that it was a five hundred dollar

35:47

bike. But. Brandon said it was just

35:49

the tire that was messed up. am one hundred.

35:51

Dollars was perfectly reasonable. The.

35:54

To started going back and forth and Mickey

35:56

finally said she was going to call the

35:58

police. Brenda. said he stopped

36:00

the truck and told her to get out, but

36:02

she refused, saying that he would just take off

36:05

with her bike in the bed of his truck.

36:08

Mickey reached for her cell phone and Brandon

36:10

said he panicked and grabbed a knife. He

36:13

told her he wasn't playing around and not to

36:15

call the cops. Brandon

36:17

said he realized at that moment that he had screwed

36:19

up by overreacting and told Mickey he was sorry and

36:21

that he'd just give her the $500 and drop her

36:23

off at home. So

36:26

he put the knife down on the console so

36:28

it was in plain view to let

36:31

Mickey know she didn't have anything to worry about.

36:34

He was about to start driving again when

36:36

Mickey sprayed him with the mace she always

36:38

carried with her. He tried to

36:40

get the can of mace away from her and she

36:43

grabbed the knife and stabbed him. He

36:45

said he got the knife away from her and stabbed

36:47

her a few times and she then

36:49

slid to the floor of the truck.

36:52

Brandon said he thought about taking her to

36:54

the hospital, but he didn't know how he was

36:57

going to explain what happened. He

36:59

checked her pulse and couldn't detect it. So

37:02

he pulled out his gun and he considered

37:04

shooting himself because he just could not face

37:06

going back to prison. The

37:09

next bit in his memory was

37:11

fuzzy. It seems he

37:13

was driving around and at one

37:15

point he tried to take Mickey's

37:17

body out to a field and

37:19

he planned to leave her along

37:21

a tree line. He

37:23

pulled over and sat there for a

37:25

second when, according to him, Mickey

37:28

popped up, stabbed

37:30

him in the chest and then

37:33

he shot her in the head. Brandon

37:36

said he was so freaked out that he just drove

37:38

to his house with Mickey's body in the truck. He

37:41

started cleaning the blood off himself and

37:43

getting changed into clean clothes. He

37:46

said that while he was doing this, he

37:48

just kept going back in the truck to

37:50

see if Mickey's body was there because he

37:52

really couldn't believe what had happened. He

37:56

said he was still contemplating suicide, but

37:58

he had one child already. and another

38:00

on the way and he couldn't go through with it.

38:04

He thought about an old cemetery he knew

38:06

about from when he was in the army

38:08

and stationed at Fort Polk, so

38:11

he grabbed a shovel and drove out

38:13

there. But because

38:15

of the wounds he had, the ones

38:17

Mickey inflicted, he couldn't dig,

38:19

so he just covered her body with

38:22

branches before going home. He

38:24

cleaned his truck and then drove back through the

38:26

area where he had hit Mickey to see if

38:28

the police had shown up. When

38:30

he didn't see anything, he went back home. Realizing

38:46

he was pretty badly injured, Brandon called a

38:49

friend and said he had been stabbed in

38:51

a fight and he put the

38:53

stabbing incident as happening in New Orleans and

38:55

he went to a hospital out there because

38:57

it gave him a bit of an alibi.

39:00

As he drove towards New Orleans, he realized he still

39:02

had Mickey's bike in the bed of his truck, so

39:04

he threw it off the bridge. A

39:08

few days after Mickey's death, Brandon went back

39:10

to where her body was in order to

39:12

bury it. When he

39:14

learned that his truck was spotted on

39:17

the CCTV, he destroyed it in Texas,

39:19

hoping the investigators in Louisiana wouldn't find

39:21

out about it. He then

39:23

wanted to buy the same exact truck and

39:25

it seems like he thought this would throw

39:27

everyone off the trail. No

39:29

one in his life would notice that he got rid

39:31

of a white truck because he

39:34

just replaced it with a nearly

39:36

identical one. And

39:38

if the police came around because of his

39:40

white truck, he could say, oh no, I

39:42

just bought it. That's

39:45

Brandon's story and while some of what

39:47

he said aligns with the evidence, there

39:49

are parts that we can't know. Like,

39:52

did he really hit Mickey

39:55

unintentionally? Did she really get

39:57

in the car with him willingly? Did

39:59

she make some? stab him while he was

40:01

about to drive her home or was

40:03

there another reason she felt the need

40:05

to defend herself? We

40:07

don't know and we can't know because the

40:09

only person who lived to tell the tale

40:11

has incentive to downplay what he did. But

40:14

when someone has killed two people and

40:17

claims some type of provocation both

40:19

times, I have to wonder

40:22

about the reliability of his statements because

40:24

most people are never provoked

40:27

to kill anyone, let alone

40:29

two times. Prior

40:31

to making his official guilty plea in

40:33

court, Brandon did have a psychological exam

40:36

to make sure he was competent to take the

40:38

steal. Most of

40:40

the report relied on Brandon's self-report where

40:43

he said he had a troubled childhood

40:45

with an abusive father and

40:47

a teenage babysitter who molested

40:49

him repeatedly when he was preschool

40:51

age. As a teenager,

40:54

he was treated for anger and depression

40:56

with a 30-day inpatient hospital

40:58

stay. The

41:00

psychologist found that Brandon was competent

41:02

to make this plea and though

41:05

he was impulsive and indulgent, he

41:07

didn't have significant mental illness.

41:11

On Friday, August 17, 2012,

41:13

Brandon Laverne pleaded guilty to

41:15

both murders and was sentenced

41:17

to life in prison. Afterwards,

41:21

Mickey's mother Nancy released

41:23

a statement saying that her courageous

41:25

child had faced down a monster

41:28

and she was in awe

41:30

of Mickey's strength in fighting him. With

41:33

Brandon having killed two women in 13

41:35

years, there were investigations into if there

41:38

were other victims either prior to Brandon

41:40

going to prison in February of 2000

41:42

or after his release

41:44

in April of 2008. And

41:48

one of those cases looked into was

41:50

that of Allie Lowitzer, a

41:52

16-year-old who went missing from Spring, Texas in 2010.

41:56

Brandon had family in that area and one

41:58

witness said Allie had been talking to someone

42:00

in a white truck on the afternoon

42:02

of her disappearance. Some

42:05

reports say that the white truck that Brandon

42:07

owned at the time matched the

42:09

partial license plate that the

42:11

tipster had remembered. Brandon

42:14

was interviewed in the case, but he denied

42:16

any involvement. He said he was

42:18

in Louisiana at the time, and this has apparently been

42:20

backed up by his employer.

42:23

Brandon didn't have the type of job that he

42:25

could just take off from unnoticed. He was working

42:27

offshore at the time. So if

42:29

he was out on an oil rig, he

42:31

would have needed a boat to have gotten

42:33

back to land. Next

42:36

month I'm going to cover Ali's case in

42:38

detail, so we'll get into the other tips

42:40

and leads in that case in

42:42

April. Brandon

42:44

has not confessed to any more

42:46

murders, and likely will not. I

42:49

say that because he has tried

42:51

to appeal his plea and sentence

42:53

repeatedly, saying he was pressured into

42:55

pleading guilty due to pretrial publicity

42:58

and the fear of the death penalty. But

43:01

the courts have continued to deny him

43:03

since he has, in their opinion, yet

43:06

to show that he has any

43:08

constitutional right that was violated. That's

43:11

the only way he can legally reverse his

43:14

situation. The most recent denial was

43:16

in 2023. Brandon's

43:19

denial in 2018, though, is the one

43:22

that has gotten the most publicity because

43:24

he attempted to escape from

43:26

Angola prison shortly after. According

43:29

to prison officials, he tried to make a run for it at

43:31

4.30 in the morning on October

43:33

15, 2018,

43:36

but he never even made it to

43:38

the fence before he was stopped without

43:40

incident. Angola

43:42

is one of those prisons that is

43:44

known for being hard to escape from.

43:46

It's not Alcatraz, but it is huge

43:48

and it has alarms that go off

43:50

any time there's an issue. And

43:53

it's also in a remote swampy area, so

43:55

even if you get outside the fence, where

43:57

are you going? After

43:59

this is escape attempt, the station KATC got

44:02

Brandon's records from Angola to see

44:04

if he's been in trouble before.

44:06

Now, getting into trouble in prison

44:08

is really easy. You can get

44:10

written up for pretty much anything,

44:12

but there was something that stood out to me

44:14

in what was reported. He got

44:17

in trouble for repeatedly trying to contact

44:19

one of the victim's family members. He

44:21

was told not to contact them, so he

44:23

sent letters to his family to ask them

44:26

to give them to the people he wasn't

44:28

supposed to be contacting. If

44:30

the victim's family doesn't want contact with

44:33

the confessed killer of their loved one,

44:35

just leave them alone. In

44:38

addition to Brandon's attempts to appeal his

44:40

guilty plea and life sentences, he did

44:42

submit several court filings for a variety

44:45

of issues. Most of

44:47

the suits were filed in 2013 and then

44:49

immediately appealed when they were denied in 2014.

44:53

There are some outside of this timeframe,

44:55

but the majority were in this block.

44:57

From late June 2013 until

45:00

early July, he filed by my count

45:02

22 lawsuits. Brandon

45:05

has an IQ of 116, which is above average. I

45:09

almost wonder if he was bored, and this

45:11

is what stimulated his brain as he adjusted

45:13

to prison. He has

45:15

attempted to sue various people connected

45:17

to the case, like investigators and

45:19

witnesses. He tried to

45:21

sue the appellate judges for civil rights

45:24

violations. And he

45:26

tried to sue a private website for civil

45:28

rights violations, except private websites aren't agents of

45:30

the state, so that didn't go anywhere. There's

45:33

only one lawsuit I really wanted to talk

45:35

about for a minute, and that is when

45:38

he sued Dateline. Dateline aired

45:40

an episode on this case called Missing

45:42

Mickey, really showcasing the work her sister

45:44

Charlie did to look for her and

45:47

how much the community rallied. But

45:49

obviously it also covered Brandon Laverne,

45:51

and he didn't like how he

45:53

was portrayed. I

45:56

of course had to double check what facts I

45:58

got from Dateline as one of my sources. against

46:00

his claims of defamation for

46:03

something to be defamatory, it has to

46:05

be untrue. So these are the things

46:07

Brandon claimed were in the Dateline episode

46:09

that were lies. The

46:11

first was the reporting on his

46:13

use of escort services. I

46:16

did not include that except to say he

46:18

was calling such services that night. And

46:20

that is according to the police document, which is

46:22

linked in my sources, so take it up with

46:25

them. The second on truth,

46:27

according to Brandon, was that Dateline claimed

46:29

he was in close pursuit of Mickey

46:31

prior to her murder. Now that

46:34

feels like an interpretation or a

46:36

characterization of the events. How

46:38

close is close? And

46:40

he claimed he wasn't pursuing her at all

46:42

and hitting her was unintentional, but that's definitely

46:44

not what everyone thinks happened. This

46:47

is a bit of a gray area. In

46:49

this episode, I decided to stick with

46:51

his confession as he told it, but

46:53

also pointing out that he

46:55

had some motivation to make himself look better.

46:58

The third complaint in this suit

47:01

was that Dateline said Brandon seduced

47:03

women and had multiple girlfriends at

47:05

the time. I left

47:07

that claim out of this episode because it was

47:10

really irrelevant to the case, in my opinion. I

47:13

used to try to shoehorn in every little

47:15

detail I learned about a case and

47:17

the people who were involved, but I've gotten a

47:19

lot better at leaving things out that

47:21

are really besides the point. I

47:24

don't know, nor do I care, how

47:26

many girlfriends Brandon had. The

47:29

fourth supposed falsehood was the

47:31

implication that because Brandon committed

47:34

the murders of two women,

47:37

that could lead one to conclude

47:39

that he killed other women. Now

47:42

this one, I did do, but it's factual

47:44

that the police looked into other potential victims

47:47

after his arrest. So I'm not

47:49

saying we can say for certainty that he killed

47:51

anyone else, but I am saying it's worth looking

47:53

into, and the police agreed. So again,

47:55

take it up with them. The

47:58

fifth allegedly defamatory statement was

48:00

the conclusion made that Mickey's

48:03

murder was brutal. This

48:05

is so subjective, and

48:08

I'll just go ahead and leave it up

48:10

to my listeners to decide if being stabbed

48:12

multiple times and then shot in the head

48:15

is brutal or not. The

48:17

sixth issue raised was that they

48:19

talked about Brandon's impairment from

48:21

drugs and or alcohol on

48:23

the night Mickey was murdered. According

48:26

to his own statement to the

48:28

police, he was drinking, so

48:31

I'm not sure where the issue is

48:33

here. If there is a complaint about

48:35

someone reporting on that, then Brandon needs

48:37

to take it up with himself. Now

48:40

the final thing he objected to was

48:42

Dateline referring to his quote, dark side.

48:45

And there really isn't much to say on this

48:47

one except Dateline's writers like to use a little

48:50

bit more flair than I do. Now

48:53

in the same suit, Brandon also accused

48:55

Dateline of FAST when they showed pictures

48:57

from his computer and his iPhone as

49:00

well as his driver's license. He was

49:02

basically saying they stole his

49:04

intellectual property and he

49:07

claimed a civil rights violation. But again,

49:09

Dateline and NBC are not government

49:11

entities. They are private companies. So that

49:14

was quickly dismissed. As

49:17

for the defamation claims, some of the

49:19

statements were connected to the case that

49:21

he pleaded guilty on. So

49:23

the court ruled that they couldn't

49:25

be defamatory until they were proven

49:27

untrue by having his conviction reversed,

49:29

which it wasn't. And

49:31

on any of the others, even

49:33

if they were untrue, the

49:36

amount they could damage

49:38

the reputation of a

49:40

convicted sex offender and twice convicted

49:42

murderer was so small. When

49:45

your reputation is essentially on the

49:47

floor, the potential damages

49:50

is so low, the amount

49:52

he'd be entitled to would be nominal. Brandon

49:56

strongly disagreed. He argued he was

49:58

entitled to 10th. $10,000 per image shown,

50:00

$500,000 for mental anguish, $1 million for libel and

50:02

slander, and

50:08

then punitive damages of $10 million.

50:13

And Dateline should have to retract the episode.

50:16

When the lower court dismissed his claim,

50:18

he did appeal, but obviously he didn't

50:20

win since I watched the episode a

50:22

full 10 years later. The

50:25

appellate court didn't even write their own

50:27

analysis when affirming the lower court's religion,

50:29

they just wrote that they accepted the previous

50:32

court's analysis as factual. The

50:34

thing with Brandon's lawsuits is

50:36

that not all of them

50:39

were frivolous or legally barred from proceeding.

50:41

Some of them actually raised a good point.

50:45

Like he said, he was denied his

50:47

CPAP machine and lockup, which is

50:49

a medical issue, and the medical care

50:51

received by inmates is something that

50:53

needs more public awareness. And

50:56

he had other things in there like

50:58

how his mail, including legal mail, was

51:00

being limited, and then there were

51:02

issues of being able to have visits with his

51:04

daughter. Those are issues

51:06

Brandon could have, if he put his mind to

51:08

it, advocated for from behind

51:10

bars and they would have helped

51:13

more people beyond himself. But

51:15

they mostly got ignored because he has

51:18

so many filings of all of these

51:20

claims and trying to sue his ex-wife

51:22

for defamation for something she said to

51:24

the police and things like that, it

51:26

got all mixed in there. And

51:29

so it got no attention. Had

51:31

he chosen to do so, if he focused up,

51:33

he could have done some good with his intelligence.

51:36

And maybe someday he will. Because

51:38

at 45 years old and with two

51:40

life sentences ahead of him, it definitely

51:42

looks like he has plenty of time

51:44

to do so. Thank

51:49

you for listening. If you want more

51:51

content, check out my other show, Crimelines

51:53

and Consequences, wherever you get your podcasts.

51:56

I also offer bonus content and ad-free

51:58

listening at patreon.com/crimelines or through the Apple

52:00

Podcast app. If you want to buy me a coffee,

52:02

the official Drink Up! crime line, you can give

52:04

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