0:02

Are. You staring at. Bryn

0:05

Business. Maybe

0:07

put on that close welcome

0:10

to Criminal. Plus I'm Phoebe

0:12

Joe The shirts with interpretive

0:14

I'm Lawrence For and we

0:17

are on Sixty Four East

0:19

in North Carolina. Were actually

0:21

passing the exit for. The

0:25

Nash Correctional Facility. Lauren and I

0:27

were there. I

0:30

don't know. about ten months ago

0:32

doing a story about Philip Snip

0:35

Fill Smith and his newspaper, The

0:37

Nash News, which is a newspaper

0:39

created in prison. And

0:42

so we went to interview Fill Smith.

0:45

At the Nash Correctional Facility and were

0:48

driving past it right now and fill

0:50

just throw me like I'm a month

0:52

ago to say that. He

0:55

they finally were able to listen to the episode.

0:57

They had to wait months and months and months

0:59

before the prison. Administration played it for them

1:01

and his he said something in an email

1:03

like a i hope I have the opportunity

1:06

to hear it a second time and and

1:08

I was really. I

1:10

never thought about that before them. Maybe he would

1:12

only get to hear at once. So

1:16

here we are coming to you

1:18

Were doing this episode of Criminal

1:20

Plus from the Road from my

1:22

car. And to make it even

1:24

more exciting, the tire pressure of

1:26

light is on on the back.

1:28

Great tires so. But

1:30

we don't really have time to stop

1:32

and check it because we're on our

1:34

way to an event and so there's

1:37

no time. So we just hope and

1:39

prayer that this tire pressure gauge is

1:41

just off for some reason. To them

1:43

in every break on the side of

1:46

the road, that's a real behind the

1:48

scenes content and. It's

1:51

funny. Lately

1:53

was thinking about Fill Smith and

1:55

not be able to listen to

1:57

the Nash News episode. It's funny.

2:00

The thing about. Just.

2:02

How difficult it's then for us.

2:07

We. Housing

2:29

after. And you think he he saw

2:31

a man and and. Try to.

2:34

See. Years later, he. Asked delusion

2:36

that I shot him and I know

2:38

nos. Still, her Not. Really

2:41

wanted to hear that up there. Is no way

2:43

for hims here. In the episode there is no. We

2:45

could just send him a link. Zeus good

2:47

listeners computer he could put

2:49

out his eyes on since.

2:52

Roberson. Have.

2:57

To go off and played him

2:59

the episode that he was a

3:01

in in Me that long songs

3:03

over the phone so that he

3:05

would hear the episode of that's

3:07

Really We To The. Stories also

3:10

times that be boring persuaded while

3:12

there's still a grocery that's. How

3:15

do we shared with were

3:18

in Nashville? North Carolina? Words

3:20

if eastern North Carolina. State.

3:28

Of soybeans and a lot of hot.

3:32

We're going to Harper, North

3:34

Carolina. One I Harper claims

3:36

to say that. One, it

3:38

has the second oldest town com and

3:40

in the United States the first thing.

3:42

Boston. And the. Com

3:47

and he's made areas in the

3:49

center of town square people with.

3:51

Public greens and grouse see would

3:54

bring your pigs, your cows and.

3:56

Has feels as praise right in

3:58

the center. How are you meeting

4:00

with leaving town not have to

4:02

have lots of land that your

4:05

family had a cow wars and

4:07

pigs and he gets to the

4:09

town com And that's one interesting

4:11

tidbit about Turbo. Second,

4:16

Tarver Else? Is it George Washington?

4:18

Actually Stop? Us tonight. We're

4:23

going star burrow because.

4:27

I've been invaded. Act

4:29

as. Hundred

4:32

Year Old Proof Club.

4:34

For the Landlords Club

4:36

surges and Nineteen Twenty

4:38

Harborough and. Every

4:40

year. This. Topic

4:45

and. Women who are in the

4:47

club. Will. Agree

4:49

on the topic for. The year and.

4:51

Then each. Individual

4:54

member of the club would be a

4:56

certain. Topic.

4:58

So let's say you were doing

5:00

monuments of the world's one would

5:02

take Coliseum one would take no

5:05

for tower in everyone. You go

5:07

off in his research it in

5:09

the reda p burn a new

5:11

come together and you present your

5:13

p for him. What you've learned.

5:17

And the refreshments. And so if you're

5:19

presenting the people, you are not hosting

5:21

the event. So we're going to Tar

5:23

Burrow because. This year.

5:27

The topic. Has

5:30

then cry. A

5:34

friend of. Aussies

5:38

you want to read them are so three of. The with the

5:40

history of the liberal arts, the war and at my

5:42

my eyesight is not what a severe. Were.

5:46

A Southerner? Be able to take me seriously

5:49

when they have classes starting next week. Know

5:53

I have six. I've literally my

5:55

vision is actually sailing and I'm

5:58

prices for six. I'm Lauren. Wearing.

6:01

Glasses her number of years and it's

6:03

dirty. Ones used in fourth grade when she cheated

6:05

on her eye. Exams to that sense

6:07

and pretended he couldn't see skipped

6:09

classes that interesting that sea sorry

6:11

him as seaborne wearing glasses. Now

6:13

she doesn't. Have a prescription.

6:15

I mean they're called reading glasses. It's

6:17

like a very normal thing that people

6:19

do and they have Fellow reading is

6:22

Curtis Reading Club since they're not for

6:24

subsistence for yes I've been were reading

6:26

glasses which I've now I think them

6:28

outgrown and span fourth grade. I wanted

6:30

sauces, I wanted braces. I want crunches

6:32

I want to see. The need is

6:34

a lot, need to fill success. So

6:39

okay, so on Feb Eighteen, Nineteen Twenty

6:41

one a small group of ladies most

6:43

the home of Miss Cc Todd to

6:45

form a litter and club called the

6:48

T and Topics Club later to be

6:50

known as a Liberal Arts Club according

6:52

to the minutes of the first meeting

6:54

object as a service for mental improvement

6:57

of it's members and social intercourse. Early

6:59

meetings included music, entertainment, reading a poetry

7:01

i can read some a month or

7:03

treats as on current events programs and

7:06

refreshments as we enjoy today City Are

7:08

you nervous? I

7:10

haven't. I mean, I grew in Chicago.

7:12

I. Have spent

7:14

a number of years now and the says. There's

7:17

no one as friendly as a southern. There's

7:21

nothing like southern hospitality. that's what they

7:23

say. And there's no one is families

7:25

and a southern woman. That's

7:29

that's what they want, a senseless things.

7:31

No, I'm not. Ah, we are in

7:33

good hands and have you ever been

7:35

of hesitating. I

7:40

don't know that and like you go you

7:42

at you every on prepare the powerpoint presentation

7:44

about a subject that interests them and and

7:46

they present some says he grew so I

7:48

went to one recently and my for I

7:50

defended his about fruit and it I just

7:52

did. Apart from a nuisance with as many.

7:56

impressive powerpoint transitions as i

7:58

could worked in And

8:00

you just sort of teach each other about something that you're

8:02

interested in. It's kind of similar. So

8:05

here we are. We're at Kingsborough Road

8:07

and we're about to get off

8:09

the highway and head to

8:11

June Cherry's house who's hosting us

8:13

for liberal arts.

8:18

Do you want to go see the town commons? Yeah. And

8:24

here it is. You're wondering what a town commons is,

8:26

Lauren. Here's a town commons. See? See

8:28

how big it is? There's this big open area. Washington

8:30

Southern Tour. President Washington spent the night April

8:32

18th, 17th, and went on the town of

8:35

Turbo. The town commons was established by 1760.

8:38

So this is Turbo Town Commons 1760. And here is

8:40

downtown. Is

8:45

that commons? Yeah, the commons.

8:48

Or common. I think you could say either. So

8:51

here it is. And now

8:53

on our way to June Cherry's. You're

8:56

getting nervous. Hello,

8:59

I'm Phoebe. Ever

9:03

since I was a little girl. Nice,

9:05

Lauren. That's

9:08

an old house, huh? Seems

9:11

like you had like a big old historic

9:13

house to fix up. Oh,

9:16

not even fixed up. It could be falling down a little bit. We're

9:22

going to be six minutes early to June Cherry's, so maybe

9:24

we'll just... On

9:28

average, how many minutes early are you? I'm

9:31

often seven or eight minutes early and I have to

9:33

park. I don't want to show up at someone's driveway

9:35

yet because that's too much of an upset. I have

9:37

to hide in a nearby parking lot

9:40

or earlier around the street and just read my

9:42

emails for a few minutes so I don't bother

9:44

people by showing up too early. Yeah, seven or

9:46

eight. Yeah, me too. But

9:50

sometimes something happens and it's like

9:52

17 minutes early. And

9:55

I try to... I

9:57

have to have a conversation myself about... What's

10:00

going on? What happened? I know. I

10:02

feel like six is a comfortable zone of early.

10:06

Oh, I don't think you can arrive at

10:08

someone's home. I'm saying arrive out front like

10:10

not out. You can't be up front. You can't come.

10:12

I know but in a parking lot of nearby.

10:15

I do feel like six is like you can get yourself

10:17

and then you can be ready. Will

10:19

you walk up to someone's door on the dot or do you? What's

10:23

the threshold there? I feel like on the dot

10:25

is kind of aggressive. It's totally

10:28

dependent on situations, the closeness of the

10:30

person. If someone's

10:32

arriving to your home, when do you look out the window? Oh,

10:39

that's interesting. I look out the window on the

10:41

dot and if I see their car arriving on

10:43

the dot,

10:45

I feel so

10:47

pleased. I really enjoy

10:50

someone who arrives if they've been

10:52

invited for five, someone who arrives

10:54

at 503. I think that is a perfect. At

10:58

the door or at the driveway? In

11:02

the door or at 503. I'm like,

11:04

oh, you feel good. Okay,

11:10

I had a big heated conversation. I was not about

11:12

this recently. When, how many minutes do you send a

11:14

text to say I'm running late? Before

11:17

you're even late. I totally agree but if you

11:19

have to answer the question philosophically, how many heat?

11:21

My friend said 10 and I was like, oh

11:23

my God. I was like, that's so late. I

11:27

don't even know. I can't even. Okay,

11:30

so here we are. We're

11:32

pulling in. Hello,

11:35

I'm Phoebe. Enough of the impressions please.

11:40

All right. Okay,

11:44

it's 334. What do we do? I can see

11:46

the driveway. Do we pull over or do we approach? When did

11:48

we say we would be here? We

11:51

said 340. Okay,

11:53

we're just gonna go. We're gonna loop around. Should

11:56

we start a liberal arts club in Durham? I

11:58

think it's a good idea. Oh. What would be your first

12:00

topic? Season. What

12:03

about like US presidential history? I

12:06

pretty much know it. Wow, look

12:08

at that huge indoor pool. What do you think

12:10

about an indoor pool? Don't like it. Don't like

12:12

it, but you never have to scoop the leaves

12:14

out. But that's a Florida thing. That is a

12:17

huge Florida thing. Yeah. I

12:19

made like frogs and snakes and alligators in

12:21

your pool in Florida. But

12:24

if you screen it in, you can enjoy

12:26

it at all times. You know, maybe

12:29

art history. Ooh, I love

12:31

this idea. So everyone

12:33

takes an artist and is able to show

12:35

their work and talk

12:38

about controversies, same, you

12:40

know. Should we set this

12:42

up? I love this idea.

12:44

Who would be the members? Me, you,

12:46

media. I think we have enough time

12:49

together. Wow, ouch. I mean,

12:51

criminals kind of like liberal arts club. When

12:54

I want to get to be in attendance, I

12:56

don't always want to be the one doing the research. Okay,

12:59

so the second loop. Wow,

13:03

not a single car, I think. So

13:05

I think on loop number three, we've got to go

13:07

in. Oh,

13:15

wait, wait, wait, no, still no cars. Oh,

13:18

one car, oh, someone's leaving. The only car

13:20

that was there is driving away. We're

13:26

going to spare you the next few laps we

13:28

made around the neighborhood and our discussion of Moleskine

13:30

notebooks. So here we

13:32

are, pulling up to June Cherry's house and getting out of

13:35

our car along with a lot of other people as

13:37

if we've just happened to arrive at that very moment.

13:41

Hi. Hey,

13:43

Lauren. You can come up there. Hello.

13:45

Another one. Okay,

13:48

really good. There we go. This

13:50

is that A.M. profile. She's our first though.

13:53

Hello, I'm a baby. And There is all.

13:55

And Nice to meet you. We

14:00

walk at all. Goal is okay. Ignoring.

14:02

Us as as sweet as ruthless. Son

14:04

around sort of and turbo always

14:07

have been arrested at home and

14:09

I guess I gazed assassin. I

14:12

think this is Ray. Said. Burrow

14:14

has his second oldest commons in

14:16

America, but it's a common common

14:18

about his. I've heard is your

14:21

favorite Aspect is a tough one

14:23

of only two remaining remaining. The

14:25

United Small Hundred and for the

14:28

original Boston and Harper Top are

14:30

pretty interesting. Sense. As some of those

14:32

houses said film on the common isn't

14:34

go in the backyard. The have a

14:36

regional center where where they have a

14:39

worker for the horse and buggy really

14:41

as they're still grandfather them so they

14:43

really want to. Keep I would

14:45

say could remove themselves as

14:47

a nice for Dns. Service

14:49

was held the. Forces. That. Are

14:59

you for having us? Whatever

15:05

she said, the bill to learn to

15:07

sit next to. Him

15:10

is his pocket so. Obsessed.

15:15

I got to talk with some a liberal. Arts Club

15:17

members before everything got started. And

15:19

learned that most of them did not listen

15:22

to podcasts. including. Criminal.

15:24

I read a lot. Nicer. I'm the

15:26

theory. As a reader, Can I do

15:28

read crime or a tie? I read

15:31

a lot of of Crime Devlin, wait,

15:33

City. And I mean you know all

15:35

those kinds of things. But end of

15:37

two, know what? I sit on? My

15:39

secret. I don't listen to podcasts. I.

15:42

Don't learn as at troops. This is

15:44

Lawrence for see concerted criminal with me.

15:48

And says that she does on me when I'm

15:50

interviewing someone she sees in the corner and pretend

15:52

she's up there is is listening to everything. you've

15:56

anymore oh i'm ask more questions of

15:58

us would you just introduce yourself Debbie

16:00

Lamb, and what else would you

16:03

like to know? Well, we were just talking

16:05

about the Liberal Arts Club and what this

16:07

club has meant to this group of women

16:09

over a hundred years. Right, and when they

16:11

talk about the origins of it, tea and

16:13

topics, I mean that's surely what we're doing,

16:15

but it's wine and topics. Do

16:19

you, Lauren and I were driving up here and

16:21

we thought, well, why can't we have a liberal

16:23

arts club? Oh, I think you

16:25

should. I think so too. It'd

16:28

be wonderful. You just start with

16:30

a few friends and set a

16:32

format and it grows from there. There

16:35

was a very nice spread of food in the

16:37

dining room, including a homemade-looking chocolate cake.

16:39

I'm pretty sure it absolutely

16:41

was homemade. And then everyone moved

16:44

into the living room and squeezed into the circle.

16:46

People were spilling out into the hallways. Everyone

16:48

was very dressed up. I was absolutely

16:51

the least dressed up. Well, thank

16:53

you very much for having us when Fay asked

16:55

a few months ago if we'd do it, but

16:58

I said absolutely. And I think it was so

17:00

wonderful that this year the topic would be crime.

17:03

I think the first thing is we

17:06

are a podcast. When

17:08

I told my father that we were starting

17:10

a podcast, he said, but Phoebe, how is

17:12

anyone going to find it? What

17:15

is a podcast? Because I'd always been in public radio.

17:17

I'd always been on the radio. I

17:21

was kind of a

17:23

producer and a guest host for a show

17:25

called The Story with Dick Gordon, which

17:29

was a national show. And that's where I met Lauren,

17:31

who had been working at NPR in Washington. And Lauren

17:33

was a producer and a director. And

17:35

we started working closely together on that show.

17:38

And when that show went off the air, I kind

17:40

of thought that they might say, Phoebe, you're the

17:42

new host. They didn't. They said

17:44

we're taking a sit. And so that night, Lauren

17:46

and I, who had started to work together, said,

17:48

well, that's OK, because now we can start our

17:51

own thing. And no one can tell

17:53

us what to do. And we were sitting there thinking, what

17:55

would we like to do? And we

17:57

thought, well,

17:59

in the end. And Lauren said, how about crime?

18:02

And I thought to myself, well, isn't that a good

18:04

idea? We're never going to run out of stories. But

18:08

it wasn't just that we wouldn't

18:10

run out of stories. But I

18:12

think that what both of us

18:14

had seen in, first off

18:16

to say, we aren't crime nuts. Crime

18:20

is great. And like all of

18:22

you probably hear, you read crime stories

18:24

sometimes. And sometimes you read a historical

18:26

fiction book about crime or truth. But it's

18:28

just part of you. It's not your whole life. And that's

18:30

for us, too. There are many things to be

18:32

interested in. Crime is one of them. It's an

18:34

interesting topic. But I think what

18:37

we realized is that a lot of

18:39

the crime reporting coverage that we were

18:41

seeing in the media really

18:44

was lacking in a couple of ways. One,

18:47

it was lacking in compassion

18:51

to those who had been impacted

18:53

by the crime. Crimes

18:55

were thought to be just entertainment.

18:57

And so you could imagine someone's

18:59

mother, son, turning

19:01

on the television or reading an article

19:03

and seeing the worst moment of their

19:06

lives splashed in the most dramatic violent

19:08

sensationalized way because it was going to

19:10

be good for ratings or it was

19:12

going to make someone buy that People

19:15

magazine. Let's talk about

19:17

the gory details first. We

19:20

thought, well, we don't want to do that.

19:22

We always need to understand that someone who's

19:24

been impacted by these crimes is potentially reading

19:27

this piece of media, whatever that might be.

19:30

The other thing we were going to try to do is

19:32

create a show where we

19:34

wouldn't necessarily judge those who

19:36

had done the bad thing,

19:38

the crime, not to just

19:41

say you're evil, you're wrong, but rather

19:43

try to figure out why someone

19:45

does something horrible. What

19:47

is it? Because we

19:50

don't think, I don't think that people

19:52

are intrinsically bad. I think that they

19:54

get themselves in horrible situations and they

19:57

do horrible things. And

19:59

what pushes someone to that level of

20:01

doing something terrible. So we were going

20:03

to look at crime in this broader

20:05

way with compassion, not to say that

20:07

we were going to give a pass

20:09

to people who've done terrible things or

20:11

don't think that there should be consequences,

20:13

but rather how do we understand this

20:15

word crime. Next

20:18

thing that we do is we take this word

20:20

crime and we blow apart what

20:22

you might think a crime was. Crime

20:25

can be funny. Crime can

20:28

be sad. Crime can

20:30

be educational. And so we would

20:32

create a show that

20:34

would push the boundaries

20:36

of that word crime. We

20:39

knew we were going to do that. And the other

20:41

thing that we were going to do is we were going

20:43

to create a show where you'd hear the subject's voice

20:45

first. So in many of

20:47

the episodes of Criminal, you never hear

20:49

my voice first. You always hear the

20:51

person's voice first. And we always

20:53

say the best episode of these podcasts

20:55

are the ones where you hear me the

20:58

least. Lauren knows that when we

21:00

have these edits, I'm always saying, get me out

21:02

of there. Get me out of there. How do

21:04

you just we don't need me to break in

21:06

right now. Let the person just tell their story.

21:09

So that's what we thought. OK, we're going to make a

21:11

show. We're going to call it criminal. We're

21:13

going to put it out there. Who knows if

21:16

anyone will listen, but we know that we'll be

21:18

making the best work that we can at

21:20

that time in 2014. There

21:23

weren't that many podcasts. No

21:26

one was really making money at podcasts. So

21:28

we didn't have to worry much. We just

21:30

thought, well, people listen. People won't listen. We'll

21:32

do great work. We'll be happy. I was

21:34

still on the radio every day. Lauren was

21:36

teaching at Duke writing. And

21:39

we just started this podcast.

21:43

Then there was a Q&A. And a woman

21:45

told us that she actually used to date

21:47

Larry Pollard, the lawyer from our

21:49

very first episode, who totally believed

21:52

in the owl theory. And

21:54

then someone else asked us what

21:57

we've learned over these past 10 years of

21:59

doing the show. about the

22:01

criminal mind. I just wonder what you might

22:03

have learned over the

22:05

years about the criminal mind. You

22:09

know, I'm more

22:12

confused about the justice

22:14

system and crime now than I

22:16

think I was before. I

22:20

don't... Lauren, you

22:22

can answer that as well. I mean, Lauren and I

22:24

started the show together. We've... yeah, did every episode. Do

22:26

you... how do you censor that? No,

22:28

I think that's right. I think I thought... I

22:31

grew up in a family of lawyers and I think I thought

22:33

I had some... I've read a

22:35

lot of true crime books, a lot of crime

22:37

novels. I think I thought I knew something about

22:39

something and after doing this for 10 years, we

22:42

don't know anything. Like, we're... It's

22:45

very humbling, honestly. You

22:47

know, that's what we think to

22:49

ourselves. Why

22:51

are we telling this story? You

22:53

know, what is... What

22:56

is our listener going to get? What

22:58

are they going to learn? Learn about the

23:00

world? Learn about human experience by

23:03

the story? And if it doesn't... if it's just

23:05

sadness, if it's just worry

23:07

or... We just say, I think

23:11

we'll skip it and we'll let someone else... we'll let

23:13

someone else cover that, you know, and... What do you

23:15

want your listeners, especially

23:19

regular listeners, what

23:21

do you think they... What

23:23

would you like them to have

23:25

come away with in general?

23:28

I think we want someone to have a greater

23:30

depth of understanding of someone or a topic. So

23:33

every episode, I want a listener to

23:36

come away with curiosity,

23:38

a deeper curiosity about something,

23:41

or maybe empathy, maybe

23:43

some empathy towards someone who they have

23:45

no connection with,

23:48

no seemingly

23:50

shared life experience. You know, I

23:52

think I say this line a lot, but criminal

23:55

is a show about crime, but for someone who

23:57

is a real true crime nut, who

23:59

really... They might listen to criminal and be

24:01

a little disappointed because I think

24:04

it's much more a show about the human experience.

24:06

We say all the time, why are we putting

24:08

in that detail? Do we

24:11

need to say the extent of how

24:13

many times a woman was stabbed? I

24:15

don't think we need to say that she was stabbed 47 times

24:17

over a period of two hours. It's

24:21

horrible enough. And so

24:23

we're trying to tow that line

24:25

of when are we just putting in a

24:27

detail to shock you more, you know? We

24:31

think about that a lot. You're

24:33

wonderful. They eat the same another hour.

24:37

You're a mostly safe refreshment. No,

24:41

Lauren might come be a

24:43

member. Okay, do you, I know this

24:45

is probably like asking someone with children who's your favorite

24:51

child, but do you and Lauren have

24:53

a favorite criminal force? We

24:56

both have different answers.

24:58

I will say I

25:00

have three favorite

25:03

episodes. My

25:08

first favorite episode is the third episode we ever

25:10

did. It's called Call Your Mom. It's

25:12

about a mother-daughter coroner team in Wyoming.

25:16

And she taught her daughter, in peeped

25:19

her daughter's interest in becoming a coroner by

25:21

putting a dead bird in a

25:23

box and watching it decay and

25:26

seeing just how decomposition happens.

25:29

The second favorite episode

25:31

is episode 23 is

25:33

an episode called Triassic Park. It's

25:35

about petrified wood theft in Arizona.

25:37

It's a very funny episode. It's

25:39

how you stop someone from stealing something even

25:42

if you find post it all over and

25:44

you guilt them, you make them feel bad like they

25:46

might be cursed. That's how you actually stop

25:48

them. And

25:51

then my other favorite is an episode

25:53

called Off Leash, which is a, I

25:56

love this episode because I love the woman so much,

25:58

Toby. The woman, like

26:00

any one of us in this room, I promise

26:02

you, she was just

26:04

a woman who liked dogs

26:07

and was working in the prisons with

26:09

dog training. She would bring

26:11

dogs into the prisons and inmates would help

26:13

train dogs. This is a common thing that

26:15

happens around the country. And

26:18

she was in

26:20

an unhappy marriage and there was an

26:22

inmate who was a really good dog

26:24

trainer and she got herself, she fell

26:26

in love with him. And

26:29

he said, well, I'm in love with

26:31

you too. If you help

26:33

me get out of here, we can,

26:35

and this woman who had had this

26:37

life with no criminal history,

26:39

nothing, helped this man escape

26:41

out of prison in a dog crate. And

26:45

she, and he clearly was just

26:47

trying to get, but I talked to her, I was

26:50

one of my favorite times ever, this woman, I

26:52

said, Toby, and she said, you know, Phoebe, I

26:55

can't tell you what happened to me. I

26:57

don't know how I could have done this,

26:59

but the way that she was able to

27:01

talk about this, you know, like, I know

27:03

it sounds crazy. I know, you know, I

27:05

lost my mind for a second. She was

27:07

just such a human about it. This wasn't

27:09

a terrible person. This is a woman who

27:11

got her over her skis, you know, and

27:13

lonely. I love that episode. Just

27:16

because I love Toby, she's self-deprecating in

27:18

a way. Those are my three.

27:20

Yeah, I'll go with off leash. Yeah, I'll take

27:22

that as my favorite. Yeah. That's

27:25

your favorite? I don't know what you talk about. He sold me. I

27:27

was like, yeah, wow. Like, who among us is there

27:30

but for the grace of God? Like, I

27:32

just was like, wow. Well, how

27:35

many times do you hear lawyers,

27:38

defense lawyers say, yes, they

27:40

did it, but it was a

27:42

momentary? Why? I

27:46

mean, I think Toby could be sitting here in

27:48

this room with us and you would just say, gosh,

27:50

Toby, I get it. I get it. I

27:53

Get it. She's not in prison.

28:00

Dot she's she's just out in

28:02

the world working. I think she's

28:04

remarried now. So yeah, I mean,

28:06

that's the wonderful thing is that

28:08

the. I'm

28:11

working on for five different fascinating stories

28:13

right now that are all since different

28:15

parts of the world's much more and

28:17

will honor drive he was on the

28:19

phone to the reporter in Zambia. it's

28:22

never dull every day difference you know

28:24

and. See. If we

28:26

don't know where you don't know or. Have you wake up

28:28

it is it will. What of? Who are we

28:30

talking to? The day you know always changes. That

28:40

are. Most

29:04

recent episode of Criminal. Usually

29:07

criminal plus members get to bonus

29:09

episodes per month dropped into their

29:12

podcast seeds, conversations between me and

29:14

more and and sometimes other specialists.

29:17

To. Like other producers

29:19

are illustrator to in Alexander is

29:21

my father. This

29:23

month while we're on tours, we're going be

29:25

putting out a bonus episode. every week

29:28

recorded from cars. And backstage.

29:30

And wherever else we can fit it in,

29:32

look out for the first one. Despite. You

29:35

can sign up for Criminal Plus

29:37

at This is criminal.com/plus or right

29:40

in your criminal seat and Apple

29:42

podcasts. Thanks very much

29:44

for your support.