0:02

This episode contains references to sexual

0:05

assault, please use discretion.

0:07

There

0:09

are those dogs that are the teeny things

0:11

that believe they're in a giant, Great

0:14

Danes body and

0:15

in some respects you

0:17

know, that that does captured

0:19

me that I can fight

0:22

off a lot, but

0:24

I am insistent on

0:26

chewing and swallowing it

0:28

down. This is Laura

0:30

Coates. she grew up in saint paul

0:32

minnesota going

0:35

to college to that you like to do

0:37

for fun then she said

0:39

she like

0:39

right imaginary speeches about

0:42

what you would have said at different moments in history

0:44

as see that in charge

0:46

after college she decided to go to law

0:49

school the man in two

0:51

thousand eight she got a job with the civil rights

0:53

the person at the department of justice much

0:56

of her work involved investigating voter

0:59

intimidation the

1:01

part of the job nor traveled

1:03

around the united states monitoring polling

1:05

places

1:07

when all across the country in those may

1:09

even cases that you traditionally think of as

1:11

you know below that sort of southern southern states

1:14

to those that are in the mid atlantic

1:16

in the west coast wherever there

1:18

were injustices regarding boating

1:20

cases and that my colleagues

1:22

there were phenomenal and the work

1:24

they do continue the be phenomenal

1:27

that over time more says except frustrating

1:30

there's a lot of red tape push

1:33

back from state election officials then

1:36

she felt like your cases weren't even getting off the ground

1:40

one of her colleagues in the civil rights division

1:42

often told war stories about a six

1:45

month detail he done with the us attorney's

1:47

office because he

1:49

spoke about it so glowingly the

1:52

more decided she wanted to get away mama

1:54

bureaucracy and get into the courtroom

1:58

a man in two thousand and eleven she was offered

2:00

a job where did you see us attorney's

2:03

office as a criminal prosecutor

2:05

then i went to my colleague expecting him

2:08

to sort of perhaps pat me on the back

2:10

to acknowledge be shared

2:12

camaraderie and experiences i was a bad have

2:15

and didn't normally jovial

2:18

very charismatic character

2:20

that he was the only

2:22

change

2:24

he told him it wasn't just for six months

2:26

like see done there was a permanent

2:28

job with a for your commitment the

2:32

remember that a colleague this blacks

2:34

stood up and closed his office door

2:37

and he had this extraordinary

2:39

graves you know facial

2:42

expression and he

2:44

was very very concerned about

2:47

the ability of anyone let

2:49

alone a black woman to

2:52

be able to handle the

2:54

stress of human misery that you would

2:56

see day in day out he

2:58

remembers he said i

3:00

don't know how to describe the just keep

3:02

coming i remember

3:04

thinking what if there's one person in

3:07

the justice system who could do something about

3:09

you and misery surely at the powerful

3:11

prosecutor why

3:13

wouldn't i use what

3:15

the had start where i was

3:18

and do what i could the do

3:20

more about it

3:27

nor took the job

3:29

early on a silver prosecutor offered

3:32

to show her how to interrogate a witness

3:35

she remembers he said let me show you how

3:37

it's done gonna give you a high

3:41

more , him down to the basement basement

3:44

says he told he what

3:46

to maintain control this

3:48

a psychological warfare the

3:51

run irrigating a black teenager named

3:54

josiah

3:56

her only guess desire for information about

3:58

someone named see the

4:00

guy i didn't know anyone named see they

4:03

went around and around and the interview

4:06

ended abruptly more

4:08

didn't understand the

4:11

done or colleague said the

4:13

other inmates will know that isn't the straight to the quarter

4:18

you don't want to be a snitch and holding trust

4:20

me laura

4:23

remembers being afraid that shows i would get hurt

4:26

chester , why

4:28

would you do that and why bring me

4:30

along

4:35

he remembered another incident where she was during

4:37

the prosecutor car thief art

4:40

for preparation she had time background

4:42

checks and other witnesses she

4:45

says it was customary trump background checks

4:47

on every once in the system the

4:50

man whose car had been stolen during

4:53

the victims background checks she

4:55

discovered that there is a warrant for his immediate deportation

4:59

the had a wife and family a full time

5:01

job and a valid like him

5:04

then in a country for twenty years more

5:08

found out about the deportation orders two

5:10

days before the trial the

5:12

knew that even though he was the victim the case

5:15

her job required to alert federal

5:17

marshals the she

5:19

didn't where she won a man

5:21

had of time he didn't have all

5:23

my sons he

5:25

emailed her boss to see if they could dismiss

5:28

the case he said now

5:32

the morning of the trials the mantis

5:34

card been stolen arrived early

5:36

prepared to testify about what had happened to him

5:40

more remember still dressed in a suit

5:43

and polished his shoes the

5:45

had no idea he was that to be arrested i'm

5:48

i'm more greeted him she could not tell

5:51

him but was about to happen ice

5:54

officials arrived and arrested a man

5:56

and made and put his hands behind his back the

5:59

more the college life the fbi

6:02

and faster laura

6:05

how the phone up to the man's year so he

6:07

could speak to his wife when

6:09

she got on the phone he said i've

6:11

been caught i love you and

6:14

a nice took him away

6:19

nor says you that i'm

6:21

not back to what holly said to her about

6:23

human misery back when she first accepted

6:26

the job

6:28

that moment i failed to

6:30

appreciate fully what

6:32

those battles of allegiance would one day

6:34

be it was that phrase

6:36

that the idea of not being able to do anything

6:39

about the misery bad

6:41

, didn't understand what she meant what he could

6:43

possibly believe what

6:45

the role the prosecutor could be if not

6:47

to have not to

6:50

or be able in some way to do

6:52

something about the bombardment

6:55

of human misery to stop it to prevent

6:58

but there was a real concern ne sais

7:00

bad maybe looking back he

7:02

wasn't even fully comfortable

7:05

at expressing with the reasons

7:07

why he thought it is

7:09

sort of as as a personal risk

7:13

looking back now that expression of face is

7:15

one that i now recognize because

7:17

it's one were very difficult

7:19

to explain what it's

7:21

like to be the

7:24

do me a black or brown person

7:26

in the justice system in a position

7:28

of power with the few that the table and

7:31

common with your lived experiences and

7:35

i'm being questioned as the

7:38

glide gasoline have you

7:40

to be an assassin in a position

7:42

where he will thank the stereotypical white

7:44

man or the man ought to be

7:48

after four years more coats

7:51

question i'm practicing

7:53

law altogether i'm

7:56

lee be judge

8:09

the question of to job as an assistant united

8:11

states attorney

8:13

more coach worked on cases involving violent

8:15

crimes act on the census drug

8:18

related offences and domestic violence

8:22

he was involved in every step from

8:24

an arrest all the way to sentencing

8:27

i think so many people have

8:29

, impression and raw condition

8:31

in some respects because of the generations

8:34

of people who been watching law order

8:37

order all had this impression that a crime

8:39

happens and arrest is made charges

8:42

brought a trial happens a conviction

8:44

or acquittal ends with and about forty

8:46

five minutes may walk down those old stairs

8:49

outside of the courthouse and very though it's all

8:51

sort of buttoned up in the end and

8:53

if it's if there's a guest celebrity star

8:56

without the one who did the crime as well things are very

8:58

obvious to people of what happens but

9:00

in reality the role of the prosecutors

9:03

not so reactive or just

9:05

in the trial world

9:08

i hadn't really understood

9:11

what the the prosecutors

9:13

role was in kind of even deciding which

9:15

cases will be charged would you talk

9:18

about the process is a screening cases

9:20

and take me through when

9:23

you were up for that rotation that duty

9:25

what you would have to do

9:27

what happens is a when somebody is

9:29

arrested for climb the

9:31

, officers try to

9:33

anticipate what they charge might be

9:36

they'll be able to have the person's held pending

9:39

either an arraignment if you pursue charges

9:41

but before that happens they bring the case

9:44

to a prosecutor's office or

9:46

the prosecutor to screen bear

9:48

arrest which means that

9:50

these are these people who need to calm before

9:53

calm judge in a timely fashion on this

9:55

day to an arraignment so that

9:57

we have sort of the speedy trial

10:00

the road protected and

10:02

a police officer will bring the case in the ice

10:04

years would happen here some paperwork i have

10:07

and you really have the moment of tell me what happened

10:10

and you're interviewing this officer to try

10:13

to get a sense of what the crime

10:15

may have done what are the anticipated

10:18

defenses it might be ways and

10:20

the viability of this particular

10:23

wrath and is are more than one person

10:25

that you can look to whose actions

10:27

can slap yeah this where the crisscross maybe

10:29

it's a fight that broke that is it clear

10:32

who the initial aggressor how

10:34

about is the victim cooperatives

10:38

and that happens within like less

10:40

than a thirty minute conversation often with

10:42

the officers all , this your gather

10:44

in your in your type in a long time said

10:46

decide what to have that what to do what

10:49

charge what maybe one charge of the rain

10:51

on with with an eye toward a grand

10:53

jury develop additional charges this

10:56

is a moment when you have to gather all

10:58

the officers notes and things that

11:01

are going to be fleeting whereas

11:03

the evidence whereas the done where is the

11:05

nice where are the giants whereas my chain

11:07

of custody to dieting eyes and

11:09

crossing keys and these

11:11

discussions these moments happen within

11:14

like i said moment wow

11:18

you paper case meaning the gonna go for

11:20

with it or did you know paper meeting

11:22

forget it this case is going nowhere

11:25

you can go ahead released the person will

11:27

be no arraignment today

11:31

north of prosecutors without an active

11:33

trials routinely rotated

11:35

through different portraits the ring

11:38

hearings for cases assigned to their colleagues

11:41

oh i'm a sack of things to do one

11:43

case came up and it was a a man

11:45

who came up who was professing

11:48

that only his innocence but that the

11:50

warrant squad had arrested the wrong

11:52

person he was not the person who

11:54

should have been standing trial for

11:57

a violent attack and a

11:59

woman with from that person had

12:01

fathered a child and

12:03

he and his counsel we were both

12:06

black men were adamant that the police

12:08

had gotten miss wrong and the judge

12:11

had heard them

12:14

version of it wasn't me

12:16

throughout the course of her career let

12:18

alone that day she

12:21

was not having any of it these

12:23

are trying to me as as

12:25

to have the immediate the

12:28

legions and camaraderie to

12:30

ignore and move and march right

12:33

along the granted

12:35

be damned and he kept

12:37

saying he wasn't me and they i'm telling

12:39

you it's not best i thought my thought is because

12:41

the way it was being sad and i thought

12:43

what would it mean what could it be if

12:45

i just looked into it for second a these rt

12:47

essentially in custody let's just

12:49

see

12:50

the stopped the proceedings and asked the judge

12:53

for recess to take a look the man

12:55

claim the judge gave

12:57

you twenty minutes nor

12:59

went downstairs to based an office to

13:01

look up the arrest warrant for the case

13:04

photograph of the person they were speaking

13:06

and the warrant database versus the person

13:08

i was looking at getting in the hallways

13:11

they , not the same color complex

13:14

and they had varying

13:16

heights their physical appearance look

13:18

different it with immediately

13:20

apparent said this was not the right

13:22

person

13:26

more told him i'm

13:28

sorry that no one listened to i

13:30

took the time reforms even a cursory

13:32

and stuff and of the photograph the

13:35

man said that's gonna come

13:38

from you

13:41

that man was was released that

13:43

moment when it was clear that the that

13:45

there had been an interstate

13:57

after nineteen the feel

13:59

you issued of or that looked at arrest data

14:01

between two thousand and thirteen and two thousand

14:03

and seventeen the to relapse

14:06

the north time as a prosecutor the

14:09

time and eighty six percent of people arrested

14:11

by the dc police were black even

14:14

though black residents represented just forty

14:16

seven percent of the district population

14:20

more has questioned her role as

14:22

quotes an agent of the system

14:24

that disproportionately filled prisons

14:27

with people who look like me

14:31

more professor legal scholar angela

14:33

davis argued that prosecutors

14:36

are the most powerful officials and the

14:38

criminal justice system she's

14:41

written the date exercise almost

14:43

boundless discretion that

14:46

quote very clear that

14:48

prosecutors control the criminal justice

14:50

system to they're charging and plea

14:52

bargaining power these

14:54

much of that work is done behind closed

14:56

doors that prosecutors

14:58

don't have to explain or justify their decisions

15:01

to the public laura

15:04

coats puts it the times

15:06

it was unclear which camp you were in the

15:09

compartmentalize the

15:11

wonder whether your presence in the system the

15:13

populate and justice or disrupt

15:18

oh you know struck by how many

15:21

balls can get dropped in just the administrators

15:25

and clerical and

15:28

bureaucratic process that the

15:30

goes from charging someone

15:32

to taking them to trial and how everything

15:34

even begins with the prosecutor deciding

15:37

let's pay for this let's go for to not for

15:40

the people there are so

15:42

many instances where

15:45

that phrase and people falling through the cracks

15:49

dangerously accurate the

15:52

problem

15:54

you know there is the expectation of

15:56

profession and there there's not

15:58

a time where the resort this to

16:00

achieve that if

16:02

if we think that for any reason in fact

16:05

that mascot of the department of justice

16:07

was at always taken issue with the sort of forget

16:10

lady justice that essentially

16:12

said as long as we don't see anything everything

16:14

will balance out the and that's just

16:17

not the way life really worth going to get to

16:19

actually see life as it is to be

16:21

able to karate and today

16:23

on the drop

16:41

unexplainable is a science show about

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17:14

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17:17

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that you can have two different life generating

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17:36

serving soon a right

17:39

now

17:41

your coat has one of the strange things

17:43

about working for the us attorney's office we

17:46

got the attorneys were sort of interchangeable

17:48

with one another and all of

17:51

that more together it's government

17:54

and that's what the judges called them to once

17:58

while she was pregnant more remember judge

18:00

setting a date for trial on duty

18:03

that him and that they will not work

18:05

and you to give birth on that day

18:07

and and the judge said really

18:10

the entire government pregnant the

18:12

whole damn as good way to have a baby wow

18:14

lose the father how amazing the whole

18:16

governments unavailable to sort of

18:18

underscore the point of that an athlete

18:20

your schedule wise ass that the government's schedule

18:23

wise

18:25

she often thought in court and observed her colleagues

18:27

trials there was common

18:29

for the prosecutors to wait for breaks

18:31

and one another cases the

18:33

news break their own cases could be called

18:37

he was prepping for one trials were young

18:39

girl was called as a witness and

18:41

testified that she was sexually assaulted

18:44

by your mother's boyfriend there was now

18:46

on trial the judge

18:48

in this case with a woman

18:50

i remember sitting there while i watch

18:52

the young girl who was he

18:54

doesn't have a preteen and

18:56

i remember her walking down the aisle and

18:59

watching the judge again

19:02

her with a level of the

19:04

reason and discussed it appeared

19:07

the

19:10

lined up her skirt the

19:13

shortest featuring insisting and nervous

19:15

smile that she had her face

19:17

which you know either

19:19

as somebody who has had an interview so

19:22

many people who have been victims of

19:24

crimes let alone sexual offenses

19:26

alone those who are young and useful

19:30

i don't put a lot of weight into

19:33

one nervous tax

19:35

or expressions or even last

19:37

term been watching this judges

19:40

face glad the testimony i

19:43

immediately knew this

19:45

would end in an acquittal

19:48

the remember that at one point the prosecutor

19:51

on the case as the girl was she was laughing

19:54

the girl apologized and said i'm

19:57

just really nervous i'm sorry

20:00

not sure how to be

20:02

and then i approach the bench because my matter

20:05

was being called on a break in their try well

20:07

and when i approached the band's i saw on

20:10

her computer the green the

20:12

judge they did not even have

20:15

the courtesy the minimize

20:18

it she was shopping for shoes the

20:20

never forget it was a wide pass

20:23

cognac boot he

20:27

had been looking at the screen

20:29

during the young woman testimony

20:34

the judge found the defendant not guilty more

20:37

remembers that the judge said quote

20:40

no one who had been raped even a young teenager

20:43

will skip down the aisle of the courtroom to

20:45

sector the

20:48

expression of the young girl who they

20:51

did not have the benefit of her mother

20:54

report even if i suspect

20:56

the mother believed her go in her

20:58

own way was victimized by

21:00

a different level of abuse by this man

21:03

and who had gone on to marry this

21:05

person and , young girl

21:08

realizing in that moment in hearing the way the

21:10

judge spoke about her and what

21:12

did i do wrong and her confusion as as

21:15

what what did i do when looking at ourselves level

21:18

of self consciousness and knowing

21:20

she had nowhere to go the

21:22

me

21:24

he's not the managers least the courtroom usually

21:27

everyone stanza that

21:30

day after that ruling more

21:32

says she couldn't bring herself to do it

21:34

more watch

21:36

the witnesses mother and stepfather meeting

21:39

out there

21:43

that was the thing that struck me about

21:45

this young girl is that she

21:47

had nowhere to go because her mother was sticking

21:49

by perpetrator i

21:52

like everyone else with

21:53

syria as to what this mother must

21:55

have been thinking and she was positioned hi

21:58

in the defendant in that

22:01

gallery and the way that her expression

22:03

was so though it that

22:07

fast you know i

22:09

the mental selves would look upon her

22:11

and say she should have done their sin

22:13

a spell to should have acted who she's the supported

22:16

there was something very sad

22:19

about

22:22

the mother the

22:24

circumstances that she

22:26

and her daughter we're now in

22:33

more is one of the most memorable time she was

22:35

in court was once you witness too

22:38

young the being sentenced they've

22:40

been convicted of the homicide not a young

22:42

man the families

22:44

of all

22:45

the men were in the courtroom that day but

22:47

the codefendants were given nearly lifetime

22:50

sentences in prison

22:52

you heard these daughter will cries and screens

22:54

with from what i would think was from the family

22:57

of those who were that now convicted defendants

22:59

spacing stream sentences

23:04

but it came from the victims' families and said

23:07

normal members the victim's father thing to the

23:09

judge please there's

23:12

been enough last already we don't want

23:14

this one

23:16

of the defendants collapsed after the judge

23:18

handed down his ruling marshall

23:21

hope the young man back up and then

23:23

stood behind him so that people in the courtroom

23:26

couldn't see him i

23:28

remember that that marshall never moving holding

23:31

him up seemingly

23:34

the families in the courtroom where it was saying

23:36

suggesting that this marshall was doing something

23:39

wrong and was insensitive for not

23:41

trying to get the person is

23:43

medical attention right away and

23:46

the betrayal that they saw this for

23:48

then who is also a member

23:50

of the black community who decide

23:53

how dare you not protect her take

23:55

on or at least do something of humanity and

23:57

these moments

24:00

after the defendants left the courtroom the

24:02

judge called the next case more

24:04

case he approached the

24:06

bends mm

24:08

she realized why the marshall was standing

24:11

in front of the young man that way

24:13

when i approached the well of the courtroom

24:16

it became apparent this defendant

24:18

who is not convicted in facing the center hard

24:22

that's a kitten in

24:24

that moment the out of fear

24:27

and realization what was the head of him and

24:30

a marshal who was being berated by

24:32

the people in the courtroom

24:36

had been trying to shield what

24:38

he saw as an embarrassment

24:41

for this young man away

24:44

from the view as everyone

24:46

trying to give some semblance of dignity

24:48

and humanity to this man after

24:52

the judge or to date for the next part of north case

24:55

the got up to leave i remember

24:57

him turning to us and just

24:59

saying please don't stand for me not

25:02

today

25:03

just

25:06

how and a wave of what he was

25:08

feeling and that moment of

25:10

be in a position of power and

25:13

not watching it

25:16

laura

25:19

left the courtroom and went to the bathroom

25:21

inside with the mother of the murder victim from

25:23

the sentencing she just witnessed and

25:26

i remember her hurting

25:29

me and touching my stomach

25:32

my very pregnant again asking

25:34

about

25:36

what i'll be having and and for

25:38

having us expression of remembering how

25:41

much the loved being a mother before

25:44

leaving the bathroom and

25:47

i guess it was a a moment that

25:50

will never ever

25:52

leave me the

25:54

can i think sometimes when we think about

25:57

justice me though

26:00

we know what the victim's family

26:03

desires and we

26:05

assume we know what humanity

26:07

look back and who will dole out and

26:10

to whom it is deserved and

26:13

it was one of the most eye opening experience is

26:15

it almost became this war sack came

26:17

in the justice system of the

26:20

different roles that are being played

26:22

and performed and performed and and

26:25

the not unscathed the

26:28

entire experience

26:40

we'll be right back

26:43

in two thousand and fifteen nor coats

26:46

left the department of justice he

26:49

remembers when she decided to quit you

26:51

just want a trial the jury

26:54

the black defendant guilty nor

26:56

his boss the white man was there that

26:58

day and congratulated her by shouting

27:01

we got another one nor

27:04

i thought about the incident for days he

27:08

suffered for your conscience quotes

27:10

it was the proverbial final straw she

27:15

the legal analyst on cnn he's

27:18

written a better experiences in a book just

27:21

pursued a blunt prosecutors

27:23

site for san the

27:25

in it she writes prosecutors

27:29

i never had the luxury of wearing says a lot

27:31

the blinders and i never wanted

27:33

to grief prominently

27:36

stands at every intersection and america

27:38

it's a paralegal policy are

27:40

charging decisions

27:42

i think there is power and people

27:45

seeing themselves in moments

27:47

that are wheel and i think there's power

27:50

and fertile soil i'm

27:53

not experience q

27:55

be the nation we

27:58

say we are on paper and to have

28:00

our legal system really

28:03

be that justice system as i hope

28:05

it people are able to experience that

28:07

and read that and them and

28:09

it there are moments as acts ordinary

28:11

triumphs an extraordinary

28:13

acts of humanity and beauty that

28:16

you know makes you feel good there

28:19

are moments that make you feel aware

28:21

and both are necessary for

28:23

as to no into

28:26

this eyes wide open and

28:29

walking the walk and talking the talk

28:31

of justice

28:35

moore's book is dedicated to two children

28:38

the greater seven and nine

28:41

he was pregnant madame during the years he was trying

28:43

cases that the us attorney's office because

28:47

you want your children to know what you're thinking

28:49

most used prosecutor

28:54

like this this

28:56

i'm working as a prosecutor a

28:58

result the whole range of human emotions

29:01

of course but also just kind of the

29:03

depths of what the one can

29:05

handle and overcome

29:07

and the saw it all

29:10

you tried to ban of i say i said

29:12

has been an all or maybe i've seen enough

29:16

and , of the reasons i left the

29:18

the prosecutor's office in my work

29:21

in the department of justice was because

29:24

there is a nest necessary

29:26

muzzle one must have on in dealing

29:28

with these matters and as much as we would

29:30

like to have transparency it's

29:33

not coming from the prosecutors you

29:35

know i i remember

29:37

thinking about where decided to leave

29:41

and they were moments that sort of forced

29:43

my hand in the sand said my

29:45

conscience couldn't bear some

29:47

aspects as well that

29:50

also i i'm a mother then

29:53

i have a and

29:56

and a little daughter and

30:00

i often timeshare the stories with them

30:02

at times because i want them the

30:05

never go through he

30:07

for the revelations because

30:09

i want them to live in

30:12

if not today the time

30:14

you know right now at

30:17

least eventually and a

30:19

world where the justice system is that

30:22

yeah

30:23

when

30:25

you are in moscow what

30:28

it was gonna be like no

30:31

not at all i'm in a

30:33

way i was a i added

30:35

you loved venerable

30:37

air i loved being in law school

30:40

and i conceptually

30:43

intellectually understood

30:45

about socio economic disparities

30:47

in sociologically disparate impact

30:49

and impact understood injustice

30:51

but it wasn't until wasn't until i did i'm a criminal

30:54

prosecutor that

30:56

i will really the only intellectually

30:59

understand but every fiber

31:01

of my be experiencing

31:05

at and i i can only equate it really

31:07

to am

31:10

locomotive right we know

31:12

the power of a locomotive we know the

31:14

power of an engine we know the power

31:16

and that ferocity and the speed

31:19

at which a train can travel

31:22

we intellectually know about

31:24

all these factors but

31:27

, not until you're on

31:29

a platform and

31:31

this sub whole chain with

31:34

his bag not stopping

31:36

at us station not slowing

31:38

to a halt for you to board but

31:40

with as by that the reverberations

31:42

are spelled it takes your breath

31:45

away you are required that you're sat back

31:47

and now there is that that forever

31:51

bridge and connective tissue between

31:53

what you intellectually new and

31:56

what it felt like no

31:58

one forget the theory that

32:00

dream

32:21

created by lawrence and ,

32:24

me lesson as a senior producer key

32:27

bishop as or supervising or or

32:29

producers are susanna roberson check

32:31

a city girl a power or

32:34

technical director is rob buyers engineering

32:37

arrested me

32:40

julian alexander makes original illustrations

32:42

for each episode criminal you can

32:44

c them at this criminal dot com on

32:47

, and twitter at criminal show

32:50

and instagram and criminal underscore podcast

32:54

criminal was recorded in the studio of north carolina

32:56

public radio wu and seats were

32:59

parts of the vox media podcast network

33:02

discover more great shows podcast

33:04

dot vox media one i'm

33:07

phoebe judge is