0:00

This week on The Weeds, hundreds

0:03

of anti-LGBTQ bills have

0:05

been introduced in state legislatures across

0:08

the country. The vast majority targeting

0:11

trans rights. This care is actually

0:13

already without these laws incredibly

0:15

difficult to obtain, even if you have

0:17

a good job, even if you have good insurance. And

0:20

I think that people skip over that and lawmakers

0:22

certainly do. They make it sound like you just get it at your

0:24

corner store. I'm Jonquelyn

0:27

Hill, host of The Weeds, a

0:29

podcast all

0:30

about the policies that shape our lives.

0:32

New episodes drop every Wednesday. Find

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it wherever you get your podcasts.

0:43

This episode contains descriptions of violence.

0:46

Please use discretion.

0:51

What happens if I

0:53

get a jury summons and I say, I'm

0:56

not going. I don't want to

0:58

do this. I'm busy. In

1:01

North Carolina, I don't know what happens. In

1:03

many jurisdictions, quite

1:05

possibly nothing will happen. In Massachusetts,

1:08

we will pursue you and we will

1:11

prosecute you criminally if we

1:13

can't get you to either show

1:16

us that you're disqualified or get

1:18

you to do your service. And

1:22

that's very well known that we do this. That's

1:24

very well known within Massachusetts. So I will get

1:26

calls from frantic

1:28

people saying, I was on my way to the courthouse

1:30

and I got a flat tire and I didn't

1:33

make it and I don't want to be arrested. Please

1:36

don't arrest me. We're like, calm down.

1:39

You're a long, long, long

1:41

way from anything like that happening.

1:43

So if you just

1:46

miss it or if you say, I don't want

1:48

to go, 10 days after

1:50

you don't show up you're going to get a failure to appear

1:52

notice. And at that point you may be like,

1:54

oh, these people aren't going away. You

1:57

know, you're going to have to go in one way or another.

1:59

able to avoid us. I'm

2:02

Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.

2:18

Pamela Wood is the jury commissioner for

2:20

the state of Massachusetts. I

2:23

had never heard of a jury commissioner. I

2:25

hadn't either until I became the

2:27

jury commissioner. The

2:29

jury commissioner is the head

2:32

of the office that's responsible for,

2:35

primarily for creating diverse

2:38

and representative summonsing lists,

2:41

making sure to include

2:43

everybody who might be eligible

2:45

to serve, and sending out the summonses,

2:48

and making sure that the right

2:50

number of people show up in the right courts on

2:52

the right days.

2:54

I've never been called for jury duty.

2:57

That's just wrong. I

2:59

don't, and I'm confused

3:01

by it. In Massachusetts, we

3:04

surely

3:04

would have found you, because

3:06

we have arguably

3:09

the best master jurist, master source

3:11

list

3:11

in the country, which is that

3:14

we have an annual municipal census. So

3:17

every year, the 351 cities

3:19

and towns submit the names and

3:21

addresses the contact information of all their

3:23

residents, including college students and

3:26

military and things like that. Most

3:29

jurisdictions use voter

3:32

registration lists and driver

3:34

registration lists, and they may dip into

3:36

things like, you know, hunting

3:38

licenses and permits that

3:40

you've pulled for construction and anywhere

3:42

they can get that kind of information. So

3:46

we don't use those lists because they're

3:49

not inclusive. So not everybody

3:52

registers to vote. Not everybody

3:54

has a car. You know,

3:56

people who are marginalized

3:58

or low income may be more

3:59

likely to be left off the list. So

4:03

that's why we're very happy to have the

4:05

census to create our juror lists

4:07

from. AMT.

4:08

And how do you determine who will get

4:11

a summons for jury duty? JS. Well,

4:13

I don't. It's all random.

4:16

It's computerized. AMT. And

4:18

in the same way that the selection is random,

4:21

what cases those who have been selected

4:23

will hear is also completely random. You're not

4:25

trying to match.

4:26

JS. Completely. Absolutely not. Nope. We're

4:28

just sending what our goal is to

4:31

send a representative and

4:33

diverse group of people to every

4:35

court on the days that they need

4:37

jurors. And what that

4:39

means, much to some people's consternation,

4:43

is you might live at one end of a very

4:45

large county down the street

4:47

from a courthouse, and we

4:49

send you a summons saying we want you to go to jury

4:52

service at the other end of the county. And it may

4:54

be a long drive through rush

4:56

hour traffic, and people say, why can't I just

4:58

walk down the street? And

5:00

the answer to that is that we want a random

5:03

distribution of the population

5:05

of that county to appear at every courthouse.

5:08

So we don't have all

5:09

farmers appearing in the

5:11

rural counties and all urban dwellers

5:14

appearing in the cities. So

5:16

that's how they've defined a jury of your peers,

5:19

is a random selection of people who

5:21

live in your county.

5:24

In Massachusetts, if you're called for

5:26

jury duty, you'll be shown a video

5:28

that explains what's expected of you. It

5:31

also tells you a little bit about the history of jury

5:34

duty in the state.

5:35

The video notes that women couldn't serve on

5:38

juries until 1950. As

5:41

recently as the 1980s, whole

5:43

categories of citizens were exempted

5:46

from service, including legislators,

5:49

parents of young children, clergy,

5:51

teachers, firefighters, lawyers,

5:54

and many others. As a result,

5:57

juries were not necessarily very

5:59

representative.

5:59

representative of the community. They'll show

6:02

the video. That's the orientation

6:04

video. It's required to be shown to

6:06

jurors before they serve.

6:10

A judge will come and greet them, and

6:12

that's really up to the judge. And

6:16

judges make their own greetings. They can do

6:18

something about the history of juries

6:20

or their own personal feelings

6:22

about the jury system, which of course are

6:24

always positive. Or it

6:27

can be very sort of practical about,

6:29

we'll get you

6:29

out of here as soon as we can. We've got

6:32

a very important case today, you know,

6:34

whatever they want to say. And

6:37

then when they actually go to an impanlement,

6:40

they'll get a lot more detail about the case

6:42

they're going to sit on. What

6:45

type of case is it they'll be

6:48

asked to look at the defendant or

6:50

parties, plaintiff and defendant if it's a civil

6:53

case, and the attorneys to

6:56

see if they know them. They'll be asked if they've

6:58

heard anything about the case. They'll be read a

7:01

list of witnesses and asked

7:03

if they recognize any of those names. And

7:06

then they'll be asked a series of questions. Do

7:09

you know any of these people? Do you have any interest in

7:11

the outcome of the case? Have you seen any publicity

7:14

about

7:14

it? And if people put

7:16

up their cards and say, yes, that's me,

7:19

they'll be called up to speak privately with

7:21

the judge and the attorneys

7:23

to hear more about why they

7:26

feel that they, you know, had

7:28

to answer a question affirmatively. And

7:31

it may be something very simple like, oh,

7:33

this is a case against, you know, IBM and

7:37

my father worked for IBM when I was a

7:39

child for a couple of years. And everybody

7:42

may say, well, that's fine. You know, we don't care about

7:44

that. But if they say, oh, I went

7:46

to high school with the plaintiff, you

7:48

know, and we were best friends, then they will be excused

7:51

from that case.

7:56

Your

8:00

members must remain impartial and

8:02

open-minded throughout the trial. At

8:04

the trial, the judge will give you detailed

8:06

instructions about your duties. Here

8:09

are important rules that must be followed

8:11

in all cases. During

8:13

the trial, you may not discuss any

8:15

aspect of the case with anyone, including

8:18

family, friends, or trial participants.

8:22

The idea being, you know, if I go

8:24

home and talk to my husband about, you

8:26

know, what the police officer said about the

8:29

crime, then

8:30

my husband may say, well, you know,

8:32

that guy must be guilty. And I might say,

8:35

yeah, it sort of seems that way. I

8:37

agree with you, you know. And

8:39

then I come back to court the next day with

8:42

that in mind, and I haven't kept

8:44

an open mind. I've brought somebody

8:47

else into the process.

8:49

So one thing we do to check

8:53

on it is just about every morning

8:55

before we begin, I will say have you all

8:58

abided by my instructions not to listen to

9:00

any news broadcasts or talk to anybody

9:02

about the facts of the case? They

9:05

all nod.

9:06

Judge Georgiou Tool, Jr. You

9:08

know, I never know whether somebody's cheated or

9:10

not, but mostly they

9:12

take their work really seriously. And

9:15

when we say this is really important that you can find

9:17

yourself only to what you've heard here in

9:19

the courtroom and not on any private

9:21

investigation you've done, any comments

9:24

that other people have made, tell your family

9:26

members you just can't talk about it. And

9:28

they do.

9:29

They follow through on that. Judge

9:32

Georgiou Tool became a judge in 1982 and

9:35

has been a federal judge since 1995. In 2015,

9:40

he presided over the trial of Johar

9:42

Zarnayev, one of the two brothers

9:45

who placed bombs near the finish line of

9:47

the Boston Marathon. Jury

9:50

selection was complicated because so

9:52

many people had connections to the victims

9:54

or first responders. The

9:57

bombs were homemade, made with pressure.

10:00

cookers and went off seconds apart.

10:03

Three people were killed, Crystal

10:05

Campbell, 29, Luling

10:08

Z, 23, and Martin

10:10

Richard, who was 8. More

10:13

than 260 people were injured, 17 people lost their legs.

10:20

Governor Deval Patrick described

10:22

the search for Zsóhar Zarnayev as

10:25

a massive manhunt and said, we

10:28

are asking people to shelter in place. Zarnayev

10:32

was charged with 30 federal crimes, 17 of

10:36

which carried the death penalty as a potential

10:38

sentence,

10:39

including

10:41

the use of a weapon of mass destruction

10:43

and conspiracy.

10:46

1373 prospective

10:49

jurors filled out screening questionnaires.

10:52

People wrote about neighbors and friends who'd

10:54

been injured. Another

10:57

difficulty in selecting jurors was

11:00

that because some of the crimes carried the death penalty

11:02

as a potential sentence, each

11:05

member of the jury had to be willing

11:07

to consider it.

11:10

Selecting the jury took two months. The

11:13

trial began in March of 2015. There

11:17

was huge international

11:21

press coverage of the case, and

11:24

we just didn't want to have the jurors arriving

11:29

individually by themselves at the courthouse

11:31

and maybe having to make their way through a crowd

11:34

of both of the general public

11:36

and perhaps of people from media. So

11:39

we arranged with the Marshal Service

11:42

for the jurors all to assemble

11:44

at a remote location

11:46

every morning. And then a bus

11:48

would bring them over. They'd come into the garage

11:50

of the building and go straight up to the

11:52

jury room in an elevator

11:56

and not through any of the public parts

11:58

of the building.

11:59

and we'd reverse that in the evening.

12:02

They'd go down the elevator, get

12:04

on the bus, be brought back to their spot

12:08

of departure first thing

12:10

in the morning. So that was partly

12:12

to keep them insulated from demonstrations,

12:15

for example, but also just

12:18

the physical

12:19

anxiety of having

12:21

to pass through a large

12:23

number of people who are assembled

12:26

at the courthouse to listen

12:28

to the case.

12:31

Do you remember if any of the jurors who

12:33

were chosen asked to be let go when

12:37

they realized what type of graphic

12:39

evidence was going to be shown? So

12:43

we go through a very, in this case, we

12:45

did go through a very extensive

12:49

examination of the jurors as they were being

12:51

selected. And sure, there are people who

12:54

had strong views already and didn't think

12:56

they could put them aside,

12:59

but there are also people who really understand

13:01

what the system is about and why we

13:03

need people who are open-minded.

13:06

And that's what we do during the selection

13:08

process, what we call the vaudir. We

13:11

try to get at that

13:12

kind of

13:14

intellectual commitment to

13:17

do the job they're being asked to do. And

13:19

if they say they can't do it, then we don't let

13:22

them stay. You know, they can move along

13:24

and maybe get another case that

13:26

might not have the same pressures. We

13:29

spent a long time empanelling

13:31

the jury.

13:32

The jurors heard testimony from 154 witnesses. So

13:38

there were different categories

13:40

of witnesses. So there were law enforcement people

13:43

who could tell you what they did and saw. A

13:46

lot of the people who had been injured in the

13:49

bombing testified. Some

13:52

had lost legs. Some

13:54

had been injured in other ways. Some had been

13:57

emotionally harmed.

13:58

And

14:00

of course, they were the family members of the

14:03

deceased. So

14:06

their families and friends

14:08

testified, and

14:10

it was a very graphic testimony.

14:14

Do you find yourself in cases like these

14:16

at the end of the day just kind of going back to your chambers

14:19

and wanting to lie down or

14:21

just be quiet for a moment?

14:23

I think the latter, yes.

14:27

It's very—I mean, I have a

14:29

lot of experience with it, but it's

14:32

not by any means

14:34

that I'm indifferent

14:36

to it in any way. So yeah,

14:39

it's very emotional.

14:41

But it's

14:43

my job to keep it under control. Four

14:47

days after the bombings, Johar

14:49

Zarnayev and his brother, Tamarlin Zarnayev,

14:52

were found in Watertown, Massachusetts. They

14:55

threw pipe bombs and shot at the police,

14:58

and the police shot back.

15:02

According to the police, Tamarlin

15:04

started coming towards them while firing his gun,

15:07

and after he ran out of ammunition, officers

15:10

tackled him. Johar

15:13

got into a stolen SUV and drove

15:15

toward the police officers, hitting

15:17

his brother in the process.

15:20

Tamarlin Zarnayev was pronounced dead

15:22

about an hour later.

15:25

Johar Zarnayev drove away. He

15:29

then escaped, and it was gone for quite a while.

15:34

And at some point, a homeowner

15:36

in Watertown went

15:38

out to his backyard where he had a boat,

15:40

and it had canvas

15:43

covering it to protect the interior of the boat from

15:45

getting rained on and so on. And

15:48

there was something odd about it. So we noticed why the police,

15:50

and they came in, and the

15:53

defendant was actually hiding in the

15:56

boat. But there had also been,

15:58

and I'm not quite sure, but there had been a lot of problems.

15:59

clear as I think back on it the

16:02

precise sequence but there was a fusillade

16:05

of bullets fired at the boat and

16:08

I think it was the defense strategy perhaps

16:10

to encourage some sympathy

16:12

for the defendant that

16:15

law enforcement overdid the

16:18

armed assault on the boat so they wanted the boat to be

16:20

brought in so the jurors could see the number of

16:22

bullet holes in the boat and the blood

16:25

that was inside so I think it

16:27

was I think it was something the defense wanted

16:29

the

16:29

jurors to understand what how

16:32

he had been apprehended and what that might

16:34

mean so we

16:37

made arrangements for a an

16:41

open space a warehouse in

16:43

South Boston that was not far

16:45

from the courthouse we had the boat towed

16:48

down and brought into that warehouse and

16:51

the jurors were brought

16:53

down by bus on one day

16:56

and were able to walk around the boat and

16:58

ask didn't ask any questions

17:01

but they could they could they could sort

17:03

of interrogate the boat by

17:05

looking at it closely and

17:07

then we went back to the courthouse and resumed the trial

17:10

in the courtroom.

17:12

Judge O'Toole says that over the course of the

17:14

trial he kept a close eye on the

17:16

jury trying to take what he called

17:19

their emotional temperature.

17:21

They were shown photographs that the rest of

17:24

the courtroom didn't see.

17:26

The worst thing was autopsy

17:28

pictures so you have a young boy

17:31

whose his body was

17:34

really torn apart but

17:38

it was part of the government's case to

17:40

put that into evidence. We kept it

17:43

very minimal

17:44

so that it was not extended

17:47

at all but just it's the

17:51

jury really had

17:53

an obligation to understand the

17:56

horror of

17:57

the events.

18:00

When the state's chief medical examiner described

18:02

how the eight-year-old victim, Martin Richard,

18:04

died, a reporter for

18:06

The New York Times wrote that some

18:09

members of the jury hung their

18:11

heads in their hands. At

18:13

least three were crying.

18:16

Two or three looked as if they were staring into

18:18

the abyss.

18:23

Do you sometimes do you ever think

18:25

to yourself, well,

18:29

I wish they didn't have to see, you

18:31

know, just as another human being kind

18:34

of looked down at the jury and think, well, this

18:37

is a lot for the day. These jurors have really

18:39

been through the

18:42

wringer today.

18:42

Yes, yes.

18:48

Do you think that there's a way to get

18:52

the message across, get the full picture

18:54

in front of jurors in

18:57

cases like these without

18:59

having to show them these,

19:02

you

19:03

know, kind of horrendous images?

19:06

Is it possible? Well,

19:08

I don't know. I mean, if you ask the prosecutors, they

19:11

would tell you that they have to do this because

19:13

you can't understand how horrible things were

19:16

if you didn't see the actual one because most

19:19

people don't

19:21

extend their imagination in that direction. And

19:24

so it takes having

19:27

to see something you don't want

19:29

to see to understand how

19:32

bad it was.

19:34

I can think of it, for example,

19:37

to switch to a different case. I remember trying

19:40

a trial pornography case and the images

19:43

were awful. And we had a rule

19:46

that the lawyers, this would be

19:48

the prosecution, essentially, could

19:50

display the images. But of course, it was the images

19:53

that were, in a sense, on trial with the defendant.

19:56

They could display it to the jury for five seconds.

19:59

And that's all. So we would take

20:01

measures like that to try to mitigate

20:04

the unpleasantness, if

20:06

not

20:07

the disgust that jurors

20:09

might have. But it would be necessary for

20:11

them to understand what exactly was at stake

20:14

in the case.

20:20

The Boston Marathon bombing trial was

20:22

five weeks long. The

20:24

jury found Johar Zarnayev guilty

20:27

on all 30 counts. Then

20:30

the jurors began what's called the penalty

20:33

phase to determine whether

20:35

or not he would be executed.

20:37

That lasted for four weeks,

20:39

and the jury voted for the death penalty.

20:43

Some of the victim's family members had

20:45

told the press that they didn't want Zarnayev

20:48

to get the death penalty. And after

20:50

it was all over, one juror

20:53

spoke publicly, saying,

20:55

if I had known that, I probably would

20:57

change my vote.

21:00

He said, I've never had

21:02

to make a decision like that in my life, choosing

21:05

between somebody getting the death penalty and

21:07

somebody getting life in prison. And

21:10

I hope I never have to do something like that again.

21:14

My mind still goes back every now and then. It's

21:17

not something that I'll ever forget.

21:28

At the end of the trial,

21:30

you entered

21:32

an order to extend the term

21:34

of service for the jurors and the alternate jurors

21:37

by 90 days. Why?

21:39

Because of the emotional impact

21:41

of the evidence they'd seen, and because

21:43

we expected that when they no longer had

21:46

each other, the

21:47

jurors,

21:49

they might be home by themselves, and

21:52

might have memories

21:55

of awful images

21:57

that they've had and so on.

21:59

I wanted to allow those people who thought

22:02

it would be helpful to them to have some counseling

22:05

about how to handle their emotions

22:07

and their memories. And so

22:09

that was the purpose of the order.

22:18

We'll be right back.

22:33

Hey folks, I'm Heather Cox Richardson.

22:36

And I'm Joanne Freeman. We're the hosts

22:38

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22:40

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23:00

Wednesday as we make sense of the headlines

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23:06

Listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

23:12

Okay,

23:15

so I'm recording. Can

23:17

you say your name and how

23:19

you know me? My name is Ann Bird-Platt,

23:23

and I am Bird Pinkerton's mother. And

23:26

I am Bird Pinkerton from Unexplainable.

23:29

I called up my mom because our show is doing

23:31

a series about how pregnancy

23:33

and parenthood shapes people's bodies,

23:36

brains, and lives.

23:38

I was actually

23:41

aware of my brain expanding.

23:43

I am far more sensitive to

23:46

light

23:46

and sound. I don't even know where to start. Everything's

23:49

completely different. Our

23:52

new three-part series is called Expecting,

23:54

so follow Unexplainable on Spotify

23:57

for new episodes every Wednesday.

24:00

I'm intrigued, but I'm also puzzled.

24:03

It basically opens up more questions

24:06

than it even begins to answer.

24:08

Welcome to the show.

24:13

The very, very first homicide case I had

24:16

when I was a judge, was

24:19

a 10-day case.

24:21

It involved a man who put a hit out

24:23

on a woman, a 19-year-old,

24:26

and when no one else could find

24:28

her, he finally found her. He

24:31

shot her a couple of times, and then he

24:33

executed her.

24:35

The testimony

24:37

was graphic. The photos were graphic.

24:40

This was a young woman. As the

24:42

trial was going on, I could see

24:44

my jurors become more and more distressed

24:47

every day.

24:48

Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice Jill

24:50

Kirovsky. Before

24:53

she joined the Supreme Court, she was the

24:55

state's first violence against women

24:57

resource prosecutor,

24:59

and then a circuit court judge. When

25:03

we bring jurors in and they

25:05

are asked to sit in a case,

25:07

this is what we instruct them.

25:09

You may not talk about the facts

25:12

of this case with anyone,

25:14

not even your fellow jurors until it is

25:16

time to deliberate.

25:19

So we're telling them that they need to look

25:22

at graphic photos. They need to hear

25:24

graphic testimony. They need to listen

25:27

to graphic 911

25:28

calls. And

25:31

they can't do the two

25:33

things

25:34

that we know people must do

25:36

in order to work through trauma,

25:39

and that is one, process it, usually

25:41

by talking about it. Some people can write

25:44

about it or process it, however, and

25:46

through relationships with other people.

25:49

But we have closed those avenues.

25:52

So what we ask jurors to do is to

25:54

just absorb all this trauma and just

25:56

to keep on absorbing it and

25:59

not process it with anyone, just hold

26:02

it in, and hold it in, and hold

26:04

it in.

26:07

And I could watch my jury in this case

26:11

struggling, and I kept talking

26:13

to my colleagues, and I kept talking to the

26:16

administrators around me saying, I've

26:18

got a jury that I know is in distress, how

26:20

can I help them? And there

26:22

really wasn't anything available.

26:25

The best I could do was,

26:28

one of my fellow judges has a

26:31

very, an elderly lab

26:34

named Ursa, and she brought Ursa

26:36

into the courthouse on one

26:39

occasion, and I said, I'm going to ask my jurors

26:41

if they'd like a visit from Ursa over lunch. And

26:44

they were all for it, so my, I didn't go in there,

26:46

but my colleague brought Ursa in and they all got to

26:48

love up a dog over lunch. That

26:51

was the best I could do.

26:52

And the thing I was most

26:55

afraid of happening happened, and

26:57

that is that my jury deliberated

27:00

late on a Friday afternoon

27:02

into a Friday evening.

27:04

They came back with the verdict Friday night,

27:07

and I sent them out into the dark all

27:10

by themselves. And

27:13

I know

27:14

they had to have been scared because

27:17

when I left the courthouse that night and I took

27:19

the

27:19

special judge elevator down to the

27:22

special judge garage where no one could get me

27:24

and I got into my car, I was

27:26

still scared. And

27:29

I felt terrible.

27:32

Judge Kirovsky contacted a friend

27:35

who was a therapist

27:36

who said she'd be willing to see jurors for two

27:39

free sessions. If

27:41

they needed more, she'd work with them to find

27:43

a way to get sessions covered by insurance. Then

27:48

Judge Kirovsky wrote a letter she'd give

27:50

to jurors at the end of a trial. The

27:53

letter describes ways they might feel afterwards.

27:57

They might notice changes in their appetite or

27:59

sleep.

28:00

and said that if they were having a tough time to

28:02

call her or the therapist.

28:05

And people reached out.

28:07

Their biggest concerns were, number

28:10

one, did we get it right? And number two,

28:12

am I going to be in any physical danger

28:14

because of the verdict that we rendered? I

28:17

had one individual call me the day after

28:19

one of these trials. And

28:25

this guy was great. He was,

28:27

I don't know, he was probably

28:29

late, late 50s, early 60s, tall

28:31

guy, big guy. And he got on

28:33

the phone with me and he said,

28:36

judge, this is the day after the trial. He

28:38

said, judge, I walked in the

28:40

door after serving on your jury last

28:43

night and I burst into tears.

28:46

What the hell is wrong with me?

28:54

There are situations where I have seen

28:56

jurors have to stay out and deliberate until

28:59

two, three, four, five

29:01

in the morning.

29:03

I wouldn't want to make a decision

29:06

about should I buy a red car

29:08

or a blue car at four in the morning

29:10

having been up all night.

29:13

We always say, why don't you sleep on it?

29:15

I'm going to sleep on it. And

29:18

I think that's one of the other, one of the other places

29:20

where we could be very, very mindful of jurors,

29:23

of court staff, making sure

29:25

that everyone is getting enough rest,

29:28

enough sleep so

29:31

that they're able to make the best decision

29:33

that they possibly can. We put them in a

29:35

position where they can make the best decision

29:37

that they possibly can.

29:42

Where I worked, we brought jurors in on Monday

29:44

morning and the jurors had no idea were

29:46

they going to be on a case or were they going to get

29:48

to go home? Were they going to be on a

29:51

half day trial about

29:53

a retail theft or maybe

29:55

a first time drunk driving or

29:58

were they going to be on a multi-day trial?

29:59

a graphic

30:02

child sexual assault case, a child pornography

30:05

case, a

30:07

homicide, a

30:09

sexual assault case of an adult. They

30:12

would have no idea.

30:16

They would come in

30:17

and I tried to be very

30:19

sensitive about the questions I was asking people

30:21

especially in a domestic violence or a sexual

30:24

assault case. I would let them know upfront

30:26

what the case was about and I would say if

30:29

just knowing what

30:31

the issue in this case is about,

30:33

if you hear that and you are thinking there

30:36

is no way I can sit on this jury trial,

30:38

I'm going to let you go without asking any more questions.

30:42

That doesn't always happen. There are some judges

30:45

who believe that they need to individually

30:47

talk to each of the

30:49

jurors and by individually

30:51

it's not just the judge and the juror, right? The

30:54

courtrooms have to be open. They can ask

30:56

the other jurors to leave but

30:58

anyone else can sit in there and they can ask

31:01

why can't you sit on this case? Have

31:03

you been a victim before? Has

31:05

your child been a victim before? They

31:08

feel like they need to ask all these probing

31:10

questions. Right from

31:12

the get

31:12

go,

31:13

you can really, really trigger some people.

31:16

There are instances where people

31:19

have shown up for a jury trial where

31:21

the judge has asked have

31:24

any of you ever been a victim of sexual

31:26

assault?

31:27

Someone will raise their hand and it will be the

31:29

first time they have ever disclosed

31:32

that they were a victim of sexual assault.

31:35

The first time in a public courtroom

31:38

without any support there,

31:40

without knowing what that answer is

31:43

going to mean, does that mean they're going to be on the jury,

31:45

they're not going to be on the jury? In

31:47

front of these complete strangers on

31:50

the record so there's a court reporter

31:52

taking down every word that is being said.

31:57

I think the justice system is just now understanding.

32:00

how trauma impacts victims. I

32:02

think the justice system is just now understanding

32:05

how trauma impacts defendants.

32:08

And we haven't quite

32:10

had the opportunity

32:12

to look out and understand how trauma

32:14

is affecting everyone in the courtroom.

32:26

Why

32:26

aren't jurors given more preparation,

32:30

explicit preparation, or

32:33

warnings about the type of evidence

32:35

that they might have to encounter?

32:38

Well, I think

32:40

in some cases they might be, but

32:43

in general, the

32:45

court doesn't want to do anything to

32:48

color or influence the jurors'

32:51

preconceptions about the case.

32:55

Massachusetts jury commissioner Pamela Wood.

32:57

The court doesn't want to presume

32:59

that somebody, you know, might

33:03

have a certain reaction to a certain type of evidence. Now,

33:06

if it's,

33:08

you know, if it's fairly clear, if

33:10

it's going to be a very gory murder

33:12

case involving, you know, dismemberment

33:16

or something like that, the judge

33:18

might say something. But they're not going

33:20

to emphasize it because they don't want

33:22

to, they don't want to be seen

33:25

as opining or coloring their

33:27

own view or the jurors' view

33:30

of what might or might not be upsetting.

33:33

We, my office, the office of jury

33:35

commissioner, send around a survey

33:38

to everybody after they serve

33:39

and ask for

33:41

their views. And it really

33:45

runs the gamut. People, so you

33:47

could easily get somebody who'd say, I wish

33:50

the judge had warned me there would be graphic

33:52

photographs. But in

33:54

the same trial, somebody will

33:56

say, you know, I really didn't

33:58

appreciate the judge.

33:59

you know, presuming that I couldn't handle

34:02

it or, you know,

34:04

I felt like the judge was trying

34:07

to discourage me from serving or something.

34:09

So people have very different reactions and that's

34:13

one of the beauties of the jury system is that people

34:15

bring different perspectives to

34:18

the task and so the court

34:20

is always walking a very fine line

34:22

of trying to preserve

34:24

that open-mindedness and

34:27

not

34:28

suggest that this is going to be a very

34:30

upsetting case or this is going to be a very disturbing

34:32

case

34:34

because right away, I mean, the defense would object

34:37

to that to say, let's let the

34:39

jury decide what, how

34:42

they feel about this case. Don't you

34:44

bring them into the case saying, oh, don't

34:46

do this if you're squeamish or

34:49

if you, you know, have sensitive,

34:51

you know, sensibilities.

34:54

You know, with that naming names,

34:56

I remember raising this with one

34:59

judge who said, you know, tell them to suck

35:01

it up.

35:08

We'll be right back.

35:21

10 years ago in the summer of 2013, blurred

35:24

lines was everywhere. And eventually

35:27

it made its

35:30

way to court for sounding too much like

35:32

a Marvin Gaye song called Got to Give

35:34

It Up.

35:39

The verdict in that court case had huge

35:41

implications for the music industry and

35:43

it's the reason Ed Sheeran was

35:45

just in court because this when your

35:47

legs don't work like they used to before

35:50

kind of sort of sounded a bit too much like this.

35:56

Coming up on today, explain the lasting

35:59

legacy of a song. that just refuses

36:01

to go away. ["If

36:03

You Can't Hear What I'm Trying To

36:05

Say"]

36:21

In your time as jury commissioner, how

36:25

long have people been talking

36:27

about trauma for

36:30

jurors? Off and on really

36:32

the entire time. It's

36:35

been a very troubling problem

36:40

for probably long before I became jury commissioner.

36:43

You know, I received some communications

36:46

early on from jurors,

36:49

but I can't imagine my predecessor didn't

36:51

get the same sort of thing, saying,

36:54

you know, this was really, you know, upsetting.

36:57

You know, I wish I'd known it was going

36:59

to be, you know, that graphic.

37:02

But I will tell you that I served

37:04

on a jury last April in federal

37:07

court, and it wasn't graphic

37:09

or gory or anything like

37:12

that, and it was a civil case, so

37:14

nobody was going to lose their liberty over it.

37:16

And I was struck by

37:18

how stressful, I guess,

37:22

I found the

37:24

responsibility of sitting there in the box

37:27

and thinking, I'm going to have to decide

37:29

who wins this case and who doesn't

37:32

with my fellow jurors. And

37:34

even that was

37:36

stressful, and we see that in the comments, that

37:38

people say it was an awesome responsibility.

37:41

Some people love that. They say, I

37:43

felt so empowered. I renewed

37:47

my faith in the, you know, in the judicial

37:49

system or, you know, it

37:52

made me proud to live in a democracy. You

37:54

know, you get very inspirational comments like that.

37:57

The letter, I think that means the most to me,

37:59

gotten over the years was from a gentleman

38:02

who wrote to me and said, I've made mistakes in

38:04

my life. I'm going to choke up. I do

38:07

every time I tell this story. He said, I made

38:09

mistakes in my life and I'm a convicted

38:11

felon. And I thought I would never

38:13

be a part of the community again. And I went

38:15

to jury duty and they put

38:17

me on the jury and they made me the

38:20

foreperson. And

38:22

I feel like I'm a part of the community again.

38:25

And I just thought,

38:27

boy, you know, that's really what

38:29

it's about is making people

38:32

feel like their voice is

38:34

important and that they're part of the

38:36

government, that they are

38:38

what makes our society operate.

38:43

But it, you know, it's not a

38:45

walk in the park. It's not a walk in the park

38:47

at all. So it's

38:49

a, it can

38:51

be, it's a serious experience.

38:54

Let's just say that. Every now and then we

38:56

get some comment from someone who says this

38:58

was a waste of time. This case never should have

39:00

come to trial. The prosecutor didn't have a case,

39:03

you know, but, but much

39:05

more often that's, that's rare and much

39:08

more often people talk about what

39:10

an important and sometimes stressful experience

39:13

it was.

39:16

Federal courts can grant jurors

39:18

access to counseling if they've been on

39:20

a high stress trial. They

39:22

can basically be temporarily treated like

39:25

a federal employee and have access

39:27

to some of those mental health benefits. This

39:30

is how judge O'Toole was able to get the

39:32

jurors free counseling after the Boston

39:34

bombing trial.

39:37

Pamela Wood says Massachusetts had

39:39

tried to make something like this happen at the state

39:42

level. They'd also tried

39:44

to share information about ways jurors

39:46

could get help on their own. But

39:49

it was all just extremely ad hoc. You

39:52

know, we felt like we had to do something

39:55

and sort of acknowledge that

39:57

this was even an issue.

40:01

One judge wondered if jurors could be considered

40:03

state employees, since they were

40:05

paid for their time and temporarily

40:07

get state employee benefits.

40:10

Pamela says that didn't work out.

40:14

But after a lot of trial and

40:16

error, the state of Massachusetts

40:19

figured out how to implement a statewide

40:22

juror counseling program. The

40:25

state will pay for jurors to have three

40:27

free sessions with a counselor. If

40:30

that isn't enough, the counselor will

40:32

help them make a plan. And

40:35

have jurors been using the program? They

40:37

have. They have.

40:39

Very few, thankfully. I mean, it's interesting.

40:41

People, you know, some people say, well, how's it

40:43

going? Are you getting lots and lots of takers?

40:46

And I'm like, I don't want lots and lots of takers.

40:49

I don't want to discover that jury

40:51

service is traumatizing for large

40:54

groups of people.

40:55

But for the few for

40:57

whom it is, we want to

40:59

have something available. They've

41:02

been up and running for about a year. And

41:04

she says that some people who have taken

41:07

advantage of the program only meet

41:09

with a counselor once. In

41:11

fact, there was one person who called

41:15

as they were leaving the courthouse and

41:18

they left a message. And

41:22

so the counselor called them back and they were kind

41:24

of resolved at that point. And they said

41:26

as soon as they left the message, they felt better.

41:29

You know, just knowing that they had,

41:31

that there was this option and that they weren't alone

41:33

with this. So it's kind

41:35

of an interesting, it's been kind

41:37

of an interesting phenomenon in that way. It's

41:40

almost like just knowing that it's available is

41:43

doing a lot to serve the purpose that we're trying

41:46

to

41:46

achieve. AMT.

41:48

And acknowledging that it is okay

41:51

to have feelings

41:54

about what you saw or heard or had

41:56

to take part in. AMT. Absolutely.

41:59

Absolutely. a huge part of it.

42:01

And I think that's a change in

42:04

recent years of

42:07

the attitude about this experience

42:10

of serving as a juror. There was a feeling like, yes,

42:12

it's tough in a lot of ways. You

42:15

know, it's tough to arrange your schedule

42:17

to get to the courthouse. It may be tough to get

42:19

to the courthouse. You know, it's tough

42:21

to arrange childcare and be away from your family.

42:24

And, you

42:25

know, it's tough to argue with strangers

42:28

and have to come to an agreement when you may not

42:30

agree. You know, we acknowledge it's

42:32

an inconvenience. It's demanding. And

42:35

it's an obligation of citizenship, and

42:37

it's also a right. And it's just tremendously

42:39

important to our democracy. And we appreciate

42:41

you, and we thank you. And we

42:44

hope you'll recover from all of it,

42:47

from taking the time off and getting the childcare and

42:49

being away from your work and your family, and

42:51

also whatever you saw. And this is

42:54

sort of an acknowledgement

42:55

that

42:59

that's really a little different from the inconveniences

43:02

of serving as a juror.

43:16

Criminal

43:16

is created by Lauren Spohr and

43:19

me. Nnedia Wilson is our senior

43:21

producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising

43:23

producer. Our producers

43:26

are Susannah Roberson, Jackie Sajiko,

43:28

Libby Foster, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison,

43:31

and Megan Knane. Our technical

43:33

director is Rob Byers, engineering

43:35

by Russ Henry.

43:37

Julian

43:37

Alexander makes original illustrations