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an investment adviser no one investment broker information

0:43

i am sam sanders and as

0:45

host into and it's , weekly

0:48

show where we obsess about

0:50

the culture that matters matters

0:53

are you in the deep south east especially

0:56

when it's part of part franchise are

0:58

you making it up as you go along are

1:00

you just have wings and the fans wanted

1:02

the answer to that question to be

1:07

into it from bolger new

1:09

episode every thursday wherever

1:13

you get your podcasts

1:19

i'm simply shave a

1:22

retired methodist ministers

1:24

reverend i

1:27

practice the in

1:29

for churches

1:32

in new york city for

1:34

forty years and

1:36

the woman that i didn't know was

1:39

not a member of my church came

1:41

to see me and my office i can still see

1:43

are sitting there then

1:45

she told me that the her

1:47

husband

1:48

raped their daughter

1:51

a teenage girl and

1:53

, became pregnant pregnant

1:56

did i know where

1:58

she could her daughter get an abortion

2:01

and i didn't i

2:04

, not know what to do or

2:06

what the same i

2:10

didn't know didn't couldn't help or she lost

2:14

before the nineteen seventies it

2:16

was very hard to get a legal abortion

2:19

in this country different states

2:21

given different but on a different rules

2:24

rules the kept shifting over time

2:27

but for the most part you could not

2:29

get an abortion unless you are going to die

2:31

connecticut was

2:33

the first decriminalized he journeyed

2:35

in twenty one and state by state

2:38

the rest

2:38

the country followed suit inaction

2:41

to the journal of the american

2:43

medical association indoors the popular

2:45

practice among doctors say

2:48

to refuse to treat a woman suffering

2:50

from abortion complications

2:53

until she quote confessed

2:55

to breaking the law wealthy

2:57

woman would leave the country and

2:59

sided han where abortion was

3:01

sleeping that a woman

3:03

without the resources to fly around the world

3:06

had to find another way them

3:08

tried to induce a miscarriage on their own

3:11

snapped at at time were incredibly dangerous

3:14

the other option was to pay someone

3:17

to help apparently media

3:19

, that maybe not not

3:22

women would be given instructions like meet

3:24

me at a street corner this

3:27

is gilly in fact the story and sexuality

3:29

and religion at princeton and then

3:32

they would get in a car be blindfolded get

3:34

up on the table sometimes for putting for

3:37

and have the procedure performed on them with

3:39

the blindfold on never see the doctor space

3:41

and sometimes the procedure at work but

3:44

often it would mutilate

3:46

but often who had to leave her they would leave

3:48

or without an abortion and take her money

3:50

some woman would find themselves sexually assaulted

3:53

by the person offering the abortion whether

3:55

they were skills are unskilled

3:57

first of all she had the tampa

3:59

word to get into a place where the

4:02

abortion was going to happen she was met

4:04

by a man with a mask on

4:06

reverend barbara gerlach is talking about

4:08

a friend who got an underground abortion

4:10

in new york city so , couldn't

4:12

even see the faces the man who

4:14

was was

4:17

the abortions and was sent off

4:19

with nothing on

4:22

so there was

4:24

it was just very dangerous i mean

4:27

the numbers of women who were dying you

4:29

know some coroner reported

4:31

as early as nineteen fifty one that

4:34

he had seen twelve hundred women die

4:37

in the course of his career and this with this

4:39

was a national i mean

4:41

it's a national implications women were dying

4:45

because of these what were called back out your

4:47

backstreet abortions women

4:49

who'd gotten hurt by a back alley abortionist

4:52

or by trying to induce a miscarriage

4:54

would often wind up an emergency room

4:57

because of an infection or hemorrhaging as

5:00

doctors were confronted with the realities

5:02

of the situation some

5:04

cel justified in breaking the law to

5:07

perform a safe abortion association

5:10

this name's carol jersey gave them a name

5:12

doctors of conscience

5:14

then after world war two

5:17

there was a shift men returned

5:19

home and went back to work many

5:22

when

5:22

who'd been working starts working

5:25

a record number of babies were born there

5:28

was the so called the and

5:30

but many employers would do that they would fire women

5:32

after they became pregnant to enforce these norms

5:35

this is called pro natal some the sort of idea that everyone

5:38

should have children and this is pushing

5:40

the baby boom the families who has

5:43

three and four children in quick succession

5:45

birth control wasn't easy to get abstinence

5:48

is encouraged illegal ,

5:50

increased and sort of the number of deaths

5:53

and injuries in order to

5:55

get a safe abortion i'm pregnant

5:57

women would go to a psychiatrist

6:00

they're going to kill themselves a handbook

6:02

even circulated stitch

6:03

women had a seek a suicide

6:05

and if they were convincing enough

6:08

the psychiatrist might refer them for

6:10

an abortion

6:12

the nineteen sixty two a cycling

6:14

in sydney bolter wrote an

6:16

essay in the american journal of psychiatry

6:18

morning doctors to stay out of it the

6:21

wrote we know that women main

6:23

role here on earth is to conceive

6:26

deliver and raise children

6:36

leviticus nineteen is as

6:38

them this is amazing chapter

6:41

leviticus nineteenth for the holy

6:43

this code and the whole bible it's

6:45

in the middle of all these

6:47

rules about priests and what

6:49

they should do ritually grappa harold

6:51

couldn't have going to illinois and

6:54

it talks about how we should act

6:56

in terms of others a stranger the widows

6:58

debate or sense one

7:01

of the most famous as love your neighbor as yourself

7:04

saw , that says

7:06

that are most important sentence

7:08

the most important sentences sentences

7:11

not stand idly by

7:13

the blood of your of weekend

7:15

nappy idol when our neighbor

7:17

is our distress we

7:20

just never questioned the fact that motherhood

7:22

should be are free choice of woman shouldn't be

7:25

compelled to become a

7:27

mother she didn't want to be we

7:30

had a pastoral confidentiality

7:33

we could talk to women in

7:35

, way that our conversations conversations

7:38

privilege and i

7:40

thought well this i thought that i can do

7:43

i could help women a

7:45

number of clergy and a number

7:47

of congregations began to see

7:49

abortion there's

7:52

a choice that women should make it was a difficult

7:54

choice one that if she should struggle

7:56

with but they believe they

7:59

no

7:59

we need to prioritize the people who are already

8:02

living that are higher laws

8:05

that need to be followed because the

8:07

consequences will be tragic for women and

8:10

their families otherwise they

8:12

decided to take matters into their own

8:14

secretly

8:15

in women seeking an abortion sound

8:19

very unlikely place

8:21

rabbi than ministers all over the country

8:23

formed an underground network of dot

8:25

there's willing to provide safe abortions

8:29

they called themselves the clergy

8:31

consultation

8:31

the surface

8:33

in eighteen

8:38

this is going

8:53

the clergy consultation services

8:55

helmed by

8:56

howard nudie senior minister

8:58

of judson memorial church and new york

9:01

he held secret meetings and church basement

9:04

and traveled around the country to meet with clergy

9:07

in their homes and explain the plan

9:10

they also need to get the word out to women

9:13

so in may of nineteen sixty seven

9:15

the issued a public statement hard

9:18

to that were published on the front page of the new york

9:20

times the road we

9:23

leave it to religious duty to give

9:25

aid and assist

9:26

the all women with problem

9:28

pregnancies the was

9:30

to the phone number women could call

9:32

the phone number of stuff to an electronic

9:35

answering device the tape

9:37

on the machine would have a woman's voice

9:39

recorded on and it would simply tell

9:41

them the names and phone numbers and

9:43

times in which a clergy was available for counseling

9:46

and will give them different locations ota for

9:48

example if you're calling a new york they would say okay

9:51

so it's who's available in the bronx science hosts available

9:53

in brooklyn so and so's available in manhattan

9:56

and then the woman would call that minister rabbi

9:58

directly to make an appointment to

10:00

see that person in their office and

10:02

so when a woman came in she

10:04

would have to get a note in advance saying that

10:06

she was pregnant and how far along

10:09

and then she would come to the office the

10:11

clergy would sit down with her and they would review

10:13

options to on a continuous being

10:15

pregnant and have the dating keep the

10:17

baby you want to adopt the baby

10:20

out or do you want have an abortion if

10:23

they choose abortion and most women came

10:25

in knowing they wanted abortions and choosing

10:27

us the clergy would have a list of providers

10:30

ready and they would help women plant every

10:32

detail of their trip the

10:34

troops would never be in the same state or city

10:37

and which they met with the clergy and the reason they did this

10:39

was their lawyers that advise them saying

10:41

she send them over state lines to make prosecution

10:44

more difficult if you send them out of the country it

10:46

makes it even more so we'll

10:49

be putting themselves in an illegal

10:52

threat so some state

10:54

made it illegal to even talk

10:56

about or give portions information

10:59

or referral information like florida and

11:01

so it wasn't just getting

11:03

an abortion but talking about abortion giving

11:06

abortion information that made

11:08

it a criminal enterprise and so clergy

11:10

felt that they were taken great risks they worried that their phones

11:12

were being tapped they would say don't

11:15

say the word abortion over the phone they were

11:17

to use or problem pregnancy they

11:20

were worried with good reason that they

11:22

were being surveyed by police or district attorneys

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slash see our i am i n e

13:25

the clergy consultation service network

13:27

grew quickly the started getting

13:30

calls from clergy all over the country

13:33

hum wanted their names on the list

13:35

in other words have open the

13:37

depended on the congregation

13:39

they depended upon their location summer

13:42

wide open and so senior

13:44

ministers often would do this for tap on

13:46

unitarian congregations with the full knowledge

13:49

and support of the congregation's other

13:51

clergy to to covertly

13:54

up their heads down the referrals

13:57

some pay the price some ministers

13:59

were fi

13:59

from their post never to work

14:02

as a minister again there's a couple kiss

14:04

and iowa or ministers were fired

14:06

because they're congregation felt that they were do

14:09

in practice is our unethical or immoral

14:11

and that they didn't agree with that

14:14

you know for the most part i believe that

14:16

most congregations had some inkling

14:18

the burger dreams feature

14:21

of religion worm or a

14:23

being represented by the

14:25

the care of the orphans and widows

14:27

and their fortunes

14:30

on wanna have unintended pregnancies

14:33

and afflictions ah

14:35

it was a natural

14:37

for and my sense to

14:40

engage in this kind of of

14:43

work i

14:45

did

14:46

reverend robert hair he

14:48

was was and cleveland ohio

14:50

in nineteen sixty nine when he helped

14:53

in ohio woman visit doctor in massachusetts

14:55

for an abortion

14:57

returning a

14:59

, that you aren't broken

15:02

the law law that time

15:04

the doctors were and they were taken

15:06

a great a rave

15:08

for them that they were taken really

15:10

to take such a risk but

15:13

they said you know what you're doing is

15:15

a canal at the edge butcher

15:17

you're not actually in violation of

15:19

the law talking to counselees

15:24

bought a did work out that way

15:26

for me

15:28

drive back to ohio the

15:30

woman had a lot of cramping she

15:32

pulled over and when into a police and

15:35

send it up telling the police the whole story

15:38

including the names about the doctor

15:40

and my friend hair

15:42

i answered the phone call my the bedside

15:45

at six thirty or seven and more in one day

15:48

a was associated press haunting confirmation

15:51

that confirmation had been criminally indicted

15:54

in massachusetts

15:57

i had never heard of this ah

16:01

you know what to do about it but i could hear

16:03

the ticker tape run in ah

16:06

in the background what

16:08

were you been charged with charged with charged

16:10

worse aiding

16:13

and abetting a criminal

16:15

abortions

16:17

reverend here for the indictments for years

16:19

all the way up to the state supreme court and

16:22

the case eventually dismissed

16:27

how did ccs know that the

16:29

doctor

16:29

they are working with were trustworthy

16:33

who would hand

16:35

remember the ccs are their assistance

16:38

the poses pregnant women during frank

16:40

and interview and investigate the doctors

16:43

to a check or the clinic was though it's if was in

16:45

a safe part of town they would check out the sterility

16:47

of instruments they would get even be

16:49

up on the table right before

16:51

the procedure was about be performed

16:54

before they revealed their identity and

16:56

so that was the initial assessment the

16:58

spot assessment was followed up by inviting

17:01

each and every female client they

17:03

helped to , a review

17:06

of the abortion provider he

17:08

kind a d charge you what he said he was gonna charge

17:12

did he have sterile and sprint assess

17:14

everything tell us everything in there are these long

17:17

detailed letters from women who took some up

17:19

on us and so if there was a negative report

17:21

if something funny was going on they

17:23

would get a call from the clergy and basically because

17:26

clergy where the mass referral system

17:29

the had economic leverage

17:31

the convince doctors to reduce their seas

17:34

and sometimes to leave them altogether

17:37

individual , reported using

17:39

discretionary funds to help women make

17:41

trip that of the country rabbis

17:44

in new england remember congregants

17:46

putting remember congregants offset cause

17:48

the clergy were able to find so many doctors

17:51

who did such good jobs somebody medical

17:53

providers to sometimes i use non licensed

17:55

physician the offered a fantastic

17:58

job and how many women came away

18:00

not only unharmed

18:02

that feeling that the procedure was safe

18:05

quick efficient an affordable

18:07

after a few years the clergy

18:09

consultation service had operations

18:12

all over the country in some

18:14

places they were roman catholic creep

18:17

or nuns in the great

18:18

many the branches are helping hundreds and hundreds

18:20

of people per week it's a profound

18:22

amount of people that are coming to

18:24

them for help

18:26

the numbers of women coming to that made them

18:28

more confident about what they were doing

18:31

they apply

18:31

pressure to hospitals and lawmakers

18:34

and rode into newspapers or

18:36

the

18:36

the law was not and

18:38

never had that enforceable

18:40

the road the , debate

18:42

on abortion laws is escalating escalating

18:45

is not important any longer to play

18:47

a numbers game about illegal abortions

18:50

we do not believe and statistical morality

18:53

the argues that abortion laws disproportionately

18:56

hurt poor women especially women

18:58

of color grading quote the

19:01

present law by the way in which it's

19:03

circumvented is highly discriminatory

19:05

allowing remedies only for those

19:08

has access to money and private

19:10

doctors and private hospitals

19:13

because clergy were respectable

19:15

because they had a lot of social status

19:18

because the meetings they have can

19:21

be seen as privileged and not subject

19:23

to legal scrutiny there , a perfect

19:25

position to help women

19:27

on the ground but also to create

19:30

a mechanism to challenge abortion laws

19:32

and steal from their it snowballs

19:51

we'll be right back

19:54

i'm sam sanders and i hope the

19:56

show called into it is

19:58

a weekly so where we

19:59

about a culture that

20:02

matter

20:03

like revisiting the day when beyond

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say to her self titled album

20:07

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20:13

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but as a business executive april

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about coke and pepsi and

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they should talk about beyond say or

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will deep dive into why the internet

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play by harry potter harry potter and he

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realized that in the era of the internet

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a movie about a party corpse sells corpse

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20:53

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21:52

nineteen seventy new york

21:55

repeal it's criminal abortion law

21:57

the clergy consultation service

21:59

could said

21:59

them into new york for legal abortions

22:02

okay to or we did as stevens

22:05

obesity and this was true

22:07

of women in are all around

22:10

the state

22:12

particularly than women is steelers when the door

22:14

open at five thirty we would take them to

22:16

st louis william kirby's

22:19

was a university chaplin first that

22:21

stevens college and columbia missouri

22:23

and then later at princeton it

22:25

would get an american airlines flight

22:27

to dobbs ferry in new york

22:30

dobbs ferry would have a

22:32

, waiting for them at laguardia

22:35

and take them dobbs ferry

22:37

we had trained and dobbs ferry staff and

22:39

doctors we had a nurse on our staff

22:42

who would go to the clinics and trained doctors

22:45

the women would be there get

22:48

a get the abortion fairly quickly and

22:50

men have a couple of hours to see if she was

22:52

not going to hemorrhage then , would take her

22:54

back to the planes you'd be on the five o'clock

22:56

american airlines flight back to st louis

22:59

louis would pick her up and she'd be back in a dormitory

23:02

within the same day may ten may

23:05

and subs guy we sent our nurse

23:07

american airlines allowed us to

23:10

teach us to flight

23:12

attendants on that five

23:14

o'clock flight back to from laguardia

23:16

to st louis that they may have

23:19

may woman there who had may have abortion

23:21

and might be emerging and seat taught them

23:23

what to do

23:25

the how many women would you say you

23:28

supervisor oversaw putting on that flight

23:34

i estimate my

23:36

servant three thousand and nine and

23:38

we were i i don't

23:40

know the answer to that question think free

23:43

choice i told my secretary when

23:45

the cops can call my lawyer

23:48

first in my wife's seconds

23:53

the legislature and jefferson

23:55

city missouri called me

23:57

before a

23:59

then it harry

24:01

because if you indicated in missouri if

24:03

you is pointing towards the airplane and

24:06

suggested abortion you are guilty i

24:10

took the fifth amendment many

24:12

times that night

24:17

why don't you think more people know

24:19

about the fear from

24:21

what happened

24:22

we kept no records we

24:25

weren't taunting the

24:28

the police

24:29

and so nobody knew about

24:31

us except people who wanted an abortion

24:34

and the women knew about us

24:36

in the community

24:39

i nineteen seventy two the clergy

24:41

consultation services operating

24:43

in more than six hundred locations

24:45

across the country the

24:48

, year when rosie wade granted

24:50

women the constitutional right to have an abortion

24:53

abortion thirty shifted their focus to

24:55

making sure limited access to contraception

24:58

others went back to normal nice leading

25:01

their conquer he's

25:05

we have any numbers that how many women were

25:07

sir

25:09

in some ways it's impossible to know for sure exactly

25:11

how many women obtained an abortion through the ccs

25:15

and so it depends who do the math out

25:17

a concert a fully they helped upward of a quarter

25:19

of a million women and

25:21

i think that because they kept such

25:24

poor records are they would destroy records

25:26

out of necessity we don't

25:28

really have the exact number how

25:30

did you hear that i

25:33

discovered them by accident i was looking

25:35

at the legislative records and i'm looking at these

25:37

debates in the newspaper articles i

25:39

keep seeing mention of thirty consultation

25:41

surface

25:43

an hour

25:44

so surprised i said this

25:46

doesn't make sense this doesn't sync up

25:48

with any of the stories i've heard i

25:50

thought nicely at the time that religious

25:53

folk or conservative in a post abortion in

25:55

that abortion rights activists were secular

25:59

the get it

26:09

in may two thousand and seventeen the

26:12

, members of the clergy consultation

26:14

service medal judson memorial

26:16

church in new york city city

26:19

mark the fiftieth anniversary of their of

26:22

they came from all over from country most

26:25

of them had never met them person before

26:28

there was a church service there to the public

26:31

and the clergy consultation members sat

26:34

and the first two rows and stood

26:36

up to be recognized one by

26:38

one as their names were told

26:56

oh hello this is phoebe judge

26:58

you calling bs

27:01

how are you

27:02

where yeah thank you

27:04

the last time we talked to

27:06

was in new york at the sixty year reunion

27:08

it it was a celebration

27:10

he ever recall that

27:12

and here we are again

27:14

the as as imo

27:18

after the supreme court overturned rosie

27:20

weighed in june we caught

27:22

caught of the members of the clergy consultation

27:24

surface who lead talk to back in

27:27

two thousand and seventeen including

27:29

where the herald coup damn

27:31

the

27:32

how far a battle

27:35

against and unjust system

27:38

and two hours we shall we had tampa

27:41

something really significant

27:43

well you really never thought that

27:45

we would be as a so the situation

27:48

here we are

27:50

i was extremely distressed

27:53

reverend barber gerlach that it

27:55

would be overturned completely was

27:59

shocking

27:59

ah be i

28:02

thought that battle was want miss

28:04

got i'm just been more

28:06

pain for people

28:09

reverend family six how

28:11

old are you now

28:13

line day to there

28:16

what is it like at this point in your

28:18

life

28:19

just let it happen again

28:21

you're very kind of helpless

28:25

just sit back and watch it discouraging

28:32

we shouldn't be while so but the

28:34

i'm not

28:36

you're retired minister at this point

28:39

i , not in a position to be

28:41

one of the cutting edge people

28:44

on the action edge of this of

28:47

i

28:49

do think that there will be

28:52

com system and

28:55

of

28:56

the underground assistance that

29:00

well to our time somebody

29:02

experience that

29:05

we had to see him hi

29:08

prior to bro

29:10

the fight goes on and that's why we're

29:12

here to stay and fight for justice

29:14

all time

29:17

i think that the conversations workforce

29:19

so memorable that

29:21

we had with you and other members of members

29:23

of clergy competition service because

29:25

we don't automatically assume that religious

29:28

leaders will be the ones helping

29:30

women break the law

29:32

well man

29:35

, religious leaders breaking the law

29:37

as i really a nosedive we

29:40

did that and the civil rights movement

29:43

the i was in summer and

29:45

i recall that

29:47

very very vividly when that

29:50

the way

29:51

zelda we had to

29:54

simplify from we were breaking the law reagan

29:58

or right cause

30:00

i take years how did that

30:02

is the

30:05

heritage and their religious cause

30:07

the experience of counseling

30:10

women around difficult

30:13

reproductive choices

30:18

what what are the most profound experiences

30:20

that i had we're

30:22

always on

30:25

an honor a , of

30:27

being on holy ground

30:29

where people were making very

30:33

important decisions about their lives

30:35

and i could anyone who wants to do this work

30:38

the could it be like wow get in

30:40

their own values to serve as better

30:44

oh that they are willing to say are

30:46

the consequences that they could

30:49

have experience if

30:52

they you know are prosecuted

30:54

for their actions

30:56

i'm afraid at my age that our

30:59

let's see

31:01

the

31:02

the rear sight as a women's rights

31:05

in this area i don't have

31:07

a bigger my time the

31:09

that's very sad larry

31:12

sanders in a lot of changes in

31:16

, out and

31:20

we're going to get better the

31:22

matter where you're better i i i

31:25

have like given up hope unfortunately

31:28

what return

31:31

there will be many

31:35

deadly consequences and

31:37

the intervening years ago

31:40

size for lows

31:42

are eager to suffer the years

31:44

ahead and they will suffer

31:48

but i also only will it may

31:51

be as i said bad my lifetime

31:54

but as but as decay our

31:56

said it'll be act of justice

31:58

no i did

32:11

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