0:00

On

0:02

August fourteenth two thousand twenty

0:04

one, Patricia Whalen sat

0:06

down for a Zoom call with her friend, Anissa

0:09

Rizzuli. And

0:12

as soon as

0:14

I turned the camera on and

0:15

I saw her face, I knew

0:18

something was wrong.

0:21

Patricia Whalen was a judge in Vermont

0:23

for almost twenty years. She

0:25

also served as an international judge

0:28

on the war crimes tribunal in Sarajevo.

0:32

Her friend, Anissa Rasuli, is

0:34

also a judge. She's been

0:36

called the Ruth Bader Ginsburg of

0:38

Afghanistan, and she

0:40

was the first woman to be nominated to

0:43

the Afghan supreme council.

0:45

And she just said to

0:47

me, Patty, the telemen

0:49

are here. They're here. They're here in

0:51

the city. And it's

0:55

over. And

0:57

at that time, all the news reports,

0:59

if you remember, were all saying, oh,

1:02

you know, there was time yet. Nothing

1:04

you know, the Taliban would be held off

1:07

for six months or, you

1:09

know, just wasn't the immediacy

1:11

wasn't there. And,

1:14

you know, I said that to her. I said I just

1:16

listened to the news, and they

1:18

were saying that there's still

1:20

months. We have months to get ready for this.

1:23

And she said, no.

1:25

We don't. They're here. You must

1:27

listen to me.

1:31

III

1:33

was in shock, in

1:36

a deep shock. This

1:38

is judge Bessera Kazizata. Last

1:41

summer, she was in her office in Kabul when

1:43

a guard came and told her to get out that

1:45

the Taliban was everywhere. I

1:48

didn't know what should I do because

1:50

everything happened suddenly and

1:56

one of my colleagues who

1:58

is working as a

2:00

clerk. He said, oh, I have

2:03

a car and I could help

2:05

you to go to home.

2:07

So we decide to live our office

2:11

and go home. She

2:13

lived with her brother and his wife, and

2:15

she remembers that she and her colleague

2:18

both cried when he dropped her off.

2:20

We understand that was the

2:23

last day of our

2:25

work and jobs. After

2:28

that moment, we will not see

2:31

each

2:31

other. And we thought

2:34

maybe color one will come and

2:36

kill us. There

2:40

was a threat coming from the Taliban, of

2:42

course, and they were searching

2:44

for them. They knew this right away.

2:47

One judge said that members of

2:49

the Taliban showed up at her door.

2:52

She was able to escape

2:54

they trashed the house. They

2:57

destroyed it. You know, they knocked through

2:59

walls. They couldn't find her,

3:01

but they found her, and they shot her dog.

3:06

You know, that was day one. But

3:09

the other threat was the Taliban

3:12

released prisoners From the prisons,

3:14

they opened up the gates to the prisons.

3:17

When the Taliban entered Kabul, they

3:21

freed all the prisoners

3:23

in the main Kabul president Politjafi.

3:26

This is journalist Arjuna Carcar.

3:29

She was born in Kabul, but today

3:31

she lives in London. Where she reports

3:33

for the BBC, focusing on

3:35

Afghanistan. She

3:37

says that as soon as the prison in Kabul was

3:39

opened, Women judges began

3:41

receiving telephone calls from men they

3:43

had

3:43

sentenced. And they

3:45

were

3:46

now free and no one. There was no control.

3:48

No watch. On them.

3:51

They were seeking revenge. Revenge

3:54

on the judges. On the judges. I mean, this

3:56

was particularly true ironically for

3:59

family court judges. Judge

4:01

Whalen remembers that on the second

4:03

day of the takeover, She heard from a judge

4:06

who had presided over her case were a member

4:08

of the Taliban had killed his wife.

4:11

And she was doing the custody

4:13

portion of that case. And she

4:15

awarded the custody of his

4:17

children to the mother's

4:19

family. He

4:21

now wanted those children.

4:24

And the mother's family had moved

4:27

and had done a very good job

4:29

of somewhat covering their tracks,

4:31

and he couldn't find them. And

4:33

he made this assumption that the

4:35

judge would know where the children were.

4:38

So he came after her

4:40

and he threatened to kill her children.

4:43

If she didn't tell him

4:45

where the children were located. That

4:49

kind of threat we saw that

4:51

day and every day after. And

4:53

that's still going on in Afghanistan. They're

4:56

terrified. I mean, they've moved when

4:58

the Taliban took over the Supreme Court,

5:01

they had access to all of the

5:03

women's personnel files. So

5:06

they knew where they lived

5:08

and they knew who was in their

5:10

family. All

5:18

of women just are very worried,

5:21

and I thought I want

5:23

to change my house and go to

5:25

the some of relatives house.

5:29

But I when I talk with

5:31

my relatives that I

5:33

saw that they are very afraid, and

5:35

on that day, nobody's want to be in

5:37

dangerous because of me. So

5:40

none of your relatives would take you in.

5:42

Yes. Yes. Exactly. And

5:45

then when I read the

5:47

WhatsApp group, the all woman

5:49

judges said, please hide your documents.

5:52

And I had a lots

5:54

of document that shows that I was

5:56

a judge. I started to

6:00

to burn some of them. But

6:02

I thought there was a lot of books

6:05

and

6:05

documents, so I was

6:07

not able to hide

6:09

all of them. You

6:13

were getting calls, threats, phone

6:15

calls, houses being

6:17

searched, so they were moving from one place to

6:19

another place in Kabul, and

6:22

they were running for their life

6:24

because

6:25

they felt very scared

6:28

of the people who were freed from prisons.

6:31

Many judges reported that their

6:33

bank accounts were frozen. One

6:35

said she made it into the bank only to

6:37

see a man she recognized from her courtroom

6:40

eight months earlier when he'd been on

6:42

trial for murdering his wife. They

6:44

just were running for their lives. And I

6:48

remember speaking to them on

6:51

true WhatsApp.

6:53

Journalists, Zarunna Cargar.

6:55

Each one was so worried. We

6:57

were we were so careful that

7:00

I couldn't even mention their name

7:02

in my telephone calls to them. Yeah.

7:05

The fear that I have heard

7:07

in those voices

7:08

was, yeah, just unforgettable,

7:11

I can say. One

7:13

judge said that her father called her and

7:15

told her not to come home. He

7:17

was worried that the sight of a woman driving

7:19

a car might make the Taliban

7:21

angry, and that if they pulled her over,

7:24

they might search her car and discover that she

7:26

was a judge. A

7:29

senior judge in Afghanistan Supreme Court

7:31

described cutting open the lining of one of her

7:33

dresses to hide her law degree

7:35

inside. Within

7:37

twenty four hours, they lost everything.

7:40

And we're not just

7:42

talking about their homes, or

7:44

possessions, or cars, or physical

7:47

possessions that they had. They

7:50

lost their own personal

7:52

identity and their history and

7:55

everything they worked

7:55

about. They lost their ability to

7:58

speak. Judge Whalen is part

8:00

of a network of nearly seven thousand

8:02

women judges in more than a hundred

8:04

countries and territories around the

8:05

world. It's called

8:08

the International Association of

8:10

Women Judges. So

8:12

we just we just want to work

8:16

They created a twenty fourseven hotline

8:18

run by seven of the judges, including

8:21

Judge Whalen, They

8:22

created a database where the Afghan

8:25

judges could upload their visas

8:27

and identification

8:28

papers. And any other personal

8:30

documents or photographs they

8:32

wanted to keep

8:33

safe. And they began to

8:35

call and email everyone

8:37

they could think of. Government

8:39

officials, members of Congress,

8:41

members of parliament, contacts in

8:43

the state department, the Foreign Office,

8:46

the Ministry of Foreign Affairs,

8:48

People all over the

8:49

world. And we we

8:51

were so naive I I

8:54

think our biggest assumption at the

8:56

time was that, okay,

8:58

governments would help here. But,

9:00

you know,

9:01

Our governments were nowhere

9:03

to be found. I'm

9:06

Phoebe Judge. This is criminal. When

9:17

the Taliban took control

9:19

in August of twenty twenty one,

9:22

there were reports at the country's

9:24

borders were not passable because there

9:26

were so many checkpoints. So

9:28

the best way to evacuate was by

9:30

air. But the airport

9:32

was surrounded by a huge

9:34

wall. Thousands and thousands of

9:36

people were outside trying to

9:38

get in. There are

9:40

videos of the Tarmac packed

9:42

with people hoping to get on planes.

9:45

In one video, you can see people

9:47

trying to climb up the sides and hold

9:49

on to a US military airplane as

9:51

it moves down the runway. There

9:54

were reports of violence and

9:56

chaos, the Taliban were

9:58

beating people.

10:00

Essentially, the message

10:03

was get into the

10:05

air board any way you

10:06

can, but there was no helping hand.

10:10

Judge Whalen says that one

10:12

country that began to help the judges

10:14

was

10:14

Poland. Poland helped judge

10:16

Basira Kazizata evacuate.

10:18

She remembered

10:20

she got a call from a woman she didn't know

10:22

who identified herself as

10:24

Anna.

10:25

And she said, do you want to live your country?

10:28

I said, yes.

10:30

I want to live because

10:32

I'm in danger You

10:34

said, if you want to live your

10:36

country, just you have

10:39

two hours Please be

10:41

ready, and I said, I don't need two

10:43

hour. Just I'm ready to

10:45

live Afghanistan right

10:46

now. The woman told her

10:49

to go to the airport and that the

10:51

Polish special forces would help

10:53

her. Josh Kazizata

10:55

says she tried. But there were

10:57

so many people she couldn't get anywhere

10:59

near the entry gates. She

11:02

and her brother and sister-in-law tried

11:04

to help a little boy who was so hurt,

11:06

he couldn't stand

11:07

up. She says people were

11:09

just walking on top of him. We

11:11

just tried to find

11:13

a little safe place for the

11:15

boy and there was a

11:17

container and we

11:19

put the

11:20

voice under the container and

11:23

said, oh, please keep in here.

11:25

It

11:26

was very hard all the time when I

11:29

remind that situation, my

11:31

heart is broken.

11:35

Do you

11:36

remember it was so loud, no one

11:38

could hear anything, and people were

11:40

shooting guns. It was

11:42

overwhelming. She said she got

11:44

sick. Then I sent a

11:46

message for missus Anna. There

11:48

are missus Anna. And then

11:51

thank you very much for helping,

11:53

but there's a lot there was a lot

11:55

of huge people, and I

11:57

couldn't take the

11:59

gate. So I canceled

12:01

my decision. I don't want to live

12:03

Afghanistan. And she sent

12:05

me a message. Oh,

12:07

please be brave and is

12:09

strong. You can. This

12:11

is your last chance. Judge

12:16

Cassizata did eventually make it through

12:18

the gate. And onto a plane to

12:20

Poland.gradualin

12:22

says that the younger judges had

12:25

an easier time making it through

12:27

than the older ones. If

12:29

you were an older woman, it

12:31

was impossible to get through

12:33

that sort of human continent

12:35

of you know, primarily

12:37

young men stronger pushing.

12:39

It it was just a free

12:41

for

12:41

all. Many people were trying

12:44

to get into the airport through the

12:46

Abigate entrance.

12:46

To get there, people walk

12:49

through a sewage canal. And

12:51

while the water was

12:54

only up to most adults' knees,

12:56

if you were a child, you had

12:58

to carried. So if a woman

13:00

had more than two

13:02

children, for example, they couldn't

13:04

make it through the sewer. And

13:06

we're also talking about an incredible

13:08

amount of time. It took

13:11

more than twenty four hours to

13:13

make it through the sewer to a

13:15

gate. That's twenty four

13:17

awake hours struggling,

13:20

you know, with this massive amount

13:22

of frantic humanity. We'll

13:30

be right back.

13:41

You're nervous about these scientific

13:43

mysteries? Yeah. Yeah. Gonna do my

13:45

best. Oh, wait. No. We're adversaries. I'm

13:47

gonna beat you. That is the

13:49

attitude we want. Yeah. I'm not here to make friends.

13:51

Mhmm. Yeah. I'm here to guess mysteries.

13:54

Yeah. That's right. This

13:56

week on unexplainable, we're bringing back

13:58

our game show. We got three

14:01

potential show mysteries. Mystery

14:03

one? Oh,

14:05

no. That's terrifying.

14:08

Mystery two? A

14:11

mystery three.

14:12

Get out. Come on. Again,

14:16

this week is Avery truffleman, host

14:18

of the articles of interest podcast.

14:20

Thanks for having me.

14:22

I'm terrified She's gonna

14:25

try to guess which of these mysteries are

14:27

still mysteries? And which

14:29

one has actually recently

14:32

been solved. Lisa, what's the answer? What's

14:34

the answer? To find out, follow

14:36

unexplainable for new episodes

14:38

every Wednesday.

14:43

What happened to women judges in Afghanistan

14:46

in August of twenty twenty one had

14:48

happened before? In the

14:50

nineties, journalist

14:53

Arjuna Cargar was born in Kalbal in

14:55

nineteen eighty three. My

14:57

family, I come from an

14:59

educated family. My father

15:01

used to be a

15:02

minister. This was a time during

15:05

basically, the communist regime, the cold war

15:08

time. The country

15:09

had been invaded by the Soviet Union

15:11

in nineteen seventy nine.

15:13

And there were widespread protests. The

15:17

the communist regime collapsed, so

15:19

the Mujahedin took over with the

15:21

help of the US and other

15:23

countries. And civil

15:25

war erupted. And

15:28

during that civil war, it life

15:30

became very, very difficult. So

15:32

I couldn't continue my education as

15:34

a girl. Insecurities

15:37

were just widespread. As

15:40

a child, I didn't

15:42

really understand what was going on,

15:44

but I knew that life

15:46

is dangerous. And it was difficult.

15:48

There was no electricity anymore. There

15:50

was no so my life changed

15:52

completely from being

15:55

minister's daughter going to

15:57

the best school in Kabul

15:59

to not having electricity, not

16:01

having not being

16:03

able to warm our house, heat

16:05

our house in the winter because everything

16:08

just went from us.

16:10

The Taliban was formed in the midst of

16:12

the civil war. Claiming they would

16:14

restore peace and security after so

16:16

much fighting, and implement

16:18

their own interpretation of

16:20

Islamic law which banned women and

16:22

girls from working and going to

16:24

school. In nineteen

16:27

ninety six, they took control

16:29

of Kabul, And by nineteen ninety

16:31

eight, we're in control of ninety

16:33

percent of

16:33

Afghanistan. And

16:36

we were seeing the Taliban

16:38

coming and my

16:40

mother and my father decided that

16:42

we just we just cannot

16:45

continue in this situation because we

16:47

are five sisters that we

16:49

couldn't see any future

16:51

anymore. And it was dangerous

16:53

for him to live in Kabul.

16:56

And we escaped to

16:57

Pakistan, became refugees

16:59

there. During

17:01

this first Taliban takeover, Women

17:04

in Afghanistan were forced to stop

17:07

working and were not permitted outside of their

17:09

houses with their faces uncovered.

17:12

Unmarried men and women couldn't be seen

17:14

together. And women judges,

17:16

like Judge Marzia Barbara

17:18

Kahale, were in

17:19

danger. Tell me what

17:22

happened in nineteen ninety seven?

17:25

Nineteen ninety seven when

17:27

the Taliban came in

17:29

my city, Polycom Re, they

17:33

came looking for me, and

17:36

they came to my

17:37

house, my family house, When

17:40

the

17:40

Taliban took control of Afghanistan in the

17:43

nineties, judge Marzia Barbara

17:45

Kahill was working as a family

17:48

court

17:48

judge. She'd set up a shelter for divorced

17:51

women, helped women leaving abusive

17:53

marriages, and taught women how

17:55

to read. She

17:57

says nine or ten Taliban fighters broke into

17:59

her house with guns looking for

18:01

her. She says they destroyed the

18:04

entire house.

18:05

Her mother and brothers and sisters

18:08

were inside, and Marcia was

18:10

hiding. She hid

18:12

for

18:12

hours. Eventually, they left,

18:14

and she went to check on her mother.

18:17

She

18:17

was she was very very

18:21

I've said and her

18:24

face is very white

18:26

and depressed. She

18:30

just said, you know,

18:32

you have to leave, you know, just leave

18:34

and go and

18:36

we all decided the same the

18:39

same time to the

18:41

Fljombe to flee

18:42

to Pakistan. This was a

18:44

shock as for all of my

18:48

family.

18:48

Because your mother thought they'd

18:50

come back, they wouldn't stop looking for

18:52

you. Of course. Because the

18:55

Taliban told to my mother, they were back

18:57

and, you

18:59

know, when

19:01

we lived Afghanistan in with the people

19:04

leaving Polar Homi and

19:06

they know the Taliban,

19:09

took all our properties.

19:12

The

19:13

beautiful house my mother made,

19:16

they took everything from

19:18

our house. She continued

19:20

to receive threats

19:23

even years later. After

19:26

the Taliban lost power, She

19:28

returned to Afghanistan.

19:29

And then

19:30

one night when she was on her way

19:32

to visit her mother in the hospital. She was

19:34

hit by a car. When I

19:38

opened my eyes, I just

19:40

saw the doctors around me.

19:42

That's all I remember.

19:44

She says her legs and back were broken.

19:46

And

19:46

then she

19:47

says, she got a phone call.

19:49

They said,

19:50

how was our gift?

19:54

How was

19:54

our gift? Yes.

19:56

And so you knew

19:58

it was an assassination attempt because

20:00

of that? Yes. Of course.

20:02

Said to my mother, please forgive me. And

20:04

my fiance did nothing

20:05

wrong. Just go and be

20:08

safe. That's all

20:11

I remember. Today,

20:14

she lives

20:14

in the UK. When

20:17

I came in this country, I came with my with

20:20

my suitcase in my diary

20:22

and some of

20:23

my, you know, my paperwork

20:26

as well.

20:26

How we lost

20:29

everything, all our

20:31

achievement, sacrifice, and

20:34

everything we did work

20:36

hard

20:36

It's it's just really difficult for

20:39

me

20:39

for all of us, not just me.

20:52

Was

20:53

it different? Was there a big difference being

20:55

a a girl growing up in Afghanistan

20:58

as opposed to a boy

20:59

growing up? My

21:02

family were educated

21:04

people who, you know, allowed

21:06

not just me all my sisters and

21:08

brothers to have their rights and

21:10

and And sometimes,

21:14

you know,

21:16

and I was a bit naughty at

21:19

home. And when I

21:21

was to start to like

21:23

to running the bicycle

21:25

and I asked my dad, you know, the

21:27

things his voice is doing. I should do

21:29

I think that all the

21:32

opportunity

21:33

gives by more than my

21:36

mother by my dad to

21:38

me.

21:38

One day,

21:39

Marzhi was out with her father. so

21:42

I'm speaking to a woman and being

21:44

very respectful to her. Can I ask her

21:46

who was the lady that? And

21:48

he told me she's a judge. And I was

21:50

no idea what

21:51

judge, what's meaning by judge.

21:54

And that was really is is is

21:56

my thing in my life changed

21:58

that day. Tell me

22:02

a little

22:02

bit about that. What about this

22:05

judge? I think

22:07

my my dad was very

22:10

interested on her character,

22:12

but she had a very

22:15

strong character. And during

22:17

the way he was back to home,

22:19

and my dad told me about

22:22

she was the first female

22:24

judge in Polyphony.

22:26

Marsia decided that she wanted to be

22:29

like this judge. In

22:31

nineteen ninety one, she began her

22:33

career in Afghanistan's Courts.

22:35

You know, when the Taliban took

22:38

over the nineties, when

22:40

they entered Kabul,

22:43

they were in these

22:45

trucks and that had loud speakers on

22:47

them and they went through the streets and they

22:50

told women they had to leave their jobs and they

22:52

should go home. Judge

22:55

Patricia Whalen, they could no

22:57

longer be out in

22:59

public. But they

23:02

came after the judges. Those

23:07

they specific quickly came for them.

23:09

They came into the courthouse. They

23:11

were the ones that the Taliban

23:13

at that time perceived as

23:15

a danger. And I've never

23:17

forgotten that. You

23:20

know, these women for

23:22

in Afghanistan themselves

23:25

are part of

23:27

really a more privileged class.

23:29

Of people just simply because they were

23:32

educated. And this was in the

23:34

nineties. So, you know, they

23:36

were highly educated.

23:38

Many of them had master's degrees. They

23:40

were scholars in Islamic law.

23:43

And after the Taliban took over

23:45

the first time, they

23:47

were all removed from the bench.

23:50

The

23:50

Taliban appointed their own judges.

23:53

Many had no legal education or experience.

23:56

Judge Whelan says some were

23:56

illiterate. And after two

23:59

thousand one, when women judges

24:01

slowly began to return to

24:02

the bench, They could find themselves working

24:05

alongside a Taliban appointed

24:07

judge. It was

24:08

common for three judges

24:10

preside as a panel of our court

24:13

case as opposed to one judge

24:15

hearing the case. And the

24:17

woman would be sitting there. The

24:19

woman judge would be sitting there. Who

24:21

had been through law faculty, had

24:24

master's degrees in

24:26

in law, in specific

24:28

subjects. And they would

24:30

be rendered silent

24:33

by the two men sitting

24:35

next to them.

24:43

We'll be right back.

24:56

After

24:59

September eleven

25:03

two thousand one, President George w

25:05

Bush announced that the United States

25:08

military had launched attacks on

25:10

Taliban targets in Afghanistan

25:12

pushing the Taliban out of power.

25:14

During

25:14

the United States, twenty

25:17

year occupation of the country, the

25:19

US government and NATO,

25:21

tried to install a western style

25:24

democracy. An

25:25

enormous amount of money was put

25:28

into the court systems by

25:30

western countries. And of course,

25:32

they also urged

25:34

and advocated courts

25:37

that were probably not organic

25:40

to the Afghan legal

25:42

system, such as courts to

25:44

eliminate violence against women,

25:46

courts that oversaw terrorism,

25:49

cases, courts that were

25:51

specifically focused on

25:53

drugs and narcotics. These

25:56

were all new and people

25:58

would argue imposed on

26:00

the legal system. Very

26:03

few men wanted to be on those

26:05

courts. I mean, they were staffed

26:08

by women who

26:10

were willing to take

26:13

on these issues, which

26:15

were it was dangerous to be

26:17

a judge in Afghanistan, especially

26:20

if you were a

26:20

woman. There's a finally

26:23

women were coming into every aspects

26:26

of life. It took us and

26:28

women over twenty

26:30

years to make this presence

26:33

accepted in the

26:33

society. In a middle

26:36

dominated society, they made their

26:38

presence accepted.

26:39

Journalism, Zarunna

26:41

Carcar. Even one of the women judges was telling me, like,

26:44

at the beginning, when

26:46

she started working as a

26:48

judge, she said, like, if where

26:50

the people came to her in

26:52

court rooms, she wouldn't get enough

26:55

respect because they felt. People

26:57

felt non normal ordinary people of the

26:59

society felt that, oh, a woman

27:01

cannot make judgment or not a

27:04

good judgment. Or not the same

27:06

judgment as a man can make. But

27:08

she said by working every day,

27:10

by making judgments

27:12

that we felt that we were

27:14

giving justice to people, to the

27:17

victims. She said, like,

27:19

day by day, the attitude was

27:21

changing. Day by day, the

27:23

presence of women were felt that

27:25

this is exactly it doesn't matter if you're

27:27

a female judge or a male judge,

27:30

It matter what matters is that you're

27:32

able to serve justice. And she

27:34

said people were finally seeing

27:36

it. But it was still dangerous.

27:38

Judge Pacira Kazizata says

27:41

she received threats all the time,

27:43

sometimes by mail, and sometimes

27:46

in person. She says one

27:48

day after she made a decision, a

27:50

man appeared outside of her office and said

27:52

he was gonna kill

27:52

her. I said, I will

27:55

cut your head and I

27:57

am a member of Taliban. I

27:59

said, that was my decision. If

28:01

you are not agree with that,

28:03

you could appealing

28:06

for that.

28:06

But you don't have right to treat

28:09

me. This is my office, and I

28:11

am a judge, and that

28:13

was our decision. you

28:15

This is your right to appeal,

28:17

but you don't have right to

28:19

strike me. So I went to

28:21

the room court and I shared this

28:24

matter with the chief of the course and

28:26

said, I'm not here

28:28

about this man, but

28:30

I know because I am

28:32

a judge, Wendy, they will kill me like they

28:35

kill other woman judges.

28:37

But at least, I want to

28:39

save this three card in the court

28:42

If some days happened with

28:44

me at least my family knows,

28:47

what was the matter?

28:51

I mean, they

28:53

would go to court

28:56

and never know if they would be

28:58

come home that night. And

29:00

I saw that even

29:02

in two thousand and seven at

29:04

a relatively safe time

29:06

to be in Afghanistan,

29:08

that that was true

29:11

then. Two of our

29:13

judges were

29:15

assassinated one of those judges was a

29:17

friend of mine judge, Sakea Harare,

29:19

and she had come

29:21

and stayed in Vermont.

29:24

And was part of a judicial

29:26

education program that I was running at the

29:28

time. It shows just

29:30

a wonderful you

29:34

know, sweet person. And

29:38

on, you know, her and

29:40

another judge, another woman judge were

29:43

both

29:43

assassinated, you know, on their way to

29:46

work right outside their courthouse.

29:51

I knew then that things had really

29:53

changed. The

29:56

Taliban was regaining its power.

29:58

In February of twenty twenty,

30:01

the Trump administration signed an agreement

30:03

with the Taliban. All

30:05

US forces would be out by May

30:08

first twenty twenty one. President

30:11

Biden extended the deadline agreeing

30:13

for move troops

30:15

by the end of August.

30:16

And on August fifteenth,

30:19

the Taliban entered the

30:21

capital, opened the prisons, and

30:23

the women judges in the country knew they had to

30:26

leave. So so

30:29

seven of you are

30:32

running a twenty four seven

30:34

hour hotline. That's

30:35

right. And

30:38

and you've accomplished you've

30:41

you've gotten hundreds of women out at this

30:43

point. Of the two hundred and

30:45

seventy judges that were in

30:47

Afghanistan, two

30:49

hundred and fifty of them asked

30:51

to be evacuated. Of that

30:53

two hundred and fifty,

30:55

we have gotten out a hundred and eighty five

30:57

women judges. But we also made

30:59

a commitment to get their families

31:02

out. I mean, I think as women, it just

31:04

made no sense to us to have

31:07

the what they called the principal

31:09

come out. We assumed

31:11

they would come out with

31:13

their families. And so

31:15

we did that. And that's

31:18

over a thousand people altogether

31:20

so far. We have

31:22

sixty five judges left in Afghanistan

31:25

and their

31:26

families, and we we will

31:29

get them out.

31:35

Josh Whalen says that since the Taliban takeover,

31:37

judges have been evacuated

31:39

to the United Arab Emirates,

31:42

Pakistan, Greece, UK,

31:45

Poland, Korea, Romania,

31:48

Germany, Ireland, Brazil,

31:51

Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Iceland,

31:53

and the US. But

31:57

she says it's a much smaller list of countries

31:59

that are open to allowing the judges

32:01

to stay long term. What

32:04

are you hearing now? The

32:08

situation is much worse,

32:10

and some of that is just

32:12

the, what's, you know, winter

32:14

is coming. The economic

32:16

crisis in Afghanistan

32:19

is

32:21

you know,

32:23

beyond critical. People are

32:26

struggling for food and basic

32:28

necessities. The

32:30

women who probably at one time had

32:33

access to resources don't

32:35

anymore. And I would say

32:38

everybody in Afghanistan is

32:40

is struggling.

32:42

The judge is

32:45

the thoughtful justice. Judge

32:48

Marzia Barbeque Hale. Deferred

32:50

for justice, default for

32:53

humanity, default to

32:55

bring a balance of

32:57

law in the in the

32:57

court, but suddenly they

33:00

became the more vulnerable people.

33:03

What

33:03

is this? this world,

33:06

I don't know where

33:08

is the justice.

33:12

You know, one

33:14

of the things I'd wanna say is

33:17

that Germany

33:19

has recently opened its doors

33:22

and the US has also

33:24

finally agreed

33:26

for our judges,

33:28

you know, that they have a path forward

33:31

and hopefully can come into

33:33

the US. But

33:36

by and large, doors

33:40

were shut completely to

33:41

Africans. And, you

33:44

know, we're able

33:47

to focus on these women

33:49

because they're our colleagues. But standing

33:51

behind them are the

33:53

vast majority of women and

33:55

children of Afghanistan that

33:59

have absolutely

34:04

no future. I

34:08

I just don't know how

34:14

we can

34:16

not see that. And

34:18

I'm afraid

34:19

that it's

34:21

fading from, you

34:23

know, the minds of

34:25

not just in the US, but in the

34:28

world. And

34:33

I just hope

34:34

we could do better.

34:36

Two weeks ago,

34:39

on December twenty fourth, The

34:42

Taliban government banned women

34:44

from working for local or international

34:46

humanitarian aid organizations in

34:49

the

34:49

country. According to one UN

34:52

survey, many aid organizations,

34:54

including Save the Children, have had

34:56

to shut down their

34:58

operations.

34:58

A few days before that, the government

35:01

banned women from attending college.

35:03

They were already prohibited

35:05

from attending middle

35:07

and high school.

35:08

Currently, the highest level of

35:09

education available to Afghan

35:12

girls is

35:14

sixth grade.

35:16

Judge Cassizata's sisters

35:18

and Nieces are still in Afghanistan.

35:23

My sister said She was very

35:25

disappointed and safe. I don't know this situation

35:28

will continue for

35:30

how

35:31

long. But what should I do with my

35:34

children? They need to be educated. And

35:36

I said, it's very for

35:38

now, it's very

35:40

important to be

35:42

just alive.

35:48

What

35:49

do you think would happen if if you

35:51

went back to Afghanistan now?

35:52

It is clear

35:54

if if I want

35:56

to go back to Afghanistan,

35:59

it is clear

36:01

that I cannot

36:03

live in there. They

36:06

didn't allow me

36:08

to live.

36:33

Criminal is created by Lauren

36:36

Spohr and

36:38

me. Niti Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Bishop

36:40

is our supervising producer.

36:42

Our producers are Susanne Robertson,

36:45

Jackie Sejico, Libby Foster, Samantha

36:47

Brown, Lilly Clark, and Megan

36:50

Kane. Our technical directors are

36:52

our buyers. Engineering by Ross Special thanks Carol

36:54

Jackson and Jeffrey Stern.

36:57

Julian Alexander makes

37:00

original illustrations For each episode of

37:02

Criminal, you can see them at

37:04

this is criminal dot

37:06

com. If you like the show, tell a

37:08

friend or leave us a review. It means

37:10

a lot. We're on

37:12

Facebook and Twitter at criminal show and

37:14

Instagram at criminal underscore

37:16

podcast. Criminal is recorded

37:18

in the studio's of North Carolina Public

37:21

Radio, WNC, were part

37:23

of the vox media podcast

37:25

network. Discover more great shows

37:27

at podcast dot voxmedia dot

37:30

com. I'm Phoebe Judge. This

37:32

is criminal.