0:00

Criminology is a true crime podcast

0:02

that may contain discussion about violent

0:04

or disturbing topics. Your

0:06

discretion is advised. Hello

0:37

everyone and welcome to episode 287

0:40

of the Criminology podcast. I'm Mike

0:42

Ferguson. And this is Mike Morford.

0:45

Morford, how you doing buddy? Doing good.

0:47

Getting a little bit of a final Christmas

0:49

shopping done and just trying to get

0:51

everything out of the way. How about you? Yeah,

0:54

yeah. Same here. We're going on a trip

0:57

the week right before Christmas. That's

0:59

kind of like the one week a

1:01

year where everyone in my family is

1:03

off. So we're

1:06

going on a cruise and we're really looking forward to it.

1:09

It sounds like it'll be a lot of fun, but that's a

1:11

good time of year to get together with the family and spend

1:13

some time together. Yeah, yeah, it is. It

1:16

makes Christmas a little tough just because

1:18

you got to get everything

1:20

done even earlier in

1:23

advance to take off and

1:25

go somewhere. But yeah, we're all

1:27

excited. Let's go ahead and

1:29

give our Patreon shout outs. We only

1:32

had one, but it was Shannon Armstrong

1:34

and we really appreciate that support. Yeah,

1:36

thank you so much Shannon and thank you to everyone

1:39

else that supports the show and for anyone that's thinking

1:41

about doing it, head over

1:44

to patreon.com/criminology and we can't

1:46

thank you enough. So Morford, we

1:48

talked about the holidays and you

1:50

know, it is kind of hard to believe that

1:53

they're coming up as quick as they are. This

1:56

year seems to have flown by at least for

1:58

me. There may be some out

2:00

there. they're listening Who want to pick

2:02

up a great last minute holiday gifts?

2:04

maybe for to crime friend? Or maybe

2:06

they just want to treat themselves to

2:08

something cool while we have an idea?

2:10

How about a trip to the annual

2:12

True Crime convention? Crenshaw? Yeah. Crime

2:15

Towns happening May thirty first to June

2:17

second at the Gaylord Opryland in Nashville,

2:19

Tennessee. It's a chance to come out,

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rub elbows with all your favorite true

2:23

crime celebs. And. Ketchup of all your

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Favorite pie testers. And if

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you're going to go, why not save

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a bit of money in the process?

2:32

If you go to crimeson.com and register

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for Kranjcar Nashville, use our promo code

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criminology Check out Not going to save

2:39

youth ten percent on your standard bent.

2:41

He should be a lot of fun and more fun. I hope

2:43

to see that. I. Buddy now that we have

2:46

all of out of the way. Was. Jump

2:48

into this week's case and. Yet.

2:50

This is one that may bring back

2:52

some memories for a lot of people.

2:54

Was this case made a ton of

2:56

headlines and it was sort of groundbreaking.

2:59

As far as crimes go, he just

3:01

wasn't something that you heard a lot

3:03

about. But. With the

3:05

way that news travels quickly. In.

3:07

Today's world. This. Kind

3:09

of casings, a lot more com. Were.

3:12

Talking about the case of Mary

3:14

Kay Letourneau. A thirty four

3:16

year old teachers in married mother

3:18

who began in elicit an illegal

3:20

relationship. With. Her twelve year

3:23

old student, Billie select. When.

3:25

She was arrested end the relationship

3:27

came to light. The. Tabloids couldn't

3:29

get enough to distorts. What followed

3:32

were bunch of twist sense. If

3:34

you're not familiar with this case,

3:36

you may be very surprised. At

3:39

what the final outcome was. There's

3:41

a new series may have heard

3:43

about recently out on Netflix called

3:45

May December. It's. Loosely based

3:47

on the true story of Mary

3:49

Kay Letourneau and belief allow. Mary.

3:52

Started Or lights on January Thirtieth. Nineteen

3:54

Sixty Two. Born. Mary Catherine

3:56

Smits in Tustin, California. She.

3:59

Was better known door for. family and friends as Mary

4:01

Kay. She had three older siblings

4:03

and three younger siblings too. Sadly,

4:05

when she was 11, her three-year-old brother

4:07

drowned in the pool. After graduating

4:10

from Cornelia Connolly High School, an

4:12

all-girls Catholic school, she attended

4:15

Arizona State University. In

4:17

1984, Mary Kay married

4:19

fellow Arizona State University student,

4:21

Steve Lutorno. Soon, they

4:23

had their first child. The family

4:25

ended up moving to Anchorage, Alaska, where Steve

4:28

was a baggage handler for Alaska Airlines. They

4:30

only lived there for one year, moving to

4:33

Seattle, Washington, when Steve was transferred there

4:35

for work. While in Seattle,

4:37

the couple had their second child. In

4:40

1989, Mary Kay received her teaching degree

4:42

from Seattle University. By 1989, she

4:45

was teaching second grade at Shorewood

4:47

Elementary School in Burien, south of

4:49

Seattle. It was during this time

4:52

that Lutorno's marriage began to unravel. Neither

4:54

of them were satisfied in their marriage and

4:57

both had affairs with other people, but they

4:59

stayed together. Within a few

5:01

years, Mary Kay began to teach

5:04

older students in the sixth grade.

5:06

In 1996, she had one student in

5:08

her class for the second time, a

5:11

12-year-old named Villy Foulau.

5:13

He had been in her second grade class and

5:15

ended up in her class again for sixth

5:18

grade. They had been close when

5:20

he was her student in 1991.

5:23

Mary Kay would later tell People

5:25

Magazine of their relationship, There

5:28

was a respect, an insight,

5:30

a spirit, an understanding between us

5:32

that grew over time, describing it

5:35

as the kind of feeling you

5:37

have with a brother or sister,

5:39

a feeling that they're part of your

5:42

life forever. Mary Kay became

5:44

a mentor to him. Villy

5:46

had a talent for art. He

5:48

was great at drawing and she

5:50

took notice. She encouraged him to

5:52

practice, even buying him art supplies.

5:55

She also encouraged him to write poetry

5:58

And took him on educational trips. To.

6:01

Museum. Em or if

6:03

I didn't say it up front I probably

6:05

should have. But is this a case that.

6:07

I just remembers so well. And

6:10

I don't want to give any of the case

6:12

a way for people who don't really know the. The.

6:14

Whole story but I

6:17

remember. Every time. Someone.

6:20

Was interview. Who's involved in

6:22

the story? It was like

6:24

can't miss tv. You. Wanted to

6:26

hear what the people involved had

6:29

to set. Over. The and

6:31

I want to go back to. These.

6:33

Comments made by Mary Kay

6:36

Letourneau to People Magazine. Talking.

6:38

About you know there was a

6:41

respect in inside spirit. Is.

6:43

It is a kind of up

6:45

a brother sister saying. It's

6:47

none of that, even though you may.

6:50

Find. It kind of strange to

6:52

see saying this about a very

6:54

young kid. Screams.

6:57

Criminal. In A: she's

6:59

trying to help this kid. She's

7:01

mentoring this kid. He's. Great

7:03

at art. She's trying to. Your

7:06

foster that trying to. Help

7:08

him get better at. Obviously

7:10

we know things are going to.

7:13

Go. Much further than this. In.

7:16

I think. For. Someone that has. Children

7:18

I want my teachers teach to

7:20

take an interest in my kids.

7:23

What? They're into. Maybe.

7:25

Hot them expand their. The

7:27

horizons as far as. Developing.

7:30

Their skills or their interests. Those kinds of

7:32

things. What? I find.

7:34

Kind. Of odd is. An

7:37

animal. The etiquette is and I'm sure there's teachers out

7:39

there. And and your wife? I know the teacher. Maybe

7:41

she'd have some insights on the splits. What's.

7:44

The. Protocol for. Teaching

7:47

litter students to a museum.

7:50

You. Know it's one thing if it's class trip

7:52

in everybody's going on on this trip. But.

7:54

When a teacher takes it upon themselves

7:57

to teach your child one on one.

7:59

To me. that's a little bit odd, but again,

8:01

I don't really know what the etiquette is on

8:03

that. Yeah, I'm sure

8:06

it does happen and

8:08

there's nothing wrong with it

8:10

whatsoever. Now my thought is

8:12

that there are probably a lot of districts

8:16

that maybe have a

8:18

policy that specifically

8:20

prohibits that. And

8:22

maybe that policy came about as

8:25

a result of this case or others like

8:27

it. I don't know. When

8:30

you mentioned that my wife was a teacher,

8:32

maybe it's why we were so invested,

8:34

for lack of a better term,

8:37

in this case. We were

8:39

together when this case

8:42

was unfolding and my wife was a

8:44

teacher. So it was of great

8:47

interest to her. In January

8:49

1996, Mary Kay

8:51

suffered a miscarriage. She also

8:53

learned that her father had terminal cancer. None

8:56

of these things are ever easy to go through, but

8:58

her marriage was already rocky and

9:00

these events put more stress on the marriage.

9:03

She was feeling alone apparently and

9:05

began to take Vilya more trips, even

9:08

taking the Alaska ones. Now

9:10

to some, this might seem like the first

9:12

warning sign that the relationship between teacher

9:14

and student wasn't normal across the line. It

9:17

seems like teachers would set boundaries with their students,

9:19

keep their personal lives separate and not take

9:22

students on trips. But some other

9:24

people may feel that this is a case of a

9:26

teacher who cared about a student and wanted to help

9:28

him. Vilya's home life was

9:30

unstable. His mother worked long hours

9:32

in a bakery and his father was in

9:34

and out of prison. So some people may

9:36

look at this as his teacher taking an interest in

9:39

him and trying to nurture his

9:41

artistic and intellectual abilities. I

9:43

do think one of the things that we're

9:45

going to be talking about a lot throughout

9:48

this episode is where

9:51

is the line and when

9:54

does someone cross

9:56

that line? Now We talk

9:58

about that in a lot of episodes. But

10:00

I think this one especially.

10:02

It's. Going to come up in

10:05

many instances. Add yeah,

10:07

let's. Take. A look at

10:09

a teacher is taking the student

10:11

on vacation. Okay, Does.

10:14

That crossed the line. And. I

10:16

dig a lot of people would

10:18

look at it and say yeah,

10:21

absolutely it does. But then things

10:23

went even further. Billie. Slept

10:25

over it. Marry case house

10:27

often. Was. He proposed to

10:29

her with the ring he had found on the

10:31

ground. She. Took off her wedding

10:34

ring from Steve litter know and

10:36

replaced it with villains. After

10:38

that, she wore it each day at

10:40

school, taking care to switch back to

10:43

her wedding rings before she saw her

10:45

husband. So. Again, We.

10:47

Look at the law. Know he's going

10:50

on a vacation with her. He's.

10:52

Sleeping over at her

10:54

house, And I. Been.

10:56

On a large most people would

10:58

say. At least when it came

11:01

to their own children. This. Is

11:03

not something that. They. Would one? Or.

11:06

Think was appropriate. Can. I

11:08

think that the line to me is clearly

11:10

cross. Sleeping over the teachers house is it

11:12

would be one thing if. If

11:14

your child is. Good. Friends

11:16

with the teachers child and they just happen

11:18

to be a teacher having a sleep over

11:20

at your friend's house and that's one thing

11:23

but to. You. Know as far as

11:25

we know he wasn't friendly with her kids. And

11:27

he seemed to be sleeping over there. Spend

11:29

time with her. To me, that's just. For.

11:32

Acing such a line that. I'd

11:34

deftly put my foot down and start

11:36

asking questions. One. Thing is

11:38

very clear. And that is at

11:40

some point whatever relationship or bond Mary Kay

11:43

head with Billie. It clearly cross

11:45

the line. At Once Horny in

11:47

the morning on June Nineteen, Ninety Ninety Six.

11:50

Mary. Chain really were found by authorities

11:52

in her van. Which. Was part of

11:54

the Des Moines Marina. They. Had both

11:56

been in the back of the van, but Mary Kay

11:58

jumped into the front When officers are. In

12:01

the back, Villy pretended to be asleep,

12:03

but the officers weren't buying his story. Neither

12:06

of them gave up their real names, and

12:08

12-year-old Villy claimed that he was Officers

12:11

took them both in for questioning, but they

12:13

both denied that anything untoward had happened.

12:16

After his real age was discovered, Mary

12:18

Kay claimed that she was just babysitting Villy

12:21

at the time. A detective called Villy's

12:23

aunt, who said he was allowed to be with

12:25

Mary Kay. A second call, this

12:27

time to Villy's mother, confirmed this. Neither

12:30

of them were told that the two had been spotted under

12:32

a blanket in the back of her van, only

12:35

that they were found together. Both of them

12:37

would later say that it would have been a different story if

12:39

they had understood exactly what was going on. That

12:42

Mary Kay and Villy were having a sexual

12:44

encounter. And I want to clarify

12:47

that having sex is not the right term

12:49

in this discussion. Sex is

12:51

something that happens between two concerning adults, so

12:53

let's not mince words. Mary Kay

12:56

was raping Villy. And I

12:58

do think that there is a

13:00

discussion to be had here, because,

13:03

you know, it seems obvious

13:05

that members of Villy's

13:07

family knew that he

13:10

was with Mary Kay. And

13:12

I got the sense more that

13:14

they even knew that the two were maybe

13:16

even alone. That according

13:19

to them, they had no

13:21

idea that this

13:23

relationship had

13:25

in any way turned sexual.

13:29

Because if they had,

13:31

then they said things would

13:33

have been different. And for

13:35

me, this goes back to the whole idea

13:37

of if your kids are spending

13:39

an unusual amount of time with

13:41

their teacher outside of school, that

13:44

would have set off alarm bells for me. Yeah,

13:46

I get what you're saying. I can also

13:49

see a scenario where the

13:52

family is happy

13:54

that someone is taking an interest

13:56

in Villy, they're trying to, you

13:58

know, Further

14:00

his artistic abilities and.

14:03

Maybe. They would never say. Has

14:06

yeah, this one man

14:08

this married. Mother. Would.

14:11

Have a sexual interest in their

14:13

child. I didn't see that as

14:15

well. It turns out

14:17

the distrusted submarine was not their

14:19

first time together. According to

14:22

Villi the first time was asked

14:24

the latour know whole. Steve.

14:26

Was away for work and the

14:28

for a maternal children just barely

14:30

younger than beliefs were sleep in

14:32

another room. In. February. Nineteen

14:34

Ninety Seven. Steve. Maternal

14:36

Sound hidden Loveland from Mary Kay

14:39

the Silly Select. He told one

14:41

of his family members who was

14:43

the one to sound the alarm.

14:45

They. Called Cps and school

14:48

informing them of the

14:50

inappropriate relationship. Billie. Was

14:52

less than two years old. Then.

14:55

The Lord's her nose oldest child. So.

14:57

I think that helps put it into a

15:00

bit of. Perspective. And.

15:02

We have to talk more about. Steve.

15:05

Finding these letters. And

15:08

realizing. Just. Exactly

15:10

what his wife was

15:12

do. Nights. He may

15:14

have had an inkling he may have

15:16

had. Some. Thoughts that.

15:19

Okay, She spending too much

15:21

time with Sam. I don't

15:24

know exactly what thoughts were going

15:26

through his mind. But. He

15:28

thinks defining of the letters. Removes.

15:31

All doubt. About. What's going on?

15:33

It. I had to be shocking to find those letters

15:35

and. Whether. Had an inkling you're not as had

15:37

to be a. Very. Hard.

15:40

Thing. To do was. But. Then. What?

15:43

Does he do in that situation? Does

15:45

he call the police and as he

15:47

and front her. And. In the

15:49

situation he told someone else may answer

15:51

to the authorities but it had to

15:54

be quite a. Quite. An ordeal.

15:56

When. That happened. A. note for

15:58

nike ninety seven Mary Kay

16:00

Laturna was arrested and charged with second-degree

16:03

child rape. This was almost an

16:05

entire year after they had been found together in the

16:07

back of her van. News of

16:09

the arrest shocked area residents as

16:11

well as faculty at the school and

16:13

the headlines were even more unbelievable when it

16:15

was revealed that she was seven months pregnant

16:17

with Villy's baby. He was in

16:19

seventh grade and facing fatherhood. This

16:22

was undeniable evidence that the two had been

16:24

intimate. Mary Kay couldn't pretend that

16:26

they had a normal and appropriate mentor-mentee

16:28

relationship even if she wanted to. She

16:31

was released on bail and for her part

16:33

Mary Kay said that this wasn't her original

16:35

plan to take advantage of Villy. In

16:38

fact, she later told People magazine that

16:40

she was confused by her feelings for him at

16:42

first saying, I didn't know what it

16:44

meant but then she added almost

16:46

in contradiction, I felt that one

16:48

day he might marry my daughter. In

16:51

May of 1997, while

16:53

Villy Foulau was just 13 years

16:55

old, he and Mary Kay, by

16:58

then 35, had their

17:00

first child together. It was a

17:02

baby girl that they named Audrey. Reality

17:04

and anger set in for

17:06

Mary Kay's husband, Steve Laturna

17:08

and understandably so. He was

17:11

mad. He told the

17:13

San Bernardino County son it's

17:16

craziness, just absolute craziness.

17:19

If she thinks I will let that continue

17:21

in front of my children, it will be

17:23

over my dead body. But

17:26

unfortunately, their four children were

17:28

aware of pretty much everything

17:30

that had happened. Steve

17:32

told the paper it was flaunted

17:34

right in their face, the whole courtship

17:37

of this boy and their

17:39

mother. So we talked a little bit

17:41

about Steve finding these

17:43

letters. Okay, I'm sure

17:45

he wasn't happy. I imagine

17:48

a lot of discussions being had

17:50

about, you know, what do these

17:52

letters mean? What is really going

17:54

on? But when

17:56

your wife has a

17:58

child with this student that's

18:00

talked about in the letters, it

18:03

pretty much removes all

18:05

doubt. I mean, there's

18:08

really no getting around it.

18:11

There's no talking your way out

18:13

of it at that point. Also,

18:15

let's go back to this

18:18

brother-sister relationship. That makes

18:20

that statement even more creepy. And

18:23

then the other part is, you know,

18:25

it's kind of Steve talking about the

18:27

fact that his kids were involved and

18:29

they saw all of this kind of

18:31

go down, at least the

18:34

courtship portion. You

18:37

can understand why this guy would be

18:39

hopping mad. Yeah, it's one thing

18:41

for Steve as an adult to have to deal with this,

18:43

but for kids that are younger

18:45

than Billy is in this situation, they've

18:48

got a lot on their plate as it is, just being kids.

18:50

And, you know, I'm thinking back to when I

18:52

was at age, you're learning

18:54

about yourself and your family and

18:56

how things are supposed to be. And then

18:58

all of a sudden, this grenade

19:00

gets thrown in and really blows

19:03

everything up. I feel really

19:06

bad for the kids in this situation

19:08

because what were they thinking? You know,

19:11

my mom's leaving my

19:13

dad for someone who's younger, who's

19:15

fairly older than me. Just

19:18

an unimaginable situation, I

19:20

think, for these kids. Well,

19:22

how many times do we talk about, you know,

19:25

the lives of serial killers and,

19:27

you know, a lot of things

19:29

that happen in their

19:31

childhood that seems really messed up.

19:34

I'm not saying these kids are going to go on

19:36

to be serial killers, but these

19:39

are formative years. So what

19:42

are they learning that it's okay

19:44

to have a sexual relationship

19:46

with, you know, someone who's just a

19:48

couple of years younger than me at the

19:50

time? Asked

20:00

the judge for a light sentence saying

20:02

that her son would carry this guilt with him as

20:05

long as she was in jail I feel

20:07

Mary has been punished enough for her mistake Mary

20:09

Kay did receive a light sentence Though

20:12

the total sentence was seven and a half years She

20:14

would only have to spend six months of that in prison

20:17

The rest would be suspended provided she comply

20:19

with the court's orders. She

20:22

had to attend sex offender treatment programs Take

20:24

medication to treat bipolar disorder and

20:27

most importantly of all She had to

20:29

cut off all contact with Billy These

20:31

all should have been very easy things to do for someone

20:33

who had made a mistake Just wanted to

20:35

get their life back on track, but spoiler

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23:20

Directed by Martin Scorsese, Killers

23:22

of the Flower Moon is

23:24

a masterpiece and it's now

23:27

available on digital. Lily Glanstone

23:29

alongside Academy Award winners, Leonardo

23:31

DiCaprio and Robert De Niro

23:33

give powerful performances in this

23:36

riveting film based on a

23:38

true story. By the epic

23:40

Western crime saga, Killers of

23:42

the Flower Moon on digital

23:44

rated R from Apple original

23:46

films and Paramount pictures. In

23:49

January of 1998, Mary

23:51

Kay was released from prison. By

23:54

February, she had already begun to

23:56

see Billy Folow again and had

23:59

stopped taking... it

26:00

that is probably so telling.

26:03

You, you get the sense that it's

26:05

almost as if no matter

26:08

what all these people have been saying,

26:10

including prosecutors and

26:12

judges and, you know,

26:15

let's not forget people online weighing

26:17

in or people putting

26:19

their two cents in. She

26:21

just can't wrap her head around the

26:23

fact that this relationship

26:26

is wrong. Yeah. She's

26:28

an adult. She's a teacher.

26:31

So you think she has to

26:33

comprehend that it's against the law to have

26:35

been doing what she was doing and then

26:37

to go to court and then them say, okay, you

26:40

get out on this one condition or these

26:42

series of conditions, and if

26:44

you break these conditions, you go back to jail.

26:46

It's pretty clear, pretty black and white.

26:49

Yet she chose to, for whatever reason, to

26:51

just not pay attention to those rules.

26:54

In March of 1998, Mary

26:57

Kay and Audrey, her daughter with

26:59

Villy, were on the cover of

27:01

People magazine. By then, Villy had

27:03

dropped out of high school in October of

27:05

1998. While back

27:07

in prison, Mary Kay gave birth

27:10

to her second child, another daughter

27:12

with Villy Folau. Villy's mom,

27:14

Suna, was granted custody of both

27:16

girls. That year, a friend of

27:18

Mary Kay's gave an interview to

27:20

people saying, I would imagine

27:22

they will get married. As soon as

27:25

she gets out of prison, the two of them

27:27

want to be together. They're drawn

27:29

together like magnets. Mary

27:32

Kay backed that thinking up, telling

27:34

Oprah Winfrey in a jailhouse interview,

27:37

this young man is the love of my life.

27:40

King County attorney, Rebecca Rowe,

27:42

who spent almost two decades

27:44

prosecuting sex offenders, pushed

27:46

back on that notion, telling the

27:48

spokesman, that's what all offenders

27:51

say. Guys say that about

27:53

six year olds they abuse. I

27:56

Think that brings to light perhaps what may

27:58

be a bit of a double standard. Wow.

28:00

What Mary Kay did was crudely

28:02

wrong. An. Illegal. There.

28:05

Wasn't. The same

28:07

overwhelming shock in our. The.

28:09

Maginot, the teacher in the situation

28:12

was amazed and the student being

28:14

abused and becoming pregnant. Was.

28:16

A twelve year old girl. It seems

28:18

as though the anger would have been a

28:20

lot more. Palpable, I'm. Not

28:22

sure why there seems to be a difference in the

28:25

outrage, but at the end of the day. In

28:27

either situation, A teacher taking

28:29

advantage of their twelve year old student is

28:32

wrong. Period. Flat out.

28:34

So. Let's talk about maybe this

28:36

double standard a little beds. I

28:39

mean, make no doubt about it.

28:41

There were. Tons of people.

28:44

Who thought what? Mary Kay Letourneau.

28:47

Was. Doing had done was

28:49

completely wrong. But. You.

28:52

When we talk about ten of

28:54

slipping. Where. This was

28:56

a male teacher and a

28:58

twelve or thirteen year old

29:01

female students. Would. There have

29:03

been the same coverage by. People.

29:05

Magazine. Would. They have

29:07

been interviewed. Would. Oprah?

29:10

Have interviewed this man.

29:13

And I just don't. See.

29:15

It would have happened the same way. Where.

29:18

This man was allowed to say

29:20

kind of that. You know this

29:22

girl was his soul mate and

29:25

they were meant to be together.

29:27

And in all that. I

29:29

also think there may have been a

29:31

difference and Censor a really do. Yeah.

29:34

Them it. it's a good point or

29:36

two senses. The sentence could have

29:38

been different. Spite. The crime

29:40

being. Same. Thing. But for

29:42

whatever reason it it seems like

29:44

society is more. Setting.

29:47

Of it being in this

29:50

situation or. A

29:52

female teacher in a male student. even

29:54

though it's the same crime. With.

29:56

Deftly seems like there's more were outraged,

29:58

more anger when it says. a

30:01

man doing this, but either way it's clearly wrong.

30:04

Steve Lauterno spoke to Oprah from Alaska

30:06

and he wasn't pleased that Suna Falao

30:08

seemed okay with her son being with

30:10

Mary Kay. He told Oprah, I've

30:13

heard that and basically that makes

30:15

me sick. Whether or not Suna

30:17

condoned the relationship and I'm really not

30:19

sure that she did, it was eventually going

30:22

to happen and there were two children in the mix.

30:24

So maybe she felt that if she pushed back

30:26

on the relationship, she would push her son

30:28

away and out of her life. So it's hard

30:31

to know what she was thinking without being in her

30:33

shoes. In May 1999,

30:35

Steve and Mary Kay

30:37

Lauterno were officially divorced. He

30:39

was also granted full custody of their children

30:42

which you know does kind of seem

30:44

like a no-brainer. When you look at

30:46

her charges and their situation, he

30:49

moved back to Alaska and eventually remarried

30:51

trying to start his life over and

30:54

escape the headlines. In 2002, Suna Falao

30:56

sued the Highline

30:59

School District and the

31:01

Des Moines Washington Police Department for

31:03

negligence due to their failure to

31:05

act and protect her son. The

31:07

suit asked for one million dollars.

31:10

According to her, it was impossible

31:12

for Villy to go anywhere without

31:15

being recognized. As his attorney,

31:17

Cyrus Vance Jr. put it, everywhere

31:19

he goes, he is known as

31:21

the kid who slept with his

31:23

teacher. Plus, there had to

31:25

be repercussions from becoming a father

31:28

at such a young age. Besides

31:30

childcare, he would likely need therapy

31:32

which is not cheap, Cyrus

31:35

Vance explained. Villy did not

31:37

have the emotional maturity to

31:39

understand the consequences of

31:41

what he was getting into. Yeah,

31:44

I think that really underscores the

31:46

fact that he was a

31:48

12-year-old having this inappropriate relationship

31:50

with a teacher, an adult who knew

31:52

better. She knows what

31:55

can happen, what the long-term

31:58

outlook might be. He is a

32:01

12 year old kid so he didn't

32:03

know that going and so I think

32:05

it really backs up that he was a child and

32:08

Couldn't fathom what he was getting into yeah,

32:11

I think that's absolutely right 12 year

32:13

olds don't always understand the

32:16

consequences of little

32:18

things let alone something

32:21

like this and again we

32:23

say understand the consequences,

32:25

but you know that almost

32:27

makes it sound like He

32:30

had a choice and I don't

32:33

know what choice he had Or

32:36

if he had the understanding that he even

32:38

had a choice. I don't know

32:40

that Reportedly Mary

32:43

Kay had seduced Billy by offering to take

32:45

off one piece of her clothing for each

32:47

answer He got right it was

32:49

basically strip tutoring in 1996

32:52

a janitor found the two in a faculty restroom with

32:54

the lights off and Incredibly nothing

32:57

was done the two were then

32:59

spotted slow dancing together in front of students

33:01

and teachers However, their first

33:03

actual sexual encounter wasn't

33:05

until summer break and it happened

33:08

off-campus Ultimately a jury

33:10

found that neither the school district or

33:12

the police department were responsible for what

33:14

Billy went through And I

33:16

do think you know, that's a that's a

33:19

tough one because if

33:21

you can't prove that the

33:24

school knew something

33:27

Was going on or that the

33:29

police knew something was going on. I

33:32

don't know how you can Find

33:34

them or hold them responsible in

33:37

the school Obviously, she didn't

33:40

have a record of any kind So it's

33:42

not like they hired someone with history of

33:44

this and failed to protect

33:46

Billy. It wasn't on school grounds Although

33:49

some of the stuff was witnessed on school

33:51

grounds. So in a way I do

33:54

blame the school You know, they're slow

33:56

dancing at a dance together the janitor

33:58

catches them, you know, why? It was

34:00

amazing! Done! Maybe. That could

34:02

have prevented Woodville. He ultimately went through.

34:05

As far as the please, unless they have

34:07

a tip that something's happening or. Something

34:10

along those lines. Where.

34:12

Are they supposed to come in? You know it's not like

34:14

anyone called them and made them aware this is going

34:16

on. Why? And I would say the

34:18

same thing about the school. Yes,

34:20

maybe some people witnessed something

34:22

start. They saw something that

34:24

might have been an inappropriate

34:27

but was that communicated to

34:29

the school administration? And

34:31

I'm assuming it wasn't because if

34:33

they could have proved that A was,

34:35

I think maybe the the trial would

34:38

have gone different. While.

34:40

She was in prison. Mary Kay seemed.

34:43

As though she had constant

34:45

violation trying to slip letters

34:47

to Villi. Spent eighteen total

34:50

months in solitary. Eventually.

34:53

She started following the rules and

34:55

became a model prisoner. She recorded

34:57

books on tape for the blind

34:59

dislike serial killer at Temper. She

35:01

also tutored other inmates, putting her

35:04

teaching skills to work behind bars.

35:06

The. Prison she was then had a quiet. That.

35:09

She sang in and see

35:11

regularly attended Catholic mass. In.

35:14

August of two thousand and four. Mary.

35:16

Kay was released from prison. Just.

35:19

Before her release Billie was interviewed

35:21

by Seen T V to that's

35:23

what he was thinking and feeling.

35:25

He said i don't know what

35:27

my feelings are right now. But.

35:30

I know that I do love her.

35:32

Once she was free. There. Was

35:34

still a no contact order and points

35:37

between her and Billie who was now

35:39

An.but they were able to get drunk.

35:42

As required, Mary Kay registered as

35:44

a level Two sex offender in

35:46

the state of Washington. She.

35:49

Would never be able to teach again

35:51

and until she completed three years of

35:53

treatment. She. wouldn't be allowed

35:55

around any mine even her

35:58

own biological children without

36:00

supervision. Now as consenting

36:02

adults, there was nothing that could legally

36:05

keep Mary Kay and Villy apart and

36:07

on May 20th 2005, the 43-year-old Mary

36:10

Kay and her now 21-year-old former

36:13

student, Villy Folau, were married

36:15

in a ceremony at a

36:17

Woodinville, Washington winery. Mary Kay

36:19

became a paralegal. Villy tried

36:21

his hand at DJing, going by

36:23

the name DJ Headline. In May

36:25

2009, they appeared together for

36:28

Hot for Teacher Night at a sports bar

36:30

in Seattle, not shying away

36:32

from their notorious relationship. In

36:34

2010, Mary Kay's oldest son

36:36

was Steve LaTorno had a child. Now

36:39

she and by extension 28-year-old Villy

36:41

were grandparents. And I

36:44

think more if this is another

36:46

big part of the fascination of

36:48

this case for many people, you

36:50

had what Mary Kay did with

36:53

Villy when he was young.

36:55

And we've talked about it, it

36:58

was criminal, it was horrible. She

37:01

was sentenced, she did the

37:03

time that she was required to do. And

37:05

then you know you kind of have this second

37:08

part of it where they

37:11

were both now adults

37:14

and in love with each other. And

37:16

you know they were on talk shows and

37:19

they were being interviewed and I

37:21

think people were just kind of

37:23

fascinated with how this

37:25

thing continued to play out over

37:28

the years. Yeah and that's the

37:30

part that's hard for me to grasp

37:32

personally is how this started

37:35

as something purely wrong

37:37

and illegal. But as

37:39

adults they were still together and

37:41

in love and there's nothing that could be

37:43

done legally to stop them.

37:46

So there's a real contrast there

37:49

between when this started and then later on

37:51

in their relationship. Yeah it's almost

37:53

like there's two different acts to

37:56

the story. Though he made

37:58

the best of it all, things weren't all. always easy

38:00

for Billy. In 2015, he told 2020 about his struggle

38:02

saying, I'm surprised

38:07

I'm still alive today. I went through

38:09

a really dark time. He said he

38:12

was 15 years old with baby girls

38:14

and wasn't allowed to speak to their mother,

38:17

his quote, partner and his

38:19

mentor. It was a lock to

38:21

handle even without all of the scrutiny. Billy

38:23

said, I don't feel like I have the

38:25

right support, the right help behind me from

38:27

my family, from anyone in general. I mean,

38:29

my friends couldn't help me because they had

38:31

no idea what it was like to be

38:33

a parent. I mean, because we were all

38:36

14, 15.

38:38

And just think about this for a minute, more

38:41

from member back to what it was like

38:43

for you being a, let's say a 14, 15 year old kid.

38:47

Things were hard enough getting through

38:49

school, navigating crushes,

38:52

trying to make the sports teams, you know,

38:55

things like that. Well, for

38:57

Billy, he was a quasi

39:00

celebrity. People wanted to

39:02

know what was going on with him

39:04

because of this criminal act

39:08

that had transpired. And

39:10

here he was the father of

39:12

two girls at an age

39:15

where kids can't really

39:17

even take care of themselves at that point.

39:20

It's been a while now, but I'm thinking back to when I was 14,

39:22

15 years old, and you

39:25

know, I wanted to sleep in, I wanted

39:27

to hang out with my friends, I wanted to go out

39:30

and play sports after school,

39:32

you know, I was just

39:35

getting interested in girls, that kind of thing. So

39:38

you have that versus someone now

39:40

that has to change diapers and

39:42

stay home and spend time

39:44

with their young babies,

39:46

basically. It's just a

39:48

life altering experience and talk about

39:51

having to mature really quickly. I'm

39:54

sure this really was a wake up call for him

39:56

as to what it's like to be responsible.

40:01

more if I didn't become a parent until I was 27

40:03

years old. And even

40:05

then I remember how tough it

40:07

was. I just can't imagine

40:10

having that, you know, kind of thrust upon

40:12

me at the age of 14,

40:15

15, but that's where I go back to a child,

40:19

not understanding consequences.

40:22

That's why the adults

40:25

are supposed to understand and

40:27

not cross the line. But that's

40:30

not what happened here. We know that. As

40:32

a parent, Billy didn't want his daughters

40:34

to start dating too young and made

40:37

sure to warn them about ending up in a relationship

40:39

with the wrong person. He told ABC

40:41

news, the reason for me telling

40:43

them that was just from out of experience. It's

40:46

really interesting to me that he went on to

40:48

explain that a relationship could lead to something that

40:50

you think you wanted back then. You don't

40:52

really want it. Maybe years later,

40:55

it's clear that despite not leaving Mary Kay,

40:58

Billy knew what happened was wrong. He

41:00

said, I don't support younger kids

41:02

being married or having a relationship

41:04

with someone older. He said this when he

41:06

was 33 and Mary Kay was 55. And

41:10

again, I remember watching, you know,

41:12

these types of interviews because

41:14

I was fascinated by, you know,

41:17

what transpired over the years

41:20

and what their relationship

41:23

became. And it's like

41:25

you said, more interesting to hear

41:27

Billy say that he

41:30

wouldn't want his daughters to

41:32

have to go through what he did,

41:34

even though he ended up, you

41:38

know, marrying their mother, saying

41:41

he was in love with her. It's

41:43

just, there's just a real dichotomy

41:45

to this story that I think

41:48

grabbed people and fascinated

41:50

them. In 2017, Steve

41:53

Lauterno was contacted by People magazine

41:55

for an interview, but said only

41:57

I've moved on and I. nothing

42:00

to say and really when you

42:02

think about it how can you blame

42:04

him? He didn't ask to be kind

42:07

of thrust into the spotlight it

42:09

couldn't have been easy

42:11

for him any of it and

42:14

we mentioned it right he got remarried

42:16

he went on with his life I'm

42:18

sure the last thing he wanted to do was

42:20

kind of dredge all of this back

42:24

up in May of

42:26

2017 Billy filed for

42:28

a separation from Mary Kay after

42:31

this the two were off

42:33

and on as they tried

42:35

to reconcile their relationship Mary

42:37

Kay's attorney David Gerke told

42:39

People magazine I'm convinced they

42:41

were totally in love it

42:44

may mean nothing but timing wise

42:46

this was the year that Billy

42:48

turned 34 the same age that

42:50

Mary Kay was when the

42:52

two began their inappropriate relationship

42:56

maybe Billy looked at other college-aged

42:58

kids and high school kids his

43:00

daughter's classmates and realized

43:03

just how big that 22-year

43:05

age gap really was

43:08

and it wore on him in

43:11

February of 2018 Billy

43:14

made headlines again when he crashed

43:16

the Mercedes-Benz driving in Burrian Washington

43:18

he failed the first part of a field sobriety

43:20

test but it was ended after Mary

43:23

Kay arrived unseen and told him not to

43:25

cooperate any further as a result

43:27

he was charged with a DUI that same

43:29

year a couple gave an interview

43:31

to Sunday night a new show in Australia

43:34

this awkward interview inspired a scene in

43:36

the Netflix movie May December and it's

43:39

one of the scenes everyone is talking about

43:41

online because it's so unbelievable as

43:43

described in People magazine the scene

43:45

played out with Mary Kay asking Billy over

43:48

and over who was the boss

43:50

who was the boss who was the boss

43:52

back then who was the boss back then

43:55

Billy shifts his glance back and forth between

43:57

her and the interviewer Matt Doran as the

44:00

Billy begins to look even more uncomfortable.

44:02

She says to him, who was? Just

44:04

say. Still looking back and

44:06

forth, Billy says, this is ridiculous. This

44:09

is getting weird. After a

44:11

very long time, he finally says, I was

44:13

the pursuer, bringing Mary Kay's prodding

44:15

to an end. This episode

44:17

was taped months before the couple finally

44:19

separated, and it seemed very uncomfortable.

44:22

It really didn't seem like relationship that could be saved

44:24

at that point. It seemed as

44:26

if Mary Kay really didn't feel. She

44:29

had done anything wrong. And

44:31

even in 2019, she was

44:33

making that claim, telling People Magazine,

44:35

if someone had told me, if

44:38

anyone had told me, there is

44:40

a specific law that says this

44:42

is a crime, I didn't know,

44:45

claiming that she didn't realize it

44:47

was illegal to have sex with

44:49

a minor. And I

44:51

really thought this was kind of ridiculous,

44:54

to be honest with you more. I

44:57

mentioned kind of watching everything

45:00

I could about this case.

45:03

That included a lot of interviews

45:05

with Mary Kay Lauterneau. She

45:08

seemed on the surface to be

45:10

a fairly bright

45:12

individual. I just can't

45:15

imagine that she didn't know that

45:17

it was illegal to have

45:19

sex with a 12-year-old boy.

45:22

I find that very hard to believe. Yeah,

45:25

and why she didn't

45:27

just own it and say, okay, I made a mistake, I

45:29

should have done it, but I did, and I did

45:31

my sentence, and I moved on.

45:34

She just sort of dismissed it as if

45:36

she didn't know to begin with, and I just

45:39

think that's a real cop-out. She

45:41

was an adult, a teacher. You

45:44

think she would know what's appropriate,

45:46

what laws need to be

45:48

followed in a position to be caring

45:50

for kids and teaching them. So

45:52

I don't buy it for a second. No,

45:54

I really don't either. It

45:57

seems to me that it's almost... as

46:00

if she just couldn't

46:02

bring herself to admit

46:04

to that part, right?

46:07

That it was wrong and

46:09

she'd already done her time. She could have

46:11

said, Hey, you know, what I did

46:13

was wrong. I did my time. We're

46:16

both adults now. We're in love. She

46:18

could have said all of those things,

46:20

but to kind of keep

46:22

with the, I didn't know

46:24

it was wrong. That just,

46:26

it doesn't ring true. In

46:29

2019, the separation between Mary Kay

46:31

and Villy was final. They

46:34

remained friendly though. On July 6th of

46:36

the following year, 2020, 58 year old Mary Kay Luterno

46:40

passed away at home in Des Moines,

46:42

Washington. Villy and her children were

46:44

said to be by her side until the very end. She

46:47

had been diagnosed with colon cancer just six

46:49

months earlier. Her father had also died

46:51

from cancer at age 70. A

46:53

joint statement from the Folau and Luterno family

46:56

read Mary fought tirelessly against

46:58

this terrible disease. We did

47:00

our very best to care for Mary and

47:02

one another as we kept her close and stayed

47:04

close together. According to a source

47:06

close to Villy, he talked to her

47:08

right before she passed and they said everything they

47:11

needed to say. That

47:13

is so young. And I

47:16

think, you know, you kind of have to,

47:18

to look at it in the

47:20

light that. Yes, she

47:22

did these things. She

47:25

paid the price for doing

47:27

what she did. But then

47:30

there's this other side where, you

47:32

know, she was a mother. She had

47:34

family. She was diagnosed

47:36

with this, you know, horrible cancer

47:40

and died, you know, fairly young,

47:43

despite marrying Mary Kay and agreeing

47:45

that he was with her consensually

47:48

in 2020, Villy Folau told Dr. Oves

47:52

that he wouldn't make the

47:54

same choices she did. Villy said,

47:56

I couldn't look at a 13 year

47:58

old and be attracted. to that

48:00

because it's just not in my

48:02

brain. It's nothing that I'm attracted

48:04

to. I mean, we all have our

48:07

preferences and that's just not something that

48:09

I would go towards," he explained. I

48:11

found it telling that when asked what

48:13

he thought he would do, if he

48:16

found himself attracted to someone

48:18

22 years younger than him,

48:20

in a minder he replied, I'd

48:23

probably go and seek some help. So

48:26

this is interesting in the

48:28

fact that he obviously knows

48:31

that what happened was wrong.

48:34

And I don't know that Mary

48:37

Kay ever got to that

48:39

point, at least publicly. Now

48:41

behind the scenes, that might

48:43

have been a different story, but it's

48:46

very obvious that he's

48:48

telling Dr. Oz how

48:50

wrong this was and that he could never

48:53

do that, never would do that. I

48:55

think it goes back to an adult

48:57

looking at a situation versus a

49:00

12-year-old because when he was 12 and

49:03

he got in this relationship, he didn't know

49:06

what he was doing. And

49:08

as this adult looking back, he's

49:10

pretty much saying that this is wrong. It's

49:12

not something that should have happened. So

49:16

just a strange situation. Yeah,

49:19

and I think it's important to

49:22

recognize that he

49:24

was so young that none

49:26

of the blame goes on him. He

49:29

was a child. All

49:31

of it has to go on

49:33

Mary Kay Lauterno, the adult. One

49:36

weird thing worth mentioning is that

49:38

Mary Kay's father, John Schmidt, had

49:41

two secret children resulting from an

49:43

affair that was revealed in 1982, just one year before Billy

49:47

Flau was born. Schmidt's was

49:49

running for Senate and his chances at winning

49:51

his Senate race were dashed by

49:53

this news becoming public. The

49:55

woman he had an affair with was a former

49:57

student of his at Santa Ana College, where

50:00

taught political science. Right around

50:02

the time he was diagnosed with terminal cancer,

50:05

Mary Kay started this inappropriate relationship

50:07

with Billy. It's possibly

50:09

just coincidental, but with Mary

50:11

Kay's suspected mental health issues, it's

50:13

possibly related. Perhaps the news

50:15

Mary Kay got about her father affected

50:17

her decision-making. According to Seattle-based

50:20

investigative reporter Linda Byron in

50:22

a People magazine article, Mary

50:24

Kay Latorno was devastated by her

50:26

father's betrayal. Michelle Lobdell, Mary

50:29

Kay's childhood best friend, said, I

50:31

noticed a very, very palpable change in her

50:34

after the story about her dad broke. She

50:37

ended up imitating her father, Lobdell

50:39

pointed out, saying, she repeated

50:41

what he did, but on a much

50:43

more ugly scale. And this

50:45

is a pretty, you know, interesting connection

50:47

that a lot of people, you know,

50:50

make. I do think one

50:53

thing we probably haven't touched on enough

50:56

is Mary Kay's suspected mental

50:58

health issues. We did mention it

51:01

earlier, talking about being treated

51:03

for, you know, bipolar

51:05

disorder. I don't know what

51:07

the full extent of her

51:09

mental health issues were, but you

51:12

would have to think if there were

51:14

some there, they played a role, some

51:17

role, in how all of

51:19

this went down. And maybe if

51:22

it was severe enough, or

51:24

depending on what she was dealing with, maybe

51:26

it could have affected her

51:28

decision-making. And that's something I don't

51:31

think we truly know the answer to. But

51:33

it does kind of go back to a

51:35

statement that her attorney made early on, saying

51:38

that Mary Kay Latorno

51:40

needs to be protected from

51:42

Mary Kay Latorno. And I

51:44

think that's kind of what he was getting

51:46

at with that statement. that

52:00

to deliver a baby boy, which

52:02

was Billy's first biological

52:05

grandchild. Georgia told People

52:07

magazine, I think maybe at first

52:09

it would be kind of shocking

52:11

because I am her baby. But

52:13

after that, she'd be the most

52:15

excited grandmother to be. She

52:18

said, Billy was excited to

52:20

be a grandfather and already buying baby

52:22

stuff for her and giving

52:24

her hand-me-downs from her baby sister.

52:27

As we mentioned, this case was a

52:29

sensation in the news, both early on

52:31

and years later. The tabloids went

52:33

absolutely wild with it. Legally

52:36

and morally, there's no such thing as consensual

52:38

sex with a child. Instead of

52:40

calling it what it was, the sexual assault

52:42

and grooming of a child, the media

52:44

referred to this as a tryst or an affair

52:47

and a relationship, painting the

52:49

two as star-crossed lovers just fighting to be

52:51

with each other. Some called Mary

52:53

Kay a cradle robber and others

52:56

called Billy jailbait. They called them

52:58

lovers and it was treated as a

53:00

fun sex scandal and not something

53:02

shameful and damaging. Yeah, there

53:04

were multiple People magazine articles

53:06

about this case, multiple interviews,

53:09

including, you know, the one with

53:11

Oprah, and I'm not taking

53:14

a shot at People magazine or Oprah,

53:16

but it does seem as though the attention

53:18

that, you know, they

53:21

gave to the story kind of

53:24

glamorized the inappropriate relationship.

53:26

And something we touched

53:28

on earlier was, you

53:30

know, kind of what if this was

53:32

a male teacher abusing a 12 year

53:34

old female student, a

53:37

story from 1998 in the Seattle

53:39

times noted, if this

53:41

was a 35 year old man who impregnated

53:43

a 13 year old girl, he'd

53:46

be in jail and there'd be

53:48

no national story. And I

53:51

kind of agree with that. It

53:53

might be reported on. I'm not

53:55

saying it would be a non-story, but

53:58

I don't think it would. Get

54:00

the attention and he

54:02

certainly wouldn't be doing interviews

54:04

with Oprah or People magazine

54:07

Mary Kayla turn oh is far

54:09

from the only female teacher to

54:11

molasses or assault a student but

54:13

for some reason Her

54:15

case is the one that the

54:18

media really latched on to and

54:20

you know This is something that you and I

54:23

have talked about before more. Why

54:25

do some cases? kind

54:27

of grab People's attention

54:30

or you know, why does the

54:32

media kind of latch on

54:34

to certain cases where? others

54:37

which are very similar don't

54:40

grab people or are Not

54:43

covered as extensively by the

54:46

national media yeah, I think

54:48

it has something to do with the

54:50

way social media and News

54:53

breaking you get it on your

54:55

phone instantly and cable There's

54:58

so many sources that it can come rapid-fire

55:00

that any of these cases anywhere

55:02

that it happens You can

55:04

find out about quickly but back then when

55:06

this story broke It was sort

55:08

of you know, although things like this

55:11

had happened this was sort of one that

55:13

made it to the forefront and

55:15

and this was really big news and Top

55:18

of mind for a lot of people I

55:20

think there's no question you have to really feel bad

55:22

for Ville in this case His life

55:24

was totally rearranged and he was thrust into

55:26

the spotlight but Ann Bremmner

55:29

the Seattle attorney who represented the Des

55:31

Moines Police Department and the Highline

55:33

School District in a lawsuit Brought

55:35

by Billy's mother in 2002 and who

55:38

later became a friend of Mary Kay's set

55:40

of Ville and Mary Kay's relationship He

55:42

loved her. There's no question. That was

55:44

a love story But what he went through

55:46

left him very damaged on the other

55:48

hand He's got this wonderful family and a grandchild on

55:50

the way Bremner noted that this

55:53

case was complicated and explained that

55:55

prosecutors believed that a pedophile could never be

55:57

stopped And it was almost like a

55:59

compulsion and it was unusual. In

56:02

fact, unheard of for pedophilic cases

56:04

to have only one victim. Premner,

56:07

who is extremely sympathetic toward

56:09

Leturno, watched May-December and

56:11

said it was a good depiction of the case. As

56:13

far as we know, Mary Kay Leturno

56:15

never had any relationships with any other

56:17

students, but having just one was

56:19

one too many. If

56:21

you or someone you know has

56:24

been a victim of sexual abuse,

56:26

you can text string to

56:28

the crisis text line at

56:31

741-741 to be

56:34

connected to a certified crisis counselor.

56:36

If you suspect child abuse of

56:38

any kind, including the sexual

56:40

assault of a child, you can

56:42

call 911 to report

56:45

it. So more of it as we wrap

56:47

up this episode. You know, like I said

56:49

in the beginning, I remember

56:52

parts of this case very

56:54

vividly. I remember the

56:56

interviews watching. And

56:59

I said, you know, my wife was

57:01

a teacher back then. She still is,

57:03

but I think because of that, this

57:06

story had an added

57:09

element for her because

57:11

Mary Kay Leturno was a

57:13

teacher. I do agree

57:16

with Anne Bremmner in the fact that

57:18

this case was complicated, but

57:21

I'm not as sympathetic towards Mary

57:23

Kay Leturno as maybe

57:26

she is. You know,

57:28

it is true that Billy

57:30

has this wonderful family, a grandchild

57:33

on the way. All of that is

57:35

true. I just can't

57:37

separate the fact of how

57:40

it all started and, you know,

57:42

really the damage that was

57:45

done to him by Mary

57:47

Kay Leturno. Regardless of,

57:49

you know, whether

57:52

they got married later on, they

57:54

had these children,

57:57

grandchildren. I get all

57:59

that. I just have a

58:01

hard time separating that part out from

58:04

how it started and what she did.

58:06

And I don't think anyone's saying that

58:09

Mary Kay was a sexual predator that

58:11

was constantly abusing

58:15

multiple students. It

58:17

seems from all the evidence that her

58:20

inappropriate relationship was just

58:22

with Billy. But again,

58:24

that's one too many. And

58:26

overwhelmingly, teachers are

58:29

a great resource for our

58:31

kids. We trust them.

58:34

We want them to do good by our kids and

58:36

help shape their minds and turn them

58:39

into responsible, educated

58:41

adults. I think overwhelmingly, most

58:44

teachers are like that. But unfortunately, we

58:46

do know there are

58:48

some bad apples in the bunch. Yeah,

58:51

absolutely. And you can say

58:53

that about every profession, right?

58:55

There are bad police officers.

58:58

There are bad doctors, bad

59:00

nurses. We've covered some of those

59:04

that give the rest

59:06

of those in their profession a bad

59:09

name. They cast a negative

59:11

light on the entire profession. I

59:14

know I think at the end of the day, there

59:17

are people who are going to have

59:19

different opinions on

59:21

this entire saga. And I'll

59:23

call it that because of

59:26

how long it actually

59:29

went on in the different,

59:31

almost like chapters of

59:34

it. But again, I kind of focus

59:36

in on the beginning. When

59:39

Billy was 12, 13, she was in her 30s. There's

59:44

no way that anyone is ever going

59:46

to convince me that Mary

59:49

Kay Leturneau really didn't

59:51

know what she was doing. She

59:54

was not only wrong, but

59:56

illegal. And she said that

59:59

I just. cannot buy it. Now

1:00:02

maybe in her mind she

1:00:04

thought it wasn't wrong because

1:00:07

for whatever reason she felt this

1:00:10

connection. She mentioned that on

1:00:13

multiple occasions this connection

1:00:15

that she had with

1:00:17

Billy. I think it's clear that

1:00:20

here we are talking about this case almost

1:00:23

three decades after it happened. They're

1:00:25

still doing people articles

1:00:27

about it. They're doing Netflix

1:00:29

shows based on the case. That's

1:00:31

a clear indication that for whatever reason this case

1:00:33

just resonated with people and it's one that they

1:00:36

were interested in and continue to

1:00:38

be interested in. Yeah, that

1:00:40

part there is no doubt

1:00:42

about that this case and

1:00:44

maybe it was because it was

1:00:46

covered so extensively that that helped

1:00:49

the consumption of the

1:00:52

story and thereby helped fuel

1:00:55

people to

1:00:58

want to know more about it. Those

1:01:00

things kind of go hand in hand. The more

1:01:04

coverage, the more people become

1:01:06

interested in something possibly.

1:01:09

But this is one of those cases that

1:01:13

people remember seeing

1:01:16

interviews on the news, reading

1:01:18

about it in magazine articles

1:01:21

may even remember the

1:01:23

emotions they felt while

1:01:27

watching an interview. But at the

1:01:29

end of the day, I mean for me there's just no doubt

1:01:31

what she did was wrong.

1:01:33

It was illegal. It was morally

1:01:36

reprehensible in my view.

1:01:39

But then we talk about their

1:01:42

oldest daughter getting ready to have a baby.

1:01:46

So I think that kind of

1:01:48

highlights what a strange

1:01:50

kind of case it really is.

1:01:53

But that's it for our episode on Mary Kay

1:01:55

Lauterno. If you love the show but haven't

1:01:57

done so yet, take a minute, go out.

1:02:00

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1:02:06

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1:02:11

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1:02:17

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1:02:19

can join our Facebook discussion group Criminology

1:02:21

podcast discussion in advance. So

1:02:24

that's it for another episode of criminology

1:02:26

But morph and I will be back

1:02:28

with all of you next Saturday night

1:02:30

for a brand new episode So until

1:02:32

then for Mike and

1:02:34

morph, we'll talk to you next week. Take

1:02:37

care everyone You