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to Critics at Large, a podcast from

1:00

The New Yorker. I'm Alec Schwartz. I'm

1:02

Nomi Frye. And I'm Vincent Cunningham.

1:06

Each week on this show, we make sense of what's happening

1:08

in the culture right now and how we got here. Now,

1:17

if you're the kind of thrill seeker whose

1:19

idea of a good time is to

1:21

watch your own country torn to shreds

1:24

by brutal war, boy, do we have

1:26

a movie for you. It's called

1:28

Civil War. You may have heard of

1:30

it. It's the big, buzzy new movie

1:33

from A24, and it

1:35

is written and directed by Alex

1:37

Garland. Citizens of America,

1:39

people of the Florida alliance,

1:44

and the Western forces of Texas

1:46

and California will

1:49

be welcomed back To these: United

1:52

States as soon as their illegal

1:54

secessionist government is deposed. If

2:00

he if I had to describe it and you

2:02

do I found it is my best job to

2:04

do so due to the. Us

2:07

is that he is an artist of the

2:09

worst case scenario, what are some of his

2:11

films that sort of sit this bill? More.

2:14

Uncertain his ex mother not. That's

2:16

a movie about Ai and and

2:18

you know a beautiful woman who's

2:20

actually an A I A my

2:22

said the Candor is being held

2:24

captive by a i think ask

2:26

her eyes I'd definitely out last

2:28

year He was that memory A

2:30

scenario. You

2:34

are dead center of the greatest

2:36

scientific event in the history of

2:39

mass ha ha. Do

2:41

you have any. Wow.

2:48

That is suicide with. Every

2:51

time you see a movie that either

2:53

written are directed by him, you can

2:56

almost imagine him like leafing through headlines

2:58

and catastrophizing over he's Won and imagining

3:00

the most spectacular ways in which they

3:02

could go wrong. And this

3:04

new movie Civil War arc kind of

3:06

continues in that vein. It's about. A.

3:08

Civil War that has broken out on

3:11

American soil. So. Civil. War came

3:13

out this weekend. It's it's a big box

3:15

office if it's a reality in a country.

3:17

Yeah, yeah, I'm and one of the things

3:19

that struck me watching it was that I'm

3:21

I've seen tells about this for a long

3:23

time and was marketed as like a political

3:25

thriller, but it's not bad at all. It

3:27

now my thing from map but you could

3:30

possibly be on the politics of the warring

3:32

factions for instance are pointed toward. but. Left.

3:34

Fairly vague we don't get to

3:36

know and he likes Soldiers are

3:39

everyday citizens time a survivor, political

3:41

leaders good or bad. anything like

3:43

that. I'm instead the relax and

3:45

comes to us through the point

3:47

of view of these journalists a

3:49

canvas our side capital. M.

3:53

S. Les. Les

3:56

avast. So far south as I

3:58

was sunny morning. Oh.

4:04

Here. We are. Some

4:06

kind of misunderstanding. He. Would.

4:08

You think about it. So.

4:12

I have not had such as Cicero

4:14

response to move in a very long

4:16

time. But well yeah well and that

4:18

caught me off guard. I will say

4:20

I have. It has been a long

4:22

time since Not It's not just adrenaline.

4:24

I'm talking about adrenaline. Was definitely going that since

4:26

I left the movie theater with a real feeling of

4:29

like. Oh what just happened To

4:31

me? It really

4:33

got needs and so in some ways

4:35

my mind. It's good that I'm so I thought

4:37

yesterday. so so my my brain is now. In

4:39

the process of catching up by out of definitely.

4:42

The emotional reaction. Was with

4:44

barry unexpectedly intense Half Moon.

4:47

My feelings were mixed. I agree

4:49

with Alex it I was definitely gripped

4:51

by it and I don't think it

4:54

was a great movie, but in some

4:56

ways I think it's succeeded in what

4:58

it was trying to do, but it

5:01

might have succeeded. Because.

5:04

It kind of wide. Use.

5:06

Some easy tricks which weren't an

5:09

enjoyable but which I don't know

5:11

if I totally. Respect.

5:14

If that makes sense, yeah, we can talk about

5:16

this. Yes, about I want us

5:18

to talk about resolving into

5:20

this terrifying hypothetical without milestones.

5:22

Ah, I'm not talking just

5:24

about war, but about how

5:26

war is delivered to us

5:28

in the press. Or yeah,

5:30

throughs all kinds of images

5:32

and eventually as in this

5:35

case and popular. Okay,

5:58

so as Edmunds and Civil War. Open

6:00

this past weekend. Ah, I'm

6:03

and specifically. It. Open

6:05

on April Twelfth, which is the anniversary

6:07

to the day of when the actual

6:10

hello American Civil War began and Eighteen

6:12

Sixty One. Ah, I guess you could

6:14

make of that what you will. I

6:16

mean I make of it a marketing

6:19

duster. No, yes, yes. But then I'd

6:21

Also, I think as a marketing gesture.

6:24

Occasions new readings of what we saw,

6:26

right? like allies are trying to tell

6:28

out by an acting.and I did some

6:30

reading I understand and so. We.

6:32

Are to set a kind of sonatas, But who wants

6:34

to further set the scene? Okay, so

6:37

basically we. Are. Talking.

6:40

About the near future. Of America

6:42

as right. And it's. There's

6:45

a situation of a civil War.

6:47

We. Don't totally know. What's.

6:50

Happening were sort of the dropped. Into

6:52

it and media stress and also

6:54

we will never know what's happening.

6:56

you know, like it. It doesn't

6:58

that the political situation that pays

7:00

end. This is session and and

7:03

what have you is never explained.

7:05

We get these hints. We know

7:07

that the President is. On. His

7:09

third term. So you know we're

7:12

sensing. That. Disbanded The F B I

7:14

guess Disbanded: The F B I yeah

7:16

we know that of a journalist has

7:18

been saw on the White House lawn

7:21

yell ah. With. So

7:23

as you said, Texas and

7:25

California has to see day

7:27

in and are part of

7:29

these western forces. Florida potentially

7:31

is also another. The Florida

7:33

Alliance. Or it allies but I'm

7:35

not quite say yes. Okay so this

7:38

is a situation where dropped into and

7:40

know. It gets. Vocalize

7:43

to buy. These for

7:45

journalists, right? So we have.

7:47

I'm. Kirsten. Dunst, as well

7:49

as Li A decorated. War photographer ah

7:52

we have jobs was a reporter

7:54

are played by Wagner more Ah

7:56

ah I'm and it both. He

7:59

in me. Work for Reuters. It

8:01

emerges over the course of the

8:03

movies. We have this young aspiring

8:06

the. Ah War Photographer Jesse

8:08

played by Kaylee Spinney Ah

8:10

Season who is joining these

8:13

two more. And kind of

8:15

seasons. Ah, season journalists. And then

8:18

we have Sammy who's an older

8:20

ah, you know, on the verge

8:22

of retirement. New York Times. Reporter.

8:26

Play by Stephen Mckinley. Henderson.

8:29

And all of these,

8:31

these four characters decided

8:34

to. Go from

8:36

Ah one more seen in

8:38

New York and travel to

8:40

Dc to try. To get an

8:43

interview with the president. So it's kind

8:45

of like them movie. Is kind

8:47

of a road movie and away in

8:49

that way to ride. The.

8:54

I'm sorry for channing my when he

8:56

arrived. Okay, I know you're really angry

8:58

about it and I know you think

9:00

I don't know shit, but I'm not

9:03

angry about that. Tessie, I

9:05

don't care what you do or don't

9:07

know what they but you are angry

9:09

with me. There is no version of

9:12

s that isn't a mistake. I

9:15

know because a mess. So

9:18

when Sam Harris. Choice

9:21

Like. And

9:23

I'll remember that. When you

9:25

lose your said are you get

9:27

blown off or sauce. And.

9:30

What Happened to These Journalists?

9:33

Ah, I'm. On this

9:35

journey is. The

9:37

core of of this movie? more

9:40

than any kind of like. Ideological.

9:43

Take away I would say oh one

9:45

hundred yeah and then we don't understand

9:47

one thing. About this war. Yeah it is.

9:50

Nothing about this worth clear. Why have Texas and

9:52

California seceded? Why they formed an alliance who is

9:54

fighting on behalf of the United States? America.

9:56

where is the you know? I'm sorry

9:58

that this is a government. that is

10:00

very capable of crushing a lot of people.

10:02

So where is the crushing? There's no crushing.

10:05

It's like a guerrilla conflict, which is also

10:07

an interesting choice. But

10:09

politically, absolutely void. I had

10:11

heard a bit about this movie in

10:14

advance, and people were making a lot

10:17

of references to January 6th. This is

10:19

like this idea of what if January

10:21

6th had succeeded. Sort

10:24

of, I guess, in that we

10:26

see the halls of power overrun by a

10:28

bunch of hoodlums and fatigues

10:30

kind of thing. But

10:32

definitely not at all, because we have no idea what they stand

10:34

for. We have no idea who their leader is. We

10:37

don't even know anything about this president who's sort

10:39

of called a fascist and compared to like Trusku

10:42

and Mussolini, but we don't know why. We only know

10:44

that he's had a third term. So can I ask

10:46

you why the visceral

10:50

reaction that you mentioned earlier? What

10:52

was the part of it that made you have that sort

10:54

of full-body reaction once you left the theater? Yeah.

10:57

I was just thinking about one

11:00

thing that Civil War does is that it renders

11:02

very familiar places and scenes

11:06

as the sites of brutal and

11:08

hideous carnage. And

11:10

that's very effective. Whether it is a scene

11:12

in Brooklyn where you're watching a sort

11:14

of riot go down, only from reading reviews, by the way,

11:17

did I gather that this had to do with water rationing.

11:19

It was not clear at all. Yeah, not

11:21

clear. And that's okay. Expositionally, the movie is

11:23

not that interested in details like that.

11:26

It's not where its focus is. But

11:29

the journalists all to make this trip

11:31

that Nomi described to DC, they're driving

11:33

down a highway and they pull

11:35

up to a gas station. They're

11:37

somewhere in Pennsylvania. The gas station

11:39

is being manned by some dudes

11:42

with guns. There is a negotiation

11:44

over whether they can buy

11:46

gas and at what price? Yeah,

11:48

it was a fuel permit. No,

11:51

we're actually just passing

11:53

through. Can't

11:56

help, sir. Sir,

11:59

if we pay. I

12:01

was never gonna give it free. Over the

12:03

odds. What's over the odds? 300. For half a tank

12:08

in two camps? 300

12:10

buys you a sandwich.

12:13

We got ham or cheese? 300 Canadian.

12:22

Okay. Quite clearly

12:24

we're meant to understand not only is

12:26

all not well nothing is well. Things

12:28

have totally devolved. We're in a real

12:31

the road situation. My thought about

12:34

that was okay I see what

12:36

Alex Garland is trying to do. He's basically giving

12:39

us very viscerally and directly the

12:41

experience of to me

12:43

first and foremost at this moment in time

12:46

maybe people in Ukraine. Gaza is also something

12:48

on my mind but it's slightly different and the

12:50

reason for that is in this society

12:52

there's still pieces of the American society

12:54

that are functioning normally where you

12:56

can pretend that stuff is okay and all

12:59

right. You know Kaylee Spainy's character Jesse her

13:01

dad is still on the farm in Missouri

13:03

pretending nothing has ever happened. So that reminded

13:05

me you know of like how we've seen

13:08

stories recently of like coffee house

13:10

culture still trying to persist

13:12

and thrive in keys because some kind

13:15

of normalcy is important even as other

13:17

parts of society and a country that

13:19

looked totally normal you know two years

13:21

ago has been completely ravaged

13:23

in front of your eyes. So that was

13:25

much more devastating to me than

13:29

you know the attack on the White House which

13:31

was for me much more of a part of

13:33

an American tradition of let's imagine disaster at the

13:35

highest levels you know. So those things

13:37

were very effective and then there was

13:40

something else that I hope you guys can

13:42

help me put a finger on because this is what I'm

13:44

trying to articulate to myself and

13:46

it was the way that violence was

13:48

portrayed. There is a lot of

13:50

violence in this movie. Yeah it's

13:52

a very violent movie. It's a

13:54

super violent movie and you see

13:57

executions. point

14:01

blank killings. You see

14:03

explosions. You see, you

14:05

know, comrades trying to save the

14:08

life of a man as he flounders around on the ground

14:10

with blood pouring out of him. Now, we

14:12

are pretty used to violence in

14:15

the American cultural sphere. But

14:20

something about this kind of

14:22

violence was pretty horrifying

14:24

and gross. And I think, and

14:27

like I say that as a positive for the movie, and

14:30

I think maybe it had to do with this

14:32

weird, like, maybe the, what

14:34

did it have to do with it? I'm trying to answer for

14:36

myself. No, like, does this connect, by the way, to your thing

14:39

about cheap tricks, like the violence

14:42

and the sort of shock and

14:44

awe, is that all encompassing what

14:46

you were talking about? Yeah.

14:49

And I'm struggling with myself

14:51

because there's something

14:54

that's very attractive to

14:56

me about these tactics.

14:58

And I think it has to do

15:00

to, I feel like I'm probably around

15:02

Alex Garland's age. I'm not sure, like

15:04

he's, but he, I feel like,

15:07

much like myself, he

15:09

grew up in the 90s. That

15:12

was a feeling I had when I

15:14

was watching this movie, thinking about like

15:16

a certain attitude towards violence. You know,

15:19

when I was watching it, I was

15:21

like, oh, this is

15:23

kind of like he's taking a page from like

15:26

Oliver Stone's like natural born killers

15:29

or like Gregor Ocky's

15:31

like Doom generation or something, or

15:33

even like Tarantino, although the tone

15:35

is very tonally, it's very different

15:38

from Tarantino. But the idea

15:40

of kind of like violence is

15:42

spectacle and a kind of like

15:45

a morality about it of kind

15:47

of like, okay, we're just going

15:49

to sort of capture this. And

15:51

it's even going to have some

15:53

humor to it sometimes, you know,

15:55

and there's something about the point

15:58

of view of the journaling. who

16:00

are kind of hardened, and of course there

16:02

is Jesse, the younger aspiring photojournalist, who's kind

16:05

of like, you know, but the whole journey

16:07

of her over the course of the movie

16:09

is I'm going to become hardened to this,

16:11

you know? And it ends, and

16:14

I don't know if I should do this, a spoiler,

16:17

but it ends in a very kind

16:19

of like LOL, Abu

16:21

Ghraib kind of vibe of like a

16:24

shot of, a triumphant shot

16:27

of violence and dominance, you

16:29

know? And so

16:31

that's kind of, so on the

16:33

one hand, this kind of attitude feels

16:36

familiar to me, and

16:38

kind of like exciting and attractive

16:40

just because that's, it kind of

16:43

like rubs against something in me

16:45

that enjoys it, and I think

16:47

many people probably do, enjoys

16:49

while also being horrified

16:51

and kind of, you know, that sort of valence. But

16:54

on the other hand, I'm like, okay,

16:56

but this is also kind of cheap. Like I'm in my 40s. Like

17:00

I was a teenager when I was like, oh my

17:02

God, like, look at that blood gush.

17:04

Look at that blood gush, you know? But I actually

17:06

read it totally differently than you, which

17:08

is interesting that you're saying this. Oh, interesting.

17:12

I thought it was, I thought it was, I thought

17:14

one thing that Garland was trying to do was

17:16

to point out that we've been trained to see

17:18

violence in exactly the way you described No. Me,

17:21

but that the movie acts

17:24

as a kind of indictment of that

17:26

way of seeing violence. Yes, there are

17:28

moments, there's particularly one very notable moment

17:31

where the photojournalists,

17:33

they're kind of embedded momentarily

17:35

with a group of, we're not totally

17:37

sure who. It does seem like they're

17:40

from the Western forces, but like a

17:42

little unit, a little secessionist unit that

17:44

is attacking a bigger armed

17:47

unit. And the scene is shot in

17:49

a real war scene kind of way. Screams,

17:52

cries, bleeding out,

17:54

very intense, adrenaline-inducing, very

17:57

scary, horrible. And

17:59

then... They take out they kill one guy they

18:01

take out a bunch of other guys with bags over their

18:04

heads and then the mood shifts

18:06

completely There's a de la soul song

18:09

It's it's exactly what you described. It's kind of

18:11

like the journalists are now chilling They get their

18:13

break their cat They're off-duty as all

18:16

these prisoners are taken out and executed

18:18

by a grinning Maniac,

18:20

there's a slow-motion kind of watching

18:22

the bullet casing the shell casing

18:24

like come off his machine gun

18:27

But the movie plays with that kind

18:29

of thing a lot, but I don't think is a

18:31

way I don't think it's like a Tarantino esque way

18:33

of saying look how bad I am I'm

18:36

going there. You can't believe what I'm doing I

18:38

think the point is and what it also asks

18:40

through the framing of the journalists is what happens

18:42

when we look at all this violence? What is

18:44

the point? You

18:55

In a minute John

18:58

did Ian and more Hi,

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the I see term supply. I.

21:10

Think that this movie at it's best

21:12

is about photography I guess as it

21:14

and ah yes. The.

21:18

League character. Kirsten. Dunst

21:20

is the sort of like of. At

21:22

one point Jesse the the younger one cause

21:24

or like war torn Mike you know she's

21:26

a grizzled veteran who on has found a

21:29

way to compartmentalize the images that he sees

21:31

this as weird you know at at that

21:33

moment where she sees the of these two

21:35

men that are like. Off

21:37

to the side of a gas station

21:39

they've been like trust up and they're

21:41

being tortured over many days. It sounds

21:43

like bleeding. It's just and ultimately decide

21:45

gets the the picture right. And

21:48

into a single photo I didn't even

21:50

remember I cameras on me like oh

21:52

my god. like like why not just

21:54

tell him not to sue. Probably gonna

21:56

kill them and are. You know, In

22:03

your of the fashion. The

22:06

we don't we record how other

22:08

people ask what have you journalists.

22:15

What am I saying of? Wrong. A

22:17

Mercedes just. Doesn't

22:20

understand Supra Whoa. I'm

22:22

not being protected. And after that she says when

22:25

appear to ask. Questions. Without

22:27

a get images so that

22:29

others can ask questions. Sometimes

22:31

we see like the snapshots

22:33

frozen on screens sees suits.

22:35

I'm. Digital. And

22:37

in color moon color. To. Metics:

22:40

Every part of the frame is some

22:42

sort of information to. On. The

22:44

other hand, and so to paradoxically

22:46

the younger character jesse. Goes

22:49

by any suits. On

22:51

film. Is an old school

22:53

great purist and see like we see

22:55

her like developing her film on the

22:57

go and all these things and there's

22:59

a moment I'm in another one of

23:02

these like battle scenes, battle skirmishes as

23:04

one guys are trying to move from

23:06

behind a post and he has sat

23:08

down and one of his compatriots. Like.

23:10

Goes over him to try to like you

23:13

know, take care of him, that the stamps

23:15

the wounds and there's a moment we're both

23:17

of their arms go out with the same

23:19

time, like almost like as if mimicking one

23:21

another and we see again a snapshot in

23:23

black and white of that you know a

23:25

kind of more as that a sized form

23:28

of mounds. I was thinking about a recent

23:30

book and honest I'm the guy thought it

23:32

was. it's called War is beautiful. By.

23:34

Dave the the writer David Shields and

23:36

it is a compendium of images war

23:38

images from the New York too. Who

23:41

are The point being that you know

23:43

one of our faults of war photography

23:45

as I had a it has tended

23:47

to us that a size and therefore

23:49

likes glorify and heroize. I'm. Soldiers.

23:51

And war. So the movie that

23:54

you're talking about nami like they

23:56

are like maybe examples of a

23:58

former I'm attitude. Like that

24:00

we can be objective about violence yeah

24:03

and abysmally maybe says it's impossible to

24:05

do so right now that it numbs

24:07

depicts in is always a form of.

24:10

Interpretation He and though lead us not

24:12

think that we were just where does

24:14

handing off the emits Whenever And yes

24:17

and the people will decide like it's

24:19

like know the image itself is a

24:21

is not just information it has already.

24:23

Analysis: Yeah Marc there's there's one huge

24:25

question in this movie that you make

24:27

me think that since and voters who

24:29

is seems a soda class exactly the

24:31

were never see them send them. I.

24:34

Was I could say so? So

24:36

we honestly Riddick. Okay, yeah, sorry,

24:38

go ahead and well yeah yeah

24:40

it is a major question because

24:42

the society is completely devolved The

24:44

you know? Basically No. One. Can use

24:46

their smartphones anymore. Off the press it's

24:48

clear that these institutions are sandals of

24:50

what they once were like. It's almost

24:52

funny at a certain moment that they

24:55

say that they're from waiters because. Who's

24:57

watching them? Yeah, it's success than. If. It's

24:59

a tree falls and forest new inserted C or it.

25:01

For. Whom he I didn't mean it isn't it has

25:03

to do also with her We. See.

25:05

The things you know, of course we can

25:07

harken back to the Stone Cult Classic on

25:09

this honor as Susan Sontag on Photography Up.

25:11

Guess you know her Point: If I can

25:13

summarize the party that books quickly and oh

25:15

my God that's you know. nerve wrack. Anybody

25:17

can do it. You can do it. Very

25:19

nerve wracking to do. but that one of

25:21

the points in that. Work. Is

25:23

that the prolific the seer proliferation of images

25:26

renders them all equal and been a the

25:28

more used to be to set of as

25:30

are you get. The less of

25:32

an effect it has. Yeah, so are

25:34

we did Take from that said, you

25:36

know these images are going out into

25:39

a public. To sort of is standing

25:41

over them on their forums and misery read

25:43

ever and moving on other days, perhaps? right?

25:45

But it's I think it is kind

25:47

a t that. We. Don't

25:49

At the very beginning of the movie

25:51

we see. Ah, Kirsten Dunst

25:54

character Leave at the. Hotel

25:56

Lobby. You know, a New

25:58

York where. These journalists

26:01

congregate and. Getting drunk commiserate

26:03

as well as a sort of like

26:05

war you know, war a porter how

26:07

the Us and Yard is. I. Know

26:09

it's it. And and and

26:12

she's trying to upload images

26:14

so. Is she's like, oh,

26:16

it's not. I can't finish this applaud, You know,

26:18

because dip it. Might snow alive for the

26:20

last. The you know of the

26:22

internet keeps going and the now

26:24

it's but that's the one time.

26:27

That we do see these

26:29

images kind of going anywhere.

26:32

I. Mean, it kind of. But we

26:34

seek as were writers. Maybe I

26:36

was like. These

26:38

people like ours a sailing anything like

26:40

what I mean not I need to

26:42

see every second. the nitty. Gritty of

26:44

like of like the works.

26:47

But if you're doing a of

26:49

like a movie about journalists I

26:51

think it is kind as. Significant.

26:55

That. We see it

26:57

going nowhere. In. I think it's. Bear

27:00

with me because I think this has kind

27:02

of like slightly broader meaning for for the

27:04

movie Isn't It reminds me when I was

27:06

like an eighth grade and I had this

27:08

like boyfriend. Please go

27:10

on. And he he was like

27:12

this is a very brief. I don't

27:15

think he thought he was my boyfriend

27:17

but this was like anyway he would

27:19

walk around. With. A camera

27:21

because he was artsy right and

27:24

so he will try desert us

27:26

like you know, like Irish by

27:28

now and are hiring I'd say

27:30

girls. And I later on somebody said

27:32

to me you know I heard that

27:34

he never even had Sylvanus camera. So

27:37

this. Notion of kind

27:39

of like. Photography as upon

27:42

charger. See on empty Ah, that really

27:44

kind of like when I was watching

27:46

the movie I was like okay we're

27:48

seeing. These pictures via on

27:50

screen. With. Like

27:53

know I'm. Kind.

27:55

Of like deeper meaning.

27:57

Deaths and just to make clear.

28:00

I enjoy it. You know what I mean? That's what

28:02

I'm kind of was talking. About with like the tricks

28:04

of like by the same yeah. And it's

28:06

a fact is you know it's enjoyable

28:08

in a sect is. but what is

28:10

it? What really are we are we

28:13

getting? I'm not against it, but I'm

28:15

questioning it. Malik. On

28:17

a one hour just. Bring.

28:19

Into the frame. And

28:21

of course this is very prestigious

28:23

can mouse but there has been

28:25

a lot of reception to the

28:27

some mom I specifically around his

28:29

questions of journalism and the sort

28:31

of a political. Ah,

28:34

Approach to journalism that outgrown

28:36

has he has said and

28:38

several interviews that you know

28:41

on some level he. Admires:

28:44

Or admire and of of of

28:46

a previous form of journalism that

28:48

was all about the facts was

28:50

all about sort of objectivity and

28:52

therefore the relatives. I'm a

28:55

political texture. The. Objective I

28:57

guess in quotations texture of his movies is

28:59

a response to the point of view of

29:01

that kind of journalist. Am I wonder if

29:03

that makes this issue of on the one

29:06

hand objectivity and on the other hand journalism

29:08

had anything to do with Syriacs An. Okay

29:11

well this added to the questions are interesting

29:13

precisely because of what as mentioned before to

29:15

as we don't know who they're really making

29:17

work for like who is reading Reuters, etc

29:19

what what's going on as because it out

29:22

an audience that you're that you're addressing. Objectively,

29:25

It's it's not. As in question are two

29:27

sides to that point isn't I will say

29:29

one saying. The about the

29:32

depiction. Of these journalists on which may be

29:34

relates to this is a little bit different.

29:37

But one thing, that journalism. Is is ah,

29:39

a job and an activity. And

29:41

by that I mean that Of

29:43

course you want the best shot.

29:45

And of course you want the

29:47

most intense moments to capture it.

29:49

And. Yes, adrenaline can drive you. All

29:51

these things are true. And I

29:54

thought that the movie in some cases went

29:56

too far that especially with the characters. Toll

29:58

who you know he seemed like will thing

30:00

is had after some scenes a violent slaughter

30:02

because it's implied what a rush Yeah he's

30:04

become minute he turns what a rush right

30:06

He's become an adrenaline junkie and kind of

30:08

lives for this odd sing but you know

30:10

it made me think of was. Joan

30:13

Didion who in the documentary

30:15

that her nephew Griffin done

30:17

made Vancouver few years ago

30:20

with asked about writing her

30:22

very famous essay from the

30:24

late sixties i'm Fighting Towards

30:26

Bethlehem in which. In

30:28

that embedded in the. Paid Ashbury scene

30:30

and the case. Hippie burnout seen on

30:32

the As he ends unforgettably with a

30:35

five year old who's on acid vs

30:37

and she? That's what What did you

30:39

feel in that moment? Movies are like

30:41

to be a journalist in the room

30:43

when you saw a little kid on

30:45

as well. It was. Let

30:54

me tell you that was Vols! I

30:56

mean that less along the shore of it

30:58

is huge issue. Live to look for more

31:01

from moments like that If you're If you're

31:03

if you're. Doing a piece.

31:09

Good or bad ass. That.

31:12

Was an interesting five point because people saw

31:14

that movie. I think some are horrified and

31:16

some immediately got it. I immediately got

31:18

it. Of course you know what she

31:20

means. Ah, I'm now. Does that lead

31:22

to a clean moral conscience at the

31:24

end of the day where you go

31:26

to sleep and sleep well. I don't

31:28

think it really does very often, I'm you

31:31

know I have a slightly different interpretation. Of

31:33

the source and unseen mercy I'm

31:35

encounters this crest up. Ah, I

31:37

think they were trying to have

31:40

looters trying to bribe gas. Station

31:42

and she takes a picture. Well she

31:44

sort of does it I think to

31:46

protect the under journalist. Who isn't a

31:48

bit of heard Macys Offseason? Yeah. and

31:50

also with this creepy guy who has

31:52

let's not forget enormous automatic weapon on

31:54

him and she'll miss. Jesus photography not Mom

31:56

as a way to disarm As a way to say

31:58

yeah, do you want to claim. The want

32:00

status sure let me go

32:02

back to. Our. Traditional way of

32:04

giving you that. Let. Me see our sex

32:07

or yeah. There is something

32:09

like the power of the camera does

32:11

is there is a disarming. Power.

32:13

Mom Especially, You know it historically

32:16

it's been used with arms, people

32:18

doing agreed to things but wanting

32:20

to show them off and demonstrate

32:22

the my me know me you

32:24

mentioned Abu Ghraib, one of the

32:27

absolute most indelible images of the

32:29

last. Forget the centered last hundred.

32:31

Years. Soldiers posing with a torture

32:33

victim? Yeah with sums up. Ah, you know,

32:35

could never get that image out of my

32:38

mind if I tribal, why do people pose

32:40

for the camera moments like this? Because they're

32:42

proud of her actions and they want them.

32:45

For. Ported. A

32:47

cilic that power of the camera

32:50

and. How it's used by the subject

32:52

of a photo whom we we get

32:54

glimpses of it you know in South

32:56

heroism subjects here, but we don't get

32:58

a full. What

33:06

is the power of an image and politics?

33:22

Hi I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior

33:24

writer at Wired and I'm co host

33:26

of Wired Gadget Lab along with Michael

33:28

Camorra. Each week on Gadget Lab

33:30

we talk of the biggest questions in

33:32

the world of technology with reporters from

33:34

inside the wired newsroom. We cover everything

33:36

for personal tax, Because asking people

33:38

to play a computer on one of us

33:41

personally sensitive parts of your body is just

33:43

like it's a big. Broader

33:45

trends in Silicon Valley. They're just so

33:47

many laid off workers out there that

33:50

workers don't have a lot of power

33:52

and be exciting and terrifying. World A

33:54

I'd It's inevitable that though is going

33:57

to be sold as like I generated

33:59

nonsense. And. Money.

34:02

And floor part in a thing that he

34:05

sees us and south of fired get him

34:07

at. The appear to keep you informed and

34:09

to keep. Every all the entire

34:11

point of the phone should

34:13

be on some level to

34:15

say that up a new

34:17

episodes Gadget Lab are available

34:20

weekly wherever you get your

34:22

podcasts. With access to so

34:24

much information it's hard to feel like

34:26

an informed discerning says. That's why on

34:28

make me smart puts his apart as

34:30

from Marketplace we make it easy for

34:32

you to stay in the know. I

34:34

am far as doll. Every weekday Kimberly

34:36

items and I unpacked the latest from

34:38

Washington D C. as. As Senate Minority

34:40

Leader has announced that he will step

34:43

down as a Republican leader, What's happening

34:45

in a I? I

34:47

mean don't buy the top but holy

34:49

cow Artificial intelligence and all companies really

34:51

to do it par the the hot

34:54

new. And we do

34:56

the numbers. So as a

34:58

refresher, inflation is the rate

35:00

of. Increase in the prices of

35:02

things, not to sort of things. Getting

35:04

more expensive at the speed at which things.

35:07

Get more expensive because in a

35:09

world it's constantly changing, we all

35:11

need to stay smartest. was sparked

35:13

wherever you get your projects. Are

35:26

gonna want to return to what we talked about? This

35:29

whole thing as. The. Why

35:31

five bad And therefore. We

35:34

can send anything anywhere. Yeah I think of

35:36

for me that was the and I feel

35:38

very mixed about this movie do like I

35:41

kind of I'm still thinking about it I'm

35:43

on but I do think about was a

35:45

cop out and a missed opportunity because I'm

35:47

Bearer is not. A single. Smartphone.

35:50

Image. In this movie. Or.

35:54

Anything that would seem to be a

35:56

new technology like you know, the actual

35:58

Civil War that we did. How was

36:00

a moment like it occasioned new technologies

36:02

like their work. For a while they

36:04

were battleground sketch artists and then they

36:07

would send their skits to the newspaper

36:09

and then they'd make a would cut

36:11

of that and that's how it would

36:13

be proliferated. And then like live fog

36:15

or fee and photography came your during

36:17

the war to be the ads. On

36:19

to the practice of photography and also

36:22

adjunct to the practice of changing the

36:24

minds of people. There's even at them

36:26

portrayals of black people of all these

36:28

things came into for reason. On

36:30

and in chains during the Civil Rights.

36:32

And so as today I'm thinking about

36:35

specifically out of you mentioned Gaza before

36:37

we saw rebel imagery that we have

36:39

seen. Yeah said children, missing limbs, all

36:42

this horrible stuff. Yeah come to us.

36:45

Not. As often from the news media

36:47

been through people's. Homes as

36:49

me a lot of images that are like

36:51

specifically fitted for our phone screens and they

36:53

have in fact affected the politics of that

36:56

war. So like I'm wondering for a while

36:58

what. Maybe. You just talk more

37:00

about this issue of what. To. Tell

37:02

us Why? No cellphones and succession of

37:05

off what? We expect an

37:07

image to do and politics to that.

37:09

Well I think this question as. The.

37:11

Cellphone image versus the professional image is

37:13

a really interesting. We are at a

37:15

point as he said, it's and right

37:17

now where the southern images actually central,

37:19

but it hasn't totally overtaken the official

37:22

said journalist image. I mean, just talking

37:24

about the war in Gaza. Yeah, we

37:26

see both. Anything motor very important of

37:28

course, as we all know and as

37:30

bears repeating infinite times, journalist. Has been

37:32

an enormous casualty in Gaza which is

37:35

like the most dangerous place for times

37:37

was on the planet and as a

37:39

grave under statements on but I'm thinking

37:41

of to. Galvanizing.

37:44

Images. right? Now some the

37:46

recent past one is the Towards

37:48

Floyd video. The Just as A

37:50

video not a single still image

37:52

but was distributed was taken on

37:54

a cell phone. I as. Passer.

37:57

By and you notice a bystander, young,

37:59

an onlooker, And some.

38:01

Went around the country and the

38:04

globe immediately and a lot. Of

38:06

the visceral power of that is

38:08

knowing. That precisely

38:10

was an ordinary moment in an ordinary

38:13

day. Why would a

38:15

photojournalist be there? Of course the photo

38:17

journalist wouldn't be. There is yeah like

38:19

a normal afternoon and someone sitting there

38:22

with south or phone and and takes

38:24

a video. The second image I'm thinking

38:26

of is the image of the Syrian

38:29

boy Allen pretty dead on of Turkish

38:31

Beach. That image was taken by photo

38:33

journalist is taken by Turkish photo journalist

38:35

and. It traveled also

38:38

around the world and you know

38:40

this came after years of from

38:42

from time trying to leave Syria.

38:45

I still have trouble thinking

38:47

and articulate but why that one

38:49

image of this tiny body got

38:52

through in this way that other

38:54

images thin but. All. I

38:56

can say is that that journalists knew

38:58

that there was power. They're clearly. ah,

39:00

I'm in. I'd been reading something about

39:03

this where. He ah. You

39:05

know often people like it may be understood accept

39:07

a the people want to see violence all the

39:09

time. You're contrary to like us gonna leave our

39:11

movies in all these things on. Yell

39:14

and isn't taking a flight. And I know getting

39:16

little wide ranging here. but how did during the War in

39:18

Iraq. You. Are not allowed. News media

39:20

was not allowed to show coffins coming off.

39:23

The. Planes. Ah yeah a Ice and I

39:25

think too that has a lot to do

39:27

is I mean I'm thinking about Gaza Nursing.

39:29

I think about how. The

39:31

idea that kind of like

39:34

ideology. Overrides.

39:37

The. Imagery right? Some thinking about

39:39

how and Israel. Israelis.

39:43

Don't. See on the news. Will I going

39:45

on in Gaza? They don't. So. It's

39:48

different for me. you know I have

39:50

family in Israel. And.

39:52

My. Family specifically happened to be aware

39:54

of some people happened to be aware,

39:56

but a lot of people. Aren't.

40:00

They don't wanna be aware. And.

40:03

Are not allowed to be aware and an inner in

40:05

a certain they would have to seek. It out

40:07

really actively. Threat. To know what

40:09

is going on and most people don't

40:11

wanna do that. It just the way

40:13

things are with humans rights. and so

40:15

there is There is a kind of

40:17

like. The. Readiness The

40:20

ability. To see these images

40:22

which are very important to see. To

40:24

understand what is happening is.

40:27

Often. Overridden by ideology like.

40:29

What you said about not showing coffins coming off

40:32

a plane? You know, when the war in Iraq?

40:34

It's it's. some. The

40:37

is that the strength of images could be.

40:39

You. Know could be there, but

40:42

some images. As people

40:44

either don't wanna see them. Or

40:46

aren't able to see them? The

40:48

way southern on me like the sort

40:50

of ideology proceeding the image earnest. And

40:53

because I'm. The. Presumed neutrality

40:55

of the news image can be a

40:57

way it can be are a sort

40:59

of vaccine against the information of the

41:01

citizen and it's in a sometimes any

41:03

listen. To like

41:05

new figures in Israel are saying?

41:07

You know I'm unfortunately the Palestinians

41:09

are winning. Be propaganda war

41:12

chef be the images are they are

41:14

on wedding at him and that's what's

41:16

coming in his with a slammed. The

41:18

ah, immediacy and the sort of

41:20

amateur an acer of their apps

41:23

or is precisely the argument against

41:25

them whereas someone else would say.

41:28

That as the evidence of it's like axel

41:30

by the way, since of the truth is

41:32

enough. Yeah, I had one

41:34

thing that I still don't know whether

41:36

I like to do not like about

41:38

this movie arm which is the occurrence.

41:41

Of the imagery. Of.

41:43

Lensing. So we thought about these guys

41:45

that are trust up and barely alive.

41:47

but they're hanging by rote yes and

41:49

as another moment that is totally were

41:51

living with Iraq and there's driving down

41:53

like a highway and you can see

41:55

the interstate like you know that the

41:58

lanes above them and them in the

42:00

distance you can see that their people

42:02

hanging from ah from the highway right

42:04

an inner in the foreground there by

42:06

Pittsburgh in the foreground on the overpasses

42:08

written go Steelers and then I focus

42:10

is on that. He got us and

42:12

then you look bidens in line is

42:14

what's right and it reminded me again

42:16

of a moment where the know the

42:18

power of images I used to be.

42:20

You know famously postcards from a lensing

42:22

com and the images are you know.

42:24

Black. Often men hanging from trees and

42:26

people like him like a picnic atmosphere. Otherwise

42:29

people like these haunted widely. Unveiling why people

42:31

smile and like it's like they were as

42:33

as I get the the most fun barbecue

42:35

you can ever imagine. And of course the

42:38

valence of those images changes. You know it

42:40

was if they were meant that celebratory images

42:42

and today they are hunting reminders as a

42:44

not so distant past on. But.

42:48

It made me wonder too whether we

42:50

think. ah whether

42:52

us thing that images. Have

42:54

that kind of power to life

42:57

because we are as of you

42:59

know on some level victims of

43:01

image fatigue as a of as

43:03

we've all kind of pointed toward

43:06

on. Do. We think

43:08

that there is that opportunities today for good

43:10

or Ill for up for an image. Ted

43:12

ah not doesn't put too fine a point

43:15

on it, but like, change the world. Ah,

43:18

I'm. I. Think probably

43:21

not. I don't think

43:23

it's impossible. And.

43:25

You know we at it that there

43:27

are various examples of images that has.

43:30

Brought on political

43:32

chains, But.

43:34

I do think that's a delight. As

43:37

imagery. Is. Is

43:39

a real thing, You know is a real

43:41

thing and I think there has been a

43:43

kind of reduction in the significance in the

43:45

important aspect. Of images because

43:48

of how much were. Exposed

43:50

to and I think the. Xo.

43:54

Refusal to include in that

43:56

type of images in the

43:58

movie. Is

44:02

kind of in order to heighten. The.

44:05

Status Of the Image: The images

44:07

that are being taken by these

44:09

protagonists. So the world of the

44:11

movie is not the world we

44:14

live. In In in terms of

44:16

like for thrive regardless of whether the

44:18

images that are being taken in the

44:20

movie the photographs are going anywhere, Not

44:23

the fact that we see them on

44:25

the screen and the fact that you

44:27

know we kind of like seals. Are.

44:31

Too kind of the exclusion

44:33

of all other types of

44:35

images is. Is.

44:38

Different from the way we treat images

44:40

right now. In our

44:42

everyday lives. Like we must

44:44

scroll through thousands and thousands of

44:46

images Everyday on are like little.

44:48

Person all and today maybe I'm

44:51

seats are dead bodies like nice

44:53

day. saw many dead bodies and

44:55

this morning. Yeah, so it's like

44:57

dead body. Next, it's like. An

44:59

ad for like a certain

45:01

type of sweater, you know,

45:04

And. My God. Fast mimicking Gleick diet

45:06

plan and us and and your friends'

45:08

kids in your ear you hadn't and

45:11

like us, their strap You know it's

45:13

it's like it's a glut. It's a

45:15

glut. I. Think the

45:17

reality is really paradoxical. Things

45:19

are all totally true that you say,

45:21

and the way that we consume images

45:24

is madness incarnate. Get it is. It's

45:26

crazy we're describing is madness. Ah ends.

45:28

It's without precedent and will come to

45:30

seem quaint. I think we can safely

45:32

say, especially as we enter into the

45:34

age as increasingly altered images names in

45:36

A we discussed the photographs of Princess

45:38

Kid recently on the daughter photograph. It's

45:40

touching to me and I think I

45:42

said the fan that it was is

45:45

obviously doctor does It was because soon

45:47

that will be. Yeah that one of

45:49

the case. But. We

45:51

cannot count the image out.

45:53

We cannot. We just can't. We

45:55

just can't say with the reason why there's so

45:57

many of them is because they haven't a norm.

46:00

The power. You're right, you're right.

46:02

And the kind of alchemical thing.

46:04

That happens with a certain image where

46:06

it just grabs a bunch of people

46:08

the same time. It's.

46:10

Very hard to predict, In fact,

46:13

impossible to predict what that particular

46:15

image will be. But they

46:17

come around the come or regularly. I

46:19

know you know as surely. As I know the

46:21

sun will rise tomorrow that there will be another one, I know

46:23

it. absolutely there will. You.

46:25

Know I think all of us are struggling. With what to

46:28

make of this complete over abundance, you know

46:30

I go back. Again, to

46:32

some tags. Very reasonable idea

46:34

that we're becoming inured to

46:37

visions of horrors simply by

46:39

overexposure. Yet totally.

46:41

True, But on the other hand, we're certainly

46:44

aware of her. We're very aware of it

46:46

or not forgetting about it. It is right

46:48

there. We know it, We see it. It's.

46:52

Impossible to ignore. Maybe say dunno, were ignoring

46:54

it just because he's growth during gone to

46:56

the accents. But it's it's it's it's been

46:59

seen, it's been noted on. and I didn't

47:01

mean to say this is a kind of

47:03

like optimistic rallying cry for you know what?

47:05

I'm somewhat have no, no, I don't. Have

47:09

a. Say in

47:11

this. Episode the So

47:13

Interesting you know as a mentions Garland may

47:15

have made much of like not wanting to

47:17

spoon feed and interpreters into the arms but

47:20

I do think that this has to do

47:22

with their separate of the film on. Lots

47:25

of people's ah response has been,

47:27

you know there's not a point

47:30

or ah be it sucks sort

47:32

of offensively a political sport I

47:34

think they actually meme. Is.

47:37

Yes, I see these images. On.

47:39

But the month and but but image

47:41

making a specific tiger free as a

47:43

form of communication. You. Know that

47:45

like it's not finished unless until

47:47

the V the the image has

47:49

been like recruited into one meaning

47:51

or another but weeks we receive

47:54

them and then we. Cook.

47:56

Them into a certain like you

47:59

know. Or a sort of

48:01

field of meaning on. And this is the

48:03

thing about like where they sending the second

48:05

picture. That's the frustration, which is like we

48:07

don't want to see the image by itself.

48:09

We need to understand the reception of in.

48:11

So it's almost like. The

48:13

audience crying out for a proxy

48:15

for themselves. Someone who receives and

48:18

then therefore can like analyze that

48:20

like know the the the. The

48:22

threat of too many images is

48:24

that. They will like

48:26

sort of override our capacity to analyze.

48:29

This is what you know. This is

48:31

why though, attention economies danger that we

48:33

won't be able to pay what get

48:35

enough attention to the one thing I'm

48:37

So maybe that sort of same hope

48:39

that you describe Alex as like on.

48:42

That. We still retains on of our. Ability.

48:46

To. Attend to something Yeah, And

48:48

to like. Ah, Imbue it will

48:50

mean it. Totally

48:52

here's demeaning. Enemy

49:00

within fifteen an. Hour not living

49:02

in in the best. Of. Times here. That's right,

49:06

Called Optimist so I asked. We

49:09

are Not. We

49:17

are often but we hope you guys

49:19

get up to something. I mean ah

49:21

there's been an eclipse we in York

49:24

hadn't earthquake he might have heard about

49:26

it. Were hoping that something some beautiful

49:28

what comes next on spying natural phenomena

49:30

happens to you. Who knows what comes

49:32

next Soon to now it's not how

49:35

inspiring but mostly say yes exactly Yes

49:37

da started so I wore on access.

49:39

ask him down how did as good

49:41

an even darker place is added. Have

49:44

a great time and will see you

49:46

in two weeks! Critics

50:00

at Large. Our senior producer is

50:02

Rhiannon Corby, and Alex Barish is our

50:04

consulting editor. Our executive

50:06

producer is Steven Valentino. Conde

50:08

Nast, head of global audio is Chris Bannon.

50:11

Alexis Quadrado composed our theme music, and

50:14

we had engineering help today from Jake

50:16

Loomis, with mixing by Mike Kuchman. You

50:19

can find every episode of

50:21

Critics at Large at newyorker.com/critics,

50:24

and as always, you can

50:26

email us at themail at

50:28

newyorker.com. With the

50:31

subject line, Critics. See you

50:33

soon. Hi,

50:46

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