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Where we are. Worth

1:00

the space needle? I don't I still don't know

1:03

what it is, but I'm hoping to find out.

1:07

What? I

1:10

don't like. Okay, so we are now

1:13

at the top of the Space

1:15

needle on the observation deck. It's

1:17

drizzling slightly. It's quite thrilling. Were

1:19

getting the if. If you walk

1:21

around you get a three sixty

1:23

view of the beautiful city of

1:25

Seattle. When the

1:28

lovely frames visible a

1:30

huge a cruise ship

1:33

visible from far away.

1:36

And I'm beyond it. Like on every side. I.

1:39

Mean, this is. I guess the famous thing about the

1:41

city? those mountains everywhere. There's about. You

1:44

know we are appear on the space needle

1:47

in the footsteps of Grunge and that an

1:49

you know I've I've never, I haven't felt

1:51

this alive and a long time. Or

1:55

to see what Kurt Cobain saw them. Welcome

2:05

to critics A large pockets on the New

2:07

Yorker. I'm going for cutting. I know if

2:09

I and I'm out schwartz each week on

2:11

this show we make sense of what's. Happening

2:13

in the culture right now. And how

2:16

we got here for more apropos of

2:18

for today. How did we get. Here.

2:21

Yes, my friends were in Seattle

2:23

for the Cascade. Tds Ideas Festival

2:25

is the early of and that

2:28

brings together all sorts of media

2:30

news outlet for conversations about politics,

2:32

economics, climate, And culture get

2:35

so. the so today is

2:37

a lot drizzly, wimpy, the

2:39

paper of critters a large

2:41

from the cascade Pbs ideas

2:43

rest of our and we're

2:45

talking about. Drumroll here

2:47

through cry. We're going to be

2:50

joined today by our illustrious colleague

2:52

as a New Yorker, Patrick rotten

2:54

teeth Were going to talk about

2:57

his own prime writing and how

2:59

an obsession with crime and criminality

3:01

has swept the Oracles. So

3:05

what we're about to do with a to

3:07

stroll around the observation that I'm cc on

3:09

ask very people encounter what their own feelings

3:12

that reclaimer and you might ask why are

3:14

we doing this and the answer is. Because

3:16

we felt like yes we want

3:18

to get on the ground one

3:20

here at what are no solo

3:23

culture consumers have to say about

3:25

is extremely popular form of culture.

3:28

Taken away. Or I were gonna

3:30

see if somebody else thought as much of them. Sir.

3:34

I'm so sorry to bother. We are recording

3:36

a podcast. We did spock out for the

3:38

New Yorker Magazine of Cause Metics a large

3:40

and we're asked me something that has nothing

3:42

to do with the Space Needle is that

3:45

attack idea has hijacked for get out good

3:47

arm do you. Do. You enjoy

3:49

true crime. At all the

3:51

I'll have to find put us as one.

3:53

Always a sincere okay good thank you and

3:55

I'm so glad to be you. Can you

3:57

give us a sense of what about. Crime

4:00

you that you really want? I

4:04

think knowing that it actually happens and they're putting the

4:06

suffering in the real out, I think that makes it

4:08

is kind of of it. While. Scary.

4:10

And true ah where's of as i can

4:12

fix so thing you know you could say

4:14

oh it's made off or something real but

4:16

having as i got to treat private network

4:18

is is over thrill For instance if. You

4:21

have any favorites: Ass Guns My Spa

4:23

five, five of the latest stuff it

4:25

over physicists The see you have you

4:28

listened see. I was a member

4:30

of my is Freddie or. Your British

4:32

gentlemen, I have of resistance of in

4:34

Australia from London physicists at various furiously looking

4:37

for a spot if I try to find

4:39

exactly what murder turns them on. The money

4:41

set aside cause the want to be listened

4:43

to recently as free Generic is cool The

4:45

Uk True Crime podcast what was the last

4:48

episode that you listen to about. It

4:51

was hard in Birmingham says episode

4:53

three four six Felix into turbo

4:55

evening when C R I A

4:58

bombs exploded into busy pub near

5:00

Sense of Birmingham. As when

5:02

you want people died and over two hundred and twenty

5:04

before is injured. And. Effects is on

5:06

the he was sorry and how the innocent people

5:08

were Effectiveness. And much on. uncover.

5:11

Who. Have or them off into that. Sounds like.

5:14

Lovely listening with ama wasn't allowed to

5:16

somebody and ominous with what the quite

5:18

nice a solicits like like saying ways

5:20

to Lopez as hang and Softly and

5:22

Freddie think if I'm a sensitive issue

5:24

has been awesome thing of yours as.

5:31

We discovered what the space needle is, which

5:34

is an important piece of information. Because of

5:36

my own aversion to spoilers, I made for

5:38

not to look up in advance as having

5:40

her. Turns out that the city was built in.

5:43

And it's it's easier for the Seattle World's

5:45

Fair in order to show people what buildings

5:47

as a future might look like. You know,

5:49

boy, were they wrong side. It's it's wonderful

5:51

to be. Or Twenty Nine Port. City

5:54

Matthew question. So we're doing episode

5:56

today about True. Crime, similar interests

5:58

and hearing about different. The both true

6:00

crime habits are you. A fan of

6:03

true crime at all. I was a humongous

6:05

true crime sand and then i kind of

6:07

arm and a real I had as is

6:09

he started pillow dark to me like I

6:11

would the way I would watch it or

6:13

listen to it. Podcast. Like

6:15

my favorite murder arm. oh gosh, what's

6:17

that one? There's one disappeared about. random

6:19

people disappearing. that was amazing but I

6:21

watch it in that like as I'm

6:23

falling asleep. I'd put it on overnight

6:25

on rating and then I for about

6:27

a year I decided maybe this wasn't

6:29

the best. so I stopped. But now

6:31

I'm slowly dipping my tobacco and slowly

6:33

with a dateline. Did you find

6:35

it is interrupted your sleep at all really

6:37

and from my sleep But I'm thinking like

6:39

why wasn't I data like what you know

6:41

what I mean like what's going to date

6:43

when you're when you're sleeping and listening to

6:46

like every man is a snow census have

6:48

been a murder you in our enemy and

6:50

like they always have the murder people and

6:52

less the crazy at the cinema it so

6:54

it's just not worth that. So I just

6:56

thought I needed to be a little more.

6:58

you know, high fives, good bye bye It's

7:00

a we love this. I mean yeah I

7:02

mean I'm I'm listening to and I'm and

7:04

maybe I'm looking for a guru. But I'm

7:06

drinking this. This is this outlook in

7:08

the gym. Canada had taken a minute,

7:10

but yeah, yeah, So

7:21

now we're headed to.

7:23

The lower floor were. Apparently there's

7:26

a glass. Floor.

7:28

That is rotating them. Rumors

7:33

of on servers i'm so sorry listeners are are

7:35

we will all the noises like the floor and

7:37

the windows around as of on. I

7:40

believe we are. Revolving well know

7:42

we're sending still for the I

7:44

more involving and we're on it

7:46

much. Like much lights when you stand

7:48

on planet Earth. You are also

7:50

revolving but you feel that you're sending

7:53

so. Sad

7:55

that's so true. People aren't mentioned know

7:57

that they're evolving. that's my country. Oh

8:00

but look at the for the mountains

8:02

the cause of lifted and the beautiful

8:04

cascade mountains are coming into view would.

8:07

You say that you're the only

8:09

still point in a turning world.

8:11

Alex? Exactly what I'd say. That

8:15

can be taught to that guy over. There

8:18

are you? fan of true crime?

8:20

like forensic shows? What

8:24

is it about true crime that appeals year? I

8:27

really like when they saw by cold Case

8:29

files that of have you know been fifty

8:31

years later and are able to finally find

8:33

somebody and seek justice. Does it make

8:35

you feel like I'm. There's

8:37

like order more, order in, The

8:40

world And then you saw it when

8:42

they're like, okay, this thing that happened

8:44

like nineteen sixty. Three. Finally

8:47

we get some answers and we never thought

8:49

we'd get the gets more order along the

8:51

lines of in a rather than just giving

8:53

up you know now they're going back and

8:55

saying let's you know we left the says

8:57

or was unsolved but now we have the

8:59

technology to find the answer that I guess

9:01

also bomb interested in it. My family in

9:03

New York own funeral home so being around

9:05

a lot of depth and stuff you know

9:08

not many of them being like crimes like

9:10

what you see on the shows by the

9:12

flight getting the answer. My

9:19

name is Kim Argus and I'm from

9:21

Lord Was In fact and level Just

9:23

pronounce are different types of. Us

9:26

Louisville lo voy and or time for

9:28

for nancy A some so what's a

9:31

lotta heat sink crime of what is

9:33

the reason? what? what do you like

9:35

about and free of at all? I

9:37

like the law part of l A

9:39

like for watched the trial. And.

9:42

And the evidence and see what convicts

9:44

people and what doesn't. And

9:47

since O J. Simpson dialogue

9:49

Camry Watson, that is really

9:51

very interesting. Sauce

9:53

or Watson. I

10:00

think we should probably get going to their that

10:02

oh my God of the floor. Is so moving?

10:07

The revolving floor has made me

10:09

are unsure of what it means

10:11

to move or not to move.

10:14

When you hear me nuts on the

10:16

on the panel, if I see Madonna's

10:18

done by require, that's because of what

10:20

this place has done for me, the

10:22

Hall of Mirrors. I'd say that every

10:24

single person we've asked me if not

10:26

as anyone who is not into. Kind

10:30

of merely counterintuitively giving me

10:32

a cozy sense of community.

10:35

We are the world designed. As

10:39

a nation or perhaps even a

10:41

global united under the sign of

10:43

to crime. but yes, were gonna

10:45

discuss this more on our path

10:48

here and thought you were feeling

10:50

lose are ready to throw down

10:52

with cache and hours in advance.

11:08

On Christmas Eve. Awesome! I'm hungry.

11:10

these are from then. Hair still.

11:13

Watching podcast nests out there, watching the new H

11:15

B O shows, The regime and have

11:17

was as keep the gloves on. With

11:19

it was a confrontation that are saying

11:21

what's. True Academy Award winner Kate

11:24

Winslet is our Chancellor as he

11:26

leads a pro European autocracy in

11:28

turmoil. Will. Be watching weeks I league

11:30

as the regime unravels. Fans will be talking

11:32

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11:34

of Still Watching will drop every Sunday after

11:36

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term supply. Hello

12:21

everyone welcome to the Cascade! P B

12:23

S Idea! First of. Are. So

12:29

excited to be there! We are

12:31

very excited to be here and

12:33

especially because today we are talking

12:35

about true crime and the insatiable

12:37

hunger that audiences have for stories

12:39

about people who do or experience.

12:42

Terrible things. And as the genre

12:44

has exploded in popularity, there's been

12:46

more consideration of the Essex around

12:48

it. So stories like these were

12:50

the lot. Of questions you. Know. To

12:52

to climb honor that songs or

12:54

does it exploit them with stories

12:56

get hold which don't Is it

12:58

right that the families of victims

13:00

have to relive these incredibly painful

13:02

chapters of their lives for essentially

13:05

our entertainment? So I would say

13:07

that all of these concerns really

13:09

come down to one big central

13:11

question: Is there a right way

13:13

to turn real life tragedy into

13:15

mass entertainment? Or art so to

13:17

help of answer that we are getting

13:19

help. Patrick Rotting Teeth is our

13:21

fellow staff writer up a New Yorker

13:23

and his one of the true masters

13:25

of crime. writing me are all big

13:28

pattern that and he fans can you

13:30

don't have any favorite examples of it's

13:32

worth. Yeah. I mean, Patrick

13:34

is our the master of true

13:36

crime. I mean does Empire Ten

13:38

ah his book from you know,

13:41

three years ago or so in

13:43

which she investigated that peddling of.

13:46

Oxycontin. So disastrous results

13:49

for one? Yeah, And

13:51

those same nothing real story of a

13:53

murder that happens in Northern Ireland during

13:55

the time of the troubles with says

13:57

actually mouth of into our point here.

14:00

In turn into an effect so I'll bet going

14:02

to come out later this year. Yeah.

14:04

Exactly so we'll get into all of

14:06

that and less. Welcome Patrick reading Keys.

14:15

Are better I pads and I

14:18

say i know. He didn't First

14:20

out of the cake. I wanted to

14:22

recruiter as we couldn't have been take

14:24

his legs and professor of scams lot

14:26

cleaner this way it's an interest in

14:29

it and it so. I

14:31

think. We. Can all say that

14:33

true crime is an obsession in the

14:35

culture right now. In fact, I had

14:37

data to offer us about this earlier

14:39

today. The the three of us were

14:41

at the Space Needle here in Seattle

14:43

and we approached a random sampling a

14:45

fellow visitors to the space needle to

14:47

ask them do you like true crime

14:49

and I'm a little bit to be

14:52

honest, skeptical of this exercise a whole

14:54

ago. We have some fun audio first

14:56

show every single one of them as

14:58

like elements. As with it. It. Was

15:00

actually shocking because they all had like oh

15:02

I love this and I love that And

15:04

they weren't just saying is they were like.

15:07

I. Listened to it every night before going

15:09

to fleets It plays, it plays as I'm

15:11

slumbering is and are like wow well I

15:14

basically to question bleeding from this observation in

15:16

a one is kind of for all of

15:18

us and want to specifically free Patrick. When

15:20

I'm going to put both I'm do which

15:23

is what is the appeal of these stories

15:25

for someone reading or watching them and also

15:27

what is the appeal of writing them of

15:30

writing about crime? What does that let you

15:32

do. Is a writer. A

15:34

kind of story. I.

15:37

Think I'm in. I'm a little confused

15:39

at times about the intensity of the

15:41

appeal and when I look perfectly it

15:43

all the podcast about True Crime, all

15:45

the streaming stuff the you see ah

15:47

it's and feel at times to me

15:49

like there's a glut, like there's too

15:51

much of it. There's a kind of

15:53

sameness and I sometimes wonder how it

15:55

is the people of such as a

15:57

bottomless appetite for this stuff. I think.

16:00

Some of it is that. Are.

16:02

Eaten go back to the dawn of

16:04

literature and questions of good and evil

16:06

have always fascinated us. I mean, people

16:08

aren't generally speaking reading Paradise Mosque these

16:10

days, but these questions of the terrible

16:13

things that people do I think her

16:15

or interesting does fundamentally. I also think

16:17

that there's a way in which I

16:19

mean I often think to analogies about.

16:22

Disaster movies or are in a

16:24

zombie movies or what have you

16:26

these types of scenarios in which

16:28

from the comfort of our living

16:31

room we watch a story of

16:33

apocalypse is something that is service

16:35

even more terrifying the moment we

16:37

happened to be living through. can

16:39

you imagine? Ah, and I think

16:41

that there's maybe an element of

16:43

that and true crime as well,

16:46

that there's something sort of strangely

16:48

comforting about in in your own

16:50

life watching disaster befall someone. Else

16:52

and kind of knowing that you are sort of

16:54

secure to as your second question I would sort

16:56

of pivot because I think that. That.

16:58

Aspiration, I just offered. Would. Suggest

17:01

that when you watch true crime. You

17:03

really kind of empathizing with the victim or

17:06

the victim's family. You're sort of thinking oh

17:08

look at, look at those evil people who

17:10

are so different from me. So alien for

17:12

me and for me as a writer it's

17:15

actually kind of the opposite. Where where I'm

17:17

really intrigued by is why do people do.

17:20

Bad things. And what

17:22

are the ways in which those people

17:24

are not different for me, but actually

17:26

similar? To me and so.

17:28

I. Have not. I'm. You.

17:31

Know, I haven't written much over the

17:33

years about people who are. Kind.

17:36

Of inexplicably just sort of pure

17:38

evil. Because those people aren't. That.

17:41

Intriguing to me, I mean nothing. I wasn't much.

17:43

As I wrote for years ago, there was a

17:45

mass shooter. One name's Amy Bishop. And

17:48

ah, she been a professor at the

17:50

University of Alabama and in two thousand

17:52

and ten so you may recall, she

17:54

walked into a faculty meeting and shot

17:56

six of her colleagues and my editor.

17:58

Call me and. That hey, you want

18:01

to write a story about that case And

18:03

initially I said no because this a mass

18:05

shooter not that interesting to me. I don't

18:07

really care why she did it, you know,

18:09

newsflash? like she's a little bit nuts and

18:11

that's not actually a place that I feel

18:13

the need to go. But.

18:16

Then my editor said, there's a really

18:18

interesting backstory here, which is when she

18:20

was young, like a cock and a

18:22

college kid, she actually shot and killed.

18:25

Her. Little brother with a shotgun. And

18:28

there was only one witness to that shooting.

18:30

It was their mother. And

18:32

so their mother only had two kids and

18:34

she walked into the kitchen one day and

18:36

she saw her daughter shooting kill her son

18:38

and the cops around the way. And.

18:41

When they came she said I saw the whole thing. It

18:43

was an accident. And. The

18:45

choice of that mother. right?

18:48

You. Just lost one child and you may

18:50

be about to lose the other. What do

18:52

you say to the police? That to me

18:54

was really intriguing and that was something I

18:57

wanted to understand. And in this case I

18:59

think in some ways that choice she made

19:01

helped create a situation in which her daughter

19:03

all these years later shot these other people.

19:05

So that's what intrigues me most to sort

19:08

of getting up close as I can and

19:10

trying to understand the ways in which some

19:12

people deviate from dimensional morality. Down.

19:14

On you know if you mention i'm

19:17

sorry that you mentioned Milton before and

19:19

parents laws I mean at a as

19:21

in run a continuum his his look

19:23

there Satan. You know if you're a

19:26

true believer then that's true crime. What

19:28

happened here? Why did why has you

19:30

know Satan? Com to to earth.

19:33

To tempt man and and there you have melted

19:35

and many years later. Had. To read

19:37

of we're imam make it matter of yeah.

19:39

I agree. I mean of murder. You know

19:42

a thing or how how far we fall.

19:44

Yes indeed. Well we will take a deeper

19:46

look at one of your recent pieces, the

19:48

Oligarchs Fun because I think it really gets

19:50

into these questions on this is a story

19:52

that you've recently published in the magazine in

19:54

the New Yorker. Tell us a little bit

19:56

about the story, Know maybe it would be

19:58

great if you could. Give. It

20:01

a little fun off with about it is but

20:03

also how I'm super curious about how you. You

20:05

came to it and I started reporting

20:07

it. Yeah it seemed to me and

20:09

in a strange way I mean I

20:12

find our and a know like the

20:14

you guys but when I got looking

20:16

for goods store for is a never

20:18

find them and I deserve look and

20:20

look and I don't come up with

20:22

anything any good. and then when I

20:24

just moved through the world occasionally incredible

20:26

stories fallen my lap and I were

20:28

living in London over the summer because

20:30

we're producing this series of say nothing

20:32

and. I. Was on set one day

20:34

and there was a guy who was visiting the

20:37

Sat. He was a guest to one of the

20:39

directors and we got chatting. And.

20:42

He told me about a family he

20:45

knew and London they lived in in

20:47

I'm Maida Vale, nice neighborhood and in

20:49

West London. And they had a nineteen

20:52

year old boy named Zack and Zoc

20:54

had died. and twenty nineteen? He.

20:57

Was ah, you know, luxury building. a

20:59

luxury apartment building on the towns and

21:01

he went off the balcony and into

21:03

the Thames. and he died. And after

21:05

he died, his parents learn that he

21:08

had had a kind of double identity.

21:10

He. Had been a fabulous and he'd been

21:12

moving around London pretending that he was

21:15

the son of a Russian oligarch. And.

21:18

He got mixed up with some people that

21:20

are turned out to be quite dangerous people.

21:23

And he ended up dead and the authorities had

21:25

kind of looked at this and thought it was

21:28

maybe a suicide, but it turns out that. The.

21:31

The moment the week he went off the balcony,

21:33

he'd been in that apartment with a guy who

21:35

was in a Taurus. Gangster. And

21:38

so the piece that I wrote

21:40

was about. Ah, The

21:42

parents actually Matthew and Herschelle Rattler are

21:45

their names and how after their Sunday

21:47

at died it's it's a kind of

21:49

up, it's a mystery and away they're

21:51

both kind of coming to understand the

21:54

circumstances of his death, but also in

21:56

the process. They're. Coming to understand who

21:58

their son had actually bannon. Life in

22:00

a way that they they didn't really fully

22:02

grasp when he was a loss, Can.

22:05

I ask you to read an excerpt. From the story to

22:07

give people a sense you can indeed of got

22:09

one kid up the hockey hall of my phone.

22:12

Curtis. Ah, I'm. So.

22:14

This is actually it's it's are partly through the peace

22:17

but it's at the point right? I met Matthew and

22:19

Rochelle, the parents. In.

22:21

A chill rain Last fall I

22:23

visited the Rattlers. I'd

22:25

initially connected with them over the

22:28

summer, and we'd since had several

22:30

long and sometimes painful conversations about

22:32

their son. The

22:34

Maida Vale apartment his spare and

22:37

modern Rochelle writes about crafts and

22:39

design and the space with elegantly

22:41

decorated and bright and by colorful

22:44

glass bosses. Are frame

22:46

snapshots on a bookshelf showed

22:48

Zoc and his brother Joe

22:50

as little boys. Dressed. Up

22:52

in costumes and a school fair. Zoc

22:55

was a cute, fun goofball.

22:57

Rochelle said. Both. Rattler

23:00

parents are now sixty one.

23:02

Matthew as bespectacled, athletic and

23:04

bald. He. Has a conspicuously

23:06

analytical mind and an amiable

23:08

intensity, and he has coped

23:10

with the devastation of losing

23:13

a child by channeling his

23:15

energies into investigating Zack's demise.

23:18

Rochelle, a petite with lively eyes

23:20

and a tendency to smile even

23:22

when she's relating a sad story.

23:25

Joe. Drifted in and out as

23:27

we talk is twenty five with

23:29

corkscrew curls and has a casually

23:32

affectionate manner with his parents. In

23:34

the four years since Zack's death, the

23:37

family has had to confront the extent

23:39

to which the boy they thought they

23:41

knew. Had been living a

23:43

double existence. It.

23:45

Strikes me that. This story and

23:47

the store that you told us

23:50

before this horrible story of a

23:52

sort of fratricides on involves crucially

23:54

as you mentioned parents and it

23:56

just strikes me as such a

23:59

tough. Part of

24:01

the job at must be outta you talk

24:03

especially to parents and to family members to

24:05

whom these horrible things have happened and in

24:08

a certain of course being the chief character

24:10

witnesses and the ones who are often kind

24:12

of looking to you'd us to solve things

24:14

as well as double role have how do

24:16

you deal with that Part of it dealing

24:19

with his family's it's really hard. I mean

24:21

I don't I'm sure this is something will

24:23

talk about but I think the ethics of

24:25

true crime or pretty fraud ah in a

24:27

bunch of ways and I I don't exclusively

24:30

right. About. Crime. but I often

24:32

do, and I'm. I'm

24:34

very often sinking a lot about the

24:37

victims in off and the person that

24:39

the center of your stories already gone

24:41

by the time you start writing. ah

24:43

I'm and. I'm. Looking at

24:46

the impact that that last has had

24:48

to the people around them and that's

24:50

pretty raw and devastating. And I think

24:52

that the I'm. For.

24:54

A journalist to create is really

24:57

interesting interactions because. I. Mean this

24:59

is true. The Brothers. It was actually true when

25:01

the parents of any dish of the woman I

25:03

mentioned before who has been timeless, I'm. Sometimes.

25:07

There's a reluctance to talk initially. But.

25:10

When you go in you know you're

25:12

finding people and away at their most

25:14

isolated and vulnerable. You know they've been

25:16

living with this. Anguish. And

25:19

sometimes the people in their lives don't necessarily even

25:21

can fully grasp the extent of it. And as

25:23

a journalist, part of what I'm doing is I'm

25:25

a good listener. And. I will go in

25:27

and and if you talk like I will sit with

25:30

you. For. Three, Four five,

25:32

Seven Hours. And just.

25:34

Kind of here at all tumbling out.

25:38

The. Trick is. I'm

25:40

not a therapist. You know I'm I'm not

25:42

a minister. I'm. And.

25:44

So it's important for me to remind people.

25:47

That. Were doing

25:49

this intimate thing here. You're telling me about the

25:51

worst thing that happening your life. But.

25:54

At. A certain point it's like I'm gonna

25:56

throw the shades open. And. All

25:58

the sunlight going to come. The and and

26:00

like this conversation that we have yeah,

26:03

it's going to be reproduced in print.

26:05

And. On I don't want people

26:07

one that moment comes to feel betrayed

26:09

by it, were to feel like I

26:11

missed London and so I'm I'm actually

26:13

constantly even and little ways like I

26:15

will if I'm recording the conversation or

26:17

periodically just reach out and tap my

26:19

phone. To. Kind of ostensibly to

26:21

make sure that it's still recording, but also

26:23

just kind of remind them like you are.

26:26

On. The record here and when I go. way to

26:28

right. I'm. Not gonna be point

26:30

punches like I'm not Npr. I'm

26:32

not out here trying to be are you know

26:34

your been truly quest like I'm gonna tell the

26:36

story as I see it and I many use

26:38

everything. That. You've given me. To.

26:40

You find that you have

26:42

to use different skill sets

26:44

when you engage with say.

26:47

A victim's family you know we're obviously

26:49

his parents who have lost their son

26:51

is a sympathetic characters but then also

26:54

and all dark sun and in general

26:56

and your work you deal with a

26:58

lot of unsavory L M S L

27:00

you deal and industry friend since you're

27:02

investigating dislike London Underground as kind of

27:05

Russian related mob cigars potentially and so

27:07

on and you spend time with them

27:09

and listen to them. and and and

27:11

I'm a sign of strikes me that

27:14

these are two very different types of

27:16

engagement but perhaps. As.

27:18

A report you. Find that you

27:20

are using kind of like

27:23

a similar manner and in

27:25

both cases. Or or not. maybe

27:27

some. And yeah, I mean I think

27:30

it varies. I do think to some

27:32

extent I and probably different journalist heard

27:34

are different I'm I often But Truman

27:36

Capote in our predecessors the New Yorker

27:38

author of In Cold Blood. And

27:40

it's funny because I think different porters work in different

27:43

ways. For me, I'm always trying to close the distance

27:45

between. Myself. And the

27:47

person that I'm talking with find some

27:49

common idiom. Meet. Them where they

27:51

are. But if any of you seem the

27:53

terrific film company which has made about him

27:56

writing in cold blood or you know anything

27:58

about the story your he goes. Like

28:00

the High Plains of Kansas to

28:02

report on this murder and Truman

28:04

Capote is this like tiny, very

28:06

gay, extremely sort of places like

28:08

a big New York personality of

28:11

assorted big did not often seats

28:13

are in this corner of Kansas

28:15

and he shows up and he

28:17

didn't would dilute who he was

28:19

or try and sort of seem

28:21

like them. And strangely

28:23

I think sometimes I can work because I

28:26

do think that some people it's as if

28:28

like an alien has descended on planet earth

28:30

and it like tell me your stories and

28:32

I'm. I. I.

28:35

Try and meet people where they are

28:37

and sometimes I'm. You. Know I've

28:39

interviewed murderers and and drug

28:41

runners and any number of

28:44

other people I'm. A

28:46

run a lot about the similar

28:48

drug cartel in Chapo Guzman. I'm

28:50

a really bad Ira paramilitaries you

28:52

in a bomb cities and I

28:54

don't It's not that I suspend

28:56

judgment at all because I don't.

28:59

But. I do think that at some to go

29:01

back to to the kind of the milton

29:03

paradise. Last thing I don't think it helps

29:05

anyone. If. I look at those

29:07

people. I sort of both my arms and I

29:09

look at those people on I say look at

29:11

those evil people. They're so different from

29:14

you and me. Like we have

29:16

nothing in common with them to kind

29:18

of demonize these people. and like slam

29:20

my son the pulpit. I'm I

29:22

don't think shed any light on anything, and so

29:25

I am as often as I can. Try.

29:27

To understand why they do who they You

29:29

know why they do the things that they

29:32

do. Cleopatra He said before that you're not

29:34

a therapist and you're not minister. Or

29:36

something you are is investigators and i

29:38

see like that is kind of exp

29:40

ricky area with some of these crime

29:42

stories where. Investigators.

29:44

Who represent the law which is not

29:47

the you represent as an investigator has

29:49

sailed. You know this is something that

29:51

happened in the story the oligarchs son

29:53

where police. Cell to come up with substantive.

29:55

Answers and the Samuel. He is

29:58

left reeling. it's certainly happen. With

30:00

a nothing where you know the book.

30:03

Expands to take in the

30:05

troubles and. In Northern Ireland

30:07

in the seventies. But it begins with

30:09

the murder, the unsolved murder of a

30:11

mother of ten, and by the end

30:13

of the book. We. Know

30:15

who the murderer was for your

30:18

investigation. so we you literally solve

30:20

like a cold case. I

30:22

mean Patrick T. solved a cold. He as.

30:25

Long. As

30:27

if the other hand, it's it. Were

30:30

also days and kisses.

30:32

And a walk in the parks so is what

30:34

I know as you know that that actually puts

30:37

you in a very. Fraught position with

30:39

your subjects because. I would

30:41

have to imagine that they feel a lot

30:43

may be riding on what you find out

30:45

and on what you discover. How do you

30:48

approach that aspect of things you know you

30:50

you can't promise. To. Know in this

30:52

case to find out what happened to Zoc

30:54

Rattler. but I know that you as a

30:56

journalist want to. It's a weird your interests

30:58

converge and were to they diverged with. and

31:00

also we should mention that you're now expanding

31:03

this. That He said daddy. Daddy litigation for

31:05

the magazine actually works at your

31:07

now reporting our and. Or

31:09

yeah, I mean a couple

31:12

things. So one is that I think the

31:14

role of the investigative journalists to sort of

31:16

interesting, right? Because on the one hand we

31:18

have I'm. There's. All kinds with

31:20

would were at a disadvantage. These V

31:22

be authorities like I don't have subpoena

31:24

power. I can force anyone to tell

31:26

me anything. God when that the good

31:28

though over the be as be about

31:30

ah I'm I'm actually a subpoena power

31:32

I would love that I should say

31:34

just heard that agree. I recently met

31:36

with somebody who I will my name

31:38

I'm a source of mine and London

31:40

who I'm. You. Know is somebody

31:43

who may occasionally are over the years

31:45

has has resolve disputes in a physical

31:47

way down on us. We were talking

31:49

about the reporting that I'm doing and

31:51

some there are some individuals who won't

31:53

talk to me or won't tell me

31:55

what I was wanna know and this

31:57

guy very generous. They was like on

31:59

t was the next time you want

32:01

to talk to him just bring me

32:03

along with you and I serve gave

32:05

a little speech about you know journalistic

32:07

ethics and how I'm actually having a

32:09

are you know having somebody who might

32:11

do them bodily arm next to me

32:13

if probably not the best way to

32:15

get people to talk of the it's

32:17

but the I think if you did

32:19

that we'd be doing a to com

32:21

so about You allow me exactly I

32:23

yeah you're absolutely right President Disease rocked

32:25

investigative journalist that are not see I'm.

32:28

In. The case of say nothing. I.

32:30

Did at the you know it's it's

32:33

it's a a book about this terrible

32:35

abduction and murder of a mother of

32:37

ten in Nineteen Seventy Two, a woman

32:39

and Jean Mcconville. and at the end

32:42

of four years of researching this, I

32:44

figured out who had actually pulled the

32:46

trigger. and I after a lot of

32:48

consultation with lawyers in the Us and

32:50

Ireland and Northern Ireland and London. I.

32:53

Named this person in the buck. in the person

32:55

had never been identified before and is still alive

32:58

but. They. Were

33:00

arrested. Because

33:02

as an for very good reason, the

33:04

police have a higher burden of proof

33:06

than I do. and so I would

33:09

never have published the name if I

33:11

wasn't a hundred percent certain that I

33:13

was rights because it would be a

33:15

grotesque thing to accuse somebody of. but

33:17

at the same time this was a

33:19

coke is murder from Nineteen Seventy Two

33:21

are no living witnesses apart from the

33:23

person I accused. no physical evidence arm

33:25

and so nothing happened with it's. So.

33:28

I'm very mindful of that. and I think

33:30

the hard thing after Say nothing is it

33:32

In a way I either is as a

33:34

certain extent to which my reputation precedes like

33:36

if they if somebody googles me. They.

33:39

Do know that about me. And so in the

33:41

case of the brothers from the first time I

33:43

met with them, I said if I write about

33:45

this I need you to know it may be

33:48

a mystery that I don't solve. Ends. I.

33:50

Don't want you do. To.

33:53

Talk. With me. On.

33:55

The assumption that I'm going crack the

33:57

case because both because it puts pressure

33:59

on. The on but also because I

34:01

would be. it would be disingenuous of me

34:03

right to make. To. Make a promise

34:06

that I'm not going to be able to deliver

34:08

on. So the one thing I can tell you

34:10

as I will. Get. Into

34:12

this and throw everything I have at it

34:14

and try and arm shed some new lights

34:17

on the situation and in this case I

34:19

think the authorities had done such such a

34:21

terrible bungling job. Try to get to the

34:23

bottom of the son of the Death of.

34:26

Of. The brother son died on.

34:29

That almost any effort on my part would

34:31

be an improvement on what the police have

34:33

done. This and to have to have

34:35

a certain type of personality or character

34:37

to be a true crime. Reporter

34:40

a certain south for I like

34:42

at it it's only you can

34:44

do it no as know and

34:46

I think. You can I send my full

34:48

timers balls of steel? Bonus! I was. Gonna say

34:50

that. and then I was like when I. Saw you

34:52

wanna either. I know I really my

34:54

place by a is. It.

34:56

Strikes me as first was scary And you

34:59

know when you meet with these characters who

35:01

are have been known to resolve disputes in

35:03

a physical manner and and so on? It's

35:05

suggest even isn't on the level of that.

35:08

It seems to me like you need to

35:10

have a kind of like. A

35:14

very particular kind of attitude towards

35:16

your work. or kind of, I

35:18

don't know, does that make sense?

35:20

Because I'm pretty sure we have a colleague

35:23

move mobile son who's like. In.

35:25

The Trenches in Ukraine right now you

35:27

know, getting bombed and writing about it

35:29

and that's a level of. That's.

35:31

A level of bomb of bravery ah

35:33

and commitment that I don't have. I'm

35:35

not covering war and pretty careful. I

35:37

my wife on is even more careful

35:40

and has a strong point of view

35:42

about what stories I do and don't.

35:44

do you know have my my in

35:46

house council who occasionally. okay so that's

35:48

early years Wix years me away from

35:50

certain stores. Yeah, yeah, I think it may

35:52

also be true. Patrick, Is it not set

35:54

your young son one's face time with a

35:56

member of the similar? A. Drug cartel

35:58

is is also true. This is

36:00

a great the as was really funny.

36:02

I'm. Very. Funny or or a

36:04

high Very funny how hot the this is.

36:06

This is going back years ago So I

36:09

had I have two sons and the younger

36:11

one was about three or four and the

36:13

only one was about seven. We would go

36:15

on Saturday mornings. I would take them because

36:17

the older boy was doing kids karate and

36:19

on. The. Younger guy would come and

36:21

I would during the karate class I would

36:24

sit cross legged on the floor watching with

36:26

the other parents and your adds to the

36:28

my lap and I would give him my

36:30

phone and to entertain himself. He would tax

36:32

my wife just long strings of images. That.

36:35

Were sitting there. The little

36:37

guys sitting on my lap doing this

36:39

I'm said have turned out and suddenly

36:41

I hear this dissonant noise, something that

36:43

doesn't really make sense and I looked

36:46

down over his shoulder at the phone

36:48

in his hand and I see he

36:50

has somehow open space time and see

36:52

his face timing with this former lieutenant

36:54

from the sinner lowered drug cartel who

36:56

was one of my sources. like a

36:58

Saturday morning at nine am and us

37:01

know my that is looking at the

37:03

sky and this guy is looking at

37:05

my son. You know they. Can terrific

37:07

little face the build the frame on

37:09

his own. I honestly don't know which

37:11

one of them was more surprised. Ah

37:14

and I frantically hundred switch it off

37:16

and later tests tested him I'm very

37:18

apologetically and said i'm so sorry that

37:20

was my son ah on accident and

37:23

he he wrote back to the like

37:25

no problem. And

37:28

are like. To

37:31

see this. Is

37:36

his critics at large my that

37:38

a cascade tbsp do when we

37:40

didn't read through. Find. Out. The

37:50

best conversations I have with my colleagues are

37:52

the ones that happened when no one. Is

37:54

looking when we're not hundred percent

37:56

sure yet? what to write? Hopefully

37:59

having conversation. Like this can help

38:01

you figure out your own point of

38:03

view. That's kind of our job as

38:06

Washington Post opinion columnists. I'm Charles Lane

38:08

deputy opinion Editor and I'm Amanda Ripley

38:10

and and shipping colonists bring to bring

38:12

you into these conversations on a new

38:15

podcast called Impromptu All impromptu Now wherever

38:17

you us. So.

38:28

That our to widen are aperture. A little bit and

38:30

me and I'd like to know. First of all from

38:32

both of you at your relationships are teacher

38:34

clan. My own is a bit conflicted.

38:36

yeah, because I wanted to come clean

38:38

and say there are moments when in

38:40

the snobby side of me is like

38:43

a homing. No, no, You know all those.

38:45

People who were just gobbling up these

38:47

stories of murderer and one after another

38:49

and they can't get enough. And I'm

38:52

not like that. And then of course

38:54

you know something like The Jinx. Comes

38:57

on and thus. Those who

38:59

are murder. He belongs to one

39:01

of the richest families in New

39:04

York City for best known for

39:06

you know the guys. Also suspect

39:08

with his wife suffers from New

39:10

York. First made headlines after you.

39:15

Do remains also.

39:18

Realize Oh, and I'm and mercy

39:20

more. Yeah, and you know an

39:22

address glued. To my seat thinking well

39:24

course, I'm an investigator, you know. Here's my

39:26

i've got my investigative cap on I that

39:29

I can figure out what happened with Robert

39:31

Durst since so clearly there's something about the

39:33

stories that appeal to us for very good

39:36

reason and mean we're dealing with the extremity

39:38

of human experience. Yeah, whether it's about someone

39:40

who commit crime or. Someone who has

39:42

it was the victim of a

39:44

crime or or the family. The victim

39:47

of the crime and we want to

39:49

look into. These dark corners versus it.

39:51

Whether true or not, you know this

39:53

is where great art. Comes. From:

39:55

So what do you guys think it's behind some

39:57

of it's I mean what's your own relationship? Too.

40:00

Her crime fighter. I don't listen to

40:02

to crime podcast sir or anything like

40:04

that. But. There are certain

40:06

tax and the genre say that.

40:08

I think. Are. Important to

40:10

me on a cultural level, you know, I mean

40:12

and in cold blood that, ah, Patrick.

40:15

Just mentioned The Capote He, you know

40:17

it's. This cans

40:19

in story of these two.

40:22

Criminal. Drifters who.

40:25

Commit this and crime. But then it's

40:27

not just that, it's a portrait of

40:30

the whole community. Which. Is

40:32

just kind of like touching

40:34

and beautifully written. I.

40:37

Love Helter Skelter so you know

40:40

Googly Eyes the of book about

40:42

the Manson Murders because that was

40:45

really like a mystery. You

40:47

know it was a mystery. Some, but

40:49

beyond the satisfaction of that and and the

40:51

solving of that, there's just. This.

40:53

Whole cast of characters. There's this

40:56

portrait of culture at a certain

40:58

extremely volatile moment in American history

41:00

and so I am interested in

41:02

it when it's done very well

41:05

and when it's kind of expands

41:07

or view of what culture is

41:09

that a particular moment. Of

41:12

the group can also be used to sort of. Oh

41:15

god, or stoke our own senses. Of

41:17

history. Sometimes it is telling a story

41:19

about you remember right that you've digestive

41:22

at different stages of it's life rights

41:24

or member when this was on the

41:26

news and then I remember like Oj

41:29

from ago, different drivers, the classic example

41:31

of how I or just like even

41:33

words Simply as a New Yorker I've

41:35

always loved to Odds are. Ah,

41:38

Law and Order. Because.

41:40

It's as with some a headline stuff and

41:42

I remember and it's always so thinly veiled.

41:45

only since when it's like I'm on the

41:47

horrible domestic violence case between Chris Brown and

41:49

Rian Us and I'm I'm I'm with the

41:51

names were but it was like brisk Clown

41:53

M T on our Citizens and. He

41:56

needs. No. Did this. He

42:00

didn't mean to do it. He her. Boyfriend.

42:08

Nice houses and. Ala.

42:15

Caleb pray. This

42:19

is the thing that you remember right arm

42:21

and so it's it's It's interesting, so we

42:23

investigate our feelings about something Once we've had

42:25

the distance of time. I do think that

42:28

that's. Sort. Of part of the appeal. Somebody

42:31

may have noticed that there was

42:33

an unknown when it was a

42:35

year ago or so. Maybe not

42:37

even Netflix release this. this series

42:39

about Jeffrey Dahmer. From

42:42

Tuscany to you mate Now this is gonna

42:44

be. There

42:51

was a human shields. Freezer.

43:03

Each containing human heart. Of

43:07

the containing said male genitalia.

43:16

In the bedroom. Sale

43:18

was five. More schools.

43:22

And. It was massive. It was like the

43:25

biggest opening of anything ever on Netflix.

43:27

Ah, and their I just didn't get

43:29

it. It was well done, but I

43:31

just felt as though it was. It

43:33

was some. it just felt kind of

43:35

grizzly and it was interesting. I mean,

43:37

a lot of dollars. Victims were a

43:40

young men and boys of color and

43:42

there there is some interesting sociological stuff

43:44

in the series about the way in

43:46

which this is actually probably part of

43:48

the reason that he continued to committees

43:50

crossers long as he did and wasn't

43:52

apprehended. Arm but to me

43:55

the price you have to pay

43:57

in in Sociology, anthropology and of.

44:00

Reaching our understanding of something beyond the

44:02

crime itself is a fairly high. Bar.

44:05

And so I didn't. To me that dahmer saying it was

44:07

it was I didn't I was mystified that it did as

44:09

well as it did. However,

44:12

Or. That was produced by Ryan Murphy and an

44:14

earlier Ryan Murphy series which is the People vs

44:16

or J Simpson. The the dramatization us I thought

44:18

was fantastic and together with Vince I'm saying I

44:20

think actually with the passage of time that we

44:22

were able to look back we're both able to

44:24

look back to the passage of time and see

44:27

the ways in which see maybe things we didn't

44:29

know that the time but then also. If.

44:31

You remember when that series came out more

44:33

recently? They're all kinds of issues we're going

44:36

with in terms of policing and race and

44:38

so forth. I mean, the Residences in our

44:40

present moment where so profound that I thought

44:42

revisiting in in that series and then also.

44:46

The. At really incredible have any be

44:48

seen it but the yes the and

44:50

documentary ah ok made in America which

44:52

is just throwing and astonish August dancing

44:55

multipart documentary. The

44:57

reality of Black America

44:59

and way. To

45:02

only improve was.

45:09

First mooted was comes.

45:14

I love that. I mean, I I really go in

45:17

for that. So I think that when I think when

45:19

people approach things in a kind of. Thoughtful.

45:21

Sensitive way that absolutely is. Using

45:23

the kind of the whole bag

45:25

of tricks narrative tricks to seduce

45:27

you and por un and plan

45:29

your fears in your anxieties. I'm

45:31

fine with all that's on, but

45:34

I do think that You want

45:36

to. You want to think about

45:38

the fact that there are real

45:40

victims. Their families are still out

45:42

there. You want to kind of tell the

45:44

stories with a certain amount of sensitivity and

45:46

rigor, and then I think, ideally you want

45:48

to eliminate something larger ah, about the world

45:51

and not just sort of fixate on the

45:53

arm you know, As as very often the

45:55

case, they think it's almost a cliche, right?

45:57

The kind of dead white woman, the median.

46:00

The. First real, and then you never

46:02

really advanced much beyond that. Yeah,

46:04

I mean, I'm not immune. I just want to

46:06

be. Clear when I talk about my snobbery

46:08

like. I'm I'm not. I'm not

46:10

immune. To the.

46:13

Explicitly exquisite rush of like the

46:15

breath on the back of your

46:17

neck feeling like there's a lot

46:19

to be said for are watching

46:21

or reading or listening to something

46:23

that satans your senses in this

46:25

intensely. I mean you're talking about

46:27

a narrative bag of tricks like

46:29

one reason frankly like crime can

46:31

be very useful thing to tell

46:33

the speaker stories about the society

46:36

were in. Worth the moment in

46:38

the culture is because of suspense

46:40

and you know there's there's no

46:42

stronger narrative tool. The Not

46:44

Like I'm thinking i physically

46:46

your recommendation Patrick I've started

46:48

reading The Last Girls which

46:50

is Robert Cookers book about

46:53

the investigation am and the

46:55

victims. Of the Go Beach murders, you

46:57

know that book was written and twenty

46:59

thirteen. Or published in Twenty Thirteen and the

47:01

murder was found this year So that book

47:03

came out almost a decade before the murder

47:05

was named and I was starting to read

47:07

his books thinking, well, how's he going to.

47:09

Do this because I know that she

47:11

doesn't know who did this. Nobody knew

47:14

who did this until they pulled out

47:16

this you know horrifying architect from his

47:18

creepy little house and and Rihanna him.

47:21

And the way those it is, she

47:23

begins. With. Each. Of

47:25

the victims by giving you a kind

47:28

of snapshot view into their lives as

47:30

as young people as as children than

47:32

his young women and men. And this

47:35

to me. As

47:37

as and brilliant and moving and very unsettling.

47:39

After his gone through each of the victims

47:42

he returns to them but this time. They

47:44

were all you know, all working a sex workers

47:46

as escorts. This is how they all got. A

47:48

metre matter horrible end he returns

47:50

the people they became their aliases

47:52

moving into this next chapter of

47:54

their lives. That like you can

47:56

see this transformation happening for each

47:58

of these people and. One

48:01

obvious thing it does his recent are

48:03

the victims and not just the grisly

48:05

nature of the crime but you get

48:07

a deeper view into the stories that

48:10

the human aspect of what is going

48:12

on. And the

48:14

same time I thought to off a cannot read

48:16

this before I go to bed. not because I'm

48:18

afraid of someone bursting. And for the windows on.

48:21

But. Because you have this point of view

48:23

over what happened to these other people and

48:25

or something so unsettling about that like been

48:27

forced into this kind of intimacy with the

48:29

victims, not not even with the doer of

48:31

evil and just kind of knowing something they

48:34

don't. I think that. There's like

48:36

seductive about that as the reader the

48:38

you know audience. And there's also some kind

48:40

of horrible about worth of and of god's

48:42

eye view right? A sort of like surveillance

48:44

and almost complicity because assault. It's.

48:47

It's like you almost wanna yeah like this

48:49

it don't turn around is there was a

48:51

nice you know. By. For saying

48:53

what I don't say that are yeah professor

48:55

when I was of one can't leave here

48:57

Yeah you air right now and I feel

48:59

that I'm and I think it's brilliant book

49:02

I'm an and com last girls would recommend

49:04

it to to argue but I think in

49:06

a weird way I'm I don't know what

49:08

the conversations were when Bob Corker wrote that

49:10

book but I could imagine when you're pitching

49:12

that as a book to a publisher that

49:14

they say well we haven't found the killer

49:16

So what's the book rights And I think

49:18

the brilliance of it was that actually that's

49:20

com or I'm sure this was the intention.

49:22

From the beginning, right that was. it's not

49:25

actually about that. I. Do wonder

49:27

like. Your.

49:29

Experience of this You know, working on something that's

49:31

a magazine piece and then having a be a

49:33

book. And them working on

49:35

it for the screams of understanding

49:38

as you do maybe uniquely the

49:40

life cycle of these stories on.

49:43

One, But what do you think?

49:45

The entertainment industry. Wants.

49:47

And expects out of his stories and into

49:49

may be like has there ever been a

49:51

time when if you're on a drama set.

49:54

Or. Something And he knows that you know the

49:56

way that things are gonna put a strain

49:58

wildly from your original intent. In a way that

50:00

makes you feel different ethically about it than you did

50:02

when you're writing the story. Have you had to like

50:05

intervene and say that's not what this is Or yeah,

50:07

I mean it's hard. it's hard hard thing. I think

50:09

that the I have thought about this a lot in

50:11

the last two years because a number of things that

50:13

I worked on are you know in the process our

50:15

have then. Turned into

50:17

dramas and it's strange records for me, The

50:19

North Stars is soft. It's that everything is

50:22

factual, and it is sometimes the case that

50:24

people aren't crazy about what I publish or

50:26

that they don't want me to be writing

50:28

about it at all. Arm but

50:30

I'd I'd sir move forward And the

50:33

constraint for me as always that I

50:35

go out and I do the work

50:37

and I tell a story. that's true.

50:40

And the hard thing about drama is

50:42

that it's you do a very faithful

50:44

adaptation of almost any book. It is

50:47

going to be a bad adaptation that

50:49

the process of turning something into a

50:51

televised drama is is in. innately. if

50:53

it's gonna be good, you actually need

50:56

to sort of referred off a bit

50:58

and condensed certain sections and. Expand certain

51:00

others and takes or narrative shortcuts and

51:03

that's a thing that as an author

51:05

is like. It's a tricky thing right?

51:07

cause you're sort of their on the

51:10

sidelines watching them do this on I

51:12

am. Pretty good about does making

51:14

peace with the idea that there's like a a

51:16

cultural product that I create with my hands and

51:18

I put it out in the world and that's

51:20

mine and then sometimes there's an adaptation of it

51:23

that is just a more complicated things on what

51:25

I have tried to differently and in the case

51:27

of Say Nothing is I'm a producer on Say

51:29

Nothing and I have tried to be there. I

51:31

was there onsat I was trying to sort of

51:33

say i'm we want to get this as right

51:36

as possible. There are some short cuts you can

51:38

take absolutely necessary and then there are others that

51:40

I would say what's not Do that because you

51:42

have to That. This is a real story

51:44

about real people, their allies. They're out there. Yeah,

51:47

I mean have a strong dose

51:49

of ethics. Never, never never heard

51:52

anyone. Yeah, yeah. I'll

51:54

just spoiled. Hardest loss for everybody who.

51:56

Doesn't know what happens in and let you know that. saying that

51:59

at. The about

52:01

our. On. That know we are officially of

52:03

time. Catch her breath and keep. Thank you so

52:05

much for joining at a. They on. And.

52:10

Say you are looking apart. The

52:13

I. Like

52:30

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