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1:09

Hello, everyone. Welcome to

1:12

the cultish haunted cosmos

1:15

interdimensional crossover. Part A.

1:17

Part A. I guess that's what we'll call it. Man,

1:20

I'm excited. This is cool, really cool being on your set. I'm liking

1:22

it. Yeah, our set as you guys well

1:24

know is super fancy and

1:27

very well put together. It's never just thrown

1:29

together last minute. Oh yeah, oh yeah.

1:31

No, I'm digging this. So man, it's crazy.

1:34

When did you launch your podcast? I think

1:36

you and Brian actually sent me like, you

1:38

both texted me and kind of set up a text story I mean

1:40

right when you guys were starting this. Yeah, yeah, that's

1:42

right. Because we went on with Summer

1:44

and Joy for Shia Logians. Yeah. And

1:47

we were like, man, we would love to get

1:48

the cultish bump, you know? And

1:51

we, a year in the making, we're almost

1:54

there. But we started it in March of

1:56

this year. Yeah. So it

1:58

was just seven months ago. Yeah,

2:00

and you guys really took off and that was really interesting.

2:03

Why do you think people took a huge interest

2:05

in it? It feels like this is just

2:08

something that all the topics that

2:10

you guys cover, and we cover a lot of the same stuff, there's

2:12

just this huge, I would call

2:14

almost like a pulse of the marketplace. There's such an

2:16

insatiable hunger for these type

2:18

of topics. Just given the response

2:21

that you got to your podcast, why do you think that is?

2:24

I don't fully know. That's a really good question.

2:27

I chalk it up to the Lord being very kind

2:29

to us on the one hand, but then also I do

2:32

think fulfilling a need, where we have

2:34

a lot of reformed folk that

2:36

can't ignore what's in front of them. People

2:40

hear things and see things themselves, and

2:43

yet a lot of people in the reformed community

2:45

just won't touch it with a 10-foot pole. Part

2:48

of me understands why. Usually it's the

2:50

hyper-charismatics or the

2:53

straight-up pagans that are willing to discuss

2:56

things like unto this, but

2:58

then they kind of run with it and take it to a place where we're

3:00

not really comfortable with, or they give it a name that

3:02

we don't really feel comfortable with.

3:05

But that doesn't mean it's not true, it's real and there.

3:09

I think that there was a need, hopefully Lord willing,

3:12

that's being filled or starting to be filled by,

3:14

of course, you guys really

3:17

leading the charge and some other people

3:19

kind of joining in behind you all. Yeah,

3:22

no, it's just interesting because when

3:24

it comes to how we've dealt with it, we always

3:27

looked at Dr. Walter Martin and how he addressed

3:29

it, and even during his time, he

3:31

was the one of the foremost Christian

3:34

apologists when it came to dealing with the

3:36

cults, a lot of times different discernment-related

3:38

issues, but also UFOs. He's

3:41

probably the most outspoken, he was

3:44

known as the Bible answer man, but he was very outspoken

3:46

dealing with topics that many

3:48

Christians today, even the reformed world, just in general,

3:51

still feel like it's kind of taboo, like things like extrasensory

3:53

perception, UFO encounters,

3:56

deliverance, demonic possession,

3:59

what's the nature of it? that spiritual

4:01

warfare, witchcraft,

4:03

how to actually deal with a lot of these

4:05

issues that do seem to be taboo, and

4:08

he would face it head on, but also he would

4:10

lay a framework in acknowledging

4:12

these experiences, laying a foundation to say,

4:15

hey, Scripture actually talks about this. The

4:17

Bible is a dimensional book, so even with the title

4:19

of yourself, when it comes to the haunted

4:21

cosmos, there is a real

4:24

reality where you have the Christian worldview,

4:26

because of the distinction of creation

4:29

that was built, where God said, let there be light, and there

4:31

is light. But there's a distinction. The

4:33

Bible is a dimensional book where you have the

4:36

physical elements that Christ spoke unto

4:38

existence by the Word of His power, but then

4:40

you also have the unseen,

4:42

the unceamer of all principalities and powers,

4:45

all things visible and invisible, created by Christ

4:47

and for Christ. So I do think that

4:50

there does have to be balance between the

4:52

two. So in the same way how Christ,

4:55

by the Word of His power, made a distinction,

4:57

like he equally created both the

5:00

complete physical, the material, and the

5:02

immaterial, as Christians, we need to have

5:04

what we have to be able to understand the

5:07

world we can see physically in front of us,

5:09

but also understand the unseen world

5:11

that we can see in front of us, understand those haunted

5:13

cosmos, but through the

5:15

lens of Scripture. So I think

5:18

there's just a hunger for that. I think that has been

5:20

lacking, so I think what you guys

5:22

are doing is really, really important, even with the things

5:24

that we're going to talk about today. Right. Yeah, and

5:26

I think our show is kind of funny

5:29

because we don't – or we didn't start

5:31

it out viewing it primarily as a means

5:33

to do what you guys are doing, which is like investigative,

5:38

really robust, more scholastic studies

5:40

of these things. Ours is more like

5:42

we – one of our tenants at New Christon and Press

5:45

and even Refuge Church is that we fundamentally

5:47

believe people are compelled by stories. We

5:50

think that stories are ingrained into

5:52

the human soul, and so we want

5:54

to tell compelling stories first and foremost

5:57

that just let people see like, no, actually

5:59

there something to this, and

6:02

then as a secondary measure, we're

6:04

like, we'll throw in whatever biblical

6:07

commentary we feel that we can provide.

6:10

But really, it's like a gateway thing where

6:12

we just want people to hear these stories like modern

6:15

folktale stories, basically, and

6:17

then get people to ask questions. Well, what does the Bible

6:19

say about this? Because you're absolutely right, the Bible does

6:21

touch on all of these things. And I think something that

6:24

Dr. Walter Martin did that really

6:26

we've all probably experienced and all

6:28

the listeners probably have to some degree, is

6:31

seeing a minister that you really respect that

6:33

you know is grounded in the book that he

6:36

preaches. And yet he's willing to

6:38

address things that you previously thought

6:40

were taboo. And what it allows

6:42

you to see is that when you have

6:44

whatever perspective you're coming from, whether it's reformed

6:47

or not, you have a field of orthodoxy,

6:49

a fence line of orthodoxy. And

6:52

what people like Dr. Martin have shown

6:55

is that you're actually free to explore

6:57

that field parameters, right? You're

7:00

not free to go out of it. You don't

7:02

want to get into heterodox

7:03

and,

7:04

Lord forbid, heresy stuff. But

7:06

within that field of orthodoxy, we

7:08

oftentimes limited scope, I think

7:11

grossly. And we forget that it includes

7:13

a whole realm of angels and

7:15

demons and supernatural healings

7:18

and things like this that normally we're

7:20

just content to ignore until

7:22

you're faced with it head on in your own life.

7:25

And then you're going to regret not having thought about it

7:27

and prayed about it and read about it before. Right.

7:30

That's good. It's like within those parameters is also

7:32

a realm of truth that we must view these things. And

7:34

if you don't have any realm of parameter to

7:37

view it through, like where the lens, you're going

7:39

to go off like the pagan. If you're thinking about the things

7:41

that go bump in the night

7:41

and you're going to start trying to contact your

7:44

dead uncle in your basement, you're

7:46

thinking that it's fine. Yeah, because

7:48

it's actually your dead uncle. It really does sound like my

7:50

uncle. And it's not. Yeah.

7:53

I promise it's not. Yeah. Well,

7:56

yeah. And I think what's interesting is I was sharing

7:58

you the clip beforehand. And I think this

8:00

is relevant to why

8:02

our podcast has had the audience that it's

8:05

had. And also, I think yours is taken off,

8:07

one similar to that, is that we're looking

8:09

at a lot of things, a lot of times just separately.

8:12

Like, you know, there's a big discussion right

8:14

now between cessationists

8:16

and the charismatic world. Like,

8:18

can Christians have a demon? Or can a

8:20

Christian be demon-possessed? And we're looking at that

8:22

more else than looking at the issue of witches

8:26

and witchcraft and dealing with that, like on

8:28

TikTok. The number

8:30

one hashtag witchtalk is now around 50 or 60

8:33

billion pieces of content. Now, given

8:35

some of that, it's probably just people being silly and doing

8:37

politics and stuff like that. But the reality

8:39

is that there are people who are tangibly tapping

8:42

into things that are real and

8:44

things that are real and are spiritually dangerous that God

8:47

warns against. And they're

8:49

opening up gateways. You don't

8:51

have control over what comes out on the other side. You

8:54

have the rampant use of psychedelic

8:56

use. And when you actually look at what scripture

8:58

warns about in the farm in Kia, a lot of what's

9:01

being normalized by Joe Rogan and Russell

9:03

Brand about getting in contact

9:05

with entities. The work that

9:07

even Tom DeLonge has done, where

9:09

you have people in the UFO conversation who

9:11

now are trying to advocate for

9:14

CE5 disclosures, which are close encounters

9:16

of the fifth kind, which is contact

9:19

through aliens by means of occultic practices

9:21

to get around what the government is covering

9:23

up. Like all of these things are happening

9:26

and we're viewing all these things in part when

9:28

we're actually not looking at the big picture, which is

9:30

a fundamental change of worldviews.

9:33

Where you're looking at where there's the

9:35

final reality is the God of creation,

9:38

who's the father of all under

9:40

which every other family in earth is named paraphrasing

9:42

Ephesians. Where you actually now have

9:45

and as a view of of two wisdom, where there's a

9:47

distinction between creator and creation,

9:50

where now you have the transfer of

9:52

worldviews with the final reality is

9:54

onism, where there's no distinction between

9:56

creators and creation. All is

9:59

one. and where it goes to,

10:01

instead of actually worship of

10:03

the Father, of the Triune God, now it's

10:06

the acknowledgement and the worship of the self

10:08

and the divine feminine. And so what you're

10:10

actually seeing is this transfer

10:12

of worldviews, and in that process there

10:14

is a real tangible

10:17

supernatural reality. In the same way the pagans

10:20

of old, they had their gods that they were

10:22

tapped into from Greek culture

10:24

to Persian culture. They all had

10:26

their temples in high places, of things

10:28

they were tapped into and connected to. So

10:31

now I believe that what you're going to be seeing

10:33

along the West is a lot of what

10:35

would typically was reserved for missionaries and mission

10:38

work overseas is now going to

10:40

be normalized in the West. And so I think a lot of

10:42

there are a lot of Christians now, even

10:44

the Reform camp, who probably are seeing things

10:47

that they don't really know how to deal

10:49

with that. I don't know if they necessarily have a polemic for

10:51

it. And so I think when we're addressing

10:54

these things and giving a biblical precedent

10:57

for it, I think there's just a huge hunger

10:59

where finally someone's actually acknowledging

11:02

their reality so they don't feel like they're being ghastly all

11:04

the time. They're going crazy. Yeah, exactly.

11:07

I mean, I think like when we

11:09

get down to...

11:11

What I'm trying to say is I think people are about

11:14

to start reaping what they've sown

11:16

and essentially viewing human history in two

11:19

discrete parts and thinking that everything

11:21

up until about 1850 was borderline not real. It

11:27

happened. Some of it surely happened, but those people

11:29

just lied all the time. They were crazies.

11:32

And now we're in this enlightened

11:34

modern age, I guess it started at the Renaissance,

11:37

maybe even far earlier than 1850, where

11:40

we now know what's right and what's

11:42

wrong. We now know what's true and what's

11:44

untrue and all the crazy stuff. Well,

11:46

it's just not true. And so you still, even

11:49

today, you still have the trope of someone

11:51

who encountered Bigfoot or saw

11:53

a UFO or think there's a ghost in their house and

11:55

they get mocked by a large

11:57

portion of people and people are about to start reaping.

12:00

the rotten fruit of doing that. Because

12:03

human history isn't split up into two discrete parts,

12:05

it's one big story and it has major

12:08

themes and major sections and so

12:10

I think that people are about to start realizing that we actually

12:13

do still live in a cosmos

12:16

that's haunted epistemologically, realistically,

12:19

ontologically, all the economically by

12:22

the overwhelming victory and ownership

12:24

of Christ over everything and

12:27

also the usurper who wants to come in

12:29

and say no it's actually mine. Like

12:31

that, that, those two hauntings

12:34

are still occurring, haunting in the sense that it's

12:36

just this backdrop, common denominator

12:38

for everything that happens in the world. Everything

12:41

is a war and a battle and a fight between

12:43

the two opposing forces of super

12:46

nature, I'll say. And

12:48

so I think that we're about to start seeing the consequences

12:51

of ignoring the truth and validity

12:53

of that, that the Bible actually gives

12:55

to us. And so you see, we were talking about this a little

12:57

bit before recording, like you see this

12:59

in the different creation myths of people all through

13:02

the world. Yeah. You know, even before

13:04

the global floods, let's just look at the

13:06

creation stuff. Like you have the Greek

13:09

myth of chaos reigning before

13:12

time and space and everything, there was just chaos.

13:14

And then from chaos comes these seven

13:17

primordial essences and then they have the

13:19

Titans and then they have the gods.

13:21

And so the point is the Greeks

13:24

are saying that instead of the divine

13:26

logos, by whom and

13:28

through whom all things were created and for

13:30

whom all things were created and the triune

13:33

God that accomplished it

13:35

all economically, instead of that, you

13:37

have chaos, not logos, and you

13:39

have three corrupted generations of divine

13:42

offspring that create a horrible mess

13:44

of the earth, that they have to keep redoing

13:47

because they just keep screwing it up. So

13:49

instead of tri-unity, you have three

13:52

corrupted generations of divinity and

13:54

then instead of logos, you have

13:56

chaos. And the point is is that

13:59

epistemic

13:59

battle has never stopped.

14:02

It's been repackaged, you know, maybe people

14:04

that are pagans don't think the way the ancient Hellenistic

14:06

Greeks did about it, but it's still here and

14:09

we're gonna have to reckon with it and answers

14:11

like the Big Bang and evolution is not

14:14

going to be the thing that reckons with it. Right,

14:16

yeah, that's what we're coming out of right

14:19

now, essentially in the worldview

14:21

or the world at least, let's say, like in the modern

14:23

West is atheistic

14:25

materialism,

14:27

like that's the reality, like this

14:30

pagan shift or judgment that God

14:32

is placing on our on the West world

14:34

is because we have the bastard children of atheism,

14:37

you know, and they're trying to get explanations for

14:39

things that their parents didn't give them explanations for

14:42

or Carl Sagan couldn't explain for them, you

14:44

know, so they're going to, they have

14:46

no parameters, right, they had no one actually giving

14:48

them parameters of truth in which to actually

14:51

view these weird things that are going on

14:53

or they're not even getting answers to

14:55

any type of spiritual question that they have, like Jerry, you're

14:57

talking about earlier about this invisible realm in

15:00

which is around us, I mean, human the human body shows

15:02

us that, right, like I'm looking at you, you're physical, but

15:04

you're also spiritual, right, but

15:06

I can't see that,

15:07

but I know it's there, right, you know, I know your

15:10

spirit is there, but people,

15:13

like if you didn't grow up in the church,

15:15

right, they didn't grow up with this type of worldview, you

15:17

know, they grew up with that they're purely matter

15:20

in motion and so when weird and odd

15:22

things happen, there's no explanation

15:24

for them, right, and then there's nowhere for

15:27

them to stay in a good healthy realm,

15:29

they don't go to God, right, the answer is

15:31

they go to chaos, right, and so very

15:34

practically, if you have your

15:36

feet planted firmly in midair, from

15:38

your childhood to adulthood, and then with

15:40

materialism, and then suddenly you're faced with the

15:42

brute fact of like, I think

15:45

that my friend was just demonically possessed, like

15:48

there's, I have no other way to understand

15:50

what I just saw, yeah, well who are you gonna

15:52

turn to? You're gonna turn to the ones that are talking

15:54

about it, right, maybe it's Roman Catholicism

15:57

in the best case scenario, but

15:59

in the worst case, It's probably gonna be like

16:01

some new AG even like theosophy

16:03

stuff Yeah And the Christian church has

16:06

to realize that that is a real pipeline

16:08

that happens more and more Frequently in the modern

16:10

world and we have to be ready to intercept

16:12

it right and say no no no no this

16:15

is the truth Look at the holistic perspective of goodness

16:17

truth and beauty that we can give you from

16:19

God

16:20

and and you try to tell me That

16:23

the theosophist got it better. Yeah,

16:25

like that would be absurd And

16:27

I think like one of the biggest challenges that the

16:29

church is going to have to deal with this is cross-denominationally

16:33

Is how are you going to explain

16:36

like deal with the same member of your congregation

16:38

comes in saying is talking to you and Brian? And

16:40

they say hey my sister was playing I was

16:42

toying around with the Ouija board We had a conversation

16:45

there said hey You should be messing around with this

16:47

stuff and we decided to kind of you know Go

16:49

a little cage stage and we put a pipe

16:51

we've rebuked that Ouija board We put a Bible on

16:53

top of it and all of a sudden the weed

16:55

the Bible flew across the room and the Ouija board

16:57

Levitated and all of a sudden like there's

17:00

something punched me and I'm now I flew

17:02

I flew across the floor And

17:04

there's like a well that was like

17:07

the Felix someone like it kicked me in the chest Yeah,

17:10

and he and all I could do was like it was to cry

17:12

out to Jesus I feel like I feel

17:14

like I'm crazy just telling you about this Well

17:17

the majority of either Christian I think a lot of Christian

17:19

pastors or even another Christian if they confided

17:21

them would say You're you're you're

17:23

crazy. You're crazy. Did you like did

17:26

you slip in like some DMT like

17:28

experience that? But it was I'm

17:31

actually paraphrasing a document a case in

17:33

dr Walton Martin's book Kingdom

17:35

of the occult of something that he would

17:37

go in he was the king of the skeptics when it

17:39

came to Like anything that was like some

17:41

sort of verifiable event like I need to have Independent

17:44

lions witness and testimonies and he'd even say

17:47

to he goes well before I even want to admit something's

17:49

a miracle I want to examine the evidence

17:51

down to the blood corpus holes because there's so

17:53

many things Around they're being perpetuate

17:55

as miracles of supernatural events that aren't

17:58

right just because there's counterfeits doesn't mean that there's

18:00

authentic. And I think that's one of the biggest

18:02

challenges, one, being able to help Christians

18:05

who experience something like that. I

18:07

had encounters like that even when I was

18:09

a child and stuff like that. But also,

18:12

one of the things we're talking about

18:14

the transfer between the Christian

18:17

worldview, theism, 1 versus 2, is you're

18:19

also saying, really

18:23

since 2020, there's this huge

18:25

explosion of revival of just people

18:28

who are coming out of the new age to Christ, like in

18:30

droves. Even major

18:33

new age influencers are trying to figure

18:35

out how to address it. They're trying to figure out,

18:37

okay, how do I actually handle this? Because so many people,

18:39

there was just someone, Kat Von D.

18:42

Kat Von D. Yeah. I was about to say. Yeah,

18:44

I had no idea who she was even until people started tagging

18:47

her, but she's large, like 9.2

18:49

million followers, has a pretty large following. But

18:52

people like her are just coming out

18:54

in droves. And it's like, okay, what do you do with

18:56

this stuff? But when you're ministering to

18:58

and counseling these people, you have

19:00

to acknowledge a reality that

19:03

they have seen things that we

19:05

haven't seen, praise the Lord. But

19:07

it's something that's real that Scripture talks

19:10

about. And if you don't acknowledge that reality,

19:13

you're going to end up gaslighting them and they're going to go

19:15

somewhere else looking for answers. And

19:17

the reality is, I have plenty of charismatic

19:20

brothers on that side of the aisle that I love,

19:22

that I care for, that I show charity to. But

19:25

there is a reality with the majority of people

19:27

who come out of the new age and the occult to Christ,

19:30

they end up in a charismatic church. And

19:33

the reason why is because whether

19:36

or not you agree with how they handle things in their

19:38

camp, they do acknowledge

19:40

the true tangible reality of

19:42

the supernatural realm. And that's an

19:44

area that, especially in the Reformed

19:47

world, needs to really

19:48

reform on. So for Reformers, we have to always

19:50

be Reforming. So I have some thoughts

19:53

to what you just said, Andrew. I'd really like that from

19:56

a pastor's perspective, like what you think about

19:58

this. So the first thing is... I

20:00

don't... so you're saying that just because there's

20:02

a counterfeit doesn't negate the authenticity of

20:04

some things. I would say like yeah, the abuse

20:07

of the thing doesn't negate the use of it. I

20:09

would even say a counterfeit almost validates

20:11

the authentic because it'd be

20:13

absurd to have a counterfeit of nothing, you know. And

20:16

then the other thing is that God's

20:18

not capricious. He doesn't give us things

20:20

to do and then fails to equip

20:23

us to do them. He equips us to do everything

20:25

that he commands. And one of the

20:27

things that he commands of a minister, of the pastor,

20:30

is to pastor everyone

20:32

that comes into his church. Becomes a member

20:34

of his church and says, I'm gonna

20:37

give an account for your soul to the

20:39

living God. Weighty charge as you

20:41

well know. You know, so how

20:44

do you reckon with the fact that a lot of

20:46

us, because praise the Lord, we were

20:49

raised in homes that weren't exposed to those

20:51

kind of things. But if we do,

20:53

you know, get into some kind of like pastoring

20:55

situation with someone that did, how can

20:58

we be equipped

20:59

to properly shepherd that person and

21:01

give an account to God for their soul

21:03

and what we've done? Does that make sense? Yeah,

21:05

that makes perfect sense. I'm another candidate

21:08

right now. Oh, not a pastor yet. You're the closest. I'm

21:10

the thing, bro, I'm a deacon. Yeah, but you're a candidate. I'm

21:13

just a deacon. All

21:15

right. So no,

21:17

yeah, I think that's a great question. I think a pastor

21:20

needs to be equipped with what's going on in the culture. Like

21:22

the pastor has to be culturally aware of

21:25

the world around him, like a pastor of

21:27

the times. Yeah, know the time, know the spirit

21:29

of the age, because the people that are going to be coming into your church

21:32

hopefully are coming to Christ from that. Right.

21:34

Right. So in order to best equip them to,

21:38

you know, to be on your best defense against the

21:40

dark arts, I don't even know why I'm speaking like some weird

21:42

Hogwarts. Is

21:44

to be is to know your word.

21:46

I think it's also to think covenantally, right,

21:49

and to think mainly on Christ and his kingship

21:51

and his authority and his rule and his power over

21:53

all of it. So what do you mean covenantal? Because I don't

21:56

know if people know this, but our view

21:58

of the covenant is slightly different.

21:59

between the two ends of the table. Oh, right,

22:02

right, right. You guys are back to the table. So let me explain. So

22:04

I'm thinking. I am not. Right. I'm

22:07

not gonna say what I am. Yeah. Yeah. So

22:10

let me explain. When I'm thinking in terms of

22:12

covenantal, I'm thinking about Christ's

22:14

kingship, and I think we would probably agree 110% on

22:17

the covenantal exchange that happened. So with

22:20

Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, we have Colossians,

22:22

right, where all rulers and authorities are disarmed

22:25

and put to open shame through him, that

22:27

federally as a human being, my

22:30

representative's no longer Adam, but in terms

22:32

of a king and a ruler of the world

22:34

in which the world will prosper, I'm

22:37

also not under the headship

22:39

or covenantal curses of

22:41

local presidents. Right? Yeah. I'm

22:43

under Christ in his kingship. Love it. And

22:45

I'd say so is the world. Right. So covenantally through

22:48

the what I can see and what I can't see, it's

22:50

all ruled and owned by Christ, and

22:53

since I'm kept in him, there's nothing but conquering.

22:55

Right, right. We are more than conquerors in

22:57

him who loves us. That's what I mean. No,

22:59

totally makes sense. I would

23:02

add another layer to that. Let's go. Let's go.

23:04

Yeah, let's go. I agree with it. Okay.

23:07

Of course I agree. The covenant head of humanity

23:09

is Christ now. You can reject your covenant

23:12

head and you will be damned, or

23:14

you can accept your covenant head in faith and you will be

23:16

saved.

23:19

A family,

23:21

you would agree, is also covenantal in structure,

23:23

to some degree. Yeah. So what if

23:26

you have a mother

23:28

and father who actually, actually,

23:31

Walter Martin talked about this in that video that you guys

23:33

sent me. I won't spoil everything for our upcoming exorcism

23:35

special. Yeah, but basically

23:38

this woman, she was married to a Christian

23:40

man. She was a teacher of Sunday school

23:42

in the church. She had been on mission

23:45

trips her whole life. You know, she was like bearing

23:47

the fruits of being a Christian for the most

23:49

part. And yet she

23:52

became demonically possessed. So it's a red

23:54

flag that, okay, she was not a Christian and

23:56

she, Lord willing, or praise

23:58

God, became one. But what

24:01

does that do to the children? That's

24:03

the question I'm getting at. Because I think that another

24:06

layer to the problem that we're seeing with the

24:09

incredible bankruptcy of materialism

24:12

is that you're also seeing lines

24:15

of materialism that are coming

24:17

to an end. But just

24:19

because a line of materialist

24:22

thinking comes to an end doesn't mean its

24:24

influence suddenly stops. So

24:27

really what I'm getting at is kind

24:29

of a question, kind of just a speculative

24:31

observation. What if we're about to

24:33

see in at

24:35

least some non-negligible

24:38

percentage of the church an incredible

24:40

mix-up between people

24:42

that are being faced with the brute reality

24:45

of the supernatural, and

24:47

yet they've been raised for generations materialistically,

24:50

and they have absolutely no clue

24:52

what to do with it, versus parts

24:55

of the body of Christ that are not that way,

24:57

and are going to be tempted to

25:00

maybe grow impatient. And

25:02

then also another layer to that is what

25:04

about families who were into

25:06

the occult and New Age practices

25:08

and things like that for generations, and

25:11

then their children become saved. Like

25:13

the baggage that comes from that, that

25:16

has to be a huge pastoral concern, especially

25:18

in Utah. Oh for sure. Because

25:20

it's been pagan for its entire history. And

25:23

so anyone that comes to Christ in Utah

25:25

that's lived here their whole life has either been

25:27

grown up in a home that used to be Mormon, and

25:30

is now probably some weird New Age atheism,

25:33

or is still Mormon

25:35

and they are the ones leading it. So

25:37

I guess what are the implications of that do you

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26:18

Yeah, well I think there's layers to it, you

26:20

know, and I think there's extremes of

26:22

everything. You know, right

26:24

now, like in the whole, like in

26:26

the whole cessation versus like charismatic,

26:28

it's kind of like some major tribal games in New York, tribal

26:31

war show going on between the camps.

26:33

Dibs on Daniel Day-Lewis. Right. Oh.

26:37

I know, I feel like I almost wanna like get in the character

26:39

of them. But you know, a lot of times in

26:41

the charismatic world, they will talk about like generational

26:43

curses, right? And I

26:45

think there's ways in which they take

26:47

that too far, but there is

26:50

something in scripture about 1,000, you

26:53

know, with you being on the Presbyterian

26:55

side of things, about 1,000 generations and about

26:58

a faithfulness. And when you look at

27:00

Psalm 112, which is one of my favorite Psalms,

27:02

where it talks about the blessed man who fears

27:05

the Lord and how his generations

27:07

will be blessed. So there is this principle

27:10

about this river that flows

27:12

downstream or upstream of just your generations

27:14

that go past. And I think

27:17

there is something that is truly

27:19

tangible when you look at, you know, there is, you talk

27:21

about people who are saved, they have a whole history of their

27:23

father and

27:26

their grandfather and great grandfather, for example, being

27:30

like a rigid alcoholics. You

27:32

have people that are saved during like the prohibition

27:34

movement, or their family lineage

27:36

goes back there. And there is something

27:38

about carrying down the sins

27:41

of the next generation, or, you know, the

27:43

sins of the father. And also

27:45

parental reconciliation, Malachi, when it talks

27:47

about the spirit of the Lord has come upon me

27:49

and how the hearts of the children will be turned

27:52

to their fathers and the fathers will be turned to their children.

27:54

So there is something that is true and tangible

27:56

there. And I think there is times where

27:59

a lot.

27:59

of

28:00

history of families are connected to the occult,

28:03

especially when it comes to like the covenant of witches,

28:05

there is something when those sort of people come to

28:07

Christ, there's this huge amount

28:10

of spiritual warfare, both pre-conversion,

28:13

when they're all of a sudden they're starting, God's beginning

28:15

to draw them, then afterwards

28:17

where there is that sort of a lot of

28:20

spiritual warfare, even sins of

28:22

the past in the same way in which, you

28:24

know, like in our earlier days during when

28:26

we were at Calvary Addiction Recovery Center, Jeff

28:30

was a chaplain at, so the majority of people coming out

28:32

of our congregation were former drug dealers,

28:34

former hookers, former, you know, you

28:37

name it, like the Jesse Pinkmans, all the Jesse

28:39

Pinkman-like characters, and all

28:41

the whole, every character in Breaking Bad

28:44

was like on some level part of Apologia during the

28:46

early days. But yeah,

28:48

we have for example somebody who, you know, committed

28:50

like a couple of felonies before they came

28:52

to Christ, where

28:55

they did things that were wrong, and there were

28:57

consequences for that, even like post-conversion.

29:00

There might be a tangible reality I'm open to

29:02

where somebody, they

29:04

tapped into things and they broke God's law

29:06

as far as things that are unseen that are

29:09

still a consequence you kind of have to deal with,

29:11

and that's going to be a part of like their sanctification.

29:14

So I think, I have sort of seen that

29:16

where there's a lot of unique sanctification

29:19

going on with like weightiness of somebody

29:21

who comes out of the new ways. There's so many

29:23

different things that happen, like they, a lot

29:26

of them when they first come to Christ, they become very conspiratorial.

29:29

And in fact, 2020, because the whole

29:31

world is such a madhouse, that's

29:35

a lot of them just that they sort of question

29:37

the world around them, their pre-commitments

29:40

of when you know what the new ways taught about them were kind

29:42

of shattered, but then all of a sudden your

29:45

confidence is in this hidden secret

29:47

esoteric knowledge and all of a sudden when that

29:50

skills go off your eyes, you realize that all that was

29:52

a satanic deception, you usually

29:54

pendulum swing where all of a sudden

29:56

everything's the devil almost. And there's a reason

29:58

to do that. just from an eschatological

30:01

standpoint, where the majority of people who

30:03

are in the New Age and the occult, they go

30:05

into a very rigid dispensationalism.

30:08

So if you look on what's going on in Israel, everyone

30:11

I know who's the next new age, they're

30:13

all into that, right? And the reason why is just

30:15

because that's usually where they end up. But

30:18

yeah, I think that when it comes to this

30:21

is that they do have a lot of, even

30:23

like New Age PTSD, even

30:26

if we're talking about someone whose life is hidden with

30:28

Christ and God, they have just

30:30

a lot of sort of baggage even when it comes to

30:33

experiences and they view the world through that.

30:35

That's why even in the whole conversation about

30:37

Halloween, if we talk about that, there's

30:40

a reason why the majority of

30:42

ex-New Agers and people

30:44

who are in the occult, they view Halloween

30:46

in extremely negative light because they're viewing

30:49

it through the lens of how it's been since the

30:51

1970s, having this

30:53

very dark,

30:54

rigid approach where now to this day and age, Halloween

30:56

just reflects our culture right now, which is the culture of death.

30:59

Yeah, I think a good way to think

31:02

about it in terms of, I

31:04

would say, quote unquote generational curses, I

31:06

think every generational curse that you may

31:08

have grown up with, if you become

31:10

saved, it's broken, it's done, it's gone. I

31:12

think there's an overwhelming support in the New

31:14

Testament where Paul's constantly reminding Christians

31:17

such were some of you who have been crucified with Christ.

31:19

The life I live no longer I live for me, but I live

31:21

for the Son of God, paraphrasing, that

31:25

it doesn't necessarily have a power over

31:27

us that it once had, but we need to have our

31:29

minds restored through Scripture.

31:31

Right. Because essentially sanctification

31:34

is different from justification. Right.

31:37

And justification is you are saved, you

31:39

are validated before God by your mediator.

31:42

But sanctification now is the long

31:44

and usually grueling process

31:47

of growing in holiness. Right. And

31:49

so yeah, I guess the point is like, we have to make

31:52

sure we draw a line of distinction between

31:54

evangelizing these people into the

31:56

church, praise God, and then

31:58

also the.

31:59

shepherding them. These are two different tasks

32:02

and they require different skill sets, different wisdom,

32:04

all these things. It's very fascinating.

32:07

That is some interesting stuff. We live

32:09

in a world in true

32:11

reality that because of what Jesus Christ

32:14

did on the cross, no matter what, everyone is essentially

32:16

coming to Christ in one way.

32:18

There's either his judgment or his blessing. Christ

32:20

is the Lord. In Psalm chapter 2, right?

32:22

So when we're even thinking about what's going

32:24

on in our world today, none of it is

32:27

outside of God's control. Arising paganism

32:29

doesn't mean that God is losing anything.

32:33

No, it's the exact opposite. It's because our nation

32:35

has to obey what Christ says and we don't

32:37

obey him, we

32:38

get handed over to things. Right. Yeah, exactly.

32:42

I always think of it like the

32:44

armies of men and Lord of the Rings at

32:47

the Black Gates, the men of the west of the Black

32:49

Gates of Mordor and Gollum

32:52

and Frodo together kind of throw

32:54

the ring into the fire and everything

32:57

crashes, bear dure falls, the gates are

32:59

crumbling, the ground is swallowing up. This

33:01

is the movie version, but the book is similar enough.

33:04

And so the victory is won. Yeah, that's

33:06

Christ on the cross, his death, burial, resurrection

33:09

and ascension. That is the victory that is

33:11

won and it's overwhelming. The world

33:13

is Christ. It no longer is the prince

33:15

of the power of the area. It is under the dominion of

33:18

Christ completely, but

33:21

there remains outposts of the enemy

33:23

that have to go and be dealt with. This

33:26

is one of the things if we want to get into like

33:28

more Halloween type stuff.

33:30

Halloweeny. Halloweeny.

33:32

I actually used to listen to a podcast called the Halloweenies.

33:35

I don't recommend it. The language is foul,

33:37

but it was like fans of the movie, Halloween.

33:40

Like Myers and stuff? Yeah. And they would just geek out about like

33:43

all the behind the scenes stuff. It was, yeah,

33:45

anyway, funny name. But so

33:47

this is one of the things that drove the Puritans

33:50

to the new world was their

33:52

functionally post-millennial eschatology, recognizing

33:56

Christ's dominion over the whole earth and saying

33:58

it's our duty.

33:59

It's our birthright

34:01

to take that dominion because we are

34:03

already belonging to Christ. Two

34:06

parts of the world that don't yet know

34:08

its covenant status. Your

34:10

covenant status is already there. You just don't know it yet. Exactly.

34:14

So we have to make sure you're fully aware of what's going on. And

34:16

that was, apart from political

34:18

stuff with the Anglican Church, that was one of their big driving

34:20

forces. And so when they got here, and

34:23

I'm sure you guys know this, they would clear out the Massachusetts

34:25

Bay Colony and all the other New England colonies.

34:28

And anything that was outside of that perimeter that

34:31

they cleared belonged to

34:33

the devil in their eyes. They were like, the devil

34:35

is still reigning here because he knows that whatever

34:37

people or whatever land and animals are

34:39

there don't know the covenant status

34:42

yet. And so it's fertile

34:44

ground for the devil to go and sow

34:46

his seeds of deception. And

34:48

so they literally thought like if you spent a lot of

34:50

time in the woods, they didn't trust you because

34:53

you were like, why are you spending so much time in

34:56

the realm that the devil is still trying

34:58

to control? Interesting. So we get

35:01

into the witch thing. A lot

35:03

of the reason that people got accused of witchcraft,

35:05

well, not a lot, some of it, was because they

35:07

spent an abnormal amount of time in

35:09

the woods. And so they saw that as,

35:11

well, that's the devil's playground. Like literally,

35:14

that's where the devil still thinks that he can reign

35:16

in his own self-deception.

35:19

Why would you go there and spend a lot of

35:21

time? We have to go there in an organized

35:23

way together. But

35:26

anyway, like that just shows

35:28

us how deep this idea of covenant

35:30

restoration of the world goes,

35:33

where even the land itself has

35:36

to be made aware of the covenant status so

35:38

that it can begin to bear the fruit of righteousness and

35:41

the people in keeping with repentance. But

35:43

let's talk about witches. Are you all cool with

35:45

that? Yeah.

35:48

What do you think? I

35:50

mean, they're real. Crazy open-ended question. Yeah.

35:53

I mean, it's real. They

35:56

have a worldview where

35:58

they do believe that There is and it's

36:01

it's also the worldview of one ism where

36:03

there's no distinction between the material the material

36:05

and the immaterial And so because of that worldview

36:08

they believe that they can somehow create

36:10

You know elemental, you know potions and they

36:12

can manipulate spirits and that and that's

36:14

usually new having you know You know white witches

36:17

and you have light light magic dark

36:19

magic and you have always but

36:22

there's a fundamental worldview Which it comes

36:24

from where which is one ism

36:27

a distinction between them No distinction between the material

36:29

and the immaterial But what they're

36:31

the powers that they're tapping into to do these

36:33

things are the a satanic

36:36

power So in reality there are the witches are

36:38

living in a world that's created by Christ

36:40

and for Christ Where the only thing

36:42

the only thing that they're doing one

36:44

is given by permission by God If

36:47

nothing happens without his consent,

36:49

right? But ultimately they're giving themselves over to

36:51

the enemy to be able to tap into these things

36:54

So yeah there's a tangible reality to it

36:56

and I think people realize that that

36:59

if if there is if everything was

37:01

a sham and This whole thing is a hoax There's

37:04

no but the mark sometimes the marketplace speaks

37:06

for itself So when there's 50 billion,

37:09

you know, the hashtag witch talk is 50

37:11

60 billion. I can look it up right now See what it is There's

37:15

a tangible there's something doesn't get to

37:17

that

37:18

length of interest without there

37:20

being a tangible reality to it Right

37:22

some kind of power. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

37:25

Absolutely, which is a real I

37:28

think there's this thirst for esoteric

37:31

knowledge secret things That

37:33

leads people into the occult to

37:35

do spells or any type of incantation

37:38

or ritual Typically

37:40

based off of a text or a writing right

37:43

their own sacred types of

37:45

utensils or objects and They

37:48

they exist. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, do you

37:50

I am I scared of them? No, right? Yeah

37:53

I don't think any any Christian should be right

37:55

Yeah, and I think I think the modern form

37:57

of what we could call a witch on like witch talk

38:00

something like that is nothing like a medieval

38:02

form of witches. I'm not even sure what

38:04

the medieval form of witches is, you could

38:06

probably tell me. But yeah,

38:09

a lot of it is just based off

38:12

of

38:14

the Corpus Hermeticum, which is a body

38:16

of writings that was discovered around

38:18

the Renaissance period that was translated

38:21

into the languages of that time, which

38:23

had... the phrase of, as above so

38:25

below, comes from the Corpus Hermeticum.

38:27

A lot of our occultic,

38:29

modern-day occultic practices literally

38:32

come from those... that body of writings, like 24 different

38:34

bodies of writings. Some of the early church fathers

38:37

mentioned the Corpus Hermeticum. I

38:39

did not know that. Yeah, it's the as

38:41

above so below thing. It's

38:44

Hellenistic Egyptian writing, the

38:46

Corpus Hermeticum, at least where it comes from, the claims

38:48

of it. So it blends Egyptian

38:51

occultism and some early

38:53

Greek occultism together.

38:56

The Corpus Hermeticum, yeah, you can look up that actual

38:58

thing. Yeah, because we're looking... One

39:00

of the big things that we like to talk about on Hana

39:02

Cosmos is how the

39:04

deception of the deceiver or the deceivers

39:08

really doesn't fundamentally change.

39:10

It's always like Has God Really Said and

39:12

iterations of that. But it

39:14

is repackaged for different periods

39:17

of technological advancement or societal

39:19

advancement in the world. And so

39:21

I was just thinking recently, like,

39:23

and even just listening to you guys talk right now about

39:26

kind of a timeline of witchcraft through

39:29

history. So we know, of course,

39:31

the Canaanites were engaged in it heavily.

39:33

The law of Canaan included necromancy,

39:36

sorcery, witchcraft, all that stuff. We

39:38

see the Witch of Endor in King

39:41

Saul's day, and she's doing very traditional

39:44

witchcraft. Familiar spirit, communing

39:46

with the dead. It's charlatanism,

39:49

but it's actually real charlatanism in a way,

39:51

if that makes sense. But then it

39:53

almost seems... So then in the Middle Ages actually,

39:55

what's really fascinating is that with the spread

39:58

of Christendom,

39:59

you had a...

39:59

complete

40:01

stoppage of witchcraft Well, praise

40:03

God or complete enough to where it doesn't show up in the historical

40:05

record during that time, right? but instead

40:08

what you had

40:09

were More light magic practices

40:12

and even the clergy Practicing

40:14

the use of charms. Okay where they would

40:17

use a charm or a talisman to like bless

40:19

a field or someone's livestock or whatever

40:21

They amalgamated something right which is like

40:23

just kind of the same thing Like

40:26

the belief in sacred relics. Yes. Yeah, exactly.

40:28

So you have that which is Seems

40:31

very akin to

40:33

everything but it's repackaged to be Christian

40:36

now, right and I I'm

40:38

not gonna propose any views on that at all but

40:41

and then now in the modern day you have this

40:43

like It's

40:45

almost like the twisting of nature's arm

40:48

to achieve ends that are contrary to

40:51

nature you know, like someone sent me a video

40:53

of someone pouring blood

40:56

that they had Spilled

40:59

they like got a cut or something and then they

41:01

collected the blood from the cut before they stopped

41:03

the bleeding And then they poured it back into

41:05

the earth and the idea was that you're

41:07

giving your which is interesting that they know

41:09

that This is true. You're giving your life essence We're

41:12

told by God that the light the blood is the life

41:14

of the thing back into the source

41:16

of life Gaia Mother Earth and

41:18

you're like that's just witchcraft That's

41:22

just plain whatever end you're hoping to

41:24

achieve from that is bad Yeah,

41:26

it's a witchcraft in but it's

41:28

fascinating how you can even see clear

41:30

demonic influence Yeah in a

41:32

in a in a brand of wicca today

41:35

This very focused on nature

41:37

and material and and naturally supposedly

41:40

natural things. Yeah, it's just funny

41:42

how that demonic influence permeates

41:45

everything

41:46

absolutely and it makes it a really valid and

41:48

I think Tricky

41:50

deception. Yeah I mean Paul kind of highlights

41:52

that in Romans chapter 1 when we exchange the

41:54

worship for the glory of the immortal

41:57

God for you Know images resembling

41:59

creeping and crawling things and we worship the creation

42:02

instead of the creator, like false worship, false

42:04

gods, like these things have been things we do all

42:06

the time. It's interesting you talk about the blood, so

42:08

like early in the Bible we hear about the blood

42:11

poisoning the ground. It's the exact opposite.

42:13

In all reality, the source of life doesn't

42:16

come from the ground, it comes from God. Well

42:18

it's interesting, so are y'all

42:20

doing the Bible reading plan that Moscow puts

42:23

out? Do y'all follow that? Oh yeah, I follow that. Okay,

42:25

that's what I follow too, and we're in Leviticus.

42:27

And so Leviticus 18 is one of my favorite

42:29

chapters, because it goes through just all of

42:31

these horrible sexual practices that the Canaanites

42:33

were doing. That's not why it's my favorite chapter. And

42:37

then it interjects really

42:40

quick, and you shall not give

42:42

your children to Molech, rhyme language along

42:44

those lines. So already you're thinking, okay,

42:46

so sexual degeneracy is somehow associated

42:48

with child sacrifice, at least in the minds

42:51

of the Canaanites. And then it says

42:54

that it's for these reasons the land

42:56

is spitting them out, and vomiting

42:58

them up. Vomiting them out, yep. It is, that

43:01

verse is crazy to me. But

43:03

when you start to think of things in terms

43:06

of the blood being the life of a thing,

43:08

well sexual degeneracy does

43:11

spill human blood, clearly. Child

43:13

sacrifice very obviously spills innocent

43:15

human blood. And so when the land is drinking

43:18

that up, it grows sick.

43:21

And so it spits you out. And

43:23

then the land later

43:25

drank up the river of life that was the blood

43:28

of Christ, and from there it's

43:30

spread to cover from a river to the ends of the

43:32

earth, and hopefully things will be made better. But

43:34

then you take that, and I'm like coming into the modern

43:37

day, I always say this unironically,

43:40

I'm like, man, imagine how beautiful Utah's gonna

43:42

be in 500 years when it's Christian.

43:45

We're not gonna have a drought anymore, it's

43:47

gonna be fertile and beautiful, not

43:49

just the mountains, but all of it is gonna

43:51

be beautiful. Why? Because the land

43:53

is gonna be drinking up the blood

43:55

of wickedness, it's gonna be instead

43:58

enjoying the fruits of God.

43:59

the righteous who are spreading Christ

44:02

all through the... anyway. I'm just

44:04

ranting. No, no, no. Pastor Wayne and I talk about

44:06

this all the time. We say, I'm like, man, they really want us to

44:08

reign out here. Well, they need to get on the news and they need to

44:11

tell people to repent of their Mormon and they're going to come to Christ. They

44:13

say Christ is Lord. Yeah. It will reign. It

44:15

will probably reign. Yeah. Well, even talking

44:17

about, you know, the spirit of Molech

44:20

is that if you were to tell us,

44:23

like when we started the abortion

44:25

ministry with Apologia 10 years

44:28

ago, that the majority of people working at the Planned

44:30

Parenthood were people that were devout, Satanists,

44:33

members of the temple, the satanic temple, or even witches

44:36

that were out there. Like one of the very first times

44:38

I was out there at one

44:40

of the... we had the First End Abortion Now conference and then we

44:42

went out to the most popular Planned

44:45

Parenthood here in Phoenix. I was on the front lines

44:47

and I had witches coming up to me trying

44:49

to throw incantations and curses blowing

44:51

incense in my face. Wow. And

44:54

I just was like, oh, okay.

44:57

Well, I now know whose team you're on. And I just

44:59

rebuked them. I said, yeah, Christ

45:01

is Lord. And those elements, whatever you're throwing

45:03

on me has nothing over Christ

45:05

completed work. I had a quote of Colossians 2.15.

45:08

I just proclaimed that and I just said,

45:10

you've got no... whatever you're trying to throw on me has

45:12

no authority over me. And it was just like...

45:16

and I'm doing this. It's like, this is just happening in real

45:18

time. I'm just saying these things because I felt like this was... I

45:20

was being inclined to say to these witches that are trying to curse

45:22

me. You know, when you... and it was like, why

45:24

should we be surprised when

45:27

you see people like demonically manifest?

45:29

I mean, when you were looking at... with

45:32

Jeff, with Pastor Jeff, he was at John

45:34

Barrow's... at John Barrow's with Florida

45:37

and he was talking about the interactions with them and he

45:39

said from the pulpit said, everyone, these people that was interacting

45:41

with them, they're all controlled by demons. Wow. And

45:44

we should have a polemic where we shouldn't be afraid to

45:46

say that because in a way, the same

45:51

way how they put their children to the fire, we're doing

45:54

the same thing now. Like all... now when you look

45:56

at... when... like there's a reason why

45:59

when you look at Romans

45:59

when you

46:00

look at Romans chapter 1, and

46:03

when you look at the very first thing that happens when

46:05

you work at the creation, instead of the Creator,

46:07

when you embrace the worldview of one

46:10

versus two, the immediate byproduct

46:12

of it, there's a distortion of gender. The

46:16

roles get reversed. The men take on the

46:18

role of women. The women take on the role

46:20

of men. So there's a reason why in

46:23

the New Age, you see women try to

46:25

embrace their inner divine goddess and they end up

46:27

wearing the pants, and all the men become

46:29

super effeminate and you

46:32

just see that. And that's one

46:34

of the reasons too why there's this huge new hunger,

46:36

because both men and women

46:39

know that's not the roles that God created them for.

46:41

But what you really end up seeing

46:45

in the whole worldview is that this

46:47

is the reason why we're dealing with transgenderism

46:50

the way that it is right now. In the same way with how

46:53

Molech was, like even Pastor James said, even

46:56

the people who threw their children to Molech

46:59

knew what gender they're throwing into the fire.

47:01

Now we're doing the exact same thing.

47:04

We're letting children be

47:06

the measure of all things, and then to

47:08

back them off, then we go ahead and pump

47:10

them up with something to try and change

47:12

up their generals, or we cut off their private parts.

47:15

And this is being celebrated on the national scale

47:17

in less than five years.

47:20

So when you're looking at, okay, what's the actual

47:22

spirit going on behind

47:24

that? That's something you have to be able to look into.

47:27

Yeah. And you can't ignore it. And that's

47:29

why you're looking at this when

47:31

you're talking about the great transfer of worldviews. The

47:34

cosmos are haunted, but they're

47:36

going to be – all the cosmos are

47:39

going to be under the authority of Christ, and where Christ

47:41

is still in the process of advancing his kingdom, there

47:44

are other things that people are tapped

47:46

into. When you look at the old native spirits, or when you

47:48

look at – there was a film like The Northman

47:51

that was about the Viking movie that

47:54

came out about two years ago. It's kind of like the save of a private

47:56

ride in a Vikings movie. But it shows –

47:58

it was such a –

47:59

arc

48:00

film because it just showed the brutality

48:04

of these different tribal Vikings

48:06

who were just worshipping all the gods of old

48:09

but who are all just rampant and brutal

48:11

and killing each other. And there's a scene

48:13

where you actually sort of see something

48:16

about them mentioning they're aware of this sort of this Christian

48:19

God and they're just like, who's this Christian

48:21

God? Like he just allowed himself to be crucified? Like that's

48:23

foolishness. And it's just funny because

48:26

we all know how it turned out for them. The

48:28

gospel conquered those kingdoms. Of course it's

48:30

foolishness to them. They're men. Yeah.

48:34

So I think there's something like with

48:37

our like this discussion about

48:39

the causes that are haunted with the advancement of the

48:41

gospel, especially with being having

48:43

a post-colonial eschatology, you're looking

48:45

at this kingdom. So it's not just

48:48

the nations in Psalm chapter 2

48:50

that are going to be conquered by Christ. You're

48:53

seeing that, but you're also looking at the

48:55

gods that those nations have have yield

48:57

themselves over to a better slavery

49:01

that Christ is in the process of continuing

49:03

to make a public spectacle out of them. And shame,

49:05

puts them to open shame. Yeah.

49:08

And then it's too, you're like, okay, so

49:10

all of these pagans, it's a target rich environment.

49:13

What I'm saying is that we should be very positive and excited

49:16

because we're post-millennials and so it's

49:18

a target rich environment, which means that

49:21

all of these pagans that we're seeing today are going

49:23

to follow in the grand pagan tradition of converting

49:26

to Christianity and Christ is

49:28

just like the Vikings. So it's

49:30

going to be really good news for us. Yeah. Like

49:33

that's the part of the way I think about it. I could

49:35

be totally wrong about this, but when

49:37

I see God conquering all of these things,

49:40

I don't see them coming back the way they

49:42

were. Right. I see what

49:44

I see with the modern society and the modern

49:46

forms of paganism is they're trying to resurrect

49:49

the dead gods of the past. They're

49:51

like rebuilding them and they're trying to suture

49:53

them up with all kinds of different things to try

49:55

to keep them alive. Right. They're

49:57

behind them and moving their arms. It's only a matter

49:59

of time. before those things fall to pieces.

50:02

It's like a Frankenstein monster of old gods.

50:04

Exactly, I don't think you can actually resurrect

50:07

something that God has actually called conquered.

50:09

Right. But you can try to recreate

50:11

it, you can try to find different

50:14

texts that talk about things from ancient

50:16

times and try to do incantations or this

50:19

or that. I'm not saying there's no power in any of those things,

50:21

of course there is, but I don't think it's like it was before. I

50:23

don't think it is like before Christ. And

50:26

I find it interesting, you talk about the medieval time, there were

50:28

no talks about witches because

50:31

Christ was conquering them. Yeah. What

50:33

we should be thinking about as the church or

50:36

the body of Christ is our hearts should

50:38

be breaking for the individuals that are searching

50:40

for things to bring them peace

50:42

when the true answer is what the church

50:44

holds. Right. The keys of the kingdom,

50:46

which is the power of the gospel. Because I think

50:49

it's R.C. Sproul Jr. or it could be R.C. Sproul who

50:51

said this, I could be wrong too, but he

50:53

says the culture is the report card of the church.

50:56

So how are you doing? Yeah, well, I

50:59

think it was Henry Vantill that the

51:01

culture is religion externalized. Right, yeah.

51:03

So that would be directly correlated.

51:05

Yeah, I mean, and I believe that. Like

51:08

if I am a Christian and I'm looking

51:10

at the world that I'm living in today, well, the church

51:12

has the living water that flows

51:14

out from it. Like you said, their earth groans for

51:16

their dealing of the sons of God.

51:18

It wants to drink from that river. If

51:21

our neighbor is suffering, it's because we're not getting

51:23

the first table of the law, right? Right. We're

51:25

not loving God correctly to love our neighbor correctly because the

51:28

person that doesn't know God, they

51:30

can't help themselves. Right, right. All right,

51:32

amen. So we need to be the ones to help them help themselves.

51:35

So I think what God is doing in terms

51:37

of letting people resurrect these dead gods

51:40

and creating these Frankenstein type religions

51:43

is he's

51:43

trying to tell us, you need to get out there

51:46

and do your job. Yeah, yeah. Right, these people

51:48

are dying so much

51:50

for some form of peace and you're not doing what

51:52

you're doing that they're trying to piece together a

51:55

dead man's bones. And they're wearing

51:57

them. It's interesting just kind of going back

51:59

to the earth.

51:59

Earth Mother thing with the blood and all that. We

52:03

look through Scripture and a clear indication

52:06

of evil is serpent imagery in Scripture,

52:08

whether it's serpent itself or in Revelation where

52:10

it explicitly says dragon, although

52:12

it's always talking about a dragon the whole time. And

52:16

then you look at Earth Mother religious

52:18

practices in the Celtic regions of

52:20

Ireland or even in northern France and

52:22

Germany. The thing that they would

52:25

oftentimes worship was the Earth Mother and

52:27

it was in the form of a serpent. Almost

52:30

all the time and it lived under the Earth. This

52:32

is what C.S. Lewis was doing in the silver

52:34

chair. He was playing off of this trope where

52:36

the Queen of Underland or whatever, she looks

52:39

very fair because she's the mother

52:41

of the land.

52:42

And yet

52:43

when, what's his name?

52:45

What's the guy's name? In the silver chair.

52:47

Oh, Puddle Glum. Oh man, I'm so

52:49

mad at myself for forgetting the best character of

52:51

the book's name. But

52:53

yeah, when Puddle Glum finally

52:55

says it for what it is and she

52:57

takes her true form, which is this grotesque serpent,

53:00

it's just interesting how these two

53:02

things are always linked. The

53:05

conflation of the creature creator distinction

53:08

is always linked to the worship of Earth, which

53:11

is a created thing. And then that is always

53:14

taken back to serpentine imagery. Everywhere, everywhere.

53:17

I mean, all of the giant myths in

53:19

all of the ancient world that included the

53:21

intermingling of divinity with man, which

53:23

all of them did, the giants always without

53:25

exception came from a mixture of the divine

53:28

and the human. And every single time

53:30

those giants were leading the people in the worship

53:33

of their fallen divinity,

53:35

which was connected to the Earth, which

53:37

was of course the serpent. So you see

53:40

always like the places

53:43

of worship are usually obsessed

53:45

with serpentine imagery. You see this in Ohio with

53:47

the serpent mound. You see this in the

53:49

Golan Heights with the Gilead Rephaim that's

53:52

just south of Mount Herman. And

53:55

then you see it elsewhere as well, like in Peru

53:57

and things like that. It's just fascinating how these two... two

54:00

things are linked. Hey guys, I just want to let you

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or chat with atshane.hawaii

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on Instagram. Take it easy guys. Do

54:34

you think there's a danger in, there's,

54:37

I think there's a danger in ignoring and sticking

54:39

your head in the sand when it comes

54:41

to what I believe is gonna be one

54:43

of the major things that's gonna happen within

54:46

the West and also for the church

54:48

is gonna deal with I think the next 15 to 20 years is

54:50

gonna be one of the biggest challenges is just neo-paganism

54:53

is gonna be even more of a resurgence. I think

54:56

you're gonna see Burning Man festivals in every single

54:58

state on a regular basis. It's

55:00

probably something my children are gonna have to deal with.

55:03

There's a danger I think between sticking

55:06

your head in the sand and just saying that's

55:08

not a reality. Very similar to when King

55:10

Thaddeus said, I will not risk open war.

55:13

And Erich Hohen said, open war is upon you whether you

55:15

wish it or not. God, what a king, both

55:18

of them. Yes, I know. And

55:21

I'm gonna go back to Gordon Thaddeus in

55:23

a second. I don't know if the rabbi have an idea where to take this,

55:25

but there's also a danger, I

55:27

think, what do you think there's also a danger between

55:31

overreacting to it? Because

55:33

when you look at the 80s, you had a lot

55:35

of crazy evil things that really

55:37

were going on, but you had a

55:39

huge overreaction amongst fundamentalists,

55:43

amongst other people too that created the satanic

55:45

panic. And that entailed

55:47

a lot of false accusations, a

55:49

lot of sensationalism, people's lives being

55:51

destroyed. Not,

55:54

people being accused in the same way the way the Salem

55:56

Witch Trials happened, people being accused

55:58

of satanic ritual abuse. without due process

56:01

and people's lives being destroyed. When

56:03

you kind of look at what's going on, I see

56:05

it all around me, I see people

56:07

overreacting, and I see the potential for satanic

56:10

panic part two.

56:11

What do you guys think? I definitely

56:13

think so. I think that humans are reactionary

56:15

creatures. Bobbing says that the

56:18

heart has reasons which reason itself knows

56:20

nothing of. So if your heart's not anchored

56:23

in the truth of the scripture, then it's going

56:25

to be tossed about by your own wild

56:28

tossing about, which is usually

56:31

your fear. You know, like fear is what you give your

56:33

mind to. So when you fear the Lord, your mind

56:37

is grounded, but when you fear something

56:39

else or heaven forbid you fear

56:41

yourself, you're going to be tossed to

56:43

and fro and you're going to be very reactionary.

56:46

So I think it's easy, it's very easy

56:48

to overreact, it's easy to get excited about this

56:50

kind of thing. When to learn that something actually

56:52

isn't taboo that you thought was, and then you

56:54

can get way too deep, way too quick,

56:56

and you can also conflate the

57:00

enemy capital E with

57:02

the individual who is engaged with

57:05

that enemy in practicing sin. Like

57:07

it goes back to something you said earlier, where like we

57:09

have to have our hearts broken over the individuals

57:12

that are struggling with these things. Completely,

57:14

yes, and people miss that, especially

57:16

in our camp. We have to have hearts

57:19

that are broken for those that don't know

57:21

Christ, because but for His grace there

57:24

go we. But we also

57:26

have to have a tenacious

57:28

hatred for what the enemy is doing.

57:31

So it's important to distinguish between the

57:34

broad movement of the enemy

57:37

and then also the individual that's caught in

57:39

that and say, okay, enemy

57:41

I want you dead. I hate you with perfect

57:43

hatred. Psalm 109, I think. Or

57:45

Psalm, yeah Psalm 109. I hate you with perfect

57:47

hatred. Individual

57:49

who is deceived by by Satan,

57:52

who's engaged in sin, just like I was,

57:54

come here. Come

57:56

taste the living water of Christ. Be free

57:58

from that. It's like

57:59

when Theoden

58:02

says to Gremma regarding Saruman, be free

58:05

of him, and he can, you

58:07

know? He hates Saruman for

58:09

what he's doing, but he still has

58:12

a sincere tenderness in his heart for

58:15

Gremma, despite the horrible

58:18

evil that Gremma participated in. So

58:20

I think that that's a really easy, low-hanging

58:22

fruit way to keep yourself from being

58:24

reactionary and going way too far in the other direction.

58:27

And that is to always remember the distinction between

58:29

capital E enemy and the individual

58:32

who may by all earthly accounts

58:34

be your enemy, but you're still called to love your enemy.

58:36

So you should pray for that person and you should hope

58:38

for their repentance. And then also, going

58:41

back to what I said earlier, I think that a key

58:44

guardrail is just the orthodoxy

58:46

that we have in the Reformed tradition and

58:48

saying like, we have to constantly be

58:50

reminding ourselves of our love, of

58:53

the first things, the foundation,

58:55

the, you know, salvation in Christ and

58:58

the Reformed understanding of that. And we

59:00

have, if we don't keep going back to that

59:02

and realizing its beauty and being compelled by

59:04

its beauty, then we may grow

59:07

discontent with it, which would be sinful.

59:10

And then we may be hoping to leap

59:12

over the boundary of orthodoxy and

59:14

get into areas that we have absolutely

59:17

no business playing in. So enjoying

59:19

the field of orthodoxy that God's given

59:21

us, exploring it fully. But when

59:23

we reach the fence line, don't just

59:25

turn around. I mean, you know, do don't

59:27

cross it, but also love the

59:30

fence line. Yeah. Love what you

59:32

see when you see the fence posts be like, praise God, this

59:34

is wonderful. I'll go back over into that other

59:36

direction. Those are very like high level

59:38

conceptual principled ideas. But,

59:41

but I do think they're important. Yeah, I think Paul says

59:43

that in Colossians 2, he says all treasures

59:45

of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ. And

59:48

then he says abound in your thanksgiving, for

59:50

your salvation. And right after that, he says, don't

59:52

let anyone fool you in empty philosophy

59:55

and deceit. Right. That nature of the elemental spirits

59:57

literally is exactly what you said. Right. We have to hold

59:59

intention. the charge that Solomon gives

1:00:01

us, that it's God's glory

1:00:04

to conceal a thing, and it's the glory of kings

1:00:06

to search them out. So searching

1:00:08

out a hidden thing is glorious

1:00:11

and good in the eyes of God, and yet

1:00:13

what Paul says later, which is he admonishes

1:00:16

all Christians to be mature in thought

1:00:18

but infants in evil. So

1:00:20

holding those two things, realizing that they're friends,

1:00:23

but holding them in intention, being pulled

1:00:25

equally by them, I think helps

1:00:27

keep you on the straight and narrow for sure. Yeah,

1:00:29

that's a good way to think about it, because we can see

1:00:32

even within the church at large today, kind

1:00:34

of doing what they did in the medieval time with these holy

1:00:36

relics or whatever, or amalgamating certain

1:00:39

pagan practices, like we have some churches where

1:00:41

people are imparting Shakti pot on other individuals

1:00:43

on the floor doing belly-holy laughter.

1:00:46

It's like the same thing, right? If they don't

1:00:49

have the parameters, the

1:00:52

knee-jerk overreaction is also

1:00:54

to put some of those practices into

1:00:56

the church. Right. You know what I mean? The

1:00:58

C.S. Lewis said that the devil loves

1:01:01

two things, when someone

1:01:03

thinks that nothing is from

1:01:05

him and that he doesn't exist, and when someone

1:01:08

thinks that everything is from him. Right.

1:01:10

And so it just, to your point, like those are both,

1:01:12

I think, equally dangerous. In

1:01:15

fact, it may be more dangerous when

1:01:18

an organization

1:01:20

presents itself as a lampstand of the living

1:01:22

God, but in reality, is being completely

1:01:24

deceived by the powers of darkness because

1:01:27

they overreacted to it and ended up just

1:01:29

doing the same exact things. Exactly. Well,

1:01:31

and also when you think about this whole

1:01:34

thing about overreactionary, overreactionary,

1:01:37

there's a danger in just ignoring it, sticking your

1:01:39

head in the sand. But when you realize too,

1:01:41

in Sun Tzu, the art of war, one

1:01:44

of the opening lines where he talks about all warfare

1:01:46

is based on deception. When you are small,

1:01:48

you must deceive your enemy and think you have large forces

1:01:50

when you have large forces. Yep. And

1:01:52

when you have large forces, right here, all warfare is based.

1:01:55

And I was like, I don't know if I agree with that. All

1:02:00

warfare is based. All warfare.

1:02:04

But yeah, there's this... And

1:02:08

so when you look at even like a big part of war, it's propaganda.

1:02:11

So in Christopher Nolan's film Dunkirk, the very

1:02:13

beginning segment of it, you have these soldiers that are

1:02:15

walking through, and all these propaganda leaflets are

1:02:17

falling down. And one of the soldiers grabs

1:02:19

them, they're falling out of the sky, they're being dropped by the German

1:02:22

planes, and he sees this map. And

1:02:24

they look this... this leaflet that's dropped,

1:02:26

and they said, we surround you. And they

1:02:28

had all these arrows showing where these 4,000 men

1:02:30

were pinned up against the English Channel. So

1:02:33

that's something to incite fear into

1:02:35

people. So there is a lot

1:02:37

of times, I think, propaganda that

1:02:39

is given by the enemy to say that, I

1:02:41

am here, I am everywhere, we surround

1:02:44

you. And you look at it

1:02:46

through that line where in reality, you start looking

1:02:48

at all that's going around the

1:02:51

world today. And there's almost this emphasis of

1:02:53

people who focus so much on the

1:02:55

devil and the demons and all that,

1:02:57

where it becomes like the

1:02:59

king of Gondor when he goes, But in your

1:03:01

posts, flee for your lives.

1:03:04

The steward of Gondor? The

1:03:06

steward of Gondor? The steward. Okay. He's

1:03:08

not the king. Yeah. Okay. Look.

1:03:12

You've got to correct yourself, since we're all talking here. Yeah,

1:03:14

you're the worst son of a cthillion. You see

1:03:16

an emphasis where people react

1:03:19

in that way when you

1:03:22

see a lot of craziness in

1:03:25

the world right now and knowledge of

1:03:27

the reality of the demon, of the demonic. But

1:03:29

I see people who go there, and they stay

1:03:31

there, and I see them emulating

1:03:33

that. And I think the way the

1:03:36

chaser, the clump of ginger to chomp

1:03:38

on to reset your palate, do we balance

1:03:41

in all this? And it's looking at who Christ

1:03:43

conquered, right? So in other words,

1:03:45

I mean, people who obsess or just make this big

1:03:47

idea that Satan's everywhere, if you stay there, it's

1:03:50

the equivalence of New York Giants fans who think they're going

1:03:52

to win the Super Bowl. And you're looking at, you

1:03:54

know, it's like Aaron Rodgers. He broke

1:03:56

his ankle in the first play. Some great

1:03:59

memes came out of that. Yeah, I know. But

1:04:01

there's an example too where it's like, this

1:04:05

is the reality of where Satan is. This is

1:04:07

what Christ did when he

1:04:09

came in and invaded the world.

1:04:11

And there were spirits that were at work

1:04:14

in King Herod when he wanted to go.

1:04:16

We always look at this romanticized nativity

1:04:19

scene when it comes to Christmas, but we don't

1:04:22

look at the spiritual reality

1:04:26

where it wasn't just this beautiful

1:04:29

manger scene, the nativity scene. It

1:04:31

was the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan

1:04:33

landing on the beachhead of a world that

1:04:36

was just oppressed by all

1:04:38

sorts of elemental spirits. And you see the spirit

1:04:40

that goes behind King Herod that goes

1:04:42

and try to kill all the firstborn,

1:04:44

the same spirit that was probably in the

1:04:47

Egyptian King when they went after Moses.

1:04:49

The Israel becomes Egypt. Yeah, you

1:04:51

see that parallel there. And all

1:04:54

of a sudden you have Christ who goes

1:04:56

in and he's tempted, he's given the

1:04:58

same temptation. He's

1:05:00

offered the promises given to him in Psalm 2.

1:05:03

It's promised that right now when he goes with

1:05:05

Satan in the wilderness. And I

1:05:07

think when you're looking at

1:05:10

everything going on in the world right now, when you

1:05:13

look actually at who Christ

1:05:15

is, what he accomplished, the fact that he made a

1:05:17

public spectacle out of all intimate

1:05:20

and elemental spirits, principalities and

1:05:22

powers, and he nailed the certificate of

1:05:25

death to the cross. It allows

1:05:27

us through the power of the Holy Spirit to

1:05:29

look at the forces of darkness in the

1:05:32

same way as King Theoden with

1:05:34

his armies and the writers of Rohan to look

1:05:37

at the forces that are doing evil in the

1:05:39

world and yell death and

1:05:41

chase the

1:05:45

shield. A sword day, a red day,

1:05:48

air the sun rises. I've

1:05:51

got goosebumps right now. That's

1:05:54

good stuff, dude. It all requires

1:05:56

humility and contentment and those are like

1:05:58

two really hard

1:05:59

aspects of human existence, humility

1:06:02

and contentment. They are. They

1:06:04

are very difficult. And they're so... And it's so easy

1:06:07

to think that you're practicing those things. And

1:06:10

like even just recently, I was

1:06:12

talking to one of my pastors and

1:06:14

he's also just a good friend of mine.

1:06:17

And he was like, yeah, you've been really arrogant lately.

1:06:21

And it was great. We reconciled.

1:06:23

I repented because he was right. But

1:06:25

it's funny because I just was completely

1:06:28

blind to it. I was like, no,

1:06:30

I'm not actually. You're incorrect. Pastor

1:06:33

who has to give an account for

1:06:36

my soul. You're wrong. And

1:06:38

you're not thinking about it right. But

1:06:41

he was right. And it's just alarming how

1:06:44

just how blind you can be even

1:06:46

when you've been saved for decades to

1:06:49

your own sin. And how it can creep

1:06:51

in in a little 11, 11, the whole lot. So

1:06:53

I think another answer to your question would be

1:06:55

be in community with people that are solid

1:06:58

believers who aren't afraid and

1:07:00

who even have responsibility given

1:07:02

to them by you to address

1:07:05

your sin when they see it. Basically, what I'm

1:07:08

saying is practice Matthew 18. Go

1:07:10

to your brother when he's caught in a trespass

1:07:13

and seek reconciliation and do it in the spirit of

1:07:15

Galatians 6, 6, 1, and 2, where

1:07:18

you heard spiritual restore such a

1:07:20

one caught in a trespass in the spirit of gentleness, keeping

1:07:22

watch on yourself, lest you to be tempted. This

1:07:25

is all key. So being in a community, being a part

1:07:27

of the community of the saints, enjoying

1:07:29

that rich means of grace is I

1:07:32

think very important in maintaining

1:07:34

a level head in all of this. Amen.

1:07:37

I love that place. Yeah. Because

1:07:39

he goes and he says, don't think more

1:07:41

highly than yourself than you are. He says, you are

1:07:43

nothing. Yeah. Right after

1:07:45

that. I love it. He's like,

1:07:48

oh. I'm like, really? I'm kidding. I

1:07:50

don't know Paul. Yeah. Well,

1:07:52

I mean, we cover like a lot of different things. And

1:07:54

I think we have some really

1:07:57

good balance of ways where you want

1:07:59

to. acknowledge the

1:08:01

reality of the world

1:08:03

around you that's created by Christ and for Christ and I think

1:08:05

I Had an experience.

1:08:08

I think as we're kind of getting wrapping up here in this sort of

1:08:10

introductory overview of the things We're gonna be

1:08:12

talking about in our this is our free crossover

1:08:15

crossover. Is that what it is? Yeah. Yeah an

1:08:17

appetizer an appetizer What

1:08:20

do you call a cutery board? This is our contacting

1:08:22

the other side. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's nice Yeah, 70

1:08:27

to 80 minute appetizer. There we go. Yeah,

1:08:29

I have I have found not

1:08:31

just in the real world actually interacting with

1:08:33

people One of most powerful

1:08:36

apologetics or you want call it a polemic

1:08:38

when it comes to talking with people

1:08:40

who are in the new age Is believing them? Mmm, and

1:08:43

I'll go by to sharing the story is that it

1:08:46

was about a couple of months ago almost a year

1:08:48

ago I managed I just sort of have

1:08:50

a conversation this networking event with someone who

1:08:52

is an active Reiki energy healer and and

1:08:55

Talking with her. I just

1:08:57

felt the spirit inclined me to like say

1:08:59

this ask her this question and I asked

1:09:02

her if she was taking DMT hmm

1:09:04

and or something and something of that nature because

1:09:06

it was just is around last year's Burning Man and She

1:09:10

said yeah, and I merely said so what's

1:09:12

it like? So when those at those little green men

1:09:14

start in those entities are contacting at 3 o'clock

1:09:16

in the morning What do you how do you are you

1:09:18

receptive to that or you do you have reservation? They seem

1:09:20

friendly or hostile and she looked

1:09:22

back at me like How does this

1:09:25

guy know? Yeah, and I said listen I don't

1:09:27

have any powers that ever like I'm a Christian

1:09:29

and The Bible actually like talks about

1:09:31

these things of what you're experiencing And

1:09:33

then I explained to her what the Bible

1:09:36

actually says about the unseen realm of an Ephesians

1:09:38

about the heavenly places And how your

1:09:40

and it allowed me to actually articulate the

1:09:43

gospel in a way that she like understood Wow

1:09:45

and it was Just

1:09:48

seeing being able to believe them

1:09:50

not believe them because they experience that It's

1:09:53

not as if these things that she experienced aren't true

1:09:55

because she experienced them It's true

1:09:58

because she's living in a world she's

1:10:00

operating to tapping

1:10:02

into an unseen world that God talks about that's created

1:10:05

by God but it's also accessed

1:10:07

in a forbidden way and to be

1:10:09

when you understand that it

1:10:11

allows you to be able to communicate to people who

1:10:14

are tapped into that and I think more than ever like

1:10:16

we have to be able to have a balanced

1:10:19

view of the scene in the unseen realm and

1:10:21

understanding how the role of Christ operates

1:10:24

otherwise we're never gonna be able to reach those people

1:10:26

whether they're people who are lost out in

1:10:28

the marketplace of ideas or people who are also

1:10:30

coming into the church or coming to Christ out of

1:10:32

the new age

1:10:33

yeah amen yeah you can't like talk to an LDS

1:10:35

person and be like you don't have a testimony I don't

1:10:38

believe that you actually experienced a burning in the bosom it's

1:10:40

like no I believe you experienced something

1:10:42

but how do you know it's from God right that's the question

1:10:44

how do you know it's actually giving you truth right

1:10:47

something may have happened but doesn't mean they're feeding you

1:10:49

or it is feeding you correct information yeah yeah how

1:10:51

do you know that it's good true and beautiful yeah

1:10:54

right

1:10:54

right and so as we kind of wrap up here we're you

1:10:56

know we're talking about we're really dropping this episode

1:10:59

in this one prior to Halloween

1:11:01

every single October there seems to be the

1:11:03

whole conversation should Christians participate

1:11:06

in Halloween or not and I feel

1:11:08

like we've already kind of addressed that we're not we

1:11:11

don't want to just recurs the things we've already said

1:11:14

there is a reality though of understanding how

1:11:16

did we get here why does Halloween look

1:11:18

the way it does today yeah and

1:11:21

I think that is the result of

1:11:23

the change of worldviews in the same way Halloween

1:11:25

has gotten darker throughout

1:11:27

ever since the 1970s it was not this way in

1:11:30

the 1950s Norman Rockwell era it's

1:11:33

gonna be like that in every every avenue of culture

1:11:35

when there's what television series film

1:11:38

music everything now

1:11:40

is articulating and the dark arts

1:11:42

are being incorporated into

1:11:45

everything into all aspects of life there's

1:11:47

no way to escape it how do you have a balanced worldview

1:11:50

so when we are and when we

1:11:52

rejoin forces with you and Brian we're

1:11:55

gonna be looking at a topic that has

1:11:57

been a lot of people's mind and that

1:11:59

is the role of exorcism. That

1:12:01

is one of those areas. This is something

1:12:04

that has a whole history throughout Christian

1:12:06

history. You also have Catholic

1:12:09

versions of it. You see that are being articulated

1:12:11

in the charismatic world, and

1:12:13

you just see it all throughout. What's the balanced

1:12:15

way to approach it? How do we navigate

1:12:18

that? Well, that's what we're gonna be tackling

1:12:20

in

1:12:22

the second part. Part what

1:12:24

is it? Part 1B. Part 1B. Part 1B. Part

1:12:27

1B. Maybe that's part zero. Yeah,

1:12:29

and that's like zero. Episode zero. Episode

1:12:32

zero, dude. Yeah. I like that. Yeah,

1:12:34

so we'll be doing this by the time this is

1:12:36

being dropped. You've heard like a message

1:12:39

on by Dr. Walter Martin on exorcism. Yeah. And then

1:12:41

we're gonna follow him into it. And so

1:12:43

yeah, I think it's gonna be challenging. We need to

1:12:45

kind of look through and not be afraid to tackle it. What

1:12:48

does scripture saying

1:12:50

about who we are on to a big

1:12:52

part is that who are we ontologically

1:12:55

to what proximity when

1:12:57

it comes to spiritual warfare, given we're part of a kingdom

1:12:59

that is advancing those conquering the kingdom of darkness

1:13:02

to what what is the what are the

1:13:04

actual risks at play? You know when someone prepares

1:13:07

for any sort of war you always wear light

1:13:09

armor if you are going if you want to be rigid

1:13:11

and be able to move quickly. If

1:13:14

you're an offensive physician maybe you wear heavier

1:13:16

armor, right? Right, right, right. The question is who are we

1:13:18

ontologically? What should we be prepared

1:13:20

for? To what extent are we vulnerable? There's

1:13:23

a classic book by John Bunyan,

1:13:26

not Pilgrim's Progress, but he had another book called Holy

1:13:28

War. And he did talk about,

1:13:30

you know, spiritual warfare. We had different gates.

1:13:32

You have eye gate, ear gate, mouth gate. Have

1:13:34

you ever read the Holy War by John Bunyan? No, no, no, no. Dude,

1:13:36

it's tidal alone. Sounds good. Just

1:13:39

tidal alone. It's gnarly. But we're gonna

1:13:41

be looking, so we're gonna be just tackling that. I'm just

1:13:43

gonna open up lots of conversations. I think that

1:13:45

is something that isn't scalable.

1:13:48

We want to be able to take a look at it and

1:13:50

build our parameters, right? Build our parameters.

1:13:52

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's what we've done this first episode

1:13:54

a little bit. So yeah, hopefully. Yeah,

1:13:57

yeah. Well, you

1:13:59

know, to close

1:13:59

out, I would just like to remind people,

1:14:02

and then you guys feel free to say anything at all,

1:14:04

but remember that the

1:14:07

powers of darkness fear the one to

1:14:09

whom you belong. They know that Christ

1:14:11

is Lord and they shudder, and

1:14:13

so you need not fear them. Instead, expose

1:14:16

them and do it for the glory of God,

1:14:18

recognizing all the while that you are held and kept

1:14:21

as precious, as a precious child by

1:14:24

the Almighty Father who created all things.

1:14:26

If he is able to create all things, how much more

1:14:29

is he able to keep safe one of

1:14:31

his beloved children? And he does not

1:14:33

lose any that he calls him to himself, and fear

1:14:35

not little flock for it is his good pleasure to give you the kingdom,

1:14:38

and he doesn't give his children stones when

1:14:40

they ask for bread. So if any

1:14:42

of this fears you, especially going into the Halloween season,

1:14:45

some people are, you know, by their

1:14:47

conscience bound to absolutely

1:14:50

hate any celebration of Halloween. I

1:14:52

disagree with it, but I respect that. If

1:14:55

it fears you, then pray.

1:14:58

Ask the Lord for help. He answers the

1:15:00

prayers of his children. He doesn't hate his children's

1:15:03

prayers. Instead, he encourages us to ask

1:15:05

for things, just like any good father would. So

1:15:07

ask the Lord for help, enjoy his protection,

1:15:10

and ultimately live in the radiant joy that is

1:15:13

the light of Christ.

1:15:15

Amen, that's great. That's a bad way. Well, this has

1:15:17

been fun. This has been a blast. I

1:15:21

like your headquarters here. This is gnarly. Oh, thanks. Yeah,

1:15:23

once we turn the lights on, it gets a lot uglier in here.

1:15:27

Thank you guys for signing off. Go check out Koltish

1:15:30

and... Hey, you guys listen to Hoth to Cosmos. Yeah,

1:15:32

yeah. You'll probably see this same thing on both

1:15:34

feeds. Yeah. Hopefully. That was

1:15:36

good. Awesome. See you guys. All right, see ya.

1:15:50

Thanks for watching.

1:16:24

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