0:03

my name is eddie and

0:05

i

0:07

was in a planet earth

0:10

about to be recycled your

0:12

only chance to survive or

0:15

evacuate is to leave

0:17

with us

0:19

whenever my charismatics creature

0:21

that build a new society but it ended

0:24

the trash just before the nine hundred

0:30

we believe there's no other people lived

0:32

in

0:32

you're

0:34

gonna have

0:43

it is

0:51

and i want you out of it and was christ

0:54

but users

1:02

welcome back late and gentlemen to

1:05

coltish entering the king the costs money

1:07

monsieur my roberts one the coast here i

1:10

am bad we're back with eric

1:12

johnson good have you back thanks for have me

1:14

on guys awesome were here are course entering

1:16

your super secret headquarters and i really

1:18

love in this sad we're all squished

1:21

together it's a little more condensed than the

1:23

sooner that i'm used to been really enjoying the time here

1:25

so we are talking about your book

1:27

which is now available it's an amazon

1:30

christian bookstores dot com just everyone

1:34

really quickly about the book and

1:36

a where yeah what it's all about

1:38

real quickly because they're jumping in introducing christianity

1:40

the mormons a practical and comparative guide

1:42

to what the bible teaches focuses

1:45

on using the bible to

1:47

be able to explain what christianity is

1:49

and help latter day saints to get

1:51

rid of the false stereotypes they might

1:53

have about what christianity is so i'm

1:55

hoping that this will be a book that will be helpful for

1:58

christians as well as possible

2:00

the to give it to a latter day saint that they could

2:02

understand by reading it themselves hey

2:04

what's up or the one have you ever wanted to get

2:06

behind the microphone and sat with

2:08

myself and andor the super sleuth of the show

2:10

here at coldness will guess what you

2:12

get to do exactly that this

2:14

october october twenty seven through the twenty ninth

2:17

reform con october twenty seven to the

2:19

twenty ninth you get it's hands to meet

2:21

andrew an ice bunch of awesome speakers

2:24

is a great lineup including myself and

2:26

and to the super sleuth of the shows a check that out

2:28

and can't wait to meet you all their have every conversation

2:31

now back to the of so okay excellent

2:33

so we're gonna jump into a couple the chapters

2:36

are in the book and we're going to maybe the second

2:38

part of this episode your server know this is part

2:40

two of our conversation

2:42

with their chances def a check out part one of

2:44

the haven't already really enjoyed that before

2:47

, jump in i'd use

2:49

it you as of interactions with dudley doctor

2:51

waltzer martin are just tell us

2:53

about that will quickly well he was

2:55

a hero of mine as he is apparently

2:57

do you guys are doctor martin

3:00

i met him for the first time in

3:02

and the only time actually in nineteen eighty

3:04

seven when eighty did a short term miss and in

3:07

utah here

3:09

the debated a gentleman named ban hell

3:11

and from city at a hotel there and

3:14

the place was packed out i'll

3:16

never forget how he

3:19

calmly but coulibaly eliminated

3:22

the the thought bad

3:24

ideas said dr van hill hand

3:26

and i thought if you can see

3:28

this i think on the internet i think there's tapes

3:30

of it out there that you can watch the whole

3:33

debates but we came away

3:35

thinking he really did a good job

3:37

of explaining that mormonism is

3:39

is a call to if you wanna call it

3:41

that sydney and he had the book kingdom of

3:44

the called so he certainly ah

3:46

use that word ah but what i'll

3:48

probably remember even more is that

3:51

weekend he spoke in a

3:53

former chapel of brigham young

3:55

right across the street from the

3:58

state capital here and solid that he

4:00

and it it was a smaller place but

4:02

it was packed with christians

4:05

at church at that time had rented

4:07

that on sundays that that building in

4:10

he's a former are relative

4:12

brigham young the delivered

4:15

a sermon on jesus and i don't

4:17

think it was taped i just remember at

4:19

the time and i was going to seminary at the

4:21

time i thought that is the best

4:23

sermon i have ever heard on jesus

4:26

because he just taught about jesus

4:28

as who he really was focusing on as deity

4:31

that jesus is enough me

4:33

and i sure wish there was a tape of

4:35

that if there was a i would love to hear

4:37

that because he actually stopped

4:39

at the very beginning of his talk

4:42

and there was a tear in his eyes and

4:44

he said this is an important moment for me

4:46

because i'm a relative of

4:48

walter er of of our brigham young's

4:51

and walter martin than nurse or

4:53

said here i am sen in the same place

4:55

where brigham young deliberate heresy and i

4:57

want to speak to you the truth well

4:59

in that that's incredible hints

5:02

i think there's it's moments like that is always

5:04

cool sees i mean most martin was very

5:07

litter just second own he'd pray he'd frame

5:09

king james english ceo and there was just kind

5:11

of how what you do i remember

5:13

my i was not thousand i've

5:16

been out of business thousands but thousands lotta

5:18

times as the dial like dial the doorstep of the mormons

5:21

i was as was said back and forth conversation

5:23

and the very end when they are talking

5:25

with either current wrapping either up and

5:28

they i forget i guy's name but he sort of

5:30

this between the mormon a decker a decker

5:32

yes and the he sort of doing the confetti

5:35

source just a pray towards thought or

5:37

but then right before

5:40

the are very end when in

5:42

in a conversation where a deckers

5:44

about to accept the lord economy

5:47

isn't the only break the fourth wall and

5:49

it's like they're decker goes back to his old self

5:51

when he first accepted christ and came out of mormonism

5:54

and then martin is still

5:56

like in character like leading him

5:58

to the lord and it's like you

6:01

see walter more like break the fourth

6:03

wall was you can only hear the audio you consider

6:05

lot more like get you will he goes

6:08

for do innocent fun conversation lot humor

6:10

but he gets very the here i'm

6:12

just the emotion behind that when is telling

6:14

him to like the let's ask christ

6:16

to be your savior it's so cool yes

6:19

a little shop and when i think it's also been just important

6:21

because we're talking about all

6:24

the different aspects of people who are leaving the church

6:26

or people who don't really know what they believe any more

6:29

people who are jaded because they come out

6:31

of mormonism make an atheist or agnostic

6:33

people even who are getting sucked into the

6:35

fundamentalist groups we talked with that

6:37

and part one so there's

6:39

a lotta categories in your box

6:42

and severe them when the very first chapters

6:44

the of introduction and then you

6:46

started at the bible god's revelation

6:49

once you start a chapter one or

6:51

with the bible as the foundations well actually

6:53

the first two chapters have to do with the bible

6:55

ever ten chapters sir i wanted

6:57

to make sure that i gave

7:00

a good reason for ah

7:02

the bible as being a standard authority for

7:04

what christians believe because without

7:06

the bible or having that authority i call got

7:08

special revelations without that

7:11

we have nothing but mere opinion and

7:13

unfortunately in mormonism article

7:15

eight that was the thirteen articles

7:17

of faith created by joseph smith found

7:20

in the early great price one of the for

7:22

standard works in the lds church ah

7:24

says that the bible is true only as far as

7:26

is translated correctly i think that's incorrect

7:29

first soft translator correctly i

7:31

would agree with that the new world translation

7:33

is a horrible translation translations

7:36

can be bad but they don't mean

7:38

translated in the sense of one language to

7:40

the other they mean transmission

7:43

of the tax and when it comes

7:45

to the transmission of attacks i

7:47

think we have very good authority

7:50

to be able to say that the bible

7:52

is god's word and it is true

7:54

it's an era as it was originally written

7:57

and we have very good copies

7:59

five thousand three copies of

8:02

twenty four thousand four thousand languages

8:04

are we have full new testaments

8:07

going back to the for centuries

8:09

codex bad a cane as codec sign a it

8:11

a kiss codex alexandra honest

8:13

three complete copies when those three

8:15

are great scholar say

8:18

that is what the original sad but when

8:20

we have so many other this is

8:22

to be able to work from and the old testament

8:24

is the dead sea scrolls knows

8:26

documents that we have from

8:29

from these discoveries help

8:31

us to know that this is a place

8:33

that is a at israel

8:36

is a place where these biblical events took place

8:39

these are real people that were there real

8:42

sites that you can visit today as i

8:44

take people every year to israel to to

8:46

to have to stand off my actual places

8:48

where the bible is is happening

8:51

and then real events

8:54

i mean think about the

8:56

events that took place in this

8:58

around seven hundred b c like

9:00

he was destroyed my

9:03

the assyrians or you can go

9:05

and visit the keys today

9:07

and see the ramp built twenty seven hundred

9:09

years ago it's their

9:12

that the story that's talked about in the bible

9:14

that a snack or of went and destroyed

9:16

it's there's and then king

9:19

king hezekiah built a

9:21

tunnel a water tunnel from the

9:23

get home spring and seventeen hundred

9:25

fifty feet the brought the water

9:27

into the old city because of what's an actor

9:30

was going to do and and so

9:32

we have that today at this

9:34

rediscovered in the nineteenth century so

9:36

i think archaeology along with history

9:39

very valuable and helping us to know that the bible

9:41

is something that's trustworthy and cambio

9:44

lived yeah so into in terms as like some

9:46

apologetics and speaking with your l

9:48

l e s neighbor a winning even

9:50

use terms like in so far as is translated

9:53

correctly or to missing many pointing precious parts

9:55

how do they shoot themselves essentially in the foot

9:57

when they try to quote from the bible that

10:00

the great question because

10:02

if you're going to use james one five

10:04

as the versa just dismiss supposedly

10:06

read that he could

10:08

pray for up

10:10

for wisdom and mean it's not

10:12

even wisdom any god he's looking for knowledge

10:15

is the church true with or is a but

10:17

is it is which avert a

10:19

denominations is the true denomination

10:22

ah what about first corinthians fifteen twenty

10:24

nine that's the one burst that every

10:26

latter day saint likes to utilize to support

10:28

the idea of the baptism for the dead is true

10:31

but if you take away

10:33

the veracity of the bible

10:35

and say well i can't really trusted

10:37

them right how can you cite

10:39

these other passages that are

10:42

not trustworthy either a you can have it

10:44

both ways and else

10:46

can we ask you this to because you're going

10:48

through all these evidence these aspects

10:51

of evidence what evidence think is awesome the

10:54

through the lens though and you're talking with someone who's

10:56

more minorities reader just so everyone knows

10:58

would the anyone who the amazon

11:00

has a latter day saints their friend or neighbor

11:02

they have a thirteen articles of faith from

11:05

, very young age or tottenham rise these

11:07

are my classmates were in their seminary

11:09

class across the street but those eyes wide senate

11:11

they're going through the thirteen articles

11:13

of faith though that the eighth or across

11:16

a thief or their beliefs as we believe

11:18

the bible to be the word of god as

11:20

saw as far as it is translated correctly

11:22

we also believe the book of mormon to be the word

11:24

of god so

11:27

when you're presenting his evidence is the

11:29

mormons perspective there's still

11:31

viewing the evidence that you're betraying

11:34

through the lens of that free

11:36

commitment to the idea the bible

11:39

only being translated correctly

11:42

how do you how do you can get past

11:44

them because them when the evidence or kind

11:46

of playing judge with the others you're presenting them

11:49

or gives examples of what conversations

11:51

actually look like when you bring up the authority

11:53

of the by reliability of the bible as i

11:56

said on the first part of the so

11:58

i at the last so i

12:00

don't believe that many latter

12:02

day saints really understand article

12:05

eight and so i like an ass and can you please

12:07

explain to me when you said

12:09

that the bible is true as far as is translated

12:11

correctly what do you mean by this they

12:14

start to tommy well you know corrupt

12:16

priests they came in and they added is subtracted

12:18

things and we can't really know what was

12:20

sad and so the plane impresses

12:22

parts you mentioned ah that

12:24

you know that we can't really depend on

12:27

the bible nice they will can i help

12:29

you understand that that's

12:31

not translation you're talking

12:33

about transmissions how do you think

12:36

the bible was transmitted how

12:38

did it get to us to over

12:40

and over again as i

12:42

might ask questions and i'll see you

12:44

even know what languages the bible were

12:46

written them latin the oftentimes

12:49

the answer well known as coin a greek

12:51

in the new testaments and the old testament

12:54

it was hebrew and some air

12:56

med the how did they get

12:58

transmitted to us wealth or one

13:00

guy actually wrote something down

13:03

and then the next guy he writes

13:05

the same thing down and then you know

13:07

a and is so like the telephone

13:09

game and i actually talk about the telephone

13:11

game i think it's in chapter two yeah that

13:14

they say well you know it it obviously

13:16

gets distorted as from one person

13:18

the next and ammo think it's a it's

13:20

an oral type of thing that's

13:22

going on here know it's written down these

13:24

are the certainly there is copy

13:26

mess going down but it's written down so

13:29

that we can go back and see the previous one

13:31

and sometimes there are some blitzes there's

13:33

no doubt about it what are we do we

13:35

go to the earliest most accurate

13:38

manuscripts we have different passages the

13:40

scholars have put those together you can

13:42

actually purchase a copy

13:44

of the great new testament and it has ratings

13:47

of the different possibilities the various

13:49

but if you listen to a guy like bart ehrman

13:51

misquoting jesus and by the way latter

13:53

day saints like to quote or erm

13:55

and all the time knowing that doesn't make any

13:57

sense he's an atheist he doesn't like the by why

14:00

are you quoting ah y u fourteen

14:02

a guy that will use the telephone game and

14:04

other things like that to try to disparage

14:08

the word of god if this if the

14:10

bible is worthy to be studied

14:12

or and i believe it is second timothy three

14:15

sixteen that says it all scripture

14:17

is inspired which scriptures referring

14:19

to is obviously referring to the old testament

14:21

but if you keep reading and diverse i think

14:23

it's eighteenth it talks about taught

14:25

it talks about the scripture referring to jesus

14:28

was i out it's obvious to

14:30

me that the the new testament apostles

14:32

knew they were writing scripture second peter

14:35

three sixteen peter said that paul's

14:37

writings were very hard to understand but they

14:39

were scripture though these guys

14:41

understood that they were riding scripture than

14:43

this is what god's word was do we

14:46

have the autographs we don't latter

14:48

day saints do you have any autographs

14:51

of let's say the book of

14:53

mormon any of the books there are no the plates

14:55

were all taken so we don't have the autographs there's

14:57

does that affect your understanding

15:00

of the accuracy of the book of mormon

15:02

and they'll say whether m me they don't have

15:05

that says be honest they do not have ah

15:08

an article wait for the book of mormon the book of

15:10

mormon is true as far as is translated correctly

15:12

they are too because there have been

15:14

several thousand changes since

15:16

it was first printed and eighteen thirty near

15:19

as and are so i'm going to

15:21

i'm gonna be trying my best to ask questions

15:23

as see what they know about the process and

15:26

then i have citations and i included one

15:28

in the book here of lds

15:30

riders ah of academics

15:33

who say the the bible is ninety

15:35

nine and forty four one hundred pure we

15:38

have said that yeah in conferences

15:40

as i know okay so what

15:42

would this guy seems to be pretty knowledgeable

15:44

and so are you know

15:47

and then they like that also point out contradictions

15:49

my whenever they bring that out

15:51

what do you do you ask the question which

15:54

contradicts is are you referring to they're

15:56

know oftentimes give you one and i

15:59

always liked ethical posted well

16:01

is that the best you have if i'm able to answer

16:03

that then what you believe the

16:05

bible is accurate and true all now

16:08

i will answer them to the jesus

16:10

said he had he did the same got

16:12

everything and he says neither will i answer you

16:14

because pearls before swine and i'm

16:17

not saying latter day saints or swine i love

16:19

latter day saints otherwise i wouldn't move the utah

16:21

yeah ah it as at the same time

16:24

i think it's unfair that they want to

16:26

disparage the bible in

16:28

as you pointed out earlier andrew they're

16:30

using the bible whenever it suits their purposes

16:32

their don't like a lot of the things that

16:34

it says that contradict what they believe

16:36

right believe mean we have the autographs the autographs the book

16:39

of breathing superior that suppose we joseph smith

16:41

said translated into my head book of abraham

16:43

any of my hundred and ten percent incorrect

16:45

with everything a little friendly some that he mains amp

16:47

the tournaments to that in the gospel topics

16:49

essay that was printed i think it was

16:51

two thousand and sixteen that found on their church

16:54

website that it's

16:56

a spiritual translation well you

16:58

can do anything and the book moses same

17:01

thing same thing they don't even have a manuscript

17:03

to go with the book amount of that just came out of

17:05

his mind well if you think

17:07

that a man has such power to translate

17:09

something that says something completely

17:11

different com and signal for fiery

17:14

and you're able to create doctrine

17:16

out of it because mormons do get doctor

17:18

it's as a book of abraham and the and

17:20

the book of moses as well they're doing

17:23

a com follow me ah it's

17:25

it's it's am as a study that

17:27

the mormons do weekly and so this

17:29

year they're studying the old testament they

17:32

took the first five weeks

17:34

of this and study the first eleven chapters

17:37

of genesis and we were talking only a one year

17:39

program five weeks

17:41

eleven chapters of genesis and

17:43

then they also included ten chapters

17:45

from abraham and moses as part

17:47

of a study on the old testament

17:50

oh it has no manuscript evidence

17:52

talk about having nothing to support yourself

17:55

with i have a problem with that

17:57

because there's including the idea

17:59

and then the guy was they they they make got

18:01

into pleural will where does the idea

18:03

that there are true god multiple guards

18:06

is not found in the bible is found

18:08

in among the pearl a great price

18:10

wow and in a bothers me to in a sea

18:12

of the spiritual translation i mean if you look at eighteen

18:14

forty three times and seasons where the book of abraham

18:16

was first published in very big old black

18:19

letters all caps it's as a translation

18:22

by joseph smith rylance a spiritual translation

18:25

is as a trans lazy and

18:27

there's even copies of i

18:29

want his writings of how he i

18:31

supposedly meet two characters and

18:33

and brought him into sentences or

18:35

whole paragraphs i mean to me that it is like a spiritual

18:38

translation seemed like he really tried is just trying

18:40

to save face but one thing i hear on the street

18:42

all the time if you can talk about this is the concept of

18:44

the trinity right the here all the time they

18:46

go well such as of it's it's it's a

18:48

job confusing

18:51

a hard topic for some of them director

18:53

has around since they have god reinterpreted

18:55

to them through a manly

18:57

ways that they can grasp but when they hear something

19:00

about the trinity and they're beautiful infinite

19:02

of god stay think it's just too

19:04

complicated to be true n

19:07

n this is the thing about god he

19:09

is transcendent v is

19:11

above our thoughts

19:14

are the bible says that my ways

19:16

are not your ways and i think what the

19:18

latter day saint wants to do is take god and

19:20

put him into a box and

19:23

be able to say here is

19:25

our god here is our views

19:27

salvation where did we come from why

19:30

are we here where are we going we have

19:32

the answer to this but i think if you ask

19:35

a latter day saint if he

19:37

has all the answers he will admit

19:39

he doesn't by asking the questions

19:41

do you believe the couple of by lorenzo

19:43

snow as man is

19:46

god once was as the first half the

19:48

second half is as god is may or may be

19:50

you believe that first half they go yes

19:53

i said okay so let me get this straight

19:55

do believe that god was once

19:57

a human been on another

19:59

realm the world if you will we

20:01

have my do okay so can you explain

20:04

to me in a was he a center

20:07

oh wi fi fost latter day saints

20:09

will say yeah he had to have been a sinner i guess

20:11

even thought about it but i guess he must

20:13

have been whoa that is

20:15

huge because so god was

20:17

once a center he had to die they say

20:20

will ya the bible says the wages of sin is deaths

20:22

roman six twenty three so that's

20:25

quite incredible can you tell me a little bit about

20:27

the god he worshipped what

20:29

about that god and what was his god that he

20:31

worshipped and that can you help me to

20:33

understand where the first god came from

20:36

and you know they'll say well that

20:38

goes way beyond my pay grade i

20:41

don't know that's kind of a mystery oh

20:43

okay so when it comes the

20:45

mystery you have a mystery you

20:48

don't have all the answers your god

20:50

that supposedly was all in a box

20:52

there's a lot of mr we don't know who who

20:54

he is and the in also

20:57

i think when you bring that out to ladder

20:59

to say and help him to understand that

21:02

if he has a mystery i think we're allowed

21:04

to have mystery and i think it's appropriate

21:06

because the minute you think

21:08

you have got all figured out the becomes

21:11

omniscient right you become

21:13

the norm this it was my god is

21:15

the one who is been figure

21:17

it out and so i don't think we can fully

21:20

grasp amps we can get his we

21:22

can understand the major characteristics of

21:24

who he is but will never fully

21:26

understand his mind or his nature

21:29

these are mysteries that will be i

21:31

think unveiled to us in in

21:33

heaven know what do you think about the

21:36

claims of the

21:39

bible been put together by constancy

21:41

constantine or assembled at the council of my

21:43

cs is do you see those claims

21:45

still being made by folks were lds

21:47

i remember hearing that alive not

21:50

not lately been college use a

21:52

big big thing maybe is around me because as

21:54

that de vinci code but that

21:56

was a big thing and the what about to i

21:59

think you still see that

22:01

, idea when the

22:03

trinity gets brought out you know that

22:05

there is it that often times will say oh

22:07

that was from pay again

22:10

back around the again back

22:12

and romans and all the rest and

22:15

and so i say can you pinpoint that for

22:17

me and usually they like to say

22:19

well there was there was like this council

22:22

they don't know when it was it was

22:24

three twenty five and eighty three twenty

22:26

fives council nice ear ah

22:29

in so than also and i'll say well

22:31

the council nice yeah yeah yeah that's the one

22:33

okay so what happened at the council

22:35

nice yeah let them explained to you what

22:37

they know then i'll usually explain

22:39

to you that they don't know what the council my see

22:41

was about because either they'll say or that's

22:43

where they put together all the books of the bible

22:46

they'll talk about how the trinity was

22:48

created and that's where

22:50

so much heresy came in you know

22:52

because soon after the death of the apostles the great

22:55

a pos seats there is no more authority

22:57

on this earth so that's

22:59

what they'll say i'll say no that's not

23:01

what was that that they had nothing to do with

23:04

the books of the bible that gets taken care

23:06

of as far as the old testament we accept

23:08

what the jews did at the council jameel

23:10

between ninety and one twenty a week

23:12

sept that what we have is thirty nine books

23:14

they actually have is twenty two but the same books

23:17

or there's so we've never really debated

23:19

the old testament as far as

23:21

the new testament we've

23:23

had are going into the third century all

23:25

the way through the for century and it was finalized

23:28

at three ninety seven at the council of carthage

23:30

but the council nice he had nothing to do with

23:32

that it had nothing to do with

23:34

creating the trinity rather they were

23:36

dealing with the issue a is jesus

23:38

a created beans or is he got

23:40

enough last that was what three hundred twenty five

23:43

bishops are dead at that

23:45

council is a very important council because

23:47

it eliminated what's called area aneurysm

23:49

guy named areas was the heretic and

23:52

to have as witnesses today are followers

23:54

of area if you well they're true areas

23:57

in the belief that jesus is not god

24:00

no the bible teaches he is both

24:02

god and man and

24:05

a we called the hyper static union one

24:07

hundred percent god one hundred percent mans

24:09

latter day saints don't believe that these

24:11

is fully god and the same sunset

24:13

heavenly father is so we're a

24:15

problem with our view on bugattis

24:18

that's so good and what can you clarify to

24:20

i a lot of fundamental misunderstanding

24:22

says well as with scripture in general people

24:24

think that there's men who authorized

24:27

what is in scripture or what is the can

24:29

in general but there's simply more of a record and is a

24:31

sense of what was already there can you explain

24:33

that will that more to out this the i mean there's a

24:35

guy named anthony says he was involved in the counts

24:37

of nice ear and he came up

24:39

with a list in the three fifty's of

24:42

that twenty seven new testament books

24:44

and these are the same twenty seven

24:46

books that have been talked about

24:48

earlier in the third century there

24:50

were there was some debate i mean there were

24:52

there was debate about some

24:55

of the past or up pistols or

24:57

we i think peter the second

24:59

peter i think it

25:01

was discuss a second and third john

25:04

james in all of that there were some

25:06

issues with that but over offs they

25:08

came together and they to said this

25:11

is the list that's authoritative

25:13

and like i said it was finalized and carthage

25:15

had three ninety servants ah i'm

25:17

a council were pussy other council

25:19

i forget the name of it but they they did

25:22

have discusses to try to figure this

25:24

out and listen

25:26

i mean what other books should be

25:29

in the new testament can and i may

25:31

i ask the latter day saint was in all said

25:33

some of the gnostic gospels there are some who

25:35

would advocate for that but that doesn't really

25:38

cool correspond with mormon teachings

25:40

ah i what books should have been left

25:42

out i mean the book that they might have

25:44

left out was of the book of james

25:46

s one of their favorite books to go to himself

25:48

in i don't think they want to get rid of the path of

25:50

james and are so i

25:52

in all scholars have looked at this even

25:55

in the twenty first century and they would

25:57

agree those twenty seven bucks

25:59

were meant to be yeah

26:01

so i i appreciate that this is

26:03

really really good if anyone wants to get a full bucks

26:06

you can look at the chapters at that specific

26:08

chapter new book as very very good and organ

26:10

were taught much a book introducing chris

26:12

see any to mormons what is now available

26:15

for sale or of or amazon a

26:17

christian is it worse in books

26:19

dot com christian books dot com and

26:21

you could definitely check that out i

26:24

so chapter three is called the existence

26:26

of god then i want me just

26:28

happened to my media gut reaction

26:31

when i just saw that hello mormons

26:34

they believe in god they believed in the

26:36

existence of god they don't have

26:38

a different concept concept and christians

26:40

they blew the god is an exalted man who

26:43

has a body of flesh and bone why

26:45

was he is hard to mormons about the existence

26:48

of god and i did a chapter i knew that

26:50

people would say that so in the beginning i

26:52

actually talk about why this chapter

26:54

in a book that supposed to be introducing christian

26:56

and mormons and the reason why is

26:59

jana resist work the

27:01

next mormons from two thousand and nineteen

27:03

said that forty five percent

27:05

of people who leave the church go to atheism

27:08

agnosticism or nothing at all much

27:10

more than they were go to the christian church and

27:12

i talked to a lot of these folks i

27:14

talked to hundreds of people who

27:16

have left to have become atheists

27:18

and and so i think if

27:20

we're talking the people who are interested

27:23

who are willing to hear what we have say about

27:25

christianity is proud because

27:27

maybe there the outing as a mormon

27:30

and they're not a true blue is not gonna read this

27:32

we com true blue mormons tb ems

27:34

that they're not going to want this books they're not

27:36

gonna wanna talk about this issue with the as i

27:38

literature yeah anti mormon i don't like

27:40

that because a mormon

27:42

is us is a name for a person

27:44

who's a believer in mormonism i'm

27:46

not against the mormon i'm against the ism so

27:49

call me anti mormonism fatma but

27:52

, but we have we have this problem

27:54

of trying to understand

27:59

why the way they say is

28:02

is he struggled so

28:05

struggled so not going for the true

28:07

blue more men who would not read this book

28:09

i am wanting to

28:11

a to reach the person

28:14

who is either thinking about leaving

28:16

or who has laps and realizing

28:18

very likely they're going

28:20

to the my god they're

28:23

going to have that moments i i

28:25

ask the latter day saint who has left

28:27

ah okay so help me understand

28:30

you don't believe in god anymore and they

28:32

may say for no i don't i said

28:34

well why they said wealth this

28:36

religion burned me out here's

28:38

the problem religion is about man

28:41

mans attempt to reach god i said yes

28:44

you were burned and i apologize for

28:46

that that it shouldn't have happened and

28:48

yet for how many years you were in this church you

28:50

were told that this was true and now he realizes

28:52

not troops but then he wants believe

28:54

in god the new ones

28:56

believes his was your savior and

28:59

you know they say oh yeah i did so

29:02

what happened again it's the

29:04

religion i said but you know what god

29:07

and jesus did not do that to you

29:09

it was men who did that to

29:12

and if you end up not believe in god

29:14

at all i think they have

29:16

the last laugh because in

29:18

essence many mormons i think act

29:20

as if they are atheists ah

29:22

a and and so i think it's a religion that

29:25

breeds atheism if

29:27

you are somebody who's gonna throw the baby

29:29

out with the bathwater i think you're making a tragic

29:32

mistake and the idea that many latter

29:34

day saints encourage each other by say of the

29:36

church isn't true the nothing else as i

29:38

see that's alive from satan where'd

29:40

you get that from are we to say

29:42

to each other all the time as in the

29:44

latter day saints i said what think about

29:47

it if the churches and true the nothing else is

29:49

that's going back to the great a posse do you hold

29:51

of the great a posse been true i

29:53

don't know what do you hold the joseph smith of the

29:55

true prophet because he was the one who taught that's

29:57

when i don't like joseph smith i said well he's

29:59

one at our that there was a great a posse well

30:02

i just haven't really thought it through that weights

30:04

well if the church

30:06

possibly was lines you i think they were

30:08

lying to that the church if the churches

30:11

and true the nothing else is now

30:13

i'm maybe you need to consider the possibility

30:16

that something else is true it could

30:18

be atheism it could be buddhism

30:20

a could be a biblical christianity

30:23

and until you do the investigation either

30:25

the investigation when i was a junior in high

30:27

school and i found out that jim jones

30:30

had a thousand people drink poison kool

30:32

aid i said to myself how do i know

30:34

that i'm not part of a

30:36

of an air so i went out reading

30:39

other scriptures talking to his many people as

30:41

i could and that's where i gathered

30:43

my love for people

30:45

who believe in other religions i find it all fascinating

30:48

as i'm sure you guys do was wealth people

30:50

believe some really interesting things

30:52

i want to get into their minds and their

30:54

heads i want to find out why do you believe that

30:57

and then i want to take to take

30:59

at what best corresponds reality

31:02

as good xoxo why is it been so important

31:04

to understand the existence of it's not just

31:06

got in general but the god of the bible why

31:09

is that him for well if the bible

31:11

is true then we would

31:13

have to say that it is teaching

31:15

the truth about who got is quite

31:17

simple that's why the first two chapters satanic

31:20

bible because if the

31:22

bible not true then i guess it's

31:24

everybody for himself and we try

31:26

to look at the arm empirical

31:29

evidence to see okay what

31:31

is truth this is the question

31:33

that pilot s a jesus

31:35

at his trial what is truth kaberle

31:37

tasks and i think that's the

31:40

best question anybody

31:42

today and ask is the bible

31:44

true i think it is if the bible

31:46

is true and it teaches in a god

31:48

whose one god dude or

31:50

on him he sucks for hero israel the

31:52

lord thy god the lord is a fraud is

31:55

one oz the idea

31:57

that god is it a

31:59

doesn't know the have any other god i

32:01

say a forty three ten isaiah forty

32:03

four six and eight says that god

32:05

knows of no other gods as pretty clear

32:07

he read forty three their forty six

32:10

the as that the of

32:12

the idea of a monotheistic as very

32:14

very much make sense that god doesn't change

32:17

malik i three sex their to

32:19

god is from everlasting the everlasting

32:21

some ninety verse to send in fact if

32:23

you go to the book of mormon which is supposed

32:26

to be the most correct book on earth and

32:28

a man supposedly can get closer to god by

32:30

biting by it's precepts and by any other books

32:33

though most i have three five

32:35

am around i ate a team both say

32:37

that god has always been god

32:40

when was there ever a time for him to have been

32:42

a man says that he could have

32:44

a and and the idea that he

32:46

changed in his been from a center

32:48

to somehow a holy god and that i

32:50

have the potential to become gods

32:52

makes no sense of internal it's a long

32:55

answer to your question but yet to

32:57

go around the corner and say what

33:00

else do i have if i don't have the bible to tell

33:02

me what is true is it god special revelation

33:04

that or it's not if it is then we

33:06

need a trusted if it's nice and

33:09

help me to understand how my supposed to determine

33:11

truth yeah know that that that

33:13

is so good i appreciate that so much eric

33:16

an hour i think honestly like were the most that

33:18

will tactics you can really do in

33:21

a goes toy along with their them that you've written

33:23

in your book again the book is called introducing for sandy

33:25

to mormons is available for sale now we have links

33:27

nor description is really believing

33:31

what god says about the unbelievers and

33:34

when we're what the abbas opposes room chapter

33:37

one is that every single person

33:39

they know that god exists but

33:42

they suppress they truth and truth and and

33:44

i always say to x cultist not

33:46

just mormons by you've had

33:49

say a traumatic experience whether

33:51

it's just having that doubt really

33:53

you having your whole world fall apart but a lot

33:55

of it lot of times comes with trauma a

33:57

severance from people that are close

34:00

the numbers

34:01

you

34:02

actually i see this i just thought of

34:05

something you mentioned earlier in the book

34:07

you're saying that when you need

34:09

to realize when talking to people who are lds

34:12

that you need

34:14

rose they're there what if they

34:16

come to believe this is going

34:19

to com that a car so there's weight and grab

34:21

a tossup pines conversation real quickly

34:23

talk about that if a person leaves

34:25

their church they could be risking

34:28

their marriage they can be risking their

34:30

children they can be risking

34:32

their stand in society they

34:35

are making a very big

34:37

decision so this is a hard thing for

34:39

people who leave and some would say maybe

34:41

they added to stay in the church and many do

34:44

there are many atheists and many

34:46

non believers who go to the church

34:48

who do that to keep peace in the family

34:51

it is a i think we as christians

34:53

need to be appreciate that because i

34:55

never wasn't latter day saint you guys

34:57

weren't either and so we don't quite

34:59

get that but to understand

35:02

the ramifications of leaving

35:05

when ramifications present to them the gospel the

35:07

and they accepted they

35:09

are wow what are they gonna

35:11

do now now that they have this information

35:14

and i don't suggest they do stay in the church

35:16

because they're not going to get said they're they're not going

35:19

to have the ability to have

35:21

oversight with in a church situation

35:23

that i think the bible wants us to helps ah

35:25

somebody who believed in the

35:27

diana ah didn't keep

35:29

going of the temple diana they you know they

35:31

stop they they would join in on

35:33

with the christians or what you know

35:36

if it was in the old testament would be

35:38

the jews and and then later became the christians

35:41

i think we have i think

35:43

we need to present the truth and if if a

35:45

person wants to leave mormonism the

35:49

then we're going to have our work cut

35:51

out for us to help them

35:53

to be able to transition out but

35:55

i'm gonna say if you're a latter day saint

35:58

and you're somebody who's scared about

35:59

the

36:00

it's the best thing you can ever do and

36:03

to have a relationship with jesus compared

36:05

to what you had as latter day saints not

36:07

knowing if you have eternal life if

36:09

you were to die right now most latter day saints

36:11

say i don't know if i would end up in the celestial

36:14

kingdom but in the bible it teaches

36:16

us first job by thirteen that we may know

36:18

we have eternal life there's

36:21

, promise and so if you

36:23

want i will help you as

36:25

a christian we need to be willing to do that you guys have

36:27

disciple people you know we we have taken

36:29

people n n and hold

36:32

their hands and once

36:34

they understand what it's all

36:36

about they they have a desire i i

36:38

have friends that i helped desires and

36:40

i know that if i were to ask them now would you

36:42

like to go back to mormonism they would say

36:44

don't even that way because

36:47

that way did not have any

36:49

hope in that church now i

36:51

have a relationship with jesus and jesus

36:54

does enough this episode

36:56

is broads you buy apology is studios

36:59

causes would not be possible for wasn't

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an all access member and that will

37:18

again will support the studio which will allow

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cultures to be a possibility for you to enjoy

37:23

on a weekly basis now

37:25

back to the episode yeah i

37:27

mean it's such a stark contrast when

37:29

you look at people who are in that category

37:32

that jesus is everything to them versus

37:35

the mormon stories podcast yeah

37:37

and i guess this is not to take shot

37:39

at it take shots are disney

37:42

one there's just the reality that that

37:44

when you leave then you

37:46

don't really have any anything to replace it with

37:49

your identity is based on the fact

37:51

that you are an ex mormon and the you have this identity

37:53

that now you're still struggle to replace

37:55

it with and there's a lot had seen in this

37:57

a lot of bitterness and it's just

37:59

so that you have to per year olds

38:02

who replace the counterfeit

38:04

within original so to paraphrase whereas

38:06

go mentioned earlier the existence

38:08

of a counterfeit predicates the authenticity

38:11

of an original am because

38:14

his put eternity in the hearts of men when

38:17

people has experienced the counterfeit

38:20

they become jaded the we know them

38:22

were talking to someone his either say an axe

38:24

mormon in that category we

38:26

know that they believe that god exists

38:29

and they're still you know there's still some still suppressing

38:31

the truth they have a longing they have

38:33

long that only can be fulfilled

38:36

in the try and god and we know

38:38

that's what god says about the unbelievers

38:40

so i know that whenever i talk to sort

38:42

his xl the yes i know oh

38:45

god has about that i'm not going to derive

38:47

from that the gemini com west arsenal

38:49

before you jump onto maybe the next section

38:52

where you are you know go ahead right i got some

38:54

thoughts on that i personally i think it's

38:56

amazing how ,

38:58

describes himself in scripture like and

39:00

john we see him calling him a many

39:02

of the i am statements from

39:05

isaiah actually with the any who

39:07

words from the sept two a giants i

39:10

and what's beautiful about that is isaiah forty

39:12

three ten it says literally been he

39:14

says so that you may know

39:16

understand and believes that i

39:19

am he writes in jesus

39:21

then quotes from isaiah forty three

39:23

and john getting prophecies

39:25

you the disciples but what's amazing

39:28

is that god wants us to know understand

39:30

and believe who years in if you're speaking

39:32

to someone who's lds new present them with a jesus

39:35

christ of scripture and the beauty

39:37

of what he did in his death burial resurrection

39:40

for their sins paying the penalty

39:43

of their sins on across jesus

39:45

becomes more beautiful than anything in

39:47

their lives but he men only way to have

39:49

that happen is when you're actually preaching through

39:51

the jesus christ of scripture the

39:54

existence of the god of the bible who

39:56

is jesus who is the father who's the holy

39:58

spirit is what shows

39:59

the beauty in the relationship of what it means

40:02

to be human in general so you're willing

40:04

to give up everything that you have to

40:06

truly understand what it means to exist as

40:08

god's creation right

40:10

i agree completely a man what

40:12

well said yeah so just real

40:14

quickly we've had plenty of conversations

40:16

to lot more noise talked about when

40:19

when it really comes down to what it's really all

40:21

about and i remember this from dialogue or the

40:23

doorstep with a mormon or between a deck

40:26

and malta martin he goes well if it with as well

40:28

whenever it asked whenever i go to the discussion

40:30

christianity religion christianity one thing

40:32

always wanna know is what do you think of route would

40:34

you think of christ because that's really

40:36

odd were really where is that flew son

40:39

flew he and for me i really want to

40:41

know what you think about jesus christ unleash

40:44

christ boss christ so many times like ourselves have

40:46

the way which way said it's yes we

40:48

were talking to someone is lds

40:51

you bring up

40:53

who'd years is is is a fundamental

40:55

importance because there's so many of and rabbits rails

40:58

you can go down you can dogma temples you

41:00

can talk much undergarments you can talk about the

41:03

mountain meadows massacre you can go even though know

41:05

all different areas but what

41:08

do you think is important to

41:10

talk about jesus and when it comes

41:12

to all the us and what what do you think you was

41:15

important to you enough in regards to that

41:17

the want to bring up in this book

41:19

the bible says and same corinthian

41:22

sullivan for is possible to have

41:24

a false jesus the idea

41:26

that just because you hold jesus in your church

41:28

his name as the missionaries like to point to their badges

41:30

doesn't mean anything if the version of

41:32

jesus that you're advocating is

41:35

not true and

41:37

i mean jehovah's witnesses believe that jesus

41:39

is michael the archangel muslims believe

41:41

that's ah jeez is one of the great profits

41:44

peace be upon him they'll say ah

41:46

the my hari krishna friends will say

41:48

that jesus is that great guru

41:51

but these are all false versions

41:53

of who jesus is in the bible says escalations

41:56

one a nine that if anybody preaches the gospel

41:58

other the one i preach to you be a curse

42:00

so we we see very clearly

42:03

that it's possible to have

42:05

jesus in your religion but if it's not the right

42:07

version of jesus jesus in

42:09

christianity is in the

42:11

beginning was the word the

42:13

word was with god the word was

42:16

god john chapter one verse one who is

42:18

the word who was god's

42:20

first fourteen the word became

42:22

flesh and wealth among us we

42:25

believe that jesus fully got

42:27

and he's fully man we believe

42:29

that that's called the hyper static unions

42:31

are one hundred percent of each jesus

42:34

been and very nature did not consider

42:36

equality with god's something to be grasped

42:38

buddy humbled himself and became obedient

42:41

on to death even death on across philippines

42:43

chapter two we can go through the

42:45

bible and we can get a really good picture

42:47

of who jesus or who is jesus according

42:49

to mormonism according to mormonism

42:52

is a created been of

42:54

heavenly father and heavily mother first

42:57

born the we're is that the

42:59

term that is in the bible so they'll

43:01

use that term first born they mean that literally

43:03

yeah lucifer followed ah there was

43:05

a great council and haven't and lucifer and jesus

43:08

disagreed on their plans ah

43:10

and then all of us really are brothers and sisters

43:12

of jesus imagine that we all came

43:14

from the same stock heavenly father was

43:16

are parent as well that

43:18

jesus somehow came into

43:21

the of , he perfected

43:23

himself without having to go through mortality i

43:26

was like to ask that question how come he

43:28

didn't have to go through mortality and i do yeah

43:30

what did he do that was so special because

43:32

yet i mean so he is perfect in the preexists

43:34

as a so therefore he gets a free pass and

43:37

and and then when did he

43:39

accomplice accomplice

43:41

some would say when he was

43:44

on the cross and that's where he have a

43:46

seat he got his perfection their know of

43:48

jesus was perfect from the very beginning

43:50

according the bible sucks when it comes to

43:52

jesus it like to ask the

43:54

latter day saints tell me more about

43:56

your jesus and they'll they'll tell me about

43:59

how he's their savior what's he your savior

44:01

of what what was that means savior

44:04

i always ask that question what do you mean but

44:06

and and they'll say well you know through the it's

44:08

home in through the grace and as

44:10

it will yes understand the language has been

44:13

talked about in mormonism is difference

44:15

is that the terms are the same but the minis

44:18

are difference what is the mormon

44:20

mean when he says i believe i'm say by grace

44:22

that the atonement says me that is

44:24

called immortality thus general salvation

44:26

everybody gets that's because

44:29

supposedly we were all spirits and a pre

44:31

existence previous life and

44:33

we don't remember it but we chose jesus plan

44:35

over lose the first so they'll

44:37

say what we believe in salvation by grace and

44:40

of and that's what they mean but

44:42

that's not the same as what christianity

44:45

what christianity the bible says any pieces

44:47

to eight nine were say by grace you pay

44:49

this is not of ourselves it is the gift

44:51

of god not by works list

44:53

any man said boasts so it's

44:55

it's this idea that they're

44:57

to we are able to receive salvation

45:00

based on our on grace

45:02

and mormonism it's not just

45:05

grace it's your individual works

45:07

he you're supposed to keep the commandments

45:09

of guy continually and unless you do

45:11

where i am you can i go as were

45:13

god supposedly said and doctrine and covenants

45:16

section twenty five years fifteen this

45:18

is what they call exaltation

45:20

this is what they believe celestial

45:22

kingdom more eternal life

45:25

the bible teaches that we

45:27

may know we have eternal life first on five

45:30

thirteenth eternal life that's

45:32

the same term that's used for exaltation

45:34

latter day saints don't know would have that practically

45:38

speaking i've notice when you

45:40

bring up something that the

45:42

cup or when i first started two decades

45:44

ago and i'm in high school talking

45:47

about how he isn't satan are brothers their

45:49

an open book about a have no problem with

45:51

and then you could have a conversation and

45:53

collages one fifty fifteen through seven

45:55

see how to his price great all things including including

45:58

satan is seems

46:00

that that has

46:03

had a minimum continues to have more

46:05

or less of a and effect the fact

46:07

that becomes a lot more minimal just because your postmarked

46:10

meters their postmodern they don't understand

46:12

their own doctrine or they just art indifferent

46:15

or don't care how do you

46:17

will what do you what are you seeing come

46:19

up now when it comes to jesus even those

46:21

arguments or how do you effectively

46:24

communicate this two or more meant for the they

46:26

can understand there's a terminology difference

46:28

what does that look like a new perspective yeah

46:30

i think for a lot of latter

46:32

day saints in this post modern idea especially

46:35

the younger so latter day saints are

46:37

no longer a people of the book and

46:40

by that they have for scriptures they have the bible

46:42

the book of mormon doctrine and covenants and pro

46:44

the great price and yes they study that

46:46

and seminary in high school every

46:49

high school here in utah has utah seminary

46:51

nearby and they're setting these things there's no doubt

46:53

about it but when it comes to what

46:55

they rely on for truth we talked

46:58

about this in the previous so it's all about personal

47:00

revelation what is that is

47:02

feel then i think for many

47:06

latter day saints unfortunately

47:09

we can use our bible and it

47:11

won't really have an effect on them but

47:13

then i have to understand that

47:15

i am not going to be able to convince

47:17

someone with my words is gonna have to be

47:20

the holy spirits who comes in

47:22

and takes over so went when

47:24

it when i when i'm in a conversation

47:26

with somebody and they're just

47:28

coming out with things that really or not mormonism

47:32

teaches they come up with their own the

47:34

ideas i always liked to say

47:36

where do you get the basis for been able to

47:38

believe the way that you believe versus

47:40

the way that i mean i know

47:42

what mormonism teachers and that's not

47:44

what mormonism teachers and i know what christianity

47:47

teaches it does not teach anything close to

47:49

that though trying to are

47:52

trying to work this is all kind of a puzzle i

47:54

would say shrine going to ask

47:56

each person as an individual and

47:59

but i think the are com a more to this

48:01

idea that the progress

48:03

of nature it's just what i believed and

48:06

who are you to tell me i'm wrong that would be very

48:08

law on kind of you to say that my

48:10

ideas are wrong when well i

48:13

am i'm saying that your ideas is not consist

48:15

sets either with your religion or

48:17

with the bible itself so have you on

48:20

what with modern lds

48:22

apologetics like going down the probe i hear this

48:24

all the time like we do believe in the same

48:26

type of grace it is by grace

48:29

and faith only do the commandments because i

48:31

have love for god it's not that they saved me

48:33

i always hundred remind them on a big will what article

48:35

three said you know things like that

48:37

list the believe that all mankind may

48:39

be saved to the tommy to jesus christ by obedience

48:41

the gospel when principles but there seems to be this

48:43

disconnect ever since this i'll

48:45

be a teacher bread wilcox a down really blurred

48:48

the lines between ah

48:50

what the actually truly hold

48:52

you in their doctrine in terms of a works

48:54

based salvation can you kind of explains

48:57

that like how can we break that that barrier

49:00

innocence if you take up

49:02

closer look at what brad wilcox

49:04

teachers and you can go to our website mrm dot

49:06

org we done podcasts

49:08

on him a he just spoke at general

49:10

conference last year very popular

49:13

speaker but he's really is

49:15

not saying anything different than what

49:17

mormonism teaches you have to

49:19

look closely at sounds like oftentimes

49:21

they they love to come up with these little catch

49:24

phrases and a people

49:26

gravitate toward that jeffrey are hauling for

49:28

instance a few years ago said you get credit

49:30

for trying a lot of mormons are tommy

49:32

on the street while i get credit for trying but you

49:35

read his talk very closely

49:37

he's not saying that you're going to get the celestial

49:39

kingdom it just means you get credit for try

49:41

but you gotta keep going until you actually

49:44

do what you're supposed to do how many

49:46

commit here's what i ask how many commandments

49:48

are you supposed to keep as latter day saints

49:50

in author answers in all

49:52

of them how often the

49:55

time yeah how are you doing at that

49:58

and because a doctrine

50:01

and covenants section one says for i the lord

50:03

cannot look upon sin with the

50:05

least degree of allowance nevertheless

50:08

he that repents and

50:10

does the commandments of the lord shall

50:12

be forgiven so wow

50:14

a guy like holland or guy like wilcox

50:17

can come in and make it sound like we're really

50:19

that close no a back why

50:21

is that every time i like the site if

50:23

he does to eight nine i'm sure you guys like that vs

50:25

well yes i never saw where do they go

50:28

the first thing they that works is that you know my

50:30

gun the same separate super center may have you thought

50:32

about yes and i always

50:34

say well i agree with james

50:37

well if you agree with james than you don't

50:39

agree with paul no no no no i

50:41

agree with james because what is he saying

50:43

he saints if you say you have

50:45

faith and good works will follow the bible

50:47

teaches at all over the place glacis after

50:49

five the through the spirits is obvious

50:51

lovejoy peace pace and said satirists

50:54

the bible says and romans eight that a christian

50:56

has the holy spirit in him

50:59

or her air and that's the one

51:01

who does the work in your life i

51:04

mean i like to go back to phases to

51:06

eight nine right words says not

51:08

by work first any man said both

51:10

what part do you not understand that verse

51:13

ten goes on after he just

51:15

says that and it says for we are

51:17

gods workmanship created by christ

51:19

jesus to do good

51:21

works which he prepared in advance for us to do to

51:24

of james and paul therefore

51:26

we're on the same page before

51:29

we were even created god created

51:31

us to do good works

51:33

and it's yet the justification

51:35

by faith alone a romans

51:38

chapter five a says were were justified

51:40

by faith apart from works

51:42

to the law read the book of galatians had a

51:45

powerful impact on martin luther

51:47

a that's where solar few days comes

51:49

from right a you know going back to

51:51

those passages but in mormonism

51:54

they have averse and they all know the verse

51:56

second he fi twenty five twenty three

51:58

mm your say by it's what

52:01

after all you can do i'm

52:03

a times have you heard that on the streets and you say

52:05

so how much can you do well

52:07

i can do a lot of are

52:10

so how are you doing at that well

52:13

i'm not quite there yet but i'm trying

52:15

or i'm doing my best well

52:17

wait wait let me understand what is try mean

52:20

try means you didn't do

52:22

that you

52:23

set out to do what does it say and first

52:25

knee five three seven first any by three

52:27

seven says that god

52:29

does not give commandments that cannot be

52:31

kept by the way notice i like to cite the versus

52:34

i don't cite them exactly i just give

52:36

the gist of it i the us if we can learn

52:38

those verses from their own scriptures

52:41

i think it has a powerful effect they all know first

52:43

knee by three servants and they go yeah

52:45

but i'm trying we you know what spencer w kimball

52:47

said about that in his book the miracle

52:50

of forgiveness i i this

52:52

agree with spencer w campbell in his book the miracle

52:54

of forgiveness but i do think he did a good job of

52:56

explaining what the unique the hundred

52:58

work say he said just do

53:00

it you're capable illuminate than just

53:03

do it he said amp pages one

53:05

sixty three and one sixty four of his books

53:07

trine is not sufficient nor

53:09

is repentance athlete one one merely tries

53:12

to abandon sense to try is week

53:14

to do the best you can is not strong you

53:16

must always do better than you can

53:19

this is true in every walk of life i think

53:21

mormonism is impossible for that wasn't

53:23

it you were bill there i

53:25

think i ran into at the temple and you were

53:27

a handing out copies of the miracle of forgiveness

53:29

i have i i actually talk about that

53:31

in our book sharing the good news with mormons

53:33

i have a website the miracle of forgiveness

53:36

dot com i have handed out since

53:38

two thousand and fourteen over fourteen

53:40

hundred copies the out on the streets

53:43

and talking to people ah

53:45

i get into more conversations with their book

53:47

some people really hate it because he does have

53:49

a section against homosexuality so there's

53:52

a lot of the younger people who hate mess

53:54

but many of them have not read it but

53:56

i find that the majority of the older latter

53:58

day saints have read it and so

54:00

i'll i'll stand outside the

54:03

, conference or byu football game

54:05

and i'll say free copy of this miracle

54:07

of forgiveness every letter they say no to read it and

54:09

then people with some pride say i've

54:12

already read it and then i ask that question oh

54:14

are you doing everything that spencer debbie kimmel

54:16

said you're supposed to do and then what are they

54:18

say drying i can't

54:21

see how you how my own founded i memorized phases

54:23

one sixty three and my sixty fourth the first

54:25

year i was reading it and after awhile you

54:27

just memorize it and so i have in my

54:29

mind because spencer

54:31

debbie campbell was correct if mormonism

54:34

correct if then tried is

54:36

not enough new need to keep the commands

54:38

to god and facts mentioned of you kimball said on page

54:41

on a is to have nine that perfectionism

54:44

achievable goal wow

54:46

yeah i think when i talk

54:48

with mormons samir thoughts disperse

54:51

is always come up one say we're doing outreach

54:54

right and thirty two year old ours

54:56

is he a come on at missile from the book of mormon says

54:59

hey come on to christ and be perfect

55:01

to the him the deny yourselves

55:03

of all and godliness and if you shall deny

55:05

your cells of our golly miss and

55:08

love god with all your might mind

55:10

and strength then is

55:12

is grace sufficient for you for

55:14

you that by his

55:16

greatest he may be perfect in christ and

55:19

if by the grace of god you are

55:21

perverting christ you can that

55:24

you can and now was denied there

55:26

was no the power of god so

55:28

i find what i try and least

55:30

push the mormon on as ask them

55:34

and you deny yourself of only goes

55:36

my point for singles back of myself

55:38

as and pointing i haven't i

55:42

though what about have you loved

55:45

god with all your might mind and strength

55:48

i haven't yeah euros is is

55:50

then you can't get around it and

55:52

i think i've noticed too

55:54

that as you have this conversation

55:57

they come to this weight in realization

55:59

that i don't

56:02

the also like oh my goodness i'm there

56:04

and that's when he how to tell them least from my

56:06

perspective that

56:08

you're under oath you're under yolk

56:10

you're under a burden everyone we

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56:57

us now back to

56:59

the episode like what would your experience

57:01

in this web users first or what are your thoughts on that

57:03

was actually my friend bill mckeever

57:05

put together seven vs that

57:07

he uses on the street oh

57:10

we called it the celestial law tactics

57:12

and it was later made out by

57:15

others a and so it's use a lot on

57:17

the streets s one of the key vs i

57:20

think we need to make sure we

57:22

have a lot of compassion for our lds

57:24

friends family members neighbors

57:27

who are under the bond

57:29

of that the yoke of of

57:31

mormonism because imagines

57:33

they are trying their best they really are

57:35

and i commend them for trying hard

57:37

for doing their best but if you're

57:39

not capable of doing what

57:43

mormonism says and what the scripture there

57:45

and them and in the a book of mormon says

57:47

then you're not capable of been

57:49

able to get to the celestial canucks the

57:52

onus is on the back of the latter day

57:54

saints if that's the case

57:56

they have no hope why is it here in utah

57:59

one other they said have the

58:01

highest percentage of religious people

58:03

we have over fifty percent

58:05

latter day saints in the state the we

58:08

have one of the highest rates of prozac

58:10

usage in the entire nation

58:13

why use it is now some might say

58:15

the rocky mountains you know that the mountains cause

58:17

that well really the others people

58:19

there's there's some doctors who say

58:22

that that has an impact on

58:24

depressants but i'm in a suggests you

58:26

there are a lot of people who have manicured

58:28

lawns and every week

58:30

every sunday they open up their garage door

58:33

with the remote control and then they go in and

58:35

than that closes behind them the

58:37

and and there's a lot of sadness

58:39

there because they're doing their

58:41

best they're trying hard and they're not capable

58:43

of doing everything they know they're supposed to do i

58:45

talked to people on the strings all the time

58:47

that's why i think spencer debbie kimball's book is

58:50

not loved because

58:52

he's sustain brass tacks

58:54

and for them that's not

58:56

good news and i would agree the

58:59

bible teaches that there

59:01

is good news there is hope

59:03

there is a possibility of knowing

59:06

that you have a relationship with god

59:08

and is not based on what you did

59:11

what you do it's based on what god

59:13

did and that happened two thousand years

59:16

ago when jesus died on

59:18

the cross and he said it is

59:20

dentist you no longer have to do

59:22

the works now he says

59:24

i have my work

59:26

done i have accomplished that i

59:28

have finished it's and he was

59:30

see what we call amputations he wants

59:32

to credit us with rights assists that

59:35

we do not helps them

59:37

is that what we need and neck and the

59:39

guy can provide to spencer w campbell said

59:42

you have to be like a superman you have

59:44

to basically keep all the

59:46

lobbyists superman's i went to say

59:48

i do need a superman's but

59:50

it's not me is teases sees

59:52

this is the one who paid the price and

59:55

died for my sense of i might be able

59:57

to have a relationship with him and when you

59:59

understand in that concept

1:00:02

it changes you radically as

1:00:04

far as what works are all

1:00:06

about works are important chapter nine in

1:00:08

my book is about sanctification yes we

1:00:10

believe as christians to do good works

1:00:12

but we don't believe those good works are somehow earnest

1:00:15

god's favor and das what mormons

1:00:17

are not seen so

1:00:19

we need to have that compassion we need the

1:00:21

love latter day saints we need to be

1:00:24

speaking the truth alavi thesis after

1:00:26

for we need to have an answer

1:00:28

for everyone who asks us to give the reason

1:00:30

for the hope we have to do

1:00:32

with gentleness and respect and i think that's

1:00:34

what you guys do i say as

1:00:36

if you hate mormons would you be doing

1:00:39

call this podcast know he wasn't them

1:00:41

out of mormonism in in the crisis at

1:00:43

it and and i think our motives are pure

1:00:46

even though latter day saints think you must really hate

1:00:48

me yet as you do this is this

1:00:50

bottom of this podcast is is

1:00:52

so negative toward the mormon wealth let me

1:00:54

say there is bad news bad

1:00:56

news is you're a center and on the wages

1:00:58

of sin as death but there's a com after

1:01:00

that in romans extremely three the with the gift of god's

1:01:03

eternal life through christ jesus

1:01:05

our lord if somebody goes

1:01:07

of their doctor and the doctor says

1:01:10

oh you're doing just fine and

1:01:12

own your leisure come back and ago i'm just

1:01:14

not doing well he says well yeah last

1:01:16

year i knew you had cancer i just want to ruin

1:01:18

your down what kind of doctor would there be

1:01:21

bad news is nice to be delivered

1:01:23

sometimes yes you are going to hell

1:01:25

if you don't have a relationship with jesus

1:01:27

and yet there is it there's good news

1:01:30

the gospel means good news here and jesus

1:01:32

is there in the bible

1:01:34

you can read about him and you can receive him

1:01:36

as your lord and savior and that's my hope for

1:01:39

every latter day saint i talked no

1:01:42

in and is so it's so important because when

1:01:44

you talk about how bout theology hurts eve

1:01:46

or even just affects people that

1:01:48

you just see the cold for in utah is heavily

1:01:51

affected by this workspace

1:01:54

salvation so you talked about not

1:01:57

it's not as prozac mean if utah

1:01:59

leads the a ruse wanna top leaders

1:02:01

the nation of all sorts of different type of prescription

1:02:04

pills and and like seen x

1:02:06

and all sources also stuff and substance

1:02:08

abuse really a lot of the drugs used

1:02:10

to be very mind numbing to

1:02:12

know how they feel but ,

1:02:14

swindled leading areas for a

1:02:16

plastic surgery pornography as well right

1:02:19

and just because there's that pressure those

1:02:21

there's the sociological pressure from

1:02:23

the woman's perspective to have that perfect stepford

1:02:26

wives looks and

1:02:28

they're just more and more pressure especially now

1:02:30

not only just that warren pressure

1:02:32

within you have the instagram influencer

1:02:35

i've talked with people her ex mormon and they felt

1:02:37

they had so much pressure now

1:02:40

where is like i had is more than i could bear

1:02:42

as i think that's really really

1:02:44

big on for the any other areas you

1:02:46

seen disagree with cold for ah

1:02:48

within just utah your time here weakest

1:02:51

seen that practical played out

1:02:53

the yoke and the burden of people have and how they

1:02:55

carry that out oh yeah i mean are

1:02:57

just talking to people on the streets eight

1:03:00

, think you get that idea that ah

1:03:03

they really are good people as far as what

1:03:05

what is good been it it means that i'm a good

1:03:07

neighbor i am oh my grass ice

1:03:09

i do nice things at and so at

1:03:12

the same time when i called them out

1:03:14

on that doing everything

1:03:17

i think either kind of lower

1:03:19

their head and they just a i think they

1:03:22

easily i get discouraged air

1:03:24

and i don't think it's necessary to

1:03:26

, discouraged when there is the answer but unfortunately

1:03:30

unfortunately than two percent of or buddy who lives in utah's

1:03:32

evangelical christian evangelical ,

1:03:34

need people coming here to like you guys

1:03:36

you know i mean you've just moved here last

1:03:39

year andrew ends we need more christians

1:03:41

here who are going to have the safety

1:03:43

net available for people

1:03:45

who are leaving the church and rose

1:03:47

and i think it's i think it's

1:03:50

unfathomable that only ten

1:03:52

percent of everybody who lives mormonism

1:03:54

ends up going the evangelical christianity

1:03:56

that that numbers to small that's why this book

1:03:59

introducing chris in a mormons i

1:04:01

wanna give good information

1:04:04

a reminder for those who are christians but you

1:04:06

know what we don't see theology very well anymore

1:04:08

back in the old days it seem like it was a little better

1:04:10

people don't read people don't think very

1:04:12

much but we need to know what christianity teaches

1:04:15

and then we need the also understand our mormon friends

1:04:17

and neighbors and their mindset so

1:04:19

that we can give the best possible

1:04:21

presentation of christianity

1:04:24

to them they might have

1:04:27

an aunt we have an answer i think the

1:04:29

provinces to the question of

1:04:31

where did we come from why are we here where

1:04:33

we going i think it var supersedes

1:04:36

anything that mormonism hast offer no

1:04:39

, our think one of my a just

1:04:41

want to charge that popped out me as well to

1:04:44

or as we cannot go to the store to tell him for conversation

1:04:46

here is that a growing in the face that

1:04:49

they're that chapters in here the just him oh

1:04:52

this is gonna unconventional for a book

1:04:54

is like older friend but i think this

1:04:56

is really good because it isn't just about

1:04:58

helping someone leaving mormonism even

1:05:01

someone is helping them get

1:05:03

out of mormonism get out as cold

1:05:05

and we want them out of it and with crisis

1:05:07

but then even so for someone who's lds

1:05:09

or any x coldest there's a lot of

1:05:11

there's a lot of challenges that a lot of on

1:05:14

thinking that they have to do a mean

1:05:16

i'm sure either player conversations

1:05:18

with people who are xl the as even years

1:05:21

later still having struggling

1:05:24

knowing that the say by faith alone by having

1:05:26

that programming of

1:05:29

that pressure from word still in their mindset

1:05:32

practically in this chapter maybe

1:05:34

maybe just talk a little of little bit

1:05:36

about that what what drove you'd write this

1:05:38

applicant towards the tail end as

1:05:41

we said chapter three existence

1:05:43

of god chapter i think it's seven

1:05:45

resurrection will mormons believe in the resurrection

1:05:47

but that is the cornerstones for what christians

1:05:49

all about so i wrote that's after to sets i'm

1:05:52

trying to be pro christians and then

1:05:54

i'm hoping that year lds

1:05:56

friend is not only asking or maybe

1:05:59

has just left the church but they're not only

1:06:01

asking what you believe it okay

1:06:03

so what do i do now that's how i

1:06:05

start the chapter with the ah

1:06:08

a couple that were eighty years old

1:06:10

this is a true story all the stories in there are

1:06:12

true and the at this

1:06:14

a seven years ago this eighty year old couple

1:06:16

came in as a bookstore at sandra tanner utah

1:06:18

lighthouse bookstore and said

1:06:21

i don't believe joseph smith anymore we been

1:06:23

the church for eight years what are we do now what

1:06:25

would you do if you got has that question what do you

1:06:27

do now well first thing

1:06:30

is i think we need to talk about finding

1:06:33

a church home where you can

1:06:35

grow some would say you stay in the

1:06:37

church maybe you can help people get out no i don't

1:06:39

think that's a good idea i think you

1:06:41

need to find a a good christian church here

1:06:43

in utah we have a website a

1:06:46

sponsored by our a ministry mrm

1:06:48

dot org it's called utah churches

1:06:50

dot org and we just bought utah churches

1:06:52

dot com era shop a wallet also

1:06:54

ahead of that one so so a so

1:06:57

that there's a place you can go find a church

1:07:00

a i i don't think you can live christianity

1:07:02

without the fellowship of the believers the

1:07:05

bible says that it doesn't know of a christian

1:07:07

who is not somebody who gets involved so

1:07:09

whether you go to apology a i

1:07:11

go to the mission there's different good churches

1:07:14

here in the utah area or elsewhere

1:07:16

outside and so a hopefully

1:07:18

a a former latter day saint has an evangelical

1:07:21

christian friend who would take them to church a

1:07:24

to help guide them a little bit and

1:07:26

then of the the chapter also

1:07:28

deals with what are some other things that we

1:07:30

do as part of the sanctification

1:07:32

process to grow in our faith well

1:07:34

we better be in our bibles we need to learn

1:07:37

how to study the bible for ourselves we can't just depend

1:07:39

on the pastor a we we need

1:07:41

to learn how to pray a there

1:07:43

are so i am trying to go through some

1:07:45

real basic things that a christian

1:07:48

could communicate and i think

1:07:50

if somebody does become a christian that

1:07:52

you could read that safford together with your friend

1:07:54

and say it's hear some of the things they consider

1:07:56

but i think if you get put into the right troops

1:07:58

in a local church the not just watching

1:08:01

on tv that people are going

1:08:03

to know your name that you actually can go

1:08:05

to maybe some classes bible studies

1:08:08

gets a know people that's how

1:08:10

we're gonna grow is by having other people

1:08:13

who are invested in us

1:08:15

and so as a lot for if you're a former latter

1:08:17

day saints and want to

1:08:19

become a christian going to church

1:08:21

doesn't make you a christian you i'm going to

1:08:24

church is going to help you

1:08:26

become a better christian

1:08:28

yeah what do you think

1:08:30

i'm like out ezra appearing in

1:08:32

thank you so much for taking the time i'm really

1:08:35

hoping that this book i really

1:08:37

kind of helps and reaches out

1:08:39

of the people are you that you wrote up for

1:08:41

in the book is called are introducing christianity

1:08:44

to mormons and like long

1:08:46

term and we talked about broad

1:08:48

variety of thomas will appear all three

1:08:50

of us like outta wrap up what

1:08:52

would you say where they recently to road

1:08:54

together what would you like to see this

1:08:56

book meet you get some up okay

1:08:59

rise been a lot on this sums up most

1:09:02

decades of ministry decades of of would just

1:09:04

hundreds of conversations reading materials

1:09:07

everything like that but you could just some of what

1:09:09

you think what he hoped long term this

1:09:13

look at does what would that look like for you

1:09:15

i hope that christians

1:09:17

are challenge to share the christian

1:09:20

faith with their lds friends certainly

1:09:23

i wanted me get out of mormonism we need to

1:09:25

understand the basics of mormonism to help

1:09:27

them get out but once they've made

1:09:29

that decision that mormonism is no longer

1:09:31

true or they just wanna understand

1:09:33

what it is it you believe i hope this book encourage

1:09:36

you to be able to share what it

1:09:38

is that we believe is chris is because if

1:09:41

we have the truth and i do

1:09:43

believe we do then we

1:09:45

need to share that truth

1:09:47

with latter day saints in a way that they

1:09:49

can understand so this book written

1:09:52

specifically to help somebody

1:09:54

explain christianity someone with

1:09:56

the mormon world view and in the last part

1:09:59

the gloss the to fight for this by the way wouldn't

1:10:01

my publisher because they only want you to do so many

1:10:03

pages in the middle is going to have a as your

1:10:06

i said i wanna have a glossary that

1:10:08

explains the terms that are used

1:10:10

in this book and i didn't want to have to explain it

1:10:13

with him a chapter so i tower size

1:10:15

the word whenever that first word is used seat

1:10:17

and come back here and look at it but throughout

1:10:19

i actually takes some other terms

1:10:22

that we have like

1:10:24

for his his grace what is it grace

1:10:27

mean to a christian wealth

1:10:29

according to the christian it's unmerited favor

1:10:31

with god i only got one census oaks

1:10:34

that's what i said are provided to those who placed

1:10:36

their faith in jesus and lds

1:10:38

enabling power provided by god to help a person

1:10:40

keep the commandments completely different

1:10:42

so i'm hoping that this book the

1:10:44

like a resource that somebody could go

1:10:46

i'm not quite sure what my mormon from means when he says

1:10:49

grace wealth to neighboring power own

1:10:51

naval power to do what to keep the commandments

1:10:54

and yet you ask them are you doing it know

1:10:56

so what good is grace if if it's not

1:10:58

if is not working so i hope that

1:11:00

the so that's kind of a longer answer than you might

1:11:02

have looked for but i just hope that

1:11:04

it's and a clipper and then i hope it's a book

1:11:06

that christians feel free

1:11:09

to give to their lds friend because i've written

1:11:11

it as if a mormon is reading this so

1:11:14

i try my best not to be on

1:11:16

necessarily offensive but i also want to share

1:11:18

the true all right thank you so

1:11:20

much eric again introducing christian

1:11:22

age of mormons available now at

1:11:25

on amazon christian bookstore dot com

1:11:27

or whatever a this book

1:11:29

that wherever it's available we have links in our

1:11:31

description as of right now a

1:11:33

severe as enjoy this episode hope it was encouraging

1:11:36

for you and as always a

1:11:38

please leave a comment or social media let us know

1:11:40

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1:12:00

where we enter into the kingdom of the colts

1:12:02

thought you next week