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now and help close the gap. Hello

1:03

and good morning y'all. We are

1:06

gearing up for a wild week

1:08

in preparation for Justice Toll to

1:10

decide Ellie Komurdock's fate on Monday,

1:12

January 29th and likely on the

1:14

30th. I'm so excited

1:16

to be covering the hearing next

1:18

week and chatting with premium members

1:20

on the premium feed as the

1:23

events unfold. Learn more about how

1:25

you can join the conversation at

1:27

lunasharkmedia.com/membership. This week's Cup of Justice

1:30

will be a little different as

1:32

we invite new contributors to expose

1:34

the truth, give voice to victims,

1:37

and get the story straight. On

1:39

today's show, Eric and I explore

1:41

ethics and criminal defense with well-known

1:44

Atlanta criminal defense attorney, Noah Pines.

1:47

Next month, Liz and I are excited

1:49

to interview Noah's client, Joey Watkins, who

1:51

was finally released from prison after 22

1:54

years as his conviction for a crime

1:56

he didn't commit was overturned. We're going

1:59

to be doing More episodes like

2:01

this one or one or two

2:03

C O J whole interview, special

2:05

guests and we love to hear

2:07

your feedback as C O J

2:10

amplifies more voices, illuminates more cases,

2:12

and educate few on more concept.

2:14

Today's guest is no A Pine

2:16

a criminal defense attorney from Philly

2:18

but currently practicing and Atlanta, Georgia.

2:21

Noah was one of the first

2:23

supporters other Murdoch Murders podcast. During

2:25

our conversation with him recover how

2:27

he found himself in the legal

2:30

profession. How he became a fan

2:32

of our podcast and listen and

2:34

how hard it is to overturn

2:36

a murder conviction. In a segment

2:38

reserved just for Premium members, Noah

2:40

starts asking the questions to A

2:42

Be and me about the team

2:44

and what's next for C O

2:46

J. I'm so excited to share

2:48

this interview with y'all So let's

2:50

get into at. Freezer

2:53

Looney Short Members: True

2:56

Someone listeners and Couple

2:58

Justice listeners cough syrup

3:00

everybody of ah, drugs

3:02

or. This. Is a

3:04

special morning. We. Have ah man

3:06

be mad the with me and we

3:09

have or really really good friend that

3:11

we've been dying to interview. World

3:13

famous back summer criminal defense attorney know

3:16

of times out of Atlanta, Georgia man

3:18

he would you think? Are we excited

3:20

to do this or what? I'm. So

3:23

excited! And ah, particularly because we

3:25

get a lot of crap from

3:27

people that say that our defense

3:30

attorney reheat. Defense attorneys and defense

3:32

attorneys hate ours. and we don't.

3:34

We love defense attorney figure an

3:36

important job users Noah Noah. Thank.

3:39

You for joining us today. Thank you for

3:41

having me! This is a big deal

3:43

Mandy! In her. Author

3:46

or a big deal. Love it, love

3:48

it, love it. Good too. Good to

3:50

see and know. you and I talk

3:52

a lot by tax than Nog once

3:54

or twice by telephone, but this is

3:56

really exciting to see you. Really excited

3:58

to get deep into. You are

4:00

and what makes you tick. And

4:03

yeah, you've done such a good

4:05

job in responding to a lot

4:07

of the criticism that week sometimes

4:09

receive and people criticize us by

4:12

saying that were wrong and you.

4:14

Either defend us and say we're right

4:16

or you challenge those. They really don't

4:18

have the legal knowledge that you as

4:20

throughout the smart all matter. So we're

4:22

going to get to a quickly. Tell.

4:25

Us a little bit about yourself. who you

4:27

who are you tells better family. Tell us

4:29

about how long you been. A lawyer will

4:31

like you. I grew up farm outside of

4:33

Philadelphia. I came to Atlanta when I was eighteen

4:35

to go to college and basically state in the

4:38

south. ever since then. Really

4:40

had no idea that I wanted to

4:42

be a lawyer even in college didn't

4:44

have an idea and the the person

4:46

knows what was your major political science.

4:48

An. Easy as major and at Emory

4:51

so you know, didn't have to write a

4:53

paper is pretty easy. As a goddess to

4:55

that, Emery's not easy. Amazon even now. Memories

4:57

not easy. Yeah, but someone suggested you know

4:59

the person I was dating of the times

5:01

that we should go to law school and

5:04

I was like that sounds like a good

5:06

idea. We ended up breaking up and not

5:08

going to law school together which is a

5:10

great. The Incas is led me to my

5:12

wonderful wife Jen but. He. Went

5:14

to law school and and Mandy like

5:16

you. I'm a huge introvert arms which

5:18

is weird because there are lot of

5:20

trial lawyers who are introverts in. So

5:22

the thought of getting up and speaking

5:24

in front of people just speaking in

5:26

general or two people that was really

5:28

never something I thought I do. I

5:30

thought I beat the behind the scenes.

5:32

can a guy in Just through some

5:34

internships and experience some led me to

5:36

where I I started practice. I interned

5:39

in juvenile court. I worked with kids

5:41

who were deprived meaning they weren't keep,

5:43

they were neglected or. They. Were Delinquent meaning they

5:45

were charged with you know acts that would be

5:47

crimes of the were not. Asked. for

5:49

juvenile court judge who ended up on tv

5:51

for a while detach it's in from their

5:53

made it to a prosecutor's office to have

5:55

an internship and my intern supervisor who's one

5:58

of my good friends usually a year than

6:00

me. Just one day we were doing a

7:03

trial trial. I think more than you

7:06

realize, I've talked to a bunch of people, they're

7:08

definitely the extroverts

7:20

but a lot of us, I'm

7:22

exhausted after a trial. I just want

7:24

to go back and chill out

7:27

and relax. But it's something

7:29

where when I'm in court, it's

7:32

not like turning it on but I know what I

7:34

need to do. And walking

7:37

into a courtroom, I'm comfortable. Walking

7:40

into a party, sometimes

7:42

you're just like, whoa, there's a lot of people here

7:44

and there's all these sounds and

7:46

noises and I'm like, I just want to find

7:48

somebody I know and talk to them sometimes. That's

7:52

more my personality. I don't

7:54

love the small talk, really

7:57

enjoy the deeper conversations. And

8:00

the two people right here, we

8:02

have a sign, I have a sign that

8:04

says, I don't think, you know, I'm a

8:06

big Larry David fan and he has this

8:08

thing. I don't think stop and chat. Yeah.

8:10

Mandy and I were at a function and

8:12

I looked at her and you know, she's

8:14

very vivacious and bubbly and everything, but she's

8:17

also an introvert and, uh, you know, it

8:19

took us a while to start to be

8:21

able to make small talk and do stop

8:23

and chat, what do you think Mandy? You

8:25

agree? Yeah. It's funny that you say that

8:27

because I was about being an

8:29

introvert and a lawyer because when I was at the

8:31

point of my life trying to figure out what I

8:34

wanted to do, I was always pretty good at like

8:36

making an argument on paper. I was always good at

8:38

writing. I knew that, um, didn't

8:40

know if I was good at anything else, but I

8:42

always just kind of thought

8:45

I can't be a lawyer because I

8:47

can't picture myself arguing in a courtroom

8:49

and I thought that all like in

8:51

high school, I just thought all lawyers

8:53

were trial lawyers. I didn't know that

8:55

they're just a small fraction of them. You

8:59

would have been an amazing brief writer. You

9:01

would have written such good briefs. Oh

9:03

my gosh. I know, but I, I just, I

9:05

just immediately thought that that wasn't possible for me.

9:07

Cause I was like, I couldn't stand up in

9:09

front of a courtroom every day and make a,

9:12

I just go blank when I'm in front of

9:14

people. So, uh, but yeah,

9:16

I mean, I think it, it, you

9:18

get more used to it. And it's funny that

9:21

you say that about small talk, because when I

9:23

started calling Eric back in

9:25

2021, uh, that's

9:28

what I really liked about him because

9:30

most southerners, it just takes a very

9:32

long time to get them to get to

9:34

the point of. Like

9:37

you're trying to Eric would just get

9:39

on the phone and say, Hey, here's how it is, blah, blah,

9:41

blah, blah, blah. And then, and then also

9:43

a lot of my sources at the time

9:46

wanted to talk after they had something to say,

9:48

you know, blah, blah. And they, and it would

9:50

just be like hours on the phone with these

9:52

people. And I, I like all

9:55

these people, but I, right. You're

9:57

efficient. I don't like to waste time, but

9:59

I. I love

10:01

that Eric would just be like, okay, that's what I

10:03

said, bye. Yeah. Well,

10:07

that's the filly in Eric. That's the filly

10:09

way, which is sort of you get to

10:11

the point and then you're done. I

10:14

like it. I like efficiency. That's

10:16

how I am too. I'm a really big

10:18

into time efficiency. The funny thing is, I

10:22

always thought about being an investigative journalist.

10:24

That always kind of intrigued

10:26

me with what I do. So

10:29

to get back to your point, Eric, yeah, so I've

10:32

been with my partner for over 20 years and I

10:34

always say it's like marriage without the sex. You're

10:37

in this relationship. There's

10:39

some things that he does that drive me crazy.

10:42

I'm sure there's lots of things that I do

10:44

that drive him crazy. But

10:46

I use his strengths for part of the

10:49

practice. He uses my strengths for the other

10:51

part of the practice. We understand that together

10:53

we are better than we would be separate

10:55

and- Same like Ronnie and Mae. Yeah,

10:57

we started our firm with just Peter and

10:59

myself and one assistant and now we have

11:02

five lawyers who work for us and 14 support

11:04

staff. Most of

11:06

our majority, 10 of our support

11:09

staff are bilingual. We

11:11

have a huge immigration practice that we built

11:13

really before people were, before

11:16

criminal lawyers did immigration and

11:18

they kind of go together. So it's very important to

11:20

have that. So

11:23

why criminal law? I

11:25

interned at the Washington DC Public Defender's

11:27

Office in my last year of college

11:29

and most of the people who work

11:31

at the DC Public Defender's Office were

11:34

former Supreme Court clerks and I

11:36

was watching some really heavy lifting

11:39

in the Superior Court there in DC

11:41

on criminal cases and it just, I

11:44

don't think I could take that emotion

11:46

of getting close to a defendant and

11:49

then either fleeing that defendant or they

11:51

would lose a trial and then they

11:53

go away. And I

11:55

just couldn't see myself doing criminal law. What

11:58

was inside of you that- Hey,

12:00

you know what? I can do. This

12:02

I can handle this hard emotional stuff.

12:04

Whether these people were wrongfully charge door,

12:06

they did do something that the government's

12:08

being too oppressive on them. What was

12:10

there something in your childhood high school

12:12

college that made you want to do

12:14

criminal law? So not necessarily when I

12:16

started out as a prosecutor like this

12:18

is kind of fun. And then the

12:20

question is, would you do hello? Do

12:22

stay prosecutor for the rest of your

12:24

life Like someone like Creighton. Be in

12:26

own. My wife and I were. Talking.

12:29

About starting a family which is very difficult when

12:31

you work for the government and you want you

12:33

know you both decide that you know she wants

12:35

to stay home with our children in the beginning.

12:38

And so is either Korea Prosecutor maybe go to

12:40

the Us Attorney's office which I interviewed with or

12:42

make the switch. And there was a time that

12:44

I wasn't ready to make the switch and I'm

12:46

like I have. I don't know that I can

12:48

defend criminal cases. And then when

12:50

I realize was that he make that mental

12:52

had a a mentally make the switch. Yeah

12:54

well so I thought I was a pretty

12:56

fair prosecutor a me I prosecuted lots of

12:58

child abuse cases. I dismiss lot of cases

13:00

to. I mean my last year. In.

13:03

The Da's office a me and seven months.

13:05

I tried fourteen child molestation cases which is

13:07

a lot that's to a month for, you

13:09

know, Seven. Months. And.

13:13

The. Year before I had a lot of

13:15

people go to prison for long time and

13:17

as I I don't know if it's right

13:20

for me. And then I realized not every

13:22

prosecutors as fares I am and I can

13:24

do my job and you know do it

13:26

with integrity and do it with honor and

13:28

help people And that's what you realize and

13:30

what you realize it. Eric I'm Mandy Use

13:33

You know this from talking to victims in

13:35

victims' families sometimes. is it? I mean it's

13:37

always about your client. But.

13:39

Sometimes it's about their family to

13:41

it's that the grandma, you know,

13:43

who brought me a picture of

13:45

her grandson who she raised who.

13:48

His. I broke my heart. He was sixteen,

13:50

charged with armed robbery, and in Georgia, sixteen

13:52

armed robberies. Ten years mandatory minimum. prison

13:55

and they treat you as an adult and she

13:57

brought me a picture of him when he was

13:59

like seven years old, playing little

14:01

leagues, running the basis. And

14:03

no matter what he was charged with, and you

14:05

know, no matter what his culpability was, and he

14:08

may have been a party to the crime, meaning,

14:10

you know, he sort of helped it happen. You

14:12

know, he's a 15 year old. He's a kid.

14:15

That grandma is always going to say, we don't want to write

14:17

the book. We don't want to write the book on a 15

14:19

year old. You know, there's a lot

14:21

of chapters left. Exactly. And that grandma looks

14:24

at him, not as that 15 year old, but

14:26

that seven year old. And you know, that's one

14:28

of the things I realized is there's, there's always

14:30

family members that are out

14:32

there too, that this impacts way as

14:34

much as it does really the defendant.

14:38

And there are some oppressive prosecutors. There

14:40

are some people who don't get treated

14:42

fairly in the system. There are police

14:44

officers who are not ethical. There are,

14:46

you know, judges who don't

14:48

treat people fairly too. So, you know,

14:50

I always say sometimes we're there for

14:52

mitigation. Sometimes we're there for mitigate for

14:55

vindication. So sometimes you're just trying to

14:57

mitigate the damage and

14:59

sometimes you're trying to vindicate your

15:01

client and say, we did not do this. What

15:04

kind of cases do you not take? Like,

15:06

yeah. Mandy and I were curious

15:08

about that. Or are there any, how do you decide?

15:11

Yeah. How do you decide that? Some people

15:13

don't take pedophile cases. I take

15:15

really messy cases. Any case, any

15:17

pedophiles. I mean, I do. I actually,

15:19

I do a lot of appellate work there. I

15:22

represent people charged with child molestation all the

15:24

time. Wow. What do I do? How about,

15:26

you know, some people say I won't represent

15:28

a rapist or a thief or, you know,

15:31

sure. Well, let's start with my general principle.

15:33

My general principle is if I start to

15:35

judge my clients and make, make

15:38

judgments on their actions, then

15:40

it's time for me to quit what I'm doing. Like my

15:42

job is not to make moral judgments on my

15:44

clients. I can't, you know, it's kind of

15:46

like, think about the ER doctor who sees somebody

15:48

who's been shot all over that ER doctor doesn't

15:51

say, well, you know, is this Eric Bland or

15:53

is this, you know, some gang banger? And, you

15:55

know, do I really want to do the surgery

15:57

the best I can? You just gotta, you can't

15:59

make moral judgment. And

16:01

when I do, that's when I need to quit. That's

16:03

interesting. That doesn't mean I take every case. There are

16:05

some cases I just don't like. I

16:08

stay away from cartel drug cases. I

16:10

don't like those. I stay away

16:12

from anything that could endanger

16:14

my safety. And there

16:16

are some people that I just don't want to

16:18

represent. There are some cases every once in a

16:21

while where there was a case here in Atlanta

16:23

where a teenager with mental health issues lured these two

16:26

other teenagers behind a grocery store and killed them. And

16:28

I was like, you know what? It's just too close

16:30

to home. It

16:33

literally was close to home. And the

16:35

kids were my kids' age at the time, and I'm like, I'm just going to

16:37

stay away from that. I stayed

16:40

out of cases, like the Young

16:42

Thug case, if you know about that, the YSL case,

16:44

which is a huge case in Atlanta. It's been going

16:46

on since January. I stayed out of that case not

16:48

because of the content but because I didn't want to

16:50

spend a year in trial with the same lawyers. That

16:54

would just drive me nuts. And kind

16:56

of to get back to the criminal part, criminal

16:58

moves quicker, as you know, Eric. It

17:01

is not – we're

17:03

not dealing with motion after motion and

17:05

deposition, and then another motion and reply.

17:08

It just moves quicker, and it's actually better for my

17:10

brain. I realize this as much as I sometimes would

17:13

like to put the stress away, it would be like,

17:15

you know what? No more criminal. I

17:17

don't need the stress in my life. I'll just go deal

17:19

with our civil practice because we have a ton of civil

17:21

cases that need to be tried. I

17:24

realize my brain is just not wired for

17:26

that as much as it is for what I do.

17:29

This is kind of where I

17:31

thrive. Well, are you known

17:33

for a particular discipline, like Jack Swirling here

17:35

in our neck of the woods, you know,

17:38

he's Mr. Murder. You

17:40

know, every time they write an article about him,

17:42

they say, oh, he's tried 300 murder cases. That's

17:45

a lot of murder cases. Yeah, he's 77.

17:47

Yeah. He's 77. He's a good friend. But

17:51

what I'm saying is, you know, that's a

17:53

tremendous amount of trial murder cases. I

17:56

mean, it's just, are you known for

17:58

something, or are you more a generalist? like I

18:00

am. It's not that it's yeah

18:02

I mean it's not it's it's

18:05

more general criminal I mean you know look I

18:07

represent my son's friends on speeding tickets and then

18:09

I'll go handle a murder case or a child

18:12

molestation case or a rape case. I would say

18:14

that lawyers know that

18:16

I handle a messy case. A messy case

18:18

doesn't bother me it kind of excites me.

18:20

Sometimes not excites like in a creepy way

18:23

just like the how do I deal with

18:25

this right like and I guess I'm known

18:27

to be creative you know

18:29

in cases that seem unwinnable and

18:32

I do a lot of appellate work too so it

18:34

kind of you know goes hand in hand that sometimes

18:37

in a in a case I'll try

18:39

something that another lawyer maybe hasn't tried because I

18:41

have already thought about it as an appellate issue.

18:44

Do you make do you do

18:46

a lot of appellate arguments? I do

18:48

yeah so I handle a lot of

18:50

appeals on cases that I haven't tried

18:52

mostly those are murders or you know

18:54

child sex crimes where other lawyers make

18:56

mistakes you know they

18:58

don't do their job they're ineffective we get a lot

19:00

of that lawyers who just

19:02

should not be handling you know cases

19:04

that where people can go to prison for the rest

19:06

of their life. That happens

19:09

all the time. So I have

19:11

a question Noah was

19:13

one of our first advertisers on

19:15

MMP back in the day. I

19:17

was. A long time ago in 2021 like

19:19

we just had a handful of advertisers.

19:23

How did you hear about MMP? What made you

19:26

like it? What made you be a fan and

19:28

then of Cup of Justice? How'd you get interested

19:30

in this? Sure so I can't

19:32

remember I can't remember if my wife

19:34

Jen told me about MMP to begin with you

19:36

know Murdoch obviously led

19:39

into Georgia just because of the

19:41

sensationalism of the story but

19:44

I was like in and I my

19:47

wife says this all the time she's like you're such a

19:49

cynic I'm like I'm a cynic but I'm right like 90%

19:51

plus of the time probably

19:53

like probably like you too and

19:56

I was like something's not right about this case and this

19:59

is when it was got first reported you know

20:01

that they got something

20:03

just doesn't sound right

20:06

and Dunwoody

20:10

daycare murder case where

20:12

a wife had her husband

20:14

killed and I remember my wife saying you know oh

20:16

they love I was like nah it's a love triangle

20:18

she's like you don't know what you're talking about these

20:21

people everybody knows them says they were love and I'm

20:23

a love triangle of course it was a love triangle

20:26

so Murdoch you know definitely

20:28

interested me in the story and then I think Jen

20:30

told me about the podcast and I listened to it

20:32

and I was like oh this is this is really

20:34

good I listened to undisclosed

20:39

you know I listened to a couple seasons

20:41

that including Joey Watkins case which we can

20:43

talk about later and sometimes like the

20:46

I hate to say it bored me but

20:49

it bored me because it was just sometimes

20:51

too deep and there was just something about

20:53

MMP that kind of grabbed my attention so

20:55

I started listening in the beginning when everybody's

20:57

making fun of your voice Mandy you know

21:00

and so I'm a beginning listener and and

21:02

by the way what you have done and

21:04

I'm gonna say you because it is really

21:06

you first with Liz and then Eric it's

21:09

just incredibly amazing and you know but by

21:11

saying I'm proud of you I don't want

21:13

to sound patronizing I've enjoyed watching what you've

21:15

built and it's really incredible and I

21:17

don't think people realize what it takes

21:19

to build a podcast especially to the

21:22

level that you have with the amount

21:24

of listeners you have it's it's incredible

21:26

so hats off to you or cups up to

21:28

you I guess is a better way to say

21:30

for what you've done and so I just I

21:32

became an early listener I saw you needed some

21:34

sponsors and it was just one of those things

21:36

where I was like yeah this is the right

21:38

thing to do because I enjoyed the

21:40

show and I wanted to help out and

21:43

then I free how long I sponsored

21:45

at the beginning and then I kind of tailed off

21:47

on it and I think by the time I tried

21:49

to sponsor again you guys were like too big it

21:51

was like you guys were

21:53

really big so then I sponsor cups of justice for a

21:55

little bit and you know I remember

21:57

the early shows when Eric came on and it's

22:00

As soon as Eric came on, like, Eric,

22:02

I don't sound like I'm from Philly anymore.

22:04

You obviously do. And as

22:06

soon as you start talking, there's like this familiarity that

22:08

I'm like, oh man, I got to listen to this

22:10

guy a little bit. And you

22:13

sound like the people I grew up with. And

22:15

then of course, Cup of Justice, I think is an interesting

22:18

take on sort of to be able

22:20

to have these conversations without it really

22:22

being scripted isn't the right

22:24

word, without it being as focused, a little bit

22:27

more loose. Yeah, I remember

22:29

when Eric started on those

22:31

first few episodes, getting so

22:33

many messages and tweets from

22:35

people saying, I like

22:38

Eric, he has to be from Philly,

22:40

right? Like people, people immediately knew you

22:42

were from Philly the first time you

22:45

started talking. It was great. I

22:47

want to get back to this, but we should

22:49

take a commercial break. So we will be right

22:51

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clothing. Okay,

24:32

so I want to talk to

24:35

you Noah about the Joey Watkins

24:37

case. Can you walk us through

24:39

it and how you got involved?

24:42

And it's just very

24:44

fascinating as we in the Murdoch

24:47

case are currently dealing, we're not

24:49

in appeals but what phase

24:51

are we in? I don't even know. What

24:54

do you call whatever we're in right now? No, I

24:56

mean you're in the sort of the direct appeal because you're

24:58

still in the motion for new trial. Yeah. Direct

25:01

appeal, yes. So tell us about Joey. So

25:04

Joey Watkins was a teenager

25:06

up in a small town in North

25:09

Georgia called Rome, Floyd County. And

25:13

you know if you asked Joey what kind

25:15

of kid he was he would probably say

25:17

he was a little bit of a rebel

25:20

and a little bit of an ass to a bunch

25:22

of people. But you know that's just kind of the,

25:24

he was a teenager. Rome is

25:26

a small town and he dated,

25:29

everybody dated everybody. I mean his

25:31

trial like everybody who testified had

25:33

dated somebody else. But there's

25:35

a gentleman by the name of Isaac Dawkins who

25:37

was killed and he was killed while driving his

25:39

truck down a road like a

25:41

four-lane divided highway, you know, median

25:43

in the middle of the grass. And

25:46

they didn't have any suspects. You know,

25:48

there was a car that was in the area,

25:50

a blue car and that's not what Joey drove

25:52

but people just started

25:55

saying, you know, Joey, Joey, Joey. And

25:57

the reason was is because Isaac dated

25:59

Joey's ex-girlfriend. Joey had moved on

26:01

from his ex-girlfriend. So

26:03

Joey's name comes up, he's investigated by

26:05

the local police. The local police have

26:07

nothing on him in a, in essence,

26:09

close the investigation. And then what happened

26:11

was the family went to the county

26:13

police. So the local police meaning the

26:15

city police, the county obviously has control

26:17

of the entire county and this detective,

26:21

his name Stanley Sutton who ended

26:23

up passing away recently. And you

26:25

could do a whole year on

26:27

Stanley Sutton in his cases and

26:29

what he's done I think to

26:31

people, you know, Stanley starts really

26:33

confirmation bias against Joey and

26:36

just starts jamming these pieces together to

26:38

make them fit and they didn't fit.

26:41

And Joey gets charged with murder. And

26:43

Joey would tell you he wasn't

26:45

worried because he didn't do it. He just really

26:48

wasn't worried. So he had a

26:50

question really quick. I'm sorry. I

26:52

hate interrupting people, but what

26:54

was the way of homicide? So he

26:56

got shot. Sorry, I should have said that. So okay.

26:59

Shot in his car. Isaac is

27:01

driving down a road and he

27:04

veers to his, he's driving, you

27:06

know, let's say, I can't remember North,

27:08

South, East, West. Anyway, he's driving in, you

27:10

know, one direction. He veers across the median and

27:12

then ends up in the woods on the other

27:15

side of the highway. Okay.

27:17

And he dies of gunshot. There's an

27:19

eyewitness that eyewitnesses. There's a blue car

27:21

that was behind Isaac's

27:23

car, by Isaac's truck. The

27:25

only car in the area is this blue car. And

27:28

by the way, Joey didn't drive a blue car. He drove a

27:30

pickup truck. And that's all they had. So

27:33

they have Isaac dead in his truck. They

27:35

have a really just

27:37

kind of a horrible police investigation at the

27:40

scene. Nobody really knew what they were doing. We

27:42

don't have pictures of everything that we need. And

27:45

that's what they had. And

27:48

so Stanley Sutton, to kind of go

27:50

back, starts, you know, it's Joey. It's

27:52

Joey. It's Joey. You

27:54

know, a long time ago when cell phones, people

27:56

had cell phones, but cell phone evidence was, you

27:58

know, sort of an infinitive. And the

28:01

important part to know is that during

28:04

the Joey's trial, testimony came out that,

28:06

you know, Joey was near his house

28:09

when he made a call that pinged off a cell

28:11

phone tower. That cell phone

28:13

tower and the murder happened in another place.

28:16

So, you know, house here, murder here. The

28:19

problem was that Joey's lawyers didn't really understand

28:21

the cell phone evidence, nor did the state,

28:24

and they just – nobody talked about time distance. So

28:27

time distance, it was 8.2 miles

28:31

roughly from where Joey was to

28:33

where the murder happened. He would

28:35

have had to leave

28:37

the area where his cell phone pinged, drove

28:39

down a highway, done a U-turn because he

28:41

had to get to the other side of

28:44

the highway, killed Isaac, and he would do

28:46

that in 4 minutes and 30 seconds. So

28:49

8.2 miles in 4 minutes and 30 seconds. Wow.

28:53

Impossible, right? Yeah. It

28:55

doesn't make any sense. By spaceship. And

28:57

by the way, there was construction. There were cars. There was

28:59

traffic. It was just – but

29:02

nobody – you know, nobody understood

29:05

that, and nobody explained that to the

29:07

jury, and Joey got

29:09

convicted. I mean, he got convicted at

29:11

trial. There's a whole bunch of other

29:13

stuff that the DA's office did, including

29:15

burying a ballistics

29:18

report that really hurt Joey. The

29:20

allegation was that Joey had killed

29:22

two dogs, one of

29:24

the dogs being Isaac's dog, and the

29:27

other one was what they called the graveyard dog, which

29:29

was a dog that was found near the grave of

29:31

Isaac, which really wasn't near, was found in a ditch

29:33

on the side of the road. And

29:35

the DA's office kept saying that Joey's

29:38

the one who did it, and this ballistics matched,

29:40

and it turns out the ballistics didn't match. Time

29:42

out. How often does that happen? You

29:45

just said they buried a report, and that

29:47

just made Mandy and me just go

29:49

into orbit. I mean, does that happen

29:52

alive? Is it common?

29:54

Do you see it? Is it accidental?

29:56

Is it intentional? Well, in this case,

29:59

it appears – intentional because

30:01

it was delivered to the district attorney's office during

30:03

the trial and of course everyone's like well we

30:05

didn't know about it. I

30:08

would say that deliberate bearing happens

30:10

a lot less than intentional

30:12

shading and intentional shading

30:14

although I think can be

30:16

worse. You know I can give you

30:19

a quick example. I handled an appeal

30:21

of a guy who got convicted of

30:23

rape in Savannah area

30:26

and when the GBI agent came

30:28

and testified she's testified that there

30:30

was DNA found in the rape

30:32

kit and that it was likely

30:34

improbable sperm. So likely improbable.

30:36

To me that means like there's a good

30:39

chance and the way

30:41

that you determined if there were sperm in

30:43

the DNA is actually pretty easy. You'll look

30:45

under a microscope. They didn't look under

30:47

a microscope. They used a procedure that

30:49

wasn't approved. This is the GBI so the

30:51

Georgia Bureau of Investigations. Instead of

30:53

looking under a microscope which takes like 10 seconds

30:56

they used a procedure that

30:59

was not approved and

31:01

when we had the GBI supervisor come testify

31:03

at the motion for new trial hearings she

31:05

admitted that they didn't look under the microscope

31:07

that the procedure that they used was not

31:09

approved and that likely improbable doesn't

31:12

even mean 50% which

31:14

is crazy. And by the way my client lost

31:16

his appeal. He lost his

31:18

appeal because the court of appeals in Georgia said that

31:21

that's not enough to show. We allege

31:23

that the lawyer was ineffective for not

31:25

getting their own DNA expert and

31:27

the court's like yep you lose and the Supreme

31:29

Court of Georgia failed to hear it. So there's

31:31

a lot of shading I think that happens more

31:33

than intentional hiding. But to get back to

31:35

Joey's those are the two big issues. So he gets

31:38

convicted, he gets life in prison and

31:41

he starts to write the

31:43

Georgia Innocence Project and back then

31:45

the Georgia Innocence Project maybe had

31:47

like a hundred thousand dollars in

31:49

funding. It's a project that's designed

31:51

to help exonerate people who are

31:53

wrongly convicted and they're like look we're

31:55

not going to take your case because you had a

31:57

good a lawyer and there's no DNA.

32:00

We don't take non-DNA cases. Back then,

32:02

they were only taking rape cases with

32:04

DNA because they could definitively prove that

32:06

somebody didn't do it. So 12

32:08

years later, 12 years after, and Joey

32:11

lost his appeal, he lost his habeas. I

32:14

think he lost a federal habeas. He

32:16

was explained to our listeners how you

32:18

go from state court after the Supreme

32:20

Court denies an appeal, and then you

32:23

migrate to federal court. Everybody says, you

32:25

know, habeas corpus, what does that mean?

32:27

And then also, we heard Dick the

32:29

other day mention, well, if

32:31

we get into our appeals or go to federal

32:34

court, explain that to our listeners. So in Georgia,

32:36

you have the right to direct appeal, which means

32:38

you file a motion for a new trial. You

32:40

allege – we do things a little bit differently

32:42

in Georgia than South Carolina. You have to allege

32:44

ineffective assistance of counsel, which means your lawyer sucked.

32:46

That's a motion for a new trial. Then you

32:48

can allege it on appeal. And then once your

32:50

direct appeal rights are over, meaning the

32:53

Georgia Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court has

32:55

ruled, you have no more direct appeal. You can't

32:57

appeal again, so you get one shot. So

32:59

in Georgia, you file a motion for a

33:01

new trial. You allege that your trial counsel

33:04

was ineffective, and then you go to the

33:06

Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court, depending

33:08

on what kind of case it is. Once

33:10

that's over, once your appeal is over, you

33:12

have no more direct appeal rights. You can

33:14

file a petition for habeas corpus,

33:16

either in state court, which you have to do

33:18

within four years, or in federal court, which you

33:20

have to do in a year. The

33:23

time things are a little bit interesting.

33:26

Most people don't file federal habeas. They're

33:29

very hard to win, so most people just file

33:31

a state habeas. But Joey

33:33

was 100% out of appeal rights. He

33:35

had nothing left. And he

33:38

goes to the Innocent Project. They say

33:41

no. He keeps writing them

33:43

year after year after year, and they

33:45

say no. And then in, I think it was like 2014,

33:47

they agreed to take the case. And

33:54

they're convinced that he's innocent based on the cell phone,

33:57

because it's just so—it's just clear.

34:00

Murdoch, the cell phone evidence, put

34:02

Alec in the area of the

34:04

murder and it showed where he went. That's

34:06

exactly what I was thinking. Yeah, put him in it. This

34:08

is the opposite. Yeah. This

34:11

is the opposite. It puts him out

34:13

of it. It's just not possible. It's

34:17

just not possible. In one year,

34:19

what year was the murder? Sorry, early

34:21

2000s? Yeah, I think it was 2000

34:23

is when his trial started, 2000. And

34:27

then around the – a lot of

34:29

this is reminding me of the Adnan Syed

34:31

case, which I'm sure you're familiar with because

34:34

of the Undisclosed podcast. Right.

34:36

And the cell phone evidence was shaky

34:39

in that case. And

34:42

yeah, it sounds very similar, but continue.

34:45

So Adnan was season one of Undisclosed.

34:47

And they were looking for people for

34:49

season two and the Innocence Project was

34:51

like, we're going to submit our case

34:54

to Susan Simpson and see if they'll pick it up.

34:56

And they did. This case is

34:58

season two of Undisclosed. And they

35:00

just did an incredible job of

35:02

really digging into all the problems

35:04

with the case. The

35:06

witnesses who were lying, Stanley Sutton, who

35:08

just was known to get people –

35:11

he put a reward

35:14

picture in the jail

35:16

of like, hey, we need information on

35:18

this case. And then guess what? Jail

35:20

snitches will come out. Horrible. Because

35:23

there's a direct reward. This

35:26

is the craziest thing. You know, I always forget

35:28

this. And the lawyers who worked on

35:30

the P.O. forget it. During the preliminary hearing,

35:33

the state had wiretaps, but

35:35

there was allegations that Stanley had done

35:37

some other taping that was outside of

35:39

the wiretap. And

35:41

Joey's lawyer asked the detective

35:43

about whether there was any other, like,

35:46

kind of an illegal wiretap. And

35:48

no joke, the guy took the fifth.

35:51

The detective took – He's still employed? Is

35:53

he still employed? He's dead now. But

35:56

the detective took – He took the fifth

35:58

during the preliminary hearing. their preliminary hearing.

36:01

And when I was looking

36:03

at this, I was like, this is

36:05

huge. And the appellate lawyers

36:07

were so focused on the appeal, like you

36:09

sometimes you don't pick up stuff like that.

36:11

I'm like, this is ridiculous. And by the

36:13

way, he didn't testify at the trial. The

36:16

lead detective did not testify at trial. It's

36:19

crazy. Crazy. So

36:21

Joey gets convicted. They believe this

36:23

other guy, there's so many crazy

36:25

parts of this story, they believe this other

36:27

guy named Mark Free was also involved in

36:30

murder. He gets charged. His case gets severed,

36:32

meaning like split off from Joey's and

36:35

he goes to trial and gets acquitted. So

36:39

one guy gets acquitted, who's allegedly with

36:41

Joey, who committed the murder or one

36:43

of them shot. And so Mark

36:45

gets acquitted, Joey gets convicted. Isn't

36:47

that crazy? Yeah. So

36:50

anyway, the Innocence Project takes it to

36:53

undisclosed and they start digging through and

36:55

they literally knock door to door and

36:57

start talking to people that don't want

36:59

to talk to them. They start talking

37:01

to jurors who don't want to talk

37:03

to them. And they finally meet, they

37:06

find one juror who at first didn't

37:08

want to talk to them and then starts talking

37:10

and mentions sort of like off

37:12

the cuff while I, the

37:14

cell phone evidence while I drove, I drove

37:16

it during deliberations and

37:19

they're like, oh, okay. I mean, they knew how

37:21

big this was, but they didn't want to freak

37:23

her out. And so they kind of just ask

37:25

information. And it turns out

37:27

that this juror on

37:30

a weekend drove from what she thought

37:32

was point A to point B. The

37:34

problem was she picked the wrong spot.

37:37

She didn't know where point A and point B were. She

37:39

drove it when there was no construction. She drove it

37:42

on the weekend when there was no traffic and she

37:44

drove it in the opposite direction, meaning

37:47

she didn't have to make the U-turn that

37:49

Joey would have had to make to make

37:51

all this happen. So she just kind of drove, you

37:54

know, from where Isaac was shot to where

37:56

Joey's house was. And she's like, oh

37:58

no, it can be done. And she

38:02

brought that into the jury room. There's

38:04

a question of how many people she

38:06

told, if anybody. We

38:08

believe that she definitely told other people, but

38:11

it's huge information, which

38:14

is also, again, Yeah, that's

38:16

internal interference. Right, and so

38:18

the Innocence Project files

38:20

a new habeas, basically saying, like, we

38:22

could not have discovered this before, we

38:24

didn't know this before, this

38:26

is new information, we get one more shot. And

38:29

the court dismissed it and said, nope, too bad,

38:31

you're procedurally barred, you should have raised it

38:33

before. And so that gets appealed

38:36

to the Georgia Supreme Court, and

38:38

they say, nope, we're not gonna hear

38:40

the case. So Joey's,

38:42

again, out of luck. Out of luck.

38:44

And out of luck. And the lawyer

38:47

named Ben Goldberg, he's a private lawyer like

38:49

myself, who volunteered his time pro bono to

38:52

help the Innocence Project, just

38:55

filed a motion to reconsider in front of the Supreme

38:57

Court and just laid it out again and

39:00

cited a case and they said, all right, we'll

39:02

hear it. And all

39:04

they were hearing was whether we could then proceed

39:07

with the habeas. And so they heard it

39:09

and they said, you know what, we're gonna

39:11

let you proceed with habeas. So then we had-

39:13

That is amazing for them to reverse. Yeah.

39:16

Because that's rare. They reversed themselves. Yes,

39:19

extremely rare. Like normally, like I filed a motion

39:21

to reconsider a couple of weeks ago and someone

39:23

was like, that was really good. And I was like,

39:26

yeah, thanks. And it got denied like the next day.

39:28

They rubber stamp it. Yes. So

39:31

that gave Joey the opportunity to file

39:33

a habeas. And of course, the Attorney

39:35

General's office is, you know, they don't,

39:38

our Attorney General's office, like they don't care.

39:41

They don't care that there's this evidence. They

39:43

just don't care. They don't care that this juror did this.

39:46

And the big issue, right, is

39:48

that this is a violation of

39:50

Joey's constitutional rights. Because what you

39:52

have is unsworn testimony in

39:55

the jury room that's, you know,

39:57

which is this one juror, it's

39:59

unsworn, uncrossed. If

40:01

she told any other juror anything, you

40:03

know, that would impact their verdict. But

40:05

more importantly, it impacts her verdict. So

40:08

she is now bringing something into the jury

40:10

room by herself by

40:13

saying, oh, I did it, and it can be done without

40:15

sort of the cross-examination. And

40:17

of course, if she tells it to any other juror, then it's even

40:19

worse. But by the way,

40:22

the standard, we had to prove actual harm. So,

40:25

you know, I know you guys talked about that in

40:27

the last Cup of Justice. But yeah, the actual harm

40:29

or actual prejudice was the standard that

40:32

the habeas court made us—and I

40:34

say us. I wasn't part of the case at

40:36

that time. I knew about it,

40:38

and this is how it all came about. I

40:41

knew about Joey's case. I knew my friend Ben was

40:43

working on it. They were doing their

40:45

habeas corpus case in north Georgia up near the

40:47

Tennessee line, and I just happened to be up

40:49

there for a case. It's like two hours outside

40:51

of Atlanta. So I see all

40:54

the people from the Innocence Project. And

40:57

I said, what are y'all doing here? And they're

40:59

like, oh, we're arguing Joey's case. I'm like, well, how's

41:01

it going? And they're like, it's going pretty good. I

41:04

said, okay. I was like,

41:06

well, if you win this proceeding,

41:09

I'll try the case with you, Ben, for free. He's like,

41:11

really? I'm like, yep. And,

41:13

you know, lo and behold, I forget how long after that,

41:15

he calls me up. He's like, remember when I saw you

41:18

up in Walker County? I was like, yeah. He's like, remember

41:20

what you said? I was like, yep. He

41:22

goes, oh, we won. I was like, all right, well, I'm in now. And

41:24

so that's how I joined the case. And

41:27

that's how I joined, you know, Joey's defense. How

41:30

many years ago was that? The whole

41:32

process, he – his habeas

41:34

was granted in 2022. So

41:39

his habeas was granted in 2022. We

41:42

secured him bond in the beginning of 2023, and his

41:44

case was dismissed at the end of 2023. And

41:47

they're not going to retry that? Well,

41:49

they were. They really were. They

41:51

were. They were. And there

41:54

is no doubt in my mind that the

41:56

podcast helped Joey get a new trial. I

41:59

think it really did. And, you know,

42:02

it's interesting because the people wanted to

42:04

cover sort of our representation of Joey.

42:07

And, you know, when we talk about

42:09

media and how media gets

42:11

into a case, and they wanted to kind of

42:13

do a behind-the-scenes, and I'm like, absolutely

42:16

not. You know, like, I'm

42:18

not letting a camera into our discussions. I'm not

42:20

letting, you know, anyone – well,

42:22

we won't air until after. I'm like, no. It's

42:24

just no, you know. And it's – We

42:27

know Harpoolian Griffin did it

42:30

with, you know, their trial situation.

42:33

They showed some of that in the Fox documentary.

42:35

I just found that to be incredibly offensive. Yeah,

42:37

no. I mean, it was like there's not even

42:39

a question that we're going to do it because,

42:41

you know, this is Joey's life. Thanks for having

42:43

me. Yeah. It's like, what am I going to

42:45

act for you guys? I'm not going to say

42:47

what I'm really going to say on a camera.

42:49

Right. Like, I would never do

42:52

that. You're not coming into our strategy session because,

42:54

by the way, anything I tell you as a

42:56

reporter is not privileged. Right. You

42:58

know, you could be subpoenaed. Privileged, right. And you're

43:00

not giving up your work product. I'm not

43:02

giving – yeah. And so, I think they were kind

43:04

of mad about that. But, you

43:07

know, and I can't remember, Mandu, if it

43:09

was you or Liz sort of talking about

43:11

playing, you know, chess, and it's – or

43:14

even you, Eric. You know, if it is chess,

43:16

it's three-dimensional chess. It's not just on a board.

43:19

It is every – everything

43:21

that we do, everything that I

43:23

do on a case, you know,

43:25

I think about from every possible

43:27

angle. And my whole thing with Joey

43:29

was, how do we – how do we convince the

43:32

DA not to retry this case? And, you know, for

43:34

a while, I didn't know that it would happen. And

43:37

it was a new DA, so she had

43:39

no really, you know, skin

43:42

in the game for this wrongful conviction. But

43:45

trying to, you know, convince her why

43:48

Joey shouldn't be recharged was really difficult. Yeah,

43:50

we'll talk about that when we come back

43:52

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45:05

right, so how do you do that?

45:07

Is it over time? Is it by

45:09

wearing them down? Is it by paper,

45:11

conference room meetings, mediation?

45:13

What do you do? Yeah,

45:16

it's multifaceted, Eric. It's

45:19

multifaceted. Do I want

45:21

to tell you exactly how I did it? Not

45:23

now. Really? Don't tell me how you made the sausage.

45:25

OK. Yeah, no, it was, look,

45:28

you have to know who your audience

45:30

is, in addition to knowing your case.

45:32

And what I would say is that

45:34

we had a very good strategy of

45:37

the motions that we were going to file and

45:39

how we were going to file the motions. And

45:43

there were a lot. I mean, I think

45:45

we filed like 20 motions to challenge certain

45:47

evidence, to get in certain

45:49

things. And then it really was

45:51

just presenting the cell phone evidence.

45:54

One of the things I learned from Murdoch

45:56

was about the CART team. We

45:58

have cell phone experts here. The i

46:00

didn't know about a car team and so I reached

46:02

out to a card expert. And.

46:04

You know I told the Da's office as I don't

46:06

trust me. Go talk to somebody from the F B

46:08

I used in the cart team. Joke.

46:11

Ask them and that's one of the things

46:13

Yokozuna Club leave my expert no matter who

46:15

they are the like. but you go, do

46:17

it. and I think you know when just

46:20

kind of push came to shove. They really

46:22

realize that the cell phone evidence. Was.

46:25

Just insurmountable. In

46:28

so doing what is feel like know

46:30

us you know feel like when they

46:32

when you made that phone call and

46:34

to you know to was that to

46:36

go. Most gratifying feeling you've ever had

46:38

in your career and I think it

46:40

was It was like I can in

46:42

still is. An extremely was coming

46:44

in and I had left the team know and

46:46

you know that that the team was just so

46:48

involve to I don't I don't want to give

46:51

them fossil out it's I never give a client.

46:54

The. News until it's signed and filed. Like so

46:56

we're all the other lawyers were on the phone

46:58

on like okay it's it's gonna happen That would

47:00

mean I'm like is the case is going to

47:02

get dismissed Will can we call Joey and like

47:04

know. And I would mean on like until

47:06

I see as filed copy because I can't ever

47:08

give a client false hope. I mean that's the

47:11

worst thing you could do to somebody. the imagine

47:13

me like I think your case is going to

47:15

get dismissed. Eric allows wrong. Now you get a

47:17

good trial for murder kill hey and a member

47:19

when you're going to go to prison for life.

47:21

Now you're not a weight as wrong. I'm sorry

47:23

I thought it was gonna happen. so unless it's

47:25

done I don't tell a client and the oh

47:27

while we're delors were on the phone. In.

47:30

A week we teach a man aunts

47:32

and so Claire Gilbert who. Who. Has

47:34

been with the Innocence Project forever and really started

47:36

this. Him was on the podcast a lot with

47:38

Susan. I'm like are listed join the phone and

47:40

Claire's you do it and so seized So Joey

47:43

and she starts talking but I was like. Joe.

47:45

Your case is dismissed. As I get it,

47:47

I was like he was gone on and

47:49

on and I kill. Your case is dismissed.

47:51

Light switches tell him we got a then

47:53

you can tell them whatever you want but

47:55

like give him the news N N C

47:57

I see just really couldn't believe. it What's

48:00

he doing now? Is he trying to get his life back? How

48:02

did he get your life back after 23 years? So

48:05

his family owned a car

48:07

business, a used car business. He's been working

48:09

there since he got out. He was such

48:11

a great person even when

48:14

he was in custody that, you know, for the

48:16

last few years, he was down in where

48:19

the Georgia State Patrol services their cars. And

48:22

Joey, you know, knows how to work on cars. So

48:24

he was like kind of – he

48:26

got out of jail during the day to go work. He

48:28

was kind of in work release. And so he

48:30

actually worked – he worked on police cars, and

48:33

they loved him. We actually had people come up

48:35

and testify for his bond hearing who were law

48:37

enforcement officers to say, you know, this

48:39

guy works on our cars every day. He's the greatest guy. We trust

48:41

him. And so he's back in the car

48:43

business. Okay. This is the

48:45

first Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's that he

48:47

spent out in 22 years. He

48:50

went in at 20 and out at 42. Wow.

48:54

And, you know, I was actually messaging

48:56

with Mandy one day, and we were

48:58

just kind of joking around. And she mentioned

49:00

Joey's case. I was like, you know

49:02

what? Like, you're right, Mandy. I have

49:04

to reach out to him and just

49:08

see how he's doing. And, you know, I

49:10

sent him pies for Thanksgiving so that he

49:12

could have a little something extra special. He

49:15

went to – I called him up

49:17

when the Braves were in the playoffs, and I was like, you

49:19

ever been to a Braves playoff game? He's like, nope. I'm like,

49:21

all right, well, come on down. You're coming tonight. And

49:24

just to be able to get

49:26

to experience life again. And he's not bitter. You

49:28

know, I don't know that I wouldn't be bitter,

49:30

but he's grateful. Rudy Soo, did he do a

49:33

civil suit? You

49:36

know, civil suit would be really difficult in Georgia. It's

49:39

very, very difficult, but we're trying to get

49:41

him compensation through the legislature. Like,

49:43

they'll have to pass a special law. All

49:45

right. I have one more legal question, and

49:47

then I want – we're going to get

49:49

in your ultra-marathon running. And how

49:51

long you've been co-jack for. But when

49:55

you do ineffective assistance of counsel

49:57

on a client, have you ever

49:59

assisted in that? Like, that always seems to

50:01

me like the client's criticizing your

50:03

representation, but you want it to

50:05

happen so that they have a

50:08

chance. Do you ever testify

50:10

and say, yeah, I could have done

50:12

this and I probably should have done

50:14

this, or you don't cooperate in that

50:16

ineffective assistance argument? That always is interesting

50:18

to me. Yeah, no. I mean, you

50:20

have – so just

50:22

for the listeners, ineffective assistance means

50:24

your lawyer didn't do a

50:27

good job, which could be a

50:29

constitutional violation. Anytime I have a client who gets

50:31

convicted of a serious offense, I say,

50:33

go find another lawyer, get

50:36

another lawyer for the appeal. That way they

50:38

can allege ineffective if I've done anything

50:40

wrong. If I've done something wrong, I'll 100%

50:42

admit it. There are certain lawyers that

50:44

won't admit it. I'm working on an appeal

50:46

where one lawyer represented two people charged with

50:49

murder, and one of

50:51

them was accused of murdering their child, and

50:54

the other one was accused of what's called

50:56

second-degree murder for leaving the child in the

50:58

care of the mother who was abusive, which

51:01

is just impossible. It's not ethically possible

51:03

to do that because the defense for

51:07

the one spouse is – Conflict. I didn't

51:09

know that she was abusing the kids. Like,

51:11

that would be the defense. And

51:13

that lawyer just refused to admit any

51:15

– I mean, she was

51:18

horrible in what she said. If I make a

51:21

mistake, I'll admit it's a mistake. You

51:23

have to. And we all make mistakes. Mandy

51:26

wants to ask you some questions about Mertal

51:28

and what you think of the lawyering

51:31

and the prosecution. Well,

51:34

to start out, I

51:37

think something that has been very baffling

51:39

to me, and I don't know about

51:41

you, Noah, trial

52:00

and like it was an easy thing. Can

52:07

you support

52:29

the verdict and every time I find

52:31

an error in a case it's always like, well

52:34

you are right, there is an error but

52:36

it's a harmless error which means it didn't impact the

52:38

verdict I will come home after a day and

52:41

I will tell my wife I just lost an appeal she's

52:44

like you get no offense you lose every appeal which

52:46

isn't true i don't lose every appeal she

52:48

knows how hard it is you

52:50

spend all this time working on appeals and you

52:52

are like you think you have a good issue

52:56

and the court is like Yep it's harmless or you

52:58

know we are just not going to give you a

53:00

new trial and it happens all the time right

53:03

and I was surprised even

53:05

seeing headlines this week acting

53:09

like Judge Toll has suddenly

53:11

made this an uphill battle

53:13

like it was sliding his

53:15

way to a new trial

53:17

it's always an

53:19

uphill battle that's the way the system is

53:21

designed once you are convicted by a jury

53:23

of your peers it's really

53:25

really hard to get a new trial and I

53:28

felt like I was in crazy land watching people just

53:30

assume okay let's get ready for a new trial and

53:32

like what is going on

53:35

here yeah no I mean and

53:37

the problem is people don't really understand the

53:39

law and how the process works and

53:42

how difficult it is like I just kind of knew

53:44

I mean I've listened to a lot of undisclosed I've

53:47

listened to Serial I

53:50

understood how hard it was for

53:52

Adnan Syed to get released finally

53:55

after years when there was lots

53:57

of evidence in his face And

54:00

again, we are talking about a

54:03

man here where there

54:05

is a lot of evidence that he is at the

54:07

scene of the crime during the

54:09

crime and nobody

54:12

else is. It's just, it

54:14

seems insane to me. But on that

54:16

note, I would like to ask you

54:18

about Dick and Jim and what you

54:21

have thought of their defense

54:23

throughout this case. Well, I'm going to

54:25

– I have a couple pieces of paper, which you

54:27

can't read. But I started

54:29

– I went back through my DMs with

54:31

you through Twitter, which by

54:33

the way, I wasn't using Twitter back then, but I started

54:35

using it because everybody was on it. Mandy,

54:37

I have some paper in front of me

54:40

that I want to read to you, and it's our

54:42

DMs back from December of 2022. And

54:46

I guess you were getting a lot of hate,

54:48

so I said, f the haters. You're doing a

54:50

great job, except one thing. You and Eric keep

54:52

saying how smart Dick and Jim are, but

54:55

only morons make multiple factual statements

54:57

about their cases, especially before seeing

54:59

all the evidence. Nothing Alex

55:02

said was vetted, and every criminal

55:04

defense lawyer knows their client doesn't

55:06

always tell the truth. They

55:08

are just two dudes who wanted the fame

55:10

of being on TV. I'll

55:13

talk law all day, never facts.

55:15

That's December 1, 2022. December

55:20

3, 2022, I just said, after listening

55:22

to the last episode of MMP, I'm

55:24

convinced Dick and Jim are morons who

55:26

are just used to their

55:28

power and bullying people to get what they

55:30

want. They've got a reputation of being great

55:32

lawyers, but no one has ever put that

55:35

to the test. So from the beginning, I

55:37

couldn't believe – Don't

55:40

forget, Noah. Don't forget that Jim

55:43

went out on TV and said Alex had a clear-cut

55:45

alibi. He was not at the murder scene. I

55:47

know. For a year. I know. It's

55:50

crazy. You never do that. He

55:52

did it on a documentary. You never

55:54

do that. Look, I handled a

55:57

super high-profile case in Atlanta of

55:59

a – an Atlanta police officer who

56:01

shot and killed somebody in self-defense and

56:03

every CNN and Fox and

56:05

MSNBC, everybody wanted me to be on

56:08

every night. And I didn't

56:10

do any of them. I did one. The only media

56:12

I did was I did a 45 minute

56:14

core TV segment because

56:16

I knew Vinny, you all

56:19

know, and I knew that

56:21

Vinny wouldn't do any gotcha stuff. He

56:23

would actually let me talk and it

56:25

was a controlled environment. But there's no

56:27

way I would have gotten on the

56:29

news and started talking facts or anything

56:31

about that because until you have every

56:34

fact and have reviewed every fact, you

56:36

can't talk about the facts because your

56:38

credibility is the most important thing. Dick

56:41

and Jim had no credibility to me walking

56:43

into that courtroom because of all the stuff

56:46

that they said before that wasn't true. And

56:49

that's like – that is a big deal. Well,

56:51

Dick actually said that they were going to

56:54

show who the murderer was and no defense

56:56

attorney has that obligation. And Mark

56:58

Garagos I think did it in the

57:00

Scott Peterson case or was done somewhere.

57:03

Nobody ever does that. And the other thing is it

57:06

still sticks in my head. This

57:08

must have been gang related or drug

57:10

related that came in and sought revenge

57:13

against Maggie and Paul. But

57:15

what drug cartel or what gang people

57:17

come on somebody's property without a gun

57:19

and they're going to go

57:21

into your house and get your guns and

57:23

then kill the people with your guns. I

57:26

mean it's not feasible. And if there's

57:28

two people – because they said it was a

57:31

two person shoot – nobody can keep that secret.

57:33

Look, Dostoyevsky in Crime and Punishment, the guy who

57:35

did the murder couldn't keep it to himself. How

57:38

did two people keep a secret

57:40

where other people aren't going to have known

57:43

that over the past three years? Don't you

57:45

think somebody would have given a

57:47

snitch to the police or somebody – there's

57:49

not been a word on

57:52

anybody else doing these murders

57:54

except Alex. Nothing. Nobody's

57:56

trading it for a lighter sentence. Nothing.

57:59

And if that was true – Alex would know at least

58:01

a general idea of who the people were.

58:03

Right. Right. If it was really a drug

58:05

cartel that he was involved with or something

58:08

nefarious, he would have a general idea of

58:10

who that was. And would offer up that

58:12

information to the police. Exactly. Exactly.

58:15

So, Mandy, I,

58:17

from the beginning, I can say,

58:19

you know, that's where

58:21

Eric, you know, you get, oh, they're good

58:23

lawyers. I didn't see good lawyering

58:26

in this case. Now, again, that doesn't say

58:29

that I would win this case because it's

58:31

a really hard case to win. But,

58:35

you know, starting off like that— Would you have put

58:37

Alex on yes or no? Well, I mean, there's

58:39

only two decisions client makes, right? I make every

58:41

other decision. They decide guilty or not guilty, and

58:43

they decide if they want to testify. I

58:46

would have advised Alec not to testify. I

58:49

think he would have done it anyway, but

58:51

I would have done a cross

58:53

of him myself, you know, because clients say that all

58:55

the time. Like, all right, I want to testify. I'm

58:57

like, and I just ask him like 10 questions in

58:59

a row. And they're like—and I'm like, and

59:01

that's a soft cross. And they're like, yeah, I get it

59:04

now, right? I get it. You

59:06

know, he was ripe for cross-examination. I was

59:08

actually thinking about that this morning, and I

59:11

think Creighton did a good job. Not a

59:13

great job. I think

59:15

he could have done more. You

59:18

know, I would have started off with, you

59:20

know, who's your—who do you trust most in

59:22

your life, you know, or you're close with

59:24

your dad, you're close with your brothers, you're

59:27

close with Maggie, you love

59:29

them. Are you closer with anyone else? And they're just kind

59:32

of gone through all the people he lied to. You know,

59:34

you lied to your dad, you stole from your dad, you

59:36

lied to your brother, you stole from your brother, you lied

59:38

to your wife, you didn't steal from

59:40

her. But I mean, it

59:43

goes to—is there anyone you

59:45

haven't lied to? Oh, yeah, the jury. I'm not

59:48

lying to the jury now. Oh, okay. These 12

59:50

strangers, you're going to tell the truth to, but

59:52

you literally lied to everybody else in

59:55

your life. That you love. That you

59:57

love, including your dad. Everyone.

1:00:00

And that's why the financial part is so important. Yeah.

1:00:02

What do you think Dick and Jim's

1:00:05

biggest mistake was throughout the last three

1:00:08

or two years, whatever we're at, two and

1:00:10

a half years? You know, you would

1:00:12

– I don't

1:00:14

feel like they thought of the

1:00:17

global resolution to

1:00:19

everything. Like, you've got to figure

1:00:21

out – like, there's no way we're

1:00:23

getting them out of the financial stuff. I

1:00:26

just didn't see a strategy. I think it's a totality. I mean,

1:00:28

like – I think it's a totality.

1:00:30

Don't you think? Not one single thing? Right. It's

1:00:32

global. I mean, I had a case – I

1:00:35

tried a case up in Floyd County in Rome, and

1:00:37

my client was charged with like four separate cases. And

1:00:40

I'm like, I think we could win

1:00:42

three, but you're going to lose this fourth one. Like, I

1:00:45

can't – it was just cut

1:00:47

and dry. It was literally on paper. And

1:00:50

I'm like, and this is what you're going to get,

1:00:52

and you're going to get a non-prolable sentence, and we

1:00:54

have to resolve all the cases. And

1:00:57

he decided to take the case to trial, and he got a – I

1:00:59

think a 30-year non-prolable

1:01:01

conviction, because he wasn't

1:01:05

thinking about the – you know, it's like, wow, we can

1:01:07

win this one. We can win this, you know? But

1:01:09

I'm like, but you can't do anything about this

1:01:11

other one. And I just didn't feel like they

1:01:14

had a global strategy for this

1:01:16

case, and I think that they

1:01:18

could have had a better global strategy for

1:01:20

this case. I think it

1:01:22

was Dick who viewed this not

1:01:24

on an international level, but his

1:01:26

normal cases, where he's able to

1:01:29

be very aggressive

1:01:31

with the press and with the

1:01:33

courts, and he gets his

1:01:36

way of his

1:01:38

personality. And he didn't

1:01:41

realize that the whole world's watching, and

1:01:43

that he

1:01:45

started never really perceiving how the world

1:01:47

was not buying what he was selling.

1:01:49

And he never adapted,

1:01:52

and I think that was

1:01:54

the major thing. You know, Jim Griffin always

1:01:56

had to clean up after Dick, and Jim

1:01:59

had the heavy lead. lifting stuff and it was

1:02:01

tough for tough. You know, he did all the

1:02:03

legal stuff and you saw this week in the,

1:02:05

in the, uh, the status hearing,

1:02:07

Dick got up and spoke, but he had

1:02:10

nothing to say because he, he didn't even

1:02:12

remember the four things that justice toll wanted

1:02:14

to focus on. He didn't know the law

1:02:16

and he meandered along for about a minute

1:02:18

and said, well, I'm just going to turn

1:02:20

this over to Jim. And I

1:02:23

think he didn't realize how big

1:02:25

this case was so quickly. You

1:02:27

know what I'm saying? Well, you

1:02:29

pesky podcasters, you know, really, uh, made

1:02:32

people look at this. No, but it's true. The,

1:02:34

the media, I think, you

1:02:37

know, an unbiased look of the

1:02:39

case. Um, although yeah,

1:02:42

I would say that is something

1:02:45

really important in,

1:02:47

in a case like this. Um, and

1:02:50

then as you know, as we know, old

1:02:52

men can't learn new tricks, Mandy, we heard

1:02:54

that from you yesterday too, but yeah, you

1:02:56

have to, what a great line. And I

1:02:59

hope I'm getting to that old point. So

1:03:01

I don't know, although you're older than I

1:03:03

am, Eric, but, um, you have to have

1:03:05

some self-awareness and I don't

1:03:08

think that Dick has any self-awareness

1:03:11

at all. I really don't. Well,

1:03:14

on that, it was a, uh, an

1:03:16

amazing, uh, hour and 16 minutes. Uh,

1:03:19

we could talk to you forever, no. And

1:03:21

I'm, I'm sure we're going to have you back

1:03:24

for part two, because there is a part

1:03:26

of your life that I do want our listeners

1:03:28

to know about. And that is you

1:03:30

are a marathon or soon to be

1:03:33

an ultra marathoner and

1:03:35

what that kind of training takes and

1:03:37

how the time, you know, to run

1:03:39

50 miles or 40 miles to get

1:03:41

ready for the race. How do

1:03:43

you juggle it all? You know,

1:03:45

for me, the problem was how did I

1:03:47

juggle my practice with my family? And I

1:03:49

was not as good at it as I

1:03:51

should have been. And I want you to

1:03:54

talk to our listeners the next time we

1:03:56

have you on about the balance.

1:03:58

How do you find balance? life is

1:04:00

always about balance. And then,

1:04:02

you know, the little things like how long you've

1:04:04

been a Kojak, you know, you know,

1:04:07

how often do you shave your head

1:04:10

twice a week, three times a week,

1:04:12

those things, but you're a wonderful person.

1:04:14

You got a massively large heart. The

1:04:17

legal profession's lucky to have you. And certainly

1:04:19

Mandy and I and Liz and David are

1:04:21

lucky to have you as a friend and

1:04:23

supporter. So I just want to say thank

1:04:25

you so much for giving

1:04:27

us your time, your valuable time.

1:04:29

Mandy, you can finish up. Yes.

1:04:32

Thank you, Noah. And we're really excited. We're

1:04:34

going to have you back probably a few

1:04:36

more times because you have a lot of

1:04:38

interesting cases we need to

1:04:40

dig into. And we really appreciate you

1:04:43

and your dedication to justice

1:04:46

and your time. Well, thank you for

1:04:48

having me. It was a true honor.

1:04:50

So I appreciate you inviting me into

1:04:53

your home. And with that, we

1:04:56

say Cubs down. Cubs

1:05:05

down. Cup

1:05:09

of Justice is a LunaShark production

1:05:11

created by me, Mandy Matney, and

1:05:13

co-hosted by journalist Liz Farrell and

1:05:15

attorney Eric Bland. Learn more about

1:05:17

our mission and membership at lunasharkmedia.com.

1:05:21

Interruptions provided by Luna and Joe Pesky.