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start. Or tap the banner to

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go to monday.com. Hello

0:34

and happy Tuesday. Today we have

0:37

a really special episode for you.

0:39

It is an interview we've been wanting

0:41

to do for a long time, and

0:43

it was everything we hoped it would

0:45

be. Liz and Eric

0:48

sat down with crime scene expert

0:50

Dr. Kenny Kinsey last week to

0:52

talk about his role in helping

0:54

to convict Eliek Murdock for the

0:56

murders of Maggie and Paul. And

0:59

most importantly about Dr. Kinsey's

1:01

findings in the Stephen Smith

1:03

case. Dr. Kinsey is a

1:05

delight. It is no mistake that so

1:08

many people fell in love with him

1:10

during his testimony in the murder trial.

1:12

As you know, we have been able

1:14

to turn our focus to Stephen's case

1:17

on True Sunlight podcast. And what better

1:19

way to do that than to talk

1:21

to Dr. Kinsey who was hired by

1:24

Eric's law firm to retrace Stephen's steps

1:26

on the night he was killed. To

1:28

better understand why Stephen was on the

1:30

road that night, Dr. Kinsey looked at

1:33

potential alternate routes. Dr. Kinsey

1:35

looked at potential alternate routes Stephen might

1:37

have been able to take from his

1:39

car to the scene of his death

1:42

nearly three miles away. Dr.

1:44

Kinsey walked the route and found the

1:47

exact spot where Stephen's body was located.

1:49

That's when the pieces started to come

1:52

together for him and when he was

1:54

able to get definitive answers for a

1:56

few important questions investigators have had since

1:58

the summer of. 2015.

2:01

As we continue to look at Stephen's case,

2:05

we want to remind those with information about his death that it

2:08

is not too late to talk to SLED or to us. Anyone

2:11

who spoke with Stephen in the weeks leading

2:13

up to his death and anyone who saw

2:15

him in the weeks, days and hours leading

2:18

up to his death should email

2:20

tips at SLED.se.gov or fill

2:24

out the form at

2:26

answersforstephen.com. Every little

2:28

bit of information helps get Sandy

2:30

Smith and the Smith family closer

2:32

to finding out what happened on

2:34

the night Stephen was taken from

2:36

them. Let's get into it. Cups

2:40

up guys. Cups up. Cups up.

2:42

Hey there everybody, members,

2:44

Cup of Justice listeners and

2:46

True Sunlight listeners. This is

2:49

a banner day for the

2:51

production company. We are interviewing one of

2:54

my favorite people, Dr. Kenny Kenzie. Liz

2:56

and I are going to interview him.

2:59

I'm always fascinated, Liz, with people

3:02

that connect with other

3:04

people, especially in the litigation

3:07

business that I'm in, being a

3:09

lawyer and going to court and

3:11

seeing expert witnesses. Expert witnesses always

3:14

are very technical and they're

3:16

scientific and they pontificate

3:19

and they talk down to people.

3:22

I always find that jurors have a tendency

3:24

just to glass over when an expert gets

3:26

on. To hear Dr. Kenzie

3:28

talk to a jury, it's like

3:30

he's in your living room at

3:32

Thanksgiving and he's talking to you.

3:35

He just has this innate ability

3:37

to talk frankly,

3:40

talk in a way that people

3:42

understand what he's saying. I've often

3:44

been applauded for that.

3:46

Sometimes I don't talk like a lawyer.

3:48

Most of the times I don't, but

3:50

I'm not comparing myself to Dr. Kenzie.

3:52

He has the ability to talk with

3:54

people and not talk at people. I

3:56

said last night that he's a combination

3:58

of Mark Twain, Louis Grazard, you

4:01

know, your favorite best friend,

4:03

and he's just a great

4:05

guy. So with that said,

4:07

welcome. I hate to admit this, Eric, but

4:09

I don't know who Louis Grazard is. Who is

4:11

that? He is a

4:14

Southern humorist. You

4:16

know, he wrote a lot of

4:18

books in the eighties and

4:20

nineties and just, you

4:23

know, really a neat, neat author. Did

4:25

you ever read him, Kenny? And good morning, by the

4:27

way. Yes, sir. I did. He

4:30

referred to Clemson as Auburn

4:32

with a like. Oh, nice. So,

4:36

you know, we've been really anxious and

4:39

excited to have this interview with you.

4:41

You know, you've become a household name

4:43

ever since the MURDAL trial. But for

4:45

those of us in the industry, we've

4:48

known of you and I

4:50

assume right now you're busier than a one-armed

4:52

paper hanger. Well, Dr. Kenzie,

4:54

first, I worked for the Beaufort County

4:56

Sheriff's Office for a short period of

4:59

time, so I have to admit

5:01

when I saw that you were a chief

5:03

deputy, I got a

5:05

little nervous because, of course, the

5:07

chief deputy is, I think

5:10

to some degree, I mean, that's that is

5:12

the guy at the sheriff's office. The sheriff

5:14

is an elected position. The chief deputy is

5:16

the guy who's in charge of everything.

5:18

So I got a little nervous, frankly,

5:21

when I saw your name come up, because I,

5:23

when we were talking about the Murdoch case, because

5:26

I was thinking of my own chief

5:28

deputy and just like, oh, boy, like

5:31

a guy that people sort of fear

5:33

because that's the person you sit in front of

5:35

when, you know, it might be the last day

5:37

of your career, right? The

5:40

internal affairs investigation has come

5:42

in and now you're in front

5:44

of the chief deputy. So there's a little bit

5:46

of fear there. And I think a

5:48

lot of relief when I first

5:51

saw you on the stand. Actually, when

5:53

I first read your affidavit, a lot

5:55

of relief. You don't see many chief

5:58

deputies with PhDs anywhere, actually. in

6:00

the country, and least of all in South

6:02

Carolina, it's not something that you see a

6:04

lot calling a chief deputy in Orangeburg. Yeah,

6:07

so I knew we were in for something. So I

6:09

just want to say, you

6:12

gave me and I think a lot

6:14

of our listeners a lot of relief

6:16

when you got on that stand because

6:18

not just of how you related to

6:20

the jury, but you

6:22

brought a lot of sense to what I

6:25

think had been a lot of chaos up

6:27

into that point. When you

6:29

agreed to testify

6:31

in the trial, did you understand what

6:34

you were getting into at that point?

6:36

Did you understand like the magnitude of

6:38

it? Liz, I had no

6:40

idea. I really had

6:42

no idea until

6:46

it was two or three

6:48

days in. They didn't want me there the

6:50

first couple of days because for some reason

6:52

they thought that one of

6:54

the defense attorneys was really irritated by

6:56

the mention of my name. I don't

6:58

know why we've never had a fallen

7:00

out, but I was still

7:03

monitoring on the television

7:06

and emailing and doing research and that

7:08

kind of thing. You

7:10

cannot frame it

7:13

in your mind until you

7:15

see that carnival atmosphere.

7:18

And when I turned, and I've been

7:20

there many, many times, when I turned

7:23

to off of the main exit

7:25

and I got up close to the courthouse,

7:28

I said, oh my God, what

7:31

is going on? Because this was

7:33

a terrible, terrible tragedy, but

7:36

Eric's been doing this a

7:39

long, long time. We've seen

7:41

triple homicides, quadruple homicides. We've

7:44

seen other high profile cases, and

7:46

I'm sure you have also, Liz,

7:48

being in view for dealing

7:51

with their sheriff's office. And I

7:53

was like, what did I get myself into? And

7:56

I really did not quite understand the

7:59

magnitude of it. of it until

8:01

I was on site. And you can't describe

8:03

it. I mean, when you bring in food

8:05

trucks, because you don't

8:08

have enough cafes and restaurants close

8:10

enough to feed everyone, and

8:12

then seeing people lined up to the

8:15

street, and they've been there since the

8:17

early morning hours, it's just unbelievable. At

8:19

what point after you began testifying, did

8:21

you understand that you had become sort

8:24

of the sweetheart of the trial in

8:27

the Shri-Cribe community? Well,

8:29

I want to thank you both for the kind

8:31

words earlier. And I'm just a normal guy. And

8:36

the PhD, and to be perfectly honest, the

8:39

masters, it had been over 20 years

8:41

since my undergrad. And

8:44

they were really a joke. I just wanted to

8:46

see if I could get accepted at a university,

8:49

and I'm bullheaded enough. I've

8:52

got just enough Scotch-Irish in me that

8:54

I love to fight. But I

8:57

do it in a way you don't know you're fighting. And

9:01

it all comes from my grandmother. I was

9:03

the chief deputy that, and

9:05

you're correct on your assessment, the

9:08

chief deputy is basically the sheriff.

9:10

The sheriff still makes all

9:12

the calls. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm

9:14

not disrespecting any sheriff. But the

9:16

chief deputy does run the show,

9:18

usually. And I

9:21

have terminated employees, and

9:25

they apologize to me. And

9:27

that's true. And if

9:29

they get their life in order or

9:31

whatever they did wasn't a terminal violation

9:34

as far as law enforcement's

9:36

concerned, many times I'd hire them back.

9:40

And my door was always open. I

9:43

was just a different kind of chief deputy,

9:45

I believe. What makes you so humble and

9:47

so gracious and so full of grace? I

9:49

mean, you use a lot of self-deprecating

9:52

humor to disarm

9:54

people. And I think

9:56

it's genuine, but I also think

9:59

you use... it to your advantage because

10:01

it lets people let their guard down and

10:03

you have the ability to slice

10:06

people up and they don't even know it's

10:08

happening. Like you just said,

10:10

people that you terminate apologize to you.

10:13

How did you learn this in

10:16

a expert witness standpoint? Because

10:19

I think it's genuine. I don't think it's an

10:21

act. I think your whole life is like

10:23

this. The appreciation, E.B.,

10:25

is genuine. I

10:28

grew up by simple means. My mother

10:30

and father were both first responders. My

10:32

dad began as

10:34

a full-time firefighter my whole life.

10:37

And I can remember when there were 24 hours on, 24 hours

10:39

off. So I only got

10:41

to see my dad take school away

10:44

less than half of the time. And

10:46

then my mother ended up, you know, and

10:48

we were, we had

10:50

very little, but we had

10:53

enough. I've

10:55

just always been incredibly thankful

10:58

for anything. I don't

11:02

know if it's because of our upbringing.

11:04

We didn't know. We didn't have a

11:06

lot. We, it seemed like we had

11:08

plenty, but looking back on it and

11:10

I just, like all parents,

11:12

like all families, you want

11:15

to do better for your family. And

11:18

my appreciation is genuine. If

11:21

anyone would ever give

11:23

me something. Look, I appreciate my

11:25

haters and I read some of

11:28

the social media and all

11:30

three of us can agree that there are some folks

11:32

out there that are just mean and cool. I

11:36

appreciate that because they take their

11:38

time. I affect

11:40

them so much or something I have

11:42

done affects them so much that

11:45

they take their time from their

11:47

day to make a

11:49

nasty comment. That means

11:51

you're having an effect on people and

11:53

just like you, E.B. Liz. Yeah, I

11:55

learned. I learned from that. Yes, sir.

11:58

Absolutely. I learned from that. Absolutely. So

12:01

I believe as a civilization,

12:04

we have many more similarities than

12:06

we do differences. And

12:09

I'm just, I'm conservative, but

12:12

I am a live and let live kind of guy. And

12:15

you can do your thing. And I think I told you

12:17

in a text thread, I may

12:19

not agree with it. And I might even

12:22

laugh internally, but I'm not going to try

12:24

to embarrass you because your beliefs are different

12:26

than mine. And I just

12:28

think this rock we're on is big enough. We're only

12:30

going to be here a little while. It is

12:33

big enough for us to have, you

12:35

know, agree to disagree without

12:38

all the negativity. And I

12:40

just, I learned a long

12:42

time ago, I'd rather use my efforts to

12:44

be positive than negative. I wish I'd have

12:47

known that my whole career, because

12:49

I was anti everything in the

12:51

beginning. I would spar with

12:54

attorneys and they

12:56

were always violent cases. And I guess

12:58

I was putting my

13:00

performance or my activities

13:03

ahead of the victim. And it

13:06

was when at any cost. And

13:09

when you get to a point where you realize,

13:11

wait a minute, this thing's bigger than me, things

13:15

get better for you. And then when you realize

13:17

if I am nice, he

13:19

can cut me a couple of times with

13:21

a question, but he can't beat me up

13:24

in front of that jury if I'm nice.

13:27

And it worked and it's

13:29

evolved over 20 some odd years. And,

13:32

you know, I'm just fortunate. I was in

13:35

the right spot at the right time for

13:37

Murdoch and I can relate to

13:39

the jury. And I've always

13:41

given credit. I feel the same

13:43

way. I don't disparage anyone, E.B.

13:46

If I didn't disparage

13:48

two of those attorneys on the

13:50

defense side, it's hard to get me

13:53

to say something publicly bad about anyone. And

13:55

I just think we all could be a

13:57

little bit better at that. I

13:59

see your truth. trajectory, similar to mine

14:01

and Ronnie's. And it was like

14:04

a collision course that our careers were

14:06

going to intersect. You with me and

14:09

us with Myrtle, I think everything that

14:11

we've done over our career put

14:14

all of us in a position,

14:16

Liz and Mandy and their journalistic

14:18

background. Everybody, it was

14:20

the perfect storm of everybody coming

14:23

together at that intersection, like

14:25

in, you know, up north Cumberland, Maryland,

14:27

in Virginia and Pennsylvania and Kentucky all

14:30

border each other. I think it was

14:32

the perfect intersection for all these different

14:34

personalities with everybody from a background, including

14:37

Harputin and Judge Newman and all.

14:40

You couldn't, it's like the perfect,

14:42

it's like mash or

14:44

Cheers or Seinfeld. The cast

14:47

was perfect. I don't think there was

14:49

one person that wasn't right for the

14:51

cast of what happened. And, uh, you

14:54

know, there were a lot of expert witnesses in

14:56

the trial and, you know, but for the guy

14:58

that, you know, checks the pulse and

15:00

the temperature under the armpit, everybody

15:03

else has been forgotten except you.

15:06

And, uh, the hallmark of

15:08

an expert is objectivity and

15:11

to be able to call it as you see

15:13

it, not advocate for one side or the other,

15:15

no friends to reward enemies to punish, and you

15:18

seem to try to shoot it

15:20

straight down the middle. You know, you took

15:23

on the fact that it wasn't a five

15:25

foot two shooter and you

15:27

explained how the trajectory of

15:29

bullets. And so I'm, I'm

15:31

interested in, obviously I don't want to monopolize

15:34

this one here from Liz, but I'm interested

15:36

when you became an expert witness, how you

15:38

attack a case, say, you know, do

15:40

you ever tell the side that hires you

15:42

or consults like, look, I can't give you

15:45

the opinion that you want. E.B. That has

15:47

happened. Uh, I had a young

15:49

man who died a very

15:51

violent death and it was in Buffalo, New

15:53

York. And this is when

15:55

I learned my lesson and, and you know, you and I

15:58

have worked on some stuff and I'm so. appreciative

16:00

of that, but I learned

16:02

you always work for an

16:04

attorney because I got

16:07

the sad sob story from the mother

16:09

and my heart just reached out, you

16:11

know, was ripped out. And I told

16:13

her, I said, can you handle the

16:16

truth? Because I'm going to give

16:18

it to you just like

16:20

I see it. And if I'm wrong,

16:22

I'm just wrong. It's not intentional. It's

16:24

not because you're paying me. She

16:26

said, oh, yeah, well, we, you

16:28

know, we uncovered some videos that

16:30

actually caught the whole incident. And,

16:34

oh, my God, I, I finally

16:36

had to block her number. I mean, I was,

16:39

she was pretty mean. And she wasn't that

16:42

way in the beginning, but I held my

16:44

ground. I told her, and I also had

16:46

a couple use of force cases where

16:49

I'd go to Columbia and I say, look, you

16:51

know, this other one, you were okay, but here,

16:53

I don't believe you have a case. Now, if

16:55

you want me to help mitigate it, I'm

16:58

your, I'm your guy, but I think you

17:00

need to let this one go. And for

17:03

the most part, my clients have been

17:05

understanding and they've been good about it.

17:07

So I have

17:09

been treated as

17:12

good or better by

17:14

defense attorneys and civil attorneys than I

17:16

have been by prosecutors. And I really

17:18

didn't expect that. I didn't think it

17:20

would be that way. I started

17:23

working civil cases in 2019. I started

17:25

dabbling, you know, dipping my toe in

17:28

the water a little bit. And

17:30

I was pretty, pretty

17:33

good with the idea that I'd work two

17:35

or three cases a year just to supplement

17:37

my retirement. And it just didn't turn

17:39

out that way. God has a

17:41

way of just reaching out. And I said,

17:43

this, he hits you with something hard and

17:45

says, it's not going to be that way.

17:48

And I truly, truly, not that I'm

17:51

a prophet or anything, but I

17:54

truly believe God reached out and

17:57

made this happen for me for a

17:59

reason. And when

18:01

it stops happening, I'm okay

18:03

with it. I'm good.

18:06

You know, I've made wise investments. I

18:09

have a retirement coming in. I'm okay. So

18:12

I think something you touched on there is something

18:14

that we have to deal with in journalism, too,

18:16

which is just, you know, you sort of go

18:18

into the story or maybe

18:20

a situation wanting to help the

18:23

person who maybe hasn't gotten answers

18:25

up until this point, right? And

18:29

you feel you take it on sort of

18:31

as a personal, even though you're supposed to,

18:33

you know, kind of leave that distance between

18:35

you and that which you're writing about. For

18:38

you, what I'm interested in

18:41

hearing is just because

18:44

you have experience as chief

18:46

of staff, as chief deputy, you

18:48

understand the way a chain of command

18:51

works. You understand the way investigations

18:54

work. When you, as

18:56

an expert now or somebody that's called in

18:58

to look at cases that have

19:00

already been investigated by other

19:03

agencies or other law

19:05

enforcement or other investigators, maybe even in some

19:07

of the agencies you've worked for, in other

19:09

experts, do you – what are

19:12

some of the problems that you see? Because I

19:14

think we take on that personal – that

19:16

feeling of person wanting to help these people

19:19

because they haven't gotten answers. From my perspective,

19:21

for instance, I see a lot

19:23

of customer service problems in policing. I know

19:25

that's not something that you necessarily talk about

19:28

when you think about policing, but customer service in

19:30

the way of you have these cold cases where

19:33

families haven't heard from

19:35

the investigator in a long time. They don't

19:37

touch base. They don't take the phone calls.

19:39

They don't treat the

19:42

family. Number one complaint, Liz. Yeah. That

19:45

is the number one

19:47

complaint I fielded daily. My

19:50

methodology is a little bit different than

19:53

a lot of investigators. Number one, I

19:55

split it up in small steps. You

19:58

know, if I've got – a

20:00

scene involving a location and then

20:02

a vehicle and then a body

20:05

dump. I cut them in

20:07

thirds and I work one piece at

20:10

a time. I verify

20:12

because look, law enforcement

20:14

gets a lot of it right. Unfortunately,

20:17

some of the things they do and

20:20

just generally, here are

20:22

the complaints I would have and here are the

20:24

complaints I would have with with my guys because

20:26

I was very hands-on. We

20:29

were a medium-sized law enforcement agency but

20:31

we were the second largest county for

20:33

landmass in the state. It is over

20:35

one hour from the Aiken County line

20:38

to cross Utahville area. I

20:40

would go to my guys and I'm like,

20:42

you cannot close a burglary.

20:46

All leads exhausted if you haven't

20:48

talked to the neighbor here, here,

20:51

and the property that

20:53

abuts the back of the home. It's

20:56

just little stuff. When I started

20:58

in law enforcement in the early 90s, if

21:01

I was on a scene with E.B.

21:03

and with U.Liz and we all did

21:05

something different, everyone would

21:07

do a supplemental and then the

21:10

lead officer would take all that

21:12

information and put it together. Well,

21:15

now, and this is a problem

21:17

nationwide, one officer will

21:19

list everybody on the scene in

21:22

their supplemental. That way,

21:25

details are lost and sometimes it's

21:27

the details. I do

21:29

not like to look at the photos

21:31

first from the agency. I like to

21:34

go to the location if possible and

21:37

I like to come from every different

21:39

angle. I want to know if I

21:41

can figure out what that victim went

21:43

through and then I

21:45

try to get in the suspect's mind. My

21:47

methodology is just a little bit yanked up

21:49

but that's the way I like to do it.

21:51

Then E.B. can attest

21:53

to this later on

21:56

when I go through those photos. It

21:58

could be a little bit more of a And

22:01

I can get three or four photos sometimes,

22:03

and I'm like, look, this is what I

22:05

said happened. Or I might say,

22:07

look, I have just disproved my theory. Then,

22:11

when it's all said and done, and no

22:14

investigation is perfect, no investigator

22:16

is perfect, then

22:19

you start looking at steps that were missed.

22:22

And is this reasonable? Would a

22:24

reasonable investigator do this? Would a

22:26

reasonable investigator miss that? Was

22:28

it reasonable not to interview this person? And

22:32

you can use that, and in the civil world,

22:34

that is gold. That is gold.

22:37

And then the last thing I do, I look at

22:39

policies, especially in a

22:41

civil case. I will look at policies.

22:44

Did they violate their own policies? And

22:46

then it's putting it all together in a

22:49

way, like E.B. said, that someone

22:51

may be without the

22:53

legal knowledge that an attorney would

22:55

have or that even a

22:57

seasoned law enforcement officer would have. Can

23:00

they read that report and understand what you're saying?

23:04

And it's worked, but it didn't always

23:06

start that way. It had to evolve

23:08

because I was defiant as, you know,

23:10

you probably wouldn't have liked me 25

23:12

years ago. What

23:14

you do, Kenny, which is effective, is

23:17

you don't get in a battle with

23:19

the attorney that's questioning you. Most experts

23:22

like to outmaneuver an attorney and show

23:24

how smart they are and how wrong

23:26

the attorney is. You

23:28

just view the attorney as somebody that's in

23:31

the room. You're connecting with the jury. I

23:33

view what you do is teaching to

23:36

the jury in a

23:38

way that you do when you teach fellow

23:40

officers. And it's making

23:42

that connection that first they have to trust

23:45

you. They have to say, okay, this is

23:47

a person I can trust. And

23:49

if they're willing to trust you, then they open

23:51

up their minds and their hearts and

23:53

they listen to you. I just saw, you

23:56

know, when you were being questioned by

23:58

the attorneys, it was interesting. You

24:01

answered the questions. You didn't get

24:03

into ad hominem attacks, even though

24:05

you were maybe being denigrated in

24:08

a way by the person that

24:10

was questioning you. It's

24:12

more of you're connecting with the jury, and

24:15

I found it fascinating to

24:17

watch how you maneuver in a courtroom. I want

24:19

to hear more, though, why we wouldn't like you.

24:23

When I started, it was in a narcotics

24:25

role, and a

24:28

flower white kid in

24:31

Orangeburg had a hard time

24:33

working. You had to work behind the

24:35

scenes to work narcotics in the early 90s in Orangeburg,

24:38

and I wasn't going to make a

24:40

living jumping through doors. I mean, I

24:42

do have a tactical background, and I

24:44

enjoyed that part of the job. But

24:47

when you get north of 50, you

24:49

realize that, you know, rappelling and

24:52

running that hard and knocking down

24:54

doors, your body just takes longer

24:57

to heal. So I

24:59

was real fortunate that I realized that at

25:01

an early age. No,

25:04

I was anti-everything, Liz. I mean, I

25:06

wasn't a bad person. I was just

25:08

anti-everything. Everything you

25:10

told me, I would try to prove it

25:12

wrong, and I wouldn't take it

25:14

on face value. I'm still a little like that

25:17

when it comes to the job, but

25:19

not the personal aspect. And

25:21

I didn't trust many people. I didn't

25:23

make a lot of friends at first

25:25

in law enforcement. I

25:27

was completely concentrating on

25:30

getting the job done. And it's

25:32

a blend. You've got to figure out that

25:34

blend. I never wanted rank.

25:37

I absolutely never cared

25:39

about rank, and probably still don't a

25:41

lot. But the only good thing about

25:43

rank is the paycheck is a little

25:46

bit more. But I

25:48

never wanted to make decisions for other people,

25:50

although I had to do it. And

25:53

that's one reason I feel so

25:55

blessed now. I'm making decisions for

25:57

me, and through my life. client

26:01

and it just works out perfectly. And

26:05

we'll be right back. I'm

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retreat. Going

27:15

back to the question asked before because

27:17

I think from my perspective as an

27:19

outsider in law enforcement, I

27:21

see these vacuums filling themselves. I see

27:23

people coming up with their own theories

27:25

about what happened especially when it comes

27:27

to the Murdock case, especially when it

27:29

comes to Stephen Smith's case. You

27:32

see a lot online in particular because so

27:34

much has been released about the case of

27:37

people filling in the blanks and there

27:39

are a lot of blanks in

27:41

Stephen Smith's case in particular. But as

27:44

law enforcement agencies, where

27:46

is that improvement factor? Like where does that

27:48

come into play where maybe almost

27:51

universally across the board where

27:53

policing can be better when

27:55

it comes to bridging that gap between the victims

27:58

and you know, that crime

28:00

and getting them justice. Whoa, this

28:02

one's gonna be a heavy hit here now,

28:05

I'm telling you, because a lot of people

28:07

do not wanna realize this and do not

28:09

wanna admit it. We've done

28:11

some stupid things in law enforcement.

28:15

Whoever thought we'd see a man shot

28:17

in the back in South Carolina running

28:19

away, whoever thought

28:21

we would see a man

28:23

choke to death on worldwide

28:25

television, we have

28:28

done stupid, stupid things.

28:31

But just a small portion of us, and

28:34

unfortunately the entire profession

28:38

receives this black eye. There,

28:41

I know the

28:43

overwhelming majority of law enforcement

28:45

are good folks. I

28:47

mean, there's 700,000 men and

28:49

women in this country that put that badging

28:52

gun on every day who have an average

28:54

of 10 to 20 citizen contacts every day

28:56

that do not in that way. But

28:59

because of a small group, and

29:01

look, I understand the United States of

29:03

America, you gotta write the protest. I

29:06

understand that. I will join you. If

29:08

we have the same goals, I will

29:10

join your protest. But

29:12

they really, the professions really,

29:14

really hurt with the defund

29:16

the police movement. I

29:19

don't know of an agency that's not, don't

29:21

have a 20% deficit now. The

29:24

young kids do not want to do this.

29:27

They're not standing in line. They want a

29:30

401k and a death job. And if you

29:32

do hire them, they wanna be a

29:34

captain in eight weeks. It's

29:37

not gonna survive if somebody doesn't

29:40

figure out the answer. But we

29:42

had a part in messing that up. Now

29:45

roll over to my end, as

29:47

an old timer, we have

29:49

in the interest of making

29:52

law enforcement better, and

29:54

more technical, and

29:56

more accountable. We

29:59

have the... opposite of what I

30:01

am, we didn't bring it down. We're

30:04

trying to take it up. And you've

30:06

only got a handful of

30:09

experts. When you're talking about experts, you've

30:11

got only a handful that

30:14

are there in the mix for all

30:16

of the big cases. And

30:18

they come up with techniques and that kind

30:20

of thing to try and make it tougher.

30:23

You got to make it simpler. You got

30:25

to make it where a common person can

30:27

understand it. You don't need

30:29

some of these organizations in the

30:31

interest of accountability. What are they

30:34

doing? If every

30:36

agency should be accountable, then

30:38

why do you charge them tens

30:40

of thousands of dollars to

30:43

get them up to speed to be

30:45

accountable? I mean, I believe it's a

30:47

money grab. And I think a

30:50

lot of organizations and a lot of theories,

30:53

it's always tied to a checkbook. And

30:56

if we want law enforcement to be more

30:58

accountable, we got to take some stuff off

31:00

of them too. You can't

31:02

be marriage counselors. You can't

31:04

be your guidance counselors. You

31:06

can't divorce people. Everything's

31:09

been put on the mental health,

31:11

the big mental health crisis in

31:13

this country. You know, unfortunately,

31:16

law enforcement is the first contact.

31:18

And many times they are required

31:21

to do certain steps in the mental

31:23

health process, but it shouldn't

31:26

be that way. And so we

31:28

need to take some things off of them. We

31:30

need to hold them accountable for some things,

31:33

but we don't need to make it more

31:35

technical. We need to make it more accountable,

31:37

but we have to bring it down a

31:40

little bit. If you notice some

31:42

of these experts, they have

31:44

the monopoly on their area.

31:47

And if you get on any of the

31:49

social platforms, you see where they want to

31:51

make it tougher and tougher and tougher. Look,

31:54

fingerprints, rich detail has been the

31:56

same for thousands of years.

32:00

Footwear, you know, it's not that different than it

32:02

was in the 70s. Blood

32:04

stain, no one has ever come up

32:06

with, you know, it

32:09

pops in their head that blood stains have

32:11

changed directionality. But what are they doing? They

32:13

want to make it tougher and tougher and

32:15

tougher because that keeps their piece of the

32:17

pie. I want to share

32:19

it with everyone. If someone catches me on

32:21

the street and says, tell me a little

32:23

bit about blood spatter, I'll

32:25

take them to the side and I'll share with them what I

32:27

have. And I believe that's the only way

32:30

to do it, to do it with character and

32:32

to try and make things better. You

32:35

know, when you, you grabbed the jury

32:37

in the Murdock case, when you

32:39

said you were getting paid $100 an hour, I

32:41

mean, everybody just, their chins

32:43

hit the floor because, you know, you had

32:45

all these $500 an hour

32:48

and $650, $750 an hour experts and

32:50

Harputin was whining to Judge Newman. Can we

32:53

get to him today? I'm paying them $750

32:55

an hour and if you don't get to

32:57

him today, I got to pay him all

32:59

weekend and you said, I'm, you

33:01

know, getting a hundred hours an hour. And

33:04

you, you just made a statement which says

33:06

so much about your personality, which is the

33:09

first thing out of your mouth was law enforcement

33:11

does so much good. Well, most

33:13

people, most defense attorneys, Harputin included,

33:15

every chance he gets, denigrates law

33:17

enforcement. He did it at the

33:19

hearing for a motion for a

33:21

new trial where he said, I

33:23

don't want sled driving the jurors

33:25

because, you know, they're not, they're

33:27

going to influence the jurors or

33:29

they're going to try to change

33:32

the, what they're going to say.

33:34

He, he immediately attacked law enforcement.

33:37

And I found what you just said, your

33:39

first statement out of your mouth was

33:41

law enforcement does so much good. And

33:43

it is so true. There's always a

33:46

few bad eggs that paint

33:48

that broad brush. And, you

33:50

know, I don't see you as a guy that's doing

33:53

this solely for the money. I probably

33:55

do think that you're charging more than $100 an hour

33:57

now as you should because you were. woefully

34:00

underpaid in the Murdock

34:02

case. I mean, it totally disarmed the

34:04

entire courtroom. Do you remember that, Liz?

34:07

I do. I do. It's yeah, it,

34:10

there was a drastic difference too also in

34:12

what you got for your money. So I

34:14

think that that, that was probably what stood

34:16

out to me more. Well,

34:19

you know, the funny thing about it

34:21

is when Creighton called

34:23

me, I was going to do it

34:25

free. And, you

34:27

know, just as a favor to the AG's

34:29

office, I was just supposed to look at

34:32

some evidence and it

34:34

just evolved. And when I said a

34:36

hundred dollars, I meant $100. I

34:41

really didn't even mean a hundred dollars an hour. And,

34:44

you know, he said, no, no, no, we got to pay you. I

34:47

was like, okay, I'll give you what I charge,

34:49

you know, civil attorneys to work, civil cases, a

34:51

hundred dollars an hour. Which is

34:54

way too cheap. Yes, sir. I'm telling you

34:56

from somebody that pays experts

34:58

and law enforcement officers, you

35:01

are woefully under the market average, which tells

35:04

me that, you know, you're, you're a guy

35:06

that's not doing it for commerce, but you

35:08

want to, you know, do

35:10

it because you have a, you're purpose

35:13

driven. And I love, I love purpose

35:15

driven people. I mean, you know, we're

35:17

all purpose driven. I have, I have

35:19

increased that considerably. It has

35:22

increased considerably E.B. But a

35:24

good attorney friend of mine told me

35:27

that if no one ever balk at

35:29

your fee, then you're still not

35:31

high enough. I said, well, I'm okay right

35:33

now. You know, we'll, we just want to

35:35

make a living and, you know, do

35:38

a decent job. And I worry about that part later.

35:40

That said, do you still hold the

35:43

opinion that Sled got the right guy

35:45

in Alec Murdoch? Absolutely.

35:47

But you don't live, I never

35:49

publicly ever gave

35:51

an opinion. If you

35:53

look back, I never gave an opinion in

35:56

August at crime con. I was asked, what

35:59

do you. you think? And I've always said, you

36:01

know, that's the jury's decision. And ultimately it

36:04

is. But when I saw the

36:06

jury getting hammered over

36:08

something that they had no control over, have

36:11

several clients who were representing those

36:13

jurors, and I know these people

36:15

and I know their character. I

36:18

got friends that were working the security of

36:20

the jury, friends now, I didn't know them

36:22

at the time. I had to

36:25

come out, I said, look, that's the jury's decision. And

36:27

I'm a respect whatever they say, but I think they

36:29

got it right. And I know

36:31

in my heart, there's certain pieces of evidence

36:33

that you can't speak on and certain things

36:35

that didn't come in. I know they got

36:38

it right, but I've been shouted

36:40

down in restaurants, you know, I'm sitting there with

36:42

a hoodie on, hoping nobody

36:44

recognizes me. And, you know, I had a

36:46

16 year old screaming across

36:48

the restaurant. I got it wrong. I've

36:51

had it, I can't

36:53

this past weekend, had one of the guests

36:56

and friend of a friend, he didn't say

36:58

it to me, but as soon as I

37:00

walked off off, he don't have a clue

37:02

what happened. And I just asked these guys,

37:04

I'm like, what evidence did you look at?

37:06

Other than the theory, fathers

37:09

don't do that. Well, I can give you

37:11

a half dozen incidents where fathers do it,

37:13

mothers do it. You know, I've seen

37:15

a child, a newborn killed, if

37:18

a child, the mother, the

37:21

father, you know, over

37:23

postpartum depression and then took her own

37:26

life. I've seen it. And people say

37:28

it doesn't happen or this

37:30

can happen. Pick up a

37:32

newspaper, it happens every single day.

37:35

That is wild. I'm really actually surprised

37:37

to hear that that happens to you,

37:40

even though, you know, you can see sort of the criticism

37:42

online about, you know, just what you just

37:45

said that fathers don't do this, but you

37:47

saw the evidence. And like you said, there's

37:49

evidence that didn't even get presented in trial.

37:52

And before you even testified,

37:55

or rather, you know, before the trial really

37:57

even started, Dick and Jim were trying

37:59

to get you removed. or at least parts of

38:01

your testimony removed. They didn't want you to

38:03

talk about the blood spatter on the shirt.

38:05

You know, and you had briefly mentioned in

38:07

the trial that the mark on Maggie's leg

38:09

that looked like, you know, belonged to a

38:11

golf cart tire, which I was very pleased

38:14

when you brought that up because it

38:16

sort of made it a better picture in, I

38:18

think, all of our minds of what happened and

38:20

kind of made it more understandable,

38:23

I think. I want to

38:25

just say something in response

38:27

to what Dr. Kinsey said and

38:29

kind of educate the audience a little

38:31

bit. We used to have a test

38:33

called the Fry Test for expert witnesses,

38:36

which the experts, if

38:38

they regularly practiced in that area

38:40

or had some

38:42

experience in it, they could render

38:45

an opinion on an ultimate fact

38:47

under the rules of evidence. And

38:51

Dr. Kinsey is right that certain

38:53

experts have tried to restrict the

38:55

ability of people like Dr. Kinsey

38:57

commenting on blood spatter evidence

39:00

or opining on a golf

39:02

cart tire mark on a leg. And

39:05

so the Supreme Court came up

39:07

with the Kumo Tire Case. And what the

39:09

Kumo Tire Case now says is an

39:11

expert can only testify if

39:13

what he's testifying to is

39:16

subject to peer review. And

39:19

it's subject to being testified

39:21

to by this expert. And

39:23

it's been under rigorous strain

39:26

by other experts. And you're criticizing

39:29

or supporting it. And

39:31

what it has done is it's created a

39:33

cottage industry for experts to

39:35

be specific only on blood spatter

39:37

or be specific only on handwriting

39:39

or being specific only on fingerprinting.

39:41

But you have a guy like

39:43

Dr. Kinsey, who is a generalist

39:45

in a way because he has

39:48

such broad-based experience of being a

39:50

law enforcement officer for over 25

39:52

years that he does have fingerprint

39:54

knowledge, that he does have blood

39:56

spatter knowledge, that he does seen

39:58

so many tire tracks. He has

40:00

seen the effect of, you know,

40:02

precipitation on what it does to

40:04

a footprint. And

40:06

he is entirely correct that defense

40:09

attorneys or attorneys try to restrict

40:11

every chance they get when an

40:13

expert like Dr. Kinsey gets on stand

40:16

to say, you can't testify to that,

40:18

or you can't testify to that. And

40:20

that has been the effect of that Kumo tire

40:22

case. Great history, E.B.

40:24

I'm proud of you. Yeah,

40:27

right. With

40:30

the blood spatter, the interesting thing was just

40:32

whether, you know, we were all wondering whether

40:34

that would even get introduced. And obviously the

40:36

prosecution decided not to bring it up at

40:38

all. But I think it was

40:40

always looming in the background as you

40:42

learned more about Alex outfit changes that

40:45

night and what he was wearing and

40:47

where that high impact velocity

40:49

spatter, you know, potential,

40:51

I guess we could call it where it

40:54

was located toward the, I would say the

40:56

top third of his shirt. And maybe

40:58

one could imagine, you know, if he had an overshirt

41:00

on, maybe that's where that appeared.

41:02

Well, Liz, I never said, I

41:04

never said it was high velocity.

41:07

No, you said you agreed with

41:09

the, I said it appears to

41:11

be high velocity, but I cannot

41:13

reach the same conclusion. Right. And

41:16

I had reasoning behind that. And it was four or

41:18

five different things. I said it appears. But they do

41:20

not want you to say that. They

41:23

didn't know. Well, you don't want my report.

41:25

You don't want my report seen. So you

41:27

attach it to a motion and send it

41:29

out worldwide. You know, I'm

41:31

not an attorney, but that, that,

41:34

that's kind of counterproductive to

41:36

me. But I believe it

41:38

would have worked to their favor if

41:40

they would have brought that report in. But

41:43

it's how I got here. So I'm very

41:45

appreciative of it. That is very interesting. We have

41:47

so much more to talk to you about, but first we're

41:49

going to take a quick commercial break. When

42:01

you need Auto Parts, O'ReillyAuto.com is

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just a click away. Order online and

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pick up at your local store. Visit

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O'ReillyAuto.com. We

42:21

want to turn to Stephen Smith,

42:24

who should be in

42:26

the spotlight now, should have the

42:28

attention of Sled. We want

42:30

to turn to Stephen in this discussion

42:33

because you have looked into his case and

42:36

Liz, take it from here. Well, first,

42:38

tell us what you were hired to do. I

42:41

think that that would help people online

42:44

to know that. I

42:47

was retained to look at

42:49

Stephen's case and look

42:51

at every aspect. But

42:53

mostly the physical evidence

42:56

from the scene, what's there, what isn't

42:58

there, try to confirm

43:00

anything I could confirm. And

43:03

like I mentioned earlier, my client

43:07

gave me all the evidence that

43:09

he had. I didn't

43:11

open the photos. And I can remember I went

43:13

down and worked a couple days down

43:16

in that area. And I just walked. I

43:18

mean, I walked till this old fat man

43:20

was tired. And I

43:22

excluded some areas. I included some areas.

43:24

I actually talked with some people that

43:27

had never been interviewed. And

43:30

I come back and my family was traveling.

43:32

I think it was Easter Sunday. My family

43:34

was traveling. And I was

43:36

here alone. And I said, I'm going to look at

43:38

these photographs. And

43:40

when I opened the photographs within

43:42

five photos, I knew the answer.

43:45

It was beyond a doubt. I

43:50

knew the answer. And

43:52

I actually, I think I called you, E.B., or might

43:54

have texted you, waited a couple days. And

43:57

I said, look, some people got this wrong. They

43:59

got this wrong. And I I, you

44:01

know, What? Really happened

44:03

and then later on some other

44:05

experts that we're. All Mckay

44:08

saw They got all of our

44:10

results and I understand they're pretty

44:12

similar and are. In

44:14

result so ah ha feel

44:16

real good that. We.

44:18

Got that one right! For. You give

44:20

your opinion. You use the word you excluded.

44:22

Some things are you Are you referring to.

44:25

That. There were you know I

44:27

may be told me about I

44:29

fencing or Greeks for. You

44:32

know Cpr to Worth of Picker

44:34

Bush's Tell me about Exclusion Him:

44:36

Woody Meaning thought is that the

44:38

pair said Steven could not have

44:40

taken. From. The car to were

44:42

lesser if you are okay explained if

44:44

you go in the would wooded area.

44:47

And I don't know if anyone be the if it wasn't

44:49

a pair of the if they did. Ah,

44:51

Fifty or sixty yards in that

44:53

wooded area was on a foot

44:55

stainless steel thing. It's obvious the

44:58

hogs a really really bad that

45:00

area. And. It completely incompetent

45:02

as a hunting lodge. See.

45:05

The didn't go over that fence but if

45:07

he would have got to it he would

45:10

have been caught up. Extremely bad be I

45:12

got caught up and I had a long

45:14

trousers and our boots I did not have

45:16

must make boots. I wish I would have.

45:19

Bought. All ages Vicious. It was

45:21

vicious getting in these woods, so

45:23

that puts me in one direction.

45:26

It. Was only two options. That. Direction

45:28

being the road. Yes, or the highways, but

45:30

it was only two options. There's a dirt

45:33

road. And sorry I can't remember the name

45:35

of the road. Now you be. I didn't have the

45:37

report in front of me. But. Once

45:39

you pass that obvious.

45:42

There's. A dirt road that Stephen could

45:44

have went right. Or. He could have

45:46

remained on the paved road. Where. The

45:48

dirt road was. A half

45:50

mile father. Of longer

45:52

trio. And completely dark. A

45:55

stay down there. my there's no

45:57

ambient light. There's. No our

45:59

ports. that you can see in a distance.

46:02

So that helped me exclude that. Plus, if

46:04

he would have popped out at

46:06

the location, he would have been much

46:08

farther down the road than

46:10

where they found Steven. So

46:13

I was able to eliminate that. Most

46:16

of his path was on the paved road. Now

46:18

I'm not saying he didn't cut corners, but

46:21

most of his path was on the paved road

46:24

and I feel pretty confident to that. And

46:27

then certainly with the way

46:29

Steven perished, and

46:31

then he was moved. He

46:34

was killed somewhere else and then moved

46:36

here. I was able to eliminate that

46:39

to a degree of scientific certainty pretty

46:41

easily. Can we explain to people why

46:44

you looked in the woods and why

46:46

you looked to see what paths

46:48

he could take from the car? Like

46:50

explain what, because that is- Yes ma'am, because

46:53

some people were saying, family members

46:56

were saying, Steven wouldn't have walked the

46:58

highway. He would have went through the

47:00

woods. He would have hid from

47:03

any perpetrators. And then

47:05

we had the, and look, there was

47:07

everyone for nine

47:09

years or eight years, because this

47:11

case wasn't given the attention that

47:14

it should have been given. I've

47:18

said it from the start, this

47:20

family deserved answers. And you

47:22

had everyone adding some of

47:25

the tips. You know, some

47:27

of the tips were, I was driving through

47:29

on my way to California and

47:31

I saw so and so and so eight years

47:33

ago. Really, you

47:36

remember those details from eight years

47:38

ago, but you can't discount those.

47:40

You have to follow up on

47:43

every lead. And this

47:45

case was thrown off from the

47:47

beginning, probably by the

47:49

coroner, believing that

47:51

it was a gunshot wound involved, highway

47:54

patrol packs up their stuff and

47:57

they go, because they don't work that kind

47:59

of incident. Then

48:01

when the pathologist says you got X,

48:03

Y, and Z, somebody's

48:06

having a bad day. You

48:08

remember some negative comments. What

48:10

should have happened? And look, I've

48:12

done over 250 autopsies. It's

48:15

not pretty, but it's important. What

48:17

should happen? And I've disagreed with

48:19

a pathologist before, even though they're

48:21

responsible for determining what happened.

48:24

Wait a minute. Let me calm myself.

48:27

Let me go back in here and

48:29

talk to this pathologist and see if

48:31

we can come to an understanding. That

48:34

didn't happen here. Whatever tempers on

48:36

one side or the other, that

48:38

threw it off. So now

48:40

you've got the coroner and highway

48:43

patrol leaving. Then

48:45

you've got an agency that doesn't have a lot

48:47

of resources that just didn't

48:49

follow up on it. Then you've got

48:51

an assisting agency that comes in and

48:54

they don't generally work this kind of

48:56

case. They come in

48:58

and we're years and years and years

49:00

down the road and a family still

49:03

doesn't have answers. And

49:05

coupled with, as I mentioned earlier,

49:07

you can't close the case if

49:10

you got a house here and you didn't check with this

49:12

neighbor and you didn't check with that neighbor. They

49:14

are leads that were just not followed from

49:17

the beginning. Well, I think that

49:19

it hurt. I want

49:21

to hear your opinion, I know Liz does, on

49:24

the highway department releasing

49:26

the file in 2021 like

49:28

that when Sled came

49:31

in and took it over. It

49:33

did extreme damage, I think, to

49:35

the investigation because it

49:37

had a tendency, I think, to chill people who

49:40

may have come forward. Obviously, the

49:43

myrtle's name made people more

49:45

reluctant to talk if they

49:47

had knowledge or they

49:50

heard rumors. And then there

49:52

were certain news agencies that published

49:54

a lot of what

49:56

was in those files in a way that I

49:58

think it hurt. investigation.

50:01

I'm interested to hear from Liz on that. I'm interested

50:03

to hear from you on that. Certainly,

50:06

E.B. You want to keep the

50:08

public informed, but like

50:10

I said, some were great witnesses.

50:12

Some of this information is great,

50:14

as with any investigation, but

50:16

then you've got some people that just

50:18

make up stuff or they

50:21

don't remember it correctly. When

50:23

you put that information out

50:25

there, it's like a false confession.

50:28

We say, well, I would never

50:30

falsely confess to so-and-so, but it

50:32

happens a lot. These people take

50:34

a little bit of facts and

50:36

then they take their

50:38

opinions and their perceptions and they roll

50:40

it up in one and then it

50:42

sends you down, sends the investigators down

50:44

another rabbit hole. It

50:47

creates another hundred conspiracy

50:49

theories, rumors, innuendo, and

50:52

these men and women have to get through

50:55

all that. They've got to rake through that

50:57

and peel it back, peel that onion

50:59

back, find a little piece, and

51:02

it just makes it incredibly difficult,

51:04

probably as difficult as tempers making

51:07

you put something down in a report

51:09

like, I asked a

51:11

pathologist why this was a

51:13

hit and run, and she said because he was found

51:15

in the road. That should

51:18

have been

51:20

a conversation, period. Calm

51:22

down, everybody get back together. Doc,

51:25

can you explain to me what led

51:27

you to that conclusion? Well,

51:30

Trooper, can you tell me what makes

51:32

you believe X, Y, and Z? You've

51:35

got to remember the victim, and I believe some tempers

51:37

here messed up the

51:40

memory of the victim. It left a family

51:42

hurting for a long time, still hurting. And

51:45

then you have people feeding into

51:47

these conspiracy theories and it's just

51:50

the biggest evil

51:52

when it comes to investigating someone's

51:55

cause and manner of death. Liz,

51:57

Do you think it really hurt the release of that?

52:00

While at her where we are. Yes,

52:02

yeah, I mean I am still very confused

52:04

as to why it was released in the

52:06

first place because it's an open investigation that

52:09

you know that didn't make any sense to

52:11

me. As. Somebody who has worked

52:13

in the fourteenth Circuit for more than

52:15

twenty years. Or about twenty years. I

52:17

guess it was. Be. No goods that

52:19

it's Am not a conspiracy theorists, I just I.

52:21

You know, I think that too many people talk.

52:24

I don't I think it's very difficult to keep

52:26

a secret. But. It is hard

52:28

to understand some of the decisions that

52:30

get made, especially in the course the

52:32

Stevens case. So why did that? Why

52:34

did that get released? I think he

52:36

said it Eric I think is it

52:38

it quiet witnesses at quiet people who

52:41

might have information because suddenly you have

52:43

people who through no fault of their

52:45

own. Their their statements to police

52:47

are now right there for everyone to see. They

52:49

can see that so and so talk to the

52:51

place in this is what they said So and

52:54

so talked in. This is what they said and

52:56

now look at what's happening to them behind the

52:58

scenes with their. You. Know a within

53:00

that social framework of New Hampshire County

53:02

specifically said that bothered me. I think

53:05

about to the tempers flaring thing and

53:07

you can either just be hot heads

53:09

right people that are doubling down on

53:11

their opinion. Or to be investigators

53:14

who are frustrated because they feel like

53:16

they are being hampered ah at

53:18

a different turns. And it could

53:20

be something not. There. Used

53:22

to. And. I stayed out with

53:24

experience. I say that. In. Knowing

53:26

so many people in law enforcement in

53:29

the fourteen circuit who has had the

53:31

wall put down in front of them

53:33

or has had something made more difficult

53:35

for them. By I'm you know the

53:38

nature of the case or or who might be

53:40

involved, who might not be involved that kind of

53:42

thing. So. That's. Why? You know you

53:44

have these vacuums in the information easy? sort of

53:46

fill it with what you know and what I

53:48

know from working in the fourteenth as a journalist

53:50

for so long. Is. That there

53:52

there is that notion that there's you

53:54

know don't want to use the term

53:56

obstruction of Justice is in the. legal

53:59

way but where there is obstruction

54:01

of justice in maybe the

54:04

more social way, the more cultural way.

54:07

So that's something that's well-known. It was well-known the

54:09

entire time I worked at the newspaper and that's

54:11

why I can't say for sure, is

54:14

this the trooper

54:16

get mad at Dr. Presnell because he's

54:18

just being a jerk or was

54:21

this a frustration that he

54:23

had because of other elements

54:25

of the investigation that just...

54:28

You're referring to Officer Moore? I'm talking about Officer Moore.

54:30

Yeah. Is that something that

54:32

he was frustrated? He was just frustrated because he

54:35

was seeing certain elements at play. It's

54:38

hard to say. So I just don't know. But...

54:41

Can I add something Liz? Please do. It

54:43

is a battle and I'm so familiar

54:46

with this. We have I-26 and 95 that comes through

54:48

our county. So

54:51

you have several fatalities, undetermined

54:56

fatalities, whether it

54:58

be someone running across the highway or

55:00

someone gets out of a vehicle,

55:03

has an argument with their partner,

55:05

gets out of the vehicle, struck

55:07

by the vehicle, whatever. This

55:09

is a constant battle because

55:12

HP has one policy and

55:15

then you've got your local law

55:17

enforcement and they're like, it's

55:20

yours. No, it's yours. No, it's yours.

55:22

No, it's yours. This is

55:24

daily in our state. Any

55:27

agency that says this doesn't happen, I

55:30

would venture to say they're being dishonest.

55:33

And I'm not even saying it's

55:35

wrong because everyone has their lane,

55:38

no pun intended, their lane to be in.

55:41

Here's what I tell my folks and we

55:43

had a very capable, we have a very

55:45

capable crime scene unit here in Orangeburg. I

55:48

tell them, we are going to work it.

55:51

Someone has to work it. We

55:54

are going to work it until we

55:56

determine, someone determines any of the

55:58

hours. But we're

56:00

going to work it. We're not going to

56:02

lose that evidence. We're going

56:04

to document it as best we can. In

56:07

a perfect world, the two agencies would have

56:09

worked it together. But

56:11

unfortunately, that's not the way it happens.

56:14

And you're also hindered by the

56:16

autopsy. When I

56:18

first started crime scenes, you may have a

56:21

bad call this morning and you

56:23

may have autopsy this afternoon. It's

56:25

not like that anymore. COVID

56:27

and, you know, it's not the numbers because

56:30

believe it or not, the numbers have not

56:32

increased that much. It may be

56:34

the help. But COVID, since

56:36

COVID now, it might be two,

56:38

three, four, I have seen five

56:40

days after a critical incident

56:42

where you can even get an autopsy.

56:44

Think of all the evidence that's lost

56:47

on that road when

56:49

you probably have, it's a rural

56:51

road, but let's just say for

56:54

argument purposes, 10,000 vehicles a day

56:56

ride down that road and you

56:59

two or three days late, you're

57:01

talking about 30,000 vehicles have

57:03

now traversed that road. You got Lockhart's

57:05

exchange principle. They're bringing something into the

57:07

scene and they're taking something out of

57:10

the scene. So you're just by default,

57:12

you're behind the eight ball at that

57:14

point in time. And

57:16

in a perfect world, the two agencies would work

57:19

it together. But in my county, when

57:21

I carried a badge, someone was

57:23

going to work it. Someone's going to document

57:25

it because that family depends on it. Well,

57:29

we've deferred to Sled. We've

57:31

given them your report. We've

57:33

given them the second autopsy

57:35

and we've let them

57:38

do their job. Now, admittedly, on

57:40

our side, on Luna Shark's

57:43

side, we're frustrated. Sandy is

57:45

frustrated. It's almost a year

57:47

since Sled announced that

57:50

it was a homicide. I

57:52

got involved because I just wanted to

57:54

get answers for Sandy. The woman deserves

57:56

answers as a mother of what happened

57:58

to her son. You know, she's

58:01

not a rabid victim where she says, this person's

58:03

got to get prosecuted and I want this or

58:05

that. She just wants peace

58:07

and answers. Do you think, and

58:10

I'm going to put you on the spot, do

58:12

you think that answers will be given by Sled?

58:15

And do you think there is a possibility

58:17

that they ultimately will find out who did

58:19

it? In my heart of

58:21

hearts, I believe they

58:23

will, E.B. I don't know if the

58:26

time and distance since

58:28

the incident will ever lead

58:30

to a prosecution. I'm

58:33

hoping and I'm praying because I've seen a lot

58:35

colder cases than this, you know, go through the

58:37

courts. But I have to put,

58:39

and I'm going to say this, and

58:42

I hope you don't hit me in the head with a brick next

58:44

time you see me. This is

58:46

not the kind of case Sled

58:48

works. I

58:50

mean, the investigatory part, yes,

58:53

we didn't work vehicle

58:56

crashes. We didn't work vehicle versus

58:58

pedestrian unless it was intentional. We

59:00

don't know. That's

59:03

still a part of this equation we don't

59:05

know, and they were brought in on

59:08

the tail end of it. Right. So

59:11

I'm not pointing the finger at Sled. Right.

59:14

I definitely would tell you if I think it was something

59:16

they dropped the ball on. I'm

59:18

not pointing the finger at anyone, but

59:20

I'm pointing the finger at everyone. This

59:23

was missed opportunity

59:26

for Sandy. This was

59:28

definitely missed to let Stephen

59:31

rest. And I just

59:33

think it was the perfect storm in a

59:35

negative way that

59:37

caused this to, you know, go to

59:39

the wayside. But I do believe Sled

59:41

will ultimately come up with the answer.

59:43

I'm praying they do. They will

59:46

come up with the answer. I do know that they're

59:48

awful, awful secretive. We don't

59:51

know what has happened or E.B. has probably

59:53

got better ways of knowing than I do

59:56

through the attorney world. But you just

59:58

don't ever know. And

1:00:01

the team at the AG's office, I've met

1:00:03

them now, I've worked with them. I

1:00:06

know that if there's a possibility, Ms. Sandy and

1:00:08

her family are going to get answers. And

1:00:11

I'm here to do whatever part I can do

1:00:13

to help. I think it's

1:00:16

reckless to name suspects. I

1:00:18

think it's reckless to name anybody because

1:00:20

of the chilling effect that Liz talked

1:00:22

about. But I think that there are

1:00:25

six people, five to seven, six people

1:00:27

that know what happened

1:00:29

or know of something

1:00:31

that happened. Not that they are

1:00:33

the suspect that did it. They either

1:00:35

heard something or they were there.

1:00:38

There's enough people that know it. You know,

1:00:40

two people can never keep a secret. You

1:00:43

know, one person, it's even hard enough not

1:00:45

to give themselves away. And, you

1:00:47

know, there's not enough questions being

1:00:49

asked. Who knows what? Everybody's

1:00:52

looking for the suspect, but I

1:00:54

think they need to refocus on who knows

1:00:56

what. I mean, your thoughts on that, Liz?

1:00:59

I think we need to remember

1:01:01

that the reason Sled has this

1:01:03

case is allegedly because of information

1:01:05

that they gleaned in the murder

1:01:07

case, the murders case. So

1:01:09

it's not necessarily, you know, that they

1:01:12

were – they haven't interjected themselves for

1:01:14

no good reason. I don't think it's

1:01:16

optics. I don't think it's – you

1:01:18

know, I think that we lose

1:01:21

sight of that, that there was

1:01:23

an ignition point somewhere in the

1:01:25

summer of 2021 that made them

1:01:27

decide, we're going to look at this too. Now,

1:01:30

it has that panned out. You know, like you said,

1:01:33

their secret, we do not know. But

1:01:36

like you said, I mean, the farther

1:01:38

we get away from the incident itself,

1:01:41

we hang on to every

1:01:43

piece, like every fact or

1:01:45

every statement made.

1:01:48

Hoping to be able to parse that and figure

1:01:51

out, okay, so for instance, the family says that

1:01:53

he wouldn't have walked in the middle of the

1:01:55

road. I think that still stands.

1:01:57

I think that there's a difference between walking

1:01:59

through the – Woodland and a walking on the side

1:02:01

of the road where you know you're going to be

1:02:03

safer says walking in the dead center of the road

1:02:05

right. So even though we know that

1:02:07

okay he he the wasn't an alternate path

1:02:09

for see been to have taken he took

1:02:11

the one that made the most sense that

1:02:13

night as I write like a d took

1:02:15

the path that made. The. Most sense

1:02:17

if the car it's enough for her is

1:02:19

the story is the car ran out of

1:02:21

gas. we don't even know that fact. We

1:02:24

don't know that it ran out of gas

1:02:26

because we'd know when look to see. That.

1:02:28

It had no gas and it right It was

1:02:30

just the fact that the gas cap with off.

1:02:33

And the car wouldn't start. Which the

1:02:35

you know? they checked the battery. they saw that that

1:02:37

was connected. So. At. Any rate, I.

1:02:39

Think what happens is we just start to hold on

1:02:42

to every sounds, hoping that's going to be the one

1:02:44

that sort of swings us in the right direction. To.

1:02:46

Getting those answers but I think

1:02:48

ultimately comes down to people talking

1:02:50

and. That. Diet quieted

1:02:53

because the. Highway. Patrol Release

1:02:55

the An. So

1:02:57

you know it's it. Really did

1:02:59

a disservice to the investigation itself

1:03:01

and. I again I don't have a

1:03:04

good reason why they would have. And and as

1:03:06

a journalist who wants to see more information put

1:03:08

out there than last. Year I get

1:03:10

I know how important is to keep. Open.

1:03:13

Investigations A secret until you have

1:03:15

air. It's a quiet until you

1:03:17

have. All. The socks. And here you're

1:03:19

pretty certain that you he has enough reason

1:03:21

to arrest somebody, Enough reason to charge somebody

1:03:23

And and they just didn't do that and

1:03:25

I don't have an explanation. I don't know

1:03:27

that the the mean you have an explanation

1:03:29

for that are certain cities. Have you heard

1:03:31

why they released it. Ah

1:03:34

have laws. I do

1:03:36

believe like Iirc said, I

1:03:38

do believe they have names from the

1:03:40

beginning. They have

1:03:43

people with information. And

1:03:46

he goes back to courses

1:03:48

was a close. But. He

1:03:50

goes back to where I started with the

1:03:52

day. You. T and not. Close.

1:03:55

Or do count of case. If

1:03:57

you have a talk to the neighbors. In

1:04:00

here. When I say neighbors, I'm talking

1:04:02

about those names. That. Air

1:04:05

mention that have existed since

1:04:07

very early on in this

1:04:09

investigation. You've. Got

1:04:11

to exalt that. and those

1:04:14

folks. If they don't have

1:04:16

answers, they have information. And

1:04:19

you know whether they've been interviewed,

1:04:21

Whether the he'd been interrogated, Whether

1:04:23

they'd been put on polygraph? I

1:04:25

don't know. Bought. All That's

1:04:27

where that's where I would take it. At

1:04:30

this point I am to. All.

1:04:32

Certainty with Katie Kinsey. But to

1:04:34

a reasonable degree of scientific certainty.

1:04:37

I know what happens is Steven.

1:04:39

And I believe my opinion

1:04:41

has been verified by medical

1:04:44

professionals maybe not verbatim. word

1:04:46

for word by. Pretty.

1:04:48

Much you know generalized what

1:04:50

happened to Stephen. Now.

1:04:52

If someone who's conducting the criminal

1:04:55

part of this investigation thinks

1:04:57

I'm wrong, the other professionals around.

1:04:59

The and. Go. Out and do

1:05:02

it your way and enlist. Come

1:05:04

up with it and show me

1:05:06

But don't be a scale. Be

1:05:08

information that was neglected in the

1:05:10

first of this investigation Know continue

1:05:12

to discount that in price. Of

1:05:15

how. Day

1:05:17

want is just got passed around

1:05:19

and it just got discounted. And

1:05:21

as time you know increases

1:05:23

com and distance. As

1:05:25

time increases distance from you know

1:05:28

a result is is also going

1:05:30

to increase you. Would set in a

1:05:32

podcast that there were a little pink

1:05:34

squares that media had. Painted. On

1:05:36

the ground near where they start, Stevens thought he

1:05:38

had been sound. What was that? I didn't I'd

1:05:41

never heard that. Vs. For.

1:05:44

You know, filming purposes they went

1:05:46

out to where they believe Stephen

1:05:48

had been located in they use

1:05:50

mark in paid and painted the

1:05:52

squares of to me that was

1:05:55

terribly offensive. To me

1:05:57

and not even. Talk

1:05:59

about Methane. In our family. To.

1:06:01

Go that route in see those big

1:06:03

pink squares out in the road every

1:06:05

day. So. When I went

1:06:08

down I use some software a sepia

1:06:10

software and I said this is where

1:06:12

and I was within a couple inches

1:06:14

of were Stephen came to rest in

1:06:17

the hallway. And. Is do with

1:06:19

that way. I wouldn't wanna pay a

1:06:21

square for. Sandy. And her family

1:06:23

to have to come through. they are but some

1:06:25

people didn't care. You know what the ah what

1:06:28

the effect of that was gonna be? It was

1:06:30

not from the original investigation, it was from the

1:06:32

highway patrol. That. Pain and the

1:06:34

been wore off and actually the

1:06:36

road has worn quite a bit.

1:06:39

Since. The and but all. I

1:06:41

guess for the shock value you know you

1:06:43

had some some media of people go out

1:06:46

the impact those players are fi on that

1:06:48

terribly offensive. Basically the squares way to

1:06:50

represent the body. Yes, Ma'am

1:06:52

the approximate location and I will. I

1:06:54

will say this none of the media

1:06:57

that I accompanied out there did that

1:06:59

so I don't know what network did

1:07:01

it. Bara. That. Can hurt hurt me?

1:07:03

Part my heart a little bit that it know

1:07:06

Stephen and I haven't met Sandy. On

1:07:08

I just know with appear that would have that would

1:07:10

have told me up the. Second, Question A high

1:07:12

to blaze something that Mandy and I

1:07:14

hadn't told early on by and as

1:07:16

a skater so looked over the evidence

1:07:18

that we had been given in twenty

1:07:20

nine pm which was they said they'll

1:07:23

is the unredacted case file. And

1:07:25

one of the things that he had

1:07:27

mentioned to us was that. You

1:07:29

know the idea see them being moved from Michigan

1:07:31

of being harmed in one location and move to

1:07:33

the said his and like his body being dumped

1:07:35

that. One. Is the pieces as as

1:07:38

as the indications that that was not the case

1:07:40

is that there was a not a trail of

1:07:42

blood. I mean he is the word spotter even

1:07:44

though I know people are gonna. Wanna cracked

1:07:46

me than talking about the gravity. the

1:07:48

force of gravity bringing the blood down

1:07:50

From see this money on sale country?

1:07:53

There isn't something that shows like maybe and being

1:07:55

taken from a car, What have you? but. Does.

1:07:57

It still in your mind. You still

1:07:59

see. Could you see where the pool

1:08:01

of blood covered? That were? Maybe the

1:08:04

injury? Or. You is it is. It's do

1:08:06

you think it was so much blood that it wouldn't

1:08:08

have been able. To like what with meet

1:08:10

your determination there. Now you

1:08:12

won't lose, you've only got and you'd

1:08:14

also have signing of them medical legal

1:08:16

death investigators so I'm know a lot

1:08:19

about the corner and the death investigation

1:08:21

bar. you only get some we leaders

1:08:23

of blood in your body with. A

1:08:27

quantity I look equality which would be

1:08:29

consistent with what seen your body, what's

1:08:31

the and you know of a T?

1:08:33

It's even size. But. The main

1:08:36

thing I look at what's the difference in our t.

1:08:38

In the. If.

1:08:41

You fill your glass, Or.

1:08:43

To the lid. And

1:08:45

you try to move it, What happens?

1:08:47

You're gonna spill it, but it's all

1:08:50

gonna go the same direction because it

1:08:52

follows gravity As you say it, With.

1:08:55

Is physically impossible, even with

1:08:57

a gurney. To. Move

1:08:59

A body. That is

1:09:01

free flowing or you know the hearts

1:09:03

are. He starts with not gushing blood.

1:09:06

It's not pumping anymore but is sealed

1:09:08

off a drain from the injuries. That.

1:09:10

Was a devastating injury to

1:09:12

Stephen. There's no way to

1:09:15

move. See. Been without

1:09:17

saying that the wrecks and and even

1:09:19

if you ride it again and the

1:09:21

blood changes in goes back down to

1:09:23

gravity it still won't leave a mark

1:09:25

it you even on black black the

1:09:28

interior something black colored you can still

1:09:30

see those protein from that blood. And.

1:09:32

When I opened up those photos, Number.

1:09:35

One, you got the quantity. You've.

1:09:37

Got all the blood gone one

1:09:39

direction. And you got X

1:09:42

rated blood on Stevens? See him. That.

1:09:44

Tells me he was a move that

1:09:46

tells me it did happen and then you

1:09:49

have the inconsistency. You. Know know road

1:09:51

rash. Will. He be can attest

1:09:53

to the as he had road rash the

1:09:55

any has rogue rationale. You. Know

1:09:57

the defensive wounds. Always fear.

1:10:00

It didn't have any the enemy.now so

1:10:02

I mean you got things that have

1:10:04

evolved over time. A

1:10:06

new know of I believe

1:10:08

his divinity or. Semen.

1:10:11

Was an incredible shape. His

1:10:13

remains were an incredible shape.

1:10:16

When. You know, He's

1:10:18

not usually like that about a couple.

1:10:20

It's generally not like that. So I

1:10:23

mean I think it's divine intervention. The

1:10:25

have was shot and down on us.

1:10:27

Trying to give us the evidence we

1:10:29

need is an hour and I'm sure

1:10:31

in my heart we're not talking about

1:10:33

evil Knievel. Like. We

1:10:35

see, You know, Going. Down the

1:10:37

highway car we. That's not what happened

1:10:40

here. That's not what

1:10:42

happened your time. I had a hard,

1:10:44

hard impact. Immediate. Just

1:10:46

like go along more. Pushes.

1:10:49

Down a large piece of grass

1:10:52

it.and put it first. It just

1:10:54

pushes it. nail. But. Really,

1:10:56

really hard And therefore that's what

1:10:58

that was my opinion. And.

1:11:00

The answer Only I believe that was

1:11:02

verified. By. Other medical

1:11:05

professionals. Right? Because people of

1:11:07

people have said well you know he

1:11:09

was killed. He know

1:11:11

with some kind of instrument. At

1:11:14

the car. He was put in a

1:11:16

vehicle and them when he was dumped out. The.

1:11:19

You know when his head hit. That's. When

1:11:21

the mood opened up in the bleeding

1:11:23

happened that you know I've heard that

1:11:25

story. I've never heard that one. I've

1:11:27

heard that he was killed that up

1:11:29

for a party and transport and transported

1:11:31

from there, but never at the car.

1:11:33

That's interesting. But the thing when I

1:11:35

was saying was, you know if the

1:11:37

blood didn't come out until he was

1:11:40

not perfectly on the ground And that's

1:11:42

not the case, right? Doctor Kinsey? No

1:11:44

sir, not at all. Think.

1:11:46

About it. Just dropping

1:11:49

someone's he had on the pavement would

1:11:51

not do this damage. This

1:11:53

is our and we've a woman from

1:11:55

up with the comparison cause it's disrespectful.

1:11:58

But. This is. Major

1:12:00

major damage real fast,

1:12:02

real hard. And.

1:12:05

Just a couple inches of actually

1:12:07

sliding on the pavement. I

1:12:10

mean is this is Diana and just.

1:12:12

slight. Movement on the pavement and

1:12:14

I don't believe you can replicate it

1:12:17

with out there being some evidence of

1:12:19

either the person me and move or

1:12:21

some evidence of unemployment. You'd

1:12:24

have to come off about twenty foot

1:12:26

building. To. Do this kind

1:12:28

of damage to your head. You

1:12:30

know, on the pavement. but a

1:12:32

vehicle traveling really really fast really

1:12:34

really hard would do would immediately.

1:12:37

With something for turning from the

1:12:39

vehicle. Yes, Or unemployment

1:12:42

or something attached to. it's not the

1:12:44

vehicle itself because if a vehicle hits

1:12:46

you. You. Got to impact you get

1:12:48

with a beagle, hit you and then you

1:12:51

got where you impact the vehicle. Here.

1:12:53

We don't have that. We've. Got

1:12:55

one impact here. And.

1:12:57

Then the massive massive actually both of

1:13:00

them would have been would have terminated

1:13:02

lies eventually but the massive damage is

1:13:04

in the back to the he it.

1:13:07

When. It hit the pavement insulin. And

1:13:10

I didn't find look trust me li

1:13:12

as I looked for reasons. To.

1:13:15

Eggs could be as. A solo,

1:13:17

not one shred of evidence that

1:13:19

he was transported. They are that

1:13:21

it happened somewhere else. That.

1:13:24

Stephen did not leave for

1:13:26

a little while afterwards. He

1:13:28

definitely did not expire immediately.

1:13:31

You. Know that I'm sure of. Now.

1:13:33

"Hopefully some of those other things,

1:13:35

any investigation we spoke about, hopefully

1:13:37

they can peel that skyn back

1:13:40

and find answers" I. Have

1:13:42

no doubt in my mind what so

1:13:44

ever. What? Happened to see. Well.

1:13:48

i think we could sit here and talk

1:13:50

to you all day just like you said

1:13:52

to or the person who bought the conversation

1:13:54

with doctor can he can see we could

1:13:56

spend all day it is tremendously on or

1:13:58

did you would us your

1:14:00

time like this and your insight and

1:14:03

you know it was just captivating from start

1:14:05

to finish. Well

1:14:07

thank you so much Dr. Kinsey it's a pleasure to talk to

1:14:10

you and I would like to close

1:14:12

this out just because I think it's so unusual for

1:14:14

an expert witness to come off the stand and have

1:14:16

so many fans. Well Liz

1:14:18

I don't like to call them fans because I

1:14:20

didn't start this for that purpose. I like to

1:14:23

call them supporters and I've got

1:14:25

99.9 percent

1:14:27

man people have been wonderful. I

1:14:29

wanted growing up I always wanted

1:14:31

to be an action figure. I

1:14:34

ended up being a baby doll but

1:14:36

I love Miss Stephanie and her family

1:14:38

they have been phenomenal. I can't even

1:14:40

name names because it's too many it's

1:14:42

actually too many and I've

1:14:45

got so many wonderful clients. God

1:14:47

has been good and life is good

1:14:49

and I'm gonna ride it as long

1:14:51

as I can ride it when the

1:14:53

roller coaster is over then we'll do

1:14:55

something else. Don't change Dr. Kinsey we

1:14:57

love you just the way you are

1:14:59

as Billy Joel says. Without cups down.

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